Predestination debate: For whom did Christ die? - Part 1
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
- www.revelationt... Dr Michael Brown and Dr James White debate and discuss Predestination: For whom did Christ die? The debate was moderated by Presenter Tim Vince (Sky Digital 581 and Freesat 692, live stream: www.revelationtv.com). Our hope is to be a faithful witness to biblical truths in these challenging times. Please pray that the Lord will be honoured during this important broadcast. Do also encourage others to watch too.
I love James White! You are such a wealth of knowledge Doctor White and a blessing to many.
False teacher
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased.
But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit.
This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.".
.
James White has been a tremendous blessing to me.
My God of the Bible has been a tremendous blessing to me. Not James White. God bless you.
More than half of protestants reject faith-alone. You and white are in the minority.
@@mercibeaucoup2639 Dumb comment
@@michaelmannucci8585
THE ROMANS ARE TO BLAME FOR DEATH OF JESUS. AND YOU ARE ONE OF THEM. NOW THAT’S A DUMB COMMENT LOL. MR. MANNUCCI, I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST ITALIANS LIKE YOU. ACTUALLY, MY MOTHER WAS BORN IN PALERMO. WAS MY MESSAGE SUPERCALIFRAGILISTICEXPIALIDOCIOUS.
@@weobeyjesus4565 faith alone is what saves. Whites calvinism isn't biblical but salvation by grace through faith is clear
Thank you for making this debate available. Good stuff!
Also, Dr. Brown is incessantly referring to "the world" as if it means every person who ever lived, when if it is taken in context with the rest of Scripture, it's pretty obvious to me that the writers are making sure their readers know it is *not only for the Jews*, but all people of every tribe and tongue to whom the gift of salvation can be received. That is clearly the intent of the New Testament writers throughout.
What part of the "world" part you don't understand? If God is infinite in all that He is, suddenly He "changes" His mind and becomes stingy by only atoning for the few? If God IS LOVE, how come He creates the majority in order to send them to hell?
@@solitarypawn5076 since God is omniscient and omnipotent He has the power and plan to create men knowing they are reprobate. Why does He create them at all? It is His plan and Romans 9 tells us that He gets glory in (rightfully) punishing sin (vessels of wrath).
@@hsdjsdshdhsdnsmsd6247 God still created them so you don't get Him off the hook by denying His sovereignty. Read 1 Timothy in context. Paul writes about all KINDS of people (vs 1-2). Keep reading, does Jesus meditate (vs 5) and pay the ransom (vs 6) for every single person who ever lived? Of course not, that would be universalism!
@@jackykimes Ah, calvinists favorite word: "sovereignty". I read the context and it doesnt support your interpretation. Paul doesnt say "all kinds of people", thats what you want to read into it. I dont deny Gods "sovereignty" since I dont deny that God has the power to create people just to put them in hell. However, that would make him a sadistic monster worse than Hitler. Just because God has the power to do something, doesnt meant that He does it. And yes, Jesus paid the ransom for ALL people. The people just have to accept that gift.
@@hsdjsdshdhsdnsmsd6247 Let me just say that you (and countless others) misunderstand the fact that Adam and Eve had complete free will and chose to dishonor God's command. Just one command at that. Now we are all under sin and by default a byproduct of that fall. We are all guilty of condemnation, and we are all responsible for everything we do. This is the part that everyone misses. God doesn't have to save any of us, but the fact that He does is a testament to His grace and mercy. The notion that God being completely sovereign upsets some people is the height of arrogance in demanding that we be the master of our own fate. That is what apostacy looks like.
The converse of that is men 'just have to accept that gift', which still doesn't get God 'off the hook'. For why would a "loving God" create a race of humans knowing full well that most would reject that gift and suffer the fate of condemnation? That isn't very loving. He didn't think that one out? In either case, you are putting God on the hot seat for failing to insure that all are saved. Why would a loving God allow disease, or famine, or disabilities? And why would a resurrected Christ only appear to a few, when appearing to as many as possible would seem to have given more people the opportunity to believe???
Let’s spend more time dreaming how we can be a reflection of Jesus to a broken world.
Both of these gentlemen are doing that. Everything about the Christian faith is important that's why we debate about it. It would be good if you contribute and stick to the main issue. No one is arguing against what you're saying.
Step 1: make a comment that God should be our focus, even though we are literally discussing Him.
Step 2: pretend anybody involved in the discussion is somehow not glorifying God and is in desperate need of rebuke.
Step 3: if somebody challenges my claim, pivot quickly and throw out another one liner about unity or God being in control and go back to step 1.
Step 4: smile after successfully stifling important discussions that believers should be having.
The issue is how we evangelize based off what is true.
The title to this video is answered obviously in scripture.
1. No one is predestined to hell. It is written, “It is God’s will that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.” If God’s will is clearly defined here, but people still go to hell, it must mean that it’s not purely God’s will that impacts our eternal fate (because if it was everyone would go to heaven). The only other wills able to impact our decisions are the wills of the powers of darkness and our own. We know further that God didn’t alter these wills, because if He did He would be altering them to get people to heaven and not everyone goes to heaven. This demonstrates that the wills of the powers of darkness and humanity are not impacted by God to the degree of wholly deciding eternal destinations. If this is the case then it must be either the wills of the powers of darkness that confine decisions, or our own. We know that the will of the powers of darkness is one and the same: to kill, steal, and destroy. So if the will of Satan and his kingdom was enough to totally impact the eternal destination of humanity, everyone would end up in hell. This, however, is not what we see. That only leaves one will that has the power to impact our decisions to the degree of determining our eternal destination: our own. That’s why it is also written in the book of Deuteronomy, “I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live.” We have a choice to choose between life and death, heaven and hell. To deny this is to objectively deny scripture.
2. Jesus Christ died for everyone. As it is written in 1 Corinthians 5:15, “He died for all.” End of debate.
Personally I think to even question this as if it’s debatable is disgusting. To say Christ didn’t die for all is to say Christ shows favoritism (willingness to die for some and not others), which is to misrepresent who Jesus is. Jesus is light and “in Him there is no darkness at all.” How then could He show favoritism which is condemned in the book of James as evil? Jesus died for all, it says it blatantly in scripture.
Very well said!!!
Keep reading your Bible
@@annad8636 I just quoted the Bible, you didn’t because you have no reply. I’ll let that speak for itself.
@@JoshuaTCoe
Election is the act of God whereby in eternity past He chose those who will be saved. Election is unconditional, because it does not depend on anything outside of God, such as good works or foreseen faith (Romans 9:16). This doctrine is repeatedly taught in the Bible, and is also demanded by our knowledge of God. To begin with, let's look at the biblical evidence.
The Bible says prior to salvation, all people are dead in sin--spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1-3). In this state of death, the sinner is utterly unable to respond to any spiritual stimulus and therefore unable to love God, obey Him, or please Him in any way. Scripture says the mind of every unbeliever "is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:7-8, emphasis added). That describes a state of total hopelessness: spiritual death.
The effect of all this is that no sinner can ever make the first move in the salvation process. This is what Jesus meant in John 6:44, when He said, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him."
This is also why the Bible repeatedly stresses that salvation is wholly God's work. Consider these passages:
In Acts 13:48 we read, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."
Acts 16:14 tells us that Lydia was saved when, "... the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul."
Romans 8:29-30 states, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."
Ephesians 1:4-5,11 reads, "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will ... also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."
Ephesians 2:8 says even our faith is a gift from God.
In 2 Thessalonians 2:13, the apostle Paul tells his readers, "God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation."
Second Timothy 1:9 informs us that God "has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity."
Occasionally someone will suggest that God's election is based on His foreknowledge of certain events. This argument suggests that God simply looks into the future to see who will believe, and He chooses those whom He sees choosing Him. Notice that 1 Peter 1:2 says the elect are chosen "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father," and Romans 8:29 says, "whom He foreknew, He also predestined." And if divine foreknowledge simply means God's knowledge of what will happen in advance, then these arguments may appear to have some weight behind them.
But that is not the biblical meaning of "foreknowledge." When the Bible speaks of God's foreknowledge, it refers to God's establishment of a love relationship with that person. The word know, in both the Old and New Testament, refers to much more than mere cognitive knowledge of a person. Such passages as Hosea 13:4-5; Amos 3:2 (KJV); and Romans 11:2 clearly indicate this. For example, 1 Peter 1:20 says Christ was "foreknown before the foundation of the world." Surely this means more than that God the Father looked into the future to behold Christ! It means He had an eternal, loving relationship with Him. The same is true of the elect, whom we are told God "foreknew" (Romans 8:29). That means He knew them--he loved them--before the foundation of the world.
If God's choice of the elect is unconditional, does this rule out human responsibility? Paul asks and answers that very question in Romans 9:19-20. He says God's choice of the elect is an act of mercy. Left to themselves, even the elect would persist in sin and be lost, because they are taken from the same fallen lump of clay as the rest of humanity. God alone is responsible for their salvation, but that does not eradicate the responsibility of those who persist in sin and are lost--because they do it willfully, and not under compulsion. They are responsible for their sin, not God.
