It's curious to see all these people with misconceptions around losing by drawing from an empty library. You don't actually lose, you ascend to a higher level of consciousness and lose all interest in the conflict at hand.
Really enjoyed the subject of this video. I often ponder on what I need to cut in order to strengthen synergy and vice versa. Lack of win cons for me is a normality, but as I grow as a player I come to realise that having more creatures is often the key because at the very least dealing combat damage can lead to winning.
Nah creatures are weak just slot in every alt wincon in the colours and lich effects. Mostly joking but got into aggro for the first time since I started playing I avoided aggro for so long because I was traumatized by elfball and didn't want to do the same thing to other players now I've started playing aggro decks with weird combat shenanigans or just strange tribal decks .
I've played rielle as my main deck since she came out I think that having enough wincons is not as much of a problem as having recursion and selective looting effects vs actual wheels. I've found that she is reliable enough at digging that you only really need to run like the 4 best wincons (glinthorn buccaneer type effects) but you want as much effective graveyard recursion as you can get. Selective discard effects (esp ones that say discard any number of cards) are also premium over wheels because you can hold a key card and discard everything else. I've never really felt like I had too many looting effects.
@Dana. I had a copy of Smothering Tithe that I got from a pack, but all of my white decks were budget, so it made no sense to run it. I can definitely feel how you felt with the Yawg's Will
I might have issue in my Slimefoot similar to one mentioned about Breya and Talrand: too much support, not enough theme. I've few Blood Artist-style permaments. I have few graveyard recursion cards (for situations where they kill my saproling themed cards). Ramp spells. But only few actual saproling cards. One I like the most is Tendershoot Dryad. Utopia Mycon is second in line. Third is Mycoloth, followed by Necrogenesis. Beyond that I don't have great saproling cards... It's more of an aristocrats style deck than saproling one.
Surge to victory is a BOMB in Wort the Raidmother. Its already a deck that makes a fairly decent sized army of tokens. And then copying it to make a billion copies of Brass’ bounty or even some storm card like Chatter storm or empty the warrens and go crazy
How about adding Ral, Storm Conduit in that Kedis+Kraum deck? I've got a pretty similar Kedis+Ishai deck (which is a pretty similar shell, with combat tricks and copy spells), but I noticed that Ral acts both as a fork spell and as an alternative win condition if I end up with too many fork spells in my hand.
Jhoira had this issue for me, there were soooo many instants and sorceries I wanted to play that it started pushing out artifacts which gummed up the deck
Ahh thats why my enchantres deck is doing that well. Cause my ramp, my draw, my removals, my winoptions and my creatures are mostly based on enchantments. Btw a part of the "creatures" are just landfall enchantments and works cause my ramps are mostly play more lands.... Well the only thing left are enchantments that let me draw whenever i play a land, i gues i cant have everything xD
I am scribbling on a beast tribal deck, and I had 10-12 cards that let me play creatures directly from the library. Removed half of those to make space for mana ramp instead.
I oversaturated my Meren deck in the past with sacrifice outlets and payoffs, but with very little nasty critters of high mana value in the deck... And God its annoying to have 10+ experience counter on her and only being able to ressurect 5-6 cmc creatures while it could go so much better.. Balance is everything!
Surge into victory with any extra combat spell. When I use surge in a deck I plan on taking extra combats anyways. This surge to victory makes it even more scary. Free extra combat?? Sure I will take it
10 board wipes XD Made me go check my removal tribal deck. it ran 10 board wipes alongside all the single target removal. Good times, no one misses that deck.
Copy spells are not only for your own spells. It feels great to copy a Blatant thievery. But early game, it's fine to Twincast/Fork an opponent Cultivate/Circuitous Route.
Man, talking about overreacting to cards, I will frequently kill anything that grants haste because with decks like Samut, Osgir, and Winota I know the next combat might be either the least or the greatest of our worries, either scenario is deadly, and I'm not keen to find out which it is. Frequently it's not nearly that bad, but I cannot help but fear haste; knowing what a nitro shot it is in some of my best and favorite decks.
