@@sebastiansirvas1530Carl Marx is modern communist but I'm trying to research it to its absolute core - Where did Marx get his ideas ? Do you have any information you can point me to possibly please ?
@@LightLivingEst80Research him to its absolute truth? You would have to read him and understand him. Probably unlike the guy in the video. Research as well communists before him. His type of communism was only one that appeared after many decades of socialist thought.
A lot of people seem to forget that you can still be opinionated outside of ignorance. Everyone seems to believe “well if you knew what I knew you’d agree”
I mean… that is how knowledge works… When you know, you know. But the problem is blind dead dogma that does not actually seek knowledge but claims to be knowledge
@@danilopaes4058because one might realize that in any situation, you can never know everything, and that someone indeed may actually know more than you.
@@ryanash4681 Of course, but the situation Rift seem to be talking about and complaining is people believe that they know something other don't... Oh saying it out loud makes it clearer, he's right, I thought he was complaining people where believing they were right, that wouldn't make sense
Does this mean that One Piece fandom also has its roots in Gnosticism? Fans of One Piece will yell you that you just need to read one hundred chapters to start understanding it, and if you don't like it is because you need to read more.
No, because people can have wrong opinions and backwards tastes. I think most of us one piece fans can acknowledge this and pity you for your incorrect views knowing they're in good faith.
In gnosticism man is not a god man is a divine essence, a spark of divinity but itself not divinity. Not all sects see OT god as the devil, most just see him as an imperfect creator trying to imitate perfection.
Gnosticism isn’t a sect of Christianity. It is a family of loosely related sects of Christianity that existed over more than a thousand years of history. Some of them held beliefs similar to those you describe in this short, but even those would probably vehemently disagree with your take on their beliefs. With all of that said, while there may be very loose surface level similarities between some Gnostic sects and Communist ideology, I don’t see any historical link between these two wildly different faiths. Frankly, the ideas you present in this short could probably be applied to any religion. “You aren’t a (insert religious faith) only because you haven’t read enough of our holy book” is a very common argument amongst faithful people. While I may agree that Communism could be classified as a religion (depending on the definition used for “religion”), I don’t see any reason to draw parallels between Communism and a specific sect of any one religion.
Came here to say this. Dude is probably pushing back against the couple of guys who spoke for gnosticism in that other short cause it triggered his reddit christian side 😂 I have experienced far more "u too stoopid to grasp the philosophical roots of christianity bro" rhetoric from mainstream Christians (catholics in particular) than any modern gnostic. And wouldn't the whole "man as god" thing be far more applicable to anti-authoritarian standpoints rather than a communist one? Hence why most modern gnostics lean lib-left or lib-right in terms of ideas.
Your argument falls apart when you consider that all mainstream Christians believe that some combination of faith and good works are all that is necessary for salvation, so you could be illiterate but believe in Jesus and be a good person and achieve salvation. The Gnostics believed that special esoteric knowledge was necessary for salvation and not just any special esoteric knowledge. The special esoteric knowledge that was contained in THEIR WRITINGS that THEY MONOPOLIZED. Irenaeus describes their beliefs as they are described here. Furthermore, the vision of the world espoused by communism is religious in nature. Sowell wrote that there's two primary visions of the world, the unconstrained (idealistic) vision and the constrained (tragic) vision, and that everybody lies somewhere on the spectrum between. Communism has a constrained vision of the world as it is now due to the evils of capitalism, but an unconstrained vision of the world when they get full control of society and form a utopia where nobody wants for anything and social classes are abolished. Abrahamic religions have a constrained vision of the world as it is now due to the fall of man and the sinful nature of man, but an unconstrained vision of the world to come which is ruled by God and is perfect and eternal, where nobody wants for anything forever.
Nice to see others who know this is an extremely simplistic take on gnosticism. He is knowledgeable about economic doctrines and history, specifically western civilization. However, his knowledge about current real world ideologies, cultures, and religions, is lacking. I would consider this to be more important in understanding current affairs than reading authors who are only regurgitating what others have written and putting their own spin on it.
@@Vmac1394 This is why I do not like the term Gnostic. The people we refer to as Gnostic never referred to themselves as such. There isn’t just one Gnostic group with a clear set of beliefs, even if you are looking at one group we like to label as Gnostic, the Valentinians, there was a good amount of variation between the texts. Gnostic is a term we created to lump together a bunch of groups that have nothing but a few things in common, all those groups have radically different things to say on the nature of the world and the human condition.
From what I know beforehand it makes sense. Gnostics and Communists believe the same guiding principle, that humans are the ultimate being they just have to "awaken" to the realization and that we are perfectable (become like god essentially). I don't have the full words to explain so obviously I don't fully understand it myself but I get the gist of what he's getting at. Hope this helps!
@@saektalt in a previous short he tried to equate the Ancient Roman Empire to socialism...because, taxes????? Idk. It just seems like more right wing drivel imo
@@jonnyd9351 but why put out content that doesn't actually come to a conclusion or point? I get that its a short, but for all of the words he used, he said nothing.
@@madmanvarietyshow9605 but those through lines can be found within any religious, social or political group or identity." Because this person doesn't have the knowledge that I know of______________, they are actually wrong." I can say this about Catholics and Capitalism. Muslims and Mercantilim. Jewish people and Fudalism. Etc. Without actually drawing a direct correlation between Gnosticism and Communism, this just becomes more conservative drivel.
@@LoganLS0 those two are feel like they finally pieced the puzzple that various channels from history to philosophy arranged for me, i felt that something is weirdly shady here and this piece of thought explains many missing parts. Also tik history talking about antisemitism of marx can properly explain many things about marx's followers.
at least gnosticism is an ancient school of thought with sparse original texts... communism is alive and still being worked on and he still manages to misunderstand it thoroughly
@@alex_brg7680 well first off he's conflating christian gnosticism with the general tendency of gnosticism. gnosticism is an attitude towards reality, not a set core of beliefs. Gnosticists generally believe that the material world was created by a Demiurge (who isn't evil), and this demiurge is an imperfect being that created an imperfect world, based on his Ideas of what it should be. Gnosticists reject the material world as worthy or revering, instead focusing on themselves and reaching, through reasoning and logic, the Ideas that the Demiurge had, that had been given to him by the actual God: a perfect being. This all is very similar to platonism ontology and epistemology, and it's a "rational" thinking i.e our senses deceive us, so only our reason can reach truths. Communism understanding, however, is purely material, based on marx and engel's historic materialism and Hegels dialectic thought. For communists "ideas", "thoughts", "feels", "logic" isn't what move the world and change things, it's material changes in technology and organization of society that do. Gnosticism and Communism are simply nothing alike. The only similarity they have is that communism is a threat to the capitalist system and gnosticism was a threat to the church's authority. However, by whatifalthist's logic 60's-70's punk culture, the black panthers or even anti-vietnam hippies have gnostic roots
Pretty sure he understands Communism. I've read everything Marx wrote and know people who are communist and follow many outspoken communists, and he is pretty spot on with his analysis
WhatIfAltHist literally said "I've read thousands of pages of critics misunderstanding communism, yet every time I confront an actual communist, they say that's not what communism is."
Neither of these ideologies is inherently related to Gnosticism or the pursuit of hidden knowledge and spiritual purity. Gnosticism is an ancient religious and philosophical movement that emerged in the early Christian era. It focuses on the pursuit of mystical knowledge and the belief in a divine spark within each individual that can be awakened through spiritual practice. Not some class-struggle totalitarianism shit In cultural absolutism.
This is just vastly incorrect. First, there's no unified "Gnosticism". It's just a bad umbrella term for a Christian way of thinking that has a few things in common, such as the theme of learning the hidden truth/knowledge ("gnosis"), the idea of a material, lesser God and the true, immaterial, intangible force that is the real God, among other things. First, the lesser god who created the material world is NOT the Devil, Satan, Lucifer or whatever. He's just that, a lesser god, who is sometimes portrayed as evil (Sethians, Mandeans, Manicheists), other times, as just plain ignorant of his insignificance (Valentinians). And he had no intentions with mankind when he created the material world - he just created it because "why the fuck not". Also, man is NOT "God". Some sects believe that a select portion of mankind has a "sprinkle" of divinity imbued in us (Mandeanists, Valentinians), whereas other interpretations don't talk about this at all (Sethians). The only thing you got right is the concept that Gnostics believed they possessed a knowledge seldom discussed about, "secret" knowledge even, in Greek, "gnosis", or knowledge. They, however, called themselves Christians, because that's what they were - Christians. They were not "Gnostics", they were not Valentinians, Sethians or whatever, they were merely Christians who had a very different cosmological and christological interpretation of the whole thing. For those interested in learning more, I highly recommend ReligionForBreakfast and LetsTalkReligion. How disappointing and vain was this comparison. Holy shit. It leaves me wondering - is the remainder of your content equally shallow, poorly researched, and plain wrong?
