Part-1 Engines for World's Largest Triple Expansion Steam Engine
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- Опубликовано: 2 ноя 2011
- Weighing in at 1,400 tons these 104 feet high 1,000 h.p. engines are the largest triple expansion crank & flywheel water pumping steam engines ever built. They reside at the Greater Cincinnati Water Works where we invite you to explore a state-of-the-art, high volume, and high quality water pumping system for a growing community in the early 1900s. Part 1 covers the engines and Part 2 covers the water pumps and the process steam generation. Part 3 will cover the construction history for a unique below grade pump house.
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Beautiful!! I love everything about steam. Thank God this engine still exists in it's original state and hasn't been disposed of, like so many municipalities have done around the country.
Thanks. If you're ever in Cincinnati come see us. Our tour schedule is on the website.
Best explanation of a Corliss valve i've heard,
Thanks, glad it helped.
What stands out is the extraordinary cleanliness in an environment that can sling some goop!
Well . . . when they were shut down in 1963 they were filthy. In 1990 the station underwent a 12 month cleaning and repainting. Yes, they look good now and we appreciate their good looks.
@@LelandHiteK8CLI Appreciate the grueling soaking up and abatement that it surely involved!
These monster engines are a true testament of engineering prow-less. Amazes me . The sizes of castings and labor that had to go into this assembly. Work of mechanical art in motion.
Yes, agree. I wished we could open up again so people could enjoy the tour. When you stand on and next to these engines it is hard to imagine how the casting and associated pattern this size could be built so incredibly accurate. Looking forward to the time we can reopen. Thanks for the comment. Lee
350133.3ft lbs of torque or 474717.01303NM nearly 500,000 NM. Those eccentrics are beautiful.
They did exactly that most of the time, roll the engine off TDC then apply steam. When that didn’t work then they would roll with steam applied and cut the rope. The starting procedure always included using the 60 psi head pressure from the reservoir as back pressure on the pump plunger to assist rolling. The inlet pressure from the river was unloaded through a series of drains (fast acting gate valves) above and below the inlet check valve assembly to empty all three pump chambers.
Wow, that's one hell of an engine, its more like a living breathing thing, simply beautiful, and a testament to all those who designed, manufactured, and built it
Agree and in fact every time I do a tour I never get tired of looking at these engines. I am in awe of the precision form the workers for a 1400 ton engine and the accuracy of the wood molds to make them,
Thanks for the tip
Super engine!
A beautiful example of reciprocating steam engineering.
SO complex. It is amazing what you had to do to get working power bck in the day.
Magnificent!
Good Question. That is one of the big mysteries with this engine that baffles us. Most everyone used a barring or jacking or kicking engine to roll a big engine. Even when the engines weren’t quarter locked it was a fairy-complicated procedure to start. The 60 psi of head pressure had to be removed along with a long list of valves that required opening or closing. You can read the actual starting/stopping procedure on the web site. Use the (River Station RS) menu button.
Good question. Condenser pressure is momentarily about -13.8 p.s.i g. and with the introduction of steam from the LP cylinder into the condenser, that causes the pressure in the second receiver to approach the condenser pressure, but it can never achieve that pressure because of the expanded steam from the IP cylinder. The resultant second receiver pressure is a summary of the pressure from the IP cylinder and condenser pressure, which is about -2 p.s.i g. Hope this helps….
The Manhattan engines were the largest steam engine built, triple expansion , Corliss valves. they were used to power the subway system in New York . They were designed on the trip from NY to Milwaukee by train. Edwin Reynolds was the engineer and designed them and work started as soon as he got back to Milwaukee. They were built at the west allis works of the Allis Chalmers mfg co. They produced 10000hp at nominal speed. Allis Chalmers was the largest manufacturer of steam engines in the world!
+John Doe Thanks for the comment. Yes indeed, our engines are 1,000 HP and not the most powerful,as we indicate on the website and in other locations. They are physically the largest weighing over 1,400 ton each and standing 104 feet tall. I hope this helps.
