How To Find the Best Disc Golf Driver for Distance
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- Complete guide for choosing a disc golf driver that will give you maximum distance. Coverage includes Flight Dynamics, Failure Modes, Strategic Disc Selection, and Top Professional Disc Selections. Visit www.bestdiscgol... for the complete list of links to resources mentioned in the video.
Man. I wish this would have been available when I started playing. I definitely look forward to seeing more videos. This will be a great benefit to players of all levels!
Tricia Lafferty Well said. Would have saved me alot of aimless digging around the internet had this been around before. Well done!
It would have saved me a lot of money on discs that weren't right for me. I think I am going to open up a used disc store soon. lol
+Tricia Lafferty Thank you! We'll be publishing new videos all spring, summer, and fall each year (Northern Hemisphere seasons), but we do take winter off!
this channel is, by far, the best for disc golf tutorials/help. been playing for a few years now and still struggling with some shots. i live in northern Michigan so i only usually get about 4-5 months of decent weather, at best, to apply what i’ve learned from these videos. i’m more of a hands on learner, so i typically don’t grasp the info very well from books/videos. but this channel is a huge help with the best details, making it easier to understand
This might be the most important disc golf video ever made.
This is incredibly helpful. So many people pick up high speed discs and then get frustrated with them (including myself). This video does a great job explaining how to ease yourself into different discs. Thanks for the time and effort.
As a noob, I was trying to buy the cheapest discs. A seller refused to sell to me until i watched this and another video! Mad respect! I am so much more prepared to make "better" purchases as opposed to cheaper ones!!!
Great videos, sure it will help! Though I think the disc weight parameters is missing. if a max weight destroyer is too stable, how about trying a lighter weight one?
I was having trouble with my 9-speed discs with not getting distance (Valkyrie and Firebird) so I found our local disc shop here in Boise (very well stocked I may add) and chatted with the owner and after looking through my bag and asking a few questions his suggestion was....a Sidewinder, it was as stated in the video so good feelings there. I had just watched this video after purchasing the Sidewinder so will take it out this afternoon for a smoke test.
This is my first time commening on a youtube video. This is the BEST tutorial video that explains disc golf so well.!!
This is a fantastic resource for new and seasoned players alike. I wanted to mention one key thing though that, as others have said, is an extremely important consideration--disc weight. I originally bought a 175g Pro Boss that was just too stable for my throwing speed. But instead of trying a slower speed or less stable disc, I bought a 155g R-Pro Boss. With my throwing speed, that disc now has an incredibly beautiful high speed turn and consistent fade which I can throw around 400 feet. And for those long uphill shots, I now have a 150g R-Pro Boss where the additional lift helps it get up the hill.
There is no mention in the video of disc weight (in this video) which is unfortunate since so many disc buyers don't know what weight to get for a given disc. But I do see there's a whole other video by BDGD that covers weight so maybe the 2 videos together assist in which model--and weight--to buy/use. Just remember, disc weight can be just as good as, if not better, of a way to modify the flight path as changing disc models. I now know the flight shape of all 3 discs which is quite different but helpful in different situations. But since they are the same model, they have the exact same feel in the hand which is helpful for consistency.
Thanks Josh -- and we couldn't agree more.
This is what I needed months ago when I started. I've found, through lots of homework and common sense, that this video is dead on!!! I've thrown high speed discs, over-, under- and stable. The universal numbers on the discs definitely apply to the "pros" or high velocity throws. Ultimately, trial and error works best, and knowing what you can and can't throw, too.
Great solid advice. Easy to understand and implement for someone trying to elevate ones driving. Thanks
zaxxx
Excellent data and presentation. May be a bit heady for the average consumer, but I find this information to be critical for dispelling myths concerning disc "speed" and the effective distance it will yield for players of varying ability levels. Great work. Cheers.
The. Best. DiscGolf. Tutorial. Ever!
I remember throwing a Lightning when I first started playing. It would dive left like crazy. Then as I progressed, I could turn it over in the first 100ft of flight, usually rolling it. They were great for short, right dog-legs.
A fantastic guide. I've gone through many, many discs through trial and error.
That's even worse when all the brands productions lines are inconsistent
Best tutorial still! I need more videos from all angles of disc golf from you guys. Perfectly explained! Thanks.
