The 2 biggest flaws in this video are the Kaido was less injured than Luffy and Kaido holding up Onigashima wasn't relevant. 1. Luffy "dying" is irrelevant since he got healed and got back up with an awakening, which the Impel Down guards are known for. Plus, the number of attacks from Kaido that Luffy took pales in comparison to the number of attacks Kaido took from Gear 5, Gear 4 ACoC Luffy, Yamato, and Zoro. Even excluding Yamato and Zoro, you can literally just count the number of attacks Kaido tanked, which number way more than Luffy. Kaido basically only got 2 good hits on Luffy, which were the Ragnarok and the final attack pre-Gear 5, Luffy got many more attacks on Kaido. No matter how you slice it, Kaido took more damage than Luffy. We're also talking about what would happen if Gear 5 fought Kaido, not Gear 4, which means that the increased stamina and endurance from Gear 5 is what we'll see if they have a remarch. 2. Kaido holding up Onigashima HAS TO be relevant. Imagine he holds up literally the entire One Piece world. By your logic, this should be easily doable and wouldn't make Kaido weaker at all, which simply doesn't make sense, he clearly has a limit. Nobody is saying the flame clouds were so incredibly taxing that it made Kaido noticeably weaker, it's just that carrying it for so long and while fighting chips away at his strength little by little. Yamato even notes that as Kaido has gotten weaker, the flame clouds started getting weaker as well. And the worst part of your video is when you say "In their final fight, the flame clouds got put out, so it must not be relevant" as if the existence of the flame clouds was relevant at all. No, it's what the flame clouds DID. By that point in the fight, Kaido had already been carrying Onigashima for hours, so it had already drained Kaido's stamina for hours, the damage was already done. It's like putting out a fire after it burns everything inside a house and saying the fire wasn't relevant after it was put out. If anything, the fact that the flame clouds were put out should make Kaido weaker, since those clouds are a part of his dragon form. Kaido could just absorb back those clouds and get stronger if that is how it works. The flame clouds most definitely had drained Kaido, but not by much, but since he was holding it up for so long, it must've weakened him at least a little. Overall, the conclusion of Kaido
Morj your right, realistically speaking, I can see the Luffy of today fighting solo against Kaido (It would be a high-diff fight), and winning. My only personal gripe, is just how slightly unsatisfying it feels. Luffy's been a pirate, for what three maybe four years max, and he's already catching up to seasoned pirates, who have been at this for decades. And worst of all it feels like he's the only one advancing at such a fast rate, none of his other rivals are getting that strong that quickly. I mean look at kid and law, you wouldn't say after defeating big mom that kid or law are stronger than her now individually, hell they still probably struggle to defeat her teaming up if they ever fought again
Great video Morj, however you're wrong about Luffy being dead meaning he took more damage than Kaido. As that can just mean Kaido can take damage that would kill Luffy and not be as affected. Which is backed up as Kaido later fights a Conquers infused Gear 5 which has way stronger attacks than either Luffy attacks pre "death" or Kaido attacks at that killed him, Kaido used several stronger attacks afterwards that wouldn't kill himself if he tried
@@wearemusichq1417 You talking bout' Akainu? Akainu doesn't count, because Luffy didn't really lose a fight against Akainu. He got knocked out by the shock of Ace dying. Maybe you mean Kuzan? But with that Luffy wasn't trying to win. He intentionally sacrificed himself to save Robin. Magellan? Luffy escaping Impel Down with half the prisoners was a big L for Magellan, so you could say Luffy did win in the end, as his goal wasn't to fight Magellan, but to reach Marineford.
@derrickmiles5240 you said fight not achieve the goal, so going by fighting, he did lost to Magellan cause he couldn't beat him like he did the jail beast he lost to Kuma, and he lost to kuzan you can try again thou
Morj is correct here, but imo it's simpler than that. It's a little crazy to think of Luffy as an underdog, when he's been framed as an unstoppable monster since the beginning of the series. Things are more intense or drawn out now, but the formula from East Blue is still the same. A victim feeds Luffy, Luffy calls out their enemy even though he has no business fighting someone that strong, Luffy goes down, gomu-ningen "bounces back", Enel_Shocked_Face.jpg.; enemy gets punched off the map. Throw a "Kaizoku-ou ni, ore wa naru!" somewhere in the middle and a party at the end. That's just how One Piece is. Luffy is a magical crackhead who ignores "power-scaling". Trying to logic your way through it is as pointless as trying to convince Luffy not to do something stupid.
@@darrenraphael lol exactly. On paper he should NOT win but Luffy never gets the memo. Even as far back as Crocodile, his wins don't make sense, but that's why he's our boy.
When you are the protagonist who is destined to become the strongest, of course you are an unstoppable monster... But in a vacuum he would have lost to many characters in a clean fight.
They 100% explicitly state that Kaido holding up Onigashima was a drain on his stamina. When Momo first goes to try and move the island Yamato says the island's mass was becomimg unstable due to Kaido getting tired & his clouds starting to dissipate as a result. Also, Kaido wouldnt get a strength boost once the clouds dissipated that wouldnt make sense at all. You dont get the stamina back you've expended just because you stop doing the strenuous activity.
I think it would mean that he could use that energy he was using to keep up the clouds for something else like fighting luffy. He wouldn't get anything back but he would stop wasting what little he already had on keeping the clouds up
Tired from fighting Luffy. Not tired from holding the island. That scene was intended to show that Luffy was making progress fatiguing Kaido. It was not stating that carrying the island was tiring Kaido
hope you lots are aware that bajarang gun was a move capable of destroying an entire island(Onigashima) no one and i mean absolutely no one(except that weapon used on lulusia). is capable of that, no thunder baguas, no divine depature, no gura gura no mi, no ikoku sovereignity..... nothing. bajarang gun so far in the series is the strongest attack by any character in One piece... there's no way kaido was strong enough to tank that move or produce an attack capable of deflecting it... also the punch was as big as the ISLAND.. how fast do you think kaido can fly, to fly away from a punch that big.
The flames were using Kaido’s strength as in chap 1027 Yamato says Kaido is getting weaker cuz the some of the Onigashima was falling. This also means that Kaido got weakened because of the team effort and not luffy alone
No, I agree with Morj. I believe the flames like the birdcage are tied to your stamina and how much is left rather than it using it as in draining your energy. It's more like a marker or an indicator.
Team effort ? You mean the all poweful conquerors users scabbards ? Lol kaido DIDNT even bother using hibrid form to those weaklings. Law and kid ? They did 1 attack each to kaido lol.
I have been saying this, Kaido was going all out on gear 5 Luffy hitting him directly to the head but still couldn't do anything to Luffy, take Katakuri for example he did way better vs a new transformation than Kaido. I wanted to see Kaido do the same thing but he simply couldn't.
I would counter with the fact that luffy did run out of steam and kaido in full Health would not have lost the power struggle leaving luffy with absolutely nothing.
@@XMoeiskingXluffy was still in pain even though is body was taking kaido's weapon shape. The moment kaido was taking about haki being the the best asset, they xere pretty much evenly matched. Luffy really surpassed Kaido at the bajrang gun clash as he straight up overpowered him.
You’re acting like Luffy was 100% okay afterwards like in his fight with Lucci. A Kaido that went through all that damage was still able to match him (and overpower him)
@@obmis_arraid21 huh? No lol he didn’t overpower him. Kaido was exhausted and luffy had plot. Luffy gear fifth ran out once mid fight. Kaido has this hands down
@@obmis_arraid21how are you so sure ? Didn't hear say this is the best he has ever felt ? Drums of Liberation apparently restores your stamina and puts more gas in the tank
Fresh Kaido vs Fresh Luffy goes to Kaido. People act like G5 was completely washing Kaido or something because of its hacks. The second that Kaido understood G5's fighting style he started piecing Luffy up
What happened after kaido was “piercing” luffy? Yeah that’s what happened…which completely destroys your first point. The only reason why kaido stated to “pierce” luffy in gear 5th before bajrang gun was because Kaido took advantage of luffy’s awakening, the road to laugh tale databook tells us that in zoan awakenings the only disadvantage of it is when the nature of the Zoan takes over your body. In this case nika took advantage of Luffy’s body when he starts laughing and being goofy and nerfed Luffy. Which Kaido took advantage of, but when Luffy became serious, and controlled his zoan nature he literally overpowered kaido with bajrang gun despite being in a weaker condition. There’s no doubt gear 5th is stronger than kaido. Even kaido himself said to king in the flashback, the one who will defeat and surpass him is gonna be joyboy. Even the narrative says this and narratives > feats
False. His STRONGEST hybrid move was the death destroyer bagua and ALL he got out of it was cartoon ahh looking bump with some stars circling his head. Luffy ATE that shit like nobody's business. And overpowered him in his clash. Luffy definitely wins the rematch
@@ibrahimsurti4922 Kandali Dragon Swarm. Luffy is bleeding from the mouth from all those attacks. That could also be taken to when Kaido started adjusting to Gear 5’s unique abilities. Kaido’s attacks clearly still hurt. Oda wouldn’t insert a whole monologue from Kaido about how Haki can still overpower awakenings while bashing on Luffy (who’s very visibly in pain) just for the takeaway to be “Gear 5 takes no or very little damage from Kaido.”
I’m honestly curious about whether or not Oda will ever actually write a fight that’ll last days. As we get closer to the end that seems more like a feat he likes throwing around for hype rather than something we can actually see Luffy do in story. Closest we got to seeing a fight approaching that length was Luffy vs Katakuri right? But then again there is like the whole stamina being a separate stat so maybe Luffy won’t actually fight anyone who could last that long? Lol.
@@jonathandelgado3755oda will never 😂 cause it doesn’t even make sense for them to fight for days but real battles only lasts a few hours 😅 like what, unless kuzan and Akainu fought similarly to those two giants in pre time skip where they fight for few hours cause this shit ain’t adding up 🤷🏿♂️
@@Isis-wisdom Yeah honestly. A fight that long sounds like a headache to write, and maybe even to read. I don’t think we’re ever gonna see Luffy fight more than like, a day at most. Lol
@@faceless2930are you guys dumb. Kaido was getting Jump by the Super Novas, Minks, Yamato and Luffy got defeated multiple times so Luffy stands 0% chance 1 v 1 Kaido.
7:55 True, but again you have to consider the fight in it's entirety. We are talking a full on 1v1 zero breaks, there is no falling off of Oniganshima and getting some meat and rest before riding back up in a dragon when Kaido had almost no breaks during the whole raid. We are talking about who can outlast the other without any outside forces whatsoever and I don't think Luffy is quite there. I think it would be extreme diff for sure though.
Also you have to consider the fact that when Luffy awakened he was rejuvenated by his awakening. He was already defeated, but that gave him a push. In a current fight that is not the case anymore, since Gear fifth is already within his arsenal there will be no big awakening after defeat.
@@MrElliot1210 Would it really be THAT much stronger though? We haven't really seen evidence of that in Egghead. I'm doubtful the power and damage Luffy can deal would be significantly altered by being at full HP, same with Kaido. They would be fresher, but that's true of both opponents.
"you have to consider the fight in it's entirety". No you don't, and you really, really shouldn't. That's the one thing I had issue with people claiming Luffy isn't as strong as Kaido because he needed help. He only had help BEFORE the power ups. That doesn't count, why people think it should count is beyond me. The only parts we can really use to see who's stronger are the parts after gear 5th. Everything before that wasn't current Luffy, it may as well have been a different character fighting Kaido at this point.
The argument that Luffy was objectlively weaker and more damaged than Kaido is made unclear by the fact that G5 absolutely resuscitated Luffy in some form or fashion. You don't go from literally dying to tap dancing on Kaido's head without the active form giving him some level of physical recovery. G5 likely works like a booster, leaving base luffy in whatever state he was in originally, but giving him the capacity to fight like he's much more stable than he was prior, not just slightly alive especially given how much he could tank with the mode. Luffy is not weak and dying while fighting in G5, he is strong in exchange for exhausting his baseline self's energy while in the mode. You portray him as almost being dead once revived but you can easily argue that functionally he was in a fully capable state. We also have to consider that G5 in it's two portrayals gives off the idea that in an extreme diff fight he has to use it as a last resort given that both time's he's used it, it has left him extremely weakened the moment the form wears off, showing that it likely has a bigger drawback than G4 currently. Luffy needs to show that he can outlast Kaido's stamina in one go without being pressured to use G5 too early otherwise Kaido can auto win if he outlasts it. Kaido also still could have dodged bajrang as you implied in the video yourself. Whether or not he needed to use flaming drum dragon to get luffy to let go doesn't change the fact that he let go, giving Kaido the opportunity to avoid the attack and hit Luffy directly. We also know that Kaido has Future sight and is capable of speed matching Snakeman 1 for 1 in dragon form meaning that we know he holds back from being an efficient fighter as we saw over the course of the raid. While narratively that can imply that Kaido will screw himself over in a 1v1 for kicks and thus lose in the end (just like with the Bajrang clash and tanking many free hits), it also shows that physically he has the capacity to make his fights much more difficult for his opponents but he just doesn't rely on those gimmicks. Imagine the raid but Kaido fought more like Katakuri or Shanks in 1079, it would be one-sided and that has to be taken into account in terms of his true power, it can't be ignored just to focus on a hypothetical rematch. Does Luffy have the capacity to beat Kaido in a 1v1? Yes. Has Kaido shown that though his arsenal he has the capacity to win the majority of bouts? Imo, he has. Edit: I also think it has to be considered that as a pure physical specimen Kaido is unrivaled by all but Big mom. While Kaido is beatable, he is nearly irreplaceable in the world of physical feats, you cannot exchange him for any known character in the verse but BM and have them replicate what he did in Wano. Anyone with less physical endurance than Luffy is automatically getting overwhelmed just by the rooftop 5's attacks that Kaido pushed through. No one is getting their organs sliced, heart gamme knifed, insides crushed, body slashed, and Red roc'd and getting back up through pure tanking like Kaido did.
He can fight like he in good condition but the damage it still not ignored .from tanking thunder banguas ,using gear 4 (stamina) and even Yamato commented on luffy being barely able to stand up , and getting his head crushed by kaido.The damage he took effected the usage of gear 5 hence forcing himself to continue bit in the Lucci fight he didn't seem to be having his voice disappearing like kaido against so stamina shouldn't be a problem to him.
But mythical zoan awakening has a healing factor, it's part of his powers. So he could just be at low hp vs kaido at low mid hp and pop gear 5 after fighting in gears 1-4.
1- Having to fight for extended period of time with Yamato and then Zoro (Both fighting with ACoC) while spamming boro breaths and twister and a bunch of techniques is a big consideration. 2- Once Luffy came back to life his health got magically filled up with the reincarnation, otherwise he'd still be dead on the ground. If they fought again he wouldnt have access to the magic healing potion. 3- Your assumption that it isnt using stamina isnt solid enough. Plenty of DF users have complained about stamina usage related to overusing their fruit. Doffy and Kaido dont even have the same type of fruit. Yamato said that the flames are getting weaker as he got weaker, how would that make sense if hes not using any energy to maintain them. He already expended energy to summon and control the flames. You dont regain energy after a boro breath or w/e attack you do just because it missed and dissipated.
Zoro and yamato did a minimum amount of damage compared to the struggle luffy was giving him, zoro himself comments on how his attack was not enough. When gear 5 came back, he was still at low health, to the point that it temporarily deactivated, gears and haki drawin luffy. He didn't magically heal himself. He just had enough stamina in him to last the fight. Right after the fight, he went into a coma for about 2 weeks
I agree but he could have dodged, he himself told luffy to let go because he is not planning to dodge him, plus this a flying dragon bro, he could dodge easily
@@mahjoubadam1742 did you not watch the video? Morj clearly showed where Kaido tried to escape and couldn’t. He COULD NOT dodge that attack. He could have if Luffy didn’t have him grabbed, but he would have let his entire crew die in the process of being a coward from an attack. That goes entirely against Kaido’s character
@@john-olivierlukama1548 you think a half drunk mf who just saw someone the size of his toe grab lightning and swing him like a jump rope is rationally thinking he could get away with something like that? Y’all kill me😂
@@LuciidDreamzboth Luffy and Kaido thought Kaido could dodge it. If he wanted to dodge it, he’d dodge it. But it’s not in his character, so he never would.
The island was breaking apart because kaido's flame clouds were getting weaker. Yamato said so while talking to momonosuke when he was in dragon form trying to pull back onigashima and preventing it from reaching wano capital.
Fax it’s going extreme diff but kaido edging it out. Luffy healed mid fight as well. Also yamato states that kaido wasn’t 100 when Luffy got back up on the roof at that point.
@@travisealy3512no cap I don't even think it's gonna be that hard for Kaido if he is legit serious and knows Luffy has G5 and learns so much in battle. Kaido is gonna blitz Luffy
Regarding the flame clouds, I'm pretty sure Kaido getting injured by Luffy was actually causing them to weaken, which was pointed out by Momonosuke. That was the whole point of him trying to create his own flame clouds to hold the island up
one major issue here: 1. Morj makes the headcanon statement that Kaido was never at the ceiling of power in One Piece and then uses that as a fact to support his arguments. Literally everything in the story up until then said Kaido was either the strongest or among the strongest characters. I could win any argument if I made up some statement and used it as proof.
