@@louekus4563what if nitrate is zero phos is .18. I'm switching to TM carbon dosing I have ordered balance and elimi. Currently using AF nitraphos minus and having to dose 80ml of neonitro to tank to get usually .5-2.2 nitrate after 24hrs from dosing
I m doing Carbon dosing since 5 years at my Tank. Whenever I tried to stop the Carbon dosing my SPS just started to fade. So I always sticked with the Carbon dosing method since 5 years. I just tried out different Kind of Carbons and now ended up with a mixture of ethanol, vinegar and honey which works pretty good for me. The PO4 is mantained below 0.1 and try to hoover at 0.05
It's not really only fish poop in natural reef of how corals aquire PO4, its small part of it. Quite alot of PO4 in natural reefs is aquired through plankton and bacteria.
@@louekus4563 Need some advice. Phosphate undetectable, Nitrates 30-40. Currently using nopox to manage nutrients but phosphate has bottomed out. I want to switch to TM carbon dosing but also want to get my nitrates under 20. I already cut back my dose of nopox and started over feeding a lot to help my phosphate I’m not seeing an increase. Should I dose phosphate? And continue to work on my nitrate and then make the switch to NP bacto balance? I don’t want to use plus NP because of the extra nitrates. Thanks in advance
@@justinsmallwood4374 Depending on the food you are using, your overfeeding will probably do more to elevate your nitrates than to increase your phosphates. I would cut back on your feeding, that is probably contributing to your high NO3 concentration, and use some Tropic Marin PLUS NP to help increase your PO4. You could also look for some fish foods with phosphate as a perservative. That will also help rasie your PO4. Then, once your PO4 is up to 0.10 or 0.15, you could then start some NP BACTO Balance. If you have more quesiotns about this, don't hesitate to give me a call in the Tropic Marin USA office and I will walk you through it.
Everyone always seems to latch onto this concept for nutrient reduction. But, I have a dozen other tools to reduce excess nutrients. I don't need to carbon dose to reduce anything. The most interesting claims rest with the production of bacteria as a coral food, produced with the excess nutrients already in the system. That idea, even if only run in small quantities, seems like an idea worth chasing. I know for me, their long-chain biopellets seem to be the most compelling product on this topic. Though my own use will only be supplemental. Anytime I can cycle nutrients into a secondary beneficial use is a win, rather than having to increase inputs
So for those of us that dont want to spend big$$$$ on tropic marin branded vinegar and ethanol mix what are the longer chain carbons we should be using?
To answer the question about low phosphates and nitrates in the ocean compared to our tanks is that in our tanks we ignore a lot of symbiotic processes Princetons the symbiotic process between Bluegreen Cromis and Accra Porra people that keep Accra Porra usually don’t have an overwhelming school of blue green cromis in other words they keep Accra Porra because they desirous it but not the Blue green chromous which can have tremendous benefits to Accra Porra
I used elimi np on my 150 gallon, worked up to max dosage after 4 weeks and continued to dose it for 6 months. I did not see any change in my nitrate or phosphate I am curious what I did wrong
I’ve noticed the intent of the science, and subsequently the equipment for reefing suddenly changed with increasingly popularized concern about conservation with the ocean die off. Like, in a five or eight year span, it went from Julian Sprung’s estuary filter, to George Jetson’s tank, but in this technological age, with the urgency, and financial scale of the real coral preservation effort/crisis. I hope this is a success dawning for all you guys working in the industry. Great content!
I was dosing AFR for over a year and had 3 icp tests come back with over 30 elements at a high level. Would this be due to using pro reef salt aswell?? Lost a lot of coral until I realised the problem was this. I love the simplicity of AFR but really disappointed with the amounts of curtain elements being over loaded .
In all the technical support I have done for AFR, this is not something I ever run up against. If you get a chance and some time to call me in the office, I would love to chat with you to help you figure out why you were seeing this. I'm not saying you didn't see this happen. I'm sure you did. But if it were as simple as just too much traces in the AFR, we would be hearing about this from everyone. So there must be other factors at play. I'd love to chat with you about it some time.
@@louekusmy magnesium got super high using just all for reef. Ive since switched to kalk as my primary and AFR as a backfill. I also mix it half all for reef half carbo calcium. I have not had the issue since.
Hi I've had a aquarium running for around 8 months, only fish atm and I'm going to be adding coral soon. Everything is going well lvls are stable. Phos and Nitrate are sitting 0.3 and 11ppm. Would moving from the pro salt to the actif version be dangerous for the fish due to the oxygen consumption of the bacterial reaction? Would it be better to use the actif separate to allow the aquarium to adapt then move to the salt version once lvls stabilise. Many Thanks by the way this channel is the reason there is a marine aquarium in my life ❤
I have switched from Red Sea salt to Tropic Marin salt.....and i would really like to switch from NoPox to TM carbon also, but none of these products seem to fit my situation so I'm not sure what to use. My phosphates right now stay consistent at 0.01-0.02ppm, but my nitrates are between 30-40ppm.
I would work on raising your PO4 concentration. At 0.01 or 0.02, you are below the very bottom of what we would recommend. If you can, try a little overfeeding with any kind of food that is high in PO$ as a preservative. A few healthy water changes might help bring the NO3 down a little. And then you can try to get that PO4 up with the overfeeding thing. Or trying our PLUS NP. The PLUS NP tends to raise the PO$ more noticeably then the NO3.
I found this format of asking questions & then talking about various different products & going off on tangents hard to follow, listening while fragging probably didn't help & maybe I'm just a bit thick but I find it much easier to take in a lot of info if it's laid out in a more continuous & straightforward manner & a picture is worth a thousand words.
