Should the REBELS have used ARC-170s instead of X-Wings? | Star Wars Lore
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- Опубликовано: 5 окт 2024
- Was the ARC-170 a better Rebel Fighter? Should the Alliance have used the Clone Wars era Republic Star Fighter instead of the X-Wing? That and more on today's Star Wars Legends lore video!
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In the Legends book Millennium Falcon it's mentioned that the Alliance used Arc-170s and Z-95s before getting the X-wing
thank you eck
Wait, before I even watch this, didn't you recently do a video explaing the abject FAILURE of the ARC-170 starfighter as one of the primary reasons for the demise of the Acclimator class star destroyers almost immediately after the clone war ended?!?
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Pros- Hits harder and carries more weapons.
Cons- Is a hanger queen and needs more crew to operate.
I meant to discuss the hangar issue, so that's a good point.
@@EckhartsLadder And that's not just an issue on starships for the Rebels, an ARC is harder to hide/needs a wider, harder to hide exit to any secret base hangars.
I can see an argument for ARC, the rear facing gun. Hit hard and can loiter a little longer. As the ARCs are 'fading' the rear gun can fire at TIEs that are pursuing.
@@isaacgraff8288 You're almost always better off with a wingman than a tail gunner, but if you can't afford a second ship at all, I guess it works.
Isaac Graff There were backward guns on early WWII tanks，but they phased out fairly quickly. Not because they are not useful，but just that the trade-off is not worth it. You‘d need one dedicated operator for that gun，yet it won't increase the efficiency enough to justify the extra room required for the setup.
Furthermore，in space it is a lot more maneuverable than on the ground，which makes backward guns even less useful. Because we have to remember that the pursuing enemy would have their frontal shield facing your back guns，and if frontal shield can hold against frontal guns for quite few shots，I don't think the less powerful back guns would be of much use either.
The rebels probably just didn’t have enough pilots to have full squads of ARCs
Exactly. You'd have three times less fighters.
@@anzaca1 You only need the one pilot though, the other two are far less specialized roles
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Nice picture of Lego Yoda
They probably would've stripped it down like they did the Y-Wing, and made a 1 pilot 1 droid ship.
Just like real life weapon system operators and navigators, they needn't be fully trained pilots.
ARCs should screen for Y-wings, which is what they did in the clone wars. X-Wings and A-Wings should be used for fighter supremacy.
Not versatile enough. The Rebels had few resources and had to stretch their fighters to the maximum. No room for specialised ordnance support craft that require three crew members.
Exactly.
A-Wings should stick to intercepting snub fighters and bombers and stick close to the ships they're assigned to protect. A few maybe could assist the X-Wings and a few X-Wings stay behind with the rest of the A-Wings. Rebel Y-Wings are actually pretty decent dogfighters in their own right and so could come out with the X-Wings without just being scrapped by interceptors. Screen with X-WIngs, Y-Wings and a few A-Wings work together to get the bombs to the target while the X-Wings shift to cover their rears and flanks.
The rebels would have lost 3 pilots per ark 170, that would put a strain on them not to mention the rebels were looking for fast attacks and then leaving
Only one pilot. One gunner and one operations guy.
More personal then
@@technopirate
'More personal then' - Not being a nazi about this, but: 'personnel'. It only matters when it rilly matters. Solly. :)
@@jayferguson9968 maybe he literally meant 'personal' tho. But anyways, the amount of crew you would need to have as many active arcs to make up for using them would be prohibitively high.
And the Legends ARC only had one firing port for Torpedoes so it had to shoot single file, possibly getting fewer off in a pass.
Imagine how the trench run would've gone if they had tail guns to shoot back
If Gold Squadron had flown ARC-170s instead Y-Wings, they might have been able to successfully launch their torpedoes thanks to the self-covering firepower of their tail guns. However, the Y-Wings were able to be modified to fire their turreted ion cannons rearward and the Rebels didn't even try to employ those. Finally, we know that the targeting computers had great difficulty making the shot and Luke likely still would have needed to be the one to do it.
Or if they also had dedicated gunners to deal with targeting, since everybody died when they were too busy looking at their targeting computer to deal with other threats.
Tail guns and turrets in general are largely worthless in actual air combat, hence why very few planes produced post 1950 have them. If the ties had seen arc170s they could've used their superior manoeuvrability and speed to do high side gun passes, limiting the amount of time any tail gunner would have on them, or they could've attacked from below, since a tail gunner wouldn't be able to bring his gun below the horizon.
@@Biriadan well remember post 1950s the jet was introduced and at high speeds, a tail gunner just wasnt worth it.
The star wars dogfighting more closely replicated ww2 aviation, where tail guns were imperative to protect large fighters and bombers. I think just because it's star wars, an arc-170 tail gun can 1-2 shot a tie fighter, making it a bigger threat to tie pilots.
But hey maneuverability is usually the way to go
@@Ms.Strahl so why cant the astromech be in charge or the turret gun?
Do ARC-170s actually need 3 people to fly or is that just the optimal setup? Because it sounds like the copilot was their mostly so the pilot could sleep on recon missions and could easily be dropped. Also you could easily drop the rear gunner OR have someone who’s not a good star fighter pilot, like a trooper, man the turret and that wouldn’t lose you any pilots
Tai_24 They can be flown by one person. All weapons could also be used by one person.
Um the astromech should be able to co pilot and shoot gunss of course not at the same time but astromechs are pretty good
I think they based the design off a f 14 so the copilot would act more like a RIO.
yea like, the copilot i assume is mostly for sleep rotations, and could be replaced by a astromech, and besides the reargunner could also be replaced with a say a battledroid? or just have the astromech do both?
Kerbal spacepolice “Waste him, R4!”
2nd place video gets featured instead of the video voted 1st place.
"I love democracy."
He is the senate
Its treason then
He formed the first Eckhart empire. (Cue thunderous applause)
He loves the rEckpublic.
So this is how liberty dies
Arc-170s are so sexy. I really wanna see them more often in modern Star Wars cannon.
@@JingleJangle256 It's not a fighter, and everybody who fielded it like it was an X-Wing was either desperate or stupid. Think less Bf109 and more Me410. Different jobs.