I've been pretty good at one point but my "theory" has always been good and you encapsulated it nearly perfectly. My only comment is this is purely for distance which is almost never my objective aside from a few holes I've played. It's placement which regardless of wind may require me to throw a firebird or Z flick to bend and skip... or if slightly longer but with the same objective I would throw a wraith somewhat weak. edit: (RHBH mostly)
Learned more in this short vid than months of browsing the internet. Thanks!
Good video. This man sounds like he has a good technical basis. I would love to see a good technical breakdown for different wind conditions, this seems to be the hardest part of where my game is at right now.
Instead of "tendency" I say "aerodynamic properties". The discs mold has properties and specific shapes giving "tendencies". I love your video and Im very into discs flight, speed, etc.
This was the most informative, best produced explanation I have heard. The one element I wish I could see in here has to do with weight, which seems to be a super important feature for many. In terms of benchmarks and target weights, is there a bell curve we should be looking to use or should I continue to experiment with all the 150-178 g discs
Haha I just found your weight video... Also awesome!
Stephen: Check out our video on Choosing the Best Disc Weight -- it should answer all of your questions!
+Best Disc Golf Discs Seriously, thank you for laying it all out so cleanly, I literally started yesterday (did surprisingly okay), but this really summed up all the physics for me perfectly.
I agree. I've been playing seriously for about 3 years and it surprised me how much I learned. Can't wait to watch their other videos!!!!
the Best disc "whys it do that" series out there. thanks very much!
Weight is super important too! At high altitude in Boulder where I live, I throw Wraiths for distance (400'-450' or so). But I save full weight (175g) Wraiths for shots I expect to fade at the end. For max D I go down to ~166. For tail wind or super-long hyzer-flip I'll occasionally throw a 158 Blizzard Wraith. They all feel similar have similar flight paths but the lighter ones just have more turn and glide. You can put them on a hyzer and still get them holding right for a while at the end.
Great info, solid approach to explaining the dynamics. Can you do another one with Fairway/ Control Discs?
Great video, i will be showing this to a lot of people. Only thing i would add is possible disc weight to add to the scale.
EXCELLENT SYNOPSIS.
Thank you!
im a NOOB, and this is an awesome video. THANK YOU!!
Great video with illustrations. Really helps with understanding everything involved. Looking forward to seeing more.
Great vid. Pls do one talking about weight.
Wow...great video! I've been playing a about a year now. This video makes me feel like I've made all the right adjustments as far as driving disc. Thanks! Hopefully a video for driving the disc off the tee pad
best disc golf videos by far...please make more!
Super good content. Your videos made me the player I am today! Not great. But not bad!
Great video. Wish you would have covered disc weight though. I think the weight of a disc has a major impact on its flight characteristics. Maybe just as important as the type of disc you choose is the weight of that disc.
Amazing video! really enjoying all the videos you've posted so far. keep them coming!
Good things to think about for disc selection and looking to the future as well. Great job.
My drives are starting to hang out to the right and I couldn’t figure out why. Maybe I’m starting to out grow my discs. The wanderer theory makes a lot of sense.
Great breakdown! Look forward to seeing more of these tutorials
Awesome, awesome video! This has really helped my understanding and therefore my disc selection. I'm guessing you're going to do a video on uphill/downhill shots in the future. Also, I understand your X,5,-1,3 system, but noodle-armed people like myself (my arms move notoriously slow) might look into X,5,-1,2 discs (For innova that is Viking, Krait, TeeDevil and Dominator) if they find the 3 fade to be a bit strong. Again, thanks for posting this hugely informative video!
Awesome explanation. Thank you!
These videos are amazing.
I've been playing since June of 2015 and on average, on flat ground, I throw it backhand about 330' to 340' Can u recommend a driver that might get me an extra 20' to 30'? Stellar video btw!
Very helpful. I just recently started back playing after many years away so I'm basically back at square one. My first mistake was choosing a higher speed driver and also on the heavy side. Since I tend to overpower my throws (install grunt here), I strained my right arm and it has been sore for two weeks now. I started throwing LHBH but I have always been a natural RH and the LH just doesn't generate enough speed to be as effective as my RHBH. So what did I do? I started throwing RHFH because for some reason, it didn't strain my arm as bad. Problem with that now is that I still can't get the power necessary to throw my high speed driver so I am going to have to TOTALLY reinvent my bag with lower speed drivers and definitely lower weight. (at least until my arm heals or my technique gets better)
Solid video, with great information.
