So glad the comments on the other guy's video sent me here. I was doing mental gymnastics trying to figure out how to add another 40g of protein to my daily intake.
Menno, you are a light of clarity amongst influence-based histeria and posturing, thank you so much. I have long suspected that people are promoting way too high of a protein intake and it is my belief that it really makes a lot of people feel inferior for not consuming outrageous amounts of it. Also love how clearly you outlined the exceptions, as so many people use them as the rule, not as the nuance they are! Kudos, sir!
Coming back here to rewatch after Dr. Mike and Dr. Wolf dropped the video about this on the RP channel and said 1.3g/pound, or I think even 3g/kg was mentioned. Not being dogmatic, but what has been said here makes more sense to me on average.
most of the fitness phd's are actually just stupid people. not tryna be an ass but like wtf are they doing during their [hd's for them to so humongously misinterpret articles and lack the ability to understand basic research methodology. some of them need to get out of academia
whats crazy is that Renaissance Periodization just uploaded a 17min video of this outdated 2020 study, even falsely claming it was the 2022 study, saying you need 3.1kg/kg/BW now everyones gonna be confused
Yeah I usually like their videos but they must’ve been high doing that video😂 I did see Mike was blinking a lot, probably just a side effect of the roids tho
I ran over here after watching that vid. Partly glad that I don't have to start shoveling down 100% more protein every day, partly disappointed that doing so won't give me 40% more gains.
@@KurumaDesigns I like Dr. Mike, absolutely love his videos and respect his education, but I think the fact he's really trying to push out a lot of content, especially now,lets big mistakes like this slip and not have proper quality checks as a consequence. I also really wish he would put his citations and references in his descriptions or at the end of his slides.
I’m not in exercise science but it’s scary how many times I’ve had to tell my dissertation committee that I can’t simply control for pre-existing group differences on a confounding variable by making it a covariate. I’ve literally had to send them papers from statisticians that are basically shouting at scientists to stop doing this, because they thought I was just being stubborn.
Can you share some of that literature? My understanding is that controlling by adding a covariate with pre-existing group differences should be fine as long as they are "upstream" from the treatment and outcomes. In the case of the 2020 study, weight change was downstream from both treatment and outcome, which makes it a bad covariate. Is this what you mean or do you mean something else?
People need to understand that science is performed by the same kinds of people you walk past on the street. We _hope_ that they are good at their job, but... well, it's complicated. 😄
Milo should watch this video and respond in kind, or have a video where he debates menno in person, and we as the audience can decide who presents a better case. This is how good faith scientific discussion is supposed to work and is working well!
Looking at the graph at 8:35, I really do not think that this extremely scattered data is sufficient to say that there is a limit at 1,6g/kg. This only works if you apply the prior "there must be a limit and the underlying true data is a linear increase with a certain setpoint at which it becomes constant" And even if you do, the 95% confidence interval in the study, indicated by the arrow , ends at 2,2g/kg, which is only exceeded by 2 studies that both are above the fit line. With how scattered the data is, you can very well just fit a linear increase to it or, if you have theoretical model assumptions that would yield I. E. a square root or logarithmic increase, for those. Also this throws all the studies together, I would really like to see the same graph only including the studies in trained individuals who already have significant muscle mass,since it's likely that they benefit from this while newbies don't. A reverse approach to this which I would be interested in is asking trying to find people at the gym who go there at similar frequency and have been for a similar amount of time and then plot their fat free mass over protein intake per pound over the past year. Of course this relies on self reporting and has other confounding issues, but it would quickly give a lot of data. Maybe just do it with bodybuilders (natural) after competition, since they probably all tracked their macros precisely. Would be very interesting to see if there are any at all that consume less than 1,5g/kg and also since this is basically peak trained, to see whether there is still a positive relationship between ffm and intake at those levels. Even if you don't believe trained individuals need more and think that the breakpoint analysis itself is sensible, I would at least eat the 2,2 grams/kg upper confidence limit . Additional variation here might also be due to inherent genetic differences, I. E. one person has a higher ceiling than another, similar to how some people don't respond to creatine etc.
You can fit whatever line you want, but if you used a straight line the data would be extremely underfitted. The linear increase + flat line might be slightly oversimplified, but any decent model would show something similar. It's not really a subjective thing.
@@SphericalPenguinthe arrow below the figure indicates the 95 percent confidence interval, which is between 1.03 to 2.20 g/protein. So they even acknowledge themselves that the error is very high using this fit. Particularly the 2.2 g boundary includes almost all studies and the only 2 data points beyond 2,2 g/kg are actually above the fit line , so I would be very doubtful to include an upper limit from this data and if so, at least use the 2,2g/protein figure to be on the somewhat safe side ( I wouldnt step in a plane with a 2,5% chance of failing, but for workouts this is acceptable). Still also my point about distinguishing between trained and untrained individuals in this graph holds.
@@JL2579 Going purely by the data (which is probably just noise/variance), there would be a slight downwards trend from about 1.6g/kg to 2.2g/kg with a better fitting line (note that better doesn't mean actually better, just that it fits closer to the data). Given that, it's hard to believe there might be a sudden increase from beyond 2.2g/kg. What we know with almost certainty is that MPS scales dramatically with higher protein at first and then starts to slow down, it doesn't make sense that it would start to slow down and then start to pick up again. Yes, more high quality studies with specific populations are always welcome, but it would take a long time to compile enough studies to overturn this 1.6g/kg number.
Been watching some of your videos and honestly your one of the better smaller/newer fitness youtubers I have seen on youtube. Just wanted to give my feedback.
This is a great video. I really appreciate that Meno went through the problems and limitations of the newer meta-analysis and explained just why the results aren’t as reliable for drawing significant conclusions. It would be easy to just say, “Well, I’m an author of a conflicting study and an expert with a PhD so trust me bro” but Meno went above and beyond. Many scientists and educators could learn from him
Fantastic analysis. We need more analyses like this. Protein needs seem to depend on numerous factors, including how hard and long you train, age, what kind of protein you eat, etc.
Low science literacy: "Bro, protein" Some science literacy: "Brother, this single study changes everything." High science literacy: "Bro, protein, but all these studies, it is nuanced."
It gets very tiresome at progressively lower calorie goals. I'm on 1700 and 185g at the moment. 2% yoghurt mixed with whey powder, shouldn't work but it mixes down super smooth and you can throw some berries in it for almost no calorie cost.