@@JingleJangle256 Because when you fly behind the Arc 170 you get shot at by the rear gunner. Also it's still way faster than a Y wing and those still fare well against Tie fighters. Also it's got heavier cannons that still fire fast and better shields and armor than an X wing. Speed isn't everything because otherwise Tie fighters would beat X wings all the time.
Would have preferred seeing a flight of updated ARCs instead of those SciFi versions of the B-17 in Last Jedi
The resistance could have used rubber ducks and it would still be better than those piece of shit bombers
ID Imagine 9/10 Times the reargunner would destroy the unshielded TIEs before they would Even have a Chance to inflict Any actual damage on the ACR bc of their streng shields.
Why weren't the Rebels able to obtain deflector shields from Naboo?
If I recall a Naboo queen rebelled very early after order 66, though that may be legends now, so any rebel sympathizers on Naboo were probably stamped out in the early days of the Empire long before the Rebellion formed 10+ years later.
You’re correct, it is Legends now sadly
And Legends or not，since the emperor was from Naboo，I‘d imagine he would put heavy garrison there anyway，so it might not be easy for rebel to get deflector shields
@@songyani3992 Even if they had them, the shields they specialize in are short range and can only cover half a garrison. It's too much trouble for now enough equipment.
When you guys mean legends, you mean canon.
Disney is not fucking canon!-
Little Kitten, Captain General of the Adeptus Custodies.
It was definitely manpower and cost that made the “X-Wing” the definitive alliance light fighter.
What the ARC lacks in maybe speed,acceleration, and agility it makes up for in weapons, shielding, and versatility.
When the alliance became the new republic they fixed the flaws of the arc 170 when they developed the e wing. Even with the e wing gaining popularity the x wing still remains the preferred fighter of alliance pilots
@@JingleJangle256 the ARC has a rear gun...
What the ARC lacks in its movement capabilities could probably be corrected by Incom by the time of the X-Wing's production. Especially if an astromech was used instead of a co-pilot and to handle the turrets. The rest of the crew space could be used for something like larger power and shield generators, which would improve power to the repulsors and the strength of the shields.
In dogfight with tie i see also problem with face weapons. They are overkill for TIE, but they have low firerate, as we can see during clone wars
What would be interesting is seeing what the Rebels would do with a bunch of surplus ARC-170's - the modifications they would make.
Besides the ECM versions suggested, there's one advantage the Rebels have…lots of alien members, some a lot smaller than a human. So the other two positions could, for example, utilise half of the space set aside for the two (non pilot) muscular human clones and use that for extra bombs. Or a extra laser cannon turret could be mounted front, controlled by the copilot, who's only Ewok sized (not an actual Ewok, say someone like Lando Calrissian's copilot, Nien Nunb).
As others have pointed out, only *1 actual fighter jock pilot* is needed, the gunner is just any kid that can operate a turret.
The copilot just needs to be able to ferry the ARC-170 while the skilled pilot takes a break. That would actually be useful for long range strikes, so the main pilot is fresh and rested for when the action starts once they get near the target.
The copilot's main skill set is operating sensors and ECM, and maybe launching ordinance. Also they are a extra pair of eyes, always useful.
But they don't need the reflexes and training of a Flyboy, just a basic shuttle pilot. And not even then, they just need to keep it pointed the right way in flight, the main pilot does the takeoffs and landings [so really the piloting skills of a 9/11 hijacker are enough… too soon?]
It did have one other advantage over the Y-wing, it could damage larger targets by using is turbolasers, instead of just having to rely on (sometimes difficult to procure, and costly) proton torpedoes and other ordinance. So for softer targets like non military ships such as supply convoys or fixed installations, it could just blast away with main guns and save the torpedoes for hard targets that can shoot back (a strategy used by U-boats, they'd use their deck gun against long freighters and not waste torpedoes).
Tabana gas is cheap and easy to get without suspicion, torpedoes and bombs can't be spammed without a logistic supply chain to replace them.
So it's not a real replacement for the X-Wing, but it would make a great replacement for the Y-wing.
And imagine if Incom updated the design, perhaps also incorporating X-wing components when applicable, to aid logistics.
[Also there was a redesign done by either Ecks or Spacedock. It moved the turbolasers to the nose and ditched the copilot, among other things.]
_And just make it meaner._
Or use one astromech...
@@midgetydeath modding it to use an astromech instead of a copilot would make a lot of sense. From Luke's lines when he's talking to R2-D2 flying his X-Wing to Dagobah, it's implied that R2 asked if Luke wanted the droid to take over flying, so this is clearly not only possible but routine for astromechs to act as autopilots for starfighters. And the rebels make heavy use of astromech droids.
While I don't think an ARC-170 could function in the exact role of speedy strike fighter like the X-Wing, the Alliance could probably use them for scouting, with the ability to do some damage if they needed to, or use it for other kinds of special ops or whatever. For extremely long duration missions you could even modify the copilot's cockpit to be a sleeping berth or something.
Actually now I kinda want a comic or show about a rebel agent who uses a heavily modded ARC-170.
ARC-170 is my favorite star wars starship...I think it would have been super helpful for the rebels in more specialized roles but definitely not as a replacement for the x-wing
Nicholas Eickman there was WAY more to the war than just dogfighting. The ARC-170 would have worked very well in conjunction with the rebel star fighter fleet. The problem with a fighter that’s designed to do everything, like the X-Wing is it does none of it particularly well. Hence the need for more specialized craft like the A-Wing, Y-Wing and B-Wing. The ARC-170 could have easily have fit the niche the B-Wing does until that ship was released.
It does have a really neat silhouette, like a *, but more variable wing lengths. More interesting than just an X
@@JingleJangle256 Lmfao you have no clue about fighters...The F-22 is bigger, faster and more maneuverable than the F-35. The F-35 is slow, less manueverable, less armor and is worthless in any role. A more apt comparison wpuld be the F-4 Phantom and the F/A-18C Hornet. Both planes could do the same jobs and the Phantom is actually a lot faster than the Hornet. The Phantom had a 2 man crew while the Hornet has a 1 man crew (The Super Hornets have a 2 man crew). Both the Phantom and Hornet can operate in air to air or air to ground functions with the Phantom having advantages in range and weight of payload over the Hornet. The advantage of the Hornet is it's smaller, more maneuverable and while it can't carry the payload of the Phantom it has access to a larger variety of weapons than the Phantom did.
