Predestination Debate: For whom did Christ die? - Part 2 Q&A
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- Опубликовано: 25 июл 2024
- www.revelationtv.com/debatewee... Dr Michael Brown and Dr James White debate and discuss Predestination: For whom did Christ die? The debate was moderated by Presenter Tim Vince (Sky Digital 581 and Freesat 692, live stream: www.revelationtv.com). Our hope is to be a faithful witness to biblical truths in these challenging times. Please pray that the Lord will be honoured during this important broadcast. Do also encourage others to watch too.
Agree with James White!
It is very humbling to know that God opens the eyes and ears of his chosen. Otherwise, we could boast in our salvation by us making that choice. Praise God 🙏
Where in Scripture does it say that anyone is predestined to believe ? I know where scripture says believers are predestined to the adoption the redemption of our bodies but never have I seen a text say predestined to belief..
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Ephesians 2:8
Faith is granted, not earned. It's a gift. Our belief in God comes from our faith, which is a gift. We can't earn it, and we definitely don't deserve it. 🙏
Jesus did the work of salvation, however we must choose to accept it. Love is never forced so Jesus comes to the door of our heart and knocks but we are the ones that have to open the door. Grace mercy and peace
@@truth_merchant7839 amen . This dang Calvinist blasphemy has got to go .
@@cecilspurlockjr.9421 It boggles the mind that Dr. White can think that a Holy God can be unholy by choosing arbitrarily who will be saved. God responses to our heart.
Agree with Dr Brown
Well the Bible says otherwise
If Christ didn't PRAY for everyone in the world in His prayer in John 17:9, nor is everyone called His bride in Eph. 5:25, then it's logically feasible to conclude Christ didn't DIE for everyone. It's in the text!
He died for everyone...but not everyone will believe...Romans 11 illustrates that those who are grafted in(saved), can through their arrogance/sin, be broken off(unsaved)...just because you accept Jesus does not mean you are saved...Just as the nation of Israel was chosen yet not everyone believed....very simple
@Saiko Woods, go back to John 17, vs 6. Jesus is talking about the apostles. Those are who he is praying for at that moment, “the ones that god gave him out of the world”.
John 17:6-9 KJV
[6] I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. [7] Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. [8] For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. [9] I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
@@nayalifigueredo4254 curious to know if you hold the same view
All, ALL glory to Christ, and none to a wretch like me. I can't bring myself to spiritual life, only God can. Otherwise, I would start my prayer with thanking myself for doing the biggest good there is, choosing God. I know myself. I'm a wretch. That's why I believe the biblical teachings about me. A total wretch deserving of hell.
Eddie, not a Calvinist here. I can assure you that I have never started a prayer thanking myself nor have I ever, ever heard anything remotely like that out of the mouth of any Christian. Good grief how do you think such things? only thanks and praise offered up to the God that made the way and to Jesus for His work on the cross. Its all of Him! This example that calvinists always throw out against non-calvinists is so tired and completely founded on fantasy ridiculousness.
Awesome debate! Good points from both sides, but I find that I agree with Dr. Brown on this topic. 36: 36 in the video, thank you Dr. Brown, I agree!
Dr White nails this every time.
The only thing i struggle to understand is this. There are men who will have a worse condemnation for rejecting the Gospel. How is that possible if they had no chance of accepting it in the first place?
Another thing that I find difficult to comprehend is how can two men filled with the Holy Spirit come up woth two completely different understandings
The first is understandable since God's ways are not ours. This is why we try not on our own understanding.
The second is the real dilemma LOL
@John Warren
///There are men who will have a worse condemnation for rejecting the Gospel. How is that possible if they had no chance of accepting it in the first place?///
It's not possible. This proves that Calvinism/Reformed Theology is false. It's not an accurate depiction of the gospel message in the bible.
////Another thing that I find difficult to comprehend is how can two men filled with the Holy Spirit come up woth two completely different understandings////
James White is not spirit filled. He believes in a different gospel (one that is not for the whole world) and a false Jesus (one who did not atone for all), and a false father (one who does not want all men to come to repentance). Calvinism is another gospel, and thus not biblical.
@@craigjoyner9857 Good explanation.
My friend, please explore the Church that Christ founded, the Catholic Church! The Holy Spirit cannot deceive or confuse us. Sola scriptura is a tradition of men. We need the “pillar and foundation of truth” to be the final authority in interpretation.
God bless you!
@@stefanielozinski Jesus did not found the catholic church, maam. That's man-made. The word of God tells us, in Christendom, "Call no man your Father" Matthew 23:9 this is what the word catholic means:
cath·o·lic-including a wide variety of things; all-embracing. Catholicism is entirely man-made.
I am a Calvinist, a Reformed Baptist. I have been to some churches that claim to be Reformed that are as cold as ice.
I know that I am well 'past the post' on this, but I must say a big THANK YOU to everyone involved in this debate.
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased.
But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit.
This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.".
:)
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.
-Acts 3:19
:)
We can know we are of the elect because we have been filled with the Holy Spirit! The gift of the Spirit and his inner witness in our hearts is how we know. The Holy Spirit is a 'deposit' guaranteeing our salvation and future (Eph). The fact that we know God personally is evidence that we are saved too.
Admiro profundamente a estos dos hombres de Dios, que han desarrollado un debate de altura desde dos posiciones diferentes. Han demostrado civilismo, amor, humildad...
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased.
But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit.
This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.".
.
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.
-Acts 3:19
Thank God for giving me the assurance of internal life. I have accepted Jesus, the unmerited and everlasting gift of life here and after as my Lord and Savior therefore I know I am one of God's elect!!!!! In JESUS name I AM!!!! Thank you!!!
Augustine & Calvin preached a distorted gospel (fatalist) and is devoid of original hebraic origins.
Actually they preached the same gospel in the bible: that all men are sinners and anyone who wants to, came come to Jesus and be saved. What evidence do you have that they "preached a false gospel". None whatsoever.
@augustine don't lie if you don't anything
Unfortunately, Dr. Brown did not stick to the debate topic. He continued to speak on rehearsed rhetoric of his system of apologetics. No exegesis. I found that Dr. White was very clear on defending his belief with very specific scripture in the Hebrew and Greek interpretation. Always bringing it back to the atonement. I was very blessed by this debate. I can see why one would be of a Calvinistic persuasion.
The emphasis on the word " world", in the bible, is usually in reference to not being limited to Jewish people, because from the beginning it was only a certain race of people, a bloodline.
Agree w DR. Michael Brown
Since we are all equally cursed under the law, God is free to choose who he wants can't you hear the law? Man is utterly powerless.
Joe Indie that same law in the book of moses tell them and us to choose this today...deuteronomy 30:15-20 we are able like Israel to choose life or death blessing or cursing (2 corinthians 2:15*16* to the one we are savor of death unto death and to the other savour life unto life..unblievers need to choose..)
I look at it this way. The creator does not have to answer to the created. God is sovereign and can do whatever he chooses with his creation. The real question should be why God has decided to save any of us as we are all deserving of hell ( me probably more than most) but through his mercy he has decided to save some of us. Why he chooses you instead of me, or me instead of the man on the park bench? The secret things belong to God. If God says that's how it is, that's how it is. Arguing the toss won't change anything. God owes us no explanation. The only reason we believe is because God has given us the ability to believe by instilling in us the gift of faith. Without the gift no natural man would believe, as man is naturally estranged from God owing to the fall, that has affected every human to this day. If you are a believer, praise God, as he has chosen you. You belong to him. If you are not a believer you don't. Simple. Jesus said" I know my sheep, they hear my voice" Amen.