The Bible affirms human responsibility right alongside the doctrine of divine sovereignty. Moreover, the offer of mercy in the gospel is extended to all alike. Isaiah 55:1 and Revelation 22:17 call "whosoever will" to be saved. Isaiah 45:22 and Acts 17:30 command all men to turn to God, repent and be saved. First Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 tell us that God is not willing that any should perish, but desires that all should be saved. Finally, the Lord Jesus said that, "the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out" (John 6:37).
In summary, we can say that God has had a special love relationship with the elect from all eternity, and on the basis of that love relationship chosen them for salvation. The ultimate question of why God chose some for salvation and left others in their sinful state is one that we, with our finite knowledge, cannot answer. We do know that God's attributes always are in perfect harmony with each other, so that God's sovereignty will always operate in perfect harmony with His goodness, love, wisdom, and justice.
@@annad8636
You said we are spiritually dead before we enter into the covenant with Christ.
100% agree.
You said:
“The effect of all this is that no sinner can ever make the first move in the salvation process. This is what Jesus meant in John 6:44, when He said, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him."
This is also why the Bible repeatedly stresses that salvation is wholly God's work.”
100% agree.
You said:
“Foreknowledge (Romans 8:29)” is to say God loved the elect before the foundation of the world.
100% agree.
You again:
“God alone is responsible for their salvation, but that does not eradicate the responsibility of those who persist in sin and are lost--because they do it willfully, and not under compulsion. They are responsible for their sin, not God.”
Predestination means we don’t have a choice. You're saying we have choice here, debunking your own argument.
You again:
“Isaiah 45:22 and Acts 17:30 command all men to turn to God, repent and be saved.”
Again, you’re destroying the idea we’re predestinated. If we’re predestinated we have no choice. How then, can we be commanded to choose to turn, repent, and be saved? If we were predestined we couldn’t choose and if we couldn’t choose then God’s command telling us to choose would be nonsensical. Not to mention it would make Him evil for sending people who had no choice in the matter to hell.
More of you:
“The ultimate question of why God chose some for salvation and left others in their sinful state is one that we, with our finite knowledge, cannot answer.”
Now you’re off the rails. You just spent many many words proving my point, not yours. Now, when you get to the end you say God left some out. He didn’t leave anyone out. It says He wants all to be saved. If it was up to Him no one would be left out. The truth is the sinner leaves themself out. That’s the part where they chose to sin/reject God.
You for the last time:
“We do know that God's attributes always are in perfect harmony with each other, so that God's sovereignty will always operate in perfect harmony with His goodness, love, wisdom, and justice.”
Accept here, on your view, they don’t operate in harmony with love. How can a loving God create someone, give them no choice in the matter, and send them to eternal torment? How could that possibly be just? It couldn’t be, so free choice must be given to justify condemnation. If not, God isn’t just. Currently, on your view that people can be sent to hell of no fault of their own… God isn’t just. That’s something you have to reconcile with your position.
Lastly, you didn’t address my arguments. 1) God desires all men to be saved. So if God predestined anyone to a destination He’d be predestinating them to heaven, because your bible says His desire is everyone go there. And if God predestines one to heaven He must predestinate all to heaven because your bible says God does not show favoritism. 2) Your bible says explicitly that God gives us a choice (Deut 30:19) to live [be saved] or die [remain in spiritual death]. If we have the choice to choose we aren’t predestined because predestination says we don't have a choice in our destination because it's already been chosen. But we do have the choice to be saved or not, so predestination cannot be the case.
I think we won't be ever able to reconcile predestination and free will along the line. There are some logic limitation in our human sphere that we are unable to comprehend, just as trying to represent a 4th dimension, the divine dimension and scope. Although seeing these two brothers and doctors in theology debating and displaying respect to each other is a delight! :)
We absolutely can reconcile predestination and "free will" because when we read through the entirety of Scripture we find that man's concoction of "free will" doesn't exist in Scripture or reality, only a creaturely will that is enslaved to sin and unrighteousness before the Lord sovereignly breaks those chains and then enslaves us to Himself, the good and righteous King of kings.
Very interesting debate! It’s a pity, though, that it was fairly clear that the moderator favoured one side over the other.
Nelson, Jesus said no man can come to me unless it were given him of my Father.
The Lord Jesus also said that He laid his life down for the sheep.
Jesus did not Say He laid his life down for the vipers, the swine, the goats, the foxes. The Lord Jesus is the shepherd who gives to his sheep eternal life. He is not a zookeeper.
Believing is a gift from God Ephesians chapter 2 verses 8 through 10.
Jesus told some Jews that the reason that they could not hear him was because they were not of his sheep.
You need to read all of that passage and not take it out of context
Yes, but he saves the flies and mosquitoes and spiders...😆😂😅 Including the fish...
Youre stucked on that one verse that out of context
A dead man can't respond to the Gospel. He must be regenerated. If he's regenerated he's one of the Elect. God doesn't cause the non elect to be regenerated. Only those who were given to Christ come to Him.
Yes Dr. Brown forgiveness is actuated before faith, because it is written: "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin".
Here is absolute proof Calvinism is NOT Biblical: In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."
@@Mike-qt7jp As I have shown, only some are not imputed with sin, who are called "blessed".
Masterclass from Dr. White!
😂
You’ve never read the Bible outside of your theology books, right? What’s the difference between you and a Catholic reading scripture through their creeds?
Here is absolute proof Calvinism is NOT Biblical: In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."
They are both my brothers but I agree with Dr White, Jesus Christ is not a weak begger but a powerful Savior and as He said He loses NONE that The Father gives Him.
Rad debate. I respect both these guys and their work. Can not stand the host though, haha. Guy is really good at butting in at the wrong time.
I am a born again Christian, I have been studying Biblical Scripture and this issue of Predestination / the Elect / & Free Will, it is perplexing. Now I am having more questions than I began after listening to this debate. 🤦♀️😧 Lord have Mercy 🙏 🙏🙏 I’ll be praying for answers, not on RUclips, although RUclips has been a commendable source of benefit!! 😊
I would start with a central issue - What/who are the Elect? Where do we find the definition of elect?
I would start with this study and begin by making the standard for the definition to only be found in Scripture.
Get yourself a Hebrew and greek lexicon and concordance, finding every usage of Elect in greek, find it in the septuagint, and cross reference it with the hebrew, and see how it was translated into our own language.
After finding every usage in every form, I would make a spreadsheet for easy reference as you go, then you can come back to those passages dealing with election and predestination.
Take also the specific versus general calls of God seen throughout, and see in which usages it has fallen into.
My take away from using the induction method: It is not one or the other but both. God calls all to repentance and provides the way and ability to all. BUT. God also calls specific people for a purpose of His will in order to spread the Gospel and fulfill His plan. We have both usages, but ultimately, I would argue for Libertarian free will working inside of God's plan, in which He calls all people and draws everyone to Himself through the Gospel and calls us to obey Him and spread the Gospel to all nations making disciples.
Everyone is called and can be saved, but only those who will place their faith in Christ receive the full calling and predestining. Predestining to what? To adoption as sons (and daughters) of God and eternal life with Him, and called to good works prepared beforehand in Christ.
Certain were chosen, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc were chosen to be the physical chain through which Messiach would come. Jesus was the only one chosen before the foundation of the world that those who place their faith in Him would then be predestined to what is mentioned above.
That is what I found and concluded, but, again, I encourage you to study it yourself starting with definitions found in Scripture, not definitions imposed by a particular view of the doctrines as it will skew your lenses and it will become more of a confirmation bias for that view you are looking for. Let the Word be taken as it stands and let God be true and every man a liar.
God bless, and enjoy your walk through Scripture.
Here is absolute proof Calvinism is NOT Biblical: In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."
@@Elmarias777Well said My Fellow Christian.
Any serious Bible student who takes the time to look at all the verses concerning the matter of who Christ died for, will see and know that Christ died particularly for his elect people that he chose before the foundation of the world and gave these people the grace of Christ not when they believed, but before the foundation of the world! See second Timothy chapter 1.
Roy Lange Explain the verses that say God wants everyone to be saved then??? 1 timothy 2:4 "who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth". If he predestined the "elect" before sin was even in the world. Then there is no way God really wants "everyone to be saved". The fact that You Say anyone who does not believe in your opinion in not a serious Bible student is very ignorant and it is very disappointing that you could be that prideful. You could be right, Who knows. But to say anyone who doesn't believe what you believe isn't a serious Christian is just not right. Both these debaters made some great points! Both are great christian examples.
1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL men, ESPECIALLY of THOSE THAT BELIEVE.
Michael Brown's prayer: thank you God that I had the good sense and spiritual sensitivity to appreciate what your Son did on the cross and to believe on him. I thank you God that I chose you you did not choose me. I thank you God that you will have mercy on who I say you will have mercy on. I thank you God that you said husbands love your wives even as Christ loved everybody and gave himself for everybody.
Why do you mock? Does it further the debate? I could turn that prayer around just as easy.
