Nice diagnosis Ivan. It's truly disturbing to know that out of four dealerships there isn't a single tech capable of making a diagnosis on this. With all of the resources available from the factory it's even more incredible. Way to show em' how it's done Ivan. Thanks!
John Shay Uhm, you don't make a profit replacing $600 PCMs! You make a profit diagnosing the problem efficiently, repairing it right the first time, and minimizing costs involved. The problem is a lack of skilled dealership diagnosticians as Ivan just proved to us. He very clearly pointed that out in case you didn't watch to the end.
This video was very educative. You kept it real and showed the world how are our daily diagnostic work, especially when facing this kind of problems for the first time. It's time and mind consuming and sometimes you just want to set the darn vehicle on fire, but then, persistence and patience pays off. This video also demonstrates that you have no business solving misfires without a scope; just a simple cam/crank correlation test revealed the problem that the stealerships didn't find. Thanks a lot for all your effort, I really appreciate it.
I admire your tenacity on this car. You refused to enter the diagnosis with prejudice and stuck to the plan of "follow the data" and it paid off. I have learned a lot from watching your videos, especially to "tighten up" my own diagnostic procedures.
Definitely one of my favorite videos, Ivan. All of the dealerships missed an opportunity to educate their techs by letting this one go. Unfortunately I have seen too many times where companies are interested in profits over training and experience; which can only help them become more profitable!
Not the fact that is a Chevy it’s more likely the owner not changing oil or other maintenance. Data was showing all other functions were in good order. All brands have problems and it just takes a mechanic that knows to properly troubleshoot. It’s easy to criticize a manufacturer. Thanks again for another outstanding job!
Ivan you are the King in logical thinking. And as allways; throwing parts is the most expensive way to repair a car. I think this case is a matter of stretched chain and one tooth off, can be caused by wear due to forgotten oil changes or so.
At first sight I was leaning toward a dead spot in the TPS, but I knew that should throw a code. Now that I have a scope to play with I am going to start taking cam crank correlation codes on all kinds of stuff that I can play with. I only have 2 channels and an external trigger on my cheap scope though.
I started out on TPS just like you. Wasn't too keen on the dirty TB but damned near shit myself when he said it was a chain jump and then proved it Keeping in mind the ONLY symptom was a fatal stutter just off idle..
Like I said before, your video are watched from beginning to end. This was a great case study with a logical (back up with data) ending. I really enjoy these Ivan. Thanks for spending the extra time to post videos.
Yet another excellent video. As a software developer its obvious to me that GM has attempted to save money on their development team, top developers are expensive but they think of more conditions and situations. Like many attempts to save money, they end up wasting far more. If the chain is off it should trigger a cam correlation fault code.
As a former gm tech I can tell you based on gm service info, unless its sets the timing codes they arent doing anything with the chains. There is nothing in service info about using a scope to check cam/crank correlation. Good find man.
John Shay if people changed their oil every 3000 miles this probably wouldnt be as big of a problem. Gm's oil life system is either the smartest or dumbest thing they ever did depending how you look at it. They basically made the cars disposable after the warranty is up. People will just keep buying new cars rather than spend tons of money to tear the engine down.
As a current GM tech I would have to disagree with this statement. I replace chains constantly on 2.4L LAF, LAP, LE8, LEA, LUK with or without correlation codes. These engines have special policies as well as have issues with oil consumption.
Did you or anyone try driving the vehicle to see if the correlation codes would set? I get that if the timing is off it should set right away, but that is not always the case.
How is it that the dealer guys didn't think that it could be a timing issue? Also, goes to show that sometimes you have to spend the time to look for these types of problems. Not all techs want to spend that time. Great job Ivan.
The 2.4L equinox is well know for stretched timing chains... and busted chain guides. It's probably burning oil too. Check that PCV too, it's probably plugged up.
Really enjoyed the case study. I see that precisely syncing the pressure transducer(s) to sensors' signals on scope is a modern solution that cannot be duplicated with old techniques. Time to invest in a pressure transducer. It can open up a whole new dimension to test driving -- possibilities are endless.
Yo Ivan! Fantastic find man! Email me the in cyl waveforms can you? I would like to take a look at them. Did you reanalyze them after knowing the issue to see if you could see the valve timing error on them?
Yea that would be neat to analyze especially if you have the intake camshaft profile. I went back & tried to see if anything stuck out knowing that the intake valve timing is retarded @30 degrees and the compression stroke profile is steeper but w/o degree margins it's hard to tell so I'd be curious if Ivan or you see anything else. It would be neat to see the pressure waveform after the repair. This was a fantastic diagnosis by Ivan!!
Hey Eric, better yet I can swing by sometime and we can analyze these waveforms together! Also, I do want to get the XL-7 Krowned this fall; what location did you take your Tundra to?
Great find. One suggestion. You could have looked at Load, Calculated Load or preformed a V.E. test and found a breathing issue with this vehicle without all the work you did. Remember to always verify the basics on any performance issue first. Still a great find. Good job!