I’d say get ready to have worse results following the lower protein intake advice. You can look at this study or that study, but in real life, higher protein is going to result in your body composition being leaner and more muscular.
@@TheSpainy my personal results were far better with high protein. Eating about 200g at 140 lb. body weight for example. It helps with satiety, thermic effect, and staying lean whether bulking or cutting.
Glad you addressed this Menno. I was thinking about upping my protein in my next bulk, because of the “new” evidence for it. Will stick to my .7g/lb thanks to you. Saves me lots of money, absolute life saver.
Your content is fantastic. Your frequent references to studies, with attachments, is done by only a few of your colleagues. Would you please consider making a video on protein recommendations for men on PEDs? Thanks so much, Gray
Menno, thank you very much for clarifying the issue. I was confused a little hearing recently that consuming more than 1,6 g per kg was advisable. You provided much needed information. It's much appreciated
How do you know your correction is correct? It probably is but when the experts get it wrong mixing it up (g/lb g/kg) in a video what chance do we have.
Your friend Milo was preaching 3.0g per kilo of weight as it can mean more gains upto 55%. Thank you for clearing things. I find it hard to even hit 1.6g per kg. I didnt want to feel bad about missing out on even more gains.
All I know is when I have 0.8 grams per pound of protein, I don't grow as well or get nearly the results I get at 1.2 gram per pound of protein. I've spent a lot of time trying different protein ratios at the lower ones don't work for me. Lower protein might work great for the cohorts in those studies, but I'm not wasting my effort on lower protein.
No front and MAYBE you are right, but I can't take people seriously if they make claims like these. Like are you really telling us that you tried 0.8g for a longer time span like 6 months did a DEXA before and after, didn't change any other variable in your nutrition, recovery and training, then did the same thing again with a higher protein intake and measured and calculated the difference? Very unlikely in my opinion. Also muscle growth is non linear so whatever you tried first has a bias to build more muscle because the more you have the less you build.
Sounds like to me you just weren't eating enough carbs. Carbs are "protein sparing" and your body prefers to store dietary fat rather than burn it if it can. When you eat more protein than your body needs for repair replacement and growth it literally just burns it like a carb. So I believe you that eating more protein gave you better results. For some reason a lot of ppl are afraid of carbs. So when they up their protein they "feel better". Just eat the damn carbs. And when I say carbs I'm not talking about candy and cookies. I'm talking oatmeal rice potatoes ect.
Thank you for diving into the details of this! I've now heard this meta-analysis mentioned a few places but no one bothered to really go into any details, only the results. This is much more helpful :)
Thanks Menno for the info! I'm wondering why protein intake is based on bodyweight instead of fat free mass? Sounds weird to me that a big belly requires any protein intake. It will also save a lot of chicken lives.
There's still quite a few coaches and lifters that have experimented with high amounts of protein and found it beneficial. I still aim for 2g/kg to be in the middle ground. Often that ends up being closer to the truth.
@7:40 I was about to say this is a typo and should be "inflection point", but apparently "inflexion point" has been used in the past in legitimate mathematics. Your search results will be better if you look for stuff using the "inflection" spelling, though.
Excellent, as usual. I will point out that there is another group and that is elderly lifters. Yes, Arnold is 'elderly' now and he has recently made a significant paradigm shift in his protocols. I digress. I would like to see a discussion by Menno on this group (70+) as our dynamics are a bit different from the kids, and yes, a 40 YO is a 'kid' to a septuagenarian 😉.
Yesterday at the work Xmas-do, there was a buffet and I ate mostly meats - sausage, broiled chicken, minute steaks, broiled salmon. According to my Fitbit data (estimated weights of the meats), I ate 210g of protein. I'm a tubby 90kg recently returned to exercising. So that's 2.3g/Kg. It was not easy and hoboy was my heart rate elevated for hours processing so much!
The point about guys on gear is spot on. My best gains came when I took 750 mg test per week and 300 grams of protein per day plus lots of training volume. When I tried the same cycle later with less protein and training volume, the results were not even close.
I love how pissed of that study made you. The reason I follow you is because of your neutral approach. And this was just an awesome reminder why to keep watching your videos.
thank you, Menno -that was helpful! 😊 you mentioned at the end that vegans might need higher protein intake. Are there reliable studies which could give a reference to how much higher this might be?
Can you do an updated video on building muscle in a deficit and how it compares to maintenance? Eg. can we predict how much impact a 200 deficit will have compared to maintenance etc.
Thank you, helpful summary. The fourth group is older people due to poorer absorption of protein? It would be really helpful to have a better understanding of how much more and age groups ....
Might be worth remembering Milo is a relatively new youtuber and wants to make a name for himself - look at the clickbaity way he advertises his videos and the dogmatic, arrogant approach he displays in his videos. Also someone mentioned this on reddit about the study he lauds- "One thing forgot to mention is that 5 of the 7 researchers who conducted these studies are employees of Meiji Corporation, one of Japan's largest dairy & food manufacturers including owning Japan's most popular protein brand (SAVAS). Therefore there is a potential conflict of interest"
12:02 1.6-1.8g/kg total bodyweight. How can this be? So if you are 200lb (91kg)and 30% bodyfat you should consume the same protein as if you are 200lb and 10% bodyfat????? Can this be correct?
Of course, it refers to body weight for a person with a relatively reasonable body fat percentage. So, if you weigh 90 kg with 30% body fat, you can calculate it, for example, using the formula height minus 100 (in centimeters). Alternatively, you can subtract 30% from 90, then add 15%.
Somehow i always knew it just by doing different stuff every year. I'm 210lbs at 6'3 so for me 210g used to be the go to protein amount. Some phases i decided to 140gr and i still didn't lose any gains or noticed anything that different. I still like to do 1g/lbs bodyweight cause it is so simple to do and to keep as a habit, but the effect of it is minimal if your sleep, diet, and training is of good quality.
Menno I am shocked you didn't even mention that at least half of that should be from quality sources and not bread. You only vaguely touched on that for vegans lol. But, thanks, I experimented for a couple of months and .64 - .70 does get me recovered for the next workout. Well done!!!