I mock because Michael Brown rejects the Gospel. It is heresy. Predestination unto salvation, God's sovereign power to save whom He will when He chooses, the particular death of Christ for His sheep only are core watermarks of genuine Biblical Christianity.
Search: 4345819 on youtube for helpful teaching.
Roy Lange 1) How does Brown reject the Gospel? Define your claim.
2) How has Brown propagated heresy? That is a serious accusation to make. Define your claim.
I could say that 'Limited Atonement' rejects the Gospel and that it too is heresy? But what would that prove? Claims mean very little, nor do 'Statements of Faith'. You make a claim and 'Statement of Faith', but do not substantiate it with Scripture. However, any learned and open minded Christian would admit the Scriptures can affirm both views.
You say "helpful teaching". I have read Augustine, Calvin, Owen, (Synod of Dort) Westminster Confession (Chapter 3 Paragraph 6) and modern Calvinists, (MacArthur, Piper, Nicole, Sproul etc) and am familiar with the Augustine & Pelagian Controversy.
Simon Peter Sutherland
Brown rejects the Gospel in the sense that He rejects the clearly stated doctrines of the truth about how an individual is saved. The Bible says it is based on God's unconditional election of His good pleasure and will, and God reprobates whom He will. The whole theme of the Bible is divine election. Particular, or limited atonement is repeatedly and plainly set forth in Scripture for any honest reader. If you read Owen and know the position of so called TULIP, and reject it, you reject the very framework and watermarks of the genuine Gospel, that no serious and honest Bible student can dispute.
Roy Lange 2.
I would also like to add that you say to reject " TULIP" is to reject the Gospel. Are you willing to affirm that view in light of the information that neither John Wycliffe, or the 16th century Reformers William Tyndale, Thomas Cranmer, Martin Luther, John Frith and so forth all rejected or denied the Gospel because they clearly did not agree with a 'Limited Atonement' or 'Irrisistible Grace'.
I realize they were pre 'Synod of Dort' and the systematization of 'Tulip', but their writings affirm they saw no 'Limit' to the redemptive purposes of God in Christ. Even John Bunyan in the 17th century did not agree to 'Dorts' recent affirmation of 'Limited Atonement'. Because Calvin was vague on the issue, there is a case to say he never taught 'Limited Atonement'. In his commentaries Calvin appears to affirm the scriptures reveal that God had no limited intentions to the redemptive purposes of God.
Concerning Romans 5: 18 Calvin wrote the following; "He makes this favor common to all, because it is propounded to all, and not because it is in reality extended to all; for though Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, and is offered through God’s benignity indiscriminately to all, yet all do not receive Him." (Calvin's Commentaries Volume X1X. P 211. Romans 5: 18)
This and many more texts affirm that there is a case to claim that even Calvin himself may not have taught 'Limited Atonement'. Even John Owen in 'Death of Death' refers to Calvin only once. Why is that?
And I love my calvinist reformed brothers but they can often be very arrogant (as some of the comments below reflect) as knowledge puffs up. Glad to see Dr White not living up to the stereotype in this debate. Both showed humility and respect.
***** Amen Keith- I think Brown and White are good examples for us both to follow as they model how brothers can interact over issues we disagree on. Blessings and Love.
Don Jay Amen, man. I'm Armenian in my view on this particular topic. I find it disgusting when "fundamentalists" call Calvinists "satanic". Some of my family hold this view. This is a disagreement within the church. It's a disagreement. People interpret different passages of Scripture clearly. White is an amazing scholar and so is Brown. Point blank, we're the Church. We're supposed to be bonded, whether Calvinist or Armenian. Disagreements happen, between friends and family. It's obvious disagreements shall arise between us Christians as well. But, the point remains, we're brothers and sisters in Christ. Family comes first.
Its interesting that any one who knows JESUS can call James White is a brother in Christ.
In other debates and on his show, Mr White comes across as very arrogant
Love both these guys. White's points and exegesis (using that term loosely here) was fantastic.
Limited atonement is contrary to what's clearly stated in scripture. So id say it's eissegesis
Here is absolute proof Calvinism is NOT Biblical: In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."
its unfortunate that Dr. Brown makes his opening statement committing a very common exegetical error in not allowing context to define words. he believes if "world" means one thing in one passage, then it MUST mean the exact same thing in every passage that it is used.
even if we grant him his defining of 'world' in john 3:16, only those who are the believing ones will obtain eternal life and romans 8:6-9 and eph 2:8-9 tell us where that ability to believe comes from.
honestly though, with what Dr. Brown is advocating in saying that God died for the sins of every single person, wouldn't we then conclude that God has a desire to save every single person but ultimately doesnt?
wouldn't this then make God.....a failure??
WuAgent Bingo! That's it.ruclips.net/video/MqA3tyBpN4E/видео.html
I'm not an OT or Hebrew scholar like Dr. Brown so I would appreciate if someone can enlighten me. It seems the passage in Leviticus does not support his position since the "entire nation" he is referring to is God's chosen people. The High Priest did not offer sacrifices for the Amalakites or the Philistines. But I feel like I must be missing something since Dr. White doesn't point this out either.
The cross is no longer any intercession for those in hell because they have refused the intercession of Christ and after death there is no longer any hope of repentance. I think White misunderstands what is the intercession of Christ.
White is pressing a point and not listening to the answer.
Michael has the mustache that James needs, James has the goatee that Michael needs :D
the host kind of interrupts stuff and makes it difficult to have on point responses
There were great points on both sides, but 1 exclusive point which Dr. Brown makes is the intercession of Yeshua is parallel with Leviticus 16 when the priest intercede for the whole nation of Israel. If you understand Torah God says "Choose" life (Leviticus 30) the intercession of Messiah MUST be parallel to the intercession of the levitical priest in Torah.
Let's make a plain and simple analogy.
There is a nation of thirsty people. THE priest says, "Hey here is water so you may Live!." There will be some who will choose to drink and some who will choose not to drink. The ones who drink water live and the ones that don't die.
This is the basic lesson dr. Brown is pointing out.
"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." Mark 16: 15
If that commission was and is offered to "every creature" as Jesus said, but the intention of it was only made to bring in the elect, then the offer itself is a lie. And that is unthinkable!
But the Gospel as you see it is unjust, since Jesus came only to save the Elect, the rest of the world can literally 'go to hell'.
I will question what is pleasing to God when God is interpreted by men.Thus, if as you say, "God demands obedience" then why does He command all men everywhere to repent" Acts 17: 30, if He has condemned them already?
"We" is a very loose word from you. I'm not questioning God, I'm questioning your 17th century puritan separatist worldview.
Owenisn is no eternal authority whatsoever!
Acts 13:48
@@ManlyServant And where does that ordaining exclude anyone? Luke does not say fore-ordained, neither does he reference an assembly determined from eternity but what was done then. G5021 does not reference any predestination, but an arranged appointment.
@@SimonPeterSutherland im just quoting,but you get defensive even without me telling what is my stance in comment,this shows that this verses testifies against you
White is making the erroneous assumption that the effect of the atonement is automatic; upon that assumption is universalism is the only option.
Also, he his erred to say that the sacrifices in the OT are only for those who draw near. The Hebrew texts show that the atonement was for the nation; it's effect was not automatiic but conditioned upon humbling oneself under it.
Consistency is not necessarily proof of interpreting the Scriptures correctly.
Exactly, because if your are wrong in your thought process, then you will be consistently wrong...
This question is for the those who are neither Calvinist nor Open theist who affirm God is creator of all things, knows all things and never learns yet they also affirm things can happen without God intending them to happen.
How can anything happen in this world that is not ultimately God’s intention, when the existence of this world depended entirely upon God’s intentional act to create it; which He did with 100% certainty about all that would happen as an inevitable consequence of His intention to create?
Prior to creation, how could God have had infallible foreknowledge of Himself making a free choice (How it could be a free choice yet infallibly foreknown I don't know) to create this particular world in which he knew the evil choices of His creatures would consequentially exist, without intending to make this infallibly foreknown free choice (Unintended free choice!! Yes it gets stranger) to create this particular world because He knew all the evil choices His creatures would make as a consequence and He did not want to cause evil things to happen?
Fascinating stuff. Total respect to Dr. White and Dr. Brown for their exegesis and the manner in which they debate.
The issue I keep coming back to is this:
Why am I a believer and my wife isn’t?
Is it because of some better quality inherent in me that’s lacking in her or is it down to God’s choice?
These seem to be the only 2 options as far as I can see.
GOD's CHOICE
Yes, Jesus died for those who *believe*, but that doesn't explain how one comes about *believing*. Luke 24:45 "Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures." Luke 24:31 "Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him." NASB Clearly, not even those who *walked* with Him on the Earth could see who He was, or understand the Scriptures, unless He opened their eyes and their minds so they could see, and believe. It is more than obvious, if you read the whole Book in full context and not take things out of context. The best answers to the questions is Scripture itself.
To believe that God looked down through time to see who would choose Christ and then God elected people on that basis,would turn the scriptures on their head,to say : He loved us because we loved Him first.