As a vehement anti-collectivist and occasional gnostic, thank you. Sad when otherwise respectable creators end up in this useless fart sniffing territory
Yeah Whatifalthist definitely fumbled the bag on this one. I wonder if it was on purpose; if he's deliberately condensing these ideas down to make gnosicism look bad. It's been rather common amongst reactionaries to be blaming Gnosticism for all the bad things that have been happening in society lately because society at large isn't as religious as it used to be. Just a new strawman scapegoat.
Thank you. When i heard that the Vatican slewed off all the gnostics in mass till there was none left made me jump on being a gnostic. They will do anything to hide what's real.
@@aardvark870Alan Watts on Jesus. Jesus achieved gnosis. Jesus is not God. Romans 2 29: don't cut anything off and don't seek validation from others. All religions are corrupted to a degree.
This is ridiculous. When debating anyone who disagrees about the fundamentals of your beliefs, it's common that they assume you just don't know what you're talking about. This is not a fundamentally gnostic notion. In fact, in this video, you misrepresent both communism and gnosticism. Communism is an exoteric system, not an esoteric one. And there are no historical ties between gnosticism and communism. In fact, there are actually several ideological ties between mainline Christianity and Marxism. This theory comes close to the Christian superstitious belief that all heresies must stem from the same source. This is not true.
I’m pretty sure we only learned about Gnosticism (from one of its sources) in 1945, far after communism took root. So unless Marx had a direct link to the mandeans, I doubt it’s that easy a conclusion to say one spout after the ideas of other. Similarities? Sure, that’s all ideologies though when you look for em.
I think its fair to analyze that Marxism is highly dualistic, and most dualistic systems in Western Philosophy have been influenced by the dualism of Gnosticism--but I think the idea about hidden knowledge is debatable. Marxist thought is literally meant to be easily understandable and digested--Marx wrote the Manifesto so it could be read by peasants. There is not element of "hidden knowledge" in original Marxism.
But he advanced the idea of "class consciousness" i.e. anyone who disagrees with him either has a material interest in doing so, or doesn't understand their own interest and is under the spell of capitalist ideology. Hannah Arendt correctly pointed out that this self-immunizing argument is the basis of all totalitarian systems.
@@user-cz8gi2om3n Hit the nail on the head. Every Marxist Theorist, From Lenin to Fred Hampton, makes a deal about "political consciousness" and they connect it in various way with various things. Mao made a deal about focusing on propaganda as to raise consciousness in order to conduct the revolution, while Che used violence to raise consciousness. Its legit if you arent on my side, your apart of the problem or ignorant.
Gnosticism often centres around secret knowledge but can also - as in the case of Marxism - centre on knowledge so 'obvious' that dissent can only be the result of bad faith and malice.
@@user-cz8gi2om3n capitalism too belives those not working day and night or who arent rich are either bad capitalists / plain lazy! However has capitalism ever lead to totalitarianism?
@@bruhaspati560 the difference is that in classical liberalism, there is a recognition that someone can criticize it in full sincerity, and be sincerely mistaken. Marx claimed that anyone who disagrees with him always has ulterior motives for doing so.
I disagree. I'm gnostic & heavily despise Communism. Just because they think humans are general good doesn't connect the 2 at all. They aren't thinking on a spiritual level at all. Communist base their ideology purely in the physical thinking everything can be solved by the sciences, while gnostism is the opposite being a deep spirituality, an understanding that we are all divine but lost & looking to reconnect with God & therefore our true nature.
The social engineering aspects of Communism link pretty well to Gnosticism. Communists believe that reality is flawed and needs to be “perfected”, whereas Gnostics believe that the physical world is corrupt and needs to be escaped. Also, Communism arose from the problems with Capitalism, whereas Gnosticism arose from the theological problem of evil. Similar roots. I’m quite interested in Gnosticism as well, and I can see links between it and Communism, even if I disagree with James Lindsey on his assertion that Communism is Gnostic. Communism is trash tier though, and it can’t compare to Gnosticism.
The Cathars lived a commune lifestyle. They were not communists in the sense everyone here is assuming. The modern definition of Communist doesn't fit the Cathars. See my comment. I'm not repeating myself
Right? This entire piece makes no sense. There are communists who became that due to logical reasoning, others with emotional reasoning. people are different. We can't group everyone the same way.
It looks like what he is trying to do with all these shorts is show that communism is a religion by comparing it to religions, but this shows how flawed that statement is since he can’t find any strong connections between the two.
Yeah this was a huge miss lol he couldn’t be more wrong. Communism is necessarily materialistic whereas Gnosticism is…literally the opposite? Being heavily linked to neo-platonic idealism, the whole point of the ancient Gnostic movement was to teach its students spiritual freedom…meanwhile the emerging Catholic Church tried over and over to stamp them out specifically because they wouldn’t toe the doctrinal line.
This is a completely vapid and meaningless argument. 1. Gnosticim is a blanket term for a collection of belief systems from the ancient world. They generally preach renunciation of the world, and that liberation occurs through the development of the soul allowing you to pierce the veil of the material world. 2. Marxism is dialectical materialism that organizes history in stages. Its entire focus is on the material world and how to organize human society in a way that gives the workers true ownership of their labor. Sure, marxism has a host of problems and i dont agree with the ideal of communism but to say Marxism is like Gnosticism because someone told you that you didnt understand marxism, well maybe they were right
Regarding your statement on Christianity and the relationship between Man and God, i'd like to state that the relationship you explain is only true in *Protestant Christianity* .
Yeah they are probably only really related because of the sharing of contemporary ideas that meant all these popular psychopaths and genocidal idiologes read the same type of books but came to their own crazy conclusions.
The social engineering aspects of Communism link pretty well to Gnosticism. Communists believe that reality is flawed and needs to be “perfected”, whereas Gnostics believe that the physical world is corrupt and needs to be escaped.
The social engineering aspects of Communism link pretty well to Gnosticism. Communists believe that reality is flawed and needs to be “perfected”, whereas Gnostics believe that the physical world is corrupt and needs to be escaped. Also, Communism arose from the problems with Capitalism, whereas Gnosticism arose from the theological problem of evil. Similar roots. I’m quite interested in Gnosticism as well, and I can see links between it and Communism, even if I disagree with James Lindsey on his assertion that Communism is Gnostic. Communism is trash tier though, and it can’t compare to Gnosticism.
@@the11382both are rooted in platonic ideals. Gnosticism's ideal "forms" exist outside of the physical world the same way "real communism" being the ideal forms of the managerial centralized state which happens when there's power vaccums left in the revolution. Both have the thesis/antithesis/synthesis aspect to it to arrive to what would be the ideal outcome (becoming/returning to the one or nous, proletarian ruled earth getting rid of the "demiurge" like ruling classes). There are some similarities but I wouldn't outright call Marx or even Hegel Gnostics, since most of what was known as first hand sources was discovered in the 1940s.
Marx literally quotes Hermeneutics. He also copied Hegel whole sale and just turned his position upside down. Hegel was literally a gnostic, an alchemist and a Hermetisist.
@@casematecardinal I mean, my point is that he doesn't do a good enough job providing explanation how communism has roots in Gnosticism. In fact, he doesn't provide even a weak connection. He just says well, proponents of communism tell me I don't understand it... And people of this rare religious cult think people don't understand them so there you go
@@music79075 that's a good point my man, but your missing my point. The guy in this video didn't say any of what you said. The things he said didn't connect his ideas together in a coherent way.
Against Destiny’s point I wouldn’t say that women integrating more masculine traits into themselves has led to bad outcomes. Sure more women are going to college but anxiety and depression rates among women are through the roof. Ultimately what can be classified as ‘progress’ should probably be based on whether people are happier and healthier.
Almost every group believes that if everyone saw the true workings of their ideology that they would agree. You’re not really connecting two things together more than you are showing a common theme
Ueah but...... Marx was a Jew the became secularized so of course there has to be a connection between the 19th century political philosopher and a small religious sect in the 4th centery.
Study history long enough and you become Curtis Yarvin. Lindsay is useful but naive, his project to resucitate liberalism is doomed to failure because he doesnt understand how modern leftism is the inevitable product of liberalism.
@@silverhawkscape2677You're just admitting that the only experts you trust are ones that engage in careful doublethink, stopping themselves from delving into inconvenient truths.
@@rell0223that's conservatives' excuse to value their own possessions more than yes, government-based, so it can be broad, i.e., not to only recipients based on individual givers' bias, charity
@@jameswilkerson4412 you've missed the entire point of scripture if that is your take. Its not about the monetary value as the value of sacrifice for the sake of others. The poor woman who gave a penny gave far more than the rich men who gave extravagant amounts of money. Your take is no different than that of the men who thought they could buy their way into God's kingdom.