Arc-170’s do look cooler than X-Wings in my opinion
Dio Brando I agree. And the Jedi Starfighters look cooler than the Tie Fighter.
It really does, just that the rebels wouldn't have been able to afford three pilots on one fighter.
P-61 Black Widows in SPAAACE!
PS: The entire aircrew needn't be fully trained pilots, just like in real life.
Well you are entitled to your opinion but that doesn’t mean you aren’t completely wrong, which you most certainly are.
You're certainly allowed to be wrong. :)
*No*
The Arc-170 was an *expensive* HEAVY Fighter for specific tasks. The X-Wing was just a Fighter.
Saying the Arc 170 is better than the X-Wing is like saying the Bf-110 was better than the Bf-109, or Mosqito better than a Spitfire, or P-38 better than P-51D Mustang.
A more apt comparison to the Arc-170 could be the B-Wing.
Or a better comparison for the X-Wing would be the Z-95 Headhunter.
More appropriate comparisons for their roles.
You make good points. Imo, the ARC-170 strikes me as a space-faring P-61 Black Widow.
@@MalfosRanger I mean that's literally what it was concepted on so it makes sense. Even down to the advanced scanning equipment in the nose.
Yeah I was just thinking it might be more comparable to the B-Wing. Heavy multi-role fighter. Though I'm pretty sure the X-wing is superior in every aspect to the Z-95 except maybe price.
I wouldn't use the BF-110 as an example of a "good" fighter. The only place that fighter has ever been good is in war thunder arcade battles. In WW-II BF-110 fighter's ended up needing to be escorted by other fighters.
The ARC-170 and A/SF-01 (B-Wing) are very similar in terms of Role and Cost.
These as a note both are Fighter-Bombers., where-as the BTL-A/B/S is just a Light Bomber.
What I think does heavily favour the ARC-170 is that it's actually very close to the speed of the TIE/LN or T-65 (X-Wing) … what it lacks is the Manoeuvrability, but it does have the Point-Defence Turret on the Rear (which has a 360 Degree Arc) as well as it's Dual Turbo Laser and Dual Laser Canon on the Wing Tips that have Articulation for Target Tracking.
This might not seem like a big deal, but provided the Pilot can keep a Target within the Forward (60 Degree) Arc; those Main Guns can (from the Central Gunnery Position) can track them. (The Pilot can also fire them, but lacks the ability to Track w/o an Astromech Droid)
Now as a keynote Incom did develop and produce the Z-95, ARC-170 and T-65.
The thing is... the ARC-170 was exclusively developed for the Galactic Republic for the Clone Wars., and while they could get away with supplying Z-95 given these were Standard Commercial Ships (i.e. wouldn't be traceable) and T-65 (as these were developed Post-War as the Replacement for the Z-95) … the Rebels suddenly showing up with ARC-170, well that would be a red flag to the Empire that Incom was openly supporting the Rebellion.
I mean the same is true in regards to the adoption of the A/SF-01 … the ARC-170 would've been FAR Superior in said Role., but the B-Wing was an unknown (Mon Calamari) Prototype; this then just looks like the Rebels created it themselves; where-as the ARC-170 again, would be obvious as to it's origins.
What Incom could've (and probably did) was pass on the Blueprints to the Rebel Alliance., but initially speaking Z-95 and T-65 would've just made the most sense to the Rebel Alliance in joint operations; while early Rebellion Actions would've used anything they could've beg, borrowed or stolen "On Site" (so to speak).
When the Rebels were coordinated and unified enough for things like the ARC-170 to have made sense... well the T-65 would've become such a mainstay that I doubt anyone would've even thought to use such an ancient ship; heck they might've even dismissed it as a Relic unable to be competitive enough for their needs.
A lot of things about this channel are so calming, this background music and your voice, even if you are talking about war crimes, it's still strangely calming
G2 Eck needs to do Star Wars Lore ASMR
@@billo8316 lol
The difference between a Superiority Fighter and a Long Range Recon - Bomber. Different missions.
In a universe so heavily effected by Dog Fighting. Having a massive Silhouette and less maneuverability than your opponent
You could put an astromech behind the pilot and replace the rest of the crew space with a larger power generator and shield generator to dramatically improve maneuverability and durability. And by the time of the first Death Star, Incom probably could have put greatly improved engines in the ARC.
Might have less maneuverability but that tail gunner makes up for it.
@@rc59191 Darn right. In the trench run part the ties will have a hard time taking them out. Even Vader and his tie
@@bradhedgehog12 exactly and that bottleneck makes targeting those TIE Fighters much easier.
@@rc59191 mmhmm. So for that I’m Going for the ARC-170. It did got a 7 out of 10 rate in winning in Star Wars Star ship vs the 170 vs the x wing
A ARC-170 and X-wing would work very well together, but neither is just straight up better then the other as they are different roles.
ARC-170s always struck me as a ship that was in the wrong role. They look more suited to a role as fighter bombers or the Star Wars equivalent of torpedo bombers. Why have those massive wings if not to load them down with ordinance?
The s foils I’m guessing. Also I wouldn’t label it a torpedo bomber it’s more of a heavy fighter like a tiger cat, or p61 or strike fighter like il 2 or tis ma. Tbh it would be prefect to escort y wings like the republic used them.
Being in a fighter cockpit for days-long scouting sounds awful.
The H-wing starwars.fandom.com/wiki/BTS-A2_Long-Range_Strike_Fighter/Bomber Because Incom couldn't force the ARC-170 to fit a refresher.
So does the experience of most trench soldiers in WWI. Sometimes the endurance of people with a cause is surprising.
Can you say portal vein thrombosis?
You'd probably end up smelling like feet wrapped in leathery burnt bacon after two weeks.