If Christ came to save the whole world not one will be lost
I can not say that I chose God, I did not and cannot. Even now as a believer.
So many people believe they can stop sinning on their own e.g. pornography, having a perfect marriage, emotions, wicked thoughts, wicked hearts by accountability and seeker friendly messages.
I believe being sanctified can only happen by God drawing me near to Him and that’s how I sin less, not by my own merit or self righteous efforts.
I couldn’t believe by myself, God’s Mercy spared me and introduced me to His Grace, even now as a sinful man I can’t choose God or be Holy and sanctified of my own accord.
I remember a lead pastor(baptist) use to tell us his mentees, when we think about pornography go on a run, I slowly seen that even then I thought about sex after the run.
But he never told us to deal with our sin by running to Christ and His Word.
I say this to say my own efforts do nothing if it’s not God’s purpose, yes I must be obedient but it’s by God’s purposes
There are some things that can't be explained so easily. Does God have sovereign authority? Yes. Is there a level of free will? Yes, but only through Grace, thus receiving the Spirit are works accounted as payment for your debt. The two are not mutually exclusive, and on the other hand not exclusively apart. We know "By grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" Then we see in James 2:20; "faith without works is dead," and again in James 2:24; "by works a man is justified and not by faith only." Faith comes from the Spirit by Grace. And through the Spirit Paul tells us we will do the works guided by the Spirit; Romans 11:5-7; "In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened," again in Romans 4:4; "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due." Finally, in 2 Timothy 1:8-10; "Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,…" I'm not sure why this is not obviously clear?
This debate is great to listen to, hard to watch. The moderator has absolutely the worst fashion I have ever seen and I can't keep cringing. Lord, take me now. Please. Dear God. Please.
was looking for this comment hahaha
I have to say, I’ve been on both parts of this and James’ position seems to be particularly compelling.
“Justification comes by faith”, but who can believe without the atonement and Sanctification and regeneration of the Spirit for that individual first?
Here is absolute proof Calvinism is NOT Biblical: In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."
If we are programmed or determined to make choices that is not free will. I feel that Calvanist fail to recognize that God is outside of space time and there is no yesterday, today, or tomorrow to him. He sees all in an instant and therefor foreknows all the choices we will make but that does not change the fact that we have free choice in making them.
The last subject was very interesting (and important). The question was, does Christ intercede for infidels. Jesus is said to have died for a group, and for that same group he will eternally intercede. If Christ died for all including infidels that will in the future end up in eternal torment, then he will continually intercede for those in eternal torment. Dr. Brown refused to answer to that and at two points tried to change the subject.
It very clearly is a point of inference that Christ died perfectly for those he came to save; for those whom the Father gave to him. He will eternally intercede for the elect. Dr. Brown needs to see that the work of Jesus (as highpriest), does both the sacrifice AND intercession. These two things, CANNOT be separated. :)
+BrinkTheGamer This was the 1st time for me to consider; if Jesus is continually interceding for those that he died for, then this would mean he also is praying for those who are in hell! Superb insight!!
Good points. I personally think that last segment was the most intense!
Yes, very good points indeed. There are many related backup points to the first. One very simple one that comes to mind was when Christ prayed saying I do not pray those, I pray for the ones you gave me. This means that there is an isolated group for whom Christ prays (intercedes), that being the case, that means that there are some for whom he does not pray(intercede). And if there is no interceding for those persons, it means necessarily that he did not die for them.
+BrinkTheGamer Totally agree.
BrinkTheGamer Excellent. Dr. Brown, although sincere, seems to have real blind spot, seeing this point+
Good opportunity to hear both sides with each one's strengths and weaknesses. Done in a winsome manner as well, for which, I am grateful. Too many of these presentations deteriorate into foolish argumentation.
Respectful here, but White’s usual modus operandi is not so
The bible is very clear on this matter and simply understood that Christ died for the whole world
If sin was atoned for the entire world then why the world is still sinning. And why are we enemies of God if we are friends with the world? One only needs to take a look at reality to find answers rooted in reality. And not in imagination or "wish it were that way" thinking.
Jesus said , that he came for the sinners , before the well doers .+++
The elect are sinners before being saved. Now the saved don't love for the sin but for God.
10 minutes in one minute into Dr. Brown speaking, and I already have heard three miss representations of speaking on the translation of world from the gospel of John. There are over 10 different variations of the word world, and their true meaning of people, groups, and most certainly without a shadow of a doubt, one of those is the elect
Excited to see the response, and if Dr. White brings this up because there are many different usages of world in John’s gospel. Quite frankly, you cannot be scholar not know and then go and debate misrepresenting what the word says Jesus didn’t waste a drop of blood in God has an elect people , this is most certainly the story of scripture we do not serve a begging God we serve a perfect God, who can change any heart who creates and demolishes he brings souls to himself to argue that is to argue with scripture, and I will choose to stand with God‘s word God has spoken And I am so grateful for that that we would all just have our own version of God. We need to stand with scripture ,
Biblical Predestination
The Scriptures teach that God, with His eternal wisdom and foreknowledge, has predestined (i.e. predetermined or foreordained) certain things about the salvation of man. But what has He predestined? Some teach that God's predetermination concerning man's salvation is unconditional and selective. That is, God, before He created the world, unconditionally predetermined specifically the individuals whom He would save and those who would be lost. However, the Scriptures teach that God's predestination as to who will be saved is conditional upon each individual's choice to be in His Son Jesus Christ.
There are some grave problems with the teaching that states God has unconditionally predestined certain individuals to be saved and others to be lost. First, if God elected to save one individual and not save another without condition, this would make God a respecter of persons. However, this is what the Scriptures plainly state that God is not. "There is no partiality with God" (Rom. 2:11; also see 1Pet. 1:17).
Second, such teaching denies that God desires the salvation of all men. Yet, Jesus Himself declared, "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him might not perish but have everlasting life" (Jn. 3:16). How could Jesus die for "whosoever" if God, before the foundation of the world, had already determined who would be saved and who would be lost? The apostle Peter states, "God is not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance" (2Pet. 3:9). Paul too says, God "desires all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth" (1Tim. 2:4). God desires the salvation of all men not just a select few.
A third thing that shows such a concept of God predestination to be false is that it makes the preaching of the gospel in vain. God desires all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. Thus, Jesus commanded that the gospel be carried into "all the world" and proclaimed to "every creature" (Mk. 16:15). But why preach to all men if it has been predetermined who will be saved and who will be lost? In fact, why bother to preach at all? If an individual is one whom God has predetermined to be lost, all the preaching in the world couldn't change his condition. On the other hand, if an individual is one whom God has elected to save unconditionally, why preach to him, would not God save him anyway? Christ commanded the gospel to be preached to all because salvation is conditional upon each individual's acceptance or rejection of that gospel.
Finally, this doctrine eliminates man's responsibility. It teaches that one's salvation has nothing to do with his willingness to obey, but is all predetermined by God. Yet, Jesus spoke of those whom He wanted to come to Him but they would not (Lk. 13:34). Coming to Jesus involves willingness on our part, to believe and obey (cf. Mk. 16:16). Our salvation involves responsibilities and conditions that must be met by us.
God's predetermination was not to unconditionally save select individuals and for others to be lost, but rather a predetermination to save the collective or the group of those who would meet certain conditions that He would set forth in the gospel of Christ. A basketball coach may predetermine who is going to be on the team before the first cut is ever made. That doesn't mean that he names the specific individuals that will make the team, but that he sets forth certain conditions. For example, a coach may decide before hand, "All those who will be on the team will: 1) Have a certain grade point average. 2) Be a certain height. 3) Be present at every practice and show second effort, etc." Thus, the coach has predetermined who will be chosen for the team, though he never mentioned anyone specifically by name. In the same way God has predetermined who the chosen are. He chose that the saved would be those who, by their obedience, would choose to be "in Christ" (see, Eph. 1:4-7).
How is it that people come to be in Christ? It is not through a predetermined unconditional election. Paul explains that we come to be in Christ through faith and obedience. "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ" (Gal. 3:26-28). This is what Jesus commanded to be preached to every creature. "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, he that disbelieves shall be condemned" (Mk. 16:16). Salvation is conditional based upon our willingness to obey the commands of Jesus. Are you among those whom God has predetermined to save?
Many errors here. You should bring things up one at a time. For example, when Romans 2 says God shows no partiality, are you familiar with the context? Paul is saying that both Jews and Gentiles will be judged by the same standards, God's righteous standards. It's not saying there's no election, God doesn't choose to show mercy on some and judge others. Look at the context. Never just pull quotes from here and there.
Watch the video again. Do you understand what White is arguing from the book of Hebrews? Read the book. What does it teach about the atonement?
By David Moore
Originally Answered: If God is omnipotent and knows what we will do before he created us, how can we have free will?
A great question. A time-honoured one.
