What is a HEMA Expert... and why it doesn't mean shit
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
- Yes, there are experts in HEMA. No, that doesn't mean you should not challenge their claims and hold them under scrutiny. Including those who are "famous", when they spout bullshit.
The article discussed - www.patreon.co...
Great video. We are all human. Who can say about himself that he never talk shit, even when he should know it better!
The video is so entertaining! 'Chuvalry'; a great swipe at Hema nonsense. Boris, pls post your tourney videos soon...
Generally agree. One minor point: An appeal to authority is only a fallacy when it's misused.
For example if you brought in an Olympic fencing instructor to support a point about a HEMA interpretation. He's a fencing expert sure, but not in the relevant field. Another way it can become a fallacy is if the expert is intentionally skewing facts to support their hypothesis. Someone can certainly have a good track record as an expert, but then they have a bias when it comes to certain things. George Silver and his disdain for the rapier come to mind.
But in general you want to use experts armed with facts and logic to support your arguments as much as possible. Otherwise you might seem like you made it all up.
Wouldn't you say it's the logic and facts, not the experts related to them, that you appeal to in this situation? You're not appealing to their status, you're appealing to their results.
@@TheVletHansen That's an abstract way to look at it but it's not really the way it plays out most of the time. For example if I use some statistic out of context in an argument, people will rightly ask where it came from. Who did the study is just as important as what they say. Are they credible and unbiased as possible, or do they have an agenda and are just farming data in a way to make the numbers say what they want?
So to make a more meaningful reference for you argument you are using two elements: 1- the facts/logic themselves, and 2- the credible person who is delivering them.
@@mysticmarbles while it's true that you should verify the study was conducted properly, that's more a matter for the study itself which is once again a matter of the facts. Even a well respected researcher could make mistakes, just as someone who has made mistakes hasn't necessarily made them with the fact in question. Basing your argument off the researcher's history might be a useful heuristic in general, but it's not the end of the story when you're really needing to verify things.
@@TheVletHansen Definitely not the end of the story no. Ultimately you would want to check the facts of their argument. But that's more the task of someone doing in depth research in that field.
I'm talking about someone making a reference in in a general discussion. If you are simply making a youtube video about a certain topic, you might reference an expert in passing. If the point you are highlighting isn't the focus of your video it is acceptable to reference an expert in the field to support the point. People can go look up that expert's work in depth if they really want to. It's not efficient to stop and go into the minute details of every aspect surrounding a topic you are trying to focus on. It's an appeal to authority but it is not a fallacy assuming the authority is legitimate.
It would be great if everyone had the time and expertise to go research every single thing on every topic, but at some point you have to defer to specialization and simply take credible experts at their word unless you have a good reason to doubt it.
Well if someone is an authority i would expect not an appeal to authority but a statement of the relevant facts which an expert should be able to provide. So even then its fishy.
Okay, just a two remarks;
First of all, it´s hardly a scientific article that demands links, sources and substantiation for every statement. It´s a longish post on his patreon were he is trying to get people hyped for his upcoming online class on I.33. He just made a (apparently controversial) statement to raise peoples interests, let us not blow things out of proportions here.
Secondly, you have generously provided a link to the article in question. In Mr. Warzechas post you will find two further links. The first one leads to a post about the time he went to a museum and got to examine four swords from their collection. Said swords happened to be quite long. He then goes on to explain that such sword are underrepresented in modern HEMA. Nowhere in either the original or the secondary post does he make the claim that his idea about sword-length is based on these four swords specifically.
It´s just an example for long arming-swords.
The second link will take you to one of his videos. Not event two minutes in he makes it very clear that his view on sword-length is based on several swords which he has examined over the years, not just four swords as you claim.
The way it is, you are misrepresenting his position. My question would be; have you clicked the second link and watched his video? If not, that´s a great example for what you could do in therms of "better research" before criticizing someone, expert or not. If you are curious about how and why is findings apparently differ from Oakeshotts, I´m sure he is willing to share that information.
I have watched the video, and read all the articles pertaining to the topic.
Have you seen his article on his "perfect sword for I.33", btw?