+CincinnatTripleSteam Thanks for the numbers, I have to get my Allis Chalmers books out before I could comment on the Manhattan engines dimensions, you could be right. When Edwin designed these engines he used the rotating weight of the armatures to act as the flywheels, that was to cut the overall weight, and cost to make these behemoth's, so its very possible yours is heavier.
+CincinnatTripleSteam I actually have the original blue prints for the Manhattan's, but they Dont give weights per part just dimensions unassembled. They were suppose to go to the Smithsonian, but for some reason we ended up buying them
+John Doe Yes, one of our engines was also destined for the Smithsonian but not allowed by the water works because all four engines are holding the building in the ground, caused by the 20,000 tons of hydraulic pressure pushing up on the building, 105 feet below grade. Allis and Allis-Chalmers made some awesome triple expansion engines. They bid on this job but the water works wanted real time changes during construction at no cost, so AC and the other three bidders said no deal. R.D. Wood Co. said okay, and won the bid.
Also, during the tours I tell our tour guest that NY had the larges HP triples. Sure glad to learn more about them. Are there pictures?
+CincinnatTripleSteam I was wrong about the triple , the Manhattan's were actually double compound engines located on both sides of the generator. As of right now you may have me on the physical size dimensions, I can not locate weights or dimensions of the Manhattan's only HP, which at full load approached 12000 HP at 75 rpm. There are pictures available online of the Manhattans I also have some I could share. I could believe Allis Chalmers didn't bid your project, in those days Allis Chalmers was the premiere builder of power generating engines and turbines, they didn't bid projects. If you wanted an Allis Chalmers, they designed and priced it, to their specs , which were grossly over built, and you simply agreed. A company was unable to tell Allis how something was to be built. It is one of the reasons Allis Chalmers holds so many world records in size and capacities of there products.
Just few comments on your video monologue. I lived in Kentucky in the 2000's and organized a tour of the plant for the Cincinnati Cinder Sniffers and the local Mechanical Engineers group. We had in attendance as guides two elderly engineers from the water works, one of which had been part of management. It was explained to me that the normal way of turning the engines for maintenance was to manually manipulate the water valves on the pump. Reverse water pressure from the reservoir could be used to rotate the engine. I was told that some engineers manipulated the steam poppet valves with wrenches, but that this was frowned upon. The management engineer only offered one example of the crane being used to rotate the engines, and it was a big failure. The engine started rotating all the way around, and nearly took the crane with it as the rope wound around the flywheel on the continued rotation. The crane was not an accepted way of turning the engine.
The wood teeth on the bevel gears are not for easy replacement. They are for protection in the event the valve gear jams. They are intended to shear and prevent the engine from torqueing the valve gear and damaging the valves. Otherwise, the gears would just be steel.
There are vacuum breakers on the exhaust line to the engine. These have a story, as they are not original to the engine. Once the engine was stopped for maintenance, and an engineer climbed into the engine. Vacuum from the exhaust line started to rotate the engine, and the engineer was crushed and killed in the engine. The vacuum breakers were added to prevent this.
Excellent. I went to England to see the Crossness Pumping Engines, now I have to come and see these!
I think your video camera was older than the engine. 😢
We are lucky to have that 1950s video. Agree, less than ideal quality. It was done with an 8mm camera. An employee shot that and it's the only video we have for the engine running. I find it hard to believe there were not more videos but apparently not.
“Super 8!”
@@JG-mp5nb I had one of those, many moons ago.
I believe the largest engines are either in the USS Texas or Japanese battleship Mikasa at 15000hp triple expansion.
Thanks for the information. Yes, there are many engines with larger horsepower than the four at GC WW. Ours is the tallest and the heaviest at 104 feet high and 1800+ ton. Our engine would do 15,000 hp but that was not required to lift water 142 feet in a 48 inch diameter pipe at the rate of 30 million gallons per day. We only needed 1000 hp capability
Yes, as I mentioned on the website, they are not the most powerful, just the largest. We also used Holly’s like the Buffalo engines, four at 1,200 hp and three at 1,100 hp down at main station. I believe New York had triples generating electricity that were around 8,000 hp and I recall the Titanic triples were around 30,000 hp. The steel industry used triples for blowing engines and they were high horsepower but I don't recall the number.
