James White vs Shabir Ally - Did Jesus Claim Deity? (2012)
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- Опубликовано: 6 июл 2012
- A debate between James White and Shabir Ally, Thursday, March 22, 2012
My Reflections on the Ally-White Debate
shabirally.wordpress.com/2012/...
A Response to James White's "Some Brief Thoughts Regarding Liberal Scholarship, Redaction Criticism, and Islam (Part 1)"
shabirally.wordpress.com/2012/...
A Review of the Ally/White Debate in Canada
thedebateinitiative.com/2012/0...
![99.99999997% of all Muslims have Never Seen This [Dr. James White]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1c15EmERsZg/mqdefault.jpg)
Why not take fewer questions but give the debaters the opportunity to give more in-depth answers? This way, they start answering a question and are immediately cut off because there is not enough time...
i think we have seen too much of muslim vs christain debate i also wan't to see jews vs muslim debate or christain vs jew debate.
Here's the verse of Matthew 19:17 from the New International Version, “Why do you ASK ME ABOUT WHAT is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
that guy between the two debators is very very annoying
I do enjoy watching and listening Dr White and Dr Ally debate. Their mutual respect for each other is truly apparent and I only wish that more Muslim debaters could learn from his manner and scholarship.
This is probably the worst moderator ever! The guy won't even allow the two speakers to finish their sentences. Please never moderate again!
Dr. Ally: "Faith can continue where fact stops."
Historical fact, Jesus was crucified. So that contradicts Islam. Faith cannot twist facts, it continues where they stop, so be intellectually consistent.
Hebrews 5:7 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence.
Ezekiel 18:20-21 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.
There is so much Truth coming from James White! Love this debate!
That defies logic my friend.
You can't be eternal and not eternal, all knowing and not know at the same time.
I'm happy to see to these respected scholars can continue to keep a civil discussion.
This was so amazing. Dr. White and Dr. Ally are so intelligent, and eloquent in their interactions
Also that is what Christians believe. That God came in flesh and humbled himself to feel pain and even death. God put certain limitations to himself while in flesh(thus it's not a contradiction) but it is still God in the "end". Like a weight lifter humbling himself with a lower weight then his true maximum potential.
thanks for uploading. this is good stuff
James did not ignore him at all. He addressed Shabir's point twice.
very interesting, thanks for uploading
No it's nothing to do with time and space. Words have meaning. What is God and what is man? Both are opposite to each other. One is infallible and the other is fallible. You can't be perfect and imperfect, all knowing and ignorant, unlimited and limited at the same time. To be one is not to be the other by definition. Just like can't be a married bachelor. It's a contradiction in terms.
Thanks for uploading.
Why do Muslims always say peace be upon him when they speak of Jesus Mohammad or any of the prophets? Aren't they in Heaven with Allah and so they have earned their peace??
What is this wish of peace for??
Is there a possibility that they are not in Heaven and so Allah might change his decision after the many wishes (pbuh) of the Muslims?
We don't believe that God has a body but He is timeless and space less and so these concepts do not apply to Him.
You can't be a married bachelor. But you can be at one time married and then divorced to become a bachelor again. And thus God becoming a man isn't a contradiction, God just put a lower limitation to himself, while in flesh(to be human). And thus it's not a contradiction. Even a human who is strong on the bench press works out at his maximum let say 250 lbs and yet I lower myself to 100 lbs to simply not go "all" out with my strength. A human can do this and God can't? God "can" do this.
Does anyone know the titles of the two books Dr. White gave to Dr. Ally at the end of the debate? I would be very interested to know, please.
'what if' some guy came about today and proved he could do the same things Jesus? Would u make that person your god?
Peter says Jesus was a man not a god but a man approved by God with miracles which God did through him (Act 2:22)
Jesus is both divine and human at the same time. Therefore, in the one person of Jesus are two distinct natures. This is called the Hypo-static Union. But, this isn't all we know about the person and work of Christ. Jesus also occupies three main offices: Prophet, Priest, and King. Every time Jesus said "I AM" He was declaring His deity.....I Am the TRUTH...not I speak the truth...I AM THE TRUTH!!!!
A faction of the followers of Jesus formed the view that he was god at an early date. They were only a faction until they began to deploy some very dirty politics and they didn't entirely dominate until the 13th century. From the existence of this faction, James White concludes that the idea must have come from Jesus himself, even though there is no record of it. This doesn't make any sense.