@@teekayfourtwoone4686 Nice Robot Chicken reference!
The X wing was a good ship, the Arc 170 is a very good equal in some respects, especially with that rear gunner with better firepower
I’d like to use both if I would in my navy
use the X wing as a main line, and have the ARC replace some of the previous Y wing roles, or be escorts for them?
kirknay yeah, though make it a 2 person fighter to save on personnel and add some power to the ship in my opinion
That would make it better, and have those 4 s foil wings have light repeating lasers, that would be useful
Maybe it should've been integrated into the fleet like the B-wings were. Not too many, but enough to have 1 in each fighter wing to act as a support vessel.
It also occurs to me that the ARC fighters being wider might have had a hard time fitting and maneuvering in the tight confines of the two Death Star runs.
Eh, the Falcon got inside 2, so an ARC easily could have as well.
The rear gunner would have likely saved a few pilots though, as the main issue was that they couldn't attack behind them.
What goes through my head every time I hear the letter Z pronounced as Zed:
Atlantis episode 1 - Rising
McKAY: We need the ZedP.M. to power the Gate.
O'NEILL: What?
JACKSON: ZeeP.M. He's, uh, he's Canadian.
O'NEILL (sympathetically to McKay): I'm sorry.
"Don't touch anything"
SHEPPARD *Sits in chair and turns it on*
I have a really good question that would make for a good video, should the REBELS have used Battle Droids?
I think he explained this a bit in a previous video. Part of the reason many in the republic were so willing to accept the Empire was because of the terror of the Confederacy, billions died during the Clone Wars and people were willing to essentially give up their freedom in exchange for safety. Using the battle droids certainly would have been helpful to the Rebel's militarily especially bomb droids and droid star fighters, however politically it would have been a disaster. The only reason the rebellion worked was because they were able to win the hearts and minds of the people, but if they used the droids, the same droids that killed billions as well as spread terror throughout the galaxy that support goes away real quick. The Empire also would have been able to use it's political power to smear the rebels as confederate hold outs (which many were anyway) and make it seem like anyone who gave even a hint of support or was wasn't against the rebels as confederate sympathizers allowing them to arrest them. Also one last thing, for the rebels to be able to field a significant amount of droids would have required a factory meaning they would have to tied themselves to a planet, sure they did that with Yavin and Hoth, but I think it would be a bit much for the rebels. They also could have maybe made a type of factory ship but that takes a lot of resources and the ship would probably be very slow. So really no they should not have used them because it would not have worked out well for the Rebels at all, sure there is the chance of killing more imperials, but the empire has the numbers advantage while the rebels do not.
Shadow Cobra I get what you’re saying, and that may be true, but if that was the case, then why would the Rebels use things from the CIS, such as tanks and ships, I can understand it would be hard to gather resources to build them, but even the B1s can bolster their numbers, then it means more hands to help with ether their everyday tasks or with making new droids for the Rebellion, and it wouldn’t be too far off for the Rebels to modify and repaint the Battle Droids to suit the Rebellions needs, or even build brand new Battle Droids for them to use, and they can have scavengers go finds bits and pieces, once even the Empire would overlook, and I can imagine them converting a large number of Lucrehulk’s into Droid Factory ships, and yes, they are slow, but as long as they are always on the move and mostly run by droids, they should be fine, and I don’t think the fear of droids is gonna matter if you have to deal with a tyrannical regime that’s worse then the CIS, and as long as you have people who are experienced with handling and building droids, they should be fine too, and obviously they will have to use the droids differently to the CIS since the Rebels can’t afford to waist them as the CIS could, since with factory ship, production would be slower and with the low resources, so the Rebels will have to be carful with how they use them, but I do believe with the droids help to double their numbers, they can build and do more than they could before
In canon I think, according to the game Star Wars Commander, both the Empire and Rebels used Droidekas. Also the Rebellion used AAT tanks and Hailfire Droids. But besides a B1 battle droids known as Mr Bones, idk any other being used. Maybe we will see more of this in the future, since currently the Rebel ground units roster consists of mostly Clone Wars era equipment.
Edit: oh yeah, I also forgot about the Vulture droids used by the Free Ryloth movement during their rebellion against the Empire.
"But Eckhart, you said the winner of the poll would be the next video!"
"I am altering the deal, pray I don't alter it any further..."
They probably would have streamlined the ARC-170 into something similar to the snow speeders from Hoth.
A pilot and a rear gunner plus the astromech.
You could probably remove the gun and be just fine most of the time, depending on what you were trying to use it for.
@@Halinspark After the Interceptor was added you'd want a rear gunner to get them off of you, and as proven by the Clone Wars era a humanoid mind is better than most droids, and I doubt the Rebels could find or buy the types who are.
Thanks for linking that Tie Fighter short film, never saw it before and its awesome
When the option you voted for in the poll came in second but you get the video made anyway:
*"I love democracy"*
Look it comes to this in the end
Would you rather fly 1 full strength ARC-170, or 3 T-65’s
Seems like a no brainer really.
U mean 2 full strength x wings, arguably 1. The rear gunner doesn’t need to be a pilot and the copilot is kinda redundant. In ww2 my great grandfather was a bottom gunner for bombers in the pacific. He had 0 training on how to fly it and was infantry. It was actually quite common for army infantry in the pacific to do since they were usually in the rear because the marines did most of the actual fighting. U can throw any one back there with a quick run down of the gun.
Since Fallen Order is now canon, we know resistance cells were able to secure Clone Wars era stuff like the LAAT that Saw had on the Wookie planet
yea i saw that tie fighter short, i was super impressed with the quality animation style, very anime feeling, whoever did that did good, very interesting style that could work for a half hour weekly cartoon if it could be pushed out that fast, daily would be better but thats just a dream haha
1 on 1 battle？Yes. Massive equipment for entire army？Probably not. Grand army of republic has a design philosophy to utilize fighters and carriers （Venator class）as main battle force. And they have more resource to use than the rebels，which makes arc-170 useful for their tactics. But rebels don't have the luxury for that.