Valerie Johnson . All praise be to God.
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased.
But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit.
This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.".
.
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.
-Acts 3:19
.
@@gustavibrowzinbehrd3871☕️
This is such a stupid idea.
Nobody is asking God to answer to His creation, but he will answer according to his own written Word
And it clearly says that Jesus died for all.
Stop the debate and go win souls for Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit and presenting the Gospel
Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Indeed this is true. As a former agnostic, I attest to this, but you cannot knock with a prejudiced, hostile, polluted mind. You have to be open minded like a child, as we're instructed. Set up mental barriers and God will not force His way past them and violate your free will.
Don't use this verse out if context, Jesus is speaking to believers, not unbelievers. He's talking about the relationship we ought to have with him. One that sees us dining with him in both in Scripture and in prayer
Jesus speaking to a Church and not a sinner.
Fascinating stuff. Total respect to Dr. White and Dr. Brown for their exegesis and the manner in which they debate.
The issue I keep coming back to is this:
Why am I a believer and my wife isn’t?
Is it because of some better quality inherent in me that’s lacking in her or is it down to God’s choice?
These seem to be the only 2 options as far as I can see.
Faith isn't a work and believing doesn't make you any better than anyone else Jesus died for. God's 'choice' is for those who believe.
@@keith3362 But what's the deciding factor then that makes us believe?
Interesting that unbelievers express hopelessness considering White's view.
there is no assurance of salvation in Calvinism. If you think you're elect then go learn about evanescent grace. Horrifying.
14 But Jesus said, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for n of such is the kingdom of heaven."
Matthew 19:14
Strange that I have not heard any verse cited on Predestation for they are quite a number, but then maybe I missed it.
This is part 2. It's the q&a period.
I don`t understand why part 1 is missing!!??
It would have been more revealing if the debate had been more back and forth.
14:25 Remember also Jesus said in Matthew 10:37 "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me."
I find it incredible that someone as studied as Michael Brown can get it so wrong. There are many passages that speak of individuals being chosen by God, here are a few “many are called but few are chosen” gospel goes out to all, God saves his elect individual. John 6:44- “no-one (individual) can come to me unless the father draws him”. Again God choosing individuals. And the passage about Esau and Isaac was about individuals; as the context points out, as paul also mentions Jacob and Rebekah. Also in Romans 9, it says “not all who are Israel belong to Israel”- meaning individuals being set apart for God from the nation of Israel. I feel his pre- suppositions don’t allow him to see the clear texts.
If a person accepts Christ as their savior and their sins are atoned for after making a statement of belief, how can that person lose their salvation if their sins of unbelief had been atoned for?
Dr. Brown here definitely missed the point of the question, that if Christ died for the sin of "unbelief" then why is it that by "not believing" you will be lost..
For the Jerusalem above Focus on things above and not temporal!
For Jesus said forgive them they know not what they do. Make the tree good or not! Easy! That is truth!
Christ die for his bride. Duh!
Ephesians 5:25
[25]Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for her.
All that the father has given the son . will come to him .and that because he makes them willing. J 6:37. this should not be about who agrees with one or another.but about scripture.which is the final authority.
@@joserios408
That's correct.
The metaphors are important. They reflect the life and times. The Jewish father would purchase the bride for the son. The son would say to the bride "I am going to prepare a place for you in my father's house". That was Jewish custom.
After one year he would return to the bride's house and get her. I don't think whether she was willing or not mattered. 😁
Tough subject. When I study the bible I see both positions being taught. Like 2 parallel truths running through the bible. You have Romans 9 showing Gods sovereignty then the very next chapter romans 10 talking about mans free choice. Like the bible doesn't hide from this but puts them sandwiched between the two chapters on purpose keeping tension on them both. Maybe this problem is just for man and our little pee brains and is something simple for God. Either way our job as man is to repent and believe!! You do that and it doesn't matter which side your on!!
I love both these men White and Brown!! Could listen to them both for hours and hours , actual I do listen to them for hours and hours thanks to podcasts!!!
"God chose you from the beginning" in Thessalonians. The question is, what is meant by "beginning", the beginning of eternity pass or the historical time of each one's reception of God's calling?
Nelson: the Bible is very clear as to when God chose us. Ephesians 1:4-5 states, "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
God chose us in eternity past to be His. Salvation is ALL of Him.
That's a clear statement in Ephesians but not so clear in Thess. Also, what does it mean that "he hath chosen us"? Does it refer to persons in particular or in general, that is, those who believe? I contend it is the latter.
I am trying to understand your comment here. Are you saying that in believing that God chose "those who believe" you are saying that God looked off into the future and, in seeing those who would believe, He then chose them? Is this the correct interpretation of what you are saying? Please clarify and then I will get back to you. Thank you.
I am only saying that since faith is the condition a sinner must meet to be saved, God choose anyone who believes. As far as divine foreknowledge is concerned, all I can say is that, as I understand Eph 1:4 within the overall context of Scripture, Paul speaks of "us" and "we", not with reference to persons in particular, but with reference to a class of people, that is, believers. Paul is saying that before, at least, the world was created, God choose and predestined believers to be holy and adopted respectively. The reference may not necessarily be to "us" as particular individuals (w/out necessarily denying divine foreknowledge of who would/would not believe) not as specific and particular persons but, if individuals, then to individuals as believers in general. Is that clear?
Nowhere in Scripture does it say anyone is predestined to believe in CHRIST...
Someone commented that it's obscene to think an infinite God has a limited heart to save His own creation, YET, that's exactly the case. He can but He has chosen not to. Or do you claim our sovereign God is unable to save all? This is the man-centered thinking James and others speak of. Scripture is clear that nothing can thwart God's plans.
Read Romans 9 without your emotions. His ways are not our ways.
Let the scripture speak.
Why some will reject this massage Dr. Browns? ...is very clear because they are not the elect... because again Jesus said it...john 6:44...that you never talk about this passage
Im sure that I am hearing 2 people discussing 2 side's of the exact same coin.
God knows all of our stories and choices. He knows what decisions we will make, He calls us to choose Him and to repent for our sins. Those that choose Him are the elect, they are the elect because of their choices they make during their lifetime and He already knows what our choices will be. Why are we splitting the coin in two and arguing with differing Bible verses that are ultimately saying the same thing.
Tolly Locana
Am I looking at things too simplistically? But is it any point really debating this or trying to figure this out? Because in the end either you are saved or not. Jesus died for sinners which we know all men are therefore it doesn’t exclude any of us. But we also know that out of those some may never be saved. So whether we want to call it limited atonement or something else, not everyone will be saved and we know that. So I feel the debate is a bit redundant I may be over simplifying things?
In Romans 8: 29 Paul positions "Foreknowledge" before "Predestination". That puts a whole different spin on things.
Hi Simon just wondering why?
Luis Singh Hello. I consider it to add a variance to the Calvinistic worldview, because here foreknowledge appears to be related to the root cause of predestination. Romans 8: 29 implies that God 'foreknew' a people, then 'predestinated' them according to that foreknowledge. The question is; how did He foreknow them? Was it because He foresaw that people would choose Him, or is Paul merely showing that He is the author and finisher of our faith? The designer. The beginning and the end. That salvation was planned for the Gentiles long before God revealed that the Jews were the chosen people: even before time itself began. That He foreknew and favored the Gentiles, in which foreknowledge was the foundation of the faith and Christ being the completion and fulfillment of it. Thus, there is nothing in this text which communicates God choosing some and rejecting others, but that He knew the Gentiles intimately before He made the world. That they were already grafted into His knowledge.