Jesus fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6 NASB)
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." (John 8:56-58 NASB)
Jesus my friends is the Lord God
Many Christians need to see this video
"Dr." Shabir Ally sounds just like a Ph.D very confusing. This presentation is not the least bit convincing. Still waiting for his treatment of whether or not Jesus claimed to be Deity.
James said that Jesus was a man and a prophet of God, but yet he was king and more than that, and he died for our sins. Christians say that God came in the form of human being to convey his msg.
My question, who was running the universe when God came in the form of human? How could God be in the earth and up there? Allah sent Muhammad to all human and now Muslims are about 1.7billion and the number is growing very fast thank Allah. THIS IS A LIVING EXAMPLE THAT GOD CAN CONVEY HIS MSG WITHOUT BECOMING IN THE FORM OF HUMAN
my friend, i've never heard that before, very good evidence, i'm going to look it up
Jesus prayed to the Father. The three are separate beings yet are one just as Jesus stated. God states that Man and wife are one in Genesis 2:24(Echad) just as he states he is one (Echad). Man and wife are both FULLY married. Husband is not the wife and wife is not the husband yet each are FULLY married and form ONE marriage.
Can wife communicate to husband and not be talking to herself? Yes of course.
I notice that Shabir Ally diverted the topic from whether Jesus claimed deity, to issues of scholarship. Sadly, James White allowed him to do so through much of the debate.
I shall watch this later :)
Jesus Christ died for our sins. The Son being both Mortal and God at the same time died for our sins. The Father did not die. The Son died. The Son prayed to the Father. The Son and Father with the Holy Spirit are One God. Take care and God bless.
Excellent analogy, sir.
Jesus was a complete man. Christians do believe that. You only pointed out a half truth. The other half is that he was complete God as well.
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple. (John 8:56-59 NASB)
Jesus claim to be God, the Jews new he did by his own words read
John 10:33
We do not stone you for a good work but you being a man claim to be God ( paraphrased)
Micah 5:2-3 the Son to be giving was eternal everlasting, my friends nothing is eternal except God
Isaiah 9 states jesus is God
Hebrew chpt 1
As white pointed out if you do not search for real truth and put the bias away you'll never know and what if when you die you meet that real jesus who is God and you have rejected him, that means eternity in hell, scary thought
I'm pretty sure that the first one was: The Deity of Christ (Editors: Morgan & Peterson) but I don't know about the second one.
For example, in Mk 4:38, Shabir said they called Jesus "teacher," but they called Him "Master." He's sneaky and not to be trusted.
Jesus (pbuh) is not GOD but a messenger of GOD like any other messenger
Shabir to me shows good wisdom, but I feel he did not hold James in the conner as he should have, He should have been addressing the opening statements. His first quotes was the view of one man outside of scripture. His quote of Php 2:6 was taken out of context, the point of it was that he being like us set the mindset of how we were to be like minded with him, it deals with him being the 2nd Adam, not Elohim. It ends with Yahweh giving to him. Forgiving sins was given by the Father Joh 20:21-23
Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me. True Son of a God!
For one, the outer walls were destroyed. The "Wailing wall" that you see today is agreed upon by scholars to be the remains of a Roman fortress. Not the Temple.
Quran does not deny the history of the crucifixion; if it seem to people that Jesus was crucified then what else would people say but that Jesus was crucified.
Shabir was very inconsistent
Much respect to both
What did the angel says to Mary?
Did he say you are giong to have a God,_____ or a Son?
Deuteronomy chapter 18 verses 15/18 - See Greek Texts - See 'altogether lovely'
No we worship only God who became man and now is risen and sitting at right hand of Father. Thank you.
LOL! Did anyone notice in Dr. White's opening speech that he says early Christians believed in the deity of Christ *since right after the death of the apostles*? Perhaps Dr. White should look into what the apostles Paul and John both said was going to happen after they died (Acts 20:29, 30; 2 Thessalonians 2:6, 7; 1 John 2:18-23; 5:1). So, it's clear that apostate teachings were already spreading during the apostles time, but they were restraining it. Once they died, of COURSE lies spread!
I just love the facts that Shabir brings up. They are so clear. I hope Christians go and verify themselves these facts from their gospels. Just to find the truth. Shabir did the homework for them
If Scriptures and reasoning are the main factors for the acceptance of a particular Belief from God; I dont think Christianity will convinced You & I...