@@dango6266 and the solution to oppression is more oppression at the hand of the government? Authoritarian ideologies all revolve around creating a golden calf out of the state. Communism is no different.
Well Gnosticism is a really complicated subject, what you described was a specific type of Gnosticism which I think was called Marcionism (i’m on the toilet rn so i can’t fact check that) so there is a very wide range of beliefs with those weirdos
Yes but even though not all Gnostics go as far as to say that the god of old testament was specifically the devil, there's still these similar concepts in most Gnostic Christianity that Jesus of Nazarene was the one to bring Gnosis to humans and, yes, to "liberate us from the god of old testament", and that we all have the knowledge in ourselves and have to search it, etc... It's not only a specific type of Gnosticism really
Really and you "Know", the irony your statement is helerios considering that gnostics believe they have hidden knowledge. I really shouldn't be telling you this knowledge but I know you know you are full of shit.
Remember that the gnostics went to church and considered themselves Christians when they were around. It is a more accurate statement to say that the Gnostics swap the Jewish God of the old testament and claim he is the devil, but that although the liberating new God has achieved influence through Jesus and Christianity, most Christians misunderstand his message and borrow too much from the Old Testament (which Gnostics often didn't want to include in their canon at all). It's a bit up for debate whether the Devil still reigns over the world from a Gnostic perspective (the Cathars thought so) or if God reigns, but Christians are misled from true Christanity. It's inaccurate to claim Gnostics think other Christians worship the devil, however.
Understanding the extent of Gnosticism is the greatest rabbit hole that I have ever been down. Although I initially learned of it in my 7th grade theology/history class, further inspection of the ancient heresy has allowed me to understand the driving forces of evils such as communism, nazism, wokeism and much much more.
'That's why you can't argue with communists, they'll say you don't understand and need to read more, and you'll agree once you understand' is pretty much any comeback to any ideology, capitalism included. Disagree with an ideology, that's fine, don't present a straw man then say you've read 'thousands of pages' which is why you should be taken as an authority, or some such rubbish.
He never quotes any socilaist authors as far as I know and he simplifies all of Marx's points as "the rich eat the poor and thats about it". I'm almost certain hes only read the manifesto and nothing else. But of course I can't tell him that because then I'll be just as bad as a conspiracy theorist.
Not all Gnostics believed in a physical Yaldabaoth. But rather was symbolic for your own ego or Ignorance. And Gnosticism is older than Christianity and the Torah. Fun fact Jews don't believe in the devil that belief came later. Jesus called Yahweh the devil who the Gnosticis believed was Yaldabaoth. John 8.44 Jesus said to the Pharises that worshipped Yahweh you worship your father who is the devil and he was a murder and liar since the beginning. Gnosticism was strictly against violence while the Catholics and Orthodox went around killing them. The first Christian bible was written by Marcion a Gnostic Christian and the Gospel of Thomas Most likely predates the bible According to modern scholars. Fun fact all religions change and Yahweh had a wife and a dad name Elyon the most high
Wasn't the united states basically founded by people who essentially believed in enlightenment masonic ideas who were also deists and free masons obssesed with knowledge? I am not seeing the through line here unless you're going to make the point which shoild be clear that Christianity inherently has gnostic elements as it does stoic and platonist thinking. The case for gnosticism is easily found in Paul's writings, Corinthians literally states the readers of the old covenant are blind that the God of this world is Satan and that the "rulers" wouldn't of crucified Jesus if they had wisdom. Hell, he even insults the idea of signs and worldly wisdom. 1 Corinthians 2:7-8 1 Corinthians 1:18-22 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 2 Corinthians 3:12-14
If you truly think that this is a case for gnosticism, then I feel sorry for you. He is obviously referring to the Jews who don't accept Jesus as the Messiah. And the word wisdom wasn't invented by Gnostics. It is a normal word and concept. The difference is, that Gnostics believe in a "hidden" knowledge, that is only accessible to a small elite. Christianity on the other hand is accessible to everyone. Everyone is able to see the truth in Christ. It is the opposite.
I'm not sure if you mean that gnostics and commies are working together, or if you just think they're very similar. In any case I just think you need to talk to some better and brighter communists man. Anyone who thinks you should believe what they believe, because they believe it, isn't worth talking to in my experience.
He says that SJWs are communists and that the democratic party is a way for modern communists to express themselves. I dont think hes ever talked to better communists.
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
it can be argued that communism came from Christianity in general; both 'regular' orthodox lived in communistic communities and gnostic varities - ultimately it is a Jewish idea that we can still find in the Kibbutzim living in Israel.
Gnosticism is Christianity the Sethians called themselves Christian as did all gnostics. Gnosticism was only applied to them by their enemies and latter scholars. Most academics refrain from the term all together now.
@@shanquelmondecesions4525 I’ll just recommend a great book like I always do. “Not In His Image” author John Lamb Lash. VERY informative. And he claims Gnostics were VERY anti Abrahamic religions. Stay safe 👍🏻✌🏼
@DuhYaThink Alright I'm not familiar woth this person, but I'd recommend reading the Secret Book of John found in the Nag Hammadi Library and Berlin Codex it's the best place to start to have a textual understanding of gnostic mythology. It's also important to read the later writings of Valentinus. You can find all these texts from scholarly sources. I personally would recommend The Gnostic Scriptures translated by Bentley Layton and revised by David Brakke and the James M. Robinson edition of the Nag Hammadi Library.
I think the problem with understanding communism is not about lack of information but about missing the forest for the trees. Funny that this can be also said about religion, but it could be said about every field of knowledge
Sorry this failed to convince me Communism has those roots in Gnosticism when you can point to other groups of thought had similar claims of gaining knowledge if you join them. Why point the finger at Gnosticism specifically?
He’s hitting on some Voegelin stuff but is missing the in-between points connecting it that Voegelin uses. Political gnosticism has been around for some time
@@gideonmele1556Yeah, he has this problem where he doesn't realize that people can't fill in the blanks of his thought process. I've had the same problem before, and I didn't even realize when I was doing it.
Sad to see how many people don’t realize God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Without Jesus you will face the same God you claim isn’t just. Who are we to call Just and unjust. HE IS GOD. Maybe our lives filled with sun have made it harder for us to see. And no I’m not going to provide scripture for every one of you who want to prove Christianity wrong. I’m strong in my faith and I wish you the best in finding The Lord and Savior but I’ve realized that most of you aren’t looking to find God, only to torment those who believe with endless questions they even when provided the answers you don’t listen to. Again I hope you pick up a Bible and give it a read past your immediate uncomfortably, a lot of you are unhappy and looking for something different and charging your life isn’t always “comfortable” and it often challenges what you think you already “know”. God bless✝️💪
I doubt all these commentators have ever lived in Jesus' entourage, Paris Commune, Lenin's Russia or Mao's China, but speaking out of secondary emotion, so to speak (I grew up in China 60s-90s)
When you disagree with them, they'll say you didn't understand their idea, because if you had you would've agreed with them. Since you didn't agree, you didn't understand. You can only understand if you agree.
Funniest thing is that he does the exact thing he claims they do. Communists can't tell him "you misunderstood Marx" because now he can just point this this claim and be completely protected. Even though he DOES misunderstand Marx. Communist don't think you'll be "saved" by reading theory, they want to have an educated discussion on the subject. If you read theory and still arent a communist, great! You can now have educated discussions beyond repeating the exact same claims everyone else has.
The Bible isn’t about one god, it’s about many gods, the Elohim. Yahweh was assigned to be the god of the Israelites. Other Elohim were assigned to neighboring nations. Read the books, the Naked Bible and Gods of the Bible by Mauro Biglino, to learn the Hebrew names of these gods, the Elohim. Read what happened to those who disobeyed Yahweh. Do we really want to worship such a tyrant?
This is Eric Voegelin's thesis. But he argued that all modern thought from the Renaissance onward takes this form. Marxism, along with fascism is just the most advanced and degenerate form of it. Liberalism does this too.
@@the11382 he called it Gnostic, though it can be debated how much he accuracy knew about ancient Gnosticism. In his view the abandonment of natural ends as in Aristotle was tantamount to saying that nature is the enemy of humanity and must be conquered and overcome.
Being a communist and watching content like this is gold. @whatifalthistory literally just said the thing. "Communism is something i don't understand, and I'm afraid of it." Like bro is out here really giving the most cookie cutter NPC answer a rightoit could give.
His argument was that people who say “if only you understood then you would know I am right” are fallacious, but if anything I hear that argument coming more from capitalists than I do socialists. His previous shorts on it were literally “communists are wrong because they don’t know what I know about human nature”.