I am not saying every article requires links and sources, although there are sources quoted on that article.
I am saying that a claim like that requires evidence. I am not sure if you have read the article carefully. He makes the claim, and then links the other article and video to said 4 swords. It is quite clearly the supporting evidence to his claim. So no, I don't think I've misrepresented it at all.
And I am not sure why you think him advertising his paid videos through a clearly and ridiculously false statement (not controversial) actually makes this better. It makes it worse. It means he is using bullshit to sell a product.
Also, either way, what is "several"? One dude claimed 7 swords. 7 is still a miniscule number. Oakeshott, which he quotes, shows dozens of swords. Museum catalogues, freely available online, show hundreds. The claim is false. And if someone pretends to be an expert and makes claims based on a handful of examples, to sell their product, that's unethical trading practice.
@@borislavkrustev8906 I´m not saying that the article is not supporting evidence (as said, it´s an example).
I´m saying that his view is very clearly based on more than 4 swords. Admittedly, "several" (his words) is a vague designation. But when you say that his statement is supported by only 4, despite him claiming something different, than
that´s a misrepresentation, plain and simple. If you want more detailed numbers you would have to ask him (doing research and all that).
Also what kind of a source is "one dude"?
@@RockTea95 I don't think it's clear at all. Then how many?
Sorry, but the burden of proof lies on him, not on me. He has presented 4 swords to support his claim. Maybe 7, if we generously stretch it. Still nowhere near enough to make that claim.
Nice job addressing philosophical fallacies, the flaw in the articles statistical analysis, and thank you for citing YOUR sources. High Respect.
Hey Boris, Chrys/Renos here, good job on the channel, you just got a new subscriber ;-) 'Standard' and 'Average' length of swords, oh what a mess we have to deal with here. Speaking of standards, according to whom and in what kind of environment? Who forced the standards? Did a military general pushed a standard on blade length for 'tactical/technical' reasons in a specific battlefield environment? Was it the State forcing the Citizen carry a blade of very specific standards? Was it the rules of dueling in a city, state or certain culture, that were demanding people face each other with same type and length blades to make it fair? Or the needs of mass production because you cant have every damn soldier 'ordering' a custom sword? They would get whatever was given to them when they joined the army or the expedition. People tend to prefer sword length according to their height. Personally, I am 186cm and I feel more comfortable with a 130cm+ overall length longsword and a 100cm+ overall length side-sword and especially for the longsword, it's not for me the length of the blade, but mostly the length of the grip that would make me prefer an overall longer sword over another. But this just my personal preferences. Then come the modern needs of HEMA competition. Competition is duel and there is a need to diminish advantages and disadvantages in weapon length, so you force people to compete as close as possible to the 'standard' and the 'average'. This whatever standard, by default, will lead people that tend towards the extremes (very short or very tall people) feel uncomfortable using a blade a bit far from their 'personal standards'. But hey, their problem, fair play is never fair :-) And then comes the bigger question. In a HEMA competition environment full of mixed tournaments, whenever men's and women's categories cannot be filled properly, is any kind of 'standard' for both genders fair or even logical, since average heights are different? Are museum sword studies really helpful for us today, since the standards of the 'average sword' and the 'average male soldier' of the medieval and renaissance times, always depending on the city, the needs, the culture, the ethnic differences in body size are so much different from the 'standards' of today? Just throwing sh it I have on my mind now, hoping that you get back with another vid on the matter and to break your balls as always :-P
Yo, mate, glad to have you as a subscriber! Good points all around, let me tell you why I go for what is average length, based on the examples we have in museums - my goal is to understand how all those weapons are used, so eventually, I'll have many of them (I already have a plenty). But when it comes to technical details, there definitely will be differences between a 70 cm blade and a 90 cm blade. So when I say "use average length", I mean specifically for your FIRST sword, when you are starting out, because that will make the pedagogical process easier for everyone.