I’m 198 lbs currently, I’ve since switched from 1g/lb to 0.7g/lb for the last 6 weeks and, using the RP Hypertrophy App and tracking my macros using Cronometer, my training volume continues to increase. So I’m data point of 1 in evidence of this
@@NuclayerI am approaching 50, and it seems that if I don’t aim for 0.8g/lb or above that I start to see problems. Could it be my imagination? Possibly. But I’d rather be safe than sorry, especially as age becomes more and more of a factor. Protein isn’t cheap, but a few more grams per day as insurance isn’t going to break the bank.
@ I eat an egg, about 200g of liquid egg whites, and about 25g of whey with my breakfast. Lunch varies, but typically chicken breast or fish (150g+ serving), and the same for dinner. I might throw in a protein bar throughout the day, or Greek yogurt or cottage cheese. Add in the rest of what I eat (vegetables, whole grains), and my daily total is typically about 190-200g of protein intake.
Thanks GOD I don't need to stuff myself to death with protein powder every day to meet these 3g per kg "magic numbers". And don't need to go broke buying it. Just as many other people mentioned I'm a bit confused because I too saw that Milo Wolf's video about this particular research...
Would love a video on protein for people on gear and where you're drawing conclusions that intake might need to be higher, considering studies with people on gear are virtually non-existent.
Very helpful, thank you Menno. Does age make any difference? I keep hearing that older individuals utilize protein less efficiently and need higher consumption for the same benefit.
There is one question that I couldn't find answer anywhere but is very relevant for majority of people: We know what's the protein amount for maximum growth. But what about people who do minimalist training like 5-7 set per muscle group per week. We know they can still have decent gains but will their gains be smaller if they consume let's say 1.2g/kg instead of 1.6-1.8g/kg? Theoretically they do not reach their full growth potential due to lack of stimulus. Do they still need so much protein?
1.6 is very easy to achieve, unless you are extremely overweight (in which case you likely do not need as much). what is the point of reducing the intake if you are already doing insufficient volume other than just making things worse?
@@teddygross7543 1.6 being easy is a relative statement depending on your personal situation and habits. I would definitely enjoy lowering protein amount if it wouldn't affect the results.
@@teddygross7543the point is not stuffing yourself with excessive food? Not everyone enjoys shoving crap in their mouth. If I'm not training like a pro bodybuilder, why would I want to eat like one?
@@davorzdralo8000You misunderstood the point of the video. Manipulating the proportions of macronutritients of meals has nothing to do with increasing the quantity of consumed food and stuffing yourself, in fact quite the opposite as a typical westerner eats 3.540 calories per day, a natural bodybuilder will likely eat LESS than that for the majority of the year.
Thank you for a lot of great videos including this one! :-) I heard an Iron Culture podcast yesterday, where Eric Helms and Eric Trexler discussed this topic. They mentioned that some models found that it's better to base your protein intake on your lean body mass/muscle mass than total weight. What's your take on that?
Another great video ! I have one question , im looking at my first bulk , when calcualting protein do you figure out the end weight you want to get to at the end of your bulk and then find out the protein and use that protein intake or do you step up your protein over time? Thanks
All these studies are controlled but are absolutely not, considering they’re not in a closed setting, and individuals self report. Also none of them seem to account for age of subjects. It’s now well known through the research of Dr. Lehman and Dr. Wolfes studies that older adults have a need for higher protein, 2-3x as much as someone in their 20’s to mid 30’s, for increased protein intake to activate muscle protein synthesis due to age related anabolic resistance even with a proper strength training program.
Good explanation, thanks. Does the amount of protein recommended vary with age? Do I need >2g/kg to compensate for loss of effective utilisation at 55 vs 25? Or is that a myth?
Cannot really wrap my head around that Milo video. I just follow fitness research as a hobby but it seemed pretty obvious that there were going to be some confounding variables involved when doubling the 'optimal'' level of protein found in decades of literature found 55% increase in growth. This is probably what, the single most researched topic in fitness and he thought he discovered a paradigm shift that everyone else missed, and such a massive one? He ended his video saying 'make sure you read actual research instead of staying stuck in the evidence based echo chamber', and it seems like he didn't even read the research closely.
Menno, thanks for the great research! Question: Are there negative life longevity consequences for consuming the amount of daily calories needed to ingest 1.6-1.8g/kg? I understand that a lower calorie diet seems to improve longevity. Or am I wrong?
100 kg * 2g of protein per kilo equals 200 grams. One gram of protein has 4 calories. That is 800 calories. What human being is on an only 800-calorie diet? I easily get 200+ grams of protein daily while cutting on around 2000 cals
We need Milo vs Menno debate on this to stop one of the parties from spreading mis-information. Thankfully people from RP already saw through alot of the mishaps on their video.
That's good to hear. Been eating 180-200 grams per day for a while, but seems like 140ish is already enough. Can drop some calories that way, will drop to 150-170/day.
One thing you did not mention is variance. Are there significant differences from person to person in these studies? I feel like the one size fits all number is only sufficient if it's really the upper limit for every single person on record. Not saying you didn't consider it, just didn't talk about it and it leaves me wondering
I often hear that older lifters need more protein, but never how much more. Are we talking 10% more, twice as much? Or what? No doubt it varies by individual and age, but are there any guidelines?
This is all great. But are there studies to eating protien & carbs in a cycle as you recover because I am a freak of nature at 21 percent body fat at 213lbs female & I have to go with my cravings or I don't recover very fast or very well. After a heavy lift, I crave hard protien for 2 days after & that's largely my diet. Then I crave carbs to refill my muscles for a day & then I can balance out my diet for a few days. I cannot consistently eat a static diet for my sanity or my stomach. If I limit my protien to a static intake, I go bezerk. And when I am craving the fluid & fuel to fill my muscles, it's beyond my control. I am still making gains with this method & I wonder if there is literature to eating in cycles.
I (as well as a few others close to me) noticed a marked improvement in my physique since I have been consuming around 2g/kg, and it is fairly significant, so as much as I trust your judgement, we are not averages, we are individuals and in my specific case, I find slightly higher to be better. (I have tried 1g/kg up to 2g/kg over the years and I have been lifting for 10 years now)
@@abeidiot People who are at the point where they've been training for a decade and know exactly their daily protein intake etc generally are pretty damn aware of their caloric intake.
