Stranger Things, Belligerent Romance, and the Danger of Nostalgia
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- The hit Netflix series Stranger Things is a love letter to iconic pop culture media of decades past. But there are dangers in leaning too heavily on nostalgia because media makers can sometimes end up reproducing harmful patterns along with their retro aesthetics, especially when it comes to action hero masculinity and belligerent romance conventions from the 1980s.
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Writer/Producer: Jonathan McIntosh
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Your point about male characters so often getting "redeemed" by dying in a self-sacrificing way makes me wonder if we're all so obsessed with Prince Zuko's redemption arc because he actually has to Do The Work.
3 years late here, but hot take, Zuko didn't need a redemption. He was emotionally abused and manipulated into doing bad things that he didn't truly believe in. He needed forgiveness and redemption in the eyes of the Gaang, but he didn't need a grand redemption I'm the eyes of the audience or the people who knew why he did what he did (Iroh).
@@TheDarkroomDude Being abused does not excuse being abusive. Understanding cycles of abuse does provide a foundation for forgiveness and redemption to be possible, but as Flutie said you still have to 'Do The Work.'
@@ConteSenzaScarpe was he an abuser though? Like genuinely what abuse did he do? I'm not asking if he did bad things, but specifically abuse. You can commit a crime or do a bad thing and it isn't necessarily abuse. So in what way is he an abuser?
@@TheDarkroomDude He was definitely abusive towards his crew and Iroh, and while 'abuse' does generally connote a personal relationship, it can also be used to refer to violent actions in general, including his violence towards team avatar and others. I don't think the semantics are really that important, though, as the intent is that no violence is justified by having experienced violence, even though experiencing violence is often one of the causes of perpetrating violence.
Honestly though they still pulled the same thing with Jet. Was kinda disappointed with how his arc ended but I guess it'd be way too similar to Zuko's
Heroic Sacrifice: Dying Means Never Having to Say You're Sorry.
News media is the greatest in that! Not having to say sorry in retraction.
or: saying you're sorry then dying means you never have to work on being better
@@joncross8483or dying and then just coming back alive in the next season
Hopper’s shift in characterization honestly.......pissed me off. He was a damaged man with a dark history who learned to be better. Then immediately forgot. So very rarely do we see healthy, heartfelt father/daughter relationships portrayed on screen. Messing this one up was a travesty.
Jesse Lee Kelly It really was. Last season the whole “trying his best to do what’s good for El” was perfect. Maybe keeping her in isolation wasn’t the best idea, maybe it was (as far as I remember the Government still wanted El? Idk why they wouldnt have, so his reasoning was justified) but he never seemed as abusive as he did this season.
I read this shift as him not knowing how to be a father and regressing into old patterns. A lot of people had problems with his arc but if you've ever known anyone you've seen that it is very easy for those who've discovered a new way of existence to fall back and relying on old patterns of behavior when challenged in unsuspected ways. Abusive behavior for sure but Hopper was never presented as the most anger-managey sort of dude.
Completely agree. I was happy when he died. If only he could stay dead. Or if they bring him back, I want to see massive apologies from him to Joyce and El
"So very rarely do we see healthy, heartfelt father/daughter relationships portrayed on screen."
nah you are just not watching the right movies/shows, im sure theres tons of movies the feature and/or are centered around that concept.
I haven't watched the show enough to know how his arc and storyline played out, but unfortunately things like this do happen. Someone I know was very similar, and they did well for a very long time, but eventually fell back due to many reasons. For many who've had difficult pasts and trauma, it's often something you have to manage daily and keep pushing yourself to be/do better -- if self-management wanes, their life takes a turn, they have no support, or they lose their awareness, it's not unheard of for someone to 'let themselves go' in terms of character, emotional health, compassion etc. and it is very confusing and heart-breaking for those around them. Not saying it's okay, though.
That said, this is just a general statement. Idk about this character and if the writers just butchered him :/
I always thought that Bob was supposed to be the huge wet blanket boyfriend who the audience would hate on the grounds of being boring. Unfortunately for the Duffers, Sean Astin is just too damn lovable and charismatic that we all liked him anyway.
Unfortunately? Dude that was the point being made. The Duffer brothers made you think he was just a huge wet blanket and then made you like him. That was not you or Sean Astin, that was the writing:)
So he was expensive, then -"@@unripeyarrowroot1182"?
Me to Hopper for all of Season 3:
"You're not Bob! You'll never be Bob!!!!"