Im working on a Ghen deck and trying to get the right ratio of enchantments to instants and sorcs. My deck idea is to play out Smothering Tithe, Price of Glory and play wheels to make tons of treasures to win with a Revel in Riches.
Yep. Same with breaking deals. You can be sneaky all you want ("I said I wouldn't destroy your creature; didn't say anything about stealing it" is completely legit) but, if you knowingly lie--about your deck, about your intent to honor a deal--you're done.
I’ve got a spells matter Izzet deck… so much pay off for casting instants and sorceries, buuuuuut… it turns out I have few of them actually in the deck.
Joey talks about a game where there were 10 board wipes. I once had a game where I single-handedly cast 6 board wipes... The deck in question ran 8 at the time xD
0:21 we wouldn't need a froggie war if they'd just print a sultai frog commander... until then my playgroup allowed me to change grolnok's casting cost to 1BUG
Surge to Victory is a bomb tier card. It does soooooo much more people need to play it. You can use it however and it's always value. Be fair and target ramp, be unfair and target a Time Warp. Either way it's pure gold.
Can confirm that decking oneself with an Enchantress deck is a thing. 2 gy shuffler effects and an Aura Shards help with that. Sadly, people get twitchy about the Aura Shards for some reason. 🤷🏻♂️
Surge to victory is unfortunately useless in my brudiclad deck I have creatures artifacts and one sorcery but I'm sure other red + x decks would love it.
For me, I love my Lagomos deck, but it runs soooo many edicts to enable its tutor ability. Often times I'm stuck with an edict or two in my hand but noone has a board because I keep playing so many edicts.... I'm changing that also for the sanity of my play group
Gavi's a great example of this, needing to balance cycling & looting effects with all the payoff support cards. Seems like a constant process of tweaking & fluctuation as new stuff comes out.
Here’s how you win with Prosper: Senseis Divining Top to fix the top of your deck Tutor Harnfell Horn of Bounty Tutor Disciple of the Vault Tutor more damage dealers/ xorn Hope you don’t get countered Love the deck, just unless you’re running SDT, you can’t keep up, and if you do you just win.
I am so guilty of this, my landfall deck has so many landfall payoffs and so much ramp or extra land playing And 42 lands... but is completely screwed if i need removal or protection and to some extent draw. I gotta figure out how to cut some payoffs and enablers in exchange for more deck-veggies Same with my aristocrats deck. So much death trigger payoff, lots of ways to sac for advantage... not enough creature producers
Too many spell copying effects? I would say such is more like an opportunity to sample someone else's deck to augment your strategy, because sometimes your own strategy could run the risk of dragging from time to time, especially if an opponent really wrecks your board. Some ways I deal with wheels and working in a partially blue discard theme, is I run cards like Scroll Rack, Conch Horn, Brainstone, Brainstorm, Dream Cache, Riverwise Augur, and Cavalier of Gales. Not sure how it's going to go with my Karazikar deck (because I have yet to play it), but I'm running a discard theme in order to help with breaking symmetry, so the cards my opponents draw aren't as likely to come back and haunt me later in the game.
Surge to Victory is such a ball busting finisher and a combat matters deck, right after I finish this post I'm going to order as many copies as I can while driving.
I'm struggling with this currently for my Locust God deck. How many wheels is a good amount?! I've only played 2 games with it so far and I've got ~20 wheel effects. So far I'm feeling like that's way too many
Too much of a good thing? Can there be a too much of a good thing secondary theme in your deck where it is not enough to be a main theme but just enough where you have issues with your main theme? Looking at you, sunforger.
i personaly play underworld breach in a couple of decks but, its basicly just to recast 1 card for 2 extra mana. no shinaniganse, just ohh you killed my etali ok i don't have good cards in hand so i guess ill pay 8 mana to get this etali back in my xenagos deck, but yer having seen alot of CEDH i get the being alert of that card since it can go banana's
THIS aspect of the game is never addressed to newer players when talking about a deck building template... i've seen so many newer kind of players fall into this pit
I am so guilty of this, my landfall deck has so many landfall payoffs and so much ramp or extra land playing And 42 lands... but is completely screwed if i need removal or protection and to some extent draw. I gotta figure out how to cut some payoffs and enablers in exchange for more deck-veggies Same with my aristocrats deck. So much death trigger payoff, lots of ways to sac for advantage... not enough creature producers
It's curious to see all these people with misconceptions around losing by drawing from an empty library. You don't actually lose, you ascend to a higher level of consciousness and lose all interest in the conflict at hand.