You're a genius. Thank you for clearing up my concerns!
great vid keep it up! good luck on your youtube endevor!
Awesome videos. Thank you!
An excellent video, really breaks down variables related to the disks themselves, however why was disc weight not considered?
Thanks Kevy D -- we didn't get into weight in this video because it was already approaching 10 minutes in length, so we did a complete video about disc weight here: ruclips.net/video/CvpdTf_FjjM/видео.html
AMAZING VIDEO!
Lol. 7 people disliked. Really. Great video. Hope to see more
This help and I it did fucking help a lot I truly am going to use this as more of something to perfect a shot rather than guess and stop having fun with.
I'm right-handed. What could cause my full-weight Wahoo (12, 6, -2, 2) to behave strangely? I throw a backhand it behaves just as expected but if I go forehand it does a spectacular edge-first crash to the left. Well, it doesn't turn that much left, more like switches to mid-air roller. I have no problems throwing a West Side Sword (12, 5, 0, 2) from either side. Surely I can't be overpowering it? Is the stability rating (-2 vs 2) related to this tendency to dive?
I got a Wahoo not long ago so that I could enjoy water crossings without risking throwing away more money. I know lots of snobby forum people say to just get good at throwing and avoid the water in the first place rather than rely on floating, but this doesn't work for me because I've been playing for 7 years and still lose discs in the ponds, so if my game was ever going to change to the point where I no longer ended up in the water ever again (or at least the vast majority of the times I attempted to throw near/across water), then over these past 7 years, that change would've taken place by now. So since it hasn't, I'd rather have a floating disc in my bag so that budget issues and/or the extra frustration that comes with losing a disc to water (as opposed to just having a really bad throw with no disc loss) doesn't steer me away from playing.
Got a bit sidetracked there, but my Wahoo instantly divebombs when I drive, and I've only attempted to use it a handful of times since purchase. Also, I've only thrown it forehand as that's the only way I can ever remotely get ok distance (still far less than average) and decent aiming consistency. It shows you commented 7 months ago; did your Wahoo ever get better for forehand?
Nicklas Karlsson I'm going to guess it has to do with your release angle. It seems easier initially for people to throw backhand with more hyzer, and forehands with more anhyzer. Since the Wahoo is understable, it will flip up from a backhand hyzer into a nice full flight. On the forehand side, that disc just doesn't have the stability to pull itself out of the anhyzer angle at the power you're throwing it at.
Amazing video. Thanks a ton.
Great video! Thank you!
Thank you for your videos, they are very thorough. I am looking for a Christmas gift to my fianceé, but I'd like to surprise him with "the best" disc possible. Your videos showed me that it isn't as simple as I thought. Can I ask for an advice, maybe a good suggestion of the best brand or a well rated Disc, please? I'd love to impress him with my choice. Any help is appreciated. :)
+helcris23gb No problem! As a quick reference, we've put together the list of what our research has determined to be 10-Best Overall Discs here: www.bestdiscgolfdiscs.com/the-best-overall-disc-golf-discs/
Also, if you go to our main page at www.bestdiscgolfdiscs.com you will find more options, broken down specifically by the player's skill and experience level. Good luck!
ok you show the 3 discs that meet this criteria in the pro bag.... speed 11 wraith, speed 12 destroyer and speed 13 boss ---- I'm a noob with a very weak arm ... what speed 9 and 10 disc meet your criteria.... again my question what disc is a speed 9 or 10, glide of 5, turn of -1 to -3 and a fade of 3.... and oh id like the lightest weight disc that meets this category! thanks
Good show. How about weight? Say you're a "You", and you throw a Boss 170 terribly, how would you do with a Boss 145.
Nice video. Can you do one on overhead/tomahawk shots?
Jared Langson just get a nuke OS.
great info
Would fade ever have an effect on when the disc starts to decelerate? I would like to experiment and find this out but idk how to.
How would you recommend selecting weight?
RockCh4lk I suggest everyone starting at a baseline 170-172. Adjusting to heavier gives more wind resistance and more overall more overstable flight. Going lighter obviously have the opposite effect. That is not always the case though occasionally you get the oddball 167 overstable disc. Trial and error is almost always required, less so with Innova and Discraft though.
