This is a new type of video for me, looking at fiction and seeing its influences. Please tell me your thoughts and views on it, as it would be very interesting to me.
I like seeing how old myths evolve. There are many more modern stories that are conglomerations of myths and new ideas. Through the looking glass would be a hoot to unravel what’s entwined lol
My partner wrote his thesis on LOTR from a pop-culture perspective (pop culture at the time of its writing that is) and talked about a lot of similar things 😁
Yes, the whole "anthropomorphic personifications of universal concepts" on the surface just looks like pantheism, but I always had a sense that there was an interesting difference, but never could put a finger on what it was. Would like to hear your thoughts@@Crecganford
For those looking for in depth examinations of Tolkien’s work, check out the large collection of both popular and academic work by Thomas Shippey. He is considered to be one of (if not the) foremost commentators on Tolkien. Now retired, he taught at Oxford using a syllabus developed by Tolkien and also held the same chair at University of Leeds that Tolkien did. One of his best known books is The Road to Middle Earth. He also wrote a very interesting book mapping the myth of Heracles onto the ancient Celtic road system of Western Europe and its astronomical connections. And, yes, there was a quite extensive road system in pre-Roman Gaul whose complexity and accuracy of surveying shows that its occupants were not the unsophisticated barbarians that the Greeks and Romans liked to make them out to be.
Terry Pratchett is the only author I miss I wish Lyn could finish the books that he didn’t have the time to complete.I would love to hear your take on the Disc world he created 😂❤🎉❤ I adore reading them aloud and inserting my own fooynote😅s
A challenge, trying to cover all of Tolkien's world in one video. You could easily do a deep dive into any one element of his mythology. The important thing to me is that Tolkien was influenced by all these sources, but he didn't sit down to interpret a specific myth: he wrote his stories as they occurred to him, though the stories and myths he knew may have influenced him less consciously. For instance, he wanted dwarves for The Hobbit, but didn't want to have to create a bunch of names, so he stole them from The Eddas; but he didn't consciously base the characters or the story on the Norse poems -- which isn't to say they had no influence on the work.
Any Native American mythology would be interesting - comparisons of tribal creation stories, cosmology and comparisons of constellations and their stories, future predictive stories, etc.
@@Crecganford Do the Indigenous Australians too. I was raised in Australia and no nothing of their mythologies. I know the word dreamtime, but don't really know what that is. (or have you done that)
I think a mythological influence of note is Apollo. Finrod Felagund is a pretty Apollonian character. He is an agent of order and society and a creative spirit.
Tolkien said he did not appreciate Wagner and that he had been influenced more by the same stories that inspired Wagner than Wagner himself. But I suspect you're right, that he was more influenced by The Ring Cycle than he would admit.
Yeah, Tolkien was trying to re-write Wagner’s Ring Cycle, and liberalize it, ie make it less fascist. That’s the whole point of LOTR. Tolkien secretly loved Wagner’s Ring Cycle and the myths that inspired it, but because of the outbreaks of WWI and WWII, Tolkien wanted to make a sort of British / vaguely anti-fascist version of the Ring Cycle, so he came up with LOTR. Many of the characters are similar, like Sauron being based off Alberich and the Istari being like Wotan in wanderer-form.
Amazing video! I'm so glad you delved into this universe, Tolkien left us so much to explore. Thank you for this, I was happily surprised to see you cover LOTR and hope you make more fantasy inspired vids! :)
I really enjoyed the video! :) I know your forté is cultures that are forged in the british isles, but are you aware of how finnish and finnic folklore epic "Kalevala" influenced Tolkiens world, such as story of Turin, Quenyan language and the names of the creator Eru Iluvatar and Sauron? (Ilmatar, Annatar?) Thank you for what you do, it is always a treat to put on a crecganford video. ❤
Great video! Really interesting how Tolkein took all these elements and welded them together into his own mythology. I'd recommend 'JRR Tolkien' by Humphrey Carpenter as a really good book about the man, which also sheds a lot of light on this subject
I would love for you to do a deep dive into the mythology of Discworld. I credit Terry Pratchett, more than anyone else, for my love of stories and world building. I don't know how he managed to have humour like the time Death went fly fishing with the primordial lure, that would drag the fish out of the water, and then have such devestatingly poignant quotes like Von Lipwig's, ''Do you not know that a man is not dead while his name is still spoken?" I know other authors have done it but none, I think, did it with the same sense of magic that Pratchett was able to accomplish. GNU Terry Pratchett
I love how well you cover Middle Earth and how it relates to Mythologies of our World. I've read the books.... Hobbit not very much, maybe 3 or 4 times, LoTR over 50 times [I actually counted it up when the movies came out], and The Sillmarillian probably 25 times? Not to mention Lost Tales, Unfinished Tales, et al. But I have read his stuff with much joy, and I'm enjoying your [and your friend's take on it] very much, because it is confirming those links I felt were there. And as someone who is working on working myth into the reality of a world I want to write in myself, its enjoyable to see how other Fictional worlds can relate to it all.
I am always interested in Tolkien analyses and I very much enjoyed this. I'll also join in on the chorus for a dive into Terry Pratchett's world but I do have a different request of my own: Ursula Le Guin. She seems to have written many of her works with an anthropological lens, so there is likely a variety of mythology she would have borrowed from. Earthsea is the most obvious but even the Hainish universe likely has its inspirations in mythology.
Star Wars is also based off Wagner’s Ring Cycle. Similar characters and themes, ie Palpatine is Alberich, Darth Vader is Wotan, Luke Skywalker is Sigfried, the Force is the Ring, extinction of Jedi is like extinction of Aesir, blowing up Deathstar is like destruction of Ring on funeral pyre at the end of the Ring Cycle, Leia is sorta Brunhilde, Obi Wan Kenobi is Wotan as a wanderer (similar to Gandalf), etc. Star Wars is like a dumbed down Americanized version of the Ring Cycle.
What is interesting about Tolkien is that he built a mythology in a similar way that human societies did using previous existing stories with the difference that he did in a few years what the "natural" evolution of storytelling would take centuries.