Many of the apparently insoluble paradoxes of the Evangelical worldview are the result of assumptions that are made to accommodate the human perspective. Now, I thoroughly accept that this must occur (how could humans not take the ‘human viewpoint’?) but I offer the thought that just as we are aware that terrestrial navigation methods that dictate vectors on earth (north, south etc.) have no meaning in non-heliocentric space, so we might consider that some humano-centric concepts (such as time) may have no applicability in aspects of theology.
Hence, the problem of predestination (which I would suggest is predicated on our concept of Time) is only a problem under certain conditions. The implications for our experience of free will are not lost on Paul, but he gives a somewhat reductionist response - effectively arguing that ‘since man is not privy to the perspective of God, his objection is is unreasonable’
Romans 9:19-20 NIV
[19] One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will ?” [20] But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this ?’
But this is unsatisfying, so let me invert the problem:
We are upset by Judas’ condemnation because we perceive his actions as being caused by God. What choice did he have? As Paul says, ‘who can resist his will?’. But here is the error: we consider God’s will to be equivalent to our own experience of ‘will’. My will is to type this sentence, thus the sentence is typed.
But causality is not so simple!
Ask any cognitive scientist what that ‘will’ is and they will balk. Quora itself is full of discussions of whether such ‘conscious decision-making’ and mechanical causality is an illusion or not.
Let me put it another way: many Quorans enjoy the concepts of quantum mechanics. We are usually happy to say that quantum systems involve superposition until some observation is applied. We are comfortable in this esoteric, abstract ‘particle in a box’ scenario. But when that box contains a Cat things get harder.
We forget that the ball that we throw to a child (that follows Newtonian mechanics so nicely) is comprised of impossibly large numbers of particles that we simultaneously believe are following the paradoxical laws of the Standard Model. How can we resolve this?
It is as if the behaviour of these particles was predestined when we know that cannot be. As if the ball ‘knew’ what states all its constituent particles would need to be in for it to follow the arc predicted by a model of matter we no longer consider accurate.
This is true because observations are only valid at certain levels. Quantum descriptions make as little sense at macroscopic levels as Newtonian ones do at submolecular levels.
Hence the problem is ‘the Idea of North’. If we apply terrestrial concepts to the greater reality inhabited by God we get strange and impossible results - but just before I lose your interest consider one more fundamental example: geometry. We are happy to define ‘points’ and ‘lines’ in Euclidian geometry, and the concepts of ‘parallel’ and ‘perpendicular’ seem clear.
But we both know the same concepts can appear utterly contradictory in non-euclidean space:
Similarly, Judas fulfills his predestined role and he is responsible for his actions. Yes, it's confusing, but it's the way things are. Theology did not make it this way. God did.
Humans are not that smart, really!
We can have free will because God is Sovereign, do nottry to find answer on your own, or answer the question through calvin. Just simplt trust what the word says.
Hi Amira, I believe in particular redemption, I believe in divine election, I believe in predestination, because these are foundational doctrines of biblical Christianity. I believe that God chooses in salvation and he made his choice before the world was made. I believe in reprobation. I believe that God will save every soul that he intends to save. I believe that God has no intention of saving a lot of people. The reason that I know that I am not a vessel of wrath is because I know that God has begun a good work in me. I also love the brethren.
do you really believe that god played duck duck damn with people on earth?
You believe in Calvin not Christ.
@@vrz2000 Lolol wow
@@myraride9563 I believe what the Bible teaches
@@dustinnyblom7835 It was a genuine question, do you really think this all loving god of christianity damned people before they were born
Christ died for all sinners (that's all of us) but the gift of salvation which is the cleansing shed blood of our Savior Jesus Christ is only available to those who hear the gospel, believe, repent of their sins and put their faith in Jesus Christ alone as their Lord and Savior.
Leviticus 16:17 " When he goes in to make atonement in the holy place, no one shall be in the tent of meeting until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself and for his household and for all the assembly of Israel.
Assembly=noun
a GROUP of people GATHERED together in one place for a common purpose.
I must admit that James white is one of the very best at laying down false dichotomies and misdirection as well that I've ever seen..
You are one of the greatest practitioners of libel I have seen on the internet.
@douglasmcnay644 thanks ! But prove it slanderer . James White strawman everyone that disagrees with him and it takes an ideologue not to recognize this . Prove your slander against me or apologize or admit you're just a kid that runs your mouth without knowing what your talking about .
One thing I noticed is James White is getting uncomfortable and not completely addressing the issues brought by Jesus death for all. It's our choice for all who believe. Good wants everyone to believe. If it's forced, it's not love.
Literally the most famous quote from the Bible: For so God loved the WORLD...
James White and all Calvinists: Let me stop you right there.
Calvinism has to be the most lazy version of christianity ever. God does everything, we don't have to do nothing. No need to accept God through faith, no reason to get baptised and repent, no reason to evangelize. God will literally do everything for you, and if he doesn't, well, he just didn't decree it. Bible for the rich, lazy, proud people who would rather just be the chosen race than take the responsibility for their actions.
Maybe some things to consider!
1 Timothy 2:3-6
“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,”
It addresses the extent of the atonement in 1 Tim 2:6 “…who gave Himself a ransom for all…”
it seems with reasonable cohesiveness and consistency with other scripture such as John 1:29
“Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!”
I think there are complexities of the mechanics we can’t fully comprehend,
how could we comprehend the fullness of understanding but if something is unsure Trust in the Lord always that he is good and the most righteous, pray for wisdom.
May Christ Jesus be with you all :)
Alex Morton Why there are so many people in hell ? Can’t God save them ?
@@SamitoJesus1
People do not come because they are in denial about their wickedness.
…19 And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and DOES NOT COME into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
(John 3:19-20)
Everything that happens in history has been decreed/Predestined before the world was created see Eph 1:11, Proverbs 16:33 and Amos 3:6. And yes even when terrible things happen, I know it's hard for some people to accept but look what happened when David sinned against God and one of Davids punishments was that God told him that he was going to use Davids own son to shame his Father by Absalom Absalom doing something immoral to his Fathers concubines in front of all of Israel, see 2 Samuel 12:11-12 God said "Thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and under the sun." Notice how God said "I WILL DO THIS THING."That was fulfilled in 2 Samuel 16:21-22. Jesus did not die for every single person ever and Jesus didn't die to make people savable. He died to save his elect. In John 17:9 Jesus said that he does not pray for the world. The word world is used in different contexts, in that context he's talking about the non elect. In John 3:16 world means that he purchased people from every tribe, tongue and nation Rev 5:9 and for the children of God scattered abroad John 11:52. Some have been "long beforehand marked out for condemnation" Jude 4 and "appointed to doom." 1 Peter 2:8. About Pharaoh God said “For this VERY PURPOSE I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires." Rom 9:17-18. Jesus said "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him." Matthew 11:25-27. So, 2 Pet 3:9 the "not willing that any should perish" if you read that letter in context, 2 Pet 1:1 says "To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours." As far as salvation for all men verses, Paul was refuting the false notion of his time that God was only desiring to save just the Jews and 1 Tim 2:2 says to pray "for kings and all who are in authority" because as humans WE DON'T KNOW WHO THE ELECT ARE SO WE PRAY FOR EVERYONE! That's what it means in verse 4 by saying "all men." Amos 3:2 God said "of all the nations of the earth I have only known you." For centuries God passed over the majority of humankind because this verse isn't about knowledge it's about relationship. And it isn't because God foresaw Israel was more righteous then the other nations because sometimes Israel was more sinful then the pagan nations see 2 Kings 21:9. Only those who were predestined to be saved will be see Acts 13:48, Ephesians 1:4-5, Eph 1:11, Romans 9:11-23, John 6:37. 1 Samuel 3:14 God said “Therefore I have sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli’s house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever.” That's Limited atonement.
No one will read all you wrote.
Focus: The intent of the atonement was to save any person who believes not this or that particular person who believes: "For God so loved the world...whoever believes".
The Triune God does not need to force himself on man. That's what the Calvinistic God does when he determines for the "elect" that they will serve God. My God is far greater than that-- he gives men free will to choose.
Determining everything that happens in God's universe that he created is not force at all. It's quite easy for him.
Who has such a great view of man that he thinks God would have to force anything? Making everything happened the way he wants it to happen is nothing for him. No force needed.
You get the sense, from the Arminian perspective, that God is somehow obligated to provide salvation for a dead world. So Christ died for dead people then asks the dead to respond? ??? The dead natural man CANNOT respond. He's dead, the Gospel is foolishness to him he receives not the things of God, he can't know them and he's spiritually discerned. I Cor. 2;14. Considering that why is ANYONE in heaven or hell? Has to be God's sovereign choice! Ps 115:3; Isa. 46:10
that's not what Dr.Brown said...he stated emphatically that Christ's death was in behalf of the entire world..."Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"...in other words...whether it's prior to or after the CROSS..the basis of having faith was Jesus dying for the world...The Law and Prophets teached spiritual truths of the Messiah...the Redeemer to come...
Having that said...some rejected the message of salvation, prior to or after the cross, and as a result are now in hell..these people Jesus no longer intercedes for because their faith are sealed...but for the living...believers or unbelievers..all have access to Christ for repentance and intercession...