I had something similar to this, ended up changing the vvt solenoids (both) and connectors as per the tsb, fixed it right up. Was expecting to see a compression test to confirm the timing issue, but maybe that would be overkill. Great video, keep em coming
WOW..Ivan.! You never cease to surprise me man... I can see your frustration in that, almost painful to watch you suffer from the smoking thinking wheel. LOL Then the exciting Ivan popped up with the answer. YAY..! And Thank you for not making it into a part 2 episode and leave use hanging in suspense. Keep these good ones coming, enjoy watching as always. Cheers
Can hear the death rattle from the timing chain easily diagnosed by spending 5 min and removing cam cover and inspecting guides and chain slack between cams
A Chevy Equinox with a timing chain issue, no way. LOL Those 2010-12 are known for that & oil consumption issues. Great find Ivan. Surprised it didn't see coelation codes. Not sure why it had high pressure fuel codes.
also looking what gave him direction to go with fuel trims once he seen that in closed loop he knew he had a fueling problem now to see whats causing it nice work ivan enjoyed it thanks
Damn RUclips ... shut my notifications off again! GRRRR! Missed this one ... This was a crazy one! I'd have got mad and never figured it out for days, LOL! Ones like this are SUPER frustrating! Great learning experience for all of us though - thanks for sharing!!
he did prove it was a timing problem the scope waveform pretty much showed that also. anytime there intake cam off timing with GDI injection the high pressure pump is off also causing fuel pressure codes
Lots of younger mechanics (parts changers) never think it through. Ivan, you figured it out. I figured at first that it sounded like a timing problem. I never realized it was that far off. JD
The old 5.7 would set a cam crank relationship code. But I guess this one with v/cam timing won't do it cause it moves around to much. At idle, they should compare cam/ crank. Great find. Nice who dunnit.
When you search a bit on those cars on google ,you can see that there are a lot of timing chain problems,even at very low mileage.... Very interesting video.
That is a great one Ivan very nice. Sometimes the longer it takes the more we learn from it and as long as we do there is no shame in it and sometimes the gut is right.
Ivan, my brain got stormed out.Grateful to sharing your insights. This is the way to go for real deep impact learning experience. BTW, can we not see CMP & CKP timing relations?
very cool ivan. I would have never guessed. dealers do a ton of timing chains on these vehicles. you would have think that they would have caught that.
One would think, but I doubt many dealers / dealer techs have a scope setup and actually use it. All too often they go on trouble codes for ultimate direction, but as we see here when they don't actually set you have to go back to the basics. So many parts thrown at this car by the dealers without any definitive proof. I hope the owner didn't have to pay for those.
Good one Ivan! Nice troubleshoot!!! damm!! Yep yep, leave it up to the dealers to throw the "Parts Cannon" at it that's what they always good for, Anyways.... 👌
Cool video...I have a 2011 buick regal with 2.4 and same symptoms exactly,the funny thing is that it was fine one day and the next day the problem started,my timing chain and guides and tensioner have less than 5000 miles on them...this car is on the 3rd engine and second trans,I have been racking my brain for a month wondering what could be happening and now I have a direction to look
Glad you solved it. I was going to suggest checking the cam solenoids as soon as i saw it was an ecotec. My moms ecotec had a similar symptom but thankfully it threw a code for the cam solenoids immediately. Although this equinox the solenoids are probably ok its still an issue with cam timing.
Careful Ivan Real estate is expensive on the island!!! Or perhaps you'll become a roving diagnostician! Nice one bud, fun to listen and watch you think!!!!
Hi Ivan If you can get a check after the repair and check where the injection pulse occurs with the proper timing it would be interesting> My money is on you being correct in your assesment that the injection pulse should be on or very near the intake stroke.
And how did end, two tooth or something else? My opinion is because is GDI mixture is important, (you mentioned that) also problem plus because dirty intake valves.
I just finished doing chains on one of these (the one I worked on was a 2013 Equinox, with 60k miles on it) The one I worked on was setting a code for the intake VVT system performance (not a cam/crank correlation code, and nothing for the exhaust). I checked it with a pressure transducer and it was clearly visible in the compression waveforms. I calculated BOTH cams to be off by about 25* (in cylinder waveforms are not as accurate for exact valve opening/closing so it could have been 30). The chain was stretched to the point of the tensioner being about 1/8" from fully extended, after 60k miles! If you ever work on one of these and think about replacing the water pump while you're there, don't. Exhaust and transfer case are both in the way and make it so it takes as long to just replace the water pump as it does to do the chains.
Wow that's some crazy chain stretch in 60k miles. Poor maintenance or poor quality? Thanks for the heads up on the water pump, Kevin. I say if it ain't broke don't touch it haha
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I'd say the stretch was probably a little bit of both. The engine was pretty grungy inside but not quite bad enough to say it needed replaced. The client apparently bought it in 2015 and although they had some sort of aftermarket warranty, they couldn't provide the warranty company with receipts showing regular maintenance...Inside of the engine looked like it had 150+k miles on it.
only half way through the video at the moment - almost wondered if it was a TPS - where the switching breaks over from no throttle to throttle - curious to see what you find.
The intake cam controls and powers the high pressure fuel pump and the fuel pressure to the injectors. Question - Since it takes 2 turns of the crankshaft for one turn of camshafts, is the 30 degree intake retardation figure correctly calculated? Since the cam chain tensioner controls timing chain tightness and prevents the timing chain from jumping timing when the chain is tight enough, I would check the operation of the cam chain tensioner before doing a timing chain job. Finally, the connector on top of the intake cam actuator on your vehicle is grey, a color used only on the 2010 LAF 2.4L engines, after the 2010 model year, the intake and exhaust cam actuators are the same part number and both have black top connectors. Similarly the front cover of the 2010 intake VVT sprocket was grey to match the actuator's color, and thereafter has a black plastic front covet, like the exhaust sprocket. The intake VVT intake cam may also changed from 2010 to later years to accommodate the different mounting point on the VVT sprocket to mate to the intake cam shaft. There was a warranty repair authorized on this generation of 2.4L Equinoxes and Terrains with the 2.4L Ecotec engine, where the factory authorized the removal and replacement of the water pump and balance shaft chain and accessories, which is located behind the cam timing chain, which has to be removed to do the warranty repair. Replacement of the cam timing chain was not authorized, but it had to be removed and replaced, without screwing up the cam timing, and I don't think the dealers were paid enough to do both jobs correctly. On my 2010 Equinox, the dealer techs apparently did not want to go to any extra trouble dealing with the cam timing chain, probably because there was no money in it for them, and they apparently reset the cam timing chain tensioner from the inside of the engine(not an approved method of doing this critical step) and destroyed the delicate internals of my original cam chain tensioner, resulting within a few thousand miles in lowered spring tension and oil pressure to tension the cam chain, thereby resulting in the chain jumping timing on both cams, causing multiple errors. Key among these was a much lower fuel pressure to the injectors, and cam/crank correlation codes, reduced engine power, throttle body and accelerator pedal codes, etc., for a total of about 10 different, seemingly unrelated DTC error codes. Dealer couldn't figure it out, but wanted about $5,700 to $5,800 to shoot the parts cannon at it, with no guarantees, and the lady service writer told me she thought the engine was blown, even though I had driven the car into the dealership, and she said that it had no salvage value at all because of the engine. They had let the battery go flat, so I couldn't test it at the dealership, but after towing it 125 miles to my home, a new battery cranked it up immediately, but fixing the real problems has been a chore. No independent mechanic in my part of the woods will touch one of these things - literally will not physically lay a finger on it - and I learned how to do it on my own, with the help of RUclips, a printed shop manual, an 8,800 page downloadable shop manual, and two on-line services used by mechanics. Using OEM parts helps in getting good results.