It is sorta unconfirmed but you also have to take it account with Kaido’s title. 1. It’s a title. Kaido could no more be “the strongest creature” than Usopp be a “god” or Robin a “Devil child” or Bellamy a “hyena.” Yeah they refer to traits but they aren’t meant to be taken COMPLETELY literally. 2. OP does make a point that characters tend to pin reputation on others and go with it. Like how Luffy was the “Fifth Emperor” but the opening of Wano showed he couldn’t actually hang with that crowd. Kaido being the strongest creature is most definitely an example of that since of all the top tiers he seemed the most active. 3. It IS a Shonen. Luffy was never gonna beat the strongest character in this series by the end of this arc. The power scale always escalates. He’s gonna come across someone who can throw him for a loop in a way Kaido couldn’t.
@@jonathandelgado3755 Morj has a point in that titles aren't everything, just because he's the world's strongest creature doesn't make him top 1. But he takes it way too far the other way and says Kaido isn't even in the top tier at all when there's no evidence for that at all.
@@fruitrings2238 Yeah I guess Morj got a little carried away. Or maybe he means Kaido is top tier but wanted us to “read in between the lines” and interpret his statements as him meaning to say that Kaido isn’t the absolute top 1 percent of the verse. But yeah idk it just comes off as him downplaying what Kaido is capable of.
And luffy would have had gear 5, also Kaido was taking the fight seriously against luffy at the end even though luffy was in a worse condition than kaido.. also i don't get this idea of kaido dodging luffy's bajarang gun... if kaido is "the strongest creature" then his flame bagua should've overpowered luffy's bajarang gun... In a true test of strenght between both characters towards the end of the fight, Kaido lost.
@@stilljakernoob he literally tells himself that he didn't finish him off, how that was a mistake and he should've taken his head. That's definitely "didn't finish luffy off" :)
But those times when he didn't finish off luffy was mid fight luffy, not end fight luffy. So if a rematch happened there would be no chance for kaido to "mess around" and not finish luffy off. Because Luffy wouldn't get knocked down like he did because he's strong enough to match kaido
I never thought about it, but it would make sense if the flame clouds and bird cage are one time energy burst, and once it’s set they just stay up passively. Unlike Law’s Room which does drain him. like Sugars ability to change people into toys. It stays up, but once sugar goes down the effect stops.
Morj I love your videos man but I gotta disagree on this one lol 1. Luffy after awakening ACOC still got K.O.’d by Kaido, before coming back with Momonosuke. Plus Yamato stalled in the mean time while Luffy healed up. If we’re talking purely from the moments Luffy awakened ACOC & not just solely the Gear 5th section 2. Kaido faught like 20 people, deliberately not dodging attacks (Unless it was Zoro) majority of the time 3. Chapter 1027 Yamato mentions Kaido is getting weaker due to Onigashima beginning to fall apart. So NO, he would not have gotten a power boost for the flames getting lifted if it already drained a portion of his stamina 😂 what’s lost is lost. That’s a disingenuous argument 4. Points are made here, however Kaido’s dialogue suggests he could have dodged once he got Luffy to let go but he simply chose not to. At the end of the day Kaido’s Flaming Drum Dragon was an avatar manifestation similar to King’s attacks (or even the Susano’o in Naruto). That still very much presents a very solid “what-if” scenario since he decided to take it head on A fresh Gear 5th Luffy vs a fresh Kaido would be HIGH DIFF for Luffy, AT BEST. And we’re not even factoring in Luffy’s current stamina for G5, he’s winded after fighting Lucci who he probably didn’t need G5 for
Luffy after mastering ACOC was matching Kaido blow for blow in base. The luffy that just awakened ACOC and the one who mastered (who was riding on Momo) are completely different. Morj is also talking about luffy from egghead fighting Kaido who has a better grasp on gear 5. It’s not like luffy was getting slapped until he used it either.
Kaido fighting and taking attacks from 20 ppl doesn’t mean much when by kaido’s own words they were all weak. Even ashura couldn’t even bring Kaido to his knees and just left a scar. Zoro himself was surprised by how little damage it actually did. Luffy is truly the only one who was dealt significant damage
Kaido’s dialogue suggesting he could still dodge doesn’t really change anything cuz luffy could still just grab him over and over again. Even if Kaido tries flying away luffy could just stretch his arm and grab him. Morj even shows Kaido doing his best to get rid of the arm before finally trying to match luffy’s attack since dodging would be pretty damn hard
We literally saw Momonosuke pass out after carrying Onigashima for like a minute lol, wym there’s no evidence Kaido was exerting himself by holding it up?
Morji tried to argue an island lv feat took no energy. Then tried to argue, lifting an actual island took no real effort. Then argue that the island lifting, which was made to directly show us kiafo incomparable might(took no effort) It was literally a shock value feat. Then tried to argue that moving the island ALL NIGHT WHILE FIGHTING SOME HOW TOOK NO EFFORT. Then argued that it got weaker because of kiado but somehow kisdo had no connection to its operation. Even if possible, it's unlikely and most abilities aren't the way he described the clouds. His evidence was luffy....who had weaker haki, won a haki clash after the clouds went out. No morj that's called plot, and bad writing. Oda isn't exactly known fir quality, "realistic" fights. I don't believe one piece fights if there's no health bars on the page.
The same Momo who was trying to drag the entire island using his physical strength the whole night? The same Momo who has 0 experience using flame clouds ? That Momo would be tired from making his own clouds to catch a falling island ? Really ?
Momonosuke had been in a state of high stress and panic for the last hour, and collapsed after having all that relieved. I don't know what there is to debate, we literally saw Kaido's flames removed and it had zero effect on Kaido's strength.
@@bobbob-zc1nx It's on you to prove that it was taking energy, not me. I provided a clear example at the climax of the fight that there was no difference in Kaido's strength between when he was lifting the island vs when he was no longer having to lift the island. It's not a hypothetical, it's already demonstrated in the manga that it had no effect. Please show me a panel that indicates that it was draining his strength.
@@MrMorjI love you, but one can sagely assume if the flames are getting weaker as kaido gets weaker the flames are attached to kaido's strength. Otherwise why would they get weaker as kaido gets weaker.
EXACTLY. People always bring up the breaks and the assists but fail to take in consideration that luffy did not have his current powerups before these breaks and was therefore losing. Gear 5 was also used on his last legs and fell unconscious after the fight as while on egghead 9 secs after defeating lucci luffy was all around and talking fine. Luffy is taking Kaido to Extreme diff post wano
I still have Kaido winning but at EXTREME High Diff because of the stamina part. Luffy with Conquerors would have to survive long enough and get enough damage in (he can't use Gear4 cause he'd run out of Haki) before using Gear 5. Otherwise we'd have a Doffy situation where Luffy runs out before he can finish him off
@@kidkouga92 I think Luffy still takes it. One thing that Morj didn't talk about in the video is that Luffy was able to use Gear 5 twice while literally being nearly dead. In perfect condition Luffy would perform much better, and if he gets so low to a point where the transformation wears off he can just use it again because we literally have seen him nearly dead transforming back to G5. The aging drawback seems to only happen after G5 is used, it doesn't seem to affect him while he's using it.
Might even be a high-diff Luffy win instead of extreme, because we need to factor in his absolutely insane growth rate, and he would 100% be growing further in a rematch.
Luffy and Co were chipping away at kaidos healthbar throughout the entire battle. Every break equals a luffy stronger then the luffy kaido had already beaten. The fact of the matter is luffy and CO WERE hurting kaido. Gear 5th luffy was just a last minute buff/80% heal for 1 last push. Without help and breaks. Luffy can't beat kaido. The fact that he can't maintain gear 5th for more then a few minutes already shows he isn't at that level yet
@Loki4real14in a fair fight with no plot armor. Luffy loses 90% of the fights he's jad in this series. Kaido would destroy him, the moment gear 5th runs out.
Morj I love ya butttt in my opinion using the luffy is dead argument = more damage is not accurate. Luffy sustained enough damage to kill him RELATIVE to his damage level. For example, a punch from Mike Tyson could kill a baby, but not me (hopefully 😅, well maybe). So the amount of damage to kill luffy might be lower then the amount of damage to kill Kiado. Does that make him stronger, who know?
I think this match up is more about stamina. Kaido Didnt get any breaks between the fights while luffy gets healed and has at least 2 breaks. I even argue that gear 5 consumes more stamina because after 10 minutes of using gear 4 he had to take a break and zoro took over and with kaido full power i dont think he will beat him in less than 10 minutes and gets a break to recover from that, even the short fight with luci (he doesn"t use gear 5 after that fight against the seraphim, which implies that he cant use it at the moment)he was tired and catching his breath while kaido has a lot more stamina to tank attacks than when he fought luffy. And I am not convinced of the damage argument because yeah if they had the same health that would be the case but they don't and i dont think luffy's strongest attack one shots kaido with full health.
Addition: Luffy fought against kaido with gear 4 while kaido didnt even enter his hybrid and lost his stamina and got his ass saved by zoro. Yeah he has a higher power output in gear 5 but he has at this moment in the manga not the stamina to take a full power kaido down before he changes back.
Okay my conclusion: Luffy's stats and power get a buff but his stamina not. And kaido with full power has more than enough defense and stamina to out last luffy in a fight in this moment of the manga.
G5 stamina is confusing to me. Luffy was shown basically emoting with G5 on Egghead island but after the Lucci fight we also saw him exhausted for a panel or two.
I think its simple , when Luffy goes out of Gear 5 he becomes that old man looking Luffy. It takes 30 seconds for him to get back to normal but if he wanted to go back in to gear 5th he could , as we saw in the Kaido fight.
@@latima123ify the thing is that luffy didn't become old looking man after he defeated kaido so either oda forgot about it or it only happens when he uses the giant mode
Kaido had Big Mom to fight the 5 supernovas on the roof, and everyone else you mentioned wasn't even there, he fought them at separate times. Considering the supernovas put up a fight I think Kaido would lose to them too if he fought alone against them at the same time. That being said, if Kaido does win against them, I would say Luffy does too then. Even if you think Kaido is still stronger, Luffy's at the very least comparable to Kaido in gear 5th.
@@chrislin6570 indeed ... But it's not like when Luffy came back in G5 he one shooted kaido ... Kaidou put up a great fight... The Current Luffy should have to match what kaidou did against G5
@@mehaplebypotatocalledtaqwa4773Do you think that if momo didn't tell yamato to stop fighting...And yamato went all out, Aramaki will low diff yamato essentially...
Yeah, I just don't see how saying "Kaido was never at the top level" and then using that as proof is an acceptable argument. Imagine trying to do that in a university paper or something, you'd get rejected so hard.
I think that's because a lot of people feel that Luffy can't have surpassed Kaido yet because he was called the strongest creature, and since the story isn't over, Luffy still has enemies he needs to overcome. By clarifying that Kaido wasn't necessarily the ceiling, it answers that point.
11:50 If you continuously pour water into a giant container and then the container gets destroyed so you stop pouring, do you immediately regain all the water? Nope, instead you just wasted a shit ton of water. Additionally, it was actually a pretty important plot point for both Momo and Yamato that the flame clouds get weaker as Kaido himself gets weaker. To the point of Momo suggesting that Luffy should stop fighting Kaido.
I agree overall with your consensus but to say that Doflamingos bird cage is the closest analogue is so disingenuous. Momo had the same fruit as Kaido and was trying to move the island and clearly, it required exertion.
if it’s 1 on 1 bet on the protagonist idiot. that’s the whole point of the series. eventually luffy will surpass and defeat everyone. by the end of wano he proved he became stronger than kaido
My main issue with that debate is that the durability of fresh Luffy and fresh Kaido is entirely up to Oda. They are both monsters in that aspect and Oda isnt that consistent when it comes to durability , however considering how many times Luffy was knocked down it should go to Kaido in theory. In terms of offensive power Luffy edges out Kaido but the gap isnt that huge. So it kinda becomes a game of do you think Luffy can hit Kaido more than the opposite in a fair 1v1 ? And it's hard to answer that when one of Kaido's trait is that he takes pride in tanking attacks.
Luffy was only knocked out that many times bc he was catching up to Kaido's strength the whole fight and cuz he got interrupted by CP0. Its like if Kaido with only Ryou had to fight G5 with advanced conquerors💀
Lol in a couple arcs ? So EoS Luffy is what it takes to beat Kaido? People overrate tf out of Kaido if he rematched Luffy right now Kaido is getting folded extreme diff. That’s the natural progression of Shonen MC. Luffy wouldn’t lose a single time either because he already knows Kaidos weakness and Kaido absolutely has no response to Bajrang Gun. This isn’t the same as Law, Kidd vs Big Mom. Luffy actually has what it takes to beat those monsters fairly 1v1
@@shirinauno he is right You don't seem to get gear 5......Luffy is damn near unstoppable in that form and if he went in that form from the start......kaido is gonna get humiliated
@@shirinauThat’s fine it’s your opinion. But what’s Kaido’s answer for Bajrang gun? Kaido takes stamina, durability and other stuff but what’s his answer for the final attack? Can a healthy Kaido and somewhat healthy Luffy finish Kaido with that? Can Kaido just casually tank that? Story doesn’t say so. Plus if Luffy does the same attack and connects on Kaido wouldn’t he be at the core of the earth again? Equals massive explosion?
i think morj makes a poor argument concerning the flame clouds not draining kaido. Maybe he forgot, but we have seen momonosuke struggle to even ASSIST kaido in lifting onigashima with the flame clouds, and vegapunk confirmed that momo's fruit is the same as kaido's, aside from its color. Even if you argue that kaido has more mastery(which is true) its undeniable that this drains stamina to some extent.
wtf does momonosuke have to do with anything ? we all know momonosuke is SIGNIFICANTLY WEAKER than kaido. just because they have the same df doesn’t mean they are equal in strength. the fact is that kaido could lift the island with no effort at all. it was never stated that keeping it up weakens him
@@whatts5507 " the fact that they have the same df doesnt mean theyre equal in strength" is something i already mentioned. I addressed the mastery argument before it was made and yet somehow you managed to completely ignore it while typing this.
@@Champ_7298 brother then what’s ur point ? ur contradicting urself. you are saying that we know it takes stamina to lift the island because momonosuke was struggling… why would u use momonosukes and his devil fruit as a comparison if u know that having the same df doesn’t mean equal strength ? ur not making any sense.
@@whatts5507 summoning flame clouds isnt really a matter of physical strength. Momo had to learn to do it, and it drained him. He needed proper devil fruit mastery. Kaidos physical strength is irrelevant, the point is that summoning and upholding flame clouds was shown to drain momonosuke, and would logically do the same to kaido, albeit to a lesser extent. Its not that momo wasnt "strong enough" he just has no control over his fruit.
13:20 I disagree, we see once Kaido activates his flame dragon attack Luffys hand is burned and he has to let go to blow it. There is no evidence at that point that Kaido can't just deactivate his move and dodge. Although still considering Kaidos character he wouldn't dodge this attack in the first place even in a rematch considering his pride. We see him tank many attacks in battle he didn't need to just because he wants to showcase his durability.
Kaido started to dodge luffy continuously after luffy grew in ryou. Kaido isnt trying to tank coc luffy to showoff. He gets hit because he is slower and he tanks because his defence is insane
@@ay3070 Continuously is just not true, he did dodge sometimes, but only when he was rattled by something new, or after already being hit by a ton of the same attacks, like when he dodged those Snakeman blows. Also the speed argument seems off considering that too, he turned into this massive dragon and with future sight was able to weave through and bite Luffy. So I wouldn't say Kaido is significantly slow or anything. Still though this isn't even a point that applies to Bajrang gun since it's such an easy attack to see coming and dodge especially when you can just fly away.
@@flamingfrenchfry2877 He could dodge Snakeman in a giant dragon form, you think he can't dodge a grab when Luffy is stationary getting ready to punch? My point is he could dodge the attack if he wanted too. But he wouldn't dodge a challenge of that sort anyway so this argument that Morj is responding is moot anyway.
@@pokekiller787x My guy kaido stopped tanking luffy intentionally since the fight with the supernova and you can say when his conquerors weakened kaido took hits when he was no longer effective. Kaido isnt slow but he isnt faster than luffy. A charged dash is faster than regular speed in one piece. Its why zoro s basic speed is slow but when he does a charged attack he reaches speeds comparable to very fast characters. Luffy is stromger than almost everyone and has a God fruit that is feared, while being a haki master. Akainu is not beating luffy, neither is old WB nor is kaido beating luffy because fighters bring out their true power despite their conditions surpassing their limits and his strongest attack was OVERPOWERED. Kaido has absolutely nothing to win against luffy besides hoping to outlast him.
No, I agree with Morj. I believe the flames like the birdcage are tied to your stamina and how much is left rather than it using it as in draining your energy. It's more like a marker or an indicator.
@@dionisionatbruh why do you spam that in every comment thread ? Your point doesn't really stand considering how Oda written and presented the scene regarding the clouds its like an apples and oranges discussion.
@dionisionat I'll answer it for you then. Think of the ability as one outside of the user so it no longer drains what was already initially used to create that ability. Now, If over time the person with said abilities stamia or life force starts to weaken then the ability will also fail.
I agree with most of what's said here. The only issue I have is with point 3. Yamato references Kaido's powers weakening in chapter 1027, with the flame clouds being unstable. Of course, it's still possible that his cloud related power are separate from his general combat abilities. For example, Luffy not being able to use haki after gear 4th doesn't affect his ability to stretch. So Kaido's use of his fruit abilities could follow a similar logic. Maybe it doesn't influence the argument that much, but it should have been brought up in my view.
The only characters that have a high chance of beating Luffy are Imu and Blackbeard, but a lot of people won't accept this and love to pretend that Luffy is still the underdog. We are in the final saga, wake up.