I completely forgot that Hopper had that talk with El where he admitted that his fear manifests as anger and he makes bad decisions but he's trying. They did all that development, and then immediately fell onto the "dad is possessive of his teenage daughter's virginity so he wants to kill her boyfriend and sabotage her perfectly normal relationship" trope
Season 3 bothered me for a lot of reasons, this among them. For me the worst moment was when the Russians were getting shot up; Stranger things 1 & 2 always seemed to treat human life with a certain bit of respect. Death happened to 'bad' characters, but it was never a footnote. When Hopper killed several Russians, there wasn't either sadness or justice, they just didn't matter enough for the show to note that murder beyond a one liner. Even the deaths of minor characters, such as unnamed scientists had previously felt at least somewhat regrettable before.
It bothered me that it was always The Russians (tm). I get that it had some part to do with Cold War culture, but we need to move beyond grouping people by one trait (ie. their nationality) and making that their sole feature, especially when they're the villains.
@@NoiseDayyou guys are crybabies
@@plaplaks how is asking for nuance being a crybaby?
I think this is part of the reason why Seasons 1 and 2 felt better tonally. Season 3 was no longer a grounded sci-fi mystery show, it was more of a cartoonish action-adventure where a stereotypical '80s cop guns down a bunch of supervillain Ruskies.
I found Hopper's change of character really jarring because there was no inciting incident. And calling their bickering "sexual tension" came out of nowhere for me too. Thank you for putting my unease into words.
What hurts the most is that Stranger Things has been SO good with subverting toxic male tropes from jock Steve become a mom and learning to not need a romantic relationshio to gentle, soft Bob making the heroic sacrifice and showing his bravery, to early Hopper slowly developing respectful relationships with women. Then season 3 is like "enjoy this cartoon character throwing a fit because females are acting like he wants them too"
Man, I felt so bad after s2 for distrusting Bob's kindness. He seemed to be "too good to be true" when in reality he was just a decent human being. We're so used to disfunctional relationships that loving ones are received with skepticism. Now I want Bob back.
I feel you. I've wanted Bob back constantly.
Yeah I thought he was gonna be a government agent sent to spy on the Byers family, when I saw him getting eaten it was a big “nevermind I take it all back!” Moment. It sucks that we’re all so cynical genuine goodness is seen as a threat
@@hiddenechoes I never thought Bob was bad and I legit was seconds from crying when he died. I remember telling my sister how upset I’d be if he died before the finalie lmao
man, I loved Bob so much. I miss bro too
Basically, Glenn from the walking dead
S3 really turned my favorite character into my least, exactly because of this.
also, love your channel you make great videos. keep it up!
I could tell Hopper felt "off" in season 3, but I couldn't put it into words why. This hits it right on the nose.
Season 2 Hopper: Hugs Mike even when Mike is screaming and crying and beating on him over keeping Eleven's fate a secret.
Season 3 Hopper: I could kill Mike, I'm the Chief of Police, I could cover it up.
On a lesser note, how do you go through the events of Seasons 1 and 2 and not think "OH SHIT IT'S THE UPSIDE DOWN" when magnets fall off the fridge and rats start exploding. Why did Hopper and Jonathan not believe Joyce and Nancy's intuition? (I know why, but still.)
Bob deserved better. Joyce deserved better. Season 1-2 Hopper deserved better.
I know I shouldn't be surprised that Stranger Things has gotten swept up in its own nostalgia, but it's weird to me that a series that prided itself on fighting bullies and condemning toxic parents/lovers has turned a lot of its main characters into bullies and toxic individuals (and justifying it with "redemption"). Season 2 Max was ready to castrate her step-brother for trying to beat up Lucas, but season 3 has the racist, sexist, homophobic Billy die a heroic death with the sister he abused mourning him, all because "his father beat him" and "he misses his mom."
I agree with all your points but one...that being Billy. Now, maybe I'm just a sucker for characters with a tragic past, but I really wanted Billy to turn good, so to speak. I think he could have. He was abused as a kid, and it would *really* powerful for him to step above that trauma and end the cycle.
Just because Billy was a total jerkface (I would use a stronger word but I don't swear 😅) doesn't mean he can't change. We shouldn't belittle his trauma just because he's dealt with it the wrong way. Abuse is real, and it destroys lives.
I don't think that his death was the right way to make up for his mistakes, though. I also think it was weird Max was so upset. She hated him in season two, we should have seen more conflict. It's like they forgot he was a bad dude. He needed to actually make up for his mistakes, not just die. Live with his trauma, pain, and hurt he's gone through and caused others and become a good person in spite of it. That would have been much more powerful.
But that's my opinion, thanks for coming to my TED talk.