It is very interesting to note that Peter says the same thing: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..." 1 Peter 1: 2
@@SimonPeterSutherland fore knew means foreloved.
@@CBALLEN According to what Greek dictionary?
proginōskō (G4267) From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before).
@@SimonPeterSutherland In the same sense that Adam "knew " Eve and she conceived , it is an intimate knowledge.
There is a problem if we believe like Brown, the Bible does not say to everyone that very universalism
Just trust God, believe, and be saved, but remember if you do that, is God who did it through you, John 6:44
God foreknew (because He knew & see the future who would accept Christ) hence He predestined, He called, He justified and He glorified. Those called are the elect.
God foreknew himself. When you are born again, you are a new created IN GOD. God chose himself before the world began. You have to believe the gospel. Jesus didn’t die for the sin of unbelief (John 16:9 KJV). These guys are both heretics. God is a Spirit named Jesus. The flesh of man is a mediator. God knows NO MAN after the flesh, not even the flesh of Jesus. The flesh is a creature made from sinful Mary.
19:00 sin of unbelief. 20:10
Galatians 2:16 (KJV)
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 3:12 (KJV)
And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
John 16:9 (KJV)
Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Galatians 3:22 (KJV)
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Ephesians 1:13 (KJV)
In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Isaiah 48:16 (KJV)
Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there [am] I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
Romans 8:9 (KJV)
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Revelation 19:10 (KJV)
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
God chose HIMSELF, a Spirit. You must be born again anew in God, a Spirit named Jesus
Ephesians 1:4 (KJV)
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
2 Corinthians 5:17 (KJV)
Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Romans 8:1 (KJV)
[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:4 (KJV)
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:9 (KJV)
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Colossians 3:3 (KJV)
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Jeremiah 1:5 (KJV)
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Matthew 7:23 (KJV)
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
2 Corinthians 5:16 (KJV)
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more.
Luke 24:39 (KJV)
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Galatians 3:3 (KJV)
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
1 Corinthians 6:17 (KJV)
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
2 Corinthians 3:17 (KJV)
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.
Matthew 11:27 (KJV)
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].
Romans 1:3-4 (KJV) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
2 Corinthians 5:17 (KJV) Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Philippians 3:9 (KJV)
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Romans 8:10 (KJV)
And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
John 4:24 (KJV)
God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
Romans 8:30 (KJV)
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
1 Timothy 3:16 (KJV)
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1 Corinthians 6:11 (KJV)
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1 Corinthians 1:29 (KJV)
That no flesh should glory in his presence.
Job 34:15 (KJV)
All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Acts 7:59 (KJV)
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Hebrews 12:9 (KJV)
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
John 4:24 (KJV)
God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
1 John 5:6 (KJV)
This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
Colossians 2:1-23 (KJV) 1 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and [for] them at Laodicea, and [for] as many as have not seen my face in the flesh; 2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; 3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. 5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. 6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, [so] walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
God is a Spirit Discerning the Lord’s Body!
Jeremiah 43:11 (KJV)
And when he cometh, he shall smite the land of Egypt, [and deliver] such [as are] for death to death; and such [as are] for captivity to captivity; and such [as are] for the sword to the sword.
Romans 6:19 (KJV)
I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Galatians 4:29 (KJV)
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now.
Job 19:22 (KJV)
Why do ye persecute me as God, and are not satisfied with my flesh?
John 4:24 (KJV)
God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
Romans 8:8 (KJV)
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
1 Corinthians 6:16 (KJV)
What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
Galatians 3:3 (KJV)
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
1 Corinthians 6:17 (KJV)
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
Revelation 22:17 (KJV)
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Hebrews 12:9 (KJV)
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV)
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Galatians 3:3 (KJV)
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
1 Corinthians 15:34-46 (KJV) 34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak [this] to your shame. 35 But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds. 40 [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another. 41 [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory. 42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1 Corinthians 6:17 (KJV)
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
2 Corinthians 3:17 (KJV)
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.
Galatians 3:3 (KJV)
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
1 Corinthians 6:16 (KJV)
What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
1 Corinthians 6:15 (KJV)
Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make [them] the members of an harlot? God forbid.
Romans 8:9 (KJV)
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Galatians 3:3 (KJV)
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
1 Corinthians 10:21 (KJV)
Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
1 John 3:8 (KJV)
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
John 8:44 (KJV)
Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Romans 9:8 (KJV)
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Romans 8:8 (KJV)
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Romans 8:9 (KJV)
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
John 4:24 (KJV)
God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
Galatians 3:3 (KJV)
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
If all humans are criminals, which we are, then the Judge over us is not obligated to save any. But great is the judge that serves out justice to criminals, and also chooses to show mercy to some. A judge has the freedom to show mercy and grace to all but would surely be considered a bad judge. The thought that he should show mercy on all with salvation, clearly ignores the fact that we are heinous law-breakers and criminals.
So, the judge has the right to do whatever He wants, therefore choosing to save some criminals and not others is justified? I thought only the regenerate criminals are saved. However, what this judge analogy fails to consider is that the very judge bred those people to be the criminals he ultimately condemned. That's preposterous.
mapliopl The same is true of your view unless you believe God didn't know who would be unbelievers (and therefore, go to hell) before He created them. This is why James White says the only logical and consistent synergism/Arminianism is open theism.
skalapunk
A very crude illustration, but maybe this helps make the point: it's an entirely different thing if a designer comes up with a perfect machine that has the possibility of malfunctioning when misused and the designer knows that's very likely to happen given the circumstances of the market he's going into, then one that would design an already malfunctioning machine that no matter what, won't ever become a useful machine.
We're talking about a God who either had the intent of torturing people for ceaseless ages of time and created them anyways, and another who knew that there was a little thing called free choice, and he forewarned, gave ample warning of the consequences of separation from Him.
It's more rewarding to serve a God who chose freedom in the utmost, even though some people "defected", than another who purposefully created evil people to torture them for his own purposes.
One is a gracious loving God, the other is a sadistic monster. Sorry to be blunt.
mapliopl If you believe God knows the future, then by logical implication you also believe God created people who He knew would go to hell. He could have spared their fate and not created them at all, but he didn't. He knew they'd go to hell, and still created them anyways.
So you are wrong if you think such a thing is exclusive to Calvinism. It is a fact everyone must wrestle with if they are to believe God knows the future. As I said before, the only consistent synergism is Open Theism (That God doesn't know the future)
Whoever hears, the Pharisees God never gave them ears to hear, so the only ones who will hear are the ones that God gave them ears to hear...that simple
ALL: so "ALL" things are possible with God. Can God SIN? No. "ALL" means all within a qualified sphere.