@@BeautifulGreen252 the short is literally "If you don't understand something, make a bad faith argument"...also, how has National Socialism historically worked out?
@@erisstewart4236 lmfao imagine claiming you did your research on Marx without realizing that he said "The history of all hitherto existing human society is the history of class struggles.”
I doubt it. If anyone is teaching you falsely it would be the one who made himself a god by teaching you to punish the innocent while the guilty goes unpunished and is forgiven. Is that what you teach your children? If your child breaks the rules do you punish his innocent sibling while the guilty child goes unpunished and is forgiven? If your child goes to a school and shoots innocent people, since all I see is about guns and school shootings on air, are you as the parent going to request to the judge that your child go free unpunished and be forgiven while one of his uninvolved classmates goes to death row? Does that even make sense to you? Should the innocent pay for the guilty? That is not fair to those who aren't guilty.
The one time I disagree with you and it’s not cause I hate you man but you not really representing gnostics in a fair light every mystery school promised the same thing and we don’t call them all communist because of it
This is a correct assessment insofar as both are satanic (or promethean if you want to portray it in a positive light) but after that they dont have much in common. You need to work on your shorts they dont work well out of context
I think the link is a similar in regards to the means of its themes, like he said. Communism is very much like a relgion unto how it conducts itself. However, Communism is the escape from the evils of capitalistic society comprised of haves and have nots. While Gnosticism is the escape from the evils of a corrupt physical reality. Both assume that the people are under some sort of spell because arent aware of it, or are directly working as an advocate for what they deem as evil. This dualistic absolutism is a parallel.
The missing puzzle here is the huge historical gap between the two and the absence of any meaningful influence of gnosticism in Marx. Meanwhile you could make a stronger argument that the tendency to sanctify Marx's truths as "immortal science" while operating in a framework of orthodoxy could be a product of Christian culture and expectations overall
@@plebulus from what I've heard it's not just any other religion, it's a very parasitical and harmful one. TIK history, RUclipsr, makes a good argument for why Hitler was a gnostic instead of a pagan or christian. Check it out and come to your own conclusion
Eh, I mean the Gnostics who held to the specific positon that the God of the Old Testament was different and opposed to the God of the Old Testament were only a couple of several different gnostic groups. Though the idea of of Communism being a 'riff' off of gnosticism given its attachment to German Idealism is considerably plausible
Do the dates line up though? Were the Nag Hammadi texts discovered when Marx gathered his ideas? I don’t see how you can say definitely that Gnosticism led to communism. Also, bear in mind that the gnostics back then had myriad beliefs, like the Christians of today, so I do think this is too broad an explanation for the teachings of every sect. The maleficent sub-god of the gnostics isn’t the same devil as most would think; the Demiurge is supposed to be a unique entity itself, that isn’t necessarily a God-God but an ignorant prideful illusionist. So he’s not Lucifer or even really a fallen Angel. It seems to me that many gnostic sects simply didn’t agree with the Old Testament God, believing instead on a higher consciousness beyond the wrathful YHWH. Meta-analytically, it seems to me that we really don’t know which was the original Christianism, Gnosticism or Pauline. Gnostics believe in one God, but one without an ego. It eminates from there to other sub-creator-creations kinda like Brahman, from what I understand or Iru Illuvatar, I suppose.
But capitalism is better! you guys don't get it becuase you've never actually stopped to think or see the true wonders it brings for everyone and ourselves, only once you've come to see the valuable fruits of our work and investment you'll be able to see it.
I am Jesus. I am also a Marxist-Leninist. We all seek the right path to the destination on the left. I'm glad you've all found this road by yourselves.
How did we associate gnostic beliefs with communism?
I have no idea. Wtf
They are related. Plenty of material about it. Also, look up the name of the draft of the communist manifesto (and Marx's poetry).
@@sebastiansirvas1530Carl Marx is modern communist but I'm trying to research it to its absolute core - Where did Marx get his ideas ? Do you have any information you can point me to possibly please ?
Well. They are pretty much the same m8
@@LightLivingEst80Research him to its absolute truth? You would have to read him and understand him. Probably unlike the guy in the video. Research as well communists before him. His type of communism was only one that appeared after many decades of socialist thought.
A lot of people seem to forget that you can still be opinionated outside of ignorance. Everyone seems to believe “well if you knew what I knew you’d agree”
why would anyone believe otherwise?
I mean… that is how knowledge works…
When you know, you know.
But the problem is blind dead dogma that does not actually seek knowledge but claims to be knowledge
@@danilopaes4058because one might realize that in any situation, you can never know everything, and that someone indeed may actually know more than you.
Seems like a ton of propaganda against communism. Endless in fact. All I see are rich powerful communist countries. Or ones destroyed by the west
@@ryanash4681 Of course, but the situation Rift seem to be talking about and complaining is people believe that they know something other don't... Oh saying it out loud makes it clearer, he's right, I thought he was complaining people where believing they were right, that wouldn't make sense
Does this mean that One Piece fandom also has its roots in Gnosticism? Fans of One Piece will yell you that you just need to read one hundred chapters to start understanding it, and if you don't like it is because you need to read more.
Possibly. 😅
😂😂
No, because people can have wrong opinions and backwards tastes. I think most of us one piece fans can acknowledge this and pity you for your incorrect views knowing they're in good faith.
@@mojus2890 oh boohoo poor us thanks for your pity
@@lcdream4213 I imagine Mojus is joking. I at least hope so.
In gnosticism man is not a god man is a divine essence, a spark of divinity but itself not divinity. Not all sects see OT god as the devil, most just see him as an imperfect creator trying to imitate perfection.
That's not gnosticism though. True gnosticism is. "Yeah prolly? but actually idk lol"
@@durschfalltv7505 It sounds like you're referring to agnosticism
@@TheArchevil yes
Don't gnostics or some sects believe that the physical world is evil made by the evil god or demiurge.
@@durschfalltv7505 well then it's a different thing
Chief woke up and went, "yeah, fuck communism," godspeed.
God bless
Based
Yeah, F- Marxism/Communism. This divisive idiotlogy, is one of the the worst ideology ever created, on par with National Socialism (Nazism).
Now that’s Epic.
Everybody should do this every day
Gnosticism isn’t a sect of Christianity. It is a family of loosely related sects of Christianity that existed over more than a thousand years of history. Some of them held beliefs similar to those you describe in this short, but even those would probably vehemently disagree with your take on their beliefs.
With all of that said, while there may be very loose surface level similarities between some Gnostic sects and Communist ideology, I don’t see any historical link between these two wildly different faiths. Frankly, the ideas you present in this short could probably be applied to any religion. “You aren’t a (insert religious faith) only because you haven’t read enough of our holy book” is a very common argument amongst faithful people. While I may agree that Communism could be classified as a religion (depending on the definition used for “religion”), I don’t see any reason to draw parallels between Communism and a specific sect of any one religion.
Came here to say this. Dude is probably pushing back against the couple of guys who spoke for gnosticism in that other short cause it triggered his reddit christian side 😂
I have experienced far more "u too stoopid to grasp the philosophical roots of christianity bro" rhetoric from mainstream Christians (catholics in particular) than any modern gnostic. And wouldn't the whole "man as god" thing be far more applicable to anti-authoritarian standpoints rather than a communist one? Hence why most modern gnostics lean lib-left or lib-right in terms of ideas.
Your argument falls apart when you consider that all mainstream Christians believe that some combination of faith and good works are all that is necessary for salvation, so you could be illiterate but believe in Jesus and be a good person and achieve salvation. The Gnostics believed that special esoteric knowledge was necessary for salvation and not just any special esoteric knowledge. The special esoteric knowledge that was contained in THEIR WRITINGS that THEY MONOPOLIZED. Irenaeus describes their beliefs as they are described here.
Furthermore, the vision of the world espoused by communism is religious in nature. Sowell wrote that there's two primary visions of the world, the unconstrained (idealistic) vision and the constrained (tragic) vision, and that everybody lies somewhere on the spectrum between. Communism has a constrained vision of the world as it is now due to the evils of capitalism, but an unconstrained vision of the world when they get full control of society and form a utopia where nobody wants for anything and social classes are abolished. Abrahamic religions have a constrained vision of the world as it is now due to the fall of man and the sinful nature of man, but an unconstrained vision of the world to come which is ruled by God and is perfect and eternal, where nobody wants for anything forever.
Nice to see others who know this is an extremely simplistic take on gnosticism. He is knowledgeable about economic doctrines and history, specifically western civilization. However, his knowledge about current real world ideologies, cultures, and religions, is lacking. I would consider this to be more important in understanding current affairs than reading authors who are only regurgitating what others have written and putting their own spin on it.
no you're overcomplicating to obscure the point
@@Vmac1394 This is why I do not like the term Gnostic. The people we refer to as Gnostic never referred to themselves as such. There isn’t just one Gnostic group with a clear set of beliefs, even if you are looking at one group we like to label as Gnostic, the Valentinians, there was a good amount of variation between the texts. Gnostic is a term we created to lump together a bunch of groups that have nothing but a few things in common, all those groups have radically different things to say on the nature of the world and the human condition.