good morning here Ivan, I was wondering how is the best way to do cam and crank correlation scope , with solenoids unplug is the normally how you doit? tell me some thing please , awesome video my friend way out my head this diag.
That is awesome how Snap On put the relevant live data and functional tests right on the same screen as the troubleshooter. It would be even better if they allowed you to expand each PID into a graph like you can in the scanner. On a separate note, have you ever thought about putting a non-glare screen protector on your Verus just for better video? There probably isn't one available to directly fit, but cutting down one for something like an iPad Pro would work.
Very good video man, however i couldnt help but notice that during your diagnosis , you forgot to check the quality of the blinker fluid, or for end play in the muffler bearings.. very important on these newer model chevys lol
if you sit back and think about it the cam being off makes sense with the fuel trim being so negative usually thats a sign of timing being off. but sometimes things dont cross your mind in the field til you can sit back and think about it
Negative fuel trims I usually associate with a stuck EGR, which this one did not have....but VVT accomplishes the same goal! A lot of variables on modern engines, where literally everything is adjustable haha
So my question is does the equinox have variable valve timing? The reason I ask is that masking the problem of being off 2 teeth making the problem that much more difficult. So difficult in fact four shops could not find the problem. What I am really asking is do you have a method for quickly checking this without the pico scope? Somehow there must be a quicker method to discover tooth jump on timing. This seems ridiculous.
still at a loss on the no code for cam crank correlation...at our shop we are changing stretched timing chains on chevy Colorados with 15 degrees of offset at startup only...people cannot pass the emission test with check engine light on........software must have some kind of self-zeroing like a throttle position sensor?!?....very very strange...BUT..once again an awesome video!!!!
I wonder why these chains stretch so much? My Mazda MPV with the B2600 SOHC engine has a single-row chain, and at 245k miles the marks still line up dead center and the tensioner is not extended even half way...
I have a 2012 equinox with 95k on it that I'm fighting with now. Starts and drives but randomly, the throttle will become nearly unresponsive, RPM will drop, it will either stall out or come out of it and start driving again. It will sit and idle for as long as you will let it, and its only under load driving that it will hiccup. It has thrown air, fuel, and catalytic codes but I clear them and nothing returns consistently. No codes related to timing or misfires on a particular cylinder, only random/multiple cylinder misfire. I kept thinking the TPS sensor was going bad in the throttle body but the data showed it was working fine. Data showed both fuel pressures were fine but several people insisted that I change the HPFP so I nabbed one dirt cheap off a wrecked equinox but nothing changed. VVT solenoid change and nothing improved. Pulled the valve cover and inspected the timing chain visually and nothing looked concerning, but I didn't inspect the timing marks to see if either of them had jumped a tooth. Tomorrow, I'll try running it with the VVT's unplugged and see if I have similar results.
In the dealer you get paid one hour. if you take three hour to fine the problem you only get paid one hour .and on warranty you get .5 but i got to say you very good at what you do
Great diagnostic effort. Would you confirm that the timing chain/tensioner and/or sprocket/phaser replacement solved the problem you identified? I have an Equinox with mysterious problems, and inquiring minds need to know if the repair was successful. Equinoxes are extraordinarily frustrating to diagnose without shooting the parts cannon at them.
@@bsparks78 no I’m learning to live with it. Neutral at stop lights. That’s the half ass fix for me. I replaced the air intake manifold and throttle body. The oil smell went away but rough idle and stall still present
Could it have something to do with the shifter or the ignition in the steering column? I've those affect vehicles before...IDK just throwing spaghetti at the wall. We are experiencing the exact same issue with a 2016 at my work.
Watching till the end to know the fault then replaying it and looking for clues. Around 31:30 Before you disconnect the cam actuators The exhaust CMP data pid fluctuates a fair bit, however the intake CMP hardly moves. Could this have been a clue while looking at the live data suggesting timing? Great video, Thanks Ivan
I was very surprised thaton both intake and exhaust cams the desired and actual followed each other exactly, even though the timing was confirmed off at the end! Amazing!
Ivan can u put actual Tim of all diagnoses in your videos we c the length like this one is 38:14 but what was the actual time start to finish. Thx grate job.🎉🎉🎉🎉😎
This is why I will stick with late 1990's to mid 2000's cars. The newer cars are simply TOO COMPLEX !!! There is not many things that I can't figure out even without a fancy scan tool. Everything else is elementary--fuel, spark or timing. Congrats on finding the problem that 4 dealers couldn't find.