Cincinnati Triple Steam a
The precisely choreographed timing on these huge machines seems derived from that of giant clock mechanisms. Steam engines marry the watchmaker's craft with the laws of thermodynamics. Imagine the joy of being the first to build one!
Actually, they can never run on steam again but might be able to run on air pressure. We have discussed this possibility but it is a long way in the future, if it ever happens. Running with an electric motor is a more realistic possibility, but even that has not yet been determined to be possible.
Good question. I will see one of the engineers this Thursday that was with the engines at that time, and I will see what he remembers about that.
Lee
Good question. That might be true, not sure? We have searched and searched for an accurate definition. Clearly these are not the most powerful. The good folks from the Kempton Steam Museum have visited the station and commented that they agreed with the conclusion that these are the largest triples. They, of course, have the largest operating triple and an awesome museum. Thanks for asking.
I was absolutely astounded by the sounds of the engines running at full speed. Were these sounds recorded from the actual engines as they were running, and is it possible to find say a CD of these engine sounds?
Thanks for sharing this with us I look forward to seeing part two.
+Roy Pounds Sorry about the delay in answering. Probably the best way to hear an actual engine in operation is to visit the Kemptom Steam museum in Kempton England. Their engines run under steam and the website is here www.kemptonsteam.org/ I learned a lot from the last operating engineer for these engines before he passed. He said the only sound was the clicking from the knock-off cams on the Corliss valves. Since the steam is in a closed system, the engine was as quiet as a church mouse, almost. You felt a little rumble in the floor but that was about it.
why couldnt the engine have a small steam engine coupled to the fly wheel to rotate the crankshaft into starting position, rather than use a crane which can be hazardous?
Very nice exhibit. I have been to Colonel Ward Station in Buffalo, and the site of the Holly works in Lockport NY and the Snow-Holly Works in Buffalo (Worthington at the time), These are wonderful machines, but I don't think I would have wanted to on the pour floor when they were being manufactured. much nicer to watch from here.
When the engine was quarter locked, why wasn't the crane used to turn the flywheel out of that position (then apply steam) versus having steam already applied and necessitating two men to cut the ropes quickly?
Cool engine how can negative 2psi be used in the 3rd expansion? I would have thought that was the condenser pressure.
www.tlv.com/global/TI/steam-theory/vacuum-steam.html
I would love to have seen them when I lived not far from there.
Forgive me if Im wrong but I thought steam engine size was rated by cylinder size? Kempton has larger cylinders is all...
that's impressive, -13.8. Given atmospheric pressure, you sure coudln't go much farther!
I forgot to ask you when I was there today, I saw the printing of the boiler that was once there and I was wondering if the steam was superheated?
+George Costanza Yes all nine Sterling water tube boilers had Foster Superheaters and Green Economizers. I believe the dry steam was rated at about 1 1/2 %, I know today's standard for dry steam is lower, maybe 3/4%, not sure?
@@CincinnatTripleSteam
Do you have any estimates for the overall thermal efficiency of the plant?
Tours for these engines are not regular... you have to get up a group and reserve in advance. I'd sure like to get onto one of the tours! Maybe there's a list I could get on?
+scowell Sorry for the delay. Yes, go to cincinnatitriplesteam.org/tour_sign_up.htm to sign up and when I get about eight or more I schedule a tour.
+CincinnatTripleSteam Thanks for the reply... the website says next tour forming Jan 30th... not sure I can make that date. Now I know where to look!
+scowell I have large groups scheduled for Feb. and March but I can always schedule another tour in between, when enough signup. I post to the website as soon as I have enough to schedule and then the list grows to a max of about 16 before I shut it off.