THE WORLD: Jn 12:19 shows HOW the Jews used hyperbole as part of their normative language. Brown says this was just a quote of the Pharisees, NOT a theological statement. Ok. Let's look at something the APOSTLES said . Matthew said "ALL Jerusalem and all Judea went out to see John the Baptist" (Matt 3:5). By CONSISTENT logic then, based on Brown's view, this MUST mean all without exception, in which case every single person, including all infants went to see John! Acts 19:17, written BY Luke, says "this became known to ALL no Jews and Greeks living in Ephesus, and ear came on them ALL and the name of The Lord Jesus was being magnified". Again, according to Brown's insistence, we MUST take this to mean that ALL - every single person living in Ephesus had heard about the incident of the demon-possessed man who attacked the sons of Sceva, and fear of this came on ALL of them (including the Christians? ) - yet another example of sloppy, UN-critical, biased exegesis by men like Michael - no matter how sincere he may be.
Absolutely brother in Christ. Brown is inconsistent, unbiblical, contradictory and he tap dances around the topic. He's not making any sense.
At 4:26 Dr. White's closing answer to the question that was asked, isn't it dishonest to give the gospel call to everyone knowing that some were predestined not to be part of the elect? Sure it is dishonest. Paul gave the message of course, but that was not the question put to Dr. White! He did not answer the question.
The gospel is not for all prople. The gospel is for all his elect who CHOOSES to believe in Christ. Of our was for all and everyone why did Jesus speak in parables?
It seems much of Dr white defense is built on philosophy whereas Dr browns it built on scripture
Christ death is offer to all but not everyone who believes in him, only the elect can believe.
What's up with calling yourself a Jewish believer in Christ, as opposed to just calling yourself a Christian? Seems a little weird.
Paul the apostle ask the question in Romans: is there injustice with God? Of course not he said because he would be unable to judge the world. A God from eternity past that created people for destruction has no justification to judge anyone to hell.
What is to stop the individual before God on judgement day blaming God for their unbelief and Him choosing him/her to eternity in hell? God is still justified when someone rejects Him but God did reach out to that soul. God cannot be at fault then.
xVGypsyVx "One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?"
Romans 9:19-21
The elect is simply as many as will believe but those who would be rejected are not so because God made them so but of their own choice.
"If God is for us", "who will bring a charge against God's elect?" Why limit it to a specific number and particular persons? Where in the text demands such an interpretation?
Nelson Banuchi have you followed the argument of Romans 8 into Romans 9? It clearly shows how God chooses some for salvation and hardens others. The whole book of Romans is a consistent whole that, I think very clearly, teaches Calvinism. We just find it really difficult to accept.
@@SamOwenI who would wanna accept that? The fact that God just destines people to hell for eternity...
@@justchan-8331 well he doesn't just do that. He has chosen to justly condemn some - they are punished for their sin in hell. He has chosen, purely out of grace, kind undeserved generosity, to bless some others, in Christ. None of us deserve anything but to be punished for our sins in hell. The amazing thing isn't really that some are destined for hell (the bible clearly teaches that hell is what we deserve), but that some are destined for heaven.
Brown quotes Scripture that doesnt make disclaimers about God's desire for the wicked to turn.....and calvinists call his arguments "emotional"....So I guess taking Scripture at face value, which doesnt go into theological formulas of "revealed will" vs "sovereign will", are just emotional passages that should be discarded.
the osas are gymnast...
Dr brown you have the right to be wrong
If I am the one that does the believe, where is the mercy of God? ....can you see the failure, of this kind of thinking? It contradicts itself
An answer to the predestination debate is in Ephesians chapter one. This prison epistle, written after the history of the book of acts closes, can be directly applied to all believers since it is written during this age in which we now live. However, Paul uses the word "predestinated" and "chosen" in the first eleven verses and we tend to apply that to ourselves in error.
If you read verses 3-13 very carefully, you will see that there are two groups of people Paul is referring to. This is shown clearly in the pronouns Paul uses. If you would notice, the pronouns "our, us, and we" are used in verses 3-11. These "first person" pronouns are used by Paul to tell the Ephesians what blessings were given to the apostles. If you add yourself into those descriptive pronouns you will come away with a belief that you were also predestinated. However....if you realize that in verse 12, Paul tells us exactly who those pronouns are depicting, you will see that the first group of people referred to is those who "FIRST trusted in Christ".
Then in verse 13 and 14, Paul switches his focus to "you" ( the gentile Ephesians) which now allows us to include ourselves to the subject matter. Remember, the main theme of Ephesians is to show that both Jew and Gentile are heirs TOGETHER. He tells us that "you" ALSO trusted in Christ AFTER you heard the word of truth, the GOSPEL of your salvation. Then He tells us that AFTER we "believed" we were sealed with the Holy Spirit which is the deposit guaranteeing our inheritance. We have all of those "blessings" that the "first to hope in Christ" have but....only when we consciously "believe" in the gospel of Christ.
Two groups folks.....
#1: The first to hope in Christ, the "predestined"
#2: All those who "hear", "believe", and are sealed.
And why should this surprise us?...... The eleven apostles along with Matthias are explicitly shown as "chosen". Paul himself is shown as a "chosen" vessel of Christ ....the apostle to the gentiles.
Jesus said .....Many are "called" and FEW are "chosen". (two groups)
Jesus prayed for the "chosen" AND ALSO all those who would "believe" through their words. (two groups)
In Rom 1:6 Paul calls the Roman believers the "called" NOT the chosen.
God, in His sovereignty, certainly can give you a decision making ability regarding His Son and the Gospel of His Son that does not diminish His sovereignty in any way.
Certain men were "chosen" in times past to bring about a certain historical narrative, to bring about the writing of scripture, and allow the saving actions of Jesus to happen exactly as the Father would have it. Once the ekklessia was established and the scriptures were completed, there is no need for anyone to be "chosen". You must hear the gospel... and "believe" the gospel as Eph 1 shows and God has given you a mind to do so.
Finally, some one sees it.. Thank you.. I though I was alone in my understanding.. can I post this on FB? with your YT name?
WaterGirl49 Thank you, I would love that. As many as possible need to forsake calvinism/ predestination. I also pasted two more posts up top in the recent comments.
Thank you.. and I will take a peek at the recent posts as well..
are u jewish?
Bogadile It's a good idea to address your post. If you're asking me.....no. I don't see the relevance though.
This is clear here.
God saves those that believe.
He did not create vessels of wrath, God gives everyone the opportunity to believe, and everyone could, but only those who believed God saved. Just believing does not save anybody, but is because God promissed to save the ones who'd believe.
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1 Corinthians:1:21
James White said where in the bible did the apostles say 'because Jesus did this for you, you do this' -
'Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ-this Jesus whom you crucified. Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we DO? Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:36-38, NASB) What the apostles didn't say is hope that you are one of the elect.
Dr Brown nailed it
People talk and think like if God chose a people that, how dare he do that to innocent people but we are all terrible people and deserve hell so there are NO innocent people and God should have the freedom to do as He pleases with what He created. Wouldn't any of us be offended if someone tried to tell us what to do with something we owned and created but we do that to God. We should be ecstatic that Jesus wants to save anyone of us because He shouldn't, He should send all of us to Hell, that's the amazing part is that He saves anyone. If we are truly honest with ourselves because we know how wicked our hears were before Christ and if you deny that then you are lying.
That's the problem with Brown in what he says “those who will believe” but Ephesians says 2:8, that belief is a gift from God...his beliefs or explanations are not consistent with the scriptures
And Akihito...muslims believe in pre-destination. So what is your point?
The Apostle Paul believed in predestination. (Rom 8, Eph 1, etc) That's good enough for me, a Bible believer, to believe in predestination.
