I really agree with pretty much all you say. I just wanted to add a few bits. the Royal Amrouries first jousted with no shields at all, and i made a point of getting shields back there. there was a real counter-movement against shields because early blasa jousting wanted to distinguish between 'string mail jousting' and 'real' jousting (which was still using balsa anyway... so 'real' was RAAAAATHer relative) anyway, we used no shields and nearly all sallets and bevors for years. Well over a decade, in fact. literally tens of thousands of passes. This caused very little issues. Even though headshots were inirtially not encouraged, they were common, and i myself was hit in the face in a sallet and bevors well over 300 times. This includes a hit to the vision slit (of a particularly ratty sallet) and a removal of a helmet (famous picture) not a single one of those came between my sallet and my bevors. in fact, i still don't know of one occasion of that. now this being said, the safety of such an arrangement is very dependent on the fit of the bevors. Some bevors are not at all meant for jousting, and can be on the low side. this is a risky thing to use. If you choose an appropriate extant example and make it fit there is a lot of overlap and there is essentially no chance of anything going in between. there are also examples historically of bevors on the outside of sallet visors like int he triumpf of maximilian, and way way back Rod Walker already had one reproduced and rode with it. but even with sort of dodgy bevors, just having the chinstrap over the bovors (which is historical) was a well known way to keep it from gapping and was used WIDELY from before 1996 until the present day. the banning of sallets in balsa jousting is ignoring the inherent potential for very very narrow vision slits in sallets which means they are the very safest helmets we have. the very worst accidents in jousting in the modern era have all been vision slit related and all due to vision slits being too large relative to the weapon projected (often due to jaw boning of vision slits) Even if you would get hit between the vision slit, there is essentially no inroad to the eyesocket from there. you might hurt your face, but you will not die. Again, this is rather hypothetical, as this seems to be extremely unlikely due to the huge sample size of facehits on sallets.
I didn't know that about the lack of shields at the armouries. I think the famous photo you mentioned is disproportionately responsible for the poor reputation of the safety of sallets. A photo is worth a thousand words, and sometimes the words are wrong.
@@ZacharyEvans specific people chose to make the sallet outlawed at some events. remarkably few people, and those people were not exactly experts of armour design. Fortunately their vooices are becoming less loud again, as people should not at all listen to them for jousting advice. the sallet coming off my head did not at any point endanger my face and since then a close sallet has been ripped off Steve Hemphills head balsajousting, but even in historical solids i nearly lost a frogmouth. point being all those helmets can come off your head, and as was known in the period the helmet coming off can actually be a safety feature.
@@chrispaling426 yes and where there is a way out (to see) there is a way in so managing risks reasonably and not hysterically is the main thing we need to do. this is why i am very happy with this video pointing out some of the main points on this subject
"narrow vision slits in sallets which means they are the very safest helmets we have." I have zero jousting experience but I guess I always assumed the late-style heavy frogmouths were the safest. Are frogmouths safer for the neck but more dangerous for the eyes because of the bigger ocularium? Is there a trade-off there or are sallets really the safest jousting helmet? Also what's stopping an armet from having a vision slit as narrow as a sallet's?
Salad and bevor where sometimes fixed together (later to evolve into closed helmets) there is one in the Wallace collection from the latter quarter of the 15century
Yes, there are lots of different configurations. Obviously the minute you attach the bevor you reduce the versatility of the helmet, but it can increase the protection in some ways.
Hi Zac, loving the videos, very informative. Just a quick question about the ball on top of the sallet or armet, is it a plume holder or something else? P. S found your channel via The Matt Easton video 👍😉
I have a question: what is the purpose of the notch in the shields? It looks as though it’s to rest a lance in, though I’ve never seen it used as such. At 5:46 it almost looks like it’s there to peek out of!
Yes, it's to rest the lance in. The example that I show isn't in the right place for that: that particular shield should be worn lower. If you were to wear a shield as high as I show there, the notch would be located further down the side.
not so much 'rest' the lip on the side protects you hand from the lances slipping down and hitting your hand, in place of a vamplate. using an Arrêt and a bouche at the same time is kinda tricky, but you can still get it in there and have a levée (gradual lowering of the lance to the target) There is a bit of a trick to moving the shield forward as you engage the graper on the arrêt and then find the bouche with the lance, where the shield is in front of your gauntlet. It took me some experience to be able to do it relyably in runs on the quitain, There is one massive advantage, though, the lance-fist supports the shield, so it doesn't smack into your face when you get hit hard in the shield. this is something you can also do with heaters, where you couch the lance and hold your fist behind the edge of the shield, this means the shield is very securely held and can take a massive beating.
You don’t need your own horse. Historic Equitation, Destrier, Atkinson’s Action Horses, Knights of Middle England, Centre For Horseback Combat, SteamHorse depending on where you live all of these offer lessons
I'm just starting and I am in the States they tend to use bigger horses here a clydesdales Shires and percheronWhere are met Armet safer choice for me?
The construction is more important than the actual style of helmet. It's easy for a bad reproduction or wrong style to be unsafe. For example, some Armets from the San Romano paintings have much wider ocular than you would want to wear. There's an awful lot to think about and it's a lot more complicated than I can cover here. I will do another video about some things to think about.
We really needed this kind of content on the net, thanks for sharing your experience! Cheers
I really agree with pretty much all you say.