Check out his new video.
Great video!!
My brother just started playing and he has crazy strength in his left arm. (He reached 300ft+ on his first day playing) unfortunately for him our course is made up of left hand turns. I hope I can find some discs that when thrown finishes right when thrown by him will fly straight and finish left.
+thorin dyer make him flick
+thorin dyer I'm a lefty player and I throw mostly sidearm on those shots, also if you are looking for turnover discs (LHBH turn to left) I would go with sidewinder, valkyrie, or archangel
So if i can throw my max weight champion boss and get it to turn over on a consistent basis, does this mean I'm ready for that disc? I'm maxing out between 375, and 400. Now if i could just get it to go the direction i want it to...
I turn my wraith over way too much. My destroyer is awesome, but after 18 holes it wears on my arm. I try to throw my wraith at a slower speed, but it always turns over on me
big fan of disc golf matthew mcconaughey
what about weight cus if a disc weighs more i think it will be more overstable
How about disc weight?
Is there a big difference between a left and a righty. Im a lefty and i never see any lefty out there. Would you just flip the charts.
yep, just flip the charts for lefty or forehand
I'm new to this game and have no ideas what frisbees is best.
So after playing a little while, I decided to buy three pieces.
Gold line Saint who is a Driver
Latitude 64 Claymore who is a Midrange
Dynamic Discs Judge who is a Putter
Someone who has experience with the Frisbee?
the judge is a glorious putter, i use it myself as an allround putter for those shots whitin 20 metres.
the claymore gets beaten up quit easily and gets horrible flight characteristics, i would suggest a roc 3 or a lat64 fuse.
the saint is very dependant if u are a forehand or a backhand thrower, if backhand yes, a good beginners disc, forehand a big no no, i woulld however suggest a Westside sword or a king as a beginners disc
How did you estimate the speed and the spin for BH and FH shots? Where the values 2000 and 1600 rpm come from? Just curious.
Hi Jouni -- I think you are referring to our FH vs BH comparison video: ruclips.net/video/E-0nSLn1IX4/видео.html ? The speed data was collected by Theo Pozzy in a detailed study using a radar gun. The spin data was actually consolidated from multiple sources using different methods for measuring RPMs.
any suggestions for figuring out speed beyond just getting and throwing a bunch?
+Timothy Heimbach The most accurate method is to use a radar gun. I have seen people use cameras set at 60fps to calculate the speed by tracking the flight distance relative to the count of frames (I.e. How far did the disc travel in 60 frames, or 1 second)
Awesome, thanks!
Good info! How do lighter weight drivers figure in?
Hi Preston -- check out our full video on disc weight here: ruclips.net/video/CvpdTf_FjjM/видео.html
So i happen to have no ability to throw back hand what so ever. I throw RHFH and im still struggling. I am a begginer, but i also want to know what type of disc would help me learn to manage my throwing to be accurate and a fairly good distance. What should i look for as far as that goes?
Depending on your throwing speed, i would suggest a Star Destroyer (Medium speed), Westside Sword (Low speed), Prodigy D4 (Medium Speed), Westside World (High Speed), my pal quite easily averages 100-120m with the world and he is RHFH, i average about 80-100 m with the star destroyer, 80-90 with the sword, 90-115 with the d4 and im RHFH
rednecman19
learn to throw back hand. using the twisting motion of my upper body throwing backhanded has gained me better distance with accuracy.
Mountainvlogger wraith or beast with one finger
anyone know any good forehand discs for an intermediate disc golfer? would help a lot, thanks
+SpeedStackerTim33 Starfire. Won't flip over easily but doesn't require huge armspeed
Does this all apply the same to a R forehand drive?.....but in reverse?
Yes Derek -- RHFH/LHBH are just a mirror image of the flight lines that are shown in the video
Actually the FH tends to turn more than a BH as lots of ppl are able to get stronger whip with FH.
no wonder my sidewinder turn so much to the right
Question. at what speed would i have to release my 171g star distroyer to throw it over 400' ? and would you be able to tell me for 175g boss?
+StevieGTO4 There are obviously a number of variables, but on average drives need to be thrown 65-70mph to travel 400 feet.
+Best Disc Golf Discs thanks love your vids and website. keep it up.