John MacArthur said when an infant died, he goes to heaven instantly, because this baby even though has the original sin, ...he never has sinned, will be unfair of God to send the child to hell, James already stated, God is fair and just, I think God can instantly make the child born again God will give that child the nature of Christ...
But that's not consistent with the calvinistic doctrine of election .. Which I might add is found nowhere in the text of Scripture unless one shoves a calvinist confession paradigm into it , which is not the correct thing to do.. The bible itself is supposed to be the only authority..
The issue Dr. Brown brings is not identifying who is the elect but the idea that the Calvinistic notion of elect makes any witness of the gospel superfluous; all, even divine, "means to the end" are superfluous.
Nelson: Have you read Romans 9? That is only one place where God makes it very clear that He has an elect people. This is not a Calvinistic notion but is exactly what God teaches in His word.
S. Nathan I am not denying that the "election" is a biblical teaching; I am contending that the Calvinistic notion - how it is taught by Calvinism - of election is not biblical.
I have to ask, how is the Arminian view of the Atonement different than the Mormon view?? I ask because don't they both say that Christ paid for everyone's sins yet it's up to man to claim it. If the Arminian view is clear than Jesus didn't actually SAVE anyone but only made it possible. That's the exact same as what Mormons believe as well.
Is absurd if a man can receive God's grace by themselves, then mercy is not by faith by grace...which faith is a gift from God ... it's by the responses of the individual who will accept, then is the faith of the individual....and don't tell is prevenient faith, does not exist such a term
It seems as though Dr. Brown uses scripture to make better points, where James White, uses what is implicit in scripture to make his points.
No my dear Dr. Brown. Since people have to respond, they do it because timing inference. The response of people is not up the chart here, but they respond because they were chosen to. Humans must be aware they need to repent. Let's use a little of what jews have taught us for so long: reasoning. Repentance is not in contradiction with election.
For me, James circumvents the questions that have been put to him. Example: How does he know that he is part of the Elect? He changes the question when he begins his answer too, How does a person know that he is one of the elect? See the difference? He never reveals how he knows he is an elect. I disagree with his theology. He is very sure of what he has been taught by others who think like him and relayed this ideology onto him. He is not so sure of his election... or at least has not demonstrated that he is such. Christ gives each one of us that Blessed Assurance... because we accepted Him as our Savior.
You shall call his name Jesus for he shall save his people
If God can foresee who is going to be saved, then only these will be saved. God's foreknowledge makes the thing foreseen certain. Brown, therefore, is up against the same thing as the Calvinist because he cannot know who will believe.
Wow so much speculation about wondering if you're one of the elect or not I mean how many times did James White spell it out. I would think that it would be more important to make sure that you're saved by repenting and believing in the gospel instead of wondering if you're one of the elect or not. I understand because the doctrines of Grace can be hard to wrestle with but I believe them to be biblical after seriously considering all the scriptures there are. I used to go to a KJV only independent fundemental baptist church that believed in salvation for all and now i go to a doctrines of grace church. I have much more joy, peace,trust, and praise for God in my current church.Not to mention the teaching is wayyy better. Just using some logical Common Sense here the terms whomsoever, whole, all are very general terms. It's much more believable to me that the terms chose, chosen, the elect of God, God's elect is the way to go especially when you start seeing all the scriptures there are a lot of scriptures too many to get into about God choosing and doing things a certain way for his purposes his glory. Also just look at the stories in the Old Testament or how people came to Salvation in the New Testament or how the Apostle Paul starts his letters off the very first thing saying an apostle chose by God and he does it in multiple letters. I mean really there's so much you could get into I just don't see how you could disregard it to me it's more believable to believe that God is in complete control of everything.For example read all of romans 9.Hope this helps someone there's a lot more that I could say but I have to go.
If you believe that the wages for sin is eternal suffering in a place called hell, and you also believe that Christ took your punishment upon himself. Doesn’t this mean that Christ would be required to suffer in a place called hell for as long as you were required to do so?
If the punishment for the unsaved was conscious eternal suffering in a place called hell, then why does the Bible tell us that Christ’s soul was not left in hell?
Psalm 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
If therefore Christ was not left in hell, then his punishment had an end. This of course, presents a big problem if you believe that the penalty for our sins is suffering without end in a place called hell.
But if you understand that the wages of sin is death and not eternal conscious suffering in a place called hell, then harmony with the scriptures begins to take place.
Romans 6:23
For the wages (the payment) of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Death is the payment for sins that the law of God has always required. Therefore, death is the payment that Christ had to pay on behalf of the sins of his elect. And death is the payment all of the non-elect have to pay for their own sins. Upon death, an unsaved individual ceases to exist because his soul was dead already at the moment of conception, therefore, upon the death of the body, that individual is dead forever and has ceased to exist, or as the Bible puts it, that individual has perished.
This is why John 3:16 gives us the contrast of either living forever or perishing, which means that they cease to exist.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Christ indeed took upon himself the punishment required by the law of God and died for the sins of his chosen people, but unlike the non-elect which have no power over death, Christ (who is Almighty God) could satisfy the demands of His own law by dying and then raising himself from the dead. Thus, God righteous demand for the sins of the elect was satisfied and so, Christ did indeed take our punishment upon himself, but it wasn’t conscious suffering for an eternity in a place called hell, else He would still have to be there, but rather, it was death.
The doctrine of death being the payment for sins and not eternal suffering, teaches us that God’s punishment for sin does indeed have an end, it ends when the unsaved individual dies. It ended when Christ died for the sins of his elect, and His resurrection provided the means of eternal life for all those whose sins were laid upon Christ. And the doctrine of limited punishment, as opposed to eternal conscious punishment, is indeed taught in the scriptures.
Deuteronomy 25:1-3
If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous and condemn the wicked. 2 And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number. 3 Forty stripes he may give him, and NOT EXCEED: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem VILE unto thee.
One thing that the Bible assures us of, is that God, who has laid down the law for mankind, has bound himself to his own law. (Psalms 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: FOR THOU HAST MAGNIFIED THY WORD ABOVE THY NAME.) This law therefore would be no exception in that God cannot command that the punishment for the wicked is not to exceed a certain number of stripes, and then turn around and Himself punish the wicked without end. This type of doctrine does not harmonize with the scriptures. But when we realize that the same laws that apply to mankind also apply to God himself, then we can see that there is harmony when we also realize that death is the penalty for sin rather than eternal conscious suffering in a place called hell. Death is the end of the punishment of the unsaved.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
For the living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun.
Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, It shall die.
Was God "sovereign" when He allow Satan to rebel against Him, or did He force Satan to rebel? Was God "sovereign" when He allowed Adam to eat of the forbidden fruit, or did God force Adam to make that choice? What is called "Calvinism" today is Augustine's attempted explanation of how the infants of believers become the "elect" through infant baptism, while the children of unbelievers do not. It must be through the choice of another, since the infants cannot believe. Ephesians 1:13 reveals that regeneration does not come before faith. Do some research on what the Early Church Fathers before Augustine believed about free will. During 1689 the London Baptists attempted to correct the error of infant baptism in the Westminster Confession of faith, but ignored other errors in the document. The document also claims the 10 commandments, which they call "the moral law" (a term not found in scripture) were given to Adam before the fall, no matter what we find in Exodus 34:28, and Deuteronomy 5:1-3. They also claim we are under the 4th commandment, no matter what we find in Colossians 2:16-17. In Matthew chapter 5 Christ reveals that the New Covenant is a higher standard than the Old Covenant, ("But I say..."). Calvinism was originally connected to Reformed Covenant Theology and its emphasis on infant baptism, for the same reason as Augustine's version of the doctrine of "election". See the RUclips videos "The New Covenant" by Bob George, and "New Covenant Theology Made Simple" by David H.J. Gay.