@hubwil89 He "copy-pasted", combined and evolved. Just like the Greeks did (and there is proof of that)). Just like later civilizations "plagiarized" the Akkadians and Sumerians. If you follow this channel, you should that.
Incorrect, he ripped it off of Wagner’s Ring Cycle. Tolkien was writing a Ring of the Nibelung fan fiction. It’s totally ripped off Wagner’s Ring Cycle to the point of being a quasi-parody of it. Not originally developed at all, it’s a derivative work of fiction based off the Ring Cycle.
JRR Tolkien was by profession a linguist. His inspiration for his tales was primarily linguistic. He was a man who liked to invent languages! His stories were originally developed as background for the languages he'd invented. Much of the Silmarillion was written long before LOTR and even before The Hobbit, which was intended as a book for children. JRRT had wanted to publish his "Silmarillion" after the success of The Hobbit, but his publisher said it wasn't marketable so Tolkien instead turned to developing a sequel to The Hobbit. The very long process of writing LOTR is well and carefully documented by his son Christopher in a series of books drawn from his father's notes and reflections and is a fascinating story in its own right.
Tolkien didn't wrote these tales as a backdrop for his invented languages. What nonsense. He wrote this in 1951 to Waldman: "But an equally basic passion of mine ab initio was for myth (not allegory!) and for fairy-story, and above all for heroic legend on the brink of fairy-tale and history, of which there is far too little in the world (accessible to me) for my appetite. I was an undergraduate before thought and experience revealed to me that these were not divergent interests - opposite poles of science and romance - but integrally related. I am not ‘learned’ in the matters of myth and fairy-story, however, for in such things (as far as known to me) I have always been seeking material, things of a certain tone and air, and not simple knowledge. Also - and here I hope I shall not sound absurd - I was from early days grieved by the poverty of my own beloved country: it had no stories of its own (bound up with its tongue and soil), not of the quality that I sought, and found (as an ingredient) in legends of other lands. There was Greek, and Celtic, and Romance, Germanic, Scandinavian, and Finnish (which greatly affected me); but nothing English, save impoverished chap-book stuff. Of course there was and is all the Arthurian world, but powerful as it is, it is imperfectly naturalized, associated with the soil of Britain but not with English; and does not replace what I felt to be missing. For one thing its ‘faerie’ is too lavish, and fantastical, incoherent and repetitive. For another and more important thing: it is involved in, and explicitly contains the Christian religion." He was very clear that from an early age he was saddened that England didn't have english mythological stories of it's own and so he started building his own imaginative world which he felt wasn't authentic without it's own languages.
As a fan of The Lord of tne Rings, this prompted me to read some of Tolkien's other works. The Silmarillion & Unfinished Tails were very intriguing. My experience of mythology is limited, but I was able to see where some of these works were sourced.
Just a quick note, Tolkien did explain a bit of what happens to Men's souls. They go to Mandos but then 'leave the cirles of the world,' which is special because it means they are not bound to the existence of Arda. Beren's greatest feat may have been delaying leaving the halls of Mandos until Luthien could come and move him to Pity. Also, in the Athrabeth, Finrod the elf suggests that this transcendence of the world was connected to Illuvatar's first plan to heal the world.
The end state of Humans was not revealed by Eru, which is why I assume "leave the circles of the world" is really thought of as a _future_ event, once Eru is finished with the world that exists. I think the problem is that the timeline of Middle-earth and then the transition to our time is somehow independent of time in Valinor.
@@TheDanEdwardsThe problem with determining the afterlife of humans is that Tolkien’s Middle Earth stories were always written from the Elvish POV, and how would they know?
I love your videos, always informative and entertaining. Fantasy is my preferred literature so anything you can do expand on those would be fantastic. I would also be interested to hear about British myth and legend; the Arthurian stories, Robin Hood, and other folk tales that may have links with our ancient history. Or in a similar vein "magic" items such as the Gàe Bulg, or Excalibur.
Thank you for your consideration of Tolkien's work! If you have the opportunity, consider Slavic mythology, the difference between West Slavic and East Slavic, and its proximity to other Indo-European cultures.
Loved this video sir. Lord of the Rings is actually what got me so interested in comparative mythology. I think there’s so much more to discuss just on the lord of the rings books. So much inspiration from various religions and cultures
In the Book of Lost Tales the Valar of the oceans is called Ylmer instead of Ulmo. I remember thinking about the names in protoindoeuropean Myth reconstructions
@@Crecganford I was given the first book in 2000 for my birthday. There’s so many things (Kari Al’Thor, Fain is a family name,etc) that connected to my life that I became completely consumed by the series. I am also very small town, so that rang true as well for me lol
Melkor didn’t want to destroy the world, he wanted to create living things of his own. When he couldn’t do that (only Eru could create life) he got angry and over time he instead corrupted things in order to put his mark on the world. Sauron didn’t just want to rule the world, he wanted to create order in world (like an all powerful dictator).
Another interesting video, I love relaxing to the wonderful storytelling style while learning. Much respect. I watched a fascinating presentation of a professor at Gresham college on the subject of cursed objects found in England dating back to pagan Roman period. He ended with a brief tale of the power of cursed objects, stating that a curse was found in a temple for the thief of a stolen ring, this well described ring was found miles away millennia later…by none other than amateur/hobbyist archaeologist, Tolkien.
@@Crecganford Yes! It was Hutton. He is very knowledgeable and entertaining. I did note some scholarly disagreement in commentary on one of his presentations, of course it was mostly over my head unfamiliar with the specific subject matter. If you have time and inclination, would you care to elaborate where you have disagreed? *thank you for all you do, I’m obsessed with your channel!
thx for sharing these i think that him JRR tolkien got much inspiration from the Nordic asatru tales and mythology stories that made him more into those stuff and drawn into it
I applaud such a bold endeavour, and I hope you carry it further, whether with Tolkien and/or other authors. However, I‘m here to step into the discussion: although indeed Melkor has basicly existed since the dawn of creation, I believe his maleficence is not meant to be interpreted as inherent to him (or the world). He, like all other beings, has always been granted the faculty of freedom, as much as they‘d never be denied the opportunity of repentance. In what might be seen as Tolkien‘s reinterpretation of „theodice“, even though Eru could’ve easily intervened whenever, evil is self-arisen but also self-destructed; because ultimately good did not traditionally triumph in the end (since Frodo too succumbs too the One Ring), but actually endured and contributed just enough for evil to eventually defeat itself „eucataclysmically“. Therefore, even though I partake in no abrahamic belief myself, I acclaim such view of a non-morally-dualistic world. And as such, I find it hard for it to be compatible with any manichean cosmovision, including zoroastrianism. But thanks nonetheless, for such an eternal conception of good and evil does seem like a plausible assumption to be made in antiquity; which I find quite entertaining even if I do not abide. On further note, I‘d be very interested in morality systems of different cultures through time and space as reflected in their myths. As Socrates might‘ve once asked: "Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?"