That is a mega common problem on the ecotec engines we get in the uk, jumping teeth on the cam sprockets, first thing we get is a very consistent rattling in the timing chain then wham bam the chain jumps , or worst still destroying the engine
So, I take it this can be a common problem? My wife loves her 2015 Terrain and wants to hang onto it long term. Does that mean I'll have oil consumption and timing issues to look forward to?
Had a 2012 Focus that made me scratch my head for a minute. It was at this shop for over a month, it was my 1st day and I was replacing their head heavy mechanic and diag tech so it was my first car there. It cranked, wouldn't start. Had fuel, spark, good compression, cam sync read "ok" on data etc... Looked at it closer and saw the bill, the guy replaced the timing cover. I asked where is the tool for locking in the cams, crank and balancer alignment tool and they said "huh?" I knew then that he just slapped it together and those are a crush washer behind the harmonic balancer that keep time. He was like 60 ' off and it was just spraying fuel in on the exhaust stroke because the crank trigger was way back but somehow it did not show anything for being out of sync on the timing. To add to the story I spent the first month half the time fixing the 3 more cars out back that this guy "fixed" and all his come backs.
I have an Envoy that stalls mainly with a/c on but sometimes with a/c off. TSB on cleaning throttle body and might have a flash update but this thing has almost 200k on it. Same problem you got there, I'm thinking pedal position sensor or electronic throttle. Watching vid now, thanks! Oh, I had P0016 (or maybe it was 14) I think but it was a vvt solenoid. Code gone now but didn't fix problem though. It acts like a bad TPS or APP. Throttle body clean but I cleaned it anyway, didn't fix it. Note: car came in for a/c and somebody installed compressor. Returned with this stalling on light throttle problem. Tech also replaced 1 confirmed bad coil for misfire. This is an 04 Envoy 4.2, exact same problem! I agree with timing chain because I got the 14 or 16 code (I forget which one) when it came in and already replaced actuator solenoid and changed oil. Does it have many miles on it like my Envoy? I will unplug actuator to test Monday! Best video of the day, thank you! But 200 thousand miles, you think I would risk installing a timing chain and phaser in this junk, hell no. They can buy a new engine with a warranty! Not worth it, Envoy wore out, and if you go inside that motor, you own it 😳
I wondered when one of these would be seen by one of the youtube guys! When we were looking for a car for my wife, we looked at the equinox and quickly decided against the 2.4l as a google search indicated owners were having catastrophic engine failure and other related problems caused by the timing chain. Nice to see that confirmed. Great job! How many miles did this timing chain last?
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics if it's burning oil at such low mileage isn't the issue the quality of the engine design? I can't blame an owner who changes their oil on a low mileage car and trusts the company they just invested in to stay working. Me personally I check oil religiously and never trust companies but what I'm saying is what about that older couple who bought and thought they were changing it properly and were but maybe should have been checking it more often but didn't.
Nice diagnosis Ivan. It's truly disturbing to know that out of four dealerships there isn't a single tech capable of making a diagnosis on this. With all of the resources available from the factory it's even more incredible. Way to show em' how it's done Ivan. Thanks!
John Shay Uhm, you don't make a profit replacing $600 PCMs! You make a profit diagnosing the problem efficiently, repairing it right the first time, and minimizing costs involved. The problem is a lack of skilled dealership diagnosticians as Ivan just proved to us. He very clearly pointed that out in case you didn't watch to the end.
This video was very educative. You kept it real and showed the world how are our daily diagnostic work, especially when facing this kind of problems for the first time. It's time and mind consuming and sometimes you just want to set the darn vehicle on fire, but then, persistence and patience pays off. This video also demonstrates that you have no business solving misfires without a scope; just a simple cam/crank correlation test revealed the problem that the stealerships didn't find. Thanks a lot for all your effort, I really appreciate it.
I admire your tenacity on this car. You refused to enter the diagnosis with prejudice and stuck to the plan of "follow the data" and it paid off. I have learned a lot from watching your videos, especially to "tighten up" my own diagnostic procedures.
Definitely one of my favorite videos, Ivan. All of the dealerships missed an opportunity to educate their techs by letting this one go. Unfortunately I have seen too many times where companies are interested in profits over training and experience; which can only help them become more profitable!
The greatest diag you have ever done! You are the man 🍺
Ivan, you and Eric O. are my favorites. Keep up the great videos and work!
Not the fact that is a Chevy it’s more likely the owner not changing oil or other maintenance. Data was showing all other functions were in good order. All brands have problems and it just takes a mechanic that knows to properly troubleshoot. It’s easy to criticize a manufacturer. Thanks again for another outstanding job!
Older pushrod GMs used to be more tolerant of neglected oil changes, and people might still treat the newer ones the same way.
Ivan you are the King in logical thinking. And as allways; throwing parts is the most expensive way to repair a car. I think this case is a matter of stretched chain and one tooth off, can be caused by wear due to forgotten oil changes or so.
At first sight I was leaning toward a dead spot in the TPS, but I knew that should throw a code. Now that I have a scope to play with I am going to start taking cam crank correlation codes on all kinds of stuff that I can play with. I only have 2 channels and an external trigger on my cheap scope though.
Two channels is better than no channels ;)
Two is ok, you just need more test runs.
I started out on TPS just like you. Wasn't too keen on the dirty TB but damned near shit myself when he said it was a chain jump and then proved it Keeping in mind the ONLY symptom was a fatal stutter just off idle..
Like I said before, your video are watched from beginning to end. This was a great case study with a logical (back up with data) ending. I really enjoy these Ivan. Thanks for spending the extra time to post videos.
Thanks so much for the feedback, Wyatt. It is my pleasure to share these case studies and have a great discussion in the comments!
I have seen a few of those turds with chain issues but never had one act like that. Diagnostics well done, Ivan.