Nayali Figueredo
My good brother, I didn't say Dr. Brown said that. But "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" i assume you're quoting Rev. 13:8? Not sure but if... clearly implicated in the passage is both preordination and predestination.The people slain were those who's names were NOT written in the Lamb's book from/before the foundation of.... Says nothing of "for" the world. But what I did say was you get the "sense" that at the heart of Arminianism is the idea of "fairness". That in order for God to be "fair" salvation has to be generalized and not specific. I may be wrong but the sense I get. Aside from that I'm saying by very nature of God's sovereignty and man's inability to respond outside the enabling of the Spirit it has to be limited/specific and not general. Having said that we seem to forget that the bible is not to kind about the ability of the natural man. Man is in judgement because he is in Adam. "By nature children of wrath" Eph 2:3. I'm sure your familiar with those many passages...and keeping that in mind the fact that are in heaven and hell it has to be God sovereign choice of who's saved or not. Because...The world can't respond! God Bless you my brother!
where is this thing where u gotta humble yourself for atonement in the OT? that michael brown said
Shouldn’t be any debate Jesus died for all, these are pointless debates.
Here is absolute Biblical proof that God does NOT cause or determine everything; In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."
1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
It is so clear! It cannot be stated any clearer than that! Salvation is available to each and every human being who trusts in Christ because Christ died for the sins of the whole world!
Brown confuses the old and new covenants. Since the beginning God has saved people through the new covenant alone. While this covenant was not established until Christ shed his blood, the blessings achieved, however, have a retrospective efficacy. Those who lived prior to the first advent were saved by believing the promise.
does Jesus intercede to the Father for the unbeliever? nope, but for His bride
No believers are assigned the role of praying for unbelievers. Paul said:
2 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for ALL men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.(1 Timothy 2:1)
We can see in verse 4 that we are not just to pray for people in strategic positions but that these prayers are the means whereby God reaches out to ALL people with the message of salvation.
I wonder if there is such a thing as a calvinist that believes he or she has been predestined for hell?
Sad to see Dr. White holding this unscriptual position. If salvation is based on love it cannot and will not be forced on anyone. Rather it is sincerely offered and man choose to freely accept or reject it. This is salvation 101😔. 🙏📖⏳♨️
Does God love all people in the world without exemption? Romans 9:13 Just as it is written, God said, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I Hated." Does the love of God failed to saved those who are in Hell? Is His WILL powerless to redeem sinners from their sins? Is sinner's DECISION higher and greater than the HOLY GOD?
With respect to Jacob/Esau God was talking about national not personal. This had nothing to do with salvation, it was all about one nation serving the other.
skymiles18
Meant national service n He is referring to preference.
Christ came to save the people that the father gave him
God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them. There is a verse in which the world is the elect. Only the elect do not have their trespasses imputed unto them.
Yet Jesus said he was not praying for the whole world but those whom his Father had given him (Jn 17).
As an atheist, I do enjoy watching such debates. Both sides have their points and backed by scripture.
Debates like this will continue without an end. This is very confusing to believers trying to pick the right (if there is one) side.
Both refer and rely on scripture but it's obvious there is no clear outcome to the question.
God may be the author of confusion it seems.
Lolol no it’s people not willing to submit to scripture
Q. Is forgiveness actuated BEFORE or AFTER faith? Both sides agree that God saves ALL -everyone who DOES believe. The issue then becomes HOW do they believe, who do so? Acts 18:27 answers that question directly "And when Apollos came, he was of great help to those who BY grace (or through grace) believed". This does NOT say "Who by CHOICE believed", but who BY grace believed. As for whether God/Jesus forgives PRIOR to faith and or repentance expressed or evidenced, the answer is clearly, YES they can, and have! A paralytic was brought to Jesus and Jesus, apart from ANY expression of repentance or faith, looked at that man and said "Your sins ARE (not 'can be') FORGIVEN" (Mk 2:5). Jesus looked at the woman dragged into the street caught in the very act of adultery, and prior to ANY expression of faith in Him said "Neither do I condemn you" (Jn 8:11). GRACE came in forgiveness, faith followed!
I disagree with White that if all were saved we wouldn't see God's wrath. What then is Jesus's sacrifice? Did Jesus just bare the Father's discontent? His displeasure? His annoyance? No, Jesus bore the full wrath of the Father. So even if every single person was saved, we would still perfectly see God's wrath as it was poured out on Jesus
Obinna Umelo sent me a response to my question. I don't see it here, but wanted to reply. You said that "The answer is no. Those that reject their a priori knowledge of God do not go to heaven." (that was only a part of his answer) So are you saying by this that they receive faith for what they do know and this is sufficient for heaven? I have always understood that there must be faith in Christ, His death and resurrection. I understand that you are saying that the debt is fully paid and that faith is received by or given to those for whom it is paid. I just wanted to be clear that it is faith in Christ and not simply faith in God in general.
I am saying people receive faith for what they do implicitly know but are naturally resistant towards because of their inherent sinful inclination. OT Jews had special revelation but they did not have explicit revelation of Christ, His death and resurrection. However they had natural revelation along with every other person that has never heard the gospel. I think natural knowledge is an implicit recognition of ones need for Christ.
This a priori natural knowledge includes the knowledge of God, His perfection and the fact that we are sinners in need of a savior. On top of this natural knowledge the Jews had more specific details and the law to obey and faith in this concealed revelation of Christ was CREDITED as sufficient for heaven.
This is speculation but I think that if God gave someone faith in all the natural revelation they received then that would also be CREDITED as sufficient for heaven. However this might be an unlikely scenario because of our sinfulness.
***** Just making sure I understand. A Native American from way back before missionaries came to the US would be credited as righteous if they had faith in God for what they knew from nature with no knowledge of the Bible or Christ needed whatsoever? Is this what you're saying? This doesn't seem to be Dr. White's view from what I've seen.
***** From my understanding Dr White believes in Forensic Justification and justification through faith. I cannot speak any further on the details of what Dr white believes beyond these things.
I believe salvation of the sinner is always through faith in the work of Christ. However as in the case of OT saints that faith was implicit and not explicit. OT saints ascended to their need for Christ (concealed) but they did not know or understand Christ would die and be resurrected.
So what I am saying is faith in the work of Christ can either be explicit (as for those who hear the gospel) or implicit (as for OT saints).
As for the Native American who has never heard the gospel I believe they are ALMOST certainly lost. The reason why I say almost is because I believe natural revelation contains ones need for Christ (concealed). So even though it could be formally possible, I think this possibility is unlikely because of the rebellion inherent in corrupt human nature.
If anyone who receives natural revelation could ascend to their need for Christ (who is concealed but implicit in the revelation) I believe they will be credited as righteous. This may just be a hypothetical that is never actualised in history.
***** What makes Christianity unique? I think one of the key things is the fact that we are NOT saved through a righteousness of our own but through the righteousness of God credited to us. This belief affirms God's perfect standard that He alone can attain, He receives all the glory and it perfectly humbles men. I believe seeing this truth is the core of Christianity. I question professing Christians that reject this truth.
So Dr Brown, does Christ keep you saved or do you keep yourself saved?
If you don't want to be saved, does Christ keep you saved?
schram21891 If you don't want to be saved, then that would be a witness that Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit has not regenerated your heart. God's grace is efficacious, the heart is brought into new life as Faith is born into the individual. People make all kinds of claims, even salvifically, but as seeds find their place among the rocks and the weeds, only some will ever find that which is good, rich soil.
Both
An answer to the predestination debate is in Ephesians chapter one. This prison epistle, written after the history of the book of acts closes, can be directly applied to all believers since it is written during this age in which we now live. However, Paul uses the word "predestinated" and "chosen" in the first eleven verses and we tend to apply that to ourselves in error.
If you read verses 3-13 very carefully, you will see that there are two groups of people Paul is referring to. This is shown clearly in the pronouns Paul uses. If you would notice, the pronouns "our, us, and we" are used in verses 3-11. These "first person" pronouns are used by Paul to tell the Ephesians what blessings were given to the apostles. If you add yourself into those descriptive pronouns you will come away with a belief that you were also predestinated. However....if you realize that in verse 12, Paul tells us exactly who those pronouns are depicting, you will see that the first group of people referred to is those who "FIRST trusted in Christ".
Then in verse 13 and 14, Paul switches his focus to "you" ( the gentile Ephesians) which now allows us to include ourselves to the subject matter. Remember, the main theme of Ephesians is to show that both Jew and Gentile are heirs TOGETHER. He tells us that "you" ALSO trusted in Christ AFTER you heard the word of truth, the GOSPEL of your salvation. Then He tells us that AFTER we "believed" we were sealed with the Holy Spirit which is the deposit guaranteeing our inheritance. We have all of those "blessings" that the "first to hope in Christ" have but....only when we consciously "believe" in the gospel of Christ.
Two groups folks.....
#1: The first to hope in Christ, the "predestined"
#2: All those who "hear", "believe", and are sealed.