It’s Not really a luxury item tbh. It fits in well with the rebels line up. It’s Hyper drive capable, well armed, and fast. It’s military surplus like the y wing. It’s smaller then a b wing and customizable. Hell you really only need one pilot and the back gunner can be anyone or even be replaced by a droid.
How about a video on planetary shields? Or ground shields in general. Range from say, squad level barriers, to the CIS's expanding shield from Christophis, to shields that cover cities. Finally, covering planetary shields. What it takes to have them, their disadvantages, how factions have gone about either disabling them or getting around them.
The Rebels had ARC-170's however the X-Wing has more engines, more weapons, and survival gear. But yes the tail gun is a benefit.
Bold of you to assume the ARC had no survival gear,and the 2 heavy laser cannons on the ARC I'd say match the 4 medium laser cannons the X-wing has
@@TimberwolfJ1 I don't doubt it. I looked in the cross sections and didn't find it. But it Arc has more powerful weaponry.
Also it has two rear guns
@@bluerobin2982 I mentioned the tail guns.
Also they had survival gear because they were required to stay out in space for lengths of time
The ARC would have a similar role to the B-Wing/a faster Y-Wing with a rear gunner.Plus the copilot would only be needed for prolonged missions, so really you would only need a pilot and a gunner.
Tbh the rebels fucked up getting rid of the ball gunner of the y wing
That's how I roll with my Rebels in X Wing Miniatures game
I would love to see a video about his dream navy. He can pick one ship from any sci-fi universe to fill out all of the roles to make a successful navy.
The rebels probably didn't have enough personnel to man these fighters at least for widespread use.
Not really it’s 2 people and the the second could literally be anyone it’s just a turret.
there's also the fact that the flight controls in the X-Wing were very similar T-16 Skyhopper, which a lot of civilians most likely knew how to fly
Im gonna go out on a limb and say the rebels used whatever was available...
I love the reasoning behind this video and how it answers the question from a tactics perspective. If I were to ask a follow up question if would probably be would the Arc-170 be more practical for factions with lots of personnel, but not as many capital ships to carry fighters or space to store them? Or would the ARC-170 be viable if you were making a fleet entirely from fighter class/ smaller ships?
What would have happened if UNSC had defeated he covenant forces and captured the forerunner fleet in Halo Wars instead of destroying the ships?. #askeck
...Err, they would have won? Or are you asking about the societal changes?
Because if the UNSC managed to hang on for so long with a technological disadvantage they would have slaughtered the Coveneant with a technological advantage, not much of a question there.
You've got an answer many times over under other videos where you spammed it, man! But I agree with commenter above, society changes after the victory are more interesting.
Who fucking cares...this is a star wars discussion foo
but Eck clearly is also a Halo channel?
@@oh7mak not when somebody spamms a question with an obvious answer for a whole year.
The Arc 170 seems would be great in a 1st wave bombing run to soften defenses for the slower Y-wings. It could even provide cover for the slower Y-wings, the rear gun could have saved some rebel lives.
Well they were better and more heavily armed, so I’d yes. They might have been difficult to get a hold of, though, since the Empire was deconstructing most of their Republic Era ships.
I completely disagree. The ARC-170 May have had better weapons and armor, but was much slower and could have been easily out maneuvered by the superior TIE Fighter and the TIE Intercepter. In a dogfight, you want to be the fastest guy, not the best armed guy.
@@JingleJangle256 ARCs weren't terrible in dogfights but they weren't fully intended for them either. That's why the Republic still employed Torrents and used the Z-95s.
In that case, maybe they could use X-Wings to escort ARC-170s like how the US used Mustangs to escort Flying Fortresses in WWII. The X-Wing escorts would make up for the 170’s lack of maneuverability.
@@JingleJangle256 Speed isn't everything, the TIE fighters was far faster than the X-Wing but was still inferior due to lack fo shields.
Now that I look at x wing and Ark it reminds me of the Y-Wing versions. They make sense as full and stripped down versions of the same thing.but the ship is so stripped down that it flies like a completely different ship.
What would be a good figth would be Emprie vs Unsc or the covenant
He has a video where he determines who would win in all out war between the Empire and Covenant.
Empire all day every day. Halo can't compete on any metric.
Silent Drew well that remains to be seen
@@silentdrew7636 Eck has already done star wars vs halo and he ruled halo wins every time.
@@silentdrew7636 Range is king, SW ships range would look like guys throwing rocks at planes to Halo
On the whole reconnaissance side, I think the X-Wing would be able to perform reconaissance-wise for a similar length of time to the ARC-170, as the astromech might be able to take over from the pilot while he gets shut-eye. That said, the ARC-170 carries an astromech as well.
ARC-170 = TBF Avenger
X-wing = F6F Hellcat
The Hellcat is better in a fight, however the Avenger has much better payload and utility.
@Pommy Pie true lol, minus the twin tails
I've always likened the ARC-170 to the BF-110
ARC-170 is almost identical to the P61 in shape and style. I think it’s hard to argue that it’s not directly based on the P61. Long rounded nose, large radial engines just rear of the cockpit, twin tail, top and rear-mounted turrets.
Not to mention the tandem cockpit layout.
@@Warriorcat49 I was thinking more along the lines of purpose, not really physical appearance. The ARC-170 was a recon/attack aircraft which could also be used to dogfight (in a jam), which is pretty much exactly the purpose of the ARC-170. The P61 was a night fighter, which if I had to equate to anything in Star Wars I'd probably say a stealth fighter of some sort. As far as how it actually looks tho, yeah it's definitely based on the P61.
Ever since I first saw _Star Wars_ I have always thought that the *X-Wing* was based on the *F4F3 Wildcat* and the *Y-Wing* was based on the *SBD Dauntless.* I know a lot of people think that the *T.I.E. Fighter (TIE/ln)* was based on the *A6M Zero* line, but I think it's closer to the *Ki-43 Hayabusa (Oscar).* I actually based that off of role/performance and how many .50 caliber MGs each aircraft mounted.
When it comes to the ARC-170, I agree that it's look is based on the P-61 while it's role/performance is based broadly off of the early WWII twin-engine, multi-seat aircraft that most definitely did *not* live up to their classification as fighters.