Was für eine Maschine! Gigantisch! Ich habe eine Frage: Warum hat auch diese Maschine Excenter und eine Kulissensteuerung? Ich dachte immer, das das zum Umsteuern der Maschine ist. Aber das macht ja eigentlich bei einer Pumpenmaschine in einem Wasserwerk keinen Sinn. Kann mir mal jemand auf die Sprünge helfen? Bin ich zu blöd oder was?
Um, while they may be the largest stationary engines, the engines on SS Jeremia O'Brien and SS John Brown are both larger by HP (2500 SHP).
ThePeachJames The river don engine at Kelham island, Sheffield U.K. develops 12,000hp and as a rolling engine can reverse in 2 seconds. There are probably more powerful engines still. The point is these engines were sized for the work they needed to do both in terms of dimensions and output. These physically larger engines were more efficient than smaller ones and designed to run slowly for decades. It's rather a pointless exercise to compare power outputs.
Are the pumps still hooked to the engines, and are the pumps still able to pump water? Because if they are, and the engine was restored, and new boiler brought in, there would be no reason to have to run them in an unloaded condition. However I do see the difficulties of trying to get volunteers in a secured location.
These engines originally had their condensers in the water output flow. When the station was electrified, the condensers were cut out to install the plumbing for the electric pumps. The pump level of the station is still the active water supply for Cincinnati. An example of the advance of technology, is the incredibly small size of the electric pumps that replaced the steam pumps.
if you want more views consider adding, "corliss engine" and "centenial engine" to your tags
I always thought the great engines of Kempton were the largest.
They indeed have the largest operating triples and run with steam. Ours (4 total) are much larger, 1,400 tons each and 104' high, but do not run. We are slowly investigating the issues with rolling #2 engine using an electric motor. A lot of issues to address, some of them solved, but we are short on manpower authorized to work in the building. Still hopeful. Hope this helps . . .
Short answer is time and money. They are in a secure and active pumping station so availability to volunteers is quite limited. The boilers are gone but air pressure might be an option. Investigation reveals a considerable amount of work is required to again roll one of these engines. Taking advice from John S. Porter paper on “Preservation by Operation” we are most reluctant to run an engine in an unloaded condition by volunteers. John was a Trustee for the Kew Bridge Steam Museum in London.
Minus 2 PSI? Wouldn't that be a vacuum relative to the atmosphere?
@@Anon54387 Yes, minus 2 PSI is a vacuum relative to the atmosphere. But since the condenser can pull a higher vacuum on the exhaust side of the LP piston in a double acting cylinder that is a positive pressure on the inlet side of the piston.
Why can't they ever be run on steam again exactly?
Because they demolished the boilers. There is a similar large engine in New Jersey that still has its natural gas fired boilers.
1000 hp is very little power for such a big engine, the old steam locomotives produced about 4000 hp and they have a very small bore.
Yes indeed, I agree. We only needed 1000 HP to push 30 MGPD water up 142 feet. The engine would easily do 15,000 HP. The reason for triple expansion engines were their efficiency. They ran around 23-25 % efficient compared to many locomotive engines around 4-6%. (Coal to water efficiency)
Cincinnati Triple Steam is 25% with condensing or without condensing and reheating the condensate, because the condensate still has some residual heat ,
With everything, feed water heater, Green Economizer, Foster Super heater and reheating coils in both receivers and seam jackets on all three cylinders. Feed water enter the boiler at 210 degrees gauge psi.
a steam locomotive runs at a much higher rpm, with lower torque. meaning the total work done is higher, because more work is done in a shorter time.
Great video, but unfortunately with terrible video and sound quality
Ohhhhh I'm gonna poo you now! Pants are not real anymore and now I have ALL of it! The! water! Mineemineemoe. The water is mineyohhhh. You steam stop now. Canradulashuns from Niger.
Sorry, interesting but the audio is so bad this is unreachable.
Sorry to hear that. It seems okay on two of my computers. Maybe try another computer. Thanks for the feedback
pointless. If it can't be ran on steam, then just don't bother. What would be better in that case is to break out a thermal lance and grinders and make a nice cut-away display.
Steam iz fake.