Please cover the manga One Piece. I watch you to learn more about mythology, so I can understand world building more. It's impossible for me to convey how much you would love his world. Every video I watch of yours I always find things I can relate to One Piece.
This was interesting and enjoyable, but you certainly could do a deeper dive into all of these topics should you choose. Also, my understanding is that some of Tolkien’s ideas were draw from non-Indo-European sources (such as Turambar, who apparently was inspired by Finnish myth). I hope you will do some follow-ups.
It's almost heartbreaking when Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf, and Frodo board that last ship and it sails off into the sunset - not just over an ocean but through a veil that no man can ever follow them through - it is as if the last magic is departing the world. Because they are no longer needed - the last Dark Lord has been defeated, and it's very much as though the idea was "you guys will be able to take it from here - you're on your own."
I was surprised (in a good way!) to see a video from you appearing that goes about Tolkien. It's a great addition to your channel. Many books/movies (mostly fantasy, but other genres as well) take inspiration from real world mythology. It can be great to see the influences that some books/movies have from real world mythology. Harry Potter and The Golem and the Djinni are also great works that have influences from real world myths.
I clicked so fast on the link of the Unofficial Guide to Tolkien's World, only to find out it will only be released on November 14th, how sad. I love your take on Tolkien, and I'd love to see a video like this for Terry Pratchett. Great work.
This is a very good introductory video about Tolkien's mithology. But I rather expected more... I mean, a deeper delving into particular miths or stories (those of the Silmarillion, especially). Tolkien is known to be a scientist into Indoeuopean studies and language, which he said were the main source of his inspiration. Also, there is a Finish connection related to elves' languages and culture. But he affirmed his world was not Celtic, and on several occasions he seemed to refuse direct Celtic connections. I expect other videos upon this subject and I heartily congratulate you for this one.
Thank you for this. Absolutely fascinating. I have read LoTR about 50 times. I get something out of it every time and your video just gave me much much more. Thank you
Thanks very much for your overview of JRRT's sources for his mythologized universe. Perhaps you have seen the In Deep Geek channels videos on Tolkiens work. The vids are very detailed and well done and sometimes go deep into the rabbit hole seeking. I highly recommend the channel for its content and enjoyment.
Brother you are on FIRE i found you like 2 weeks ago and im almost done binging your videos. Thank you im a lore Geek, fron my history adiction , and i love these stories
Maybe I didn't pay enough attention, but I didn’t hear you mentioning Sauron as the Eye being influenced by Balor (Balaihr) the Fomorian God from the Irish myths. It's a very powerful image.
You should look up professor Thijs Porck from Leiden University!! He is amazing and has actually thaught us in class about the relationship between old English and Tolkien. One of the best professors out there and I think you would like him (and I think he would like your content a lot as well) Also, I love your videos and as a historian I really like the accuarcy of them
Another great video. I believe that a second great influence on Tolkien's work is his experiences in the trenches of the first world war combined with his love of languages and mythology.
He didn't spend too much time in the trenches as he was hospitalised for much of his time in the army. And so it is felt that this wasn't as significant influence on his work as his faith in Christianity.
I would like to see a video about the mythological influences on Harry Potter. I have noted some Greek influence, but a larger view of the cultural background would be nice. Most Videos I have seen about Rowling's Wizarding World is more technical and theory from within the world than a view of the larger legends and mythology.
I think Tolkien's world is a very good fit to your channel and would love to see a much deeper dive. I think his work could even be treated as if it was mythology and be analyzed and interpreted the same way. The only difference to mythology is that it was a single know author being aware (I assume :) ) he's writing fiction. While other fictional work could be similar interesting, thinking of Terry Pratchett for example, I don't think it's that close to mythology as Tolkien's work is.
A story that would be interesting for you to cover, but that isn't myth-based is "The Gammage Cup". How a group of people are influenced by strange writings from a book that arrives in their isolated village.
The Bible 6 day was a recreation and replenishing of the cosmos including the Earth and followed the second to last flood that being the flood of Noah's days. This recreator resting on the 7th day is the best example of melchor
I read somewhere that Tolkien was also influenced by the Finnish/Finland epic known as the Kalevala. Vainamoinen from the Kaleval reminds me a lot of Gandalf. Tolkien's Elvish language, Quenya, is very similar, or at least a lot of the words are similar to words in the actual Finnish language.
That was great. I am interested in the idea that Gandalf was a Christianised version of Of Odin. Would be fascinated at how Tolkien blended he is own personal faith with his love of pagan mythology.
Wagner’s Ring Cycle. Gandalf is like the fatherly wanderer version of Wotan (ie Odin) from Wagner’s Ring Cycle, who looks out for Sigfried, same as how Gandalf is fatherly and looks out for Frodo.
First of all, thank you for great videos :) Yes, I would love to see more of these fiction and mythology videos. I don't think there is no mythological basis for ents. What about slavic Leshy? :)
It's not said where humans go when they died but it's a different place than elves'. That's why it's so dramatic that Arwen chose to stay with Aragorn because that means she would be separated from her father Elrond and the rest of the elves forever. That's the price for choosing humanity.
Melkor and his agent Sauron aren't so much evil as their goal is to undo the creation and replace it with their own flawed version. Like Zoarastrian they oppose the 'Light' and are therefore beings of the Darkness, the world of Shadow.