Same. In fact I had a three month period where I barely gained weight. Was eating at Menno's recommendation. Up'd my protein intake without changing my calories and started seeing my weight move up predictable, strength increases, and waist size has stayed the same indicating very lean gains. All signs point to my body responding MUCH better at higher protein intakes
I always hear recommendations for protein intake per kg body weight. This presumably is misleading since, very likely, protein demand per kg for someone with 30% body fat is very different from that of someone with 7%. Therefore protein recommendations should be made based on lean body mass and not total body weight.
Surely it all depends on your carb intake? I'm high protein keto (to manage a health condition) so my protein covers energy needs in addition to muscle synthesis. There may not be a change in muscle growth over 1.6g/kg but I need that 1.6 PLUS the amount needed to cover the energy needs that would be covered by glucose in non-keto folks
One of the things i always wonder is: If im 25% body fat then obviously my recommended protein intake is going to be alot higher due to the fat weight. Should i still use this 0.7g of protein per lb weight?
Is that protein intake made from only nobles proteins or is comprehensive of food like peanut, bread, potatoes, ...? I'm at 2.1g/kg (+10gEAA) but only 1.1g/kg comes from nobles protein (meat/eggs/fish/dairy). Thank you for reply
There is one benefit for people who are dieting taking protein you did not consider: When converting protein to glucose, it losts about 20% of its energy in the process. So if you count you get 100kcal from protein, you only get 80. That is of course only incase you use the protein as energy.
you say: “if you are on gear you will need mich higher protein intake” i always heard that if you are on aas you may need less protein cause your body is utilising them better. can you explain better the concept of why you would need more when on gear? 🙏
@@AlanCarson726🤔🤔 mh… i like the “not contraddiction principle”: or is it optimal to have more, or it is optimal to have less (both is not possible) 🤷♂️ 🤷♂️
Menno, is there any valid research regarding a benefit to a higher protein intake for the elderly? Possibly something to counter the higher degree of catabolism?
I’m a Vegan Athlete and get to 2g/kg of protein everyday without even trying. It comes easily and tho it might be overshoot, I don’t need to lower that
does the 1.6g still apply for beginners? i think dr mike said 2.4g per kg for beginners but im not sure and im not sure how long you are a beginner if you do good workouts 2-4 times a week. i guess you will just notice when you stop gaining as much muscle, but yeah a vid on this could be cool
![Can the body only absorb 20 g protein per meal? [Science]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/NmAuWIFVwMI/mqdefault.jpg)
0:30 I think you mean 0.7g/lb
Oops, yes.
Oof ok, had me doing the math confusion meme over here
Freedom units aren’t free.
Dont feel bad it’s a very common mistake made due to lack of freedom 🦅🦅🦅0.8🦅🦅🦅
@@N8Shamrockable😅😅😅
yeah big mistake there that will invariably cause a lot of confusion
So glad the comments on the other guy's video sent me here. I was doing mental gymnastics trying to figure out how to add another 40g of protein to my daily intake.
fr, fk that. My stomach would fk hate me
To me it would be something around 100g lmao. Basically a nightmare.
Sameee
@@fumoblitzkrie lol I know. I was looking at 120-125g per day like 🤢😵💫
@@kehammer100 I have to eat 150g at 0.7g/lb... Do you weigh 120lbs?
Menno, you are a light of clarity amongst influence-based histeria and posturing, thank you so much. I have long suspected that people are promoting way too high of a protein intake and it is my belief that it really makes a lot of people feel inferior for not consuming outrageous amounts of it. Also love how clearly you outlined the exceptions, as so many people use them as the rule, not as the nuance they are! Kudos, sir!
Coming back here to rewatch after Dr. Mike and Dr. Wolf dropped the video about this on the RP channel and said 1.3g/pound, or I think even 3g/kg was mentioned. Not being dogmatic, but what has been said here makes more sense to me on average.
most of the fitness phd's are actually just stupid people. not tryna be an ass but like wtf are they doing during their [hd's for them to so humongously misinterpret articles and lack the ability to understand basic research methodology. some of them need to get out of academia
Mike and Milo grossly misinterpreted the study they cited in their video. That very study debunks their magical conclusions.
@@hclyrics That was my impression as well.
@@hclyrics I wanna see a Mike/Milo/Menno round table discussing this to get to the bottom of it. Water is very muddy right.
There is no getting to the bottom of this. Like usually mike and milo misinterpret data@@SeeTeaSea
Thank you! I just saw Milo and Dr Mike talking about the same meta study and this video helps me get the full context.
whats crazy is that Renaissance Periodization just uploaded a 17min video of this outdated 2020 study, even falsely claming it was the 2022 study, saying you need 3.1kg/kg/BW
now everyones gonna be confused
Yeah I usually like their videos but they must’ve been high doing that video😂 I did see Mike was blinking a lot, probably just a side effect of the roids tho
I ran over here after watching that vid. Partly glad that I don't have to start shoveling down 100% more protein every day, partly disappointed that doing so won't give me 40% more gains.
yeah 3.1g/kg is just ridiculously absurd, no way in hell am i eating 200g of protein per damn day
@@Bread011200g/day really isn’t too hard. Granted, I’m averaging 122kg BW so my daily protein is about 220g lol
@@KurumaDesigns I like Dr. Mike, absolutely love his videos and respect his education, but I think the fact he's really trying to push out a lot of content, especially now,lets big mistakes like this slip and not have proper quality checks as a consequence. I also really wish he would put his citations and references in his descriptions or at the end of his slides.
I’m not in exercise science but it’s scary how many times I’ve had to tell my dissertation committee that I can’t simply control for pre-existing group differences on a confounding variable by making it a covariate. I’ve literally had to send them papers from statisticians that are basically shouting at scientists to stop doing this, because they thought I was just being stubborn.
What field are you in?
Can you share some of that literature? My understanding is that controlling by adding a covariate with pre-existing group differences should be fine as long as they are "upstream" from the treatment and outcomes. In the case of the 2020 study, weight change was downstream from both treatment and outcome, which makes it a bad covariate. Is this what you mean or do you mean something else?
In, for the reply.
People need to understand that science is performed by the same kinds of people you walk past on the street. We _hope_ that they are good at their job, but... well, it's complicated. 😄
Every Menno video Is just pure gold. Best information on the sphere.
Milo Wolf needs to watch this video
Milo milk has his bias. He gotta take in that meat.