Jesus peace and blessings of God be upon him was not God. God is perfect the unseen. When you say jesus was God this makes God imperfect and not unseen anymore. Holy mary mother of God is not Gods mother coz then that makes adam and eve God's great grandparents.So if u say holy mary is not Gods mother then jesus is not God. Now say that cause its common sense.
good one man... i agree!!!!
Teacher and master are both translated from the same word it's just a different translation that your using.
VERY SIMPLE which verses and which chapter in the QURAN that says Jesus (pbuh) is GOD??? or claimed to be GOD???
John 1:1 -"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD."
John 1:2 -"The same was in the beginning with God."
the Word was already with God before creation.
John 1:10 - "He (the Word) was in the world, AND THE WORLD WAS MADE THROUGH HIM (the WORD)"
simple right?
Matthew 23:9
Prophet Moses from Sinai,
Prophet Jesus from Seir,
Prophet Muhammed Peace Be Upon Him from Paran. (Mount Paran near Macca in Arabia)
“The Lord came from Sinai
and dawned over them from Seir;
he shone forth from Mount Paran."
Old Testament - Deuteronomy 33:2
if Allah is beyond our comprehension, then how can you say that Allah can not be God and Man at the same time?
btw, are we talking about textual preservation now? i thought our topic is the Nature of God/Allah, that is why i brought up a verse from the Bible that says, "Jesus was the Word became flesh". if so, your Quran isn`t as trustworthy as you think it is.
choose a topic: Nature of Allah/God or Textual preservation?
Isaiah 9:6
NO DOUBT Jesus is the image of the invisible God.100% Man and 100% God= He is powerful that can do anythings incarnated in the flesh.
no matter what people said...words of Jesus Christ alone will change your whole being.
He is the genuine replica of God. God incarnate in? Jesus. NO CONTRADICTION, NO CONFLICT and NO CONFUSION.
1:58:05 -> how to explain that to kids?
who is winner this debate
THE GOSPEL WRITTER ARE WRITTING WHAT THE HOLY SPIRIT WANTS WRITTEN ABOUT THE DIFFERANT CHARACTERS OF CHRIST AS KING, SERVANT, MAN, GOD....WE DONT NEED THE SAME STORY WRITTEN 4 IDENTICAL WAYS......THE DIFFERANCES THERE BEARS WITNESS TO THE AUTHOR BEING THE HOLY SPIRITS LESSON TO US.....
How does a God pray and to who, so Jesus prayed and fell to his face in prayer, so he cannot be a God. One of the attributes of a God, that God is independent of his creation, Jesus needed God so he prayed. Humans are thinkers so people ask for guidance and God will open your hearts and minds.
Salloo in this contexts does not mean pray but blessings because of the preposition that follows 'aaala' which you incorrectly translate 'for' when in fact it means 'over' or 'upon'.
If the criteria for God was that one must be born from a miracle, that one was born without a father, Jesus pbuh still wouldn't be the number one choice. Adam pbuh was created a man, and without parents.
that is becaue dr james white is very clever , in every debate he will use words of different scholars and when you use those scholars in the next debate it is not good enough like shabir ally said , he changes the whole thing around... the bible has got many different scholars...in his next debate when shabir ally studies whom he used in this debate he will use words of a different person , isn't that clever?
for example, and give references
The disciples do not say in Acts that Jesus was only a man
or a man "rather than a god/God."
Simply that he was man.
You cannot be God and man at the same time, and shabir ally explained how in this debate
Philippians 2:5-8 states that Jesus is in VERY FORM (morphe - meaning form, nature, etc.) God. That is a blunt and direct statement in scripture.
he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death-even death on a cross!
' It seems to me that Shabir's primary goal isn't to uncover truth but to "win" thereby decreasing objectivity'
.
It's interesting how you use your subjective opinion
to opine on objectivity
God has other sons in the bible which you will see clearly if you read it. Believe in the entire book and not just parts of it.
Your using the KJV which is an old translation based on late Greek manuscripts. Look up Matthew 19:16 in any other modern English translation besides the KJV ans New King James.
I as a Muslim believe in the original true teaching of the Christ to worship God as one, not as trinity as it was invented later after few hundred years.
If Jesus claim deity as God he would clearly ask his disciples to worship him, but instead he told people that no one is good but God. He also said I'm going to my God and your God. The Bible clearly said no one born of a woman could be God & Jesus was born of a woman.