Luffy litteraly 2 tapped rob lucci, an awakened zoan without using any advanced type of haki lol. Mind u Lucci is now at least yonko commander lvl as people call it.
Chapter 1027 clearly shows holding onigashima uses some of kaidos strength and stamina as he is slipping on how much he can produce as the fight prolongs
Keep in mind that Luffy doesn't need to go to Gear 5 right from the start. I believe that just with Gear 4 and Advanced Conqueror's Haki, he could hold his own against Kaido and wear him down low enough to them kick to Fifth and finish him off.
@@zoovaado7759 zoro saved him the first time the second time he would have drowned and the last time was when he awakened Nika if not for plot luffy is getting folded sane thing happened against croc and Kat and Doffy his last clean win no help was against hody
@@zoovaado7759 the guy who was running out of Breath after clashing with Lucci? Granted he did beat lucci but he wasnt in the form long and needed time to recover
Kaido is interesting to power scale. Even though he’s extremely strong, he constantly sabotages his own strength. He drinks in the middle of battle. He avoided using future sight for the first half of the fight. He yearns for death. If Kaido had a better mindset and took the fight seriously, he could maybe win. But I don’t think it would be in character for Kaido to take this fight (or any fight) seriously.
Drinking saké doesn't sabotage his strength, it does the exact opposite by *strengthening* his haki, how do people forget this? Also Kaido *did* take his fight with Luffy seriously otherwise he wouldn't have acknowledged his strength and used his full power against the young pirate
Kaido still didn’t need to take that final hit. He ultimately *chose* to try and tank it rather than dodge and regroup. Luffy passed out after using it too, so if that attack had failed he’d have been toast. I really think that this points to the issue of Gear 5ths longevity being a pretty big handicap, at this point it seems like even moderate uses of it drain Luffy pretty badly afterward. Tbh this has been a staple of how Oda writes Luffy for a long time, there’s always a stamina issue associated with his strongest form at any given time to keep him from spamming it nonstop.
Luffy passed out bc they clashed, simply activating the move didn't make him pass out... Again, you aren't comprehending that if kaido activated fire dragon to make luffy let go and then fucking transformed into hybrid to escape the punch, luffy would have just grabbed kaido's ass again for the cycle to repeat itself.. Also, what makes you think kaido using his ultimate move wouldn't follow the same logic as luffy's... Let us say perhaps luffy was using bajrang gun and after missing he passed out - why would kaido be able to just fuck around and find out if he just wasted the remainder of his energy on that final transformation The bottom line is that kaido could not have simply escaped that attack and he would need to have defeated luffy in the clash, which he did not. Let us also consider how impossible it would be for kaido to just "dodge" an ISLAND sized attack from luffy.. We aren't talking aboit Gear 3rd levels of size, or some weak ass soft ass punch. Luffy pulled up with a fist greater in size than onigashima and even kaido couldn't blitz through that entire island in mere milliseconds.
During Luffy’s final round against Kaido he had the Awakened Zoan stamina boost. Awaking his Devil Fruit seemed like it replenished a lot of his “health bar”
So, is Kaido not an Awakened Zoan? Did he not have 40+ years of battle experience? Was Big Mom not on the rooftop for a good chunk of the fight? I think 'Bajrang Gun' overpowering 'Flame Bagua' is enough to prove Luffy is stronger than Kaido. Because both of them were at their limit. It wasn't like Luffy got a lucky hit, he caught Kaido and left him no way of dodging it. Just a bit before this, Luffy was hit by a comparable attack but it was because of an intervention. Kaido got a lucky hit but fate had other plans.
@@dionisionat It's name is Uo Uo no Mi Model: Seiryu (Azure Dragon) en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azure_Dragon Azure Dragon is a Chinese Dragon God. So no, your point doesn't stand.
It's literally stated by both fighters multiple times that Luffy is closer to death than Kaido is, even after Luffy gets Gear 5. Luffy had his health bar replenished, but not to Kaido's level.
The whole segment with Kaido dodging if he wanted to, i believe the only reason why he chose not to was because he WANTED to see if Luffy could overpower him in a clash instead. It would prove that Luffy is joyboy to him which seems to be what Kaido DESIRES. That doesn't make him stupid not wanting to dodge it. Kaido's philosophy is based off the fact that someone's worth equates to their strength on the battlefield, hence determining their place in the heircarchy. Kind of like Ryomen Sukuna from jujutsu kaisen. He believes in the same philosophy. That's why both of them felt lonely at the SUMMIT of peak strength
Love ya Morj but this aint it Chief 1) The element of surprise of G5 played a big factor. Kaido couldnt understand what was going on ( hell...even we couldnt)..Luffy got alot of licks in just by surprising Kaido with his wacky but powerful attacks. 2) Gear 5 awakeining def gave Luffy some hp back while Kaido kept all the licks he got from the beggining of the raid 3) Keeping the clouds up was def draining him ( even for 1%)...his main goal was still to crash land that thing so he had to keep it up.. 4) "Peak for Peak" G5 over Kaido but G5 shows major stamina consumption...and Kaido is a durability beast...for the duration of G5...Luffy would beat the shit out of Kaido but he would survive and stall it out...and he now knows about the whacky G5.
What you forget is that while Luffy had a "lower health bar", Kaido was basically using haki the entire time while Luffy had breaks to regenerate his haki. Yamato for example was not dealing heavy damage to Kaido, but Kaido had to use haki while Luffy was regenerating his own. That's a factor that clearly matters in this debate and is easily forgotten. There is evidence to support that Kaidos flames use up his stamina/strength. Onigashima crumbling was attributed to Kaido getting weaker by Yamato. While not a direct confimration there is a link between Kaidos strength and his flame clouds. We never see Doflamingos strings getting "less dense" or "weaker" because he himself was getting weaker. Also, Momo was out on the ground after lifting Onigashima for a short period of time, proving that it does drain your strength or at least your stamina. It's just that Momo's drained much quicker because obviously, he isn't Kaido.
It’s fairly clear also that g5 somewhat heals luffy otherwise he would still be on the floor unconscious just in g5. But Kaido has no recovery. You say luffy being unconscious before g5 shows he must be lower health I say it shows he must have healed to an extent for g5
I'm surprised people are missing this point, as even once Luffy has Gear 5th up I post several panels in the video of both characters acknowledging that even now Luffy's health is lower than Kaido's, and even now Luffy is about to die.
Clouds being reflective of Kaido's strength is not the same as Kaido's strength being used by the clouds. We already know Devil Fruit abilities disappear when the user is defeated (ex: Moria, Sugar), but that's not the same as those passive abilities actively draining their strength. We literally saw the flames being removed and it did nothing for Kaido's strength, meaning the idea that they were draining his strength is head canon.
@MrMorj You could be right, but I would note that Momo used the same ability for a short time and was exhausted afterward. He was perfectly fine just moments before. That suggests that it consumes stamina.
Morj what are you saying the flames were clearly used to indicate kaidos stamina was fading and he couldn't hold the island anymore....even momonosuke was totally exhausted after he moved the island out of Luffys way
I feel like you and morj are right. Honestly it doesnt seem like it affected him just like birdcage , it felt more like Oda showing us a visual indicator of Kaido throughout the fight.
@@adoniscreed4031 yeah momonosuke is clearly a novice with the power unlike kaido...but it shows kaidos mastery of his power that he can hold an island that long while still in a deadly battle
@Loki4real14 yeah exactly.. if your stamina drops and your performance in an activity reduces ..it means that activity itself needs some energy to be maintained
Before even watching the video yes he would. Luffy was near death when he overpowered Kaido’s strongest attack. It’s true that Kaido used his powers to lift the island but we have no idea how much it was effecting him. We only know that the Island was weakening shows that Kaido was getting weaker due to what luffy did. Either way Luffy beating Kaido near death is a way better feat. Another thing is that Luffy for a lot of the fight was playing around with Kaido and turning him into a jump ropes. Kaido himself said “ you can play all the games you want” when stating that Haki transcends all! He also noted that Luffy was weak to slicing attacks implying that the other attack were not doing much to Luffy at all. This would make sense considering that many of Kaido’s attack that were done to Luffy weren’t taken seriously at all. It was like a looney toons character getting beat up but not really taking any damage at all. If Luffy and Kaido where at full hp Luffy would high diff him at best. Stop underestimating Joy boy!
People vastly underestimate the shock absorption that Luffy’s DF give him. While Kaido’s defense makes him take less damage, Luffy is mitigating massive portions of the damage he takes. It’s a toss up because Kaido did say that Luffy was integrating all forms of Haki seemlessly with his DF. Kaido still doesn’t really get his awakening.
My main argument for a rematch is that Kaido would take him a lot more seriously since he knows he can lose and won’t be so haughty. He will dodge instea of tanking and actively use his future sight more
It's not a matter of if Luffy would win or lose. Its a matter of WHY would Luffy win, and the reason why he would is as ridiculous as the fact that he did
@@lucasferrary3941 ok i reread it and i understand, you know going into a fight he will win but you dont know how he will do it although i disagree he does lose fights sometimes
Those saying Luffy would win really doesn’t understand shit in the one piece. You say Luffy was more tired after the awakening than Kaido, on what basis you came up with that conclusion? Because he became old and fall? The same literally happened against Lucci and the main reason he fell because it his first time awakening and it does consume a big energy on him, that why it happened against Lucci as well. Finally before Luffy awakened Yamato literally said that Kaido is heavily wounded. Use your brain and not just be biased because you like Luffy!!
One point to add about the last clash was that Kaido's dragon form is his most defensive form. Him going down while in this form further tells us how OP bajrang gun is.
Very well presented and argued video, thanks. I think the argument about the flames is that they have been draining his stamina over time, not that they are at the moment a huge offset in his strength. Releasing them at the end does not undo the loss from earlier. The counter to this is that Kaidou's regen might be counteracting the cost, but then it is also possible that he might have never taken net damage at all if he were not also maintaining the island. It takes a lot of energy to carry an island, a lot more than the attack potency of most attacks used on Kaidou. Definitely would like to see more videos similar to this one.
But I doubt he can hold gear fifth long enough to truly beat a full health Kaido. The moment he loses gear 5, it's over. But I guess current Luffy's overall stronger than Kaido, especially if Kaido underestimates him.
While it is incredibly debatable, there is one factor I feel also needs to be accounted for, it’s that closer to death doesn’t exactly mean same damage taken, for example Kaido would’ve been left able to keep fighting after tanking much stronger hits and much more damage than a regular person, like for example Kuma nearly killed Zoro but the same amount of damage wouldn’t have killed Luffy or Kaido even assuming their body was in the same state. Key example, while some characters can be knocked out and stop fighting, other characters still keep fighting even with a massive sword wound across the body. So while Kaido was still more capable of fighting and was at a higher level of health, he also has higher endurance and higher health than Luffy did in the 1st place. If the 2 had the same amount of max health in their “full health-bar” and endurance, and Luffy beat him while at a lower level it would be direct, however Kaido undeniably tanked much more damage which would’ve killed Luffy. Basically what I’m saying is, the main reason for why it’s so debatable is that Luffy had a lower health percentage, while Kaido’s max health was so high that the damage he took in total was greater than what Luffy tanked. So, the most important factors we take into account here is that 1. Now that his awakening has already occurred, we aren’t sure if he could take lethal damage and revive in a rematch the way he did. 2. Kaido’s physical strength still surpassed Luffy’s by the end, as you said now that he has it awakened, even if he was fresh with access to gear 5, now that Luffy doesn’t have the leisure of having time to come back as he doesn’t have any ally to keep the fight going until he comes back into it, Kaido at full health going against Luffy is a tough challenge. Even though Luffy has access to gear 5 now without needing to take lethal damage 1st, this also means he doesn’t necessarily have the backup of awakening his fruit again to revive him in the event of a rematch. Meaning if he’s knocked out in a 1v1 with no revival and no team to stall, he effectively loses even if he eventually wakes up. 3. Kaido took SO MUCH to take down, the amount of stamina he had to use, the amount of damage he had to take to eventually fall was absolutely absurd, and with the limitations to Luffy’s gear 5, his major differences is that in exchange for losing his extra life and backup, he has access to higher power earlier on, and can use gear 5 earlier on though he might not want to do so too early in the first place. It’s extremely debatable, but I think Luffy with advanced Haki wouldn’t be able to take Kaido down to a low enough level, until Luffy has already been taken too low, only for Luffy to use gear 5 too early and be outlasted or too late and still be outlasted due to either him taking too much damage or Kaido not taking enough before gear 5 comes into play. Basically, the only way I could see Luffy winning is with perfect timing where Kaido was damaged just enough, and Luffy still has enough health and stamina in the tank, that his gear 5 works just like it did during their 1st fight. Still though, despite it being extreme diff, I still think Luffy needs a little more time to improve with gear 5 before I see him truly at least 60-70% chance of winning against Kaido, because currently I’d say 30-40% chance.
Kaido not carrying an island means he could out endure gear 5. EDIT: let’s be very clear here, gear 5 outclasses kaido which is why I said “out endure.” This battle is one of attrition and luffy will probably end up killing himself in this fight. Morj literally agrees with this sentiment if you watch till the end. Be better guys
We can go to in-story route (a.k.a oda's intention) Kaido's feat that 1v1 always win is meant to be broken by luffy anyway. Idk why so many people always undermine luffy's achievement, this also happen when luffy got 1.5 bil bounty and mfs salty about it
Because it wasn’t a real 1v1 you can’t expect people to fully count the win after all that help and getting knocked out and basically dying the last time on the island
@@whatts5507 it doesn’t matter it’s still 5v2 from the beginning and then BM and Kaido got separated my point still stands there was always someone or multiple people fighting Kaido he never had a break all while holding up an island be real
@@HoFMiddy brother the “holding up an island” has nothing to do with the fight. otherwise oda would have mentioned it. the fact is that once luffy unlocked gear 5 he surpassed kaido. it’s not my fault ur grasping at straws trying to discredit luffys growth and achievements.
@kollen5952 you're literally proving the point that the ability isn't passive. Same with doflamingo why wouldn't the bird cage continue if he was knocked unconscious if it was truly passive.
@@lopes531I don't really remember using DF powers weakening someone (Correct me if I'm wrong). It's usually the awakening that's taxing to the body. Even Luffy only suffered consequences when he was using Gears which are probably linked to his Awakening as just as Chopper's monster points are. And if that's true then that would mean the flame clouds (were used by Momonosuke) should not tax Kaido unless Momonosuke has awakened hia fruit as only the color is different.
People forget Luffy also didn't defeat doflamingo alone. Law also fought him beforehand. And also that Kaido wasn't the only one injured, Luffy was too, he fought Kaido 3 times and got defeated before eventually winning, and he also fought Ulti, Apoo and a few fodder before getting to the roof.
@@dajmendz205 It's not about he tired he got from fighting them, it's about how they damaged him. Apoo landed an explosion on Luffy and Ulti headbutted him into a wall. It wasn't much to defeat him, but it's something. Also don't forget he was working really hard in prison and was infected by queen's plague, and literally just recovered from it.
Luffy didn't need Law to win against Doflamingo. The minute Luffy revealed Gear 4th Doflamingo became fodder. Maybe the anime made it look more even, but in the manga Luffy's power was devastating Doflamingo. Oda even mentioned a while back that if the citizens weren't there to help Luffy that he would've run around and hide until he could recover after Gear 4th ran out the first time, just like it happened in Whole Cake. Luffy just let them help him since it was convenient.
@@redragon88 okay but that's exactly my point, it was the same with Kaido. The minute Luffy gained gear 5th he could handle him, maybe not completely overwhelm, but it could be enough to win the fight without anybody's help from the get go.
Excellent excellent points. I keep bringing up all these points this discussion. One counter point I admit though. We do know the flame clouds affect Kaido to some extent as Momo was completely exhausted in his efforts to create the flames and push against Kaidos. We also know Kaido’s flames got weaker as the fight progressed. Still I doubt any of that makes up for the exhaustion Luffy was dealing with.
@@maxmoon4138 Actually once the island lands Momo appears to be completely exhausted. Granted could just be stress or creating the cloud, but he was one exhausted dragon afterwards. Momo isn’t the best indicator as he was new to the fruit though, but he does prove there’s some energy lost in at least creating the flame’s & potentially upkeep as well. However it’s impossible to tell how much or how little that was affecting Kaido.
I think fresh Kaido versus fresh Luffy would be a spectacular 1v1 and that it could go either way. Luffy *could* win that fight, but he could also lose it. I think how it actually goes down would be dependent entirely on what was necessary for the plot at the time of such a fight.
Pretty good, although the holding up the island argument you chose cherry picks the parts based on a guess on what nay sayers might think to better support your argument. The most prevalent point on holding up the island is Momo's inability and exhaustive effort to try to hold up the island himself. While for Kaido it's seemingly passive and negligible. I personally don't think it affected Kaido's strength at all in the fight, but to ignore that is ignoring the information given that supports the opposing perspective.
Gr8 point that w Gear 5 Luffy w less hp beat Kaido. I hadn't thought of it like that. Ifl gear 5 almost makes Luffy near-invincible except for cutting atk's
Though I agree with your major point.. Wasn’t there a major implication that the flames were weakening as he was getting weaker? Yamato said it several times and suggested if he gets knocked out the island will fall
Luffy >. The evidence is there but just even if you ignore evidence the author's intent is for Luffy to surpass his enemies by the end of the fight. When Oda has Luffy say "I'm gonna surpass you" that's exactly what he intends to happen.
the biggest question to consider is weather or not we think luffy can make up the damage done to kaido by other forces while surviving all the damage kaido did to him. and then there’s the matter of all the other damage kaido dished out (vs the sn, the scabbards, etc) luffy would now have to face.