I honestly wish Bob had stuck around. It genuinely felt like they killed him off just to traumatize Joyce and to push her and Hopper together. And especially after seeing season three, I feel more justified in thinking this.
I had legit forgotten about how nuanced season 1 Hopper was and felt shocked seeing the scenes with him being all calm, emotionally open and soft-hearted. Goddammit!
I felt like I was the only one annoyed by Hopper this season, glad to see someone else share my views
He was being more of a dick this time.
Seconded, I felt that they really exaggerated Hopper's overprotective nature when it comes to Eleven, that he was willing to split up her and Mike as a result by forcing him to lie to her. That and his attitude towards Joyce was a bit much, although his heroic "sacrifice" at the end mostly made up for it, and the heartfelt letter he wrote for Eleven.😩💔
Talia Saurus I liked S03, but I’ll admit, the letter in the end of it, that sounded like Hopper. More like Hopper then the whole season.
My sister and I both didn't like hopper in the last season 😥
I used to like him in the earlier seasons but he really pissed me off with the macho controlling bullshit in this one.
I couldn't stand how Joyce was treated by Hopper this most recent season. Her completely valid feelings (which turned out to be correct once again) were downplayed and mocked. She's gone through so much and Hopper has too but instead of continuing a good character arc and maturing relationship between the two, the Duffer brothers just seemed to stop caring. I say this all especially because they did seem to learn about questioning the old tropes. In season 2 when El first saw Max, she immediately hated her. There would be no reason for this outside the old catfighting over a man trope. Even when the two finally met, El still hated her. A number of people complained about this, saying that there would be no reason for El to hate Max and there were so little female character interactions on the show as it was that they shouldn't have them hate each other. Come season 3 and they had a complete 180, El and Max bond a lot as friends and Max teaches El a lot about her own autonomy. This was fantastic to see, and makes Hopper's transformation all the more disheartening. I'm excited to see a video about the heroic sacrifice because Billy's didn't impress me at all and I've had to badly explain why to a number of people, having a good video to link to would be great.
Another thing that just doesn't sit well with me is that I think Stranger Things did such a good job portraying the harmfulness of emotional abuse by showing its effects in Billy, showed us a relationship of two damaged people trying to make it work with Nancy and Jonathan, and gave us the previously bull-headed male character, Steve, learning to better handle his feelings/gain more maturity by helping kids deal with their problems. The show was doing sooo well compared to other media when it came to these things.
And then there was season 3 Hopper.
It's jarring how they characterized him, compared to the other types of masculinity they'd already given us.
One thing I don’t understand is why men and masculine types in media are always written to have a “strong” presence, be DTF or show little emotion other than anger! Also has anyone ever noticed how men who are written to be “weak” often have higher, softer voices and rounder body types than men who don’t?
Terry Crews is the exception that proves the rule
Chelsea Cuzzocrea
Yeah....it’s like the audience couldn’t possibly get the point, unless they make everything super obvious.
Although there are exceptions to the rule. The character ‚Mikael Blomkvist‘ from the ‚Girl with the dragon tattoo‘, immediately came to my mind, as an example of a more complex, masculine, yet kind and decent person. At least, that’s how I remember the story...it has been a while.
But why masculinity is so often represented as anger and possessiveness and irrational behavior, is totally beyond me. We so need ‚good men‘ to be promoted as role models for our boys and young men.
But the 80s were amazing if you just ignore the reality of them......
This. So much this.
I get 80s nostalgia. The world seemed simpler. But it wasn't just simpler, in many ways it was also worse than it is now.
Same with the modern day,
…and the 90’s,
…and the 70’s,
…and the 2000’s,…
I don't know. I remember the 80s quite well and I would prefer them to what we have now for a variety of reasons.
God I miss Bob, killed off for Hop×Joyce smh
"When media makers rely so uncritically on nostalgia for inspiration, it prevents them from imagining new possibilities for male characters." This channel is so good, and this one sentence is so important to me. Even taking out the last phrase of "for male characters," that statement is just so completely true and relevant with media right now.
The only in-character moment for Hopper was his letter. That is how I choose to remember him.
The worst change, in my opinion, is that he stops believing in Joyce. She has proven time and time again that her suspicions are correct, and he was always in her corner even if he didn't completely believe the things she was saying. Now he throws it back in her face and tells her she's making it up because she's too afraid to date him. He doesn't take her seriously, never listens to her ideas, never offers her any of the support or patience he seemed to have for her in previous seasons, and flat out accuses her of being crazy.
After the second season, the audience was left with the idea that he'd always be there for her for whatever she needed. This new version of Hopper, in comparison, seems like such a betrayal.