Nice! I like this a lot, and would like to listen to more influences of fiction. My favorite book series is The Malazan Book of the Fallen by Steven Erikson, and It would be interesting to have your opinion on its influences.
Please do more Tolkien! I was so immersed and then it was over. Btw, how strong of an influence do you think Christian myth played in his works? Has it been overstated? And crucially, where did he diverge from Christianity and instead went with a Pagan cosmology
I really appreciate your sharing of scholarship it substantially helps me in my historical interpretation for visitors. I would not like to see you going into pop culture narrative comparisons done so well by let’s say ‘in deep geek’ or sharing the characters archetypes in modern story as seen in Jordan Peterson lectures 2017. However I would love to see you in discussion with in deep geek going over the Jungian Archetype stuff that would be a fertile area I believe. For you regular presentations how about going smaller and into folklore and legend perhaps the Scandinavian supernatural the Nuckelavee is a super scary monster, bloody hell is it. Or even go Creganory with the oldest stories simply told Please just keep doing what you do what ever you decide
Thank you for commenting, it does seem that less people like these videos, but those who do, really like them. Perhaps this kind of content should be on a different channel. Something I shall ponder.
It’s because your content is so clean and focused it’s a compliment really. But look at in deep geek his content in the pop culture fantasy field is top notch although does not bring in your study try a collaboration ? I so want a Creganory Channel something my daughter may enjoy at bedtime.
This is great, but you’re missing a huge influence, which is Wagner’s Ring of the Nibelung. LOTR is basically a liberalized version of Wagner’s Ring Cycle, although Tolkien himself tried to obscure this because of the Ring Cycle’s association with fascism. But Sauron, for example, is directly based off Alberich from the Ring Cycle, Gandalf and Sauruman are sort of based off Wotan, Frodo is a liberalized version of Sigfried, etc. The elves leaving middle earth was based off the death of the Aesir at the end of the Ring Cycle, which was sort of a metaphor for the extinction of Nordic people by Wagner. Tolkien went out of his way to obscure this, but it’s very clear if you study Wagner’s Ring of the Nibelung and then LOTR that Tolkien based made a fan-fiction off Wagner’s Ring Cycle, but tried to make it less fascist (hobbits are small and humble rather than tall blonde aryan warriors like Sigfried, etc).
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This is a new type of video for me, looking at fiction and seeing its influences. Please tell me your thoughts and views on it, as it would be very interesting to me.
Was Tolkien referring to the two trees as a comparison to the two trees in the garden of Eden, the tree of life and the tree of knowledge?
I like seeing how old myths evolve. There are many more modern stories that are conglomerations of myths and new ideas. Through the looking glass would be a hoot to unravel what’s entwined lol
Curious what you would make of Netflix's Bright, an urban fantasy in modern day Los Angeles.
There is a lot of Slavic mythology mixed into his Epic fantasy.
My partner wrote his thesis on LOTR from a pop-culture perspective (pop culture at the time of its writing that is) and talked about a lot of similar things 😁
I'd love to see you cover mythological influence in Neil Gaiman's works, as well as Terry Pratchet. They're two of my favorite contemporary authors!
I am pondering this, and shall ponder a little more.
Yes, the whole "anthropomorphic personifications of universal concepts" on the surface just looks like pantheism, but I always had a sense that there was an interesting difference, but never could put a finger on what it was. Would like to hear your thoughts@@Crecganford
Yes, Pratchett is an excellent suggestion. Always liked the idea if the world on the back of a turtle flying through the universe.
For those looking for in depth examinations of Tolkien’s work, check out the large collection of both popular and academic work by Thomas Shippey. He is considered to be one of (if not the) foremost commentators on Tolkien. Now retired, he taught at Oxford using a syllabus developed by Tolkien and also held the same chair at University of Leeds that Tolkien did. One of his best known books is The Road to Middle Earth. He also wrote a very interesting book mapping the myth of Heracles onto the ancient Celtic road system of Western Europe and its astronomical connections. And, yes, there was a quite extensive road system in pre-Roman Gaul whose complexity and accuracy of surveying shows that its occupants were not the unsophisticated barbarians that the Greeks and Romans liked to make them out to be.
Whats the name of the book he wrote bout the celtic road system
@@felixh5748 there's a book about the celtic mapping and road systems by Graham Robb called the discovery of middle earth.
Terry Pratchett is the only author I miss I wish Lyn could finish the books that he didn’t have the time to complete.I would love to hear your take on the Disc world he created 😂❤🎉❤ I adore reading them aloud and inserting my own fooynote😅s
OMG, Crecganford on Tolkien! Before first breakfast even! I am ecstatic.
Two of my biggest passions ❤ Indo-European mythology and Tolkien. Thank you Professor!
A challenge, trying to cover all of Tolkien's world in one video. You could easily do a deep dive into any one element of his mythology. The important thing to me is that Tolkien was influenced by all these sources, but he didn't sit down to interpret a specific myth: he wrote his stories as they occurred to him, though the stories and myths he knew may have influenced him less consciously.
For instance, he wanted dwarves for The Hobbit, but didn't want to have to create a bunch of names, so he stole them from The Eddas; but he didn't consciously base the characters or the story on the Norse poems -- which isn't to say they had no influence on the work.
Hahaha what about "second breakfast" hehehe that got me so good 😅 love it!
Love this direction. Game of Thrones, Narnia, Arthur, Star Wars, Babylon 5, American Gods, among others would be appointment viewing
I love your work!!! You should do the indigenous American origin stories. They're very interesting. Specifically the ....popol vu... spelling is hard
Thank you. I am planning on doing this next year.
Great idea. I would add 'A Story as Sharp as a Knife: The Classical Haida Mythtellers and Their World''
Any Native American mythology would be interesting - comparisons of tribal creation stories, cosmology and comparisons of constellations and their stories, future predictive stories, etc.
@@Crecganford Do the Indigenous Australians too. I was raised in Australia and no nothing of their mythologies. I know the word dreamtime, but don't really know what that is.
(or have you done that)
I think a mythological influence of note is Apollo. Finrod Felagund is a pretty Apollonian character. He is an agent of order and society and a creative spirit.