Forreal , this is the exact question we should ask to ourself if we want to question about Luffy's and Kaido's strength at the end of Wano. Morj says that Luffy clearly had a lower health because he died, while Kaido was just heavily injured, but why doesnt he talk about Luffy full recovery and still die after facing Kaido ? Also Luffy had to end it with a giant punch, because he knew Kaido won't go down despite all the efforts and the awakening. When Luffy fought Lucci, he was extremely exhausted after he turned off the G5. Frankly, I cannot see Kaido going down that quick in a second round against Luffy. Also Morj says Kaido was not the ceiling of this World, while I hardly can't see someone taking that much of dmg Kaido took and still be able to decimate everyone. Not to mention, nobody would survive if they fall from sky island, or even take the Bajrang Gun
Not only is it explicitly stated that kaido was losing grip on the island as the fight went on, we also saw momonoske struggle to use the clouds. Like chapter after chapter of him clearly physically struggling while trying to move the island with the clouds. Oda couldnt have made it clearer if he beat you over the head with an idiot stick, which apparently be should have done. But i imagine even that wouldnt be enough.
Momonosuke literally JUST turned into a goddamn full fledged Dragon and didnt know what he was doing... you clearly came out of the womb knowing how to walk, read and write by the looks of it 😑
I think another thing that might make fans resistant to the idea of Luffy being stronger than Kaido is just the question of-who can challenge him then? Between Aokiji and Akainu, Roger, Whitebeard, and Garp, the implication is that after a certain point the top tiers sorta level out. And that makes sense since the Elder Stars are always hung up on the balance of powers. If Luffy could beat someone on that level and there’s STILL more story to go, can we expect any future fights to be as good or have as much back and forth? Yeah Luffy activating cheat codes and being unstoppable is cool for a while but after a bit there’s an expectation that he’ll struggle again to keep things exciting.
If Oda wrote it, yes. Luffy probably isn't ever going ever going to lose again. The only times that happened was Sabaody, and technically he didn't lose, because he was actually being saved. And also his first clash with Kaido. Beyond that, even if Luffy goes down, he's back a couple hours later to win (Crocodile/Katakuri/rooftop Kaido). So yea, my money is on the strawhats steamrolling the final arc with no casualties (because if Nami can survive a direct haki headbutt from an enraged ancient zoan user in hybrid form, she can survive anything.)
Idk about the last point the anime and manga show Kaido switching between forms especially into hybrid form almost instantly. So to say he couldn’t switch back in time doesn’t seem right, I think if your going to go that route then it’s more likely to be an honor thing. I also think Kaido is simply rusty in the way that he doesn’t realize how much or little strength to use when attacking bc he hasn’t had to go all out in so long. He also probably doesn’t think anything can kill him, in his mind he was going to tank that Bajrang gun like so many other strong attacks
The thing I’m confused about is how did lucci awaken his df but kaido didn’t? Yeah he’s got the hybrid form but that’s not awakened. Lucci and kaido have the same devil fruit but different animals obviously. Do you think lucci would give kaido a run for his money or it’ll be a low diff W for kaido?!
The best explanation I could think of for Kaido possibly not being awakened is that maybe his personality was incompatible with the fruit. Kaido said that Awakenings occur when the users mind and body catch up to the fruit, not the other way around. From my understanding, the Azure dragon is depicted as benevolent. Pretty much the exact opposite of Kaido. And the Elder Stars stated that Zoan fruits have a will of their own. So maybe Kaido didn’t awaken his fruit because it actively rejected Kaido? We also have Luffy, who is fun, carefree, and a freedom fighter. Just like Nika. And Lucci, who is a predatory killing machine, like a leopard. So maybe Kaido really couldn’t awaken while someone like Lucci could because his personality just wasn’t the right match?
This is basically head canon at the this point so bear with me. Based on what I’ve seen in the manga and the anime, I’m lead to believe that awakening a mythic zoan grants access to the man-beast form. As far as we know Orochi did not have man-beast form, Momonosuke also doesn’t have man-beast form and I’m fairly certain neither of them have awakened their devil fruits.
I have problems with all the arguments in this video. You yourself said Luffy was at zero after Kaido killed him, so we have no idea how large the recovery boost he got from Awakening was. He was definitely tired during the Gear 5th fight, but we already know from Egghead that that's just a natural side effect of using the ability. Kaido's flame clouds also definitely take up stamina. We saw it when Onigashima started crumbling dozens of chapters before Kaido's defeat, with Yamato saying it was because Kaido was weakening. We also saw Momo being clearly tired after using the flame clouds on Onigashima just for a bit. Kaido also clearly could get out of the Bajrang Gun's way if he wanted to. When he turned into his Flame Drum Dragon form, it was so hot that Luffy lost his grip on Kaido. And really, you yourself said it at the end. Luffy is only beating Kaido in Gear 5th. But how is he going to do that without outside assistance if Gear 5th takes so much stamina? The Bajrang Gun alone knocked Luffy out cold for weeks, even before he knew it had finished Kaido off.
Great video Morj, however you're wrong about Luffy being dead meaning he took more damage than Kaido. As that can just mean Kaido can take damage that would kill Luffy and not be as affected. Which is backed up as Kaido later fights a Conquers infused Gear 5 which has way stronger attacks than either Luffy attacks pre "death" or Kaido attacks at that killed him, Kaido used several stronger attacks afterwards that wouldn't kill himself if he tried
Oh and your wrong about the Flame clouds not taking Stamina from Kaido as once he starts to get tired fighting he could no longer sustain the Flame clouds If it didn't take Stamina then him being tired wouldn't matter or affect the flames And Yamato clearly stated she could tell he was tired as the flames got weaker
And yes Kaido flames being out out not giving him strength is also not valid as they dont return to him they are just diminished and he would need more to Stamina to replace them
@Loki4real14 duh he was tired fighting Luffy , but Yamato wasn't watching them fighting when she noticed that the Flame clouds were weakening and made her assessment that Kaido was weakening too I'm not saying the flames are the only or main thing that made him tired but diu to him being tired he couldn't keep them up
@Loki4real14 But I would say yeah it takes Stamina to maintain so gradually over time the flames was weakening once he ran out of the Stamina to sustain it due to fighting Luffy the flames went out (and the at first small task of using the flames to lift the island for so long) It's like Using very little strength to hold a bottle of water while doing an extreme work out. over time you will run out of energy to hold even just the bottle But the bottle isn't the reason your tired but your too tired to hold it
I think a potential way to think of the flame cloud is this: it took some of Kaido's power to summon the flame clouds initially, but after that it takes negligible effort to control them. Kaido is probably limited by how much flame cloud he can summon at once, but not much besides that
This is how I've seen it as well. It never came across as a constant "channeled" ability, but rather a single activation the takes an initial amount of effort to use.
Its funny how you say no to these (weirdly picked) 4 points, just to destroy these statements with the last you bring up: stamina. Stamina is what gives all these points a yes. Long battles with lots of enemys, heavy injuries & the clouds (which we DO learn from Momo are hard to create and keep up); they all drained Kaidos immense stamina. Which the clouds out of all prove the most as their dissapearence shows how Kaido couldnt keep em up/recreate em anymore and how they got weaker over time as Momo got able to pull and take control over them. So its fair to assume that Kaido, even less injured than Luffy, suffered a lot more loss; not in hp but in bringing his Stamina down "from a beast to a human". This brings us to the 4th point of Luffys big attack. And with the previous analysation and looking at Kaidos character, the question isnt if Kaido would ever dodge, but if he would be able to sustain it and stand up again in a "normal" fight. (i think yes) And lastly the most important point of rematches, that you didnt even mention: experience. We saw Kaido adapting to gear5 before the knockout, hes a skilled fighter and learns fast. And his claims make clear he wouldnt forget Luffy. So in the end we come to similar conclusions: Luffy could never win a fair 1v1 against Kaido. Stamina, time (gear5), experience; 3 major things all won by Kaido.
Kaido doesn't necessarily gets a power power up when his flame go out because it could be like someone having a heavy bag on thier shoulder for a while and when they put it down don't get a burst of power, they are still exhausted because they carried the bag. Personally if they fought now without Luffy getting more power ups, helps, plot armor and breaks to go eat and replenish like (always) i think kaido would win but it'll be high or extreme diff
The onigashima flames are definitely not a big deal but I think an argument for it being at least some little of concern is that when kido was pummeled the flames at the end started flickering, suggesting it took some concentration at least to keep them up but it is obvious that this was not a big deal
Interesting arguments but kinda disagree on this one. Luffy's health is so all over the place during the fight it's hard to say for sure how low it was in the last stretch: he got knocked out after he took Kaido's first attack, then he was completely fine, he got knocked down a second time and almost drowned, he ate some meat and he was fine... Sure he was on the verge of death in 1043 but can we really know how much the awakening healed him? The flame clouds are probably passive, I agree, but than again a link between Kaido's strenght and the clouds was established so who knows. And lastly I personally took Kaido's decision to face Luffy's attack head on more as a character moment from him than that he had no other way to let Luffy let go. And finally, assuming that Luffy would go full strenght from the first moment of the fight is pretty out of character, if we do that we should also assume that Kaido would go full strenght and using all his abilities. In that case I think Luffy would put up a very good fight, but still lose
The panels I posted during the health section establish that Luffy's health is still lower than Kaido's at this point, and that Luffy is still on the verge of death. Both Luffy and Kaido verbally acknowledge this.
@@MrMorj thanks for the response man, been a big fan for quite some time. Even if I disagree with this take I still think these powerscaling videos are great, people can get toxic in the comments but the engagement is fun as hell. And good luck with your car! I mean it's a good point, but even after that panel Luffy went back to the fight in an apparently pretty good shape: laughing and jumping around, tanking one attack after the other and landing big ones as well. So, even if temporary, the recovery he got by going gear 5 again is pretty influential and, as i was saying, we don't really have a good measure to determine how much that recovery was. In general I don't think healthbars are that relevant, especially considering how much characters can arbitrarily tank and how fast and out of the blue they can recover from fatal situations
Biggest argument people seem to be holding on to is that "the flames were going away as Kaido was getting weaker, therefore the flames must be using his strength". The "therefore" in that argument is head canon. It is very literally not based on anything, and it actually contradicts prior knowledge of devil fruits and what we are literally shown in the fight. It is already established that a Devil Fruit user's passive ability will go out if they are defeated (see Moria, Sugar, etc). It is never established, or even implied, that these passive abilities are actively draining the users' strength. Similarly, all we are ever told about Kaido is that his flames reflect his stamina, but nothing suggests that it is using his stamina. However, there is *one* clear moment where we can literally see whether or not the flames were affecting his strength, which is during the final clash where Kaido's flames are conveniently removed. In a clash of their strongest attacks, Kaido is no longer having to hold the island. It is shown that it makes literally zero difference, removing the flames doesn't make Kaido suddenly get stronger, Oda doesn't even show it having *any* affect on him, and Luffy actually overpowers him shortly afterwards anyway. So where is this imaginary argument of the flames draining his strength coming from? Can you show me Kaido getting stronger after the flames were removed, as Kaido fans claim he would have been?
Lorj, I don't care about your click-baity power scaling point, however I care about your arguments. If he uses energy to maintain the flames, not maintaining the flames anymore only allows him to not spend some of the energy he has left, it does not give him back all the energy he spent previously. How did you came with such nonsense Lorj ? When you carry a rock for an hour and then drop it, you don't get stronger, you are just able to use the energy you still have. What a dimwit reasoning, I am disappointed Lorj.
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The 2 biggest flaws in this video are the Kaido was less injured than Luffy and Kaido holding up Onigashima wasn't relevant.
1. Luffy "dying" is irrelevant since he got healed and got back up with an awakening, which the Impel Down guards are known for. Plus, the number of attacks from Kaido that Luffy took pales in comparison to the number of attacks Kaido took from Gear 5, Gear 4 ACoC Luffy, Yamato, and Zoro. Even excluding Yamato and Zoro, you can literally just count the number of attacks Kaido tanked, which number way more than Luffy. Kaido basically only got 2 good hits on Luffy, which were the Ragnarok and the final attack pre-Gear 5, Luffy got many more attacks on Kaido. No matter how you slice it, Kaido took more damage than Luffy. We're also talking about what would happen if Gear 5 fought Kaido, not Gear 4, which means that the increased stamina and endurance from Gear 5 is what we'll see if they have a remarch.
2. Kaido holding up Onigashima HAS TO be relevant. Imagine he holds up literally the entire One Piece world. By your logic, this should be easily doable and wouldn't make Kaido weaker at all, which simply doesn't make sense, he clearly has a limit. Nobody is saying the flame clouds were so incredibly taxing that it made Kaido noticeably weaker, it's just that carrying it for so long and while fighting chips away at his strength little by little. Yamato even notes that as Kaido has gotten weaker, the flame clouds started getting weaker as well. And the worst part of your video is when you say "In their final fight, the flame clouds got put out, so it must not be relevant" as if the existence of the flame clouds was relevant at all. No, it's what the flame clouds DID. By that point in the fight, Kaido had already been carrying Onigashima for hours, so it had already drained Kaido's stamina for hours, the damage was already done. It's like putting out a fire after it burns everything inside a house and saying the fire wasn't relevant after it was put out. If anything, the fact that the flame clouds were put out should make Kaido weaker, since those clouds are a part of his dragon form. Kaido could just absorb back those clouds and get stronger if that is how it works. The flame clouds most definitely had drained Kaido, but not by much, but since he was holding it up for so long, it must've weakened him at least a little.
Overall, the conclusion of Kaido
More power scaling videos need to happen LoL. I like power scaling
Was english your first language?
Morj your right, realistically speaking, I can see the Luffy of today fighting solo against Kaido (It would be a high-diff fight), and winning. My only personal gripe, is just how slightly unsatisfying it feels. Luffy's been a pirate, for what three maybe four years max, and he's already catching up to seasoned pirates, who have been at this for decades. And worst of all it feels like he's the only one advancing at such a fast rate, none of his other rivals are getting that strong that quickly. I mean look at kid and law, you wouldn't say after defeating big mom that kid or law are stronger than her now individually, hell they still probably struggle to defeat her teaming up if they ever fought again
Great video Morj, however you're wrong about Luffy being dead meaning he took more damage than Kaido.
As that can just mean Kaido can take damage that would kill Luffy and not be as affected.
Which is backed up as Kaido later fights a Conquers infused Gear 5 which has way stronger attacks than either Luffy attacks pre "death" or Kaido attacks at that killed him, Kaido used several stronger attacks afterwards that wouldn't kill himself if he tried
100 out of 100 timelines Kaido is taking Luffy’s final attack head on, it’s just in his character. Fighters are more than just stats
Yeah, and Luffy as a fighter always wins in the end, so...
@@derrickmiles5240Not always
@@wearemusichq1417 You talking bout' Akainu? Akainu doesn't count, because Luffy didn't really lose a fight against Akainu. He got knocked out by the shock of Ace dying. Maybe you mean Kuzan? But with that Luffy wasn't trying to win. He intentionally sacrificed himself to save Robin. Magellan? Luffy escaping Impel Down with half the prisoners was a big L for Magellan, so you could say Luffy did win in the end, as his goal wasn't to fight Magellan, but to reach Marineford.
Kuma has entered the chat
@derrickmiles5240 you said fight not achieve the goal, so going by fighting, he did lost to Magellan cause he couldn't beat him like he did the jail beast he lost to Kuma, and he lost to kuzan you can try again thou
Would Kid and Law beat Big Mom without plot armor, volcano and bombs?
Hell nah
Absolutely not.
@@bubbisvalinot a chance yet for either of them, they’ll give her a run for her $ but overall victor is MAMA!
100% sure they wouldn’t. Same for Luffy.
They literally HAD to push her off the island cause they cant beat her the normal way.
Morj is correct here, but imo it's simpler than that. It's a little crazy to think of Luffy as an underdog, when he's been framed as an unstoppable monster since the beginning of the series. Things are more intense or drawn out now, but the formula from East Blue is still the same. A victim feeds Luffy, Luffy calls out their enemy even though he has no business fighting someone that strong, Luffy goes down, gomu-ningen "bounces back", Enel_Shocked_Face.jpg.; enemy gets punched off the map. Throw a "Kaizoku-ou ni, ore wa naru!" somewhere in the middle and a party at the end. That's just how One Piece is. Luffy is a magical crackhead who ignores "power-scaling". Trying to logic your way through it is as pointless as trying to convince Luffy not to do something stupid.
Shanks crew mates call him the unstopable.monkey monster in chapter 1055.
@@darrenraphael lol exactly. On paper he should NOT win but Luffy never gets the memo. Even as far back as Crocodile, his wins don't make sense, but that's why he's our boy.
Perfect way of putting it. Reading this Comment genuinely got me hyped 👌
When you are the protagonist who is destined to become the strongest, of course you are an unstoppable monster... But in a vacuum he would have lost to many characters in a clean fight.
"Magical Crackhead". Someone watched Mugiwara no Goofy's videos and I wholeheartedly agree.
They 100% explicitly state that Kaido holding up Onigashima was a drain on his stamina. When Momo first goes to try and move the island Yamato says the island's mass was becomimg unstable due to Kaido getting tired & his clouds starting to dissipate as a result.
Also, Kaido wouldnt get a strength boost once the clouds dissipated that wouldnt make sense at all. You dont get the stamina back you've expended just because you stop doing the strenuous activity.