Bro...what are you even saying? Im legit baffled at how you're trying to draw connections through two completely unrelated items.
From what I know beforehand it makes sense.
Gnostics and Communists believe the same guiding principle, that humans are the ultimate being they just have to "awaken" to the realization and that we are perfectable (become like god essentially).
I don't have the full words to explain so obviously I don't fully understand it myself but I get the gist of what he's getting at. Hope this helps!
Bro this is a short, of course you’re baffled because you don’t have much background knowledge and he didn’t provide his defence in the video😂.
@@saektalt in a previous short he tried to equate the Ancient Roman Empire to socialism...because, taxes?????
Idk. It just seems like more right wing drivel imo
@@jonnyd9351 but why put out content that doesn't actually come to a conclusion or point? I get that its a short, but for all of the words he used, he said nothing.
@@madmanvarietyshow9605 but those through lines can be found within any religious, social or political group or identity." Because this person doesn't have the knowledge that I know of______________, they are actually wrong." I can say this about Catholics and Capitalism. Muslims and Mercantilim. Jewish people and Fudalism. Etc. Without actually drawing a direct correlation between Gnosticism and Communism, this just becomes more conservative drivel.
Make a vid on gnosticism and it's root in modern ideologies
James Lindsay and Tik History have done so.
Or on Chelsea Football Club's fall
sorry, I cant resist saying that looking at your profile picture
@@LoganLS0 those two are feel like they finally pieced the puzzple that various channels from history to philosophy arranged for me, i felt that something is weirdly shady here and this piece of thought explains many missing parts. Also tik history talking about antisemitism of marx can properly explain many things about marx's followers.
That would be an epic video
This Communism vid is gonna be dope.
That’s what I’m saying
You understood Gnosticism even less than Communism - that's something
at least gnosticism is an ancient school of thought with sparse original texts... communism is alive and still being worked on and he still manages to misunderstand it thoroughly
Explain what he said wrong about gnosticism
@@alex_brg7680 well first off he's conflating christian gnosticism with the general tendency of gnosticism. gnosticism is an attitude towards reality, not a set core of beliefs. Gnosticists generally believe that the material world was created by a Demiurge (who isn't evil), and this demiurge is an imperfect being that created an imperfect world, based on his Ideas of what it should be. Gnosticists reject the material world as worthy or revering, instead focusing on themselves and reaching, through reasoning and logic, the Ideas that the Demiurge had, that had been given to him by the actual God: a perfect being.
This all is very similar to platonism ontology and epistemology, and it's a "rational" thinking i.e our senses deceive us, so only our reason can reach truths.
Communism understanding, however, is purely material, based on marx and engel's historic materialism and Hegels dialectic thought. For communists "ideas", "thoughts", "feels", "logic" isn't what move the world and change things, it's material changes in technology and organization of society that do.
Gnosticism and Communism are simply nothing alike. The only similarity they have is that communism is a threat to the capitalist system and gnosticism was a threat to the church's authority.
However, by whatifalthist's logic 60's-70's punk culture, the black panthers or even anti-vietnam hippies have gnostic roots
The irony here is something
Pretty sure he understands Communism. I've read everything Marx wrote and know people who are communist and follow many outspoken communists, and he is pretty spot on with his analysis
Isn't Gnosticism a purely spiritualist ideology and Marxism a pure materialist ideology?
As above, so below
Marxism is material manifestation of gnosticism
WhatIfAltHist literally said "I've read thousands of pages of critics misunderstanding communism, yet every time I confront an actual communist, they say that's not what communism is."
How is the next video coming along? No rush of course. 😊
No time. Got to make endless anti communist shorts
@@brendonaldson8056 time well spent imh
@@dvirnevo6669 Based.
Neither of these ideologies is inherently related to Gnosticism or the pursuit of hidden knowledge and spiritual purity.
Gnosticism is an ancient religious and philosophical movement that emerged in the early Christian era. It focuses on the pursuit of mystical knowledge and the belief in a divine spark within each individual that can be awakened through spiritual practice. Not some class-struggle totalitarianism shit In cultural absolutism.
This is just vastly incorrect.
First, there's no unified "Gnosticism". It's just a bad umbrella term for a Christian way of thinking that has a few things in common, such as the theme of learning the hidden truth/knowledge ("gnosis"), the idea of a material, lesser God and the true, immaterial, intangible force that is the real God, among other things.
First, the lesser god who created the material world is NOT the Devil, Satan, Lucifer or whatever. He's just that, a lesser god, who is sometimes portrayed as evil (Sethians, Mandeans, Manicheists), other times, as just plain ignorant of his insignificance (Valentinians). And he had no intentions with mankind when he created the material world - he just created it because "why the fuck not".
Also, man is NOT "God". Some sects believe that a select portion of mankind has a "sprinkle" of divinity imbued in us (Mandeanists, Valentinians), whereas other interpretations don't talk about this at all (Sethians).
The only thing you got right is the concept that Gnostics believed they possessed a knowledge seldom discussed about, "secret" knowledge even, in Greek, "gnosis", or knowledge. They, however, called themselves Christians, because that's what they were - Christians. They were not "Gnostics", they were not Valentinians, Sethians or whatever, they were merely Christians who had a very different cosmological and christological interpretation of the whole thing.
For those interested in learning more, I highly recommend ReligionForBreakfast and LetsTalkReligion.
How disappointing and vain was this comparison. Holy shit. It leaves me wondering - is the remainder of your content equally shallow, poorly researched, and plain wrong?
As a vehement anti-collectivist and occasional gnostic, thank you.
Sad when otherwise respectable creators end up in this useless fart sniffing territory
Yeah Whatifalthist definitely fumbled the bag on this one.
I wonder if it was on purpose; if he's deliberately condensing these ideas down to make gnosicism look bad. It's been rather common amongst reactionaries to be blaming Gnosticism for all the bad things that have been happening in society lately because society at large isn't as religious as it used to be. Just a new strawman scapegoat.
Thank you. When i heard that the Vatican slewed off all the gnostics in mass till there was none left made me jump on being a gnostic. They will do anything to hide what's real.
Yup after what the fake church did to them. I joined them. Gnostics forever
I'm a right to think man is not a god like said but just a part of The God? According to Gnostic beliefs?
I tell this to people and they seem to fail to comprehend
They just need to read more about gnosticism, if they did they would comprehend.
@@Liethen what would I need to read?
@@aardvark870 ....not sure if the joke went over your head or if you are trying to role play something here.....
@@aardvark870Alan Watts on Jesus. Jesus achieved gnosis. Jesus is not God. Romans 2 29: don't cut anything off and don't seek validation from others. All religions are corrupted to a degree.
@@costamz3440English isn't your first language, is it.
This is ridiculous.
When debating anyone who disagrees about the fundamentals of your beliefs, it's common that they assume you just don't know what you're talking about. This is not a fundamentally gnostic notion.
In fact, in this video, you misrepresent both communism and gnosticism. Communism is an exoteric system, not an esoteric one. And there are no historical ties between gnosticism and communism. In fact, there are actually several ideological ties between mainline Christianity and Marxism.
This theory comes close to the Christian superstitious belief that all heresies must stem from the same source. This is not true.
I’m pretty sure we only learned about Gnosticism (from one of its sources) in 1945, far after communism took root. So unless Marx had a direct link to the mandeans, I doubt it’s that easy a conclusion to say one spout after the ideas of other. Similarities? Sure, that’s all ideologies though when you look for em.
"And there are no historical ties between gnosticism and communism."
There are, through Hegel.
I agree it's ridiculous to equate the two though.
I think its fair to analyze that Marxism is highly dualistic, and most dualistic systems in Western Philosophy have been influenced by the dualism of Gnosticism--but I think the idea about hidden knowledge is debatable. Marxist thought is literally meant to be easily understandable and digested--Marx wrote the Manifesto so it could be read by peasants. There is not element of "hidden knowledge" in original Marxism.
But he advanced the idea of "class consciousness" i.e. anyone who disagrees with him either has a material interest in doing so, or doesn't understand their own interest and is under the spell of capitalist ideology. Hannah Arendt correctly pointed out that this self-immunizing argument is the basis of all totalitarian systems.
@@user-cz8gi2om3n Hit the nail on the head. Every Marxist Theorist, From Lenin to Fred Hampton, makes a deal about "political consciousness" and they connect it in various way with various things. Mao made a deal about focusing on propaganda as to raise consciousness in order to conduct the revolution, while Che used violence to raise consciousness. Its legit if you arent on my side, your apart of the problem or ignorant.