I hate it so much when writers can't portray healthy relationships in an interesting way, so they deliberately mess them up.
this season honestly made me feel so uncomfortable because hopper reminded me a lot of my abusive dad :(
I never once thought that Bob was secretly bad, and I'm usually really good at catching secret baddies or double agents pretty quickly. Maybe it's because Bob reminds me a lot of my dad and my uncles (his brothers) and how they are with their spouses.
I felt the same way too. I kept finding myself thinking that whatever Bob said or did was something my dad would say or do. Bob is my favourite character that wasn't your typical male that was big and strong but was a big softy and I wished they didn't kill him off so soon.
I saw some flags in Bob that I recognized from other shows, but what convinced me that he wouldn't trigger any of them was when he believed in Will and tried to rectify a bad mistake he did earlier.
Everything about hopper’s behavior in this season was completely out of character, which is heartbreaking for me to watch because he is my FAVORITE character in this show!
Hopper wouldn’t harass Joyce into dating him- he’s not forward like that and also, like the video says, he’s been super respectful of Joyce and her feelings- he knows he just watch her last boyfriend die. That’s not like him to just move in on her like that.
Also, *where* did this hatred for Mike come from!? And this overprotective father syndrome?? It just hurts because it’s literally established in season 3 that they would work things out better. But now he comes home drunk- with his daughter at home!? Who IS this man!??
I will say that season four fixes this a lot. He’s more of the somber, quiet hero we originally knew. As far as I’m concerned- season 3 is a non-canon spin-off
They basically returned him to square one, but this time on steroids.
i love stranger things but yeah i agree. Hopper was not ready to be in a relationship, i dont know why they didnt continue Hopper's emotional growth from S2
When watching season 3 I was actually surprised that Hopper WASN'T revealed to be possessed the entire time. The character shift was so big.
Oh my god! OH MY GOD! This is it! This addresses what was wrong with season three that I couldn't explain to other people! I thought I was crazy! I know Hopper was an angry bastard but his character was changed so drastically but because he was still grumpy no one cared. Wow 👍
The Versace Life Yes! I almost didn’t recognise it as abusive bc in contrast Billy was “really” abusive. Now I see they both were.
Him and Mike were very different characters I feel.
@@Mordaedil I can’t see anything different about mike. He seems like the year older version of his s2 self. Everybody wants to hate mike. I don’t get why
Season 3 really isn’t great overall anyway. It was very repetitive and follows the same formula as the last two seasons.
The minute I started watching season 3, I knew there was something off about Hopper. Even him brutally torturing the mayor or governor, whatever he was, was disturbing and it was played for laughs. That was so weird to me. The writing for Hopper this season was disturbing and a reminder of how old tropes are old for a reason. They don’t need to be recreated and praised in today’s pop culture.
Fandoms defending stuff no matter how negative is what kills me about tv shows.
In season 3, I think it would've been better if Hopper and Joyce were single parents who have a close platonic relationship that has built upon the trauma they have shared. They give each other great advice and it's clear they don't have plans to sleep with each other at all. Turning Hopper into a jealous aggressive twat because Joyce didn't meet him for the date (because she had a legitimate excuse to go to Mr. Clarke's) was ridiculous and led to him feeling defaced from the Hopper of Seasons 1 and 2.
You meant ‘distanced’?
You know, Mr. Clarke's depiction is another variable that adds up to a formula this season of making the show more about weak socially-stunted men than about nostalgic sci-fi horror. It's just persistently distracting. That was a sentimental fad then and it's even more popular now with the atrociously dumb and weak Ken in the Barbie movie.
I knew I didnt like Hopper in S3 but couldnt quite explain why
Thanks for explaining it so well!
Same!
I couldn't even get through the second episode.
I just assume everything is toxic masculinity until RUclips gurus tell me how to think. I guessed right on this one.
Hey! Bob Newby got them out of Hawkins Lab when there were Demadogs EVERYWHERE! Hopper asked if he could learn the necessary code and Bob said "Oh sure! Why don't I just teach you a little French while I'm at it!" His skill set was validated! He had what it took! I love Bob Newby, Superhero!
*Finally, someone who speaks out on this matter.*
I think many audiences like Hopper in the previous seasons because he has a calm personality as if he's been through it all from being a sheriff (or from the army, we never know), and therefore is capable of making rational judgments based on past experiences. Now SS3 Jim is just this very aggressive, impatient and irrational person who always claim to know it all and thinks force can solve every problem. But then the movie killed him off and we are emotionally manipulated to feel as if it is US that were wrong for hating him at the beginning??