Yet another excellent video. As a software developer its obvious to me that GM has attempted to save money on their development team, top developers are expensive but they think of more conditions and situations. Like many attempts to save money, they end up wasting far more. If the chain is off it should trigger a cam correlation fault code.
Outstanding diagnostic mind keep on keeping on. What a treat on a Sunday morning.
As a former gm tech I can tell you based on gm service info, unless its sets the timing codes they arent doing anything with the chains. There is nothing in service info about using a scope to check cam/crank correlation. Good find man.
I can't believe this thing didn't set any correlation codes. Blows my mind!
Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics did you ever figure out what was putting it in open loop? If its in open loop those codes may not be run?
John Shay if people changed their oil every 3000 miles this probably wouldnt be as big of a problem. Gm's oil life system is either the smartest or dumbest thing they ever did depending how you look at it. They basically made the cars disposable after the warranty is up. People will just keep buying new cars rather than spend tons of money to tear the engine down.
As a current GM tech I would have to disagree with this statement. I replace chains constantly on 2.4L LAF, LAP, LE8, LEA, LUK with or without correlation codes. These engines have special policies as well as have issues with
oil consumption.
Did you or anyone try driving the vehicle to see if the correlation codes would set?
I get that if the timing is off it should set right away, but that is not always the case.
How is it that the dealer guys didn't think that it could be a timing issue? Also, goes to show that sometimes you have to spend the time to look for these types of problems. Not all techs want to spend that time. Great job Ivan.
The 2.4L equinox is well know for stretched timing chains... and busted chain guides. It's probably burning oil too. Check that PCV too, it's probably plugged up.
Really enjoyed the case study. I see that precisely syncing the pressure transducer(s) to sensors' signals on scope is a modern solution that cannot be duplicated with old techniques. Time to invest in a pressure transducer. It can open up a whole new dimension to test driving -- possibilities are endless.
Yo Ivan! Fantastic find man! Email me the in cyl waveforms can you? I would like to take a look at them. Did you reanalyze them after knowing the issue to see if you could see the valve timing error on them?
3rd. Your Buddy Came Back to his Senses.
Yea that would be neat to analyze especially if you have the intake camshaft profile. I went back & tried to see if anything stuck out knowing that the intake valve timing is retarded @30 degrees and the compression stroke profile is steeper but w/o degree margins it's hard to tell so I'd be curious if Ivan or you see anything else. It would be neat to see the pressure waveform after the repair. This was a fantastic diagnosis by Ivan!!
Time to call your buddy up! Quick!
Hey Eric, better yet I can swing by sometime and we can analyze these waveforms together! Also, I do want to get the XL-7 Krowned this fall; what location did you take your Tundra to?
Sounds like a plan to me :) I went to the one in Stanley, NY. If you tell them I sent ya they give a discount ;)
Interesting case Ivan! Not an easy one. Great job💪
Great find. One suggestion. You could have looked at Load, Calculated Load or preformed a V.E. test and found a breathing issue with this vehicle without all the work you did. Remember to always verify the basics on any performance issue first. Still a great find. Good job!
I had something similar to this, ended up changing the vvt solenoids (both) and connectors as per the tsb, fixed it right up. Was expecting to see a compression test to confirm the timing issue, but maybe that would be overkill. Great video, keep em coming
This felt like a detective movie. I’m going to get a coffee.
WOW..Ivan.! You never cease to surprise me man... I can see your frustration in that, almost painful to watch you suffer from the smoking thinking wheel. LOL Then the exciting Ivan popped up with the answer. YAY..!
And Thank you for not making it into a part 2 episode and leave use hanging in suspense.
Keep these good ones coming, enjoy watching as always.
Cheers
Can hear the death rattle from the timing chain easily diagnosed by spending 5 min and removing cam cover and inspecting guides and chain slack between cams
The equipment is only as good as the operator. Good thing the scan tools provide what the thinking brain needs. Salute' Ivan..
Outstanding job Ivan.
A Chevy Equinox with a timing chain issue, no way. LOL Those 2010-12 are known for that & oil consumption issues. Great find Ivan. Surprised it didn't see coelation codes. Not sure why it had high pressure fuel codes.
Wow, I would have expected a chain rattle if timing jumped two teeth. You never disappoint in your problem solving ability.
They might have changed the oil as soon as the rattle happened...but the damage was already done!
also looking what gave him direction to go with fuel trims once he seen that in closed loop he knew he had a fueling
problem now to see whats causing it nice work ivan enjoyed it thanks
Damn RUclips ... shut my notifications off again! GRRRR! Missed this one ...
This was a crazy one! I'd have got mad and never figured it out for days, LOL! Ones like this are SUPER frustrating! Great learning experience for all of us though - thanks for sharing!!
haha this was a bit frustrating for sure! How could a stalling "smart" car not set any codes!?!
I hear that! Wonder what the engineers would say if we asked them that? LOL
he did prove it was a timing problem the scope waveform pretty much showed that also. anytime there intake cam off timing
with GDI injection the high pressure pump is off also causing fuel pressure codes
Lots of younger mechanics (parts changers) never think it through. Ivan, you figured it out. I figured at first that it sounded like a timing problem. I never realized it was that far off.
JD
because they're paid to change parts at the dealer service centers, good old flat rate :))
The old 5.7 would set a cam crank relationship code. But I guess this one with v/cam timing won't do it cause it moves around to much. At idle, they should compare cam/ crank. Great find. Nice who dunnit.
When you search a bit on those cars on google ,you can see that there are a lot of timing chain problems,even at very low mileage....
Very interesting video.
That is a great one Ivan very nice. Sometimes the longer it takes the more we learn from it and as long as we do there is no shame in it and sometimes the gut is right.
Yup developing that "sixth sense" has to come from hard-earned experience. It is very rewarding to finally nail it down :)
Ivan, my brain got stormed out.Grateful to sharing your insights. This is the way to go for real deep impact learning experience. BTW, can we not see CMP & CKP timing relations?