So where does the disc spin speed come in?
The more spin you put on the disc the longer it will glide
How do you know how fast you are throwing
To know exactly how fast, a radar gun is needed. To understand if you are generating enough (or too much) speed for the disc you are using, however, you just need to observe the flight pattern.
This video is very well produced, but why don't you ever address SPIN? It has always been my understanding that spin is what keeps the disc in the air, why better throwers can turn a disc over, and why beat up discs have more air friction and turn over easier. A lower velocity thrower with good spin can get a disc to turn over easily. While I understand that the two USUALLY go hand in hand, it is not always the case. A person who is a VERY hard (read: high velocity) thrower with a poor grip (like me) or form will not get the effects you illustrate at all. I don't think the focus of a video like this should be on velocity alone because all the new players watching will immediately start thinking "I NEED TO THROW FASTER (harder)" and it could impact their progression in the sport in a negative way. if you have addressed this in another video, Please let me know. Thanks again for your hard work.
My question is release angle, both nose angle and side to side hyzer/anhyzer angle. Is there any benefit to throwing an Overstable disc with a lot of anhyzer to force an S shape? Why or why wouldn't you want to do this? It's hard to combine all the different factors into 1 video, but I agree with you that the velocity topic was a bit too vague. this is why tiny pro female throwers can hit 500+ feet drives effortlessly. Their form creates excellent spin.
Hi Caleb! Unfortunately we can’t cover everything in each video or they’d all be 90 minutes long ;-) The shot you are describing, though, is called a Flex Shot. Here’s a full breakdown we did: www.bestdiscgolfdiscs.com/hyzerflip-sshot-flexshot-guide-tips/
Thank you for the reply. That is an excellent break down on the 3 main types of shots. My only question is this: What happens when you perform a hyzer flip with an overstable disc and it turns too much and crashes right? Was it thrown too "hard"? And when I say hard.... did it have too much spin or too much power or both? I have a very bad tendency of turning over my shots and watching them crash to the right (and they don't roll... lol) This bad tendency of mine actually helped me develop a really good hyzer flip roller though... so some silver lining. I really need to work on grip and disc selection (and everything really).
P.S. Don't buy DX plastic.
besides putters and midranges. beat in midranges for turnover shots are fantastic.
Obviously you dont play in the rain
I had 15 discs ..some of the bests .then some asshole stole my bag outta my car 😡
innovas discs are more inconsistent than alot of manufacturers.
kevin James Kevin - I think what you are more likely experiencing is the different flight characteristics of their different plastics. For example, a DX Destroyer and a Champion Destroyer will fly differently (by design). This is why pros often carry their favorite discs in multiple different plastics, so they can take advantage of the variations.
They also have the most world champs
I feel that is a bit of a blanket statement, certain discs are inconsistent depending on which run it is and so on, the fact that Innova puts out a larger volume of discs than their competitors mean you may have a hard time finding a disc from the same run as one you are trying to replace... (I still love my 10-time KC pro teebird, I wish I knew how valuable they would become when they were new and I bought mine.)
Throughout the years I have bought and I am still throwing Innova, Discraft, Discmania, Latitude 64, Dynamic Discs, Westside. I also had a few discs from Millenium back in the day but I outgrew those particular discs and replaced them with other brands. Some of my DX plastic discs remain reliable to this day even with multiple seasons played with them.. my roc comes to mind, I also throw DX Beast quite a bit and usually bag 2 of those (1 decently used, 1 almost fresh) yet even the one that looks quite chewed up has kept most of its handling characteristics... these are early runs though, from when the Beast was a new model.
Back on the main topic though: I feel the Pro's focus on X/5/-1/3 flight ratings has more to do with reliability than distance. This is still a game of precision and the moderate glide and fade makes the disc a bit more reliable in that respect.
I personally would go for max glide and a 2 fade.. (Saint comes to mind at 9/7/-1/2) but the already difficult task of "hitting it" perfectly becomes even harder once you try to minmax glide and fade like that.
Basically the "zone" you are trying to hit for a good distance line becomes smaller in terms of disc speed, angle, height.
However since the Boss used by Lizotte in his distance record was a lightweight disc it does behave somewhat like that already.
Gamer here: "Newb" is a new player. "Noob" is someone who actively ignores advice on how to improve.