And I will see you in just a few days, mate :)
@@borislavkrustev8906 Yes, mate, I totally got you on what you said on the video and I agree. My questions are more rhetoric. Of course, we all begin in a class with the 'average' and a 'standard' and when somebody reaches a certain level, then they have a better knowledge to pick the 'custom one' and experiment with the 'shorter' and the longer' blade, or the 'lighter' and the 'heavier'. I have some good free time today, promise, I 'll try to watch as many vids as I can that are uploaded on your channel. Keep up the good work...see you on Saturday morning (it will be a rough day by all means).
Why this has to be taught nowadays is beyond me,its well done sir
The problem with HEMA is that "experts" can't exist, because no modern self-declard "swordsman" will ever have any practical experience. It's like a swimmer who trains his entire life with dry methods how to swim but who will never ever set foot into an actual body of water.
Nah. Of course experts can exists - HEMA is absolutely not the same thing they did in the 15th or 16th C.
Yes, you can't have an expert in what Fiore or Liechtenauer did centuries ago. But no one in HEMA actually does what they did.
HEMA is a modern combat sport and martial art and you can absolutely have people who have expertise in that.
@@borislavkrustev8906 That's a very good point! HEMA is a modern sport, it's actually vastly more modern than sports fencing, which I find rather ironic. My problem is that HEMA can never become what they want it to be: a deadly martial art which was designed for combat (I believe that medieval martial arts are forever lost, only parts of it have been documented, we for example have barely any techniques/tactics against multiple opponents, we mostly have fencing books which deal with the fight of man against man). Have you read Burkart's publication about the problems of a martial arts reconstruction?
@@Shiresgammai
I don't think anyone serious in HEMA is actually trying to turn it into a deadly martial art designed for combat. That is mostly the goal of neckbeards training from their backyard.
Although I would say not all historical traditions were that either. Historical violence took many forms.
As for the traditions being lost - that is a very complex question. I don't think it is entirely true - especially in regards to some traditions there is enough data to reconstruct a modern martial art, which although different, can have the core of fundamental principles of the historical art it is based on.
Yes, I've read Burkart, his comparison to historical music reconstruction is enlightening.
@@borislavkrustev8906 It's great, isn't it? His comparison is great! As for HEMA, here's the big crux: these martial arts were developed under the constant pressure of a violent death. What we're doing today - the reconstructions - is mostly rooted in sports fencing. I'm actually surprised that most HEMA fencers don't see the irony in the whole thing.
@@ShiresgammaiBe careful not to go in the other extreme. First of all, most martial arts are not developed with a strategic goal, they develop naturally through use. Second, many systems in the past have indications that they were used for sport fencing or socially limited levels of violence (like using only cuts, just the flat, or very complicated grapples to show dominance). Especially in the core HEMA period - 15th C onwards - the majority of people who trained martial arts of any sort probably never used them against actual violence.
An expert not only can cite sources, but cite so many of them that it can become overwhelming to make a single conclusion lol
That can also be a tactic, cite a ton of mediocre sources that don´t really prove the point being made.
Everything I have read or watched of Roland Warzecha's was dubious at best. From his claim that medieval people pranced about on their toes to using I.33 to recreate Viking Era sword and shield fighting . . .
I don´t know, using I.33 seems the best way to do it, lacking any other source.
@@PeregrinTintenfish It is like using the blueprints of a 1957 Chevy Bel Air to recreate a 1920 Ford Model T . . .
@@bubbagump2341 Is it really? Besides, historians do that kind of thing all the time. Granted, it isn't without it's problems and Roland should probably qualify his statements more. Still, what would you suggest as an alternative?
@@PeregrinTintenfish Yes, yes it really is! As an alternative to trying to use I.33 to reconstruct Viking Era sword and shield, I would suggest looking at still living martial traditions where they used large organic shields, such as Zulu stick fighting or Tuareg martial arts.
Sorry, I find your argument inconsistent. You argue that the I.33 isn't appropriate because of the time difference, but then suggest something modern. Also, the pictures I have found of Zulu stick fighting had them with buckler sized shields.
Have you tried doing anything with a viking round shield or a buckler?
I use a longsword 86cm of blade, very fun tu use but it is so hard to fight the 95-100 cm standard that I can't recommend it but to do Fiore short play it's awesome
The standart right now is actually around 100-1005 cm for feders, so you will suffer :P But you know, plenty of longswords are 86 cm of blade, it was a very popular size.