I just wanted to add a few bits.
the Royal Amrouries first jousted with no shields at all, and i made a point of getting shields back there. there was a real counter-movement against shields because early blasa jousting wanted to distinguish between 'string mail jousting' and 'real' jousting (which was still using balsa anyway... so 'real' was RAAAAATHer relative)
anyway, we used no shields and nearly all sallets and bevors for years. Well over a decade, in fact. literally tens of thousands of passes. This caused very little issues. Even though headshots were inirtially not encouraged, they were common, and i myself was hit in the face in a sallet and bevors well over 300 times. This includes a hit to the vision slit (of a particularly ratty sallet) and a removal of a helmet (famous picture)
not a single one of those came between my sallet and my bevors.
in fact, i still don't know of one occasion of that.
now this being said, the safety of such an arrangement is very dependent on the fit of the bevors. Some bevors are not at all meant for jousting, and can be on the low side. this is a risky thing to use. If you choose an appropriate extant example and make it fit there is a lot of overlap and there is essentially no chance of anything going in between.
there are also examples historically of bevors on the outside of sallet visors like int he triumpf of maximilian, and way way back Rod Walker already had one reproduced and rode with it.
but even with sort of dodgy bevors, just having the chinstrap over the bovors (which is historical) was a well known way to keep it from gapping and was used WIDELY from before 1996 until the present day.
the banning of sallets in balsa jousting is ignoring the inherent potential for very very narrow vision slits in sallets which means they are the very safest helmets we have.
the very worst accidents in jousting in the modern era have all been vision slit related and all due to vision slits being too large relative to the weapon projected (often due to jaw boning of vision slits)
Even if you would get hit between the vision slit, there is essentially no inroad to the eyesocket from there. you might hurt your face, but you will not die.
Again, this is rather hypothetical, as this seems to be extremely unlikely due to the huge sample size of facehits on sallets.
I didn't know that about the lack of shields at the armouries.
I think the famous photo you mentioned is disproportionately responsible for the poor reputation of the safety of sallets. A photo is worth a thousand words, and sometimes the words are wrong.
@@ZacharyEvans specific people chose to make the sallet outlawed at some events. remarkably few people, and those people were not exactly experts of armour design.
Fortunately their vooices are becoming less loud again, as people should not at all listen to them for jousting advice.
the sallet coming off my head did not at any point endanger my face and since then a close sallet has been ripped off Steve Hemphills head balsajousting, but even in historical solids i nearly lost a frogmouth.
point being all those helmets can come off your head, and as was known in the period the helmet coming off can actually be a safety feature.
airnt and when all said & done jousting is a dangerous sport!!
@@chrispaling426 yes and where there is a way out (to see) there is a way in
so managing risks reasonably and not hysterically is the main thing we need to do.
this is why i am very happy with this video pointing out some of the main points on this subject
"narrow vision slits in sallets which means they are the very safest helmets we have." I have zero jousting experience but I guess I always assumed the late-style heavy frogmouths were the safest. Are frogmouths safer for the neck but more dangerous for the eyes because of the bigger ocularium? Is there a trade-off there or are sallets really the safest jousting helmet? Also what's stopping an armet from having a vision slit as narrow as a sallet's?
Salad and bevor where sometimes fixed together (later to evolve into closed helmets) there is one in the Wallace collection from the latter quarter of the 15century
Yes, there are lots of different configurations. Obviously the minute you attach the bevor you reduce the versatility of the helmet, but it can increase the protection in some ways.
Turns out the one i was thinking of is in the MET not the Wallace collection (but tay probably have one as well) sorry
Hi Zac, loving the videos, very informative. Just a quick question about the ball on top of the sallet or armet, is it a plume holder or something else? P. S found your channel via The Matt Easton video 👍😉
Thanks very much.
An orb is a very popular helmet decoration, that can be worn by itself, but also sometimes was adorned with feathers and gems.
@@ZacharyEvans Ah, thanks for the quick response, much appreciated. 👍
I have a question: what is the purpose of the notch in the shields? It looks as though it’s to rest a lance in, though I’ve never seen it used as such. At 5:46 it almost looks like it’s there to peek out of!
Yes, it's to rest the lance in.
The example that I show isn't in the right place for that: that particular shield should be worn lower. If you were to wear a shield as high as I show there, the notch would be located further down the side.
not so much 'rest'
the lip on the side protects you hand from the lances slipping down and hitting your hand, in place of a vamplate.
using an Arrêt and a bouche at the same time is kinda tricky, but you can still get it in there and have a levée (gradual lowering of the lance to the target)
There is a bit of a trick to moving the shield forward as you engage the graper on the arrêt and then find the bouche with the lance, where the shield is in front of your gauntlet.
It took me some experience to be able to do it relyably in runs on the quitain,
There is one massive advantage, though, the lance-fist supports the shield, so it doesn't smack into your face when you get hit hard in the shield.
this is something you can also do with heaters, where you couch the lance and hold your fist behind the edge of the shield, this means the shield is very securely held and can take a massive beating.
Id love to see a video on how to get into re enacting and jousting. Do you need your own horse?
You don’t need your own horse. Historic Equitation, Destrier, Atkinson’s Action Horses, Knights of Middle England, Centre For Horseback Combat, SteamHorse depending on where you live all of these offer lessons
@@chrispaling426 amazing! this may be the most important thing i have ever seen in a youtube comment, probably all my life i have wanted to joust!
A lot of jousting is on hold at the moment. I can definitely make a video about it though.
thoughtheglass go for it!
Here's a video just for you:
ruclips.net/video/1NzCvyv7E_U/видео.html
I'm just starting and I am in the States they tend to use bigger horses here a clydesdales Shires and percheronWhere are met Armet safer choice for me?
The construction is more important than the actual style of helmet. It's easy for a bad reproduction or wrong style to be unsafe. For example, some Armets from the San Romano paintings have much wider ocular than you would want to wear. There's an awful lot to think about and it's a lot more complicated than I can cover here. I will do another video about some things to think about.
@@ZacharyEvans Thank you very much.