Gnosticism often centres around secret knowledge but can also - as in the case of Marxism - centre on knowledge so 'obvious' that dissent can only be the result of bad faith and malice.
@@user-cz8gi2om3n capitalism too belives those not working day and night or who arent rich are either bad capitalists / plain lazy!
However has capitalism ever lead to totalitarianism?
@@bruhaspati560 the difference is that in classical liberalism, there is a recognition that someone can criticize it in full sincerity, and be sincerely mistaken. Marx claimed that anyone who disagrees with him always has ulterior motives for doing so.
I disagree. I'm gnostic & heavily despise Communism. Just because they think humans are general good doesn't connect the 2 at all. They aren't thinking on a spiritual level at all. Communist base their ideology purely in the physical thinking everything can be solved by the sciences, while gnostism is the opposite being a deep spirituality, an understanding that we are all divine but lost & looking to reconnect with God & therefore our true nature.
The social engineering aspects of Communism link pretty well to Gnosticism.
Communists believe that reality is flawed and needs to be “perfected”, whereas Gnostics believe that the physical world is corrupt and needs to be escaped.
Also, Communism arose from the problems with Capitalism, whereas Gnosticism arose from the theological problem of evil. Similar roots.
I’m quite interested in Gnosticism as well, and I can see links between it and Communism, even if I disagree with James Lindsey on his assertion that Communism is Gnostic.
Communism is trash tier though, and it can’t compare to Gnosticism.
Dialectic materialism was practically founded by early gnostics, right?
@@jonnyd9351nope
The Cathars lived a commune lifestyle.
They were not communists in the sense everyone here is assuming.
The modern definition of Communist doesn't fit the Cathars. See my comment. I'm not repeating myself
@@HappyHermittif they even existed.
“But wait, there’s more”
- Gnosticism
Is this a joke?! The similarity is that they are both impossible to convince?!
Right? This entire piece makes no sense. There are communists who became that due to logical reasoning, others with emotional reasoning. people are different. We can't group everyone the same way.
It looks like what he is trying to do with all these shorts is show that communism is a religion by comparing it to religions, but this shows how flawed that statement is since he can’t find any strong connections between the two.
Yeah this was a huge miss lol he couldn’t be more wrong. Communism is necessarily materialistic whereas Gnosticism is…literally the opposite? Being heavily linked to neo-platonic idealism, the whole point of the ancient Gnostic movement was to teach its students spiritual freedom…meanwhile the emerging Catholic Church tried over and over to stamp them out specifically because they wouldn’t toe the doctrinal line.
@@erisstewart4236 Even less a historical link between the two.
well… there have been major communist revolutions done by millions of ppl so obv its not impossible to convince
This is a completely vapid and meaningless argument.
1. Gnosticim is a blanket term for a collection of belief systems from the ancient world. They generally preach renunciation of the world, and that liberation occurs through the development of the soul allowing you to pierce the veil of the material world.
2. Marxism is dialectical materialism that organizes history in stages. Its entire focus is on the material world and how to organize human society in a way that gives the workers true ownership of their labor. Sure, marxism has a host of problems and i dont agree with the ideal of communism but to say Marxism is like Gnosticism because someone told you that you didnt understand marxism, well maybe they were right
Regarding your statement on Christianity and the relationship between Man and God, i'd like to state that the relationship you explain is only true in *Protestant Christianity* .
I hate Gnosticism and communism but they are both completely unrelated. This conclusion is very forced
Yeah they are probably only really related because of the sharing of contemporary ideas that meant all these popular psychopaths and genocidal idiologes read the same type of books but came to their own crazy conclusions.
The social engineering aspects of Communism link pretty well to Gnosticism.
Communists believe that reality is flawed and needs to be “perfected”, whereas Gnostics believe that the physical world is corrupt and needs to be escaped.
The social engineering aspects of Communism link pretty well to Gnosticism.
Communists believe that reality is flawed and needs to be “perfected”, whereas Gnostics believe that the physical world is corrupt and needs to be escaped.
Also, Communism arose from the problems with Capitalism, whereas Gnosticism arose from the theological problem of evil. Similar roots.
I’m quite interested in Gnosticism as well, and I can see links between it and Communism, even if I disagree with James Lindsey on his assertion that Communism is Gnostic.
Communism is trash tier though, and it can’t compare to Gnosticism.
It's because Hagel (and most western philosophers) was gnostics
How are the roots similar?
@@the11382both are rooted in platonic ideals. Gnosticism's ideal "forms" exist outside of the physical world the same way "real communism" being the ideal forms of the managerial centralized state which happens when there's power vaccums left in the revolution. Both have the thesis/antithesis/synthesis aspect to it to arrive to what would be the ideal outcome (becoming/returning to the one or nous, proletarian ruled earth getting rid of the "demiurge" like ruling classes). There are some similarities but I wouldn't outright call Marx or even Hegel Gnostics, since most of what was known as first hand sources was discovered in the 1940s.
Indeed.
What happens when automation renders all labor moot?
How will capitalism continue? Shall we all starve surrounded by plenty?
This is a cringe take for sure. Whatever your opinions on communism, communism doesn't have roots in Gnosticism.
explain.
Marx literally quotes Hermeneutics.
He also copied Hegel whole sale and just turned his position upside down.
Hegel was literally a gnostic, an alchemist and a Hermetisist.
@@casematecardinal I mean, my point is that he doesn't do a good enough job providing explanation how communism has roots in Gnosticism. In fact, he doesn't provide even a weak connection. He just says well, proponents of communism tell me I don't understand it... And people of this rare religious cult think people don't understand them so there you go
@@music79075 what makes you say that about Hegel?
@@music79075 that's a good point my man, but your missing my point. The guy in this video didn't say any of what you said. The things he said didn't connect his ideas together in a coherent way.
Wtf you could say the same of libertarians or objectivists. There's zero relation between communists and gnosticism
completely false on both accounts
This is a mischaracterisation. The names/roles aren’t swapped, they are completely different in structure.
Against Destiny’s point I wouldn’t say that women integrating more masculine traits into themselves has led to bad outcomes. Sure more women are going to college but anxiety and depression rates among women are through the roof. Ultimately what can be classified as ‘progress’ should probably be based on whether people are happier and healthier.
Yes
"i wouldn't say [there are] bad outcomes" check your writing boy
women going to university might not be the cause of that because men aren’t doing too much better in that department
Understanding of mental health has allowed for more people to learn about their problems.
Correlation and causation
Almost every group believes that if everyone saw the true workings of their ideology that they would agree. You’re not really connecting two things together more than you are showing a common theme
TikHistory has a couple of good videos on Hitler being a Gnostic.
And hitler was a marxist before becoming a facist so its cheks out
I was about to say it !
He absolutely was; a Blavatsky scholar
Beat me to it. Nice to see others thay have seen his videos.
Hitler, the infamous Communist
That's absurd. There's no link between the two and no one ever claim so.
Ueah but...... Marx was a Jew the became secularized so of course there has to be a connection between the 19th century political philosopher and a small religious sect in the 4th centery.
@@dango6266 I'm assuming that's scarcism 🙂
@@msdm83 🙂
Study history long enough and you become James Lindsay.
Study history long enough and you become Curtis Yarvin. Lindsay is useful but naive, his project to resucitate liberalism is doomed to failure because he doesnt understand how modern leftism is the inevitable product of liberalism.
Thankfully the Average person doesn't study history that long. Even serious historians know when to step away.
@@silverhawkscape2677You're just admitting that the only experts you trust are ones that engage in careful doublethink, stopping themselves from delving into inconvenient truths.
@@silverhawkscape2677the average person can't tell you what happened in WW1
Imagine reading thousands of pages on the subject, but not a single page from marx himself. Nutty.
He has read marx marx sucks anyway
Jesus said give your wealth to the poor and down trodden, he sounded like a commie.
By choice, thus making a sacrifice of yourself to help others. Not compelled by the barrel of a gun, which is theft.
@@rell0223that's conservatives' excuse to value their own possessions more than yes, government-based, so it can be broad, i.e., not to only recipients based on individual givers' bias, charity
@@jameswilkerson4412 you've missed the entire point of scripture if that is your take. Its not about the monetary value as the value of sacrifice for the sake of others. The poor woman who gave a penny gave far more than the rich men who gave extravagant amounts of money.
Your take is no different than that of the men who thought they could buy their way into God's kingdom.
@@rell0223 he also said to fight oppression wherever you may find it. Then he was driven out of the town.
@@dango6266 and the solution to oppression is more oppression at the hand of the government? Authoritarian ideologies all revolve around creating a golden calf out of the state. Communism is no different.
Yes the similarities between them are eerie AF.