Lol, I feel like "are people crying wolf?" was a reference to him
I just watched his video... thought I needed to increase my protein intake but maybe not.
Menno sets to his Ultimate attack to destroy the Wolf
Milo should watch this video and respond in kind, or have a video where he debates menno in person, and we as the audience can decide who presents a better case. This is how good faith scientific discussion is supposed to work and is working well!
Looking at the graph at 8:35, I really do not think that this extremely scattered data is sufficient to say that there is a limit at 1,6g/kg. This only works if you apply the prior "there must be a limit and the underlying true data is a linear increase with a certain setpoint at which it becomes constant" And even if you do, the 95% confidence interval in the study, indicated by the arrow , ends at 2,2g/kg, which is only exceeded by 2 studies that both are above the fit line. With how scattered the data is, you can very well just fit a linear increase to it or, if you have theoretical model assumptions that would yield I. E. a square root or logarithmic increase, for those. Also this throws all the studies together, I would really like to see the same graph only including the studies in trained individuals who already have significant muscle mass,since it's likely that they benefit from this while newbies don't.
A reverse approach to this which I would be interested in is asking trying to find people at the gym who go there at similar frequency and have been for a similar amount of time and then plot their fat free mass over protein intake per pound over the past year. Of course this relies on self reporting and has other confounding issues, but it would quickly give a lot of data. Maybe just do it with bodybuilders (natural) after competition, since they probably all tracked their macros precisely. Would be very interesting to see if there are any at all that consume less than 1,5g/kg and also since this is basically peak trained, to see whether there is still a positive relationship between ffm and intake at those levels.
Even if you don't believe trained individuals need more and think that the breakpoint analysis itself is sensible, I would at least eat the 2,2 grams/kg upper confidence limit . Additional variation here might also be due to inherent genetic differences, I. E. one person has a higher ceiling than another, similar to how some people don't respond to creatine etc.
You can fit whatever line you want, but if you used a straight line the data would be extremely underfitted. The linear increase + flat line might be slightly oversimplified, but any decent model would show something similar. It's not really a subjective thing.
@@SphericalPenguinthe arrow below the figure indicates the 95 percent confidence interval, which is between 1.03 to 2.20 g/protein. So they even acknowledge themselves that the error is very high using this fit. Particularly the 2.2 g boundary includes almost all studies and the only 2 data points beyond 2,2 g/kg are actually above the fit line , so I would be very doubtful to include an upper limit from this data and if so, at least use the 2,2g/protein figure to be on the somewhat safe side ( I wouldnt step in a plane with a 2,5% chance of failing, but for workouts this is acceptable).
Still also my point about distinguishing between trained and untrained individuals in this graph holds.
@@JL2579 Going purely by the data (which is probably just noise/variance), there would be a slight downwards trend from about 1.6g/kg to 2.2g/kg with a better fitting line (note that better doesn't mean actually better, just that it fits closer to the data). Given that, it's hard to believe there might be a sudden increase from beyond 2.2g/kg. What we know with almost certainty is that MPS scales dramatically with higher protein at first and then starts to slow down, it doesn't make sense that it would start to slow down and then start to pick up again. Yes, more high quality studies with specific populations are always welcome, but it would take a long time to compile enough studies to overturn this 1.6g/kg number.
I think the co-founders would be insane if you just go by correlation, ppl who eat more protein care more about their training etc
@@luisbauer78 you are probably right
Been watching some of your videos and honestly your one of the better smaller/newer fitness youtubers I have seen on youtube. Just wanted to give my feedback.
This is a great video. I really appreciate that Meno went through the problems and limitations of the newer meta-analysis and explained just why the results aren’t as reliable for drawing significant conclusions. It would be easy to just say, “Well, I’m an author of a conflicting study and an expert with a PhD so trust me bro” but Meno went above and beyond. Many scientists and educators could learn from him
Don’t forget to come up for air when you’re gargling his balls dude
Fantastic analysis. We need more analyses like this. Protein needs seem to depend on numerous factors, including how hard and long you train, age, what kind of protein you eat, etc.
Low science literacy: "Bro, protein"
Some science literacy: "Brother, this single study changes everything."
High science literacy: "Bro, protein, but all these studies, it is nuanced."
This issue is caused by youtube, in science one study doesn't change anything unless it can be replicated.
@@eduardoubilla4307 these are metareviews, not experimental studies
So happy to hear this, I´m cutting and was on 40% protein of total intake and it´s a total ballache trying to hit that much protein in a day.
It gets very tiresome at progressively lower calorie goals. I'm on 1700 and 185g at the moment. 2% yoghurt mixed with whey powder, shouldn't work but it mixes down super smooth and you can throw some berries in it for almost no calorie cost.
@@ImBarryScottCSS My take away from this is that I can drop from 280 grams a day to less than 180 and can actually eat other things lol
I’d say get ready to have worse results following the lower protein intake advice. You can look at this study or that study, but in real life, higher protein is going to result in your body composition being leaner and more muscular.
@@BrandonRohe Are you saying this video is wrong?
@@TheSpainy my personal results were far better with high protein. Eating about 200g at 140 lb. body weight for example. It helps with satiety, thermic effect, and staying lean whether bulking or cutting.
So happy i found this video, the RP video had me spiraling a little bit about how i was going to try to fit 1.3+g/lb of protein in each day
Glad you addressed this Menno. I was thinking about upping my protein in my next bulk, because of the “new” evidence for it. Will stick to my .7g/lb thanks to you. Saves me lots of money, absolute life saver.
It used to be .64 but they just rounded it up like the .8 recommendation as well.
Thank you Menno for bringing clarity into that topic!
People crying WOLF 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Menno you naughty boooy
LMAO i couldn't be the only one who caught that reference
Ahhahaha, I wouldn't have caught this one and I was even thinking of him and his clip, kudos, sir!
Shots fired boys, were gonna have to chant to have milo and menno debate and Dr mike forced to mediate his heroes against one another
Such a subtle burn, well played.
I want to be on the incrowd as well... can someone please explain?
Your content is fantastic. Your frequent references to studies, with attachments, is done by only a few of your colleagues.
Would you please consider making a video on protein recommendations for men on PEDs?
Thanks so much,
Gray
Thanks for all the citations!