And why should this surprise us?...... The eleven apostles along with Matthias are explicitly shown as "chosen". Paul himself is shown as a "chosen" vessel of Christ ....the apostle to the gentiles.
Jesus said .....Many are "called" and FEW are "chosen". (two groups)
Jesus prayed for the "chosen" AND ALSO all those who would "believe" through their words. (two groups)
In Rom 1:6 Paul calls the Roman believers the "called" NOT the chosen.
God, in His sovereignty, certainly can give you a decision making ability regarding His Son and the Gospel of His Son that does not diminish His sovereignty in any way.
Certain men were "chosen" in times past to bring about a certain historical narrative, to bring about the writing of scripture, and allow the saving actions of Jesus to happen exactly as the Father would have it. Once the ekklessia was established and the scriptures were completed, there is no need for anyone to be "chosen". You must hear the gospel... and "believe" the gospel as Eph 1 shows and God has given you a mind to do so.
I am not going to believe in a system named after a flower!!!!
One is right and one is wrong, ...both can no be right, one has to be wrong...we can straddle the fence
I'm wondering from Dr. White's view, can one, since everything is completed at the cross, be saved and die without putting their faith in Christ and go to heaven? For example a Buddhist or Muslim or even someone with no formal religious belief. Then does this open the door that faith is unnecessary at all or those who never hear the gospel could be saved? I understand that he says faith is given from God, but is it needed in order for one to be certainly elect? I'm referring more to adults. The children and mentally handicapped debate I would rather keep separate for the moment.
Christ interceded for Peter so that he would not fall but return but Christ did not intercede for Judas. Both of them denied Christ outright but Christ interceded only for one.
scriptures says none seeketh after so left to none would be saved
The bottom line is... What is it about dead that you don't understand? Can a dead man resurrect himself to life? The answer is "no" BTW.
He who offends in one point is guilty of breaking the whole law. You CANNOT stand before holy God, unless your sin is paid in full by Christ. So, since He died for us when we were enemies, now being born again, are we less worthy of salvation? Hardly. Jesus saves completely. Salvation is of The Lord
it's a insult to say Christ die for the whole world to save them when many will be lost people insult God when they say such a thing
I loved this debate. Both parties are heaven bound but I believe James brings the better argument. If Jesus died for everybody why would anybody be punished in hell isn’t that double jeopardy? Both Jesus and the unrepentant sinner paid the price for the same sins?
That this is NOT the correct understanding of the atonement is shown by the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant in Matthew 18.
26 Then the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Have patience with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’
27 His master had compassion on him, FORGAVE HIS DEBT, and RELEASED HIM.
(Matthew 18:26-27)
Was this man really forgiven, redeemed and set free from his debt of sin? Jesus said he was.
However, when the servant refused to extend the same grace to another servant the Master judged him.
32 Then the master summoned him and declared, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave all your debt because you begged me.
33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had on you?’
34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should repay all that he owed.
(Matthew 18:32-34)
Having accepted and then refused grace the man was sentenced to torment for a debt he could never pay back. In this parable, we see that after person is FORGIVEN the Lord can subsequently REINSTATE his original debt. This would not be possible in James White's paradigm because that would amount to "double jeopardy" Obviously, there is something wrong with the penal substitution model of the atonement.
Saint Augustine Thomas Aquinas George Whitfield John Calvin Martin Luther John MacArthur R C Sproul are just some of the names that agree with predestination. I used to believe like you did until I studied church history. If that parable trips you up I would suggest reading a commentary from reformed theology.
@@JesusSaviorJudge
First of all, this parable does not "trip me up" I find no contradiction in what it says and my view of the atonement. Therefore, I have no particular need to invent a hermeneutic that "explains" the obvious meaning of the parable. Christ's teaching are the rule by which we measure the conclusions of theologians and their systems - not, vice versa.
I am somewhat puzzled by your remark that studying Church history is what lead you to see the correctness of Reformed Theology when Church history shows clearly that Augustine's views were inconsistent and even contradictory to the FOUR CENTURIES of teaching that preceded him. Surely your study of Church history has shown you that the Ante-Nicene fathers denied both absolute determinism and total human inability.
@@JimiSurvivor I am happy you are happy with your hermeneutics and I am happy with mine. As the great AW Tozer one said they will always be fighting over the sovereignty of God and the volition of man, but ignore it, go into your prayer closet and meet with God. By the way he was a Calvinist.
@@JesusSaviorJudge
Whether we are happy about our hermeneutics is irrelevant. The only hermeneutics that is any good is that which leads to the most accurate interpretation of a text. As to your claim that Tozer's was a Calvinist you are mistaken. Tozer wrote this about his view on the subject:
“Here is my view: God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will [p.145] of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it.”
(A W Tozer, The Knowledge of the Holy, pp.144-145)
....................................................
This is the very opposite of John Calvin who wrote:
"…All are not created on equal terms, but some are PREORDAINED TO ETERNAL LIFE, others to ETERNAL DAMNATION; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death."
(The Institutes of the Christian Religion, Chapter 21: Of The Eternal Election, By Which God Has Predestinated Some To Salvation, And Others To Destruction, Section 5)
Even the chapter title denies that man has the ability to choose either life or death.
....................................................
Tozer also wrote the following:
Where there is no freedom of choice there can be neither sin nor righteousness, because it is of the nature of both that they be voluntary. However good an act may be, it is not good if it is imposed from without. The act of imposition destroys the moral content of the act and renders it null and void.
(AW Tozer: chapter 7, That Incredible Christian)
....................................................
In this, Tozer was in agreement with the early Christian Apologist, Justin Martyr (110-165 AD):
"Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions-whatever they may be....For neither would a man be worthy of reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good, but was merely created for that end. Likewise, if a man were evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not evil of himself, being unable to do anything else than what he was made for."
(First Apology, chapter 43)
Michael Brown. God knows before a persons born what the outcome of their life will be. A person who God knows will never believe is destined for hell irreversibly. Even in your false doctrine you cannot escape the absolute sovereign choice of God in salvation. In your false. View, God gives one specific group of people the good sense to believe, and deprives that virtue to the others. Face it, God chooses. Not man.
First I do believe in God, better than believing the universe made it self from nothing. But there examples of knowing someones choice is only after they known that person or people's choices from observing behavior NOT 1000's of years before they where born. If God has 100% of all foreknowledge that means before day 1 of creation he knew which angels would fall against him and how many people would perish in hell AND he still created everything knowing his creation would have pain and suffering. FREE WILL NOT PREDESTINATION can not be both. Genesis 6:5-6King James Version (KJV)
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
stangtrax
predestination is in the Bible by name. You have to decide what to do about that. It is not invented by someone.
Are you implying Brown could possibly choose to believe differently? Has not God willed and determined him to have the views he has? Why then do you fault God for having Brown believe what he does?
Matthew Miskiewicz
I do not fault God...I fault Michael Brown...
He opposes the very core heart truths of salvation...
Ok Dr. Brown is not saying that God predestined people to hell. Everyone has free will and God commands people to comply with his law because lawlessness leads to destruction. Even though God chooses, but the ones that are chosen are the ones that chose to believe in his Son Jesus Christ.
If Jesus blood is able to save to the utter most, then why didn't it if it truly was for every person in the world? Also people can't accept that we before Christ did not have a truly free will. The Bible says we are a slave to sin so we make choices but are they free choices or choices that are against God because they are slave to sin.
But Dr Brown defending Sid Roth passionately and being silent on wild charismatics made him lose credibility 🤣😂 kiddin' aside, Dr Brown keeps avoiding the question of the "nature" of the atonement of Christ and what did it accomplished. Dr White ended the debate at 47:22 👌🏽
From what I understand Mark 10:40 Jesus said he won't decide who will sit right or left it's for those for whom it was prepared and Matthew 24:36 He does know the time or hour. Some of the things were left to God to decide. And the judgment day will many things to light. 1 Corinthians 4:5 also teaches that we must not judge anything before that final day of God's judgment when things will be put to light. Therefore, our work is to pray and preach to all people to call is for all (AS Jesus himself preached to all) Remember that scriptures are so clear that the message must reach to all the world as a witness, and then the end will come Matthew 24:13, but but election is for those who respect and accept the call that why Jesus spent time to give the parable of the banquet Matthew 22:1-14. This means that we have a choice to believe or not to believe. The other doctrine "Calvinism teach is that God decides for us is not the all truth. It's been misinterpreted. You have a choice to obey or disobey. h scriptures are very clear.
agree
Shakab Clapton
True
Romans 9:18 tells us that He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth.He raised Pharaoh up so that He could show His power. How much plainer can you get ? He has mercy on who He chooses.
Pharaoh was already a non believer. He chose that path, therefore God used him for His glory!
skymiles18 Pharaoh did not choose his on path. Scripture is clear that God determines who will be saved, look at these verses........Romans 8:29 , 1 Peter 1:2 , Ephesians 1:4 , tells us that God chose us before the foundation of the world.
Believers are predestined Romans 8:29-30 , Eph. 1:5, 11 and elected for salvation Romans 9:11, 11:28 , 2 Peter 1:10.