Also Fëanor can be seen as a mix between Adam and Promethee.
next time you can do Wagner's "Der Ring des Nibelungen". It is full of mythology and I always felt that Tolkien had to be partly inspired by it
That is an interesting idea, thank you for the suggestion.
@@Crecganford yes, please! 🫖
Tolkien said he did not appreciate Wagner and that he had been influenced more by the same stories that inspired Wagner than Wagner himself. But I suspect you're right, that he was more influenced by The Ring Cycle than he would admit.
Yeah, Tolkien was trying to re-write Wagner’s Ring Cycle, and liberalize it, ie make it less fascist. That’s the whole point of LOTR. Tolkien secretly loved Wagner’s Ring Cycle and the myths that inspired it, but because of the outbreaks of WWI and WWII, Tolkien wanted to make a sort of British / vaguely anti-fascist version of the Ring Cycle, so he came up with LOTR. Many of the characters are similar, like Sauron being based off Alberich and the Istari being like Wotan in wanderer-form.
@@camgilson1439 sounds a bit “Make Sunwheels Indo-European Again”, no?
Amazing video! I'm so glad you delved into this universe, Tolkien left us so much to explore. Thank you for this, I was happily surprised to see you cover LOTR and hope you make more fantasy inspired vids! :)
Glad you enjoyed it!
I really enjoyed the video! :) I know your forté is cultures that are forged in the british isles, but are you aware of how finnish and finnic folklore epic "Kalevala" influenced Tolkiens world, such as story of Turin, Quenyan language and the names of the creator Eru Iluvatar and Sauron? (Ilmatar, Annatar?)
Thank you for what you do, it is always a treat to put on a crecganford video. ❤
Ilmatar? There's a D&D god of martyrs named Ilmater. Never thought the name came from somewhere.
Mielikkki may also be familiar for those who read the Dragonlance books. Mielikki is the hostess/Queen goddes of the forest in finnish mythology
Thank you for making me aware of Antony Cummins's book, which Amazon tells me will see publication in November
Thank you for checking it out.
Dont do it between the pages broooo
Great video! Really interesting how Tolkein took all these elements and welded them together into his own mythology. I'd recommend 'JRR Tolkien' by Humphrey Carpenter as a really good book about the man, which also sheds a lot of light on this subject
Great video. I've been a Tolkien fan for decades and I enjoyed hearing your thoughts on the legendarium.
Thank you.
I would love for you to do a deep dive into the mythology of Discworld. I credit Terry Pratchett, more than anyone else, for my love of stories and world building. I don't know how he managed to have humour like the time Death went fly fishing with the primordial lure, that would drag the fish out of the water, and then have such devestatingly poignant quotes like Von Lipwig's, ''Do you not know that a man is not dead while his name is still spoken?"
I know other authors have done it but none, I think, did it with the same sense of magic that Pratchett was able to accomplish.
GNU Terry Pratchett
Gets my vote!! ❤
I would really love more videos about Tolkien and compared Mythology! There's a Lot to be said about the subject
I just learned that Frodo means wise from older English.
Yes, or more specifically someone who has grown wise.
@@Crecganford yes because it plays into the character of him and his journey I love the book and anything by Tolkien.
I love how well you cover Middle Earth and how it relates to Mythologies of our World. I've read the books.... Hobbit not very much, maybe 3 or 4 times, LoTR over 50 times [I actually counted it up when the movies came out], and The Sillmarillian probably 25 times? Not to mention Lost Tales, Unfinished Tales, et al. But I have read his stuff with much joy, and I'm enjoying your [and your friend's take on it] very much, because it is confirming those links I felt were there. And as someone who is working on working myth into the reality of a world I want to write in myself, its enjoyable to see how other Fictional worlds can relate to it all.
That sounds like an amazing amount of times to read them.
I am always interested in Tolkien analyses and I very much enjoyed this. I'll also join in on the chorus for a dive into Terry Pratchett's world but I do have a different request of my own: Ursula Le Guin. She seems to have written many of her works with an anthropological lens, so there is likely a variety of mythology she would have borrowed from. Earthsea is the most obvious but even the Hainish universe likely has its inspirations in mythology.
Thoroughly enjoyed that lecture. Being an avid Sci-fi fan I would love to hear your thoughts on Star Wars etc ❤❤❤❤😊
Star Wars is also based off Wagner’s Ring Cycle. Similar characters and themes, ie Palpatine is Alberich, Darth Vader is Wotan, Luke Skywalker is Sigfried, the Force is the Ring, extinction of Jedi is like extinction of Aesir, blowing up Deathstar is like destruction of Ring on funeral pyre at the end of the Ring Cycle, Leia is sorta Brunhilde, Obi Wan Kenobi is Wotan as a wanderer (similar to Gandalf), etc. Star Wars is like a dumbed down Americanized version of the Ring Cycle.
What is interesting about Tolkien is that he built a mythology in a similar way that human societies did using previous existing stories with the difference that he did in a few years what the "natural" evolution of storytelling would take centuries.
More like copy-pasted, including 95% of the names. He just created a mythologies-based fan fiction
@hubwil89 He "copy-pasted", combined and evolved. Just like the Greeks did (and there is proof of that)). Just like later civilizations "plagiarized" the Akkadians and Sumerians. If you follow this channel, you should that.
@@hubwil89 copy pasted....ahaha if its so easy, why don't you do it?
Incorrect, he ripped it off of Wagner’s Ring Cycle. Tolkien was writing a Ring of the Nibelung fan fiction. It’s totally ripped off Wagner’s Ring Cycle to the point of being a quasi-parody of it. Not originally developed at all, it’s a derivative work of fiction based off the Ring Cycle.
Maybe you'd be interested in sociology, it's ficus is social change, social ordering and how society is 'reproduced' and maintained.
I'd love to hear you talk about Terry Pratchet's works
seconded;)
JRR Tolkien was by profession a linguist. His inspiration for his tales was primarily linguistic. He was a man who liked to invent languages! His stories were originally developed as background for the languages he'd invented. Much of the Silmarillion was written long before LOTR and even before The Hobbit, which was intended as a book for children. JRRT had wanted to publish his "Silmarillion" after the success of The Hobbit, but his publisher said it wasn't marketable so Tolkien instead turned to developing a sequel to The Hobbit. The very long process of writing LOTR is well and carefully documented by his son Christopher in a series of books drawn from his father's notes and reflections and is a fascinating story in its own right.