I've had issue with the way the Duffer Brothers write relationships and lean into 80s tropes for their male characters since season One, mainly with Jonathan and Nancy's relationship. The show is so set on that "nice guy misunderstood nerd deserves the nice girl more than the mean angry jock" because thats The 80s Way Of Doing it, and it feels so forced. In season one we see Jonathan take photos of Nancy changing without her knowing, use her fear of ending up like her mother in an unhappy marriage married fresh out of high school against her after she confides in him saying she'll end up like that if she stays with Steve instead of him, and at first I held out hope that it was all just commentary on those type of "I'm a Nice Guy trust me" types of nerdy guys since the season ended with her and Steve being together, but then in Season Two the two of them go to a middle aged man's house, get drunk and then hook up (while that middle aged man is very weirdly invested in these high schoolers having sex in his house that night, why fans find Murray's bizarre recurring writing of popping up to insist to characters have sex and then leaving endearing I'll never understand), and now Season 3 we see them in a relationship that consists of Jonathan downplaying her issues and experiences with sexism because "well I'M poor so I probably have it worse get over it", not believing her on anything and then when she ends up being right after their big fight he just tells her not to get a big head and she apologizes, and we never see them do anything, sweet? or even happy together? But it persists that we're supposed to be rooting for this. It's the same with whenever they try to include romance with the younger kids, we just get Max and Lucas having an angry back and forth and El coming out of an underground bunker fresh full of western beauty standards to hold herself to and jealousy over any girls talking to Mike. At this point I just wish they'd stop trying to write romance so much in the show, all the other writing is great but when it comes to that they usually just leave me feeling uncomfortable.
These archetypes may have been common in the 80s, but they persisted, and they're harmful, and we've only just started to shake them from popular media. There's no need to keep them going for nostalgia.
I thought I was the only one who thought it was weird that murrary was so interested in teens relationships
Thank The Vets for Their Service!°
Yes! This is exactly how I feel. I LOVE Stranger Things (S1&S2). I’ve watched it multiple times. But they totally destroyed Hopper this season. Complete 180 from his character’s trajectory in S1/S2. I was so pissed off I was actually happy when he died. Then, it was revealed he only “died” and I got pissed again. Unless they show him in S4 realizing his S3 behaviour was terrible, the show won’t be worth watching for me anymore. I’ll stick with rewatching S1&S2 only.
When Bob died in S2, I was also pissed off, but thought it could make for interesting PTSD drama for Joyce in S3. I was hoping Hop would be sensitive and help her get through it. I figured they would eventually become a couple, but only in S4 and more or less only when Hop became as caring and sensitive as Bob. Instead, she gets one scene of missing Bob and a couple of nods to him here and there in S3, then we move on to the disgusting version of Hop. Pathetic.
I was also slightly hoping they would ultimately critique the trope, but like you said, they doubled down in the last episode of S3.
What makes all of this worse is how many people say they like Angry Hop even more than previous Flawed But Growing Hop. That includes David Harbour, the actor who plays him. Grrr.
The one thing I hadn’t picked up on was the connection to 80s tropes (Magnum PI, etc), since I’m too young to be familiar with those movies. But that makes sense, in retrospect. I don’t have any 80s nostalgia (I like the show on its own merit), but you’re right they pulling from the past can be dangerous in the way you describe.
The writing team of Stranger Things absolutely needs to see this
"Guys like Hopper dont need a relationship. What they need is therapy"
"GUYS LIKE HOPPER DONT NEED A RELATIONSHIP. WHAT THEY NEED IS THERAPY "
I needed to say it louder for the back
“Guys like Hopper don’t need a relationship.... THEY NEED THERAPY.”
Thank you! I thought I was the only one surprised and disappointed by Hopper's character doing an 180
To be honest hopper was a big disappointment. And sad part is there was a clear blueprint of where to go
In contrast to complaints about Hopper, I heard so many complaints about Joyce's character suddenly being so annoying. People said she was weighing down every scene by essentially mothering grown men the whole season, yelling in a shrill voice and just getting in the way. But seeing as how much Hopper changed in s3, it almost seems like they had to write Joyce that way. Which sucks because she's a wonderful character and it isn't her job to carry the emotional/intellectual burden of everyone around her. She was only that annoying because Hopper was to begin with.
I can't lie, lots of people said season 3 was excellent. I totally disagreed. I thought season 2 was way better. This continued to confirm that feeling.
I see a man that's stressed, thusly his rage. But that doesn't excuse it.
Especially with Joyce. That was just... Ridiculous. He was so cruel to her for no reason.