Thank GOD 😭 saw there video last night and been stressing ever since, you the man hense
Menno, thank you very much for clarifying the issue. I was confused a little hearing recently that consuming more than 1,6 g per kg was advisable. You provided much needed information. It's much appreciated
00:28 0.7g/lb of bodyweight*
Almost discredit the entire video. 😂
1.6g/kg for the sane people.
How do you know your correction is correct? It probably is but when the experts get it wrong mixing it up (g/lb g/kg) in a video what chance do we have.
Thanks for the clarity.
Your friend Milo was preaching 3.0g per kilo of weight as it can mean more gains upto 55%. Thank you for clearing things. I find it hard to even hit 1.6g per kg. I didnt want to feel bad about missing out on even more gains.
All I know is when I have 0.8 grams per pound of protein, I don't grow as well or get nearly the results I get at 1.2 gram per pound of protein. I've spent a lot of time trying different protein ratios at the lower ones don't work for me. Lower protein might work great for the cohorts in those studies, but I'm not wasting my effort on lower protein.
At the same calorie intake?
ditto. massing or cutting, same story. probably a bigger issue on the cut but better results in either case with >1g/lb.
It varies per person, remember that these meta-analyses give us averages. You might simply respond better to higher protein than most people.
No front and MAYBE you are right, but I can't take people seriously if they make claims like these.
Like are you really telling us that you tried 0.8g for a longer time span like 6 months did a DEXA before and after, didn't change any other variable in your nutrition, recovery and training, then did the same thing again with a higher protein intake and measured and calculated the difference?
Very unlikely in my opinion.
Also muscle growth is non linear so whatever you tried first has a bias to build more muscle because the more you have the less you build.
Sounds like to me you just weren't eating enough carbs. Carbs are "protein sparing" and your body prefers to store dietary fat rather than burn it if it can. When you eat more protein than your body needs for repair replacement and growth it literally just burns it like a carb. So I believe you that eating more protein gave you better results. For some reason a lot of ppl are afraid of carbs. So when they up their protein they "feel better". Just eat the damn carbs. And when I say carbs I'm not talking about candy and cookies. I'm talking oatmeal rice potatoes ect.
Thank you for diving into the details of this! I've now heard this meta-analysis mentioned a few places but no one bothered to really go into any details, only the results. This is much more helpful :)
Took the words out my mouth, was literally just about to type this 👍🏾
Very thoughtful analysis, broken down in a way that was easy to understand. This video earned a subscribe
Just started laughing at the thought of consuming 3.1 g/kg of protein and not lifting
Thank you for giving the recommendation up from AND linking to the papers.
Would be nice for menno to have a debate with Milo Wolf
A debate? More like a tutoring session
Yes, please. Not just IG comments.
funny you say that since Milo Wolf jus uploaded a video with Dr Mike about the results of the 2020 study saying we all need to up our protein
Thank you for all your hard work.
Thanks Menno for the info! I'm wondering why protein intake is based on bodyweight instead of fat free mass? Sounds weird to me that a big belly requires any protein intake. It will also save a lot of chicken lives.
There's still quite a few coaches and lifters that have experimented with high amounts of protein and found it beneficial. I still aim for 2g/kg to be in the middle ground. Often that ends up being closer to the truth.
Curious to see your response to Greg Nuckols article breaking down the Morton paper and adjusting protein recommendations upwards to 2-2.35 g/kg
@7:40 I was about to say this is a typo and should be "inflection point", but apparently "inflexion point" has been used in the past in legitimate mathematics. Your search results will be better if you look for stuff using the "inflection" spelling, though.
Excellent analysis & breakdown!!
Excellent, as usual. I will point out that there is another group and that is elderly lifters. Yes, Arnold is 'elderly' now and he has recently made a significant paradigm shift in his protocols. I digress. I would like to see a discussion by Menno on this group (70+) as our dynamics are a bit different from the kids, and yes, a 40 YO is a 'kid' to a septuagenarian 😉.
Yesterday at the work Xmas-do, there was a buffet and I ate mostly meats - sausage, broiled chicken, minute steaks, broiled salmon. According to my Fitbit data (estimated weights of the meats), I ate 210g of protein. I'm a tubby 90kg recently returned to exercising. So that's 2.3g/Kg. It was not easy and hoboy was my heart rate elevated for hours processing so much!
The point about guys on gear is spot on. My best gains came when I took 750 mg test per week and 300 grams of protein per day plus lots of training volume. When I tried the same cycle later with less protein and training volume, the results were not even close.
Thank you Menno. Can you please make a video on protein intake for enhanced athletes?
he talks about it at 11:50 you need significantly more but Mike Isratael did a video on that too
Very, very helpful. Thank you for proving a clear signal amongst all the noise out there
Patiently waiting for the video on protein intake for gear users.
I love how pissed of that study made you. The reason I follow you is because of your neutral approach. And this was just an awesome reminder why to keep watching your videos.
thank you, Menno -that was helpful! 😊 you mentioned at the end that vegans might need higher protein intake. Are there reliable studies which could give a reference to how much higher this might be?
Can you do an updated video on building muscle in a deficit and how it compares to maintenance? Eg. can we predict how much impact a 200 deficit will have compared to maintenance etc.
I would like to see more videos discussing the quality of research being cited for or against a claim.
Thank you, helpful summary. The fourth group is older people due to poorer absorption of protein? It would be really helpful to have a better understanding of how much more and age groups ....
Might be worth remembering Milo is a relatively new youtuber and wants to make a name for himself - look at the clickbaity way he advertises his videos and the dogmatic, arrogant approach he displays in his videos.
Also someone mentioned this on reddit about the study he lauds-
"One thing forgot to mention is that 5 of the 7 researchers who conducted these studies are employees of Meiji Corporation, one of Japan's largest dairy & food manufacturers including owning Japan's most popular protein brand (SAVAS). Therefore there is a potential conflict of interest"
12:02 1.6-1.8g/kg total bodyweight. How can this be? So if you are 200lb (91kg)and 30% bodyfat you should consume the same protein as if you are 200lb and 10% bodyfat????? Can this be correct?
Of course, it refers to body weight for a person with a relatively reasonable body fat percentage. So, if you weigh 90 kg with 30% body fat, you can calculate it, for example, using the formula height minus 100 (in centimeters). Alternatively, you can subtract 30% from 90, then add 15%.