So you become Jace...? 🤔
THAT's why I play Mill! I am simply helping others reach their fullest potential!
Thanks for still putting up a show even during a holiday week. This made my Friday at work a lot better, I appreciate you guys.
Really enjoyed the subject of this video. I often ponder on what I need to cut in order to strengthen synergy and vice versa. Lack of win cons for me is a normality, but as I grow as a player I come to realise that having more creatures is often the key because at the very least dealing combat damage can lead to winning.
Nah creatures are weak just slot in every alt wincon in the colours and lich effects. Mostly joking but got into aggro for the first time since I started playing I avoided aggro for so long because I was traumatized by elfball and didn't want to do the same thing to other players now I've started playing aggro decks with weird combat shenanigans or just strange tribal decks .
Having just built a deck I call “48 siege rhinos,” I don’t think there is such a thing as “too much of a good thing”
Decklist please 🙏
You built WHAT
Sounds like you have "not enough of a good thing."
Things like this is what makes commander such a great format.
I keep trying to leave a deck list but it keeps failing. Try looking on archidekt for 48 siege rhinos version 2
Dana's Commander deck ideas are on a diabolical level.
I've played rielle as my main deck since she came out I think that having enough wincons is not as much of a problem as having recursion and selective looting effects vs actual wheels. I've found that she is reliable enough at digging that you only really need to run like the 4 best wincons (glinthorn buccaneer type effects) but you want as much effective graveyard recursion as you can get. Selective discard effects (esp ones that say discard any number of cards) are also premium over wheels because you can hold a key card and discard everything else. I've never really felt like I had too many looting effects.
@Dana. I had a copy of Smothering Tithe that I got from a pack, but all of my white decks were budget, so it made no sense to run it. I can definitely feel how you felt with the Yawg's Will
On the opposing side i have a crypt ghast and a cabal stronghold from somewhere and feel dutybound to make a mono black deck to play them
21:30 and that's why I play Alela. Artifacts? Great! Enchantments? Great! Enchantments that support artifacts? Double great!
Artifact/enchantment creatures with flying? Double great!
I might have issue in my Slimefoot similar to one mentioned about Breya and Talrand: too much support, not enough theme. I've few Blood Artist-style permaments. I have few graveyard recursion cards (for situations where they kill my saproling themed cards). Ramp spells. But only few actual saproling cards. One I like the most is Tendershoot Dryad. Utopia Mycon is second in line. Third is Mycoloth, followed by Necrogenesis. Beyond that I don't have great saproling cards... It's more of an aristocrats style deck than saproling one.
Before I listen, mine is draw effects that lose 1 life ajd trigger or creatures dieing (for ex. midnight reaper).
Surge to victory is a BOMB in Wort the Raidmother. Its already a deck that makes a fairly decent sized army of tokens. And then copying it to make a billion copies of Brass’ bounty or even some storm card like Chatter storm or empty the warrens and go crazy
I'm Brazilian and I spent the first 10 minutes laughing from, Dana's dad joke! hahaha
We are off to a great start!
How about adding Ral, Storm Conduit in that Kedis+Kraum deck? I've got a pretty similar Kedis+Ishai deck (which is a pretty similar shell, with combat tricks and copy spells), but I noticed that Ral acts both as a fork spell and as an alternative win condition if I end up with too many fork spells in my hand.
Man-a love the start with dad jokes, they really land with me!
Jhoira had this issue for me, there were soooo many instants and sorceries I wanted to play that it started pushing out artifacts which gummed up the deck
copy spells can be used reactively/opportunistically on your opponents' ramp or removal spells...?