@@borislavkrustev8906 1005cm is one long ass blade =P
@@BernasLL Heey, it's a typo. But there actually is an arming sword with a 103 cm blade even :)
Longswords of around 110-115 cm-ish overall are very common depending on decade and location. But these little allround swords seem to have been very common overall.
Giant feders of 125,130 and above are not that representing of what they often try to represent. I feel.
@@AGermanFencer Oh, no, there are longswords just as big as the typical feder. Especially in the 16th C.
I give thumb just for title, didn't seen video yet
I was like "Oh youre going afte Roland W., thats gonna be interesting how you would tackle his bulletpr....oh okay, its about that armingswordlength thing... yeah. no. thats bs. true." :D
Ahahaha, what do you think is bulletproof....
His methodology mostly.
@@AGermanFencer Yeah, about that... expect a video on the future on that :D
@@borislavkrustev8906 Looking forward to it!
"Sword in the Age of Chuvalry"
Damn it, I thought I checked the graphics a second time :D Well, Chuvalric times were quite awesome too.
The real problem is people calling themselves instructors when they the dont even know how to cut properly, picking on longsword, they dont understand the postures, footwork or anything else relying on dodgy interpretations which have been pulled directly out of their ass. Lets be clear people, anyone calling themselves a HEMA instructor is trying to teach you something they dont know. This unpopular opinion comes from my years in HEMA and the years i spent in a real 1000 year old historical eastern european martial art and research into all the living traditions i could find. The result is i know how the primary cuts of german longsword are actually done, then the 5 master strikes were easy to discover. They work beautifully against HEMA though i usually just hit them in the head with a opening vertical strike because their bad counterstrikes can't protect them. I enjoy watching their hands get higher and higher in cutting trying not to get hit, maybe one day they'll abandon cutting from the shoulder with their hands low in front of their body's and flicking the point forward in the cut making it as fast as they possibly can since they dont understand thats not actually where they are supposed to be cutting from or how the primary cuts are performed, but really is just a place you can start from to develop power in the cut moving to the hands over the head into vom tag posture and learn that these are not elbow but rather shoulder strikes and that the elbow is not pulled down in cutting but rather is pushed up and out keeping the arms high. Knowing how to hold the sword and the proper longpoint position of the hands is necessary as well, but untill then I'll just keep whacking them on their heads.
I make no claims to being an instructor
Just a note - there is no "real 1000 year old eastern european martial art". No such thing exists with proper historical proof.
But I'd lvoe to see video of all your claimed mastery of the sword.
@@Grauenwolf The question here is - on the basis of what is said soke changing techniques? His latest duel? Or the duel he witnessed last week?
Modern soke should realize they don't really have the authority to change things created by people with actual experience and understanding of fighting.
Which is also why today many traditional Eastern sword arts with centuries of history don't produce people who can actually fence, but HEMA does.
Wait... None of this has anything to do with saying... Hema Experts are SHIT...
ALSO.. the guy said... 80 to 90...
That is not bullshit... That is correct... The average is that... It isn't a BULLSHIT, claim as you say
Did you actually read the article? He said 85-95 cm are the standard. That is not correct at all.
@@borislavkrustev8906 your gonna say.. all this bad shit... Over 5 centimeters...
You do realize how messed up that is... Like.. you were calling them out like they. Were saying nothing but false everything... And you are making up your mind.. over AN AVERAGE... That isn't EXACTLY the same.
Ok. Well you just proved to me you are far worse than these... Shity.. Experts
@@strydyrhellzrydyr1345 If you don't realize there is a huge difference between "85-95 cm are standard" and the actual average of ~80 cm, then you are not really competent to discuss this topic. And in need of a statistics course.
Yeah Jesus "Warzecha" Christ has a really bizarre following. His amazing new stepping technique, his insistance that the common guards used "even when ignorant in the art of fencing, make use of these seven guards" must be performed in extremely specific ways, his "I33 uses two perspectives in the illustrations above and below the waist" so incidentally its all just rapier and generations of new hemaists religiously following his commandments.
The two perspective thing at least was a fun idea to ponder...