I think it would mean that he could use that energy he was using to keep up the clouds for something else like fighting luffy. He wouldn't get anything back but he would stop wasting what little he already had on keeping the clouds up
Bullshit because he bear Kaido in a fair match. Even after he got shot by Guernica and almost die. Kaido didn't hold up Onigashima read the Manga
Tired from fighting Luffy. Not tired from holding the island. That scene was intended to show that Luffy was making progress fatiguing Kaido. It was not stating that carrying the island was tiring Kaido
While you wouldn't get the energy back, the strain would be off your shoulders, it's like going from 50 to 20kgs
hope you lots are aware that bajarang gun was a move capable of destroying an entire island(Onigashima) no one and i mean absolutely no one(except that weapon used on lulusia). is capable of that, no thunder baguas, no divine depature, no gura gura no mi, no ikoku sovereignity..... nothing. bajarang gun so far in the series is the strongest attack by any character in One piece... there's no way kaido was strong enough to tank that move or produce an attack capable of deflecting it... also the punch was as big as the ISLAND.. how fast do you think kaido can fly, to fly away from a punch that big.
Morj ain’t slick, he releasing a Luffy Wano related video to distract us from the fact he ain’t release THE Wano video we been waiting for
The flames were using Kaido’s strength as in chap 1027 Yamato says Kaido is getting weaker cuz the some of the Onigashima was falling. This also means that Kaido got weakened because of the team effort and not luffy alone
No, I agree with Morj. I believe the flames like the birdcage are tied to your stamina and how much is left rather than it using it as in draining your energy. It's more like a marker or an indicator.
Team effort ? You mean the all poweful conquerors users scabbards ? Lol kaido DIDNT even bother using hibrid form to those weaklings. Law and kid ? They did 1 attack each to kaido lol.
@@kollen5952kaido didn't use hybrid for oden so is oden weak?
@@kollen5952 whatever u say at the end of the day they did damage Kaido cuz this was said before the true 1v1 between luffy and yamato begin
Even if you underestimate the hits from Law & Kid, Yamato and Zoro damaged kaido. Same as the scabbards who can use Ryou.
I have been saying this, Kaido was going all out on gear 5 Luffy hitting him directly to the head but still couldn't do anything to Luffy, take Katakuri for example he did way better vs a new transformation than Kaido. I wanted to see Kaido do the same thing but he simply couldn't.
I would counter with the fact that luffy did run out of steam and kaido in full Health would not have lost the power struggle leaving luffy with absolutely nothing.
@@XMoeiskingXluffy was still in pain even though is body was taking kaido's weapon shape. The moment kaido was taking about haki being the the best asset, they xere pretty much evenly matched. Luffy really surpassed Kaido at the bajrang gun clash as he straight up overpowered him.
You’re acting like Luffy was 100% okay afterwards like in his fight with Lucci. A Kaido that went through all that damage was still able to match him (and overpower him)
@@obmis_arraid21 huh? No lol he didn’t overpower him. Kaido was exhausted and luffy had plot. Luffy gear fifth ran out once mid fight. Kaido has this hands down
@@obmis_arraid21how are you so sure ? Didn't hear say this is the best he has ever felt ? Drums of Liberation apparently restores your stamina and puts more gas in the tank
Fresh Kaido vs Fresh Luffy goes to Kaido. People act like G5 was completely washing Kaido or something because of its hacks. The second that Kaido understood G5's fighting style he started piecing Luffy up
✅️✅️
Show me the damage clown
Even with Coc he could not even make gear 5 bleed....he did that to gear 4.....but gear 5 took kaido as a joke
What happened after kaido was “piercing” luffy? Yeah that’s what happened…which completely destroys your first point. The only reason why kaido stated to “pierce” luffy in gear 5th before bajrang gun was because Kaido took advantage of luffy’s awakening, the road to laugh tale databook tells us that in zoan awakenings the only disadvantage of it is when the nature of the Zoan takes over your body. In this case nika took advantage of Luffy’s body when he starts laughing and being goofy and nerfed Luffy. Which Kaido took advantage of, but when Luffy became serious, and controlled his zoan nature he literally overpowered kaido with bajrang gun despite being in a weaker condition. There’s no doubt gear 5th is stronger than kaido. Even kaido himself said to king in the flashback, the one who will defeat and surpass him is gonna be joyboy. Even the narrative says this and narratives > feats
False. His STRONGEST hybrid move was the death destroyer bagua and ALL he got out of it was cartoon ahh looking bump with some stars circling his head. Luffy ATE that shit like nobody's business. And overpowered him in his clash. Luffy definitely wins the rematch
@@ibrahimsurti4922 Kandali Dragon Swarm. Luffy is bleeding from the mouth from all those attacks. That could also be taken to when Kaido started adjusting to Gear 5’s unique abilities.
Kaido’s attacks clearly still hurt. Oda wouldn’t insert a whole monologue from Kaido about how Haki can still overpower awakenings while bashing on Luffy (who’s very visibly in pain) just for the takeaway to be “Gear 5 takes no or very little damage from Kaido.”
Gear 5th barely lasts a decent battle. Actual strong One piece characters can battle throughout days and days.
I’m honestly curious about whether or not Oda will ever actually write a fight that’ll last days. As we get closer to the end that seems more like a feat he likes throwing around for hype rather than something we can actually see Luffy do in story. Closest we got to seeing a fight approaching that length was Luffy vs Katakuri right?
But then again there is like the whole stamina being a separate stat so maybe Luffy won’t actually fight anyone who could last that long? Lol.
@@jonathandelgado3755oda will never 😂 cause it doesn’t even make sense for them to fight for days but real battles only lasts a few hours 😅 like what, unless kuzan and Akainu fought similarly to those two giants in pre time skip where they fight for few hours cause this shit ain’t adding up 🤷🏿♂️
@@Isis-wisdom Yeah honestly. A fight that long sounds like a headache to write, and maybe even to read. I don’t think we’re ever gonna see Luffy fight more than like, a day at most. Lol
Not luffy he needs too eat every 30 min, or he has no strength lol
Luffy doesn’t have the STAMINA to beat kaido
that makes no sense he had enough to beat him already. Did he just lose his stamina?
He matched Kaido in base. What are you talking about
The top tier fighters can fight for days luffy longest fight was with katakuri and luffy was really running the whole time mayweather style.
@@faceless2930are you guys dumb. Kaido was getting Jump by the Super Novas, Minks, Yamato and Luffy got defeated multiple times so Luffy stands 0% chance 1 v 1 Kaido.
@@mista2738didnt the cracker fight last longer?
7:55 True, but again you have to consider the fight in it's entirety. We are talking a full on 1v1 zero breaks, there is no falling off of Oniganshima and getting some meat and rest before riding back up in a dragon when Kaido had almost no breaks during the whole raid. We are talking about who can outlast the other without any outside forces whatsoever and I don't think Luffy is quite there. I think it would be extreme diff for sure though.
Also you have to consider the fact that when Luffy awakened he was rejuvenated by his awakening. He was already defeated, but that gave him a push. In a current fight that is not the case anymore, since Gear fifth is already within his arsenal there will be no big awakening after defeat.
@@pokekiller787xbut a fresh gear 5 pop at, say the start of the battle with Luffy at full health will be stronger than his first awakening at 1HP.
@@MrElliot1210 Would it really be THAT much stronger though? We haven't really seen evidence of that in Egghead. I'm doubtful the power and damage Luffy can deal would be significantly altered by being at full HP, same with Kaido. They would be fresher, but that's true of both opponents.
"you have to consider the fight in it's entirety".
No you don't, and you really, really shouldn't. That's the one thing I had issue with people claiming Luffy isn't as strong as Kaido because he needed help. He only had help BEFORE the power ups. That doesn't count, why people think it should count is beyond me.
The only parts we can really use to see who's stronger are the parts after gear 5th. Everything before that wasn't current Luffy, it may as well have been a different character fighting Kaido at this point.
@@aaaaaa-gq3dv gear 5 doesnt have the stamina to hang with kaido. Luffy was exhausted after fighting lucci and running around egghead
The argument that Luffy was objectlively weaker and more damaged than Kaido is made unclear by the fact that G5 absolutely resuscitated Luffy in some form or fashion. You don't go from literally dying to tap dancing on Kaido's head without the active form giving him some level of physical recovery. G5 likely works like a booster, leaving base luffy in whatever state he was in originally, but giving him the capacity to fight like he's much more stable than he was prior, not just slightly alive especially given how much he could tank with the mode. Luffy is not weak and dying while fighting in G5, he is strong in exchange for exhausting his baseline self's energy while in the mode. You portray him as almost being dead once revived but you can easily argue that functionally he was in a fully capable state. We also have to consider that G5 in it's two portrayals gives off the idea that in an extreme diff fight he has to use it as a last resort given that both time's he's used it, it has left him extremely weakened the moment the form wears off, showing that it likely has a bigger drawback than G4 currently. Luffy needs to show that he can outlast Kaido's stamina in one go without being pressured to use G5 too early otherwise Kaido can auto win if he outlasts it.
Kaido also still could have dodged bajrang as you implied in the video yourself. Whether or not he needed to use flaming drum dragon to get luffy to let go doesn't change the fact that he let go, giving Kaido the opportunity to avoid the attack and hit Luffy directly. We also know that Kaido has Future sight and is capable of speed matching Snakeman 1 for 1 in dragon form meaning that we know he holds back from being an efficient fighter as we saw over the course of the raid. While narratively that can imply that Kaido will screw himself over in a 1v1 for kicks and thus lose in the end (just like with the Bajrang clash and tanking many free hits), it also shows that physically he has the capacity to make his fights much more difficult for his opponents but he just doesn't rely on those gimmicks. Imagine the raid but Kaido fought more like Katakuri or Shanks in 1079, it would be one-sided and that has to be taken into account in terms of his true power, it can't be ignored just to focus on a hypothetical rematch. Does Luffy have the capacity to beat Kaido in a 1v1? Yes. Has Kaido shown that though his arsenal he has the capacity to win the majority of bouts? Imo, he has.
Edit: I also think it has to be considered that as a pure physical specimen Kaido is unrivaled by all but Big mom. While Kaido is beatable, he is nearly irreplaceable in the world of physical feats, you cannot exchange him for any known character in the verse but BM and have them replicate what he did in Wano. Anyone with less physical endurance than Luffy is automatically getting overwhelmed just by the rooftop 5's attacks that Kaido pushed through. No one is getting their organs sliced, heart gamme knifed, insides crushed, body slashed, and Red roc'd and getting back up through pure tanking like Kaido did.
good take.
He can fight like he in good condition but the damage it still not ignored .from tanking thunder banguas ,using gear 4 (stamina) and even Yamato commented on luffy being barely able to stand up , and getting his head crushed by kaido.The damage he took effected the usage of gear 5 hence forcing himself to continue bit in the Lucci fight he didn't seem to be having his voice disappearing like kaido against so stamina shouldn't be a problem to him.
luffy surpassed kaido. simple as that. if they were to fight again, luffy would win much more easily.
But mythical zoan awakening has a healing factor, it's part of his powers. So he could just be at low hp vs kaido at low mid hp and pop gear 5 after fighting in gears 1-4.
@@whatts5507false you agenda pushing
1- Having to fight for extended period of time with Yamato and then Zoro (Both fighting with ACoC) while spamming boro breaths and twister and a bunch of techniques is a big consideration.
2- Once Luffy came back to life his health got magically filled up with the reincarnation, otherwise he'd still be dead on the ground. If they fought again he wouldnt have access to the magic healing potion.
3- Your assumption that it isnt using stamina isnt solid enough. Plenty of DF users have complained about stamina usage related to overusing their fruit. Doffy and Kaido dont even have the same type of fruit. Yamato said that the flames are getting weaker as he got weaker, how would that make sense if hes not using any energy to maintain them. He already expended energy to summon and control the flames. You dont regain energy after a boro breath or w/e attack you do just because it missed and dissipated.
Zoro and yamato did a minimum amount of damage compared to the struggle luffy was giving him, zoro himself comments on how his attack was not enough.
When gear 5 came back, he was still at low health, to the point that it temporarily deactivated, gears and haki drawin luffy. He didn't magically heal himself. He just had enough stamina in him to last the fight. Right after the fight, he went into a coma for about 2 weeks
Also, if Kaido dodged Bajrang Gun (which he couldn’t), he would have allowed Luffy to completely destroy Onigashima and his ENTIRE crew in the process
I agree but he could have dodged, he himself told luffy to let go because he is not planning to dodge him, plus this a flying dragon bro, he could dodge easily
@@mahjoubadam1742 did you not watch the video? Morj clearly showed where Kaido tried to escape and couldn’t. He COULD NOT dodge that attack. He could have if Luffy didn’t have him grabbed, but he would have let his entire crew die in the process of being a coward from an attack. That goes entirely against Kaido’s character
Couldn't he have gone flame mode, burn luffy's hand off, go back to hybrid and dodge? Surely he's fast enough
@@john-olivierlukama1548 you think a half drunk mf who just saw someone the size of his toe grab lightning and swing him like a jump rope is rationally thinking he could get away with something like that? Y’all kill me😂
@@LuciidDreamzboth Luffy and Kaido thought Kaido could dodge it. If he wanted to dodge it, he’d dodge it. But it’s not in his character, so he never would.
The island was breaking apart because kaido's flame clouds were getting weaker. Yamato said so while talking to momonosuke when he was in dragon form trying to pull back onigashima and preventing it from reaching wano capital.
Just imagine fresh and serious Kaido that IS NOT pulling an entire island through the air. Kaido doesnt lose 1v1s
Fax it’s going extreme diff but kaido edging it out. Luffy healed mid fight as well. Also yamato states that kaido wasn’t 100 when Luffy got back up on the roof at that point.
8:50
@@travisealy3512no cap I don't even think it's gonna be that hard for Kaido if he is legit serious and knows Luffy has G5 and learns so much in battle. Kaido is gonna blitz Luffy
Someone didn't watch the video before opening their mouth
that shit is passive.
Regarding the flame clouds, I'm pretty sure Kaido getting injured by Luffy was actually causing them to weaken, which was pointed out by Momonosuke. That was the whole point of him trying to create his own flame clouds to hold the island up
one major issue here:
1. Morj makes the headcanon statement that Kaido was never at the ceiling of power in One Piece and then uses that as a fact to support his arguments. Literally everything in the story up until then said Kaido was either the strongest or among the strongest characters. I could win any argument if I made up some statement and used it as proof.
It is sorta unconfirmed but you also have to take it account with Kaido’s title.
1. It’s a title. Kaido could no more be “the strongest creature” than Usopp be a “god” or Robin a “Devil child” or Bellamy a “hyena.” Yeah they refer to traits but they aren’t meant to be taken COMPLETELY literally.
2. OP does make a point that characters tend to pin reputation on others and go with it. Like how Luffy was the “Fifth Emperor” but the opening of Wano showed he couldn’t actually hang with that crowd. Kaido being the strongest creature is most definitely an example of that since of all the top tiers he seemed the most active.
3. It IS a Shonen. Luffy was never gonna beat the strongest character in this series by the end of this arc. The power scale always escalates. He’s gonna come across someone who can throw him for a loop in a way Kaido couldn’t.
Morj already presented the evidence that kaido is clearly not at the top and luffy is still have long way to go
Proceed to call it headcanon
@@jonathandelgado3755 Morj has a point in that titles aren't everything, just because he's the world's strongest creature doesn't make him top 1. But he takes it way too far the other way and says Kaido isn't even in the top tier at all when there's no evidence for that at all.
@@fruitrings2238 Yeah I guess Morj got a little carried away. Or maybe he means Kaido is top tier but wanted us to “read in between the lines” and interpret his statements as him meaning to say that Kaido isn’t the absolute top 1 percent of the verse. But yeah idk it just comes off as him downplaying what Kaido is capable of.
@@bmuhammadthariqhumaid4670he kinda didnt
If they straight up just went for a rematch I don't think Kaido would "mess around" as much. He literally didn't finish Luffy off several times :|
Thats a really good point! He probably wouldn't be drunk and take it way more serious
And luffy would have had gear 5, also Kaido was taking the fight seriously against luffy at the end even though luffy was in a worse condition than kaido.. also i don't get this idea of kaido dodging luffy's bajarang gun... if kaido is "the strongest creature" then his flame bagua should've overpowered luffy's bajarang gun... In a true test of strenght between both characters towards the end of the fight, Kaido lost.
"didnt finish luffy off"
He threw him out the island which he would have drowned if if he wasnt saved
If luffy were to die again there's no revival
@@stilljakernoob he literally tells himself that he didn't finish him off, how that was a mistake and he should've taken his head. That's definitely "didn't finish luffy off" :)
But those times when he didn't finish off luffy was mid fight luffy, not end fight luffy. So if a rematch happened there would be no chance for kaido to "mess around" and not finish luffy off. Because Luffy wouldn't get knocked down like he did because he's strong enough to match kaido
I never thought about it, but it would make sense if the flame clouds and bird cage are one time energy burst, and once it’s set they just stay up passively. Unlike Law’s Room which does drain him.
like Sugars ability to change people into toys. It stays up, but once sugar goes down the effect stops.