Well Gnosticism is a really complicated subject, what you described was a specific type of Gnosticism which I think was called Marcionism (i’m on the toilet rn so i can’t fact check that) so there is a very wide range of beliefs with those weirdos
Hope you had a healthy movement.
Yes but even though not all Gnostics go as far as to say that the god of old testament was specifically the devil, there's still these similar concepts in most Gnostic Christianity that Jesus of Nazarene was the one to bring Gnosis to humans and, yes, to "liberate us from the god of old testament", and that we all have the knowledge in ourselves and have to search it, etc... It's not only a specific type of Gnosticism really
Oh, it sounds like you got this straight from James Lindsay. A whole video on the Gnostics (especially the early Christian ones) would be very cool.
Nobody here seems to know what Gnosticism or communism even is. Seriously y'all need to do some research before spouting off this nonsense.
Really and you "Know", the irony your statement is helerios considering that gnostics believe they have hidden knowledge. I really shouldn't be telling you this knowledge but I know you know you are full of shit.
Remember that the gnostics went to church and considered themselves Christians when they were around. It is a more accurate statement to say that the Gnostics swap the Jewish God of the old testament and claim he is the devil, but that although the liberating new God has achieved influence through Jesus and Christianity, most Christians misunderstand his message and borrow too much from the Old Testament (which Gnostics often didn't want to include in their canon at all). It's a bit up for debate whether the Devil still reigns over the world from a Gnostic perspective (the Cathars thought so) or if God reigns, but Christians are misled from true Christanity. It's inaccurate to claim Gnostics think other Christians worship the devil, however.
Understanding the extent of Gnosticism is the greatest rabbit hole that I have ever been down. Although I initially learned of it in my 7th grade theology/history class, further inspection of the ancient heresy has allowed me to understand the driving forces of evils such as communism, nazism, wokeism and much much more.
Gnosticism wasn’t a unified movement, rather a variety of different ones with similar themes.
Be careful Rudyard. This may sound odd but I went down this path a while ago amd it's very dark. I pray you come out the other side unharmed.
Lol it's almost like you're telling a prophecy
@@malvarezv97 side effect of following christian author, we ourself become prophetic, and i am not even christian but tribal hindu
Oh, you must mean... Them. They who cannot be named.
i have no idea what is going on in this thread.
Elaborate please? At least for my sake
'That's why you can't argue with communists, they'll say you don't understand and need to read more, and you'll agree once you understand' is pretty much any comeback to any ideology, capitalism included. Disagree with an ideology, that's fine, don't present a straw man then say you've read 'thousands of pages' which is why you should be taken as an authority, or some such rubbish.
He never quotes any socilaist authors as far as I know and he simplifies all of Marx's points as "the rich eat the poor and thats about it". I'm almost certain hes only read the manifesto and nothing else.
But of course I can't tell him that because then I'll be just as bad as a conspiracy theorist.
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil.
Not all Gnostics believed in a physical Yaldabaoth. But rather was symbolic for your own ego or Ignorance. And Gnosticism is older than Christianity and the Torah. Fun fact Jews don't believe in the devil that belief came later. Jesus called Yahweh the devil who the Gnosticis believed was Yaldabaoth. John 8.44 Jesus said to the Pharises that worshipped Yahweh you worship your father who is the devil and he was a murder and liar since the beginning. Gnosticism was strictly against violence while the Catholics and Orthodox went around killing them. The first Christian bible was written by Marcion a Gnostic Christian and the Gospel of Thomas Most likely predates the bible According to modern scholars. Fun fact all religions change and Yahweh had a wife and a dad name Elyon the most high
Not all Gnostics believed the demiurge was evil either. I study Gnosticism in fact I am a Gnostic priest come to my channel
Why even make a comparison between the two? What does it add?
Well you haven’t seen his whole video
It's pretty interesting
understanding.
Wasn't the united states basically founded by people who essentially believed in enlightenment masonic ideas who were also deists and free masons obssesed with knowledge?
I am not seeing the through line here unless you're going to make the point which shoild be clear that Christianity inherently has gnostic elements as it does stoic and platonist thinking.
The case for gnosticism is easily found in Paul's writings, Corinthians literally states the readers of the old covenant are blind that the God of this world is Satan and that the "rulers" wouldn't of crucified Jesus if they had wisdom. Hell, he even insults the idea of signs and worldly wisdom.
1 Corinthians 2:7-8
1 Corinthians 1:18-22
2 Corinthians 4:3-4
2 Corinthians 3:12-14
If you truly think that this is a case for gnosticism, then I feel sorry for you. He is obviously referring to the Jews who don't accept Jesus as the Messiah. And the word wisdom wasn't invented by Gnostics. It is a normal word and concept. The difference is, that Gnostics believe in a "hidden" knowledge, that is only accessible to a small elite. Christianity on the other hand is accessible to everyone. Everyone is able to see the truth in Christ. It is the opposite.
Thy have exactly one thing in common and even that is kind of a stretch to beginn with. What are you on about?
This is a short, he didn’t provide his defense yet😂
"read thousands of pages"
Doubt (x)
I'm not sure if you mean that gnostics and commies are working together, or if you just think they're very similar. In any case I just think you need to talk to some better and brighter communists man. Anyone who thinks you should believe what they believe, because they believe it, isn't worth talking to in my experience.
Very similar
He says that SJWs are communists and that the democratic party is a way for modern communists to express themselves.
I dont think hes ever talked to better communists.
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
A lot of words for saying "people say that you don't understand something when you disagree with them". Wow
it can be argued that communism came from Christianity in general; both 'regular' orthodox lived in communistic communities and gnostic varities - ultimately it is a Jewish idea that we can still find in the Kibbutzim living in Israel.
And Gnosticism outdates Christianity by a LOT of time.
Gnosticism is Christianity the Sethians called themselves Christian as did all gnostics. Gnosticism was only applied to them by their enemies and latter scholars. Most academics refrain from the term all together now.
@@shanquelmondecesions4525 I’ll just recommend a great book like I always do. “Not In His Image” author John Lamb Lash. VERY informative. And he claims Gnostics were VERY anti Abrahamic religions. Stay safe 👍🏻✌🏼
@DuhYaThink Alright I'm not familiar woth this person, but I'd recommend reading the Secret Book of John found in the Nag Hammadi Library and Berlin Codex it's the best place to start to have a textual understanding of gnostic mythology. It's also important to read the later writings of Valentinus. You can find all these texts from scholarly sources. I personally would recommend The Gnostic Scriptures translated by Bentley Layton and revised by David Brakke and the James M. Robinson edition of the Nag Hammadi Library.
@DuhYaThink I'll be honest, your book seems fallacious. It's obviously biased, and John Lamb Lash seems to be no better than a televangelist.
@@shanquelmondecesions4525 You read it that quick?
I think the problem with understanding communism is not about lack of information but about missing the forest for the trees. Funny that this can be also said about religion, but it could be said about every field of knowledge
You're echoing James Lindsay and TIKhistory. If you actually studied gnosticism itself you wouldn't need to hop on the bandwagon.
The root of communism is the primitive urge of distribution of resources, is an urge that other social animals have to share resources equally.
the fact that you think that communism has roots to Gnosticism show that you don't understand marx
How does one understand Marx?
Sorry this failed to convince me Communism has those roots in Gnosticism when you can point to other groups of thought had similar claims of gaining knowledge if you join them. Why point the finger at Gnosticism specifically?
likely because he's a Christian and Christians hate Gnosticism.
I'm a Gnostic Priest and this guy has no idea 😂
@@spirituallevelofbeing7308 it’s amazing where paranoia and lack of historical knowledge takes people’s minds.
THERE ARE 2000 LANGUAGES IN THE WORLD AND BRO CHOSE TO SPEAK NONSENSE 🔥 🔥 🔥 🔥 🔥 🔥 🔥 🔥
As a former Christian this is actually really interesting and how I perceived the bible for the last months before I became atheist/agnostic
Would love a video on Voegelins Order and History. He is so underrated
Wild misunderstanding of "gnosticism" (such as it is). Have you read anything at all about it beyond one wikipedia page?
That’s literally the worst comparison there is
He just doesn’t understand. If he studied communism more he would get it.
He’s hitting on some Voegelin stuff but is missing the in-between points connecting it that Voegelin uses. Political gnosticism has been around for some time
@@gideonmele1556Yeah, he has this problem where he doesn't realize that people can't fill in the blanks of his thought process. I've had the same problem before, and I didn't even realize when I was doing it.
Bruuuh lol wot, how does this connect to communism
That's WIAH for you.
This is the same guy that said Canada would collapse BEFORE the United States.
Man is not God. Certainly not trapped in these bags of flesh.
YOU'RE WRONG!
REND THE FLESH FROM BONE. FREE THE SKELETON.