When I was watching I was like, why. Cant. They. Just. Be. Friends. Like most male female friendships in this show turn out romantic. To the detriment of Hopper and Joyce, them too.
Watching this season, I didn't realize what bothered me about it. I think I especially detested the "Red Dawn-esque" portrayal of Soviet-era Russians. It is entrenched in American nationalism and xenophobia, it is just propaganda modernized. It sucked.
they also,, completely lost shift in the general plot. the last two seasons were focused merely on will. he wasn't the *main* character, but he was a very, very important character. i get that they wanted to shift the plot a little,, but they completely erased the significant importance of will, and with it, most of the mystery plotline they were heavily leaning against for the last two seasons.
Great video and very much looking forward to your video on the “heroic sacrifice.” It’s an easy way of making an abusive character a hero without actually making them do the work of self improvement or taking responsibility for the horrible things they’ve done.
Bob was the best, I’ve had people say “but hopper is a catch”. Nah man, BOB was a catch!
As a trans guy, I really couldn't help looking up to martyrs. To me, dying silently for a cause was a perfect bookend for a life. As I aged, I came to realise that my respect for martyrs is a fantasy. The truth is that there is much more strength in living than dying. There are no endings. Life continues and your death becomes nothing as time goes by. There is nothing as powerful as just living, instead of taking the coward's way out and allowing people to falsely label it as heroic.
“Dying is easy, young man, living is harder”
Sometimes dying for a cause is actually the better option, but that's a very individual and personal choice to make. Only a clear insight into your own psyche can allow you to see through the supposed deeply held beliefs down to the underlying fantasy, and sometimes the reverse is also true. The real evil in this case isn't dying or not dying, it's basing your decision on self-delusion and choosing not to do the hard work of digging to the deepest layers of truth within yourself that you're capable of. Living in spite of it all is indeed very powerful, but so is dying for a cause, so long as it's without self-pity or self-delusion.
Space Wolves: *Screams in non-Codex compliant*
Coming back to this video and wanted to bring up a point about Billy - Max’s brother. Stranger Things uses the heroic sacrifice trope on a man who was shown to be racist and abusive, and essentially absolves him through sacrifice. They attempt to highlight (decently well) the complex relationship victims have with their abusers through Max’s monologue to his gravestone, but inevitably still absolve Billy without him having to apologize for any of his actions.
In addition to the commentary, I applaud the editing of this video, especially using Winona's TV viewing as a framing device.
Thanks, I appreciate you saying so.
The editing is so beautiful in these essays
Everyone's saying that Seasons 3 is the best season so far but I think Stranger Things has degraded so much. It's so shallow compared to the seasons before. I was SO happy when the season finally ended.
Another issue is when a character behaves in problematic ways and we either dismiss it or blame it on the character when most of the times the writers are at fault. Many times the behavior doesn't fit with the character and that means the problems are with the creators who are the direct people who interact with a society that perpetuates and normalize certain behaviors.(sorry if I didn't explain properly, english isn't my main language)
Yes, to everything you presented here. As somebody who grew up in the 80's and dated then, everything you touched on here was so very spot on. These kind of media themes do make a difference, and influence real life relationships more than any of us like to admit.
Thank you so much for addressing Hopper’s shift, it was so unsettling in season 3, especially when Hopper drunkenly barged into El’s room. That freaked me out.
Watching this late and oh my god - I now remember how uncomfortable it was to watch Hopper through s3... it seemed so out of character and violent, I hated most scenes with him
Fun fact: Sean Astin, the guy who plays Bob Newby, also plays Raphael in the TMNT (2012) cartoon, who had the best romantic relationship in that show.
I hated season three, and Hopper's change was one of the main reasons. I really liked Bob; I knew he would be killed, but I really wanted him to live because he was good for Joyce and would be a good dad for Mike.
According to this video, I was apparently the only person that saw Bob’s kindness as legitimate
When I watched season 3 I was *immediately* repulsed by Hopper's personality change. Ruined the entire show for me, and I haven't bothered with season 4 because of it.
he’s much better in season 4 you should watch it
@@micheal009 he doesn’t really do anything in s 4. His relationship with Joyce is rushed and uninteresting, he doesn’t address how terrible he was before he “died” and he doesn’t even have screen time with El, barely even talks about her.
As a person who grew up with a father with anger issues, I can attest that it causes emotional damage. I also came to see that such men weoponise their lack of anger management in order to intimidate and control. They don't learn how to control their emotions because their lack of self control is a source of power.
Your videos are always so amazingly researched!