Somehow i always knew it just by doing different stuff every year. I'm 210lbs at 6'3 so for me 210g used to be the go to protein amount. Some phases i decided to 140gr and i still didn't lose any gains or noticed anything that different. I still like to do 1g/lbs bodyweight cause it is so simple to do and to keep as a habit, but the effect of it is minimal if your sleep, diet, and training is of good quality.
Menno I am shocked you didn't even mention that at least half of that should be from quality sources and not bread. You only vaguely touched on that for vegans lol. But, thanks, I experimented for a couple of months and .64 - .70 does get me recovered for the next workout. Well done!!!
2:20 that Wolf part is hilarious
I’m 198 lbs currently, I’ve since switched from 1g/lb to 0.7g/lb for the last 6 weeks and, using the RP Hypertrophy App and tracking my macros using Cronometer, my training volume continues to increase. So I’m data point of 1 in evidence of this
Thanks for the great info. 👍
how does age effect how much protein someone should consume? A 22 yr old lifter vs a 50 yr old lifter? I heard you need more protein as you age.
Yes, I have heard this as well. I believe they say that older people dont metabolize protein as well.
@@NuclayerI am approaching 50, and it seems that if I don’t aim for 0.8g/lb or above that I start to see problems. Could it be my imagination? Possibly. But I’d rather be safe than sorry, especially as age becomes more and more of a factor. Protein isn’t cheap, but a few more grams per day as insurance isn’t going to break the bank.
@@BB-tt5inhow do you get the protein in throughout the day?
@ I eat an egg, about 200g of liquid egg whites, and about 25g of whey with my breakfast. Lunch varies, but typically chicken breast or fish (150g+ serving), and the same for dinner. I might throw in a protein bar throughout the day, or Greek yogurt or cottage cheese. Add in the rest of what I eat (vegetables, whole grains), and my daily total is typically about 190-200g of protein intake.
@ My bw is currently 190lb at around 12-14%bf, so I aim for 190g but if I happen to get a bit less for whatever reason it isn’t a big deal.
Americans really need to switch over to the metric system. This is just ridiculous at this point.
Yeah not going to happen lol
Yep. GRAMS (!) per LBS (!!). What a monstrosity of ... i don't even know what to call it.
@@eric1020same as you people making sense, not gonna happen...!
Fight the new world order! With really annoying conversion!
The metric sytem was adopted by the US in 1975 and has been the official system since that time. Most Americans just dont use it.
Thanks GOD I don't need to stuff myself to death with protein powder every day to meet these 3g per kg "magic numbers". And don't need to go broke buying it.
Just as many other people mentioned I'm a bit confused because I too saw that Milo Wolf's video about this particular research...
Dr Mike 🤝 Wolf growing their RUclips at any cost
Would love a video on protein for people on gear and where you're drawing conclusions that intake might need to be higher, considering studies with people on gear are virtually non-existent.
I really want to know how much whey protein shake per shake i can make use of as a pct of my body weight or something
Very helpful, thank you Menno. Does age make any difference? I keep hearing that older individuals utilize protein less efficiently and need higher consumption for the same benefit.
There is one question that I couldn't find answer anywhere but is very relevant for majority of people: We know what's the protein amount for maximum growth. But what about people who do minimalist training like 5-7 set per muscle group per week. We know they can still have decent gains but will their gains be smaller if they consume let's say 1.2g/kg instead of 1.6-1.8g/kg?
Theoretically they do not reach their full growth potential due to lack of stimulus. Do they still need so much protein?
1.6 is very easy to achieve, unless you are extremely overweight (in which case you likely do not need as much). what is the point of reducing the intake if you are already doing insufficient volume other than just making things worse?
@@teddygross7543 1.6 being easy is a relative statement depending on your personal situation and habits. I would definitely enjoy lowering protein amount if it wouldn't affect the results.
@@teddygross7543the point is not stuffing yourself with excessive food? Not everyone enjoys shoving crap in their mouth. If I'm not training like a pro bodybuilder, why would I want to eat like one?
I do think lower volume means lower protein requirement. Mike Mentzer came to a similar conclusion.
@@davorzdralo8000You misunderstood the point of the video. Manipulating the proportions of macronutritients of meals has nothing to do with increasing the quantity of consumed food and stuffing yourself, in fact quite the opposite as a typical westerner eats 3.540 calories per day, a natural bodybuilder will likely eat LESS than that for the majority of the year.
Thank you for a lot of great videos including this one! :-) I heard an Iron Culture podcast yesterday, where Eric Helms and Eric Trexler discussed this topic. They mentioned that some models found that it's better to base your protein intake on your lean body mass/muscle mass than total weight. What's your take on that?
Another great video ! I have one question , im looking at my first bulk , when calcualting protein do you figure out the end weight you want to get to at the end of your bulk and then find out the protein and use that protein intake or do you step up your protein over time?
Thanks
All these studies are controlled but are absolutely not, considering they’re not in a closed setting, and individuals self report. Also none of them seem to account for age of subjects. It’s now well known through the research of Dr. Lehman and Dr. Wolfes studies that older adults have a need for higher protein, 2-3x as much as someone in their 20’s to mid 30’s, for increased protein intake to activate muscle protein synthesis due to age related anabolic resistance even with a proper strength training program.
Good explanation, thanks. Does the amount of protein recommended vary with age? Do I need >2g/kg to compensate for loss of effective utilisation at 55 vs 25? Or is that a myth?
Cannot really wrap my head around that Milo video. I just follow fitness research as a hobby but it seemed pretty obvious that there were going to be some confounding variables involved when doubling the 'optimal'' level of protein found in decades of literature found 55% increase in growth. This is probably what, the single most researched topic in fitness and he thought he discovered a paradigm shift that everyone else missed, and such a massive one?
He ended his video saying 'make sure you read actual research instead of staying stuck in the evidence based echo chamber', and it seems like he didn't even read the research closely.
He graduated from a low-rated university or college. Lyle McDonald gives him a hard time for it every time Milo says something stupid.
@@Caokelmao i somehow just found out about lyle. Hes my new favorite yt fitness guy
@@Caoke just like "Dr" Mike
Why are you assuming he is acting in good faith. The guy is obviously a charlatan
@Ventryx but lyle does it to mike too, it's refreshing
Menno, thanks for the great research! Question: Are there negative life longevity consequences for consuming the amount of daily calories needed to ingest 1.6-1.8g/kg? I understand that a lower calorie diet seems to improve longevity. Or am I wrong?