The God of the Old Testament is like a successful communist nation: neither exists.
Sad to see how many people don’t realize God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Without Jesus you will face the same God you claim isn’t just. Who are we to call Just and unjust. HE IS GOD. Maybe our lives filled with sun have made it harder for us to see.
And no I’m not going to provide scripture for every one of you who want to prove Christianity wrong. I’m strong in my faith and I wish you the best in finding The Lord and Savior but I’ve realized that most of you aren’t looking to find God, only to torment those who believe with endless questions they even when provided the answers you don’t listen to. Again I hope you pick up a Bible and give it a read past your immediate uncomfortably, a lot of you are unhappy and looking for something different and charging your life isn’t always “comfortable” and it often challenges what you think you already “know”. God bless✝️💪
@@Will34117 but he isn’t? It seems god has some character arc over time. Unless he’s done this all before, then it’s a character circle.
@@asiblingproduction Time doesn’t exist for God. He is the same yesterday as he is now and will be tomorrow.
I doubt all these commentators have ever lived in Jesus' entourage, Paris Commune, Lenin's Russia or Mao's China, but speaking out of secondary emotion, so to speak (I grew up in China 60s-90s)
When you disagree with them, they'll say you didn't understand their idea, because if you had you would've agreed with them. Since you didn't agree, you didn't understand. You can only understand if you agree.
Funniest thing is that he does the exact thing he claims they do. Communists can't tell him "you misunderstood Marx" because now he can just point this this claim and be completely protected. Even though he DOES misunderstand Marx.
Communist don't think you'll be "saved" by reading theory, they want to have an educated discussion on the subject. If you read theory and still arent a communist, great! You can now have educated discussions beyond repeating the exact same claims everyone else has.
@@dango6266
Original thought is the literal antithesis of conservatism
He is not the devil he is the demiurge god is el the father of the demiurge the devil doesn't exist with gnosticism
Big disagree my guy.
Gnosticism has nothing to do with communism. You didn't eve make a point for it.
Would love to see a video of gnosticism
The Bible isn’t about one god, it’s about many gods, the Elohim. Yahweh was assigned to be the god of the Israelites. Other Elohim were assigned to neighboring nations.
Read the books, the Naked Bible and Gods of the Bible by Mauro Biglino, to learn the Hebrew names of these gods, the Elohim. Read what happened to those who disobeyed Yahweh. Do we really want to worship such a tyrant?
This is Eric Voegelin's thesis. But he argued that all modern thought from the Renaissance onward takes this form. Marxism, along with fascism is just the most advanced and degenerate form of it. Liberalism does this too.
I think you are confusing Promethean with Gnostic.
@@the11382 he called it Gnostic, though it can be debated how much he accuracy knew about ancient Gnosticism. In his view the abandonment of natural ends as in Aristotle was tantamount to saying that nature is the enemy of humanity and must be conquered and overcome.
@@user-cz8gi2om3n That is confusing Gnosticism with the Promethean Spirit. Gnosticism seeks to escape reality, Promethean seeks to dominate reality.
I think this new "Wokeism" is much more degenerate than the old "Marxism". Degeeracy is literally the central focus point.
@@the11382who talked of the Promethean Spirit? Nietzsche, right?
Wasn't Marx an athiest? 🤨
Being a communist and watching content like this is gold. @whatifalthistory literally just said the thing. "Communism is something i don't understand, and I'm afraid of it." Like bro is out here really giving the most cookie cutter NPC answer a rightoit could give.
You just proved his point lmao but hey socialism is cool national socialism that is 😏
His argument was that people who say “if only you understood then you would know I am right” are fallacious, but if anything I hear that argument coming more from capitalists than I do socialists. His previous shorts on it were literally “communists are wrong because they don’t know what I know about human nature”.
@@BeautifulGreen252 the short is literally "If you don't understand something, make a bad faith argument"...also, how has National Socialism historically worked out?
@@erisstewart4236 lmfao imagine claiming you did your research on Marx without realizing that he said "The history of all hitherto existing human society is the history of class struggles.”
Homie really been taking shots at communism lately. EXCELLENT WORK 🙌
Ok we get it you don’t like communism. Communism bad. Bro what happened to like any other content?
Deification is an essential part of Christianity.
Gnosticism is based.
On fiction 😂
@@iagoofdraiggwyn98 almost everything people believe is based on fiction. Fiction is actually very important.
YEAH, CYRSE THE HOUSE OF JUDAH, DAMN KHAZARIANS AND PHILISTINES.
I doubt it. If anyone is teaching you falsely it would be the one who made himself a god by teaching you to punish the innocent while the guilty goes unpunished and is forgiven. Is that what you teach your children? If your child breaks the rules do you punish his innocent sibling while the guilty child goes unpunished and is forgiven? If your child goes to a school and shoots innocent people, since all I see is about guns and school shootings on air, are you as the parent going to request to the judge that your child go free unpunished and be forgiven while one of his uninvolved classmates goes to death row? Does that even make sense to you? Should the innocent pay for the guilty? That is not fair to those who aren't guilty.
I'm getting really close to unsubbing whatiftiktok.
The one time I disagree with you and it’s not cause I hate you man but you not really representing gnostics in a fair light every mystery school promised the same thing and we don’t call them all communist because of it
Have James Lindsay on pls 😭
Is this a reference to some book? I think I know who James Lindsay is but I dunno what he has to do with Gnosticism...
@@gussampson5029 he’s made a lot of videos mentioning this idea
(WIAH does mention James in the full video, iirc)
Because there certainly isn’t anything communist about the God of the Old Testament 😂
This is a correct assessment insofar as both are satanic (or promethean if you want to portray it in a positive light) but after that they dont have much in common.
You need to work on your shorts they dont work well out of context
I think the link is a similar in regards to the means of its themes, like he said. Communism is very much like a relgion unto how it conducts itself. However, Communism is the escape from the evils of capitalistic society comprised of haves and have nots. While Gnosticism is the escape from the evils of a corrupt physical reality. Both assume that the people are under some sort of spell because arent aware of it, or are directly working as an advocate for what they deem as evil. This dualistic absolutism is a parallel.
James Lindsay has really been surfing the algo, it seems
I might get to start saying I found him before he was cool.
Have we been listening to James Lindsey? 🤔
The Lindsay is strong with this one.
The missing puzzle here is the huge historical gap between the two and the absence of any meaningful influence of gnosticism in Marx. Meanwhile you could make a stronger argument that the tendency to sanctify Marx's truths as "immortal science" while operating in a framework of orthodoxy could be a product of Christian culture and expectations overall
My Bible teacher is a gnostic. It’s sad
What's wrong with that? Just a different religion
@@plebuluslitterally can't learn the bible listening it from him
@@plebulus from what I've heard it's not just any other religion, it's a very parasitical and harmful one. TIK history, RUclipsr, makes a good argument for why Hitler was a gnostic instead of a pagan or christian. Check it out and come to your own conclusion
Based af.
@@lorefox201 actually yeah that's weird why is he a Bible teacher if he's not even a Christian
Gnosticism is so interesting, kinda want to take inspiration from it for both the Good guys and Bad guys in my story.
Bro what
Eh, I mean the Gnostics who held to the specific positon that the God of the Old Testament was different and opposed to the God of the Old Testament were only a couple of several different gnostic groups. Though the idea of of Communism being a 'riff' off of gnosticism given its attachment to German Idealism is considerably plausible
Tik just did a video on this
Do the dates line up though? Were the Nag Hammadi texts discovered when Marx gathered his ideas? I don’t see how you can say definitely that Gnosticism led to communism.
Also, bear in mind that the gnostics back then had myriad beliefs, like the Christians of today, so I do think this is too broad an explanation for the teachings of every sect.
The maleficent sub-god of the gnostics isn’t the same devil as most would think; the Demiurge is supposed to be a unique entity itself, that isn’t necessarily a God-God but an ignorant prideful illusionist. So he’s not Lucifer or even really a fallen Angel. It seems to me that many gnostic sects simply didn’t agree with the Old Testament God, believing instead on a higher consciousness beyond the wrathful YHWH. Meta-analytically, it seems to me that we really don’t know which was the original Christianism, Gnosticism or Pauline.
Gnostics believe in one God, but one without an ego. It eminates from there to other sub-creator-creations kinda like Brahman, from what I understand or Iru Illuvatar, I suppose.
But capitalism is better! you guys don't get it becuase you've never actually stopped to think or see the true wonders it brings for everyone and ourselves, only once you've come to see the valuable fruits of our work and investment you'll be able to see it.
Lol
I am Jesus. I am also a Marxist-Leninist. We all seek the right path to the destination on the left. I'm glad you've all found this road by yourselves.
Wow my two least favorite things are related!
Why?
Nevermind you think is satanic huh