The “elect” are unknown? Ok.
God also has the same freedom to damn infants as he does to save infants, that is, for Calvinism, "doomed from the womb." As far as abortion, under the Calvinistic notion, is not "heaven-filling", except for the elect infants, but hell-filling.
Some of the comments by anti-Calvinists here are just ridiculous and ignorant. it shows that most people who are anti-Calvinism actually have no idea what Calvinism truly is, they attack a strawman of it that they most likely learned from other rabid-anti Calvinists (not from, for example, the Synod of Dordt) Further they don't actually know what "heresy" is, they lob it around freely and carelessly.
Amen,many anti-Calvinists portray election or predestination as if there are 100 people in a room and 80 of them love Christ,the other 20 are God haters. God comes in and tells only 40 of the Christ lovers that they are elect and that they are the only ones who can be saved,the other 40 (even though they love Jesus)are not elect,therefore they must go to Hell with the 20 who hated God.
Tim Ballentine Exactly. They don't understand that the "lovers of Christ" in both Calvinism and non-Calvinism *are* the elect. They think that we believe the "elect" is some super secret group.
What's the fundamental difference then from being elect and being saved? If one chose salvation, chose Christ without knowing they are elect, regardless if they believe in election or not, the outcome is the same.
What this doctrine of election does however is clear: it portrays God as creating human beings who had no chance to be anything other than what they were just created to be. Mere robots who are here for no other purpose than to "glorify" God through their rebellion. How does sin, rampant rebellion, destruction and evil glorify God in the least?
Calvinists argue that the Armenian position doesn't fully glorify God for if He had foreknowledge people weren't going to be saved, they were created with no purpose. But this again is a straw man argument.
God didn't create people who were going to be lost for no purpose. He created us all the same, to enjoy life here and now and with the opportunity to be saved or lost eternally. Regardless, we're all equal. He just happened to know in advance, but chose to do it anyways, because then there would be no contesting on the glory of God. Remember that God is the only one with complete foreknowledge. His angels, and the entire universe would effectively judge God's actions (Romans 3:4) and He would win.
He gave everyone equal opportunity, some accepted, some rejected. God becomes glorified because He treated everyone the same, gave them the same opportunities. In the Calvinistic worldview, God decided, some I love, some I hate and I'll just demonstrate that by letting them suffer both in this life and in the afterlife. That's sadistic, that's monstrous, and I guarantee that's not God.
If were any creature to ever ask him, why did you give everyone a chance at choosing to be saved knowing they would reject it? I bet he would say, "because I am love".
Love implies, there's an unconditional acceptance of the person or object you love, regardless of the risk, regardless of who they are or choose to be. And that's God. Love.
mapliopl "What's the fundamental difference then from being elect and being saved? If one chose salvation, chose Christ without knowing they are elect, regardless if they believe in election or not, the outcome is the same."
You are correct, the outcome is the same. There is no difference. The elect are all who are saved or will be saved in the future.
The important question that drives to the heart of the issue is this: why do some people choose Christ and not others? Election is the only satisfactory answer.
It can't be because some people are "good" and others are "bad". (We're all sinful and hostile to God by fallen nature). Thus, it has to be because of grace and grace alone. In other words, if I'm willing to submit to Christ while Hitler isn't, it isn't because of something good about me, for that gives me something to boast about and I can take partial credit for my salvation. Therefore, since the difference can't be with the person, it must be grace and grace alone.
Election is an act of grace on God's part where he chooses to save sinners who don't deserve to be saved. That is why salvation is "all of grace" (not merely some of grace, but all)
1 Corinthians 1:26-31 speaks about this issue, about how our salvation isn't because of something different or good about us, but because of God's undeserved, unearned kindness alone. Thus, all grounds for boasting are stripped from the sinner, all credit goes to the Lord.
But that's your straw man, assuming that if it's my choice than it's not by grace alone. No Armenian (I hate labeling people, for example I never read Armenius) would say that or believes that, and its NOT the only conclusion you can reach if salvation is by grace alone.
Grace alone can simply imply the accomplishment of salvation, all accomplished by Christ but not imposed on anyone, freely given is the bible language. That language itself implies one has to accept the gift, and that the gift can be rejected.
So again, the Calvinist impossibility of comprehending this fact really makes it the worse straw men of all.
did pharo harden his own heart or God?
God did, because God knows the future and knows who would accept him and who wouldn't.
Both
Both.Pharaoh first hardened his own heart but when he wanted to let the Hebrews go , out of self preservation, God then hardened his heart to cause him to go after the Hebrews in order to bring complete destruction against him.
Respond to the light they have? None can be saved apart from the NAME of Jesus. When Romans says all are without excuse, it is referring to believe in God, not faith in Christ.
This is why the Word of God says NOT to forget the Simplicity that is in Christ. 2 Corinthians 11:3. What happened before all of this Theological Intellectual discourse? I'll tell you. People came to Christ, experience growth because of their following Christ and the Scriptures, and through the power and leading of the H.S., they obeyed the Great Commission. "GO" Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Keep it Simple Saints. Sometimes when people obtain all this so-called knowledge or enlightenment they almost become gnostics. It's more about their religion is theological ideology than about the Simplicity of Christ.
No, my friend, you said that lead to arrogance, it could be, but we are going to be disciplined by God if that crosses our mind, and looking on the position of Browns...where he says that's me that decides my salvation, that certainly will lead to boasting, that why in Romans 9 says that is not me that I want, but is God who had mercy on me....see the problem? When you leave man to decide his salvation...is only one belief system and is the one the God left in the Bible and is that one we must believe and accept even though I don't like it ...and Brown his belief in man’s invention...
I don't remember any part of the Bible where Jesus says follow me, I want you to be my sheep and the person says, NO. If Jesus says follow me, they always follow Him because they know His voice because they were ment to be His sheep. Other than that He never said to anyone, follow me and they refused.
Jesus draws all men to himself. Sure sounds like he's calling everyone to himself.
Judas Iscariot...
Also John 6 where He says to eat and drink Him... All his followers left except 12. In that sermon He was giving invitation, but none other than 12 remained with Him... That means even though He gave an alter call, all, including (around 70 disciples) refused Him other than the 12. After giving a call, not the new ones joined but the old ones left...
The gospel message is not 'repent and believe,' as Dr. White says. Believe what? The gospel? If we are to believe the gospel, the gospel message cannot be 'repent and believe.' A five year old could figure that out.
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.
-Acts 3:19
:)
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased.
But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit.
This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.".
:)
He loves the whole world, that is why he came to recover it...by taking the keys of the devil, the possession of this world was in the hands of the devil, he had the power of death, but in his death, Jesus destroyed that power of the devil....right now this world belongs to Jesus, and Christian knows this truth....but it's going to be a reality in the millennium kingdom, that what its means that he died for the whole world.....does not say for all humans it says for the whole world, and now all the saul belong to Jesus, with all sinners in it...but he will choose some to save out of all sinners that's very clear in the scriptures ...simple of that
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
2Co_6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
All men means Jews and Gentiles of every class but not every individual.
Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
Notice,repentance must be granted,belief is also granted,
Phil 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,..