It's the same crap that adults tell little girls : "If he pulls your hair, it's because he likes you"
No, it's because he's a little brat that needs to be raised better.
I DID like her. I even gave her my two front teeth.
Also took me a second to get this bcoz of a very different interpretation of pulls your hair
I got as far as episode 6 of season 3. The anger, the non-stop yelling, swearing and violence o f season 3 just became unbearable. It turned into an abusive relationship, toward me, the viewer. I had to walk away. It's too bad the writers and directors decided to go that route.
Is it really so much to ask for that a couple on screen look like they are actually improving each other's lives?
How about that strange Coke ad in the middle of an important part of the show
At first I thought that he might have been poisoned from being in the upside down but no it was just backwards writing.
Yeah, I remember thinking at the beginning of season 3, "Since when did Hopper become a reclusive drunk?"
Ah, ye olde toxic masculinity... How nostalgic!
We need Bobs to be normalised! Thank you so much for these videos!! very important discourse...
Bob was better than Hopper or Hooper or whatever, change my mind.
I won't. You are absolutely right.
You're right and you should say it. Bob was a sweetheart.
I've enjoyed all your essays so far. With this video, my dislike for toxic relationships and domineering masculinity is being explained clearly. I couldn't explain it satisfyingly to myself before.
I was absolutely one of those that expected Bob to be secretly evil and his death was a goddamn crime.
I love the delivery of the line: "what they need ... is therapy."
Straight up cried when Bob died. I was so excited for their HEATHY relationship! Also, season 2 Hopper was my favorite character. 😞
Season 3 might as well not even be the same show. Season 1-2 had a grim, mysterious atmosphere, and it was shot with sort of a serious, cinematic kind of way that made it feel like a movie. S3 lost its atmosphere in an effort to cash in on all "dat 80's NOSTALGIA" by over doing all the bright neon and references. And every clip I see from s3 looks so bland, it makes me glad I didn't continue it. Its a major shame about Hopper too...I mean just look at him! S1-S2 Hopper had such an air of sadness, now he might as well be Peter Griffin. You can tell just by looking at him that he is different. He was my favorite character in S1...and they ruined him.
Also the smoking. The "I feel nostalgic" thing is bringing back a lot of characters smoking, doing to today kids what it did to me in the past: internalizing that smoking=being cool.
Thank you so much for this video, it was magnificent!!
What I hated the most about season 3 is the annoying way characters behave for the sake of "comedy". But instead of making me laugh, it just made me hate the characters
Thank you SO much for this video! I watched season 3 with my best friend and we ended up hating it, and this was reason #1 as to why. Season 3 Hopper was such a drastic, horrifying deviation from him in S1 and S2, it was honestly infuriating to watch. He treated both Eleven and Joyce horribly this season, with Joyce receiving the worst of it due to them being together throughout. He yelled at her, belittled her, distrusted her, refused to listen to her, mock her, and worst of all he refused to care even a little bit about her feelings on anything. At no point in the season did he stop to think that maybe, just maybe, she wasn't interested in him because she still harbored various feelings for Bob, who DIED protecting them! She loved him, and lost him, and was barely given time to grieve before Hopper this season wanted to jump right into a relationship. Which to me comes off extremely poorly given how long he was allowed to grieve his own losses with his failed marriage and the loss of his daughter, but Joyce not so much? What?!
And then in the end he died, leaving Joyce in the same position she was in in season 2, where someone she 'supposedly' loves dies. If I felt anything for anyone this season it was her and Will again and again because no one around them seemed to care about how they felt despite 2 prior seasons giving characters PLENTY of reasons to care! Fans loved that this season was different and didn't care that characters were reduced to caricatures of their previous selves but it's what made this season so much worse! (Among other things...)
And finally someone is pointing out Harrison Fords abusive characters. All his biggest movies from the eighties have them, Star Wars, Indiana Jones and Blade Runner. I never liked those "romances" he had but no one else seemed to bother, so thank you for bringing it up!
Putting aside the belligerent romance aspect - already disturbing on its own - there's another bigger danger to nostalgia that needs to be addressed which is not just confined to wholeheartedly embracing past cultural trends either in an implied sense, or overtly like in STRANGER THINGS: it doesn't help us attempt to move forward and evolve as well-rounded, resourceful, insightful and creative individuals that could improve not only our current arts, culture and society, but the future of the world as a whole.