Tolkien didn't wrote these tales as a backdrop for his invented languages. What nonsense. He wrote this in 1951 to Waldman: "But an equally basic passion of mine ab initio was for myth (not allegory!) and for fairy-story, and above all for heroic legend on the brink of fairy-tale and history, of which there is far too little in the world (accessible to me) for my appetite. I was an undergraduate before thought and experience revealed to me that these were not divergent interests - opposite poles of science and romance - but integrally related. I am not ‘learned’ in the matters of myth and fairy-story, however, for in such things (as far as known to me) I have always been seeking material, things of a certain tone and air, and not simple knowledge. Also - and here I hope I shall not sound absurd - I was from early days grieved by the poverty of my own beloved country: it had no stories of its own (bound up with its tongue and soil), not of the quality that I sought, and found (as an ingredient) in legends of other lands. There was Greek, and Celtic, and Romance, Germanic, Scandinavian, and Finnish (which greatly affected me); but nothing English, save impoverished chap-book stuff. Of course there was and is all the Arthurian world, but powerful as it is, it is imperfectly naturalized, associated with the soil of Britain but not with English; and does not replace what I felt to be missing. For one thing its ‘faerie’ is too lavish, and fantastical, incoherent and repetitive. For another and more important thing: it is involved in, and explicitly contains the Christian religion."
He was very clear that from an early age he was saddened that England didn't have english mythological stories of it's own and so he started building his own imaginative world which he felt wasn't authentic without it's own languages.
Three of my very favorite things❤❤❤ mythology, historical Ireland and Scotland, and history. MORE PLEASE 😊
I'm mortified that this video seemed to cause Jon too much grief to do again! What is wrong with people, lol😢
As a fan of The Lord of tne Rings, this prompted me to read some of Tolkien's other works. The Silmarillion & Unfinished Tails were very intriguing. My experience of mythology is limited, but I was able to see where some of these works were sourced.
I love your conclusion about the age of man and the disappearance of magic and music! I appreciate your work,
Midgard literally means "middle earth", Earendil is Old Saxon for the Morning Star, and there's a part of Brittany called Rohan.
Read Plato's Allegories, particularly the "Cave" and the "ring"...
Just a quick note, Tolkien did explain a bit of what happens to Men's souls. They go to Mandos but then 'leave the cirles of the world,' which is special because it means they are not bound to the existence of Arda. Beren's greatest feat may have been delaying leaving the halls of Mandos until Luthien could come and move him to Pity. Also, in the Athrabeth, Finrod the elf suggests that this transcendence of the world was connected to Illuvatar's first plan to heal the world.
The end state of Humans was not revealed by Eru, which is why I assume "leave the circles of the world" is really thought of as a _future_ event, once Eru is finished with the world that exists. I think the problem is that the timeline of Middle-earth and then the transition to our time is somehow independent of time in Valinor.
@@TheDanEdwards No, they are definitely said to only tarry in the halls of Mandos for a short time before leaving the the world entirely.
@@TheDanEdwardsThe problem with determining the afterlife of humans is that Tolkien’s Middle Earth stories were always written from the Elvish POV, and how would they know?
Lovely discussion! I appreciate your insights on the continuing evolution of human mythology.
I love your videos, always informative and entertaining. Fantasy is my preferred literature so anything you can do expand on those would be fantastic. I would also be interested to hear about British myth and legend; the Arthurian stories, Robin Hood, and other folk tales that may have links with our ancient history. Or in a similar vein "magic" items such as the Gàe Bulg, or Excalibur.
Thank you for your consideration of Tolkien's work! If you have the opportunity, consider Slavic mythology, the difference between West Slavic and East Slavic, and its proximity to other Indo-European cultures.
Loved this video sir. Lord of the Rings is actually what got me so interested in comparative mythology. I think there’s so much more to discuss just on the lord of the rings books. So much inspiration from various religions and cultures
In the Book of Lost Tales the Valar of the oceans is called Ylmer instead of Ulmo. I remember thinking about the names in protoindoeuropean Myth reconstructions
Thank you for this intriguing & beautiful analysis!
Balin is the one Dwarven name not found in the Voluspa. It might be an Arthurian name instead (sounding like it fits with the genuinely Norse Dwalin).
I wouldn’t mind more like this. Have you considered Robert Jordan and the wheel of time? I read that entire series often lol
Wow, that would take some doing... but maybe, one day, in a few years time.
@@Crecganford I was given the first book in 2000 for my birthday. There’s so many things (Kari Al’Thor, Fain is a family name,etc) that connected to my life that I became completely consumed by the series. I am also very small town, so that rang true as well for me lol
Some of the main characters have developments inspired by Odin, Thor and Tyr. I won’t say more, I don't want to spoil anyone the books...
Melkor didn’t want to destroy the world, he wanted to create living things of his own. When he couldn’t do that (only Eru could create life) he got angry and over time he instead corrupted things in order to put his mark on the world. Sauron didn’t just want to rule the world, he wanted to create order in world (like an all powerful dictator).
Another interesting video, I love relaxing to the wonderful storytelling style while learning. Much respect.
I watched a fascinating presentation of a professor at Gresham college on the subject of cursed objects found in England dating back to pagan Roman period. He ended with a brief tale of the power of cursed objects, stating that a curse was found in a temple for the thief of a stolen ring, this well described ring was found miles away millennia later…by none other than amateur/hobbyist archaeologist, Tolkien.
That sounds like a talk by Ronald Hutton, I do read some of his work, although I am not always in agreement with everything he says.
@@Crecganford Yes! It was Hutton. He is very knowledgeable and entertaining. I did note some scholarly disagreement in commentary on one of his presentations, of course it was mostly over my head unfamiliar with the specific subject matter. If you have time and inclination, would you care to elaborate where you have disagreed?
*thank you for all you do, I’m obsessed with your channel!