Before time God appointed only the individuals (of all men) that He loved(men FROM every tribe tongue,nation and people,not all men in every nation) to eternal life and He is causing the Gospel to cause them to know that Christ died for them.
Acts 13:48 says this exact thing.
Acts 13:487 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the lord,AND AS MANY AS WERE APPOINTED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED!
Notice,this is not what's taught in most "churches",they teach; as many as BELIEVE ARE THEN APPOINTED to eternal life.
This is actually the anti-gospel that lies about God's word and lies to people because they don't like the actual message.Men want to make Jesus' sacrifice,not the work of actual salvation for HIS PEOPLE,but simply a TOOL for any dead sinner to use if they feel like it.God says that we are all dead sin,that none seek God,that none do good,no not ONE.this means every human who ever lived or will live,yet man tells dead sinners that this isn't true,you can seek Jesus whenever you want to,it's ALL UP TO MAN.
Tim Ballentine Tim , If you had not either read it in commentary, or been told it, you would have never come to your conclusion "every class but not every individual" on your own.
WaterGirl49 So, studying Scripture, and benefiting from the study of others, is a bad thing?
It's going from milk to meat, digging into God's Word.
When you read Hebrews 9v28a, which says that Jesus's sacrifice, His offering, was not even intended for everyone, but for the many-- what conclusion do you come to? I would imagine you just skipped over it.
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.
Calvinism denies the love of God for all His creation, saved or unsaved. It is anathema, I don't care how you dress it, James; it is obscene to believe that the infinite God has a limited heart to save His own creation. It is notable to understand that man ate out of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, NOT out of the tree of total depravity. Man is well able to be convicted of sin, yet his free will dictates his response to Christ.
You say it's obscene to think an infinite God has a limited heart to save His own creation, YET, that's exactly the case. He can but He has chosen not to. Or do you claim our sovereign God is unable to save all? This is the man-centered thinking James and others speak of. Scripture is clear that nothing can thwart God's plans.
Read Romans 9 without your emotions. His ways are not our ways.
Let the scripture speak.
@@anthonya8478 God has given His Son to the world. He paid in full the price of sin and death. It's NOT up to God to force people to come to Christ. It is UP to people to respond to the gospel and bow the knee to Christ. God is love. Learn what that means before you limit the limitless God.
By the way, I have read Romans countless times, including Romans 9. What do you find there that contradicts God's love? Please provide chapter and verse.
@@solitarypawn5076 this president/elect/Calvinism is what made me turn away from Christ...when I found out..I was just heart broken...what about the people I love in this world? The thought of them MAYBE not getting elected...I come back just to question God time to time...but no answer...I just can’t worship a God that destines someone eternally to torment...the saying “God is love” just gives me chills cause it’s a lie. I would be okay if God punishes us if we freely refuse him...but Calvinism says other wise...and because it is biblical...It made me turn away
@@justchan-8331 Calvinism is a LIE. It is a cult that has deceived thousands of thousands of lost souls. You too have fallen by the wayside because you don't understand God's love for His ENTIRE CREATION. Try to read the scriptures on your own. If you don't want to be loved by God, God will never heal you, therefore you are making a choice to spend eternity in hell.
@@solitarypawn5076 ...then why is it that 2 men filled with the Holy Spirit come up with 2 completely different understanding?
If salvation were up to her alcoholic husband and not God, why does the woman pray to God for the salvation of her husband? The truly consistent Arminian would pray to her husband to change his mind. Instead she wants to pray to God that it is God's Will to regenerate her husband, make him among God's elect. As Spurgeon indicated, Arminians pray like Calvinists. So, rather than remain true to the Word of God, Brown changes his theology to be more in line with the addled confusion of this woman???
I just listened to part 2 of this debate. Again, Dr. Brown crushed Dr. White. Dr. Brown was very clear, concise, and dropped tons of Scripture to support his position. I've heard Dr. White, and found his interpretations off. Dr. Brown painted a consistent argument throughout Scripture.
26:30 did Jesus die for unbelief
28:17 sin of unbelief…(Corporate)
19:00 unbelief; 20:10
48:51 Lord praying not for the world 😂
51:49 Summary: Spirit & Bride say come!
If Calvinism is really Scriptural why can't the Calvinist show me Scripture that proves they are chosen? Calvinism and Catholicism are the same in the end it is works based.
catholicism is faith plus works, plus sacrements.
Calvanists do Not believe that , they believe you are saved by faith alone in Christ alone. Sola Fide and Sola Christus. What they do believe is true faith and true regeneration produces works. If you are indeed saved you will change and it will be evident. As James says, "faith without works is dead"
I've been listening to James White for a few weeks now. He's very articulate and has helped me understand a lot about the bible. I can't follow him to his final conclusion though. I can't believe that God has "elected" who will be saved yet would let his only Son die on a cross so that he may lead humanity to Salvation.
Those two concepts are mutually exclusive. If God already knows why would he send his Son down to Earth? What possible purpose is there if it's already been decided?
I'll keep listening to James White but I'll listen to him with a grain of salt.
The Debate went to Dr. Michael Brown btw.
I don't follow your idea of what James White (and Reformers) say. The idea is that the Father has chosen an elect people for the Son and the Son paid the price for their sins. See: John 10. Jesus is the good shepherd. He takes care of what the Father has given Him and lays His life down for the sheep.
Joshua Forsman My point about James White and Calvinists in general is why would God send his Son as an inspiration to humanity but then have already decided who was going to be inspired in the first place. It doesn't make sense to me. Why even try when it's all been pre-determined? Conversely I find it hard to believe that God would be so cruel as to reject someone who has followed Jesus his entire life but wasn't one of the "elect" so God just ignored him. Imagine if God didn't consider James White one of the elect? James White gets to heaven and God says....naaahhh....Sorry James. I never chose you in the first place. That seem really really f'ed up and not very God like to me.
Nobody follows Jesus who isn't elect. The ones chosen (John 10) are those who are born from above (John 3) and respond to his masters call.
Joshua Forsman So if you follow Jesus you can just kick back because you're going to heaven. That would actually make me act less Christian because I would feel like I didn't have to do more than just follow Jesus. It would make me feel almost arrogant and "holier than thou" because I would always be thinking I've got it made. The analogy would be like if I won the lottery and didn't have to work anymore. I would be financially rich but everything would lose meaning because I could just check out of life.
Back to Christianity I wouldn't feel motivated to spread the religion because I would think any action by me couldn't attract someone to Christianity as that decision has already been made.
You can kind of see this here in the debate between James and Michael. To me James is very cold and mechanical while Michael is much warmer. To me that's because James is thinking it's all been decided before hand. There's nothing he could say that will change reality. Whereas Michael is shedding more light.
I really want to believe in Calvinism but it's such a hyper-literal reading of John 10 it's got no credibility with me.
darkmath100 people don't go to heaven as a reward for their good deeds/adherence to the law. It is simply because of what Christ did. The righteousness of Christ is attributed to sinners who deserve hell, by grace through faith. This is absolutely essential to the gospel.
That faith is achieved by God himself, the spirit transforms the believer's heart, and the Father draws these people to the Son. It all fits.
You may not need to know the identity of the elect but to tell someone that they may be saved without explicitly telling them it is only on the condition they are the elect is apparently dishonest.