Nice diagnoses and fix find Ivan. And you used sound logic!
Wouldn't get anywhere without sound logic on this one haha
Hey ivan,WOW,ur AWESOME ...always look forward to ur diagnosis...Super job...
Nice find Ivan. persistance and determination execellent!
When you're good your good. You're good Ivan great video
Awesome job with the diagnostic on the Chevy!
very cool ivan. I would have never guessed. dealers do a ton of timing chains on these vehicles. you would have think that they would have caught that.
One would think, but I doubt many dealers / dealer techs have a scope setup and actually use it. All too often they go on trouble codes for ultimate direction, but as we see here when they don't actually set you have to go back to the basics. So many parts thrown at this car by the dealers without any definitive proof. I hope the owner didn't have to pay for those.
it seems "flat rate" has struck again, read idiot code and swap parts jam out door for $$$
Excellent vid Ivan! Learned a lot about the cam timing on this one!
Fantastic job Ivan. For a second or two your frustrated face expression said 'get the dynamite and blow the car up' lol
haha but then we would never know why it ran so poorly!
Good one Ivan! Nice troubleshoot!!! damm!!
Yep yep, leave it up to the dealers to throw the "Parts Cannon" at it that's what they always good for, Anyways.... 👌
Cool video...I have a 2011 buick regal with 2.4 and same symptoms exactly,the funny thing is that it was fine one day and the next day the problem started,my timing chain and guides and tensioner have less than 5000 miles on them...this car is on the 3rd engine and second trans,I have been racking my brain for a month wondering what could be happening and now I have a direction to look
Glad you solved it. I was going to suggest checking the cam solenoids as soon as i saw it was an ecotec. My moms ecotec had a similar symptom but thankfully it threw a code for the cam solenoids immediately. Although this equinox the solenoids are probably ok its still an issue with cam timing.
Great diagnosis Ivan! I think it was a dejavu moment because it was so similar to the 2010!
Fantastic diagnostic instincts,job well done!
Careful Ivan Real estate is expensive on the island!!! Or perhaps you'll become a roving diagnostician!
Nice one bud, fun to listen and watch you think!!!!
This was one of the best you have ever done. I think I've seen every video. Except the pay-per-view CVT tear down, shamefully.
Thank you! And go watch the CVT teardown! It really was fascinating :)
It's not pay-per-view anymore.
LOL Keith says it's a good one... way to go Ivan.. velly interesting :) :)
Hi Ivan
If you can get a check after the repair and check where the injection pulse occurs with the proper timing it would be interesting> My money is on you being correct in your assesment that the injection pulse should be on or very near the intake stroke.
Awesome, you are clever man Mr Ivan, lesson to self: if in doubt disconnect variable cam solenoids many thanks Ivan, sandy
And how did end, two tooth or something else? My opinion is because is GDI mixture is important, (you mentioned that) also problem plus because dirty intake valves.
I just finished doing chains on one of these (the one I worked on was a 2013 Equinox, with 60k miles on it) The one I worked on was setting a code for the intake VVT system performance (not a cam/crank correlation code, and nothing for the exhaust). I checked it with a pressure transducer and it was clearly visible in the compression waveforms. I calculated BOTH cams to be off by about 25* (in cylinder waveforms are not as accurate for exact valve opening/closing so it could have been 30). The chain was stretched to the point of the tensioner being about 1/8" from fully extended, after 60k miles! If you ever work on one of these and think about replacing the water pump while you're there, don't. Exhaust and transfer case are both in the way and make it so it takes as long to just replace the water pump as it does to do the chains.
Wow that's some crazy chain stretch in 60k miles. Poor maintenance or poor quality? Thanks for the heads up on the water pump, Kevin. I say if it ain't broke don't touch it haha
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I'd say the stretch was probably a little bit of both. The engine was pretty grungy inside but not quite bad enough to say it needed replaced. The client apparently bought it in 2015 and although they had some sort of aftermarket warranty, they couldn't provide the warranty company with receipts showing regular maintenance...Inside of the engine looked like it had 150+k miles on it.
Did you happen to take a good sample of the pressure transducer after.? Curious if you'd see the injector pulse move up the intake stroke
only half way through the video at the moment - almost wondered if it was a TPS - where the switching breaks over from no throttle to throttle - curious to see what you find.
As soon as you seen that it works on a quick throttle press, but not a slow one: I immediately thought it was the TPS or the APPS
Wow! Awesome diag, Ivan! Splendid work!
Great case study. I would also like to analize the in-cylinder pressure transducer waveforms, is there a way you can host them somewhere? Thanks
Another great one Ivan. 38 min well spent
The intake cam controls and powers the high pressure fuel pump and the fuel pressure to the injectors. Question - Since it takes 2 turns of the crankshaft for one turn of camshafts, is the 30 degree intake retardation figure correctly calculated? Since the cam chain tensioner controls timing chain tightness and prevents the timing chain from jumping timing when the chain is tight enough, I would check the operation of the cam chain tensioner before doing a timing chain job. Finally, the connector on top of the intake cam actuator on your vehicle is grey, a color used only on the 2010 LAF 2.4L engines, after the 2010 model year, the intake and exhaust cam actuators are the same part number and both have black top connectors. Similarly the front cover of the 2010 intake VVT sprocket was grey to match the actuator's color, and thereafter has a black plastic front covet, like the exhaust sprocket. The intake VVT intake cam may also changed from 2010 to later years to accommodate the different mounting point on the VVT sprocket to mate to the intake cam shaft.