Shut the fuck up
Jonjey Comms why? Newb means newbie, noob means ignorant.
no
go go go go go go go go go go
This is the single most GREATEST tutorial I have ever seen. EVER. subbed.
Great video. Crash and Wander would be good disc names too.
Interesting video. Most people start from the "noob" perspective, but I think this shows a more realistic approach since new players often tend to gravitate towards the higher-speed discs under the false assumption that they'll go farther. One minor criticism -- and maybe it was assumed and intentional -- is that this didn't say on what angle the discs were being thrown. I assume it was intended to convey a flat release, but it wasn't addressed. Hyzer-flips being an integral part of the game, I would LOVE to see y'all do a video on that topic similar to this. GREAT research and awesome narration. SUBSCRIBED!
Wow, great tutorial! In under 10 minutes explains all the basics of throwing a disc for those of us who are getting better but still don't know all the details. Well done.
My advice to aspiring beginners is to throw star leopards under 170. Exclusively.. Use it for every type of shot. Then you'll realize your score is better compared to your friends lugging 20 discs around. And you can use your bag for BEER and SNACKS.
+henry manahan This is great advice. I pretty much do this. I do have a bespoke putter though. Now that I've got my hyzer flip game going a little bit, I achieve some pretty decent range with the leopard too. Mine is 174g though.
+ruhje Same
Leopard are super flippy, throw Westside swords instead
Leopards aren't super flippy, they're essentially stable/straight line discs
After not playing for a few years I came back and used just my Leopard and Putter for two rounds and it got my game back to where it used to be.
Honestly some of the most mint material in this video right here! Good work man!!!
This explains why I'm starting to get the wander with my wraith, when I used to throw it a lot straighter.
8:12 A HA moment. I just started overpowering my DX Archangel (8 6 -4 1). I guess that's a sign my technique and power are getting better : ) OUTSTANDING video, by the way!
Micah Epps I have one too, and ended up going to a Viking and Valkyrie afterwards.
I’ve read lots of comments that the Archangel is basically useless to anybody except a total beginner with no developed arm speed yet. They’re already super understable when new, and only get worse when they beat in. I still have mine, and a few weeks ago, I threw it about 350 feet with a 15mph tailwind...it STILL turned right lol
Your videos are great! Keep up the good work. These have me thinking in a totally new way when I'm out on the course. Instead of just grabbing the disc that I feel like I can throw well I am putting a bit more thought into what I am picking. I always had a good idea of what my discs would do (barring I make a good throw), but now my choices are much more educated. Thanks again!
Bravo! Very well done. Thanks for the excellent, thorough, digestible, explanation. Disks demystified!
I’m really looking for a video that speaks to the very low tolerance used in disc production. Yes the numbers could be where you need them to be, but the MAJORITY of discs are inconsistent in their production.
Great video! Breaking this down into topics (disc selection, weight, release angle, etc) is more manageable. Would love to see a video later that puts it all together. Keep up the good work! Subscribed.
This is the only source I have ever heard that likes to move from the pro level BACK to the you level. Everyone is always telling me "That is too much disc for a noob it's not going to work for you." I prefer to work backward but nobody, I mean nobody wants me to do that and I hear about it all the time. Listen, I'm pretty bad. If I can play under Bogey, I am having a good day. So, talk about my form, stance, head position...but shut up with what disc I HAVE TO USE. I can tell what disc I'm throwing well and what disc I am not. Maybe I can throw an understable disc better. But I won't know until you let me buy that understable disc instead of telling me it's the worst thing I could possibly do for my game and I need to only be throwing midrange discs.
Does Turn-over simply mean that it changes its direction midflight? i´ve found a MVP Teleport Neutron disc while playing casually with my gf. i just played 3-4 times before with cheapo lent discs. than i thought i will give that thing some throws and it always made a really really hard s-like curve on me. i put all my effort in to throw that thing fast, but as i have no comparison to other players, i don´t know if my throw was stron or weak in your perspective. i threw rhfh most of the time with an early release, so that the disc flew in a leftcurve first. then it always drifted to the right hard.
Phenomenal video. Wow. 4mins in and liked and subscribed. Can't wait to watch all your vids. Well done. Blown away.
I watched this last summer when I first took up disc golf and it was sooo confusing. Now it makes perfect sense and I'm throwing the wrong discs. :-(