The Sovereignty of God means that He has total control of everything, things past, present and future. God has chosen to save those on whom He has set His love Romans 9:8-13.
We do have free will, where free will comes in is if we choose to obey God after He has Saved us, or do we choose to willfully sin. If we choose to willfully sin and not stop, we could commit " the sin unto death " this is where a saved person continues to sin and God takes them, their physical body. he won't let them live here on earth anymore, but ther salvation is not in question here because once you are saved, you belong to God and nothing will ever snatch you from His hand. You have been born again, you have God's seal upon you. You cannot be unborn. The Holy Spirit promises that once He has taken up residence in you , He will never leave you.
We all have free will. God will not humble your heart only you can humble your heart.
Q. Who does the Father "give" to Jesus? Michael answers saying, "Those who believe" - which is an absolutely circular argument! For "believes" and "comes to" are synonymous terms. Jesus said "All that the Father GIVES Me will COME" (Jn 6:37). Michael, twists this to say "ALL who come, the Father will give". He is completely incorrect here. For IF the Father only "gives" those who believe, rather than as Jesus said they believe because He gives them, then God in truth gives nothing! The person has already given themselves to Christ! So what is God, just a rubber stamp after-the-fact? Arminians OFTEN reword the scripture to make it fit. Acts 13:48 is a parallel to Jn 6:37. It says "...and all who were appointed to eternal life, believed". It does NOT say, as Michael must argue, "All who believed were appointed for eternal life". In Eph 2:8-9- perhaps the greatest exposition of the basis and process of salvation, Paul does NOT mention the word "CHOICE" ( in any of its derivatives). He did not say "For by CHOICE are you saved by grace", NOR did he say, "For grace are you saved through your CHOICE to believe". These are the essence of Arminian error. What Paul DID say was "For by grace are you saved through faith - and THAT not of yourselves, IT is the gift of God. Not of works, lest anyone should boast". The term "choice" is NOT in Eph 2:8-9.
I believe that Christ died for the whole world.
They go to hell because they refuse to accept Him when the Holy Spirit draws them.
Do not bother me anymore.
DougCameraMan Amen brother. What you stated is completely biblical. May God open Charlotte's eyes to His truth.
All that the father give the son shall come to him and he came to save them that the father give him Jesus Christ himself preach elicition
Dr Brown nailed it
comedy
@@chrislasala ?
@@Sanctified57 Dr Brown got pieced up
@@chrislasala 😂
There are some doctrines that Jesus hates (Revelation 2), and says so. We ought not to be so hesitant to do the same! I believe Jesus hates the doctrines of Calvinism, and anyone attempting to spread them cannot be being led by the Spirit of truth as He doesn't spread lies. Forgive them Father...💛
Michael is correct in saying that the people who humble themselves in faith and repentance will receive salvation, but his explanation for why they humble themselves is incorrect imo
People do not know what they have not experienced. Wether they choose to believe in a particular idea, or testimony or not, until they have experienced it for themselves it is relegated to the realm of concept. It should not be surprising then, that People who have never witnessed God's supernatural power, such as through healing or being healed, or heard the audible voice of God, or stood in an open vision, or experienced the presence of God, and felt His love, can only speak about theology. God does not need His ego stroked, He wants real love, and created us with a measure of subjective love, so He would be inspired by the company. If two members of a family go to hell, how will the others be able to rejoice in heaven without a memory erase? Then if God, is even more affectionate, and filled with parental love than resultant beings, would He have to erase His own memory? There are many unanswerable questions in Christian theology. The time will come when these questions, are answered, in God's time. When He sees we can handle coming from mistaken conventions. New wine should be put in new wine skins, when the time comes.
If "No free will to choose" were true then the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgment would be a joke. Think on these things:. how could souls be judged and held responsible if their actions had been predestined without free will? Is that just?
I am not an Arminian. I believe we are dead in sin and cannot choose God. The Holy Spirit must regenerate us. However, God's Word says that Christ died for the ungodly. Who is ungodly? Everyone.
Christ died for the ungodly (Romans 5:6). Upon first serious study of the Bible, there are plenty of instances of seemingly contradictory information--God is sovereign; yet, He commands all people to choose Christ; we are born in sin, helpless against the desires of the flesh, and yet commanded "thou shalt not..."; God is sovereign and chooses His elect, and yet commands us to go and preach the Gospel. We are commanded to repent and yet told that repentance is a gift of God.
God doesn't explain everything to us. But, He commands us to trust Him and believe it and act upon what we say we believe (Prov 3:5-6).
If either men are saying that man is not totally depraved, and can choose God of his own accord, then I believe Scripture contradicts that. However, if either men are saying that God didn't make a Way for every single individual, then I believe Scripture contradicts that as well. God made a Way to Him. Man can and does refuse to take that Way and many will continue on the broad road to hell.
What love is this? If there is no free will/choice of a person, how is it love? Yes, Jesus chooses ALL to be saved, but it's two-way. The individual must accept Jesus from his heart or reject Him. It's sort of like when an employer wants to hire you, in other words they choose you, but you have the right and free choice to accept that job or not. Everyone is able to be saved, but we know this is not how it will be because everyone has their own mind, and will decide for themselves. I do believe Jesus knows who will ultimately be with Him for eternity and who won't because He is all knowing, but that is not the same as predestination.
Wow, Dr. Brown demolished Dr. White in my opinion. The more I listen to these debates on this subject, the Calvinist position appears the weaker. Dr. Brown quoted tons of Scripture, it all made sense and Dr. White appeared overwhelmed and had to keep saying that they needed to stay on the subject of atonement. Dr. Brown then obliged him on the subject and crushed Dr. White (especially the part about the High Priest making intercession for the nation, but it was only activated when a person acted in faith).
Both are false teachers. The MAN Jesus died for all men. He is not God. He died under the law and was a sacrifice for our LEGAL sin debt under the law. God Jesus is a Spirit, who only forgives those who believe they cannot be justified by the law and believe that God raised the man Jesus from the debt and promises mercy and grace through faith. The man Jesus died for THIS world. God Jesus only lives those who are in himself. You don’t get INTO the second Adam (a quickening spirit) until you are born again a new creature in Christ. The children/church/Israel of the flesh ARE NOT the children of God.
God doesn’t love the children of the flesh. You have to be in spiritual Jesus, who is God. The man Jesus is a made creature of the sinful flesh of man (Mary).
Don’t confuse the spiritual offering of eternal life to God with the flesh and blood offering for sinners.
Hebrews 9:22 (KJV)
And 🩸👉🏽almost all things👈🏽 are by the law purged with blood🩸; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
One Offering left: the spiritual offering by God of eternal life to them that believe!
Ephesians 5:2 (KJV)
And walk in love, as 👉🏽Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us 👉🏽an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour👈🏽.
1 Peter 2:5 (KJV)
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up 👉🏽spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 9:14 (KJV)
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who 👉🏽through the eternal Spirit offered himself ⚫️without spot to God⚫️👈🏽, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Jude 1:23 (KJV)
And others save with fear, pulling [them] 👉🏽out of the fire; hating even the garment ⚫️spotted by the flesh⚫️👈🏽.
1 Corinthians 15:50 (KJV)
Now this I say, brethren, that ⚫️flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God⚫️; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Zechariah 13:9 (KJV)
And 🔥I will bring the third part through the , and will refine them🔥 as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It [is] my people: and they shall say, The LORD [is] my God.
Acts 7:59 (KJV)
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and 👉🏽saying, Lord Jesus, 🔥receive my spirit.🔥
1 Corinthians 15:50 (KJV)
Now this I say, brethren, that 🩸flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God🩸; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Romans 8:8 (KJV)
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Hebrews 12:9 (KJV)
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the 🔥Father of spirits🔥, and live?
Trinity destroyed along with carnal Zionism and works damnation.
All men are called to believe the gospel. Those who are born again new spiritual children in God himself are called home to their kingdom in heaven, as sons of God.
You MUST be born again.
John 4:24 (KJV)
God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
Romans 8:30 (KJV)
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and 💎whom he ⚖️justified⚖️, them he also glorified💎.
ARE WE JUSTIFIED IN THE FLESH? No
2 Corinthians 4:11 (KJV)
For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
Galatians 5:19 (KJV)
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
1 Timothy 3:16 (KJV)
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: 🔥God was manifest in the flesh, ⚖️justified in the Spirit⚖️🔥, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Romans 8:30 (KJV)
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and🔥 ⚖️whom he justified, them he also glorified⚖️.🔥
Summary: God is a Spirit, Jesus, the Father of spirits, found in his bride (new Jerusalem)-Rev 21:9-10, Rev 22:17, Gal 4:26 KJV
All children of the flesh…
Romans 1:28-32 (KJV) 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
All spiritual children of God, sheep found in God and the true Israel of God, the holy church
Romans 8:10 (KJV)
And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
John 4:24 (KJV)
God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
@15:11 James white
1 Peter 1:21 (KJV)
Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
34:10 unborn