Damn, u make some good Star Wars content my dude! Found u through recommendations. I'm a argentinian Star Wars fan myself and I really enjoy ur vids.
The ARC-170 would have been actually a perfect starfighter for the Rebel's starfighter strategy. The only problem is maintenance and the crew.
Arc-170 has proven itself to be very vulnerable to swarming fighters.
So much so, that it brought urgent shift to imperial doctrine. Arc-170s have proven themselves too expensive for that they do even when being manned by clones and supported by full economic might of the old republic. D
Plus, it requires a crew of three, and the Tarkin Doctrine also is one factor why it went out of service.
I love this video when I saw this in the poll I though it was a great video idea I'm so glad it was choosen
No views, but 15 likes. The force is strong with this one.
#AskEck: Hey Eck thanks for all the content but here’s my question. If you were the emperor and had control over the galaxy say 4-5 BBY which should be around Rebels Tv show ending, what would you have done to quickly destroy the newly formed Rebel Alliance and or stop it when you first found out about it?
For all you people in the comments, you really only need 1 essential, maybe 2 at the most that are *essential* to the ARc-170,
Something to consider is that ARC-170 was a known model and the empire would know it's strengths and weaknesses, while the X-Wing was (at least at start of galactic civil war) an unknown due never having been in active service, so would take longer for imperials to adopt their tactics to counter X-Wings then it would take them to counter ARC-170s and if Jedi:Fallen Order is to be believed the Empire scrapped most Clone Wars era hardware anyway so ARC-170s would be hard to find as well.
#AskEck How many planets did the Alliance occupy before Endor
LOVE the visuals in this vid
The rebels couldn’t have used ARC-170s though. After the empire took over they used the republic’s fighters for a short while before scrapping them in favor of TIE fighters.
How could the rebels get their hands on Z-95's in that case? (Since those are Republic era fighters)
*Cough* *cough* Y-wing
@@Kataquan that too
There were thousands of ARCs by the end of the war, wouldn't have been too hard to find some at a scrapyard, Raxus Prime, or a battlefield.
If you found a wrecked Venator you'd probably manage a squadron or 2 of ARCs just from it easy.
The Z-95s and Y-Wings were still in production and widely available on the civilian market though, while the ARC-170 was discontinued after the Clone Wars as far as I know, making for a massive logistical bias in favor of the former two ships and against the latter. (Expanded Universe sources)
I seem to recall that there were indeed small numbers of ARC-170's in the rebel fleets.
They should have just used a Death Star
Great to see some love for the raptor.
One of my favourite, most flexible and practical sci fi ships
"Should the Rebellion use a massive starfighter that requires 3 men to operator?" God no. The ARC-170 is a really poorly designed ship for space superiority.
The rear gunner is one of the key reasons why. It does more harm then good. Its extremely difficult to shoot an enemy craft down from the rear turret but every time you lose a ship you lose an extra man. The X-Wing is literally the perfect all around starfighter. It may not be the best at any one task, but its competitive at those task, and when it is competitive at everything, it propels it to the most valuable craft you can have.
While I agree with you with the notion that losing an arc, you’re losing an extra man; I disagree with your notion that the rear gunner does more harm than good. I will point to real world examples with our strike fighters during world war 2 (United States). They were able to shoot down more maneuverable planes (Japanese zeros) because they were able to utilize a near spherical firing angle. Now give the plane the maneuverability of the ARC, and lower the maneuverability of the zero, and you have a balance shift. The tie fighter is an “energy” fighter and would have a harder time avoiding the pilots and the rear gunners cannons.
Agree completely that the Rebellion should not have used ARC-170s but disagree with your points about the rear gun
@@reihleoberle8702 There is a reason fighters like the P-51 dont have tail gunners, its because it doesnt help them do their job. The extra slot slows the craft down making it less agile. The planes that used them were planes that were not able to do superiority missions like CAS planes and heavy bombers. And even things like the B17 which were armed to the teeth, had massive trouble shooting planes down. They did it, but only rarely. To such a degree they needed dedicated escort fighters like the P-51.
So you have a more expensive craft, that requires more maintenance, while being less effective at its primary role, in return for only a marginal increase in ability to defend itself from behind.
The Rebellion is better off spending a little more money for 2 X-Wings, giving them 2 pilots plus a spare with more offensive capabilities and the ability to support each other.
I disagree. Yes, it's bad for superiority against fighters, but it was never good at that, which is why the Republic used V-Wings.
The Rebellion would have totally benefitted from using the 170 for the more specialized roles it was better suited to do.
Remember, it's not just fighter and bomber work. You have CAS, patrol and recon, interception and interdiction, electronic warfare, etc.
@@Halinspark Ya but we are talking about replacing the X-Wing with them. Not if the Rebellion could find use for them.
It may not be a hard take on how the ships measure up, but I love how the Arc-170 and the T-65 X-wing are portrayed and balanced against each other in Fantasy Flight's 2nd Edition X-wing table top. The did a really good job with the stats of each to really show how similar the two ships are yet have some really distinguishing qualities. You really get a good sense on how they trade weight, firepower, armor, versatility, and agility.
They even allow the Arc-170 to be flown by some Rebel Pilots, specifically Garven Dreis, Ibtisam, Norra Wexley, and Shara Bey, and Rebel Arc-170 has a REALLY cool "Rebel Paint Job".
Would have provided a "Pre-Viewing Title Question Answer", but you've just about said everything I said and more. So...yeah.
TL,DR: The X-Wing was really just a far better craft for how the Alliance operated. The ARC _might_ have had some _minor_ use had the Rebels ever gotten their hands on any, but it was way too complicated, way too resource-intensive, and way to bulky for any major squadrons to form around it.
(For general thematic references, the 3-Crew, 2 fore, 1 aft of the ARC-170 is clearly based upon American WW2 vintage Torpedo Bombers (Devestator, Avenger.)
(using memory of the d6 Star Wars statblocks) It's unsurprising that the X-Wing ends up on top. It's got the intangible benefit of being 20 years newer and more in-date. High Capacity Proton Torpedo Launcher, better Hypderdrive. The real question is: What can the Rebel Alliance do with the ARC-170 frame?