100 kg * 2g of protein per kilo equals 200 grams. One gram of protein has 4 calories. That is 800 calories. What human being is on an only 800-calorie diet?
I easily get 200+ grams of protein daily while cutting on around 2000 cals
We need Milo vs Menno debate on this to stop one of the parties from spreading mis-information. Thankfully people from RP already saw through alot of the mishaps on their video.
Where's the link to the new meta...?
That's good to hear. Been eating 180-200 grams per day for a while, but seems like 140ish is already enough. Can drop some calories that way, will drop to 150-170/day.
How much do you weight and age?
@@dory_m78 29, 181cm, 80kg
Some official American units Distance: Football field, Area: Football field, Volume: Olympic swimming pool Mass: Bag of cement
What about protein timing (pre/post workout), does it matter?
One thing you did not mention is variance. Are there significant differences from person to person in these studies? I feel like the one size fits all number is only sufficient if it's really the upper limit for every single person on record. Not saying you didn't consider it, just didn't talk about it and it leaves me wondering
I often hear that older lifters need more protein, but never how much more. Are we talking 10% more, twice as much? Or what? No doubt it varies by individual and age, but are there any guidelines?
I've tryied for the past 7mths 2.5-3.1 gram per kg and noticed a difference
Thanks! There should be much more people, that argue so deep with papers on the whole sport and nutrition topic because of all the myths.
Yooo yoyoo.... Uncle Menno in da house 🎉🎉🎉❤❤❤❤..
What about protein intake for older lifters like myself 50+years of age. Does protein intake need to be higher?
Excellent video as usual. 🙏 Thanks for relating this conclusion to a plant-based diet.
Is it 1,6g per kg of actual body weight or kg of lean mass?
Unless people get a dexascan it would be pretty difficult to accurately test lean mass. It's total weight. Hop on the scale and that's the weight.
@@bjjazoresrule what if you are obese or overweight ?
Shouldn't u use LBM instead of total weight ?
Are there any studies on trained bodybuilders with a large sample size done for 6 months - 1 year or longer?
This is all great. But are there studies to eating protien & carbs in a cycle as you recover because I am a freak of nature at 21 percent body fat at 213lbs female & I have to go with my cravings or I don't recover very fast or very well.
After a heavy lift, I crave hard protien for 2 days after & that's largely my diet. Then I crave carbs to refill my muscles for a day & then I can balance out my diet for a few days.
I cannot consistently eat a static diet for my sanity or my stomach. If I limit my protien to a static intake, I go bezerk. And when I am craving the fluid & fuel to fill my muscles, it's beyond my control. I am still making gains with this method & I wonder if there is literature to eating in cycles.
I (as well as a few others close to me) noticed a marked improvement in my physique since I have been consuming around 2g/kg, and it is fairly significant, so as much as I trust your judgement, we are not averages, we are individuals and in my specific case, I find slightly higher to be better. (I have tried 1g/kg up to 2g/kg over the years and I have been lifting for 10 years now)
without changing daily calorie intake?
@@abeidiot People who are at the point where they've been training for a decade and know exactly their daily protein intake etc generally are pretty damn aware of their caloric intake.
Same. In fact I had a three month period where I barely gained weight. Was eating at Menno's recommendation. Up'd my protein intake without changing my calories and started seeing my weight move up predictable, strength increases, and waist size has stayed the same indicating very lean gains. All signs point to my body responding MUCH better at higher protein intakes
I always hear recommendations for protein intake per kg body weight. This presumably is misleading since, very likely, protein demand per kg for someone with 30% body fat is very different from that of someone with 7%. Therefore protein recommendations should be made based on lean body mass and not total body weight.
Surely it all depends on your carb intake? I'm high protein keto (to manage a health condition) so my protein covers energy needs in addition to muscle synthesis. There may not be a change in muscle growth over 1.6g/kg but I need that 1.6 PLUS the amount needed to cover the energy needs that would be covered by glucose in non-keto folks
One of the things i always wonder is:
If im 25% body fat then obviously my recommended protein intake is going to be alot higher due to the fat weight.
Should i still use this 0.7g of protein per lb weight?
What about older trainees, e.g. over 60? I keep hearing that we vintage guys need more protein for the same result.
Is that protein intake made from only nobles proteins or is comprehensive of food like peanut, bread, potatoes, ...?
I'm at 2.1g/kg (+10gEAA) but only 1.1g/kg comes from nobles protein (meat/eggs/fish/dairy).
Thank you for reply
I enjoy the clarity of info. No nonsense. I'm gonna stick with my 1.5g per kg and be nice and happy about it
Seing Menno's analysis of this meta VS ahem Doctor Wolf's, well I know who I'm coming to for analysis in the future lets put it that way.
There is one benefit for people who are dieting taking protein you did not consider:
When converting protein to glucose, it losts about 20% of its energy in the process.
So if you count you get 100kcal from protein, you only get 80. That is of course only incase you use the protein as energy.
Gram per pound? What's next? Centimeters per quart?
The body on the left looks good enough. So I'll stick to 0.7 without watching the video 😂
you say: “if you are on gear you will need mich higher protein intake”
i always heard that if you are on aas you may need less protein cause your body is utilising them better. can you explain better the concept of why you would need more when on gear? 🙏
It works both ways.
You can get away with less, but you can also utilise more.
@@AlanCarson726🤔🤔 mh… i like the “not contraddiction principle”: or is it optimal to
have more, or it is optimal
to have less (both is not possible)
🤷♂️ 🤷♂️
Menno, is there any valid research regarding a benefit to a higher protein intake for the elderly? Possibly something to counter the higher degree of catabolism?
I’m a Vegan Athlete and get to 2g/kg of protein everyday without even trying. It comes easily and tho it might be overshoot, I don’t need to lower that
does the 1.6g still apply for beginners? i think dr mike said 2.4g per kg for beginners but im not sure and im not sure how long you are a beginner if you do good workouts 2-4 times a week.
i guess you will just notice when you stop gaining as much muscle, but yeah a vid on this could be cool
protein of what? pea protein or liver? whey shakes or steak?