We know it’s not cause when he gets tired, the flame clouds got weaker
@@Synnamon27yeah but morg hates being wrong lmfao
@@Synnamon27 delusional fans can’t stop meat munching
@@Synnamon27exactly like yamato said so
@@Synnamon27exactly lol
Morj I love your videos man but I gotta disagree on this one lol
1. Luffy after awakening ACOC still got K.O.’d by Kaido, before coming back with Momonosuke. Plus Yamato stalled in the mean time while Luffy healed up. If we’re talking purely from the moments Luffy awakened ACOC & not just solely the Gear 5th section
2. Kaido faught like 20 people, deliberately not dodging attacks (Unless it was Zoro) majority of the time
3. Chapter 1027 Yamato mentions Kaido is getting weaker due to Onigashima beginning to fall apart. So NO, he would not have gotten a power boost for the flames getting lifted if it already drained a portion of his stamina 😂 what’s lost is lost. That’s a disingenuous argument
4. Points are made here, however Kaido’s dialogue suggests he could have dodged once he got Luffy to let go but he simply chose not to. At the end of the day Kaido’s Flaming Drum Dragon was an avatar manifestation similar to King’s attacks (or even the Susano’o in Naruto). That still very much presents a very solid “what-if” scenario since he decided to take it head on
A fresh Gear 5th Luffy vs a fresh Kaido would be HIGH DIFF for Luffy, AT BEST. And we’re not even factoring in Luffy’s current stamina for G5, he’s winded after fighting Lucci who he probably didn’t need G5 for
Luffy after mastering ACOC was matching Kaido blow for blow in base. The luffy that just awakened ACOC and the one who mastered (who was riding on Momo) are completely different. Morj is also talking about luffy from egghead fighting Kaido who has a better grasp on gear 5. It’s not like luffy was getting slapped until he used it either.
Kaido fighting and taking attacks from 20 ppl doesn’t mean much when by kaido’s own words they were all weak. Even ashura couldn’t even bring Kaido to his knees and just left a scar. Zoro himself was surprised by how little damage it actually did. Luffy is truly the only one who was dealt significant damage
Kaido’s dialogue suggesting he could still dodge doesn’t really change anything cuz luffy could still just grab him over and over again. Even if Kaido tries flying away luffy could just stretch his arm and grab him. Morj even shows Kaido doing his best to get rid of the arm before finally trying to match luffy’s attack since dodging would be pretty damn hard
We literally saw Momonosuke pass out after carrying Onigashima for like a minute lol, wym there’s no evidence Kaido was exerting himself by holding it up?
Morji tried to argue an island lv feat took no energy.
Then tried to argue, lifting an actual island took no real effort.
Then argue that the island lifting, which was made to directly show us kiafo incomparable might(took no effort)
It was literally a shock value feat.
Then tried to argue that moving the island ALL NIGHT WHILE FIGHTING SOME HOW TOOK NO EFFORT.
Then argued that it got weaker because of kiado but somehow kisdo had no connection to its operation.
Even if possible, it's unlikely and most abilities aren't the way he described the clouds.
His evidence was luffy....who had weaker haki, won a haki clash after the clouds went out.
No morj that's called plot, and bad writing.
Oda isn't exactly known fir quality, "realistic" fights.
I don't believe one piece fights if there's no health bars on the page.
The same Momo who was trying to drag the entire island using his physical strength the whole night? The same Momo who has 0 experience using flame clouds ? That Momo would be tired from making his own clouds to catch a falling island ? Really ?
Momonosuke had been in a state of high stress and panic for the last hour, and collapsed after having all that relieved. I don't know what there is to debate, we literally saw Kaido's flames removed and it had zero effect on Kaido's strength.
@@bobbob-zc1nx It's on you to prove that it was taking energy, not me. I provided a clear example at the climax of the fight that there was no difference in Kaido's strength between when he was lifting the island vs when he was no longer having to lift the island. It's not a hypothetical, it's already demonstrated in the manga that it had no effect. Please show me a panel that indicates that it was draining his strength.
@@MrMorjI love you, but one can sagely assume if the flames are getting weaker as kaido gets weaker the flames are attached to kaido's strength. Otherwise why would they get weaker as kaido gets weaker.
EXACTLY. People always bring up the breaks and the assists but fail to take in consideration that luffy did not have his current powerups before these breaks and was therefore losing. Gear 5 was also used on his last legs and fell unconscious after the fight as while on egghead 9 secs after defeating lucci luffy was all around and talking fine. Luffy is taking Kaido to Extreme diff post wano
I still have Kaido winning but at EXTREME High Diff because of the stamina part. Luffy with Conquerors would have to survive long enough and get enough damage in (he can't use Gear4 cause he'd run out of Haki) before using Gear 5. Otherwise we'd have a Doffy situation where Luffy runs out before he can finish him off
@@kidkouga92 I think Luffy still takes it. One thing that Morj didn't talk about in the video is that Luffy was able to use Gear 5 twice while literally being nearly dead. In perfect condition Luffy would perform much better, and if he gets so low to a point where the transformation wears off he can just use it again because we literally have seen him nearly dead transforming back to G5. The aging drawback seems to only happen after G5 is used, it doesn't seem to affect him while he's using it.
Might even be a high-diff Luffy win instead of extreme, because we need to factor in his absolutely insane growth rate, and he would 100% be growing further in a rematch.
Luffy and Co were chipping away at kaidos healthbar throughout the entire battle.
Every break equals a luffy stronger then the luffy kaido had already beaten.
The fact of the matter is luffy and CO WERE hurting kaido.
Gear 5th luffy was just a last minute buff/80% heal for 1 last push.
Without help and breaks. Luffy can't beat kaido.
The fact that he can't maintain gear 5th for more then a few minutes already shows he isn't at that level yet
@Loki4real14in a fair fight with no plot armor. Luffy loses 90% of the fights he's jad in this series. Kaido would destroy him, the moment gear 5th runs out.
Morj I love ya butttt in my opinion using the luffy is dead argument = more damage is not accurate. Luffy sustained enough damage to kill him RELATIVE to his damage level. For example, a punch from Mike Tyson could kill a baby, but not me (hopefully 😅, well maybe). So the amount of damage to kill luffy might be lower then the amount of damage to kill Kiado. Does that make him stronger, who know?
Morj is forgetting that luffy gets to get back up multiple times and be fine after KO's. So ofc be beats kaido, bro gets unlimited chances cause plot
Using plot as a defence is lazy as fuck because you can attribute everything kaido does to the plot
@Loki4real14youre only strengthening my argument...
@ainaemmanuel6211 yes everything that happens is plot.. obviously. your point? you cant call my defense "lazy" when you didnt make any counter point😂
I think this match up is more about stamina. Kaido Didnt get any breaks between the fights while luffy gets healed and has at least 2 breaks. I even argue that gear 5 consumes more stamina because after 10 minutes of using gear 4 he had to take a break and zoro took over and with kaido full power i dont think he will beat him in less than 10 minutes and gets a break to recover from that, even the short fight with luci (he doesn"t use gear 5 after that fight against the seraphim, which implies that he cant use it at the moment)he was tired and catching his breath while kaido has a lot more stamina to tank attacks than when he fought luffy. And I am not convinced of the damage argument because yeah if they had the same health that would be the case but they don't and i dont think luffy's strongest attack one shots kaido with full health.
Addition:
Luffy fought against kaido with gear 4 while kaido didnt even enter his hybrid and lost his stamina and got his ass saved by zoro. Yeah he has a higher power output in gear 5 but he has at this moment in the manga not the stamina to take a full power kaido down before he changes back.
Okay my conclusion:
Luffy's stats and power get a buff but his stamina not. And kaido with full power has more than enough defense and stamina to out last luffy in a fight in this moment of the manga.
G5 stamina is confusing to me. Luffy was shown basically emoting with G5 on Egghead island but after the Lucci fight we also saw him exhausted for a panel or two.
I think its simple , when Luffy goes out of Gear 5 he becomes that old man looking Luffy. It takes 30 seconds for him to get back to normal but if he wanted to go back in to gear 5th he could , as we saw in the Kaido fight.
Its simply the Base Drawbacks a Pre Timeskip Luffy that uses Gear 3 for only a few seconds still shrinks, but he could last way Longer
@@latima123ify the thing is that luffy didn't become old looking man after he defeated kaido so either oda forgot about it or it only happens when he uses the giant mode
I'm sure with time and experience it'll eventually stop, kind of like how he overcame the chibi luffy form
I think luffy can push his gear 5 staminia if he is a life or death situation but if hes not than he just stops using it
So you think current luffy is capable of fighting all the scabards, the supernova (including a version of luffy) , yamato, luffy again and win ? Damn
Kaido didnt win against luffy the second time
Kaido had Big Mom to fight the 5 supernovas on the roof, and everyone else you mentioned wasn't even there, he fought them at separate times. Considering the supernovas put up a fight I think Kaido would lose to them too if he fought alone against them at the same time.
That being said, if Kaido does win against them, I would say Luffy does too then. Even if you think Kaido is still stronger, Luffy's at the very least comparable to Kaido in gear 5th.
@@chrislin6570 indeed ... But it's not like when Luffy came back in G5 he one shooted kaido ... Kaidou put up a great fight... The Current Luffy should have to match what kaidou did against G5
I'm pretty sure the current Luffy (G5) would run through scabbards and yamato like how aramaki run through them
@@mehaplebypotatocalledtaqwa4773Do you think that if momo didn't tell yamato to stop fighting...And yamato went all out, Aramaki will low diff yamato essentially...
Yeah, I just don't see how saying "Kaido was never at the top level" and then using that as proof is an acceptable argument. Imagine trying to do that in a university paper or something, you'd get rejected so hard.
I think that's because a lot of people feel that Luffy can't have surpassed Kaido yet because he was called the strongest creature, and since the story isn't over, Luffy still has enemies he needs to overcome. By clarifying that Kaido wasn't necessarily the ceiling, it answers that point.
11:50 If you continuously pour water into a giant container and then the container gets destroyed so you stop pouring, do you immediately regain all the water? Nope, instead you just wasted a shit ton of water.
Additionally, it was actually a pretty important plot point for both Momo and Yamato that the flame clouds get weaker as Kaido himself gets weaker. To the point of Momo suggesting that Luffy should stop fighting Kaido.
Yes, how did Morj understood the exact opposite of what was clearly stated multiple times during the fight is baffling.
I agree overall with your consensus but to say that Doflamingos bird cage is the closest analogue is so disingenuous. Momo had the same fruit as Kaido and was trying to move the island and clearly, it required exertion.
If it's 1 on 1 bet on Kaido. Luffy has a timelimit on his powers and as we saw it takes hours and hours to beat Kaido down
if it’s 1 on 1 bet on the protagonist idiot. that’s the whole point of the series. eventually luffy will surpass and defeat everyone. by the end of wano he proved he became stronger than kaido
Luffy went into wano saying he will surpass big mom and kaido and in gear 5 he did just that
@@whatts5507protagonist power didn't save luffy from alot of opponents
@@Tapedat_stk did u not read what i said? eventually.
My main issue with that debate is that the durability of fresh Luffy and fresh Kaido is entirely up to Oda. They are both monsters in that aspect and Oda isnt that consistent when it comes to durability , however considering how many times Luffy was knocked down it should go to Kaido in theory. In terms of offensive power Luffy edges out Kaido but the gap isnt that huge.
So it kinda becomes a game of do you think Luffy can hit Kaido more than the opposite in a fair 1v1 ? And it's hard to answer that when one of Kaido's trait is that he takes pride in tanking attacks.
Luffy was only knocked out that many times bc he was catching up to Kaido's strength the whole fight and cuz he got interrupted by CP0.
Its like if Kaido with only Ryou had to fight G5 with advanced conquerors💀
I don't think he Will beat Kaido in a fair match, maybe in a couple of arcs.
Lol in a couple arcs ? So EoS Luffy is what it takes to beat Kaido? People overrate tf out of Kaido if he rematched Luffy right now Kaido is getting folded extreme diff. That’s the natural progression of Shonen MC. Luffy wouldn’t lose a single time either because he already knows Kaidos weakness and Kaido absolutely has no response to Bajrang Gun. This isn’t the same as Law, Kidd vs Big Mom. Luffy actually has what it takes to beat those monsters fairly 1v1
@@remiz4366 I disagree, but ok.
@@shirinauno he is right
You don't seem to get gear 5......Luffy is damn near unstoppable in that form and if he went in that form from the start......kaido is gonna get humiliated
@@shirinauThat’s fine it’s your opinion. But what’s Kaido’s answer for Bajrang gun? Kaido takes stamina, durability and other stuff but what’s his answer for the final attack? Can a healthy Kaido and somewhat healthy Luffy finish Kaido with that? Can Kaido just casually tank that? Story doesn’t say so. Plus if Luffy does the same attack and connects on Kaido wouldn’t he be at the core of the earth again? Equals massive explosion?
@@remiz4366 it's seems someone is triggered
i think morj makes a poor argument concerning the flame clouds not draining kaido. Maybe he forgot, but we have seen momonosuke struggle to even ASSIST kaido in lifting onigashima with the flame clouds, and vegapunk confirmed that momo's fruit is the same as kaido's, aside from its color. Even if you argue that kaido has more mastery(which is true) its undeniable that this drains stamina to some extent.
wtf does momonosuke have to do with anything ? we all know momonosuke is SIGNIFICANTLY WEAKER than kaido. just because they have the same df doesn’t mean they are equal in strength. the fact is that kaido could lift the island with no effort at all. it was never stated that keeping it up weakens him
@@whatts5507 " the fact that they have the same df doesnt mean theyre equal in strength" is something i already mentioned. I addressed the mastery argument before it was made and yet somehow you managed to completely ignore it while typing this.
@@Champ_7298 brother then what’s ur point ? ur contradicting urself. you are saying that we know it takes stamina to lift the island because momonosuke was struggling… why would u use momonosukes and his devil fruit as a comparison if u know that having the same df doesn’t mean equal strength ? ur not making any sense.
@@whatts5507he’s saying the strength is different but fundamentally its the same
@@whatts5507 summoning flame clouds isnt really a matter of physical strength. Momo had to learn to do it, and it drained him. He needed proper devil fruit mastery. Kaidos physical strength is irrelevant, the point is that summoning and upholding flame clouds was shown to drain momonosuke, and would logically do the same to kaido, albeit to a lesser extent. Its not that momo wasnt "strong enough" he just has no control over his fruit.
13:20 I disagree, we see once Kaido activates his flame dragon attack Luffys hand is burned and he has to let go to blow it. There is no evidence at that point that Kaido can't just deactivate his move and dodge. Although still considering Kaidos character he wouldn't dodge this attack in the first place even in a rematch considering his pride. We see him tank many attacks in battle he didn't need to just because he wants to showcase his durability.
Kaido started to dodge luffy continuously after luffy grew in ryou.
Kaido isnt trying to tank coc luffy to showoff. He gets hit because he is slower and he tanks because his defence is insane
@@ay3070 Continuously is just not true, he did dodge sometimes, but only when he was rattled by something new, or after already being hit by a ton of the same attacks, like when he dodged those Snakeman blows. Also the speed argument seems off considering that too, he turned into this massive dragon and with future sight was able to weave through and bite Luffy. So I wouldn't say Kaido is significantly slow or anything. Still though this isn't even a point that applies to Bajrang gun since it's such an easy attack to see coming and dodge especially when you can just fly away.
@@pokekiller787xflying away wouldn’t help when luffy could just grab him
@@flamingfrenchfry2877 He could dodge Snakeman in a giant dragon form, you think he can't dodge a grab when Luffy is stationary getting ready to punch? My point is he could dodge the attack if he wanted too. But he wouldn't dodge a challenge of that sort anyway so this argument that Morj is responding is moot anyway.
@@pokekiller787x My guy kaido stopped tanking luffy intentionally since the fight with the supernova and you can say when his conquerors weakened kaido took hits when he was no longer effective.
Kaido isnt slow but he isnt faster than luffy. A charged dash is faster than regular speed in one piece.
Its why zoro s basic speed is slow but when he does a charged attack he reaches speeds comparable to very fast characters. Luffy is stromger than almost everyone and has a God fruit that is feared, while being a haki master.
Akainu is not beating luffy, neither is old WB nor is kaido beating luffy
because fighters bring out their true power despite their conditions surpassing their limits and his strongest attack was OVERPOWERED.
Kaido has absolutely nothing to win against luffy besides hoping to outlast him.
You hate Kaido I already know the conclusion of this video.
You say it like he is making the video out of hate for Kaido when he is just spitting absolute non-biased facts the entire time...
@@adoniscreed4031 The fact that you think it's non-biased fact, is inherently biased fool.
@@adoniscreed4031 non-biased… come on bro lol
I love all the people commenting about Kaido carrying the island like they clicked on the video just to say that and didn't watch anything.
So why the hell the flame clouds are indicator of his strength? Does doffy getting pumpled with gear 4 makes the Bird Cage weak?
No, I agree with Morj. I believe the flames like the birdcage are tied to your stamina and how much is left rather than it using it as in draining your energy. It's more like a marker or an indicator.
Thats honestly how it felt to me the whole fight. Like Oda wanted a visual indicator of Kaido's health. Im surprised so many people think otherwise
So why does the flame clouds is indicator of his strength? Does doffy getting pumpled with gear 4 makes the Bird Cage weak?
@@dionisionatbruh why do you spam that in every comment thread ? Your point doesn't really stand considering how Oda written and presented the scene regarding the clouds its like an apples and oranges discussion.
@@sirlagsalot8474 Why don't you answer it then rather segwaying it with orange and apple?
@dionisionat I'll answer it for you then. Think of the ability as one outside of the user so it no longer drains what was already initially used to create that ability. Now, If over time the person with said abilities stamia or life force starts to weaken then the ability will also fail.