I was goldfishing my Brudiclad deck the moment Matt started talking about Surge to Victory, and had Surge in my hand. Made me grin.
Ahh thats why my enchantres deck is doing that well. Cause my ramp, my draw, my removals, my winoptions and my creatures are mostly based on enchantments. Btw a part of the "creatures" are just landfall enchantments and works cause my ramps are mostly play more lands.... Well the only thing left are enchantments that let me draw whenever i play a land, i gues i cant have everything xD
I am scribbling on a beast tribal deck, and I had 10-12 cards that let me play creatures directly from the library.
Removed half of those to make space for mana ramp instead.
surge to victory + fury of the horde = +7/+0 & infinite combats with any evasion or lack of blockers
I oversaturated my Meren deck in the past with sacrifice outlets and payoffs, but with very little nasty critters of high mana value in the deck... And God its annoying to have 10+ experience counter on her and only being able to ressurect 5-6 cmc creatures while it could go so much better.. Balance is everything!
Surge into victory with any extra combat spell. When I use surge in a deck I plan on taking extra combats anyways. This surge to victory makes it even more scary. Free extra combat?? Sure I will take it
10 board wipes XD Made me go check my removal tribal deck. it ran 10 board wipes alongside all the single target removal. Good times, no one misses that deck.
Copy spells are not only for your own spells. It feels great to copy a Blatant thievery. But early game, it's fine to Twincast/Fork an opponent Cultivate/Circuitous Route.
Man, talking about overreacting to cards, I will frequently kill anything that grants haste because with decks like Samut, Osgir, and Winota I know the next combat might be either the least or the greatest of our worries, either scenario is deadly, and I'm not keen to find out which it is. Frequently it's not nearly that bad, but I cannot help but fear haste; knowing what a nitro shot it is in some of my best and favorite decks.
Im working on a Ghen deck and trying to get the right ratio of enchantments to instants and sorcs. My deck idea is to play out Smothering Tithe, Price of Glory and play wheels to make tons of treasures to win with a Revel in Riches.
"I promise X isn't in the deck" is a rule zero you lose the game if you lie.
Yep. Same with breaking deals. You can be sneaky all you want ("I said I wouldn't destroy your creature; didn't say anything about stealing it" is completely legit) but, if you knowingly lie--about your deck, about your intent to honor a deal--you're done.
I have a vito deck drain and gain with no exquisite blood or vampiric tutor cause when I pulled them I immediately cased them lol
Lying is fine unless you are playing white😁
I’m currently building a Rielle deck and trying to find that balance between looting/rummaging effects, back up Rielles, and Fling effects.
The first EDH deck I put together was a Brimaz deck that evolved into a 17 Board Wipe deck.
I’ve got a spells matter Izzet deck… so much pay off for casting instants and sorceries, buuuuuut… it turns out I have few of them actually in the deck.
Joey talks about a game where there were 10 board wipes.
I once had a game where I single-handedly cast 6 board wipes... The deck in question ran 8 at the time xD
0:21 we wouldn't need a froggie war if they'd just print a sultai frog commander... until then my playgroup allowed me to change grolnok's casting cost to 1BUG
Some people have been rule zeroing grolnok and gitrog as partner commanders
Karazikar hmm? Can’t wait to see what this is about.
i love your content so much, guys.
Surge to Victory is a bomb tier card. It does soooooo much more people need to play it. You can use it however and it's always value. Be fair and target ramp, be unfair and target a Time Warp. Either way it's pure gold.
Speaking of card draw, I'm building Sythis and I'm still tossing and turning on how much enchantress redundancy I actually need.
Can confirm that decking oneself with an Enchantress deck is a thing. 2 gy shuffler effects and an Aura Shards help with that. Sadly, people get twitchy about the Aura Shards for some reason. 🤷🏻♂️
Surge to victory is unfortunately useless in my brudiclad deck I have creatures artifacts and one sorcery but I'm sure other red + x decks would love it.