Here is the dishonesty. White advises the one questioner who is fearful he is not elect. One cannot enter God's salvation based upon their own works, it is true, but neither can one do so if he is not elect. He says, God has provided salvation to every person who repents and believes but, ultimately that is not the case. The truth of the matter is, in the first place, God has provided salvation alone to the elect who will repent and believe. In the second place, to assume that because one is fearful of not being elect he is being directed by the Holy Spirit is presumption on White's part, since a person may exhibit a fear of death and hell without ever turning to Christ.
Unbelief can be forgiven because when a person repents they no longer commit that sin. It is no different from any other sin. There is only one unpardonable sin, blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
Unbelief can only be forgiven if one chooses to believe..
@@cecilspurlockjr.9421 Correct.
White affirms that Christ sacrifice is sufficient for every person who returns to him but neglects to inform you that it is only the elect who will turn to God and, therefore, atonement is only sufficient for those who are elect. Is this not being (unconsciously) dishonest?
Nelson Banuchi you're using the word sufficient in two contradictory ways. You're mistaken.
Some of you have made "calvinism" your religion and it is very sad. It is you who preach and teach it fervently while non calvinists just do our best to rebut it. You preach it to believers in Christ who don't believe it. You don't preach it to non believers because that wouldn't be the gospel or "good news" at all. No, you preach the same gospel to them as we do. But in doing so you are deceptive in holding back what you think to be true.
You label yourselves after a 16th century catholic theologian who continued the teachings of another 4th century catholic theologian. You take three small sections of the entire Bible completely out of context and create a damnable doctrine of demons out of it. You can't reconcile how supposedly, God "chooses" every saved individual and then holds accountable the masses of helpless individuals who were born damned by God at birth unto destruction....and yet this makes sense to you. You call "grace" the thing that God gives only to a small few while punishing the rest of humanity. You think you espouse the sovereignty of God while you malign the just character of Him. Predestination and the punishment of God are incompatible.
There are a very few passages that teach predestination compared to the hundreds that imply that man has been given the ability to "believe" not just the gospel message but any other piece of information. Those few passages that you cling to can easily be shown to speak of a very small group of elect men, all from Israel, that had a very specific purpose.
In debating torah observers who claim to "believe" in Christ and yet put enormous merit into the necessity of following the law, I question their salvation though they seem so devoted. They are a classic example of those who have a form of godliness while denying the power thereof. You who are calvinists also deny the power. The power I refer to is the gospel message since it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES. (Rom 1:16) for god gave us who BELIEVE on His name the power to become the sons of God. Jhn 1:12 and we are kept by the power of God unto the salvation ready to be revealed in the last time, BY FAITH.
The "power" that you deny while having a form of godliness, is the "gospel" in which God has given you the ability to "believe". If you are "predestined" then believing is not needed and the gospel is void of it's power. If you don't have the ability to "believe" of your own volition, then all truth is obsolete and the cross is a hoax. If you are not able to "believe" then the bible is a book of deception and God has placed you in a matrix.
The gospel is the power of salvation....not your power but God's power effected in you upon your belief. The word clearly teaches that you must believe the gospel to be saved. The object of the gospel is the cross. If salvation comes by predestination, then it doesn't come by believing the gospel message concerning the cross. If righteousness is attained by predestination, then Christ died in vein.
: ) excellent
My friend, it's astounding how much you misunderstand or have been misinformed about Calvinism, more properly called the Doctrines of Grace.
1. Neither Calvin nor Augustine were "catholic theologians." The Roman Catholic Church did not exist (as it does today) in the 4th Century. And Calvin left the Catholic church, helping to start what was known as the Protestant Reformation (emphasis on the "Reform" part of the word "Reformation"- ergo, "Reformed Theology").
2. In no way do Calvinists "follow" Calvin or is Calvinism their religion. Christianity is their religion. Why do Calvinists not say noncalvinists' religion is Wesleyanism or Arminianism? Because it's not true. We're brothers and sisters in Christ, so we better start getting along now- we'll be spending a long time together in the future.
3. Calvinists don't change the Gospel because they don't have to: John 3:16 rings true in our ears just as it does in yours. We glory in the fact that if someone confesses with their mouth and believes with their heart that Jesus is Lord and God raised him from the dead and repents from their sin then they will be saved! But belief is still a condition. If we are saved, it was because we believed. If we believe, it was because we were made alive by the power of the Holy Spirit (eph 2).
4. Calvinists do not take away the power of the Gospel; they just recognize that the Gospel is always God's Gospel, and therefore God's power. Calvinists love what the triune God did on the cross: sent Christ to propitiate our sins, i.e., the sins of the elect [the Father]; tasted and overcame death in our place [the Son]; and secured our Salvation for the future [the Holy Spirit].
Hopefully that clears away at least a bit of the misunderstanding I saw in the comment, but even more importantly I hope it was edifying to us and glorifying to God.
Let us not forget to thank the Gracious God who died for us so that we might believe that we can even discuss the nature of the atonement and soteriology! May it be to the praise of the glory of his grace!
dagl086
With all due respect.....Please spare me. I have heard every argument from Calvinists and still consider it a doctrine of demons. "Grace" is NOT defined in the bible as God predestinating (without condition) some to salvation and others (most others) to damnation. My friend....that is not grace, that is maniacal. Not because I say so , but because the bible defines grace as loving kindness, and also, the antithesis to "works".
If you wish to discuss this honestly and with an open mind, I'm game. But let's do it one point and one passage at a time.
Answer me this.....who would you say were the first ones to hope in Christ?
I have no desire to discuss (or exegete) via RUclips comments- I've acquired a theological degree, am working on another, and have figured out what I believe about the scriptures, as I'm sure you have, too. I just want my brothers and sisters in Christ to understand that Calvinists (and I use the term only because you do) are Christians too. No one is born a Calvinist; we discover it through a careful exegesis of the text alone and believe it by the grace of God. As a fellow believer in Christ, I ask you to show grace to those with whom you disagree! John tells the Church that those outside the church will know that we are of Christ by how we love one another, which we do by showing grace to others. If correction is needed, and among the young restless and reformed crowd it surely is, then let us give correction through love and charity (Eph 4:14-15).
Grace and Peace to you, my friend!
dagl086 Ehem....It is you who started the discussion with me. Theological degree? Oh that's too bad. lol....just teasing. Honestly though.....I do not regard theological degrees because I do not believe they are all that biblical. It shouldn't be something to be worn on one's sleeve either. Believe me when I say....I am an extremely loving person.....however, I am on the side of truth. I live, eat, sleep, and breath the scriptures. I truly, with every fiber of my being, believe calvinism is a false doctrine. I have not found a calvinist on here yet that will honestly answer questions and you have just dodged the one I asked with the excuse that you don't want to debate online when it is you who started the conversation.
Here is Christ like love. ....I pray that you will come to the truth about the nature and character of God and be released from the doctrine of demons that you hold to. General predestination has a side car attached called double predestination, I'm sure you're aware. This kind of God is not the God I worship. It is a kind of God dreamed up by Greek Philosophers. A small few were "elect" according to a very specific purpose a very long time ago. Your contextual timing is completely off. Many are called, few were chosen.
James White gives God his so called (and book title) Potter's freedom up to the point of God having the freedom to create beings who have free will. He doesn't give God that freedom because it's not part of Calvinism. What a joke. Calvinists should just write their own bible, instead of this - For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:40, NASB) it would say 'For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who is elected without any condition will have eternal life and no one else.