I would love to see more on vedic history and influence!
thx for sharing these i think that him JRR tolkien got much inspiration from the Nordic asatru tales and mythology stories that made him more into those stuff and drawn into it
I applaud such a bold endeavour, and I hope you carry it further, whether with Tolkien and/or other authors.
However, I‘m here to step into the discussion: although indeed Melkor has basicly existed since the dawn of creation, I believe his maleficence is not meant to be interpreted as inherent to him (or the world). He, like all other beings, has always been granted the faculty of freedom, as much as they‘d never be denied the opportunity of repentance. In what might be seen as Tolkien‘s reinterpretation of „theodice“, even though Eru could’ve easily intervened whenever, evil is self-arisen but also self-destructed; because ultimately good did not traditionally triumph in the end (since Frodo too succumbs too the One Ring), but actually endured and contributed just enough for evil to eventually defeat itself „eucataclysmically“.
Therefore, even though I partake in no abrahamic belief myself, I acclaim such view of a non-morally-dualistic world. And as such, I find it hard for it to be compatible with any manichean cosmovision, including zoroastrianism. But thanks nonetheless, for such an eternal conception of good and evil does seem like a plausible assumption to be made in antiquity; which I find quite entertaining even if I do not abide.
On further note, I‘d be very interested in morality systems of different cultures through time and space as reflected in their myths. As Socrates might‘ve once asked: "Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?"
Please cover the manga One Piece. I watch you to learn more about mythology, so I can understand world building more. It's impossible for me to convey how much you would love his world. Every video I watch of yours I always find things I can relate to One Piece.
I have to say this would be very much out of comfort zone, but maybe, one day, if enough people ask for it.
This was craic! More on the influence on fiction, please!
I would appreciate learning about Starwars and its links to Vedic traditions and myths.
Dude I love your content, love how calmly you speak and how in depth you go into these topics
Thank you.
This was interesting and enjoyable, but you certainly could do a deeper dive into all of these topics should you choose. Also, my understanding is that some of Tolkien’s ideas were draw from non-Indo-European sources (such as Turambar, who apparently was inspired by Finnish myth). I hope you will do some follow-ups.
Thank you very much for this. In our time there’s obviously a longing for magic and myths. You are absolutely right to adress this.
8:52 "because how can good triumph, unless there's an evil to beat?"
Such a powerful, philosophical question
And poltical.. the need for a enemy is always present.
It's almost heartbreaking when Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf, and Frodo board that last ship and it sails off into the sunset - not just over an ocean but through a veil that no man can ever follow them through - it is as if the last magic is departing the world. Because they are no longer needed - the last Dark Lord has been defeated, and it's very much as though the idea was "you guys will be able to take it from here - you're on your own."
I was surprised (in a good way!) to see a video from you appearing that goes about Tolkien.
It's a great addition to your channel. Many books/movies (mostly fantasy, but other genres as well) take inspiration from real world mythology.
It can be great to see the influences that some books/movies have from real world mythology. Harry Potter and The Golem and the Djinni are also great works that have influences from real world myths.
I clicked so fast on the link of the Unofficial Guide to Tolkien's World, only to find out it will only be released on November 14th, how sad. I love your take on Tolkien, and I'd love to see a video like this for Terry Pratchett. Great work.
Terry Pratchett would certainly be interesting
Would love you to do Terry Pratchetts Discworld 😊😅
Please please please make a video about Terry Pratchett. I love his Discworld books and the world and characters he created therein.
This is a very good introductory video about Tolkien's mithology. But I rather expected more... I mean, a deeper delving into particular miths or stories (those of the Silmarillion, especially). Tolkien is known to be a scientist into Indoeuopean studies and language, which he said were the main source of his inspiration. Also, there is a Finish connection related to elves' languages and culture. But he affirmed his world was not Celtic, and on several occasions he seemed to refuse direct Celtic connections. I expect other videos upon this subject and I heartily congratulate you for this one.
There's an amazing book by Brian bates (the real middle earth) which I'm still steamrolling through....its fantastic
I adore this topic! Please plan further in depth episodes, as these are the legends that mattered to me in my lifetime. Huge fan!
Thank you for this. Absolutely fascinating. I have read LoTR about 50 times. I get something out of it every time and your video just gave me much much more. Thank you
In an interview you can find online, Tolkien said his trees have nothing to do with Yggdrasil, but much more resemble Alexanders 2 trees.
Having just reread the books, this video is a great treat for the day
Thanks very much for your overview of JRRT's sources for his mythologized universe. Perhaps you have seen the In Deep Geek channels videos on Tolkiens work. The vids are very detailed and well done and sometimes go deep into the rabbit hole seeking. I highly recommend the channel for its content and enjoyment.
The way I audibly gasped when you suggested Terry Pratchett, please please do discworld!
These types of videos aren't so well received here, and so I may have to collab with someone to make that happen, but I will try.
@@Crecganford could I suggest a collab with tale foundry? They've done a whole series on Pratchett and are a fantastic bunch
Please please consider covering the Warhammer 40k univers! It is a wash with real world myths and legends.
Brother you are on FIRE i found you like 2 weeks ago and im almost done binging your videos. Thank you im a lore Geek, fron my history adiction , and i love these stories
Thank you for your kind words.
Thank you for your efforts. In clarifying the cosmology of the Lord of the Rings.
Maybe I didn't pay enough attention, but I didn’t hear you mentioning Sauron as the Eye being influenced by Balor (Balaihr) the Fomorian God from the Irish myths. It's a very powerful image.
Thank you from a long time fan of Tolkien's work.
You should look up professor Thijs Porck from Leiden University!! He is amazing and has actually thaught us in class about the relationship between old English and Tolkien. One of the best professors out there and I think you would like him (and I think he would like your content a lot as well) Also, I love your videos and as a historian I really like the accuarcy of them
Another great video. I believe that a second great influence on Tolkien's work is his experiences in the trenches of the first world war combined with his love of languages and mythology.
He didn't spend too much time in the trenches as he was hospitalised for much of his time in the army. And so it is felt that this wasn't as significant influence on his work as his faith in Christianity.