I always get SO sick and tired of people actually talking about the "good ol'days" whenever something happens in the present that makes them lament or feel like things used to be better in the past - when, for a fact, the "good ol' days" weren't really THAT good. If we were to reflect on our history, either individually (with cases like familial abuse, traumatic episodes, etc.) or collectively (like wars, societal divides, economic inequalities, etc.), which is also reflected in certain degrees in the art and culture of the past that makes them products of their time that many of us were raised in as children, then it not only becomes addictive to live in the past, but also dangerous in conforming to certain perceived notions of the past that were either glorified to a certain extent by conservative view points, or entirely glossed over in order to avoid offending certain sensitivities. And when certain facts and records regarding previous events, periods or people (including mistakes) are distorted either to avoid current sensitivities or appear politically correct in the present (leading to certain views that themselves become dated), we also run the risk of people ignoring, rather than acknowledging and improving upon, those mistakes, allowing them to be repeated in the future with possibly WORSE consequences for future generations.
We CAN'T and SHOULDN'T, under ANY AND ALL circumstances, continually ignore or even fantasize about how we had it better "back then", including depictions in our arts and culture... especially not NOW since we are being exposed to more information that proves and disproves subjects that we only had a limited understanding of, and which debunks too many myths and misguided opinions. We have an obligation and responsibility to see what was wrong about our past and our perceptions of both the past and present, so that we can dispel the gentle lies of nostalgia, build up the courage to face harsh truths, and move forward to meet the demands that our established history has made - only then can we make a better life, a better world, a better future for ourselves!
It's even more disturbing to hear the laugh track during these toxic interactions
I went from loving Stranger Things, to hating it (to a point where just seeing photos of Harbour made me want to throw up in my mouth despite him being my type) and FINALLY SOMEONE PUT IT INTO WORDS. THANK YOU FOR THIS VIDEO. During the scene in the car where he threatened and scared the living shit out of Mike, I was expecting, PRAYING that he would crack at any moment and go 'sike' because I couldn't believe he was actually serious, I couldn't believe the radical change from who Hopper used to be. I'm so mad.
Season 3 Hopper is basically my stepdad. It was really hard to watch his interactions with El, because that's what my teen years were. I was unbelievably relieved when I was able to move out
You make me hate everything i love, thanks
I think the only long-running healthy onscreen relationship I can think of is the one between Peter and Elizabeth Burke in White Collar (2009-2014). The characters treat each other with respect, they're both willing to be emotionally vulnerable, they're supportive of each other's choices, and they're quite funny. It's a lot of fun to watch them interact. It's also worth noting that Peter, an FBI agent, would have been easy for the writers to imbue with a variety of toxic tropes, but that didn't happen. The show also deserves props for treating the lesbian relationship of a supporting character as being just as normal (and treated just as respectfully) as a straight relationship.
love the editing on this one! seeing joyce/the kids watching the footage with repulsed or bored expressions made me chuckle. Also, wow i really didnt like s3 now that i think about it. on top of the whole red scare plot (yikes) is this bs.
Hopper used to be my favorite character; but they really botched this one. Something that puts it into perspective with me is that if you didn't know his character through the first two seasons, and you saw how he was only in the third, most people would think him unstable in an abusive way. I think I would see his character as a lot more like Billy's early on, which is certainly not a good thing.
I learned from this video that, yes, Samwise Gamgee would, in fact, make a better spouse than Hellboy
Bob was great, everyone treated like he was nerd just because he wasn't a form of toxic masculinity.
This whole toxic masculinity also falls onto the kids, Max breaking up with i forgot his name for no reason and encouraging El to do the same and then the boys talking anout the girls like "theyre a different species" that was gross
I haven't even watched season 3, but I love these videos so much.
Be warned, spoilers for Season 3 exist in this video!😮 Watch if you dare!😁😉
My parents never paid attention to me unless they were mad so I related fights with intimacy.... Thank you for this video, I'm growing and learning how to not me aggressive bc it's not who I am. My entire life my dad told me that if a man treats you too well it's because he is cheating, like wtf??? Anyway, thank you for the video, it helped me a lot
But seriously Bob was a real one and it just super reminded me of my crush on Sean Astin.
Just imagine a guy showing you only the raging and kindness without remorse.
Imagine you have to live with that guy.
Imagine there's not only one but two of those guys you have to live with.
Because one of them is your father and the other one your brother.
That was my life
This is one thing that I greatly appreciate about The Hunger Games. In the end, Katniss realizes that Gale's tough, might-makes-right survival instincts actually stem from the same root as the ideologies that drive the Capitol (and District 13), while Peeta's sensitivity and relentlessly self-giving love (no matter what it costs him) are what equip him to be a better human and ultimately the better partner. There is no doubt in my mind that subconsciously, Peeta helped deconstruct many toxic ideas of masculinity that I had picked up as a child.