Without a general overhaul/upgrade:
The idea of using them as Sensor Ships is a good one. They could also be used as "tripwire" pickets and scouts. Posted on the reaches of small installations, long range scouting etc. The ability to sleep in shifts and the better life support capabilities makes it a good fit for the roll. And in this, it's not replacing an X-Wing, it's replacing a larger ship. In this roll, it's *saving* manpower etc.
If you're really buying into this concept, you could strip out the rear guns/gunner, stuff in extra life support systems. The Astromech can *probably* make up for the missing third person. Or maybe the Proton Torpedo Launcher for your extra Life support. Sure, you'll need old-style submariners for Crew, but it's a big galaxy, I'm sure they're available.
If you want the ARC-170 in the frontlines of the Galactic War, it *will* need a general overhaul. And then the question remains, to do *what*? Well, it shouldn't try to be the X-Wing or the A-Wing, because it never will. So, it's got to compete with the Y-Wing.
My Refit suggest for the ARC-170 would be to concentrate on improving:
The Hyperdrive (Class 1 is a must)
Heavy Armament (new/improved Proton Torpedo Launchers, see about modifying it to see if it can fit bombs in external, probably fuselage mounted, bays)
Engines (She's never going to be a Dogfighter, so by God make her as fast as hell)
Shields (Again, never going to be a Dogfighter. Dodging cannot be relied upon. So don't!)
Sensors (Make use of that 2 man flight crew!)
Powerplant (somethings needs to power all of this.)
This neglects/sidelines the Laser Armament and maneuverability, which probably could be improved if you put your mind to it, but I think playing to the ARC-170's Strengths is the better play. And obviously, the Refit necessitates the fitting of some more S-Foils, which I suggest are mounted on the middle of the fuselage, between the pilot and rear gunner's positions.
So, the uses of the ARC-170 to the Rebel Alliance:
1) Recon/Picket Ship. As suggested above, but, you know, better.
2) Hit and Fade Bomber: Especially if retro-fitted with a Class 1 Hyperdrive and improved Torpedo Armament, the ARC-170 is an excellent fit for this role. The expanded supply of consumables and the 3-person crew allow for missions to be carried out far further away from home bases or carriers than with Y or X wings. It's power as a fleet-in-being forces the further stretching, or deployment of Imperial Resources, weakening the Empire elsewhere. (The "Threaten Radius") of an ARC-170 now being much larger than an X or Y wing. It would be deployed for hitting small outposts, supply convoys, softer targets etc. Due to the assumed nature of the missions, X or A wing support probably will not be available, so large Starfighter wings prove challenging. The Straight Line speed will be of great utility here, either to launch a Salvo and run like hell, or just run like hell.
3) Anti-Capital Bomber: Like Hit and Fade Bomber above, but because you can't expect Capital Ships to be without Starfighters or Escort ships, this has to be done in conjunction with X or A wings. Again, the general strategy is the same: Burn LIKE HELL, salvo, BURN LIKE HELL, but this time with friendly ships around to help take the heat, so you're not so afraid of TIEs on the tail.
With that in mind (and access to a slightly maniacal engineering team) you could go further. Ditch the Rear Gunner and automate the turret. This probably buys you a little weight and space, especially if you can shrink the support systems due to the reduced load.
OR, ditch the rear gunner, their guns, and their position. Put that would be rear-gunner in an X-Wing. Replace with a dedicated (possibly even elongated) Bomb Bay. More Shields. Whack ANOTHER ENGINE on the back, for the highest possible acceleration and speed.
If you have a scarily maniacal engineering team, made it a modular system, easy to swap in and out.
Seriously, there's a *lot* you can do with an ARC-170. It just can't dogfight, because it was never meant to.
Do you have a favorite SCP article?
It’s been a while since you’ve touched the topic.
#AskEck
Another one planned for next week!
EckhartsLadder awesome!
The Architect and the related tale about it being the true SCP-001 is a real mind trip.
The World At Large (SCP-001) is also really interesting.
@@EckhartsLadder scp 3008 is also really awesome
I also thought that the complex sensor arrays in the nose of the X-wing allowed the fighter to utilize its hyperdrive independently without the guidance of a capital ship, unlike most fighter-class ships sporting a hyperdrive.
This feature was indispensable for the Rebel's hit-and-run tactics; where they needed to rely on delivering the payload before the enemy could react.
Therefore, any fighter that doesn't have similar technology allowing it to independently travel through hyperspace cannot be a suitable replacement for the X-Wing.
#Askeck We’re V19’s a better ship than the V wing
That comparison with ARC-170 to the Raptor from nBSG took me off guard.
No, because they shot green lasers and that is the bad guys laser.
So did the Naboo N-1 (and the Royal Guard's personal blasters were green)
Just a hunch. This may be a joke.
@@ohwhy5998 Shhh, let them figure it out on their own, if they can 🤭
Is that Rebel Assault II I see? Holy crap. Thanks for taking me back to being 7 or 8 years old.
I think the rebel pilots need something that can compete with a tie fighter squad. A arc-170 cannot do those type of missions they were seen being easily destroyed by vulture droids.
But the rebel alliance can easily bring the ship down to two pilots. Like they did with the y-wings. They can be well used for hit and runs better then the x-wings. But for star fighter combat the x-wing is more suited.
The x-wing still is more modern and less complex then a giant scout ship with big guns.
Vulture Droids were also droids, with better firepower and maneuverability than TIEs. Vultures are in fact probably the most deadly fighters in StarWars history.
I wanted to see more of this heavy fighter, i really love the look and the idea of it.
#AskEck
The GAR defense force of Coruscant in Star Wars the Expanded Universe vs SCP-2399.
Just a note: there were later productions or modifications of the ARC-170 only requiring 1 or 2 pilots, so I think they could still use that just as well of it could be acquired
#askeck
What role did the longsword play in the unsc navy? Was lt like a b wing? Or an x wing?
I'm sure the gunner could be swapped out with some droid-slaving control like they did with the Y-Wing
you could have also put the poll on discord
You did a great job on that video dude! And man do I love Arc-170s!