I agree with most of what's said here. The only issue I have is with point 3. Yamato references Kaido's powers weakening in chapter 1027, with the flame clouds being unstable.
Of course, it's still possible that his cloud related power are separate from his general combat abilities. For example, Luffy not being able to use haki after gear 4th doesn't affect his ability to stretch. So Kaido's use of his fruit abilities could follow a similar logic.
Maybe it doesn't influence the argument that much, but it should have been brought up in my view.
The coulds aren’t passive. When Kaido got weaker he began losing grip on the island
Exactly it's clearly stated that
To me it sounded like the cloud strength was dependent on Kaido's endurance and they were just used as a gauge to show Kaidos hp.
Well. they don't take much agency. It is more like, looking at momonosuke, the user eventually starts to make them instictually.
Still supports Morj’s argument no?
@@koolkid533 no he's supporting the idea that just as Doflamingo's Kaido's ability is a passive one, which is clearly not the case
The only characters that have a high chance of beating Luffy are Imu and Blackbeard, but a lot of people won't accept this and love to pretend that Luffy is still the underdog. We are in the final saga, wake up.
Don't forget shanks but I don't think that fight will be 100% serious
Luffy hasn't mastered G5 yet. He can't even keep it up for long yet. Please use some common sense.
Is that why rob lucci didn’t even go down after gear 5 attacks? Lmaooo
Luffy litteraly 2 tapped rob lucci, an awakened zoan without using any advanced type of haki lol. Mind u Lucci is now at least yonko commander lvl as people call it.
exactly!
Chapter 1027 clearly shows holding onigashima uses some of kaidos strength and stamina as he is slipping on how much he can produce as the fight prolongs
When your conciousness is fading the passive effects of df starts to fade away we seen this with pudding and dolfamingo
@Loki4real14 I didn’t say it was draining him I’m just saying he’s losing consciousness
Keep in mind that Luffy doesn't need to go to Gear 5 right from the start. I believe that just with Gear 4 and Advanced Conqueror's Haki, he could hold his own against Kaido and wear him down low enough to them kick to Fifth and finish him off.
How? Bro died a couple times no way he is lasting that long
@@gazaalley3862a fresh post wano luffy can….. and no he didn’t “die multiple times”
@@zoovaado7759 zoro saved him the first time the second time he would have drowned and the last time was when he awakened Nika if not for plot luffy is getting folded sane thing happened against croc and Kat and Doffy his last clean win no help was against hody
@@zoovaado7759 the guy who was running out of Breath after clashing with Lucci? Granted he did beat lucci but he wasnt in the form long and needed time to recover
This is absolutely true lmao, we literally saw Luffy holding his own against Hybrid Kaido in base form lol.
Kaido is interesting to power scale. Even though he’s extremely strong, he constantly sabotages his own strength. He drinks in the middle of battle. He avoided using future sight for the first half of the fight. He yearns for death. If Kaido had a better mindset and took the fight seriously, he could maybe win. But I don’t think it would be in character for Kaido to take this fight (or any fight) seriously.
Drinking saké doesn't sabotage his strength, it does the exact opposite by *strengthening* his haki, how do people forget this? Also Kaido *did* take his fight with Luffy seriously otherwise he wouldn't have acknowledged his strength and used his full power against the young pirate
Kaido still didn’t need to take that final hit. He ultimately *chose* to try and tank it rather than dodge and regroup.
Luffy passed out after using it too, so if that attack had failed he’d have been toast.
I really think that this points to the issue of Gear 5ths longevity being a pretty big handicap, at this point it seems like even moderate uses of it drain Luffy pretty badly afterward.
Tbh this has been a staple of how Oda writes Luffy for a long time, there’s always a stamina issue associated with his strongest form at any given time to keep him from spamming it nonstop.
Luffy passed out bc they clashed, simply activating the move didn't make him pass out... Again, you aren't comprehending that if kaido activated fire dragon to make luffy let go and then fucking transformed into hybrid to escape the punch, luffy would have just grabbed kaido's ass again for the cycle to repeat itself.. Also, what makes you think kaido using his ultimate move wouldn't follow the same logic as luffy's... Let us say perhaps luffy was using bajrang gun and after missing he passed out - why would kaido be able to just fuck around and find out if he just wasted the remainder of his energy on that final transformation
The bottom line is that kaido could not have simply escaped that attack and he would need to have defeated luffy in the clash, which he did not. Let us also consider how impossible it would be for kaido to just "dodge" an ISLAND sized attack from luffy.. We aren't talking aboit Gear 3rd levels of size, or some weak ass soft ass punch. Luffy pulled up with a fist greater in size than onigashima and even kaido couldn't blitz through that entire island in mere milliseconds.
Luffy needs to eat more meat
When the island was crumbling and partially falling Yamato said the flame clouds are getting weaker meaning Kaido is reaching his limit
During Luffy’s final round against Kaido he had the Awakened Zoan stamina boost. Awaking his Devil Fruit seemed like it replenished a lot of his “health bar”
So, is Kaido not an Awakened Zoan? Did he not have 40+ years of battle experience? Was Big Mom not on the rooftop for a good chunk of the fight? I think 'Bajrang Gun' overpowering 'Flame Bagua' is enough to prove Luffy is stronger than Kaido. Because both of them were at their limit. It wasn't like Luffy got a lucky hit, he caught Kaido and left him no way of dodging it. Just a bit before this, Luffy was hit by a comparable attack but it was because of an intervention. Kaido got a lucky hit but fate had other plans.
@@himanshugirigoswami4573Uo Uo no mi is different from a literal Deity fruit of Luffy.
@@dionisionat It's name is Uo Uo no Mi Model: Seiryu (Azure Dragon)
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azure_Dragon
Azure Dragon is a Chinese Dragon God. So no, your point doesn't stand.
@@himanshugirigoswami4573I was about to say kaido is a Legit Dragon God that got beat by a new God.
It's literally stated by both fighters multiple times that Luffy is closer to death than Kaido is, even after Luffy gets Gear 5. Luffy had his health bar replenished, but not to Kaido's level.
The whole segment with Kaido dodging if he wanted to, i believe the only reason why he chose not to was because he WANTED to see if Luffy could overpower him in a clash instead.
It would prove that Luffy is joyboy to him which seems to be what Kaido DESIRES. That doesn't make him stupid not wanting to dodge it. Kaido's philosophy is based off the fact that someone's worth equates to their strength on the battlefield, hence determining their place in the heircarchy.
Kind of like Ryomen Sukuna from jujutsu kaisen. He believes in the same philosophy. That's why both of them felt lonely at the SUMMIT of peak strength
Where were the 'doflamingo was crushing the whole island w the bird cage while fighting' arguments during doffy vs luffy lol
They'll come when doflamingo getting smacked made the birdcage weaker
Love ya Morj but this aint it Chief
1) The element of surprise of G5 played a big factor. Kaido couldnt understand what was going on ( hell...even we couldnt)..Luffy got alot of licks in just by surprising Kaido with his wacky but powerful attacks.
2) Gear 5 awakeining def gave Luffy some hp back while Kaido kept all the licks he got from the beggining of the raid
3) Keeping the clouds up was def draining him ( even for 1%)...his main goal was still to crash land that thing so he had to keep it up..
4) "Peak for Peak" G5 over Kaido but G5 shows major stamina consumption...and Kaido is a durability beast...for the duration of G5...Luffy would beat the shit out of Kaido but he would survive and stall it out...and he now knows about the whacky G5.
What you forget is that while Luffy had a "lower health bar", Kaido was basically using haki the entire time while Luffy had breaks to regenerate his haki. Yamato for example was not dealing heavy damage to Kaido, but Kaido had to use haki while Luffy was regenerating his own. That's a factor that clearly matters in this debate and is easily forgotten.
There is evidence to support that Kaidos flames use up his stamina/strength. Onigashima crumbling was attributed to Kaido getting weaker by Yamato. While not a direct confimration there is a link between Kaidos strength and his flame clouds. We never see Doflamingos strings getting "less dense" or "weaker" because he himself was getting weaker.
Also, Momo was out on the ground after lifting Onigashima for a short period of time, proving that it does drain your strength or at least your stamina. It's just that Momo's drained much quicker because obviously, he isn't Kaido.
It’s fairly clear also that g5 somewhat heals luffy otherwise he would still be on the floor unconscious just in g5. But Kaido has no recovery. You say luffy being unconscious before g5 shows he must be lower health I say it shows he must have healed to an extent for g5
I'm surprised people are missing this point, as even once Luffy has Gear 5th up I post several panels in the video of both characters acknowledging that even now Luffy's health is lower than Kaido's, and even now Luffy is about to die.
It was literally mentioned that the clouds were getting weaker as the fight progressed.
Clouds being reflective of Kaido's strength is not the same as Kaido's strength being used by the clouds. We already know Devil Fruit abilities disappear when the user is defeated (ex: Moria, Sugar), but that's not the same as those passive abilities actively draining their strength. We literally saw the flames being removed and it did nothing for Kaido's strength, meaning the idea that they were draining his strength is head canon.
@MrMorj You could be right, but I would note that Momo used the same ability for a short time and was exhausted afterward. He was perfectly fine just moments before. That suggests that it consumes stamina.
Morj what are you saying the flames were clearly used to indicate kaidos stamina was fading and he couldn't hold the island anymore....even momonosuke was totally exhausted after he moved the island out of Luffys way
I feel like you and morj are right. Honestly it doesnt seem like it affected him just like birdcage , it felt more like Oda showing us a visual indicator of Kaido throughout the fight.
Momonosuke that had just turned into a full fledged dragon and could barely control his flames? Yeah of course HE would struggle 🤣
The flames, like other devil fruit effects, fade away as the user loses consciousness.
@@adoniscreed4031 yeah momonosuke is clearly a novice with the power unlike kaido...but it shows kaidos mastery of his power that he can hold an island that long while still in a deadly battle
@Loki4real14 yeah exactly.. if your stamina drops and your performance in an activity reduces ..it means that activity itself needs some energy to be maintained
Before even watching the video yes he would. Luffy was near death when he overpowered Kaido’s strongest attack. It’s true that Kaido used his powers to lift the island but we have no idea how much it was effecting him. We only know that the Island was weakening shows that Kaido was getting weaker due to what luffy did. Either way Luffy beating Kaido near death is a way better feat. Another thing is that Luffy for a lot of the fight was playing around with Kaido and turning him into a jump ropes. Kaido himself said “ you can play all the games you want” when stating that Haki transcends all! He also noted that Luffy was weak to slicing attacks implying that the other attack were not doing much to Luffy at all. This would make sense considering that many of Kaido’s attack that were done to Luffy weren’t taken seriously at all. It was like a looney toons character getting beat up but not really taking any damage at all. If Luffy and Kaido where at full hp Luffy would high diff him at best. Stop underestimating Joy boy!
People vastly underestimate the shock absorption that Luffy’s DF give him.
While Kaido’s defense makes him take less damage, Luffy is mitigating massive portions of the damage he takes. It’s a toss up because Kaido did say that Luffy was integrating all forms of Haki seemlessly with his DF.
Kaido still doesn’t really get his awakening.
Haki doesn't exist anymore?
So it's plot devil fruit? Or plot awakening?
None of that matters against Haki
Haki?
That doesn't matter because haki negates devil fruits
My main argument for a rematch is that Kaido would take him a lot more seriously since he knows he can lose and won’t be so haughty. He will dodge instea of tanking and actively use his future sight more
It's not a matter of if Luffy would win or lose. Its a matter of WHY would Luffy win, and the reason why he would is as ridiculous as the fact that he did
What...
@@TheWildCard2k yeah that comment made no sense at all
@@Leo.23232 basically, luffy wins no matter what.
@@lucasferrary3941 ok i reread it and i understand, you know going into a fight he will win but you dont know how he will do it
although i disagree he does lose fights sometimes
Me: can we have wano analysis
Morj: we have wano analysis at home
Wano analysis at home:
Those saying Luffy would win really doesn’t understand shit in the one piece. You say Luffy was more tired after the awakening than Kaido, on what basis you came up with that conclusion? Because he became old and fall?
The same literally happened against Lucci and the main reason he fell because it his first time awakening and it does consume a big energy on him, that why it happened against Lucci as well. Finally before Luffy awakened Yamato literally said that Kaido is heavily wounded. Use your brain and not just be biased because you like Luffy!!
Terrible points on his part
Facts
These thumbnails keep getting more and more out there by the day 💀
One point to add about the last clash was that Kaido's dragon form is his most defensive form. Him going down while in this form further tells us how OP bajrang gun is.
Ita giant physical weight + adv armament and conquerors of course its OP
Very well presented and argued video, thanks.
I think the argument about the flames is that they have been draining his stamina over time, not that they are at the moment a huge offset in his strength. Releasing them at the end does not undo the loss from earlier. The counter to this is that Kaidou's regen might be counteracting the cost, but then it is also possible that he might have never taken net damage at all if he were not also maintaining the island. It takes a lot of energy to carry an island, a lot more than the attack potency of most attacks used on Kaidou.
Definitely would like to see more videos similar to this one.
Honestly I believe current Luffy could do it high/extreme diff.
W
W
L
delusional
But I doubt he can hold gear fifth long enough to truly beat a full health Kaido. The moment he loses gear 5, it's over. But I guess current Luffy's overall stronger than Kaido, especially if Kaido underestimates him.
While it is incredibly debatable, there is one factor I feel also needs to be accounted for, it’s that closer to death doesn’t exactly mean same damage taken, for example Kaido would’ve been left able to keep fighting after tanking much stronger hits and much more damage than a regular person, like for example Kuma nearly killed Zoro but the same amount of damage wouldn’t have killed Luffy or Kaido even assuming their body was in the same state. Key example, while some characters can be knocked out and stop fighting, other characters still keep fighting even with a massive sword wound across the body. So while Kaido was still more capable of fighting and was at a higher level of health, he also has higher endurance and higher health than Luffy did in the 1st place. If the 2 had the same amount of max health in their “full health-bar” and endurance, and Luffy beat him while at a lower level it would be direct, however Kaido undeniably tanked much more damage which would’ve killed Luffy. Basically what I’m saying is, the main reason for why it’s so debatable is that Luffy had a lower health percentage, while Kaido’s max health was so high that the damage he took in total was greater than what Luffy tanked.
So, the most important factors we take into account here is that
1. Now that his awakening has already occurred, we aren’t sure if he could take lethal damage and revive in a rematch the way he did.
2. Kaido’s physical strength still surpassed Luffy’s by the end, as you said now that he has it awakened, even if he was fresh with access to gear 5, now that Luffy doesn’t have the leisure of having time to come back as he doesn’t have any ally to keep the fight going until he comes back into it, Kaido at full health going against Luffy is a tough challenge. Even though Luffy has access to gear 5 now without needing to take lethal damage 1st, this also means he doesn’t necessarily have the backup of awakening his fruit again to revive him in the event of a rematch. Meaning if he’s knocked out in a 1v1 with no revival and no team to stall, he effectively loses even if he eventually wakes up.
3. Kaido took SO MUCH to take down, the amount of stamina he had to use, the amount of damage he had to take to eventually fall was absolutely absurd, and with the limitations to Luffy’s gear 5, his major differences is that in exchange for losing his extra life and backup, he has access to higher power earlier on, and can use gear 5 earlier on though he might not want to do so too early in the first place.
It’s extremely debatable, but I think Luffy with advanced Haki wouldn’t be able to take Kaido down to a low enough level, until Luffy has already been taken too low, only for Luffy to use gear 5 too early and be outlasted or too late and still be outlasted due to either him taking too much damage or Kaido not taking enough before gear 5 comes into play. Basically, the only way I could see Luffy winning is with perfect timing where Kaido was damaged just enough, and Luffy still has enough health and stamina in the tank, that his gear 5 works just like it did during their 1st fight. Still though, despite it being extreme diff, I still think Luffy needs a little more time to improve with gear 5 before I see him truly at least 60-70% chance of winning against Kaido, because currently I’d say 30-40% chance.
Kaido not carrying an island means he could out endure gear 5.
EDIT: let’s be very clear here, gear 5 outclasses kaido which is why I said “out endure.” This battle is one of attrition and luffy will probably end up killing himself in this fight. Morj literally agrees with this sentiment if you watch till the end. Be better guys
Did you watch the video before commenting?
@@thechodeofhammurabi That is headcanon coming from Morj. Also, Oda doesn't care about consistency in his powerscaling.
did you even watch the video? just coping at this point
@@thechodeofhammurabiSo why the hell the flame clouds are indicator of his strength? Does doffy getting pumpled with gear 4 makes the Bird Cage weak?
@@dionisionat I didn't understand a word of that. Help me understand so we can talk.
Yoo the way this guy said ‘big companies’ has me rolling 😂😂
We can go to in-story route (a.k.a oda's intention)
Kaido's feat that 1v1 always win is meant to be broken by luffy anyway.
Idk why so many people always undermine luffy's achievement, this also happen when luffy got 1.5 bil bounty and mfs salty about it
Because it wasn’t a real 1v1 you can’t expect people to fully count the win after all that help and getting knocked out and basically dying the last time on the island
@@HoFMiddylet’s not act like kaido didn’t have the stronger teammate. people act like big mom wasn’t there teaming up with kaido
@@whatts5507 it doesn’t matter it’s still 5v2 from the beginning and then BM and Kaido got separated my point still stands there was always someone or multiple people fighting Kaido he never had a break all while holding up an island be real
@@HoFMiddy brother the “holding up an island” has nothing to do with the fight. otherwise oda would have mentioned it. the fact is that once luffy unlocked gear 5 he surpassed kaido. it’s not my fault ur grasping at straws trying to discredit luffys growth and achievements.