I know I'm a bit late to the party, but I feel like this is a big case for why 8x8 deckbuilding can be so important
You could put in kokusho the evening star thats a good life gain card, or you could even put lifelink into the deck
For me, I love my Lagomos deck, but it runs soooo many edicts to enable its tutor ability. Often times I'm stuck with an edict or two in my hand but noone has a board because I keep playing so many edicts.... I'm changing that also for the sanity of my play group
Gavi's a great example of this, needing to balance cycling & looting effects with all the payoff support cards. Seems like a constant process of tweaking & fluctuation as new stuff comes out.
I recently picked up a Phyrexian Dreadnought that really makes me want to build Kresh.
Play Chandra's Ignition and Traumatize in your Riel decks.
Here’s how you win with Prosper:
Senseis Divining Top to fix the top of your deck
Tutor Harnfell Horn of Bounty
Tutor Disciple of the Vault
Tutor more damage dealers/ xorn
Hope you don’t get countered
Love the deck, just unless you’re running SDT, you can’t keep up, and if you do you just win.
I am so guilty of this, my landfall deck has so many landfall payoffs and so much ramp or extra land playing And 42 lands... but is completely screwed if i need removal or protection and to some extent draw.
I gotta figure out how to cut some payoffs and enablers in exchange for more deck-veggies
Same with my aristocrats deck. So much death trigger payoff, lots of ways to sac for advantage... not enough creature producers
Too many spell copying effects? I would say such is more like an opportunity to sample someone else's deck to augment your strategy, because sometimes your own strategy could run the risk of dragging from time to time, especially if an opponent really wrecks your board. Some ways I deal with wheels and working in a partially blue discard theme, is I run cards like Scroll Rack, Conch Horn, Brainstone, Brainstorm, Dream Cache, Riverwise Augur, and Cavalier of Gales. Not sure how it's going to go with my Karazikar deck (because I have yet to play it), but I'm running a discard theme in order to help with breaking symmetry, so the cards my opponents draw aren't as likely to come back and haunt me later in the game.
Please please please share the Karazikar deck list!
:) edhrec.com/articles/edhrecast-our-decks/
Surge to Victory is such a ball busting finisher and a combat matters deck, right after I finish this post I'm going to order as many copies as I can while driving.
I'm struggling with this currently for my Locust God deck. How many wheels is a good amount?! I've only played 2 games with it so far and I've got ~20 wheel effects. So far I'm feeling like that's way too many
How many wheels even exist
@@mark1A100 Well obviously more than 20 lol
Decking out because of Toothy sounds like a fun way to lose.
As a Pir and Toothy player, I have yet to win or (or fairly lose) a game with these commanders. I lose every single game... to myself...
Lovvvvve it 😛💣💚
I want in on the Secret Lair: Pecan Pie! Oversaturated with value fat
Too much of a good thing? Can there be a too much of a good thing secondary theme in your deck where it is not enough to be a main theme but just enough where you have issues with your main theme? Looking at you, sunforger.
I'm never upset when I mill myself with toothy
i personaly play underworld breach in a couple of decks but, its basicly just to recast 1 card for 2 extra mana. no shinaniganse, just ohh you killed my etali ok i don't have good cards in hand so i guess ill pay 8 mana to get this etali back in my xenagos deck, but yer having seen alot of CEDH i get the being alert of that card since it can go banana's
I hate how a gain control and rogue theme would be red black and blue thats far too complicated for me
THIS aspect of the game is never addressed to newer players when talking about a deck building template... i've seen so many newer kind of players fall into this pit
Very much earlier then I am usually
Exquisite blood. Problem solved
whats up with them lips?
Water. Want.
Band. Bant.
That is all.
I think tutors are overly run. Not ramp but actual tutors.
first
Listening to this episode, it sounds like alot of people are just bad at deckbuilding.
I am so guilty of this, my landfall deck has so many landfall payoffs and so much ramp or extra land playing And 42 lands... but is completely screwed if i need removal or protection and to some extent draw.
I gotta figure out how to cut some payoffs and enablers in exchange for more deck-veggies
Same with my aristocrats deck. So much death trigger payoff, lots of ways to sac for advantage... not enough creature producers