After hearing this I'm pretty sure the ARC-170 has no role or use after the clone wars just based off what was said about, even if it was improved
Use it as a strike fighter. It can suppress enemy defenses for the Y-Wings, and then assist the X-Wings with air combat if your attack forces don't need any extra help. Or you can send it in as an escort for U-Wings to provide some fighter support and lock down a landing zone for drops.
She has lots of potential roles. Main air superiority fighter is just not one of them.
It's a heavy fighter, it can compensate its slightly lower manoeuvrability and speed with its 360° weaponry arcs, in short a fighter killer along a payload to pose a serious threat to larger ships with not so strong PD (corvettes and frigates are probably too much for it, but cruisers and above wouldn't be able to reliably protect themselves)
Also reconnaissance, the thing got good sensors, FTL range, and can stay alone for prolonged periods with the main pilot being able to sleep, you cannot silence it without committing many fighters on it and do so before it jumps away (a droid would do the job perfectly too but hey, it's SW)
I believe if the rebel alliance were to use the ARC-170 it wouldn't be how you'd expect it to be. An example is the Y-wing. When it was introduced in the Clone Wars TV show we saw it had one pilot, top ball gunner with ion cannons, and an astromech droid. When the Rebel got their hands on it it's heavily stripped-down. The gunner seat is gone. A lot of the armor/plating is absent. The rebel alliance would do the same with the ARC. They'd remove the co-pilot seat and its controls, freeing up space. As the ARC-170 was what you'd a heavy fighter with some bombing capabilities think of them like the real-life F-7F-1 Tigercat, Dornier-17 Z-7, and Junkers-88 fighter model. The empty space from the removal of the co-pilot seat could be extra storage and fuel for longer endurance. More ammo to maybe up the anti-capital ship capabilities. Better scanners, Jammers, listening equipment to make its role as a scout ship. If the rebel alliance were to use the ARC it wouldn't be its clone wars version.
"Whats a Zedd-95?"
Zedd-95s dead.
Haha, great reference. Like their music alot.
It was a Pulp Fiction reference... But ya, that works too.
So it is a long range ship with a crew of three. The crew sleep in shifts. The crew are confined to their cockpit for days on end. Can't even get out of their flight suit for that time.
This ship sounds like absolute hell
ARC-170's are the best looking starfighters in sci-fi in my opinion
Agreed. It’s the somewhat bulky yet slim design.
I don't think so. I have always though of ARC-170s as space A-10. Sluggish, well armoured and with heavy weaponry while X-Wing is more versatile.
The arc 170 would be a great y wing escort considering the extra gunner
Or as escorts for landing craft like U-Wings. Just go in, bomb apart a suitable landing zone, knock down some fighters, and use those big guns to suppress enemy air defenses as the U-Wing speeds in, drops their forces, and speeds back out.
That was tried at the beginning of WWI, which _Star Wars_ fighter combat is based off of, with *disastrous* results for the both escorts and the craft they were escorting.
I love the 170. It looks cool, it sounds cool, its independent, and has great utility
#AskEck
*Attempt 656*
Do the Forerunners vs The Imperium of Man Pre Horus Heresy.
Thor's Hammer
You have to put the hashtag at the end or it will end up in spam most likely
@Eye Above All
Reasons?
Canonically, the Rebels did use ARC-170s early in the Galactic Civil War, apparently as a mainstay along with the Y-Wing.
However, they were likely phased out for the reasons you listed:
-Crew hogs
-Not very effective against small fighters
-Y-wings being more effective torpedo bombers
-lack of schematics necessary to replace losses.
Due to being an older model, it was also likely increasingly difficult to upgrade them against increasingly newly advanced enemies, or to find spare parts to damaged craft.
IMO while X-wings were probably still the better choice for a fighter, as a bomber it would probably be better for them than the Y-wing. Faster, heavier, and with a not inconsequential anti-Capitol payload.
@Thelondonbadger I mean you're not wrong
Dude ur videos are the best
Why not both?
Your intro and outro are awesome
Well it would’ve really made sense seeing as it would’ve been a multipurpose ship, bombing and dogfighting exactly what the rebellion needed
Good stuff. Just wanted to add that it seems to me that when the Rebellion/Resistance used the X-wing and Y-wing (for bombing) in concert, the Y-wings seemed to get blown up at extremely high rates. Maybe that’s just my perception, but it always seemed like Y-wings were at an extreme disadvantage. I realize that’s bc they’re bombers and are slower and less maneuverable, but I think they could’ve benefited from finding a ship to replace the Y-wing more so than the X-wing. I guess that’s where the BTL-S3 came in. Having that gunner made a huge difference in protecting the rear of the Y-wing from the more fast and agile Tie.
I for one love these ships, much more than the X-wing, and it's even OP in Gmod :P
The rear Gunner really turns the tide of the battle
Id think they are so generally well rounded that they could fit into any group. Need a bomber? proton torpedoes and (what id think irl ww2 37mm cannons) heavy laser cannons, and rear gunner. Need a Heavy Fighter in a pinch? Although it would have trouble turning with TIEs, it could fill that role very reasonably. Need a bomber escort? It can do that too!
And replacing the engines with similarly sized modern replacements would make it twice as fast as the X-wing. Replacing the heavy cannons with also similarly sized cannons would (referencing ww2 again) effectively give it hs129B3 75mm cannon level distruction. Replacing the 2nd pilot would reduce weight, cost, and manpower requirements while keeping the same functionality.
Its a real shame we probably arent gonna see them in any mainstream way ever. Real potential.
ARC-170 > X-Wing
🙏 Lord forgive me! 😓
Given how well ARC170s did in the Battle of Coruscant and many others throughout the Clone Wars, I suspect that theory wouldn't even outlast your first dogfight with a TIE...nor likely would you! D:
Also, the X-wing shared the same cockpit with the T-16 skyhopper. So that made it really easy for new pilots to get into the T-95 and go. They trained in the easy and affordable T-16 just like Luke did. Which was why he could move from bush pilot to fighter pilot so fast. He already knew 95% of the controls and where to look for information read-outs..