Jesus said he was sent to the Jews while Muhammad was sent to all.
Peace
It changes everything, you need to read the passage in its full context. You wouldn't like it if some one took verses from the quran out of context, and said you see here it proves allah is a liar and here it proves islam is a religion of hate and violence. SO please stop with the double standard!
Son died means. One of the God of trinity died?. so trinity died. so Father and holy ghost remaining?
lol how would it sound if Peter would say He was a God approved by God?
Here Peter talks about THE MAN Jesus that God sent. Jesus did not come to earth as God but as man (though He was/is God).
I always thought John Malkovich was Jewish.
Truth stand clear out of error. Islam is the Truth
The shema of James White is a wrong Shema.
Not just human body but absolutely no body. These concepts do not apply to God. He is nothing we can imagine. Beyond our comprehension. John's gospel was the last gospel to be accepted into the Church. Initially Christians reject John because they believed it was a Gnostic gospel with heretic teaching.
Jesus was God in flesh 100% God 100 man. He claimed this and was worshipped.
Guy, it's never hard. God formed man to have all those attributes. So, it couldn't be too hard for Him to hide under that figure called Human body. Before He was born, it was foretold "a virgin shall conceive and the child shall be Almighty God". Truly, a virgin did, which never has happened in history. Why then is it hard to believe the rest of the prophecy about Him being an Almighty God? We know what we are saying...friends. Only you need revelation to know it to the deep.
Point is not to do with the destruction of the temple but the point is do with his second coming and the end of the world as it existed, is link to the destruction of the temple and those things did not happen.
Shabir ally he is the best schooler in the world and i respect james too may Allah guide and show him the way.
Is not Shabir's whole first argument decimated if one can find any mention of Jesus's deity in the Gospel of Mark? I would say it does and I would ask anyone interested in the truth to check out Mark 14:61-62. This quotations also relates back to the Psalm that White refers to in his opener, establishing Jesus as the foretold messiah and God. God Bless and I commend all of you for watching this and seeking the truth :)
How do you know whether it seemed or it actually happened?
Do you approach this question with a Muslim predisposition that will undoubtedly corrupt your thinking, or do you approach this question purely on historical grounds and let the evidence take you where it may?
If you can honestly answer my questions, to yourself, it will better help you understand why you are a Muslim and cannot see why Islam contradicts the reality of the Abrahamic God we are all supposed to worship! To Him be glory!
Jesus certainly claimed deity in the Aramaic John Gospel.
LOL why did you only quote that verse? i love when people practice selective reading in order to deceive those that don't know the bible. i will tell you why you stopped, you stopped because it later goes on to say that Jesus is Lord, was killed and crucified and sits at the right hand of the Father.
Certainly that is why this God of yours destroyed all those tribes we read of in the old testament and even command to "In the cities of the nations the Lord is giving you as an inheritance, *do not leave alive anything that breathes.*" Deutronomy 20:16
"And now slay every male among the little ones, and slay every woman that hath known man by lying with him," Numbers 31:17
and because of this love God created Hell right?
Why don't you actually read those verses in context its amazing how people take verses out of context and don't even read the verse after it. Hebrews 5:8 Jesus suffered please tell me what kind of suffering did jesus experience? Read the whole chapter not just one verse
This White is a lair, read the story of the fig tree to be sure that Jesus can not be God because God knows every thing! Matthew 21: 18 Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.
didn't he rise again???
Jesus: I AM GOD THE ALL KNOWING!
Disciple: GREAT! OH GOD THEN PLEASE TELL US WHEN IS THE LAST HOUR
Jesus: SORRY GUYS I DONT KNOW THAT ONE. NEXT QUESTION.
Disciple: ERM...OKAY IS IT THE SEASON FOR FIGS?
Jesus: DONT KNOW THAT ONE EITHER MY FRIEND. NEXT QUESTION
Disciple: CAPITAL CITY OF ISRAEL?
Jesus: I KNOW! I KNOW! JERUSALEM!!
Disciple: (Speechless)
i understand that you believe that Allah has no human body, but you have to understand that Christians believe that Jesus is God became flesh.
John 1:14
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us...
Christians believe that God can enter into His own creation for a purpose. i don`t think we can argue whether He can or can not, the only thing we can argue is whether He DID or DID NOT, and according to the Bible, He did.
I thought Jesus was not not a Levi but from the tribe of Judah