There was a warranty repair authorized on this generation of 2.4L Equinoxes and Terrains with the 2.4L Ecotec engine, where the factory authorized the removal and replacement of the water pump and balance shaft chain and accessories, which is located behind the cam timing chain, which has to be removed to do the warranty repair. Replacement of the cam timing chain was not authorized, but it had to be removed and replaced, without screwing up the cam timing, and I don't think the dealers were paid enough to do both jobs correctly.
On my 2010 Equinox, the dealer techs apparently did not want to go to any extra trouble dealing with the cam timing chain, probably because there was no money in it for them, and they apparently reset the cam timing chain tensioner from the inside of the engine(not an approved method of doing this critical step) and destroyed the delicate internals of my original cam chain tensioner, resulting within a few thousand miles in lowered spring tension and oil pressure to tension the cam chain, thereby resulting in the chain jumping timing on both cams, causing multiple errors. Key among these was a much lower fuel pressure to the injectors, and cam/crank correlation codes, reduced engine power, throttle body and accelerator pedal codes, etc., for a total of about 10 different, seemingly unrelated DTC error codes. Dealer couldn't figure it out, but wanted about $5,700 to $5,800 to shoot the parts cannon at it, with no guarantees, and the lady service writer told me she thought the engine was blown, even though I had driven the car into the dealership, and she said that it had no salvage value at all because of the engine. They had let the battery go flat, so I couldn't test it at the dealership, but after towing it 125 miles to my home, a new battery cranked it up immediately, but fixing the real problems has been a chore. No independent mechanic in my part of the woods will touch one of these things - literally will not physically lay a finger on it - and I learned how to do it on my own, with the help of RUclips, a printed shop manual, an 8,800 page downloadable shop manual, and two on-line services used by mechanics. Using OEM parts helps in getting good results.
That's quite the story. Screw the dealership!
good morning here Ivan, I was wondering how is the best way to do cam and crank correlation scope , with solenoids unplug is the normally how you doit? tell me some thing please , awesome video my friend way out my head this diag.
Hi Joel, yes it is best to do the correlation with the solenoids unplugged, with the phasers in the default full-retarded position :)
That is awesome how Snap On put the relevant live data and functional tests right on the same screen as the troubleshooter. It would be even better if they allowed you to expand each PID into a graph like you can in the scanner. On a separate note, have you ever thought about putting a non-glare screen protector on your Verus just for better video? There probably isn't one available to directly fit, but cutting down one for something like an iPad Pro would work.
Very good video man, however i couldnt help but notice that during your diagnosis , you forgot to check the quality of the blinker fluid, or for end play in the muffler bearings.. very important on these newer model chevys lol
Ivan ain't no joke bro, I wana know if this dude ever been stumped. I doubt it, but will he ever tell? Lol. Great job Ivan.
I did get stumped by a BMW X5 once, but it ran better with the MAF sensor unplugged so the customer left it that way haha
That was pretty cool! Well done, Ivan!
Automotive CSI at its best! Good going Ivan!
if you sit back and think about it the cam being off makes sense with the fuel trim being so negative usually thats a sign of timing being off. but sometimes things dont cross your mind in the field til you can sit back and think about it
Negative fuel trims I usually associate with a stuck EGR, which this one did not have....but VVT accomplishes the same goal! A lot of variables on modern engines, where literally everything is adjustable haha
So my question is does the equinox have variable valve timing? The reason I ask is that masking the problem of being off 2 teeth making the problem that much more difficult. So difficult in fact four shops could not find the problem. What I am really asking is do you have a method for quickly checking this without the pico scope? Somehow there must be a quicker method to discover tooth jump on timing. This seems ridiculous.
suprised the chain wasn't clattering with tensioner loose or maybe it would when real hot.
My daughter had one. Very low oil to activate vvt valves would stumble at lights ran rough different times. Also changed fuel pump?
still at a loss on the no code for cam crank correlation...at our shop we are changing stretched timing chains on chevy Colorados with 15 degrees of offset at startup only...people cannot pass the emission test with check engine light on........software must have some kind of self-zeroing like a throttle position sensor?!?....very very strange...BUT..once again an awesome video!!!!
I wonder why these chains stretch so much? My Mazda MPV with the B2600 SOHC engine has a single-row chain, and at 245k miles the marks still line up dead center and the tensioner is not extended even half way...
Probably because they are using rejected Chinese bicycle chain instead of good hardened steel.
I have a 2012 equinox with 95k on it that I'm fighting with now. Starts and drives but randomly, the throttle will become nearly unresponsive, RPM will drop, it will either stall out or come out of it and start driving again. It will sit and idle for as long as you will let it, and its only under load driving that it will hiccup. It has thrown air, fuel, and catalytic codes but I clear them and nothing returns consistently. No codes related to timing or misfires on a particular cylinder, only random/multiple cylinder misfire. I kept thinking the TPS sensor was going bad in the throttle body but the data showed it was working fine. Data showed both fuel pressures were fine but several people insisted that I change the HPFP so I nabbed one dirt cheap off a wrecked equinox but nothing changed. VVT solenoid change and nothing improved. Pulled the valve cover and inspected the timing chain visually and nothing looked concerning, but I didn't inspect the timing marks to see if either of them had jumped a tooth. Tomorrow, I'll try running it with the VVT's unplugged and see if I have similar results.
@@TheDestroyer1250 watch the "Mystery Malibu" video 😉
AWESOME! is this why the injector pulse was in a diferent spot than you expected? triggerd by intake cam sensor?
In the dealer you get paid one hour. if you take three hour to fine the problem you only get paid one hour .and on warranty you get .5 but i got to say you very good at what you do
That explains the parts cannon lol
Great diagnostic effort. Would you confirm that the timing chain/tensioner and/or sprocket/phaser replacement solved the problem you identified? I have an Equinox with mysterious problems, and inquiring minds need to know if the repair was successful. Equinoxes are extraordinarily frustrating to diagnose without shooting the parts cannon at them.