You can break it down with details and people still don’t wanna believe it
@MrMorj correction on the topic of lifting the Onigashima, Yamato mentioned that Kaido's stamina is depleting because of him lifting the Onigashima.
No. She didnt say that, go read it again. She says kaido is getting weaker so the flames are too, not the other way around
@@kollen5952 exactly, she said that the flames were getting weaker because Kaido is, she never said that the flames were making him weaker
@kollen5952 you're literally proving the point that the ability isn't passive. Same with doflamingo why wouldn't the bird cage continue if he was knocked unconscious if it was truly passive.
@@lopes531I don't really remember using DF powers weakening someone (Correct me if I'm wrong). It's usually the awakening that's taxing to the body. Even Luffy only suffered consequences when he was using Gears which are probably linked to his Awakening as just as Chopper's monster points are. And if that's true then that would mean the flame clouds (were used by Momonosuke) should not tax Kaido unless Momonosuke has awakened hia fruit as only the color is different.
@@lopes531 yeah you gotta point there
That thumbnail is wild😭😭
People forget Luffy also didn't defeat doflamingo alone. Law also fought him beforehand. And also that Kaido wasn't the only one injured, Luffy was too, he fought Kaido 3 times and got defeated before eventually winning, and he also fought Ulti, Apoo and a few fodder before getting to the roof.
Come on now. I see your point but Ulti & Apoo😂😂 Childs play. Luffy ain't even use Ryou.
@@dajmendz205 It's not about he tired he got from fighting them, it's about how they damaged him. Apoo landed an explosion on Luffy and Ulti headbutted him into a wall. It wasn't much to defeat him, but it's something. Also don't forget he was working really hard in prison and was infected by queen's plague, and literally just recovered from it.
@@Benji30 fair enough
Luffy didn't need Law to win against Doflamingo. The minute Luffy revealed Gear 4th Doflamingo became fodder. Maybe the anime made it look more even, but in the manga Luffy's power was devastating Doflamingo. Oda even mentioned a while back that if the citizens weren't there to help Luffy that he would've run around and hide until he could recover after Gear 4th ran out the first time, just like it happened in Whole Cake. Luffy just let them help him since it was convenient.
@@redragon88 okay but that's exactly my point, it was the same with Kaido. The minute Luffy gained gear 5th he could handle him, maybe not completely overwhelm, but it could be enough to win the fight without anybody's help from the get go.
Excellent excellent points. I keep bringing up all these points this discussion.
One counter point I admit though. We do know the flame clouds affect Kaido to some extent as Momo was completely exhausted in his efforts to create the flames and push against Kaidos.
We also know Kaido’s flames got weaker as the fight progressed.
Still I doubt any of that makes up for the exhaustion Luffy was dealing with.
That counter point doesn't matter because momo struggled to put up the flames but after he set them up it didn't effect him at all or weaken
@@maxmoon4138 Actually once the island lands Momo appears to be completely exhausted. Granted could just be stress or creating the cloud, but he was one exhausted dragon afterwards.
Momo isn’t the best indicator as he was new to the fruit though, but he does prove there’s some energy lost in at least creating the flame’s & potentially upkeep as well.
However it’s impossible to tell how much or how little that was affecting Kaido.
I think fresh Kaido versus fresh Luffy would be a spectacular 1v1 and that it could go either way. Luffy *could* win that fight, but he could also lose it. I think how it actually goes down would be dependent entirely on what was necessary for the plot at the time of such a fight.
Pretty good, although the holding up the island argument you chose cherry picks the parts based on a guess on what nay sayers might think to better support your argument. The most prevalent point on holding up the island is Momo's inability and exhaustive effort to try to hold up the island himself. While for Kaido it's seemingly passive and negligible. I personally don't think it affected Kaido's strength at all in the fight, but to ignore that is ignoring the information given that supports the opposing perspective.
THE WANO ANALYSIS DOESNT EXIST
Gr8 point that w Gear 5 Luffy w less hp beat Kaido. I hadn't thought of it like that. Ifl gear 5 almost makes Luffy near-invincible except for cutting atk's
I'm gonna say he's not there yet, biggest issue Luffy has right now is stamina management in g5 and kaido is an established tank
luffy tanked kaidos strongest attack... the opposite is not true
Though I agree with your major point.. Wasn’t there a major implication that the flames were weakening as he was getting weaker? Yamato said it several times and suggested if he gets knocked out the island will fall
Can your next power saving video be: Could Morj beat a car thief with a crowbar?
Luffy >. The evidence is there but just even if you ignore evidence the author's intent is for Luffy to surpass his enemies by the end of the fight. When Oda has Luffy say "I'm gonna surpass you" that's exactly what he intends to happen.
the biggest question to consider is weather or not we think luffy can make up the damage done to kaido by other forces while surviving all the damage kaido did to him. and then there’s the matter of all the other damage kaido dished out (vs the sn, the scabbards, etc) luffy would now have to face.
U do know he died 3 times. So clearly he cannot survive
Forreal , this is the exact question we should ask to ourself if we want to question about Luffy's and Kaido's strength at the end of Wano.
Morj says that Luffy clearly had a lower health because he died, while Kaido was just heavily injured, but why doesnt he talk about Luffy full recovery and still die after facing Kaido ?
Also Luffy had to end it with a giant punch, because he knew Kaido won't go down despite all the efforts and the awakening.
When Luffy fought Lucci, he was extremely exhausted after he turned off the G5. Frankly, I cannot see Kaido going down that quick in a second round against Luffy.
Also Morj says Kaido was not the ceiling of this World, while I hardly can't see someone taking that much of dmg Kaido took and still be able to decimate everyone. Not to mention, nobody would survive if they fall from sky island, or even take the Bajrang Gun
Not only is it explicitly stated that kaido was losing grip on the island as the fight went on, we also saw momonoske struggle to use the clouds. Like chapter after chapter of him clearly physically struggling while trying to move the island with the clouds. Oda couldnt have made it clearer if he beat you over the head with an idiot stick, which apparently be should have done. But i imagine even that wouldnt be enough.
Momonosuke literally JUST turned into a goddamn full fledged Dragon and didnt know what he was doing... you clearly came out of the womb knowing how to walk, read and write by the looks of it 😑
I think another thing that might make fans resistant to the idea of Luffy being stronger than Kaido is just the question of-who can challenge him then?
Between Aokiji and Akainu, Roger, Whitebeard, and Garp, the implication is that after a certain point the top tiers sorta level out. And that makes sense since the Elder Stars are always hung up on the balance of powers. If Luffy could beat someone on that level and there’s STILL more story to go, can we expect any future fights to be as good or have as much back and forth? Yeah Luffy activating cheat codes and being unstoppable is cool for a while but after a bit there’s an expectation that he’ll struggle again to keep things exciting.
Even your futher argument isn't making sense...if you drop a barbell weight will you immediately gain back your strength prior to lifting it?
👆👆👆
Momonosuke had a moment catching Onigashima? Must have missed it🤔😂
If Oda wrote it, yes. Luffy probably isn't ever going ever going to lose again. The only times that happened was Sabaody, and technically he didn't lose, because he was actually being saved. And also his first clash with Kaido. Beyond that, even if Luffy goes down, he's back a couple hours later to win (Crocodile/Katakuri/rooftop Kaido). So yea, my money is on the strawhats steamrolling the final arc with no casualties (because if Nami can survive a direct haki headbutt from an enraged ancient zoan user in hybrid form, she can survive anything.)
I wanna see half of the strawhats dead
@@udayjoshi223Wrong series go to Akame ga Kill
@@royalfun1031 Bro I was about to reply the exact same thing verbatim
@@remus4283 Same brain cell
Idk about the last point the anime and manga show Kaido switching between forms especially into hybrid form almost instantly. So to say he couldn’t switch back in time doesn’t seem right, I think if your going to go that route then it’s more likely to be an honor thing. I also think Kaido is simply rusty in the way that he doesn’t realize how much or little strength to use when attacking bc he hasn’t had to go all out in so long. He also probably doesn’t think anything can kill him, in his mind he was going to tank that Bajrang gun like so many other strong attacks
The thing I’m confused about is how did lucci awaken his df but kaido didn’t? Yeah he’s got the hybrid form but that’s not awakened. Lucci and kaido have the same devil fruit but different animals obviously. Do you think lucci would give kaido a run for his money or it’ll be a low diff W for kaido?!
The best explanation I could think of for Kaido possibly not being awakened is that maybe his personality was incompatible with the fruit. Kaido said that Awakenings occur when the users mind and body catch up to the fruit, not the other way around. From my understanding, the Azure dragon is depicted as benevolent. Pretty much the exact opposite of Kaido. And the Elder Stars stated that Zoan fruits have a will of their own. So maybe Kaido didn’t awaken his fruit because it actively rejected Kaido?
We also have Luffy, who is fun, carefree, and a freedom fighter. Just like Nika. And Lucci, who is a predatory killing machine, like a leopard. So maybe Kaido really couldn’t awaken while someone like Lucci could because his personality just wasn’t the right match?
@@jonathandelgado3755 thanks bro, your insight helped me understand that fully now.
This is basically head canon at the this point so bear with me. Based on what I’ve seen in the manga and the anime, I’m lead to believe that awakening a mythic zoan grants access to the man-beast form. As far as we know Orochi did not have man-beast form, Momonosuke also doesn’t have man-beast form and I’m fairly certain neither of them have awakened their devil fruits.
@@davidgray3983 well wait, momo’s devil was scientifically made wasn’t it? So his df wouldn’t have a soul. So would he not be able to awaken it?
@@MichaelDease822 Np but it’s still just a theory, gotta wait for Oda to confirm. But that’s what I’m going with lol.
I have problems with all the arguments in this video.
You yourself said Luffy was at zero after Kaido killed him, so we have no idea how large the recovery boost he got from Awakening was. He was definitely tired during the Gear 5th fight, but we already know from Egghead that that's just a natural side effect of using the ability.
Kaido's flame clouds also definitely take up stamina. We saw it when Onigashima started crumbling dozens of chapters before Kaido's defeat, with Yamato saying it was because Kaido was weakening. We also saw Momo being clearly tired after using the flame clouds on Onigashima just for a bit.
Kaido also clearly could get out of the Bajrang Gun's way if he wanted to. When he turned into his Flame Drum Dragon form, it was so hot that Luffy lost his grip on Kaido.
And really, you yourself said it at the end. Luffy is only beating Kaido in Gear 5th. But how is he going to do that without outside assistance if Gear 5th takes so much stamina? The Bajrang Gun alone knocked Luffy out cold for weeks, even before he knew it had finished Kaido off.
Great video Morj, however you're wrong about Luffy being dead meaning he took more damage than Kaido.
As that can just mean Kaido can take damage that would kill Luffy and not be as affected.
Which is backed up as Kaido later fights a Conquers infused Gear 5 which has way stronger attacks than either Luffy attacks pre "death" or Kaido attacks at that killed him, Kaido used several stronger attacks afterwards that wouldn't kill himself if he tried
Oh and your wrong about the Flame clouds not taking Stamina from Kaido as once he starts to get tired fighting he could no longer sustain the Flame clouds
If it didn't take Stamina then him being tired wouldn't matter or affect the flames
And Yamato clearly stated she could tell he was tired as the flames got weaker
And yes Kaido flames being out out not giving him strength is also not valid as they dont return to him they are just diminished and he would need more to Stamina to replace them
@Loki4real14 Yamato literally notes her seeing the Flame clouds diminished was a sign Kaido was weakening
@Loki4real14 duh he was tired fighting Luffy , but Yamato wasn't watching them fighting when she noticed that the Flame clouds were weakening and made her assessment that Kaido was weakening too
I'm not saying the flames are the only or main thing that made him tired but diu to him being tired he couldn't keep them up
@Loki4real14 But I would say yeah it takes Stamina to maintain so gradually over time the flames was weakening once he ran out of the Stamina to sustain it due to fighting Luffy the flames went out (and the at first small task of using the flames to lift the island for so long)
It's like
Using very little strength to hold a bottle of water while doing an extreme work out.
over time you will run out of energy to hold even just the bottle
But the bottle isn't the reason your tired but your too tired to hold it
I think a potential way to think of the flame cloud is this: it took some of Kaido's power to summon the flame clouds initially, but after that it takes negligible effort to control them. Kaido is probably limited by how much flame cloud he can summon at once, but not much besides that
This is how I've seen it as well. It never came across as a constant "channeled" ability, but rather a single activation the takes an initial amount of effort to use.
I'm gonna say... Absolutely no. However Luffy's growth is so fast who knows by the end of the next arc.
Its funny how you say no to these (weirdly picked) 4 points, just to destroy these statements with the last you bring up: stamina. Stamina is what gives all these points a yes. Long battles with lots of enemys, heavy injuries & the clouds (which we DO learn from Momo are hard to create and keep up); they all drained Kaidos immense stamina. Which the clouds out of all prove the most as their dissapearence shows how Kaido couldnt keep em up/recreate em anymore and how they got weaker over time as Momo got able to pull and take control over them.
So its fair to assume that Kaido, even less injured than Luffy, suffered a lot more loss; not in hp but in bringing his Stamina down "from a beast to a human". This brings us to the 4th point of Luffys big attack. And with the previous analysation and looking at Kaidos character, the question isnt if Kaido would ever dodge, but if he would be able to sustain it and stand up again in a "normal" fight. (i think yes)
And lastly the most important point of rematches, that you didnt even mention: experience. We saw Kaido adapting to gear5 before the knockout, hes a skilled fighter and learns fast. And his claims make clear he wouldnt forget Luffy.
So in the end we come to similar conclusions: Luffy could never win a fair 1v1 against Kaido. Stamina, time (gear5), experience; 3 major things all won by Kaido.
Kaido doesn't necessarily gets a power power up when his flame go out because it could be like someone having a heavy bag on thier shoulder for a while and when they put it down don't get a burst of power, they are still exhausted because they carried the bag. Personally if they fought now without Luffy getting more power ups, helps, plot armor and breaks to go eat and replenish like (always) i think kaido would win but it'll be high or extreme diff
The onigashima flames are definitely not a big deal but I think an argument for it being at least some little of concern is that when kido was pummeled the flames at the end started flickering, suggesting it took some concentration at least to keep them up but it is obvious that this was not a big deal
luffy beat kaido when he wasn’t lifting the island. he had no handicap. look for a better argument
Interesting arguments but kinda disagree on this one. Luffy's health is so all over the place during the fight it's hard to say for sure how low it was in the last stretch: he got knocked out after he took Kaido's first attack, then he was completely fine, he got knocked down a second time and almost drowned, he ate some meat and he was fine... Sure he was on the verge of death in 1043 but can we really know how much the awakening healed him? The flame clouds are probably passive, I agree, but than again a link between Kaido's strenght and the clouds was established so who knows. And lastly I personally took Kaido's decision to face Luffy's attack head on more as a character moment from him than that he had no other way to let Luffy let go. And finally, assuming that Luffy would go full strenght from the first moment of the fight is pretty out of character, if we do that we should also assume that Kaido would go full strenght and using all his abilities. In that case I think Luffy would put up a very good fight, but still lose
The panels I posted during the health section establish that Luffy's health is still lower than Kaido's at this point, and that Luffy is still on the verge of death. Both Luffy and Kaido verbally acknowledge this.
@@MrMorj thanks for the response man, been a big fan for quite some time. Even if I disagree with this take I still think these powerscaling videos are great, people can get toxic in the comments but the engagement is fun as hell. And good luck with your car!
I mean it's a good point, but even after that panel Luffy went back to the fight in an apparently pretty good shape: laughing and jumping around, tanking one attack after the other and landing big ones as well. So, even if temporary, the recovery he got by going gear 5 again is pretty influential and, as i was saying, we don't really have a good measure to determine how much that recovery was. In general I don't think healthbars are that relevant, especially considering how much characters can arbitrarily tank and how fast and out of the blue they can recover from fatal situations
Biggest argument people seem to be holding on to is that "the flames were going away as Kaido was getting weaker, therefore the flames must be using his strength". The "therefore" in that argument is head canon. It is very literally not based on anything, and it actually contradicts prior knowledge of devil fruits and what we are literally shown in the fight. It is already established that a Devil Fruit user's passive ability will go out if they are defeated (see Moria, Sugar, etc). It is never established, or even implied, that these passive abilities are actively draining the users' strength. Similarly, all we are ever told about Kaido is that his flames reflect his stamina, but nothing suggests that it is using his stamina.
However, there is *one* clear moment where we can literally see whether or not the flames were affecting his strength, which is during the final clash where Kaido's flames are conveniently removed. In a clash of their strongest attacks, Kaido is no longer having to hold the island. It is shown that it makes literally zero difference, removing the flames doesn't make Kaido suddenly get stronger, Oda doesn't even show it having *any* affect on him, and Luffy actually overpowers him shortly afterwards anyway. So where is this imaginary argument of the flames draining his strength coming from? Can you show me Kaido getting stronger after the flames were removed, as Kaido fans claim he would have been?
Lorj, I don't care about your click-baity power scaling point, however I care about your arguments.
If he uses energy to maintain the flames, not maintaining the flames anymore only allows him to not spend some of the energy he has left, it does not give him back all the energy he spent previously. How did you came with such nonsense Lorj ? When you carry a rock for an hour and then drop it, you don't get stronger, you are just able to use the energy you still have. What a dimwit reasoning, I am disappointed Lorj.