Tolkien was such a master of mythology and language!
I would like to see a video about the mythological influences on Harry Potter. I have noted some Greek influence, but a larger view of the cultural background would be nice. Most Videos I have seen about Rowling's Wizarding World is more technical and theory from within the world than a view of the larger legends and mythology.
There aren’t any. Harry Potter is just made-up nonsense and chick-lit. JK Rowling wasn’t an expert on Indo-European mythology or anything similar.
Great idea for a different kind of vid!
I think Tolkien's world is a very good fit to your channel and would love to see a much deeper dive. I think his work could even be treated as if it was mythology and be analyzed and interpreted the same way. The only difference to mythology is that it was a single know author being aware (I assume :) ) he's writing fiction.
While other fictional work could be similar interesting, thinking of Terry Pratchett for example, I don't think it's that close to mythology as Tolkien's work is.
Always important to remeber that fiction is a means to write about the real world without pointing too many fingers at too many ppl. Creative writing.
G'day from Port Douglas, Tropical North Queensland Australia.
Thanks. I think the Star Wars comparison to the Ruse and Fall of Rome would be a great video.
I think George lucas had the rise of 20th century fascism in mind. But it's all related.
Great video. 👍
Thank you.
A story that would be interesting for you to cover, but that isn't myth-based is "The Gammage Cup". How a group of people are influenced by strange writings from a book that arrives in their isolated village.
That is an interesting suggestion, I shall consider this more. Thank you.
I definitely like this type of video. I hope you do more of them!!!
The Bible 6 day was a recreation and replenishing of the cosmos including the Earth and followed the second to last flood that being the flood of Noah's days.
This recreator resting on the 7th day is the best example of melchor
Yes we would love harry potter, terry pratchet, all of it, everything
A fun thing I noticed is that Manwë, the chief of the valar, is of the skies and winds, the sky father of the pantheon
Great look into Tolkien's fantasy. Balrog in Celtic means something like Mine-grunt, which the dwarfs awakened by mining into his hibernation chamber?
I read somewhere that Tolkien was also influenced by the Finnish/Finland epic known as the Kalevala. Vainamoinen from the Kaleval reminds me a lot of Gandalf. Tolkien's Elvish language, Quenya, is very similar, or at least a lot of the words are similar to words in the actual Finnish language.
That was great. I am interested in the idea that Gandalf was a Christianised version of Of Odin. Would be fascinated at how Tolkien blended he is own personal faith with his love of pagan mythology.
Wagner’s Ring Cycle. Gandalf is like the fatherly wanderer version of Wotan (ie Odin) from Wagner’s Ring Cycle, who looks out for Sigfried, same as how Gandalf is fatherly and looks out for Frodo.
First of all, thank you for great videos :)
Yes, I would love to see more of these fiction and mythology videos.
I don't think there is no mythological basis for ents. What about slavic Leshy? :)
It's not said where humans go when they died but it's a different place than elves'. That's why it's so dramatic that Arwen chose to stay with Aragorn because that means she would be separated from her father Elrond and the rest of the elves forever. That's the price for choosing humanity.
Second cup of tea? Hahahaha. I have had way more than that already.
Berserker means Bearskin. Thank you. It gives me a bit more information about the "Fairytale" Bearskin.
I don't think he would do that, but i really would like an analysis of the manga Berserk mythology 😆
Melkor and his agent Sauron aren't so much evil as their goal is to undo the creation and replace it with their own flawed version.
Like Zoarastrian they oppose the 'Light' and are therefore beings of the Darkness, the world of Shadow.
Now im looking for a video about warhammer fantasy!
Great video! 💚 But you forgot to mention Gandalf. 🧙♂️
Did I not mention him when I talked about the dwarves? If not, my apologies.
@@Crecganford well, I was driving while listening... maybe I was distracted while you spoke about him. Lol
Nice! I like this a lot, and would like to listen to more influences of fiction. My favorite book series is The Malazan Book of the Fallen by Steven Erikson, and It would be interesting to have your opinion on its influences.
Please do more Tolkien! I was so immersed and then it was over. Btw, how strong of an influence do you think Christian myth played in his works? Has it been overstated? And crucially, where did he diverge from Christianity and instead went with a Pagan cosmology
I really appreciate your sharing of scholarship it substantially helps me in my historical interpretation for visitors.
I would not like to see you going into pop culture narrative comparisons done so well by let’s say ‘in deep geek’ or sharing the characters archetypes in modern story as seen in Jordan Peterson lectures 2017.
However I would love to see you in discussion with in deep geek going over the Jungian Archetype stuff that would be a fertile area I believe.
For you regular presentations how about going smaller and into folklore and legend perhaps the Scandinavian supernatural the Nuckelavee is a super scary monster, bloody hell is it.
Or even go Creganory with the oldest stories simply told
Please just keep doing what you do what ever you decide
Thank you for commenting, it does seem that less people like these videos, but those who do, really like them. Perhaps this kind of content should be on a different channel. Something I shall ponder.
It’s because your content is so clean and focused it’s a compliment really.
But look at in deep geek his content in the pop culture fantasy field is top notch although does not bring in your study try a collaboration ?
I so want a Creganory Channel something my daughter may enjoy at bedtime.
This is great, but you’re missing a huge influence, which is Wagner’s Ring of the Nibelung. LOTR is basically a liberalized version of Wagner’s Ring Cycle, although Tolkien himself tried to obscure this because of the Ring Cycle’s association with fascism. But Sauron, for example, is directly based off Alberich from the Ring Cycle, Gandalf and Sauruman are sort of based off Wotan, Frodo is a liberalized version of Sigfried, etc. The elves leaving middle earth was based off the death of the Aesir at the end of the Ring Cycle, which was sort of a metaphor for the extinction of Nordic people by Wagner. Tolkien went out of his way to obscure this, but it’s very clear if you study Wagner’s Ring of the Nibelung and then LOTR that Tolkien based made a fan-fiction off Wagner’s Ring Cycle, but tried to make it less fascist (hobbits are small and humble rather than tall blonde aryan warriors like Sigfried, etc).
PLEASE do Terry Pratchett!