Great job Ivan. Thank you and Keith for sharing your cases and knowledge with us.
the fun ones are always the most frustrating while diagnosing!
I’m having the same issues same year car. I’m 26 minutes into this video and I’m feeling your frustration
Did you come up with the same result/ remedy? Mine is identical symptom, but new complete timng set and no change.
@@bsparks78 no I’m learning to live with it. Neutral at stop lights. That’s the half ass fix for me. I replaced the air intake manifold and throttle body. The oil smell went away but rough idle and stall still present
Could it have something to do with the shifter or the ignition in the steering column? I've those affect vehicles before...IDK just throwing spaghetti at the wall. We are experiencing the exact same issue with a 2016 at my work.
Watching till the end to know the fault then replaying it and looking for clues.
Around 31:30
Before you disconnect the cam actuators
The exhaust CMP data pid fluctuates a fair bit, however the intake CMP hardly moves.
Could this have been a clue while looking at the live data suggesting timing?
Great video, Thanks Ivan
I was very surprised thaton both intake and exhaust cams the desired and actual followed each other exactly, even though the timing was confirmed off at the end! Amazing!
Ivan can u put actual Tim of all diagnoses in your videos we c the length like this one is 38:14 but what was the actual time start to finish. Thx grate job.🎉🎉🎉🎉😎
This is why I will stick with late 1990's to mid 2000's cars. The newer cars are simply TOO COMPLEX !!! There is not many things that I can't figure out even without a fancy scan tool. Everything else is elementary--fuel, spark or timing. Congrats on finding the problem that 4 dealers couldn't find.
That is a mega common problem on the ecotec engines we get in the uk, jumping teeth on the cam sprockets, first thing we get is a very consistent rattling in the timing chain then wham bam the chain jumps , or worst still destroying the engine
Interesting. I would say it's just as common in the US. This one didn't rattle...probably because they changed the oil after it was too late lol
NICE JOB brother! You are awesome!
Which cam sensor is used for the high pressure fuel pump delivery angle?
So, I take it this can be a common problem? My wife loves her 2015 Terrain and wants to hang onto it long term. Does that mean I'll have oil consumption and timing issues to look forward to?
do we suspect a TPS associated issue, for guidance?
Nice diagnostic work. What were the solenoids that were disconnected in order to find the issue?
Had a 2012 Focus that made me scratch my head for a minute. It was at this shop for over a month, it was my 1st day and I was replacing their head heavy mechanic and diag tech so it was my first car there. It cranked, wouldn't start. Had fuel, spark, good compression, cam sync read "ok" on data etc... Looked at it closer and saw the bill, the guy replaced the timing cover. I asked where is the tool for locking in the cams, crank and balancer alignment tool and they said "huh?" I knew then that he just slapped it together and those are a crush washer behind the harmonic balancer that keep time. He was like 60 ' off and it was just spraying fuel in on the exhaust stroke because the crank trigger was way back but somehow it did not show anything for being out of sync on the timing. To add to the story I spent the first month half the time fixing the 3 more cars out back that this guy "fixed" and all his come backs.
I have an Envoy that stalls mainly with a/c on but sometimes with a/c off. TSB on cleaning throttle body and might have a flash update but this thing has almost 200k on it. Same problem you got there, I'm thinking pedal position sensor or electronic throttle. Watching vid now, thanks!
Oh, I had P0016 (or maybe it was 14) I think but it was a vvt solenoid. Code gone now but didn't fix problem though. It acts like a bad TPS or APP. Throttle body clean but I cleaned it anyway, didn't fix it.
Note: car came in for a/c and somebody installed compressor. Returned with this stalling on light throttle problem. Tech also replaced 1 confirmed bad coil for misfire. This is an 04 Envoy 4.2, exact same problem!
I agree with timing chain because I got the 14 or 16 code (I forget which one) when it came in and already replaced actuator solenoid and changed oil. Does it have many miles on it like my Envoy? I will unplug actuator to test Monday! Best video of the day, thank you! But 200 thousand miles, you think I would risk installing a timing chain and phaser in this junk, hell no. They can buy a new engine with a warranty! Not worth it, Envoy wore out, and if you go inside that motor, you own it 😳
ruclips.net/video/L-A61JyqsTM/видео.html
Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics Yes another very likely suspect I never thought of. Thanks Ivan!
I wondered when one of these would be seen by one of the youtube guys! When we were looking for a car for my wife, we looked at the equinox and quickly decided against the 2.4l as a google search indicated owners were having catastrophic engine failure and other related problems caused by the timing chain. Nice to see that confirmed. Great job! How many miles did this timing chain last?
About 60k miles. I think the issue is usually lack of maintenance and not checking oil level by the owners. These engines do burn some.
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics if it's burning oil at such low mileage isn't the issue the quality of the engine design? I can't blame an owner who changes their oil on a low mileage car and trusts the company they just invested in to stay working. Me personally I check oil religiously and never trust companies but what I'm saying is what about that older couple who bought and thought they were changing it properly and were but maybe should have been checking it more often but didn't.
Pressure test fuel line and see if it leaks down after a while.Could be in fuel tank where sender is.
Awesome! How did you come across the known good wave forms for the cam crank signal?
And what would happen if you left the those 2 disconnected?
Wouldn't the cam be off only 1 tooth (15.6°) because you would double the cam degrees to get the crank degrees ?
I always refer to crank degrees to avoid confusion. So 2 teeth = 30 degrees of crank rotation = 15 degrees of cam rotation. But 2 teeth is 2 teeth :)
Watching this one again.
How do you charge for something like this? Aren't most diagnostic 1 hour flat rate?
It looked to me that on your pressure transducer your firing event looked off ???
At times the ignition event seemed overly advanced, but I was not sure if this was just a characteristic of a direct injection setup :)