I am above .1 in 2 tanks after changing po4 and i am fresh out of gfo so decide to go this route since nitrates are now 25! I underestimated thats how I got these numbers but one tank is 0.1. How do I do this with only buying one product and on gfo? You do explain much better then reef dudes video! so I get starting with elimi but dont know what to do about the gfo. I dont know if I just pull it out or remove little by little! Why would any one use the actif and pellets since they are so mild especially if bacto is to maintain.? Hopefully Mr Ekus can answer on if brs knows. Please I need to order something ASAP!
I’m interested in trying the bacto balance but currently have small visible amounts of Dinos in the tank. I’m worried the carbon dosing will make the Dinos take off out of control. Given the TP products use long chain polymers, will the bacto balance help or hurt when Dinos are present?
I would give it a try. Depending on other factors, you might fond it will be quite a help. If the opposite is true, just stop it and let the dinos run their course and then try it.
Like GFO, should we also stop running the black carbon as well? Doesn't it also take out amonia that the corals need? What about a refugium that takes phosphates to zero?
So I’ve been wanting to start carbon dosing Tropic Marin for a while now and I finally got the courage two days ago. I started out with a P04 of 0.03 and a N03 6.1. I’m only using half the recommended dose of bacto balance. What can be expected with my numbers as the days,weeks, months go by?
If your PO4 is really 0.03 ppm then I would not use the NP BACTO Balance, I would use the PLUS NP to help get that up a little first. Then, once your PO$ gets up around 0.1 ppm switch to the NP BACTO Balance.
NP Bacto Balance's carbon species is glycerol as far as I know from the patent paper. I wouldn't consider that a longer or bigger polymer like Lou was saying. It's actually smaller than sugar. However, they claim that glycerol, in contrast to other carbon species, is the specific molecule used in corals and their symbiotic bacteria, thus it would be the natural choice for carbon dosing. I got all of that from the patent paper and have no idea why none of that is explained the the usual customer on the actual consumer product packaging. The patent paper seemed much more convincing to me and was the reason I actually started using NP Bacto Balance. It's correct that ammonium and urea are easier accessible nitrogen species. It's not because there is more nitrogen atoms in it, as Lou interprets it while saying he is no chemist, but it's because in order to use that nitrogen, the organisms need to effectively reverse the nitrogen cycle, ripping off the oxygen from the nitrate. That takes effort (as a metabolic mechanism for that needs to be employed) and energy. [Side note edit: Ryan then made me cringe a little bit more when talking about charges, but it's OK, they are no chemists xD . So: nitrate and ammonia DO NOT have different charges. Both have a single positive charge on them: NO3+ and NH4+. But what Ryan is getting at is the oxidation state of the nitrogen atom within both respective nitrogen species. This depends on the atoms that are bonded to the nitrogen. In one case it's oxygen, in the other case it's hydrogen. I'm not going further into detail, but it boils down to what I wrote right above this edit: it takes more effort and energy to free the nitrogen from 3 oxygens vs. 4 hydrogens. Nitrifying bacteria do actually produce energy by turning NH4+ in to NO2+ and then NO3+. (So NO3+ has, like Ryan says it, "less energy left in it", but that doesn't have anything to do with charge whatsoever). If you want to make the nitrogen available as metabolic building block, you basically need to reverse that nitrification, thus it costs you energy. Side side note: the oxidation state an atom has within a molecule is determined by whether it's surrounding atoms either pull electron away from it, or push them towards it. This might be why Ryan is talking something about charges there xD. And Lou is completely right about charged molecules forming a hydrate layer around them, making the whole "package" a lot bigger, which is of concern when talking about cell membranes / RO membranes and transportation through those.] In a tank with measurable amounts of ammonium I saw various macro algae thriving that would die off in a cleaner tank. Now the reason why we don't use ammonia for reef nutrition probably is, that, although nitrate it more difficult to use for organisms over all, some organisms struggle more with it than others. Presumably the more evolved an organism is, the more mechanisms it has to deal with things like turning nitrate into usable nitrogen. And presumably corals are more evolved than algae. So using nitrate instead of ammonium or urea might harm corals less than it harms the uglies. This might even explain why an aquarium with fish in it is claimed to show healthier corals. Like Ryan I also have an aversion to "new hipp" things, but that nitrogen-free fish poop product and the whole idea of getting nutrients to the without dissolving them in the water column actually has me intrigued right away. Corals can literally eat those while uglies usually have no way of really eating a particle, so it makes total sense.
Carbon dosing via table sugar works every time. I've lowered high nitrates to 5 every time. The Red Sea NO3 PXO is garbage.....leaves your tank with red slime everywhere. Didn't just happen to me.
What great timing for this video! I've been racking my brain for the last 2 weeks on how to get my Nitrate and Phosphate up in my 217 gallon mixed reef! I've been carbon dosing the minimum recomended dose of Red Sea N03 P04 X for 3 months and my N03 and P04 are UNDETECTABLE. the last couple weeks i have been feeding heavy (5-6X per day), not changing filter socks and turned off the skimmer. Water got discolored and corals became unhappy, nitrate and phosphate are still undetectable! one positive was that Cyano growth slowed. Today i turned the skimmer back on, changed the filter socks and cut my carbon dose from Red Sea N03 P04 in half. I am planning on waiting 2 weeks to see what happens with this strategy. Water looks much better in just one day with clean filter socks and skimmer running again. Any thought's?? Also note i does recomended amount KZ Pohl's Xtra Special which has nutrients in it (unknown exactly what)
I would check your PO4 and NO3 test kits. It is not impossible, but it seems unlikely that you stopped skimming, feed 5 or 6 times a day, didn't change filter socks, and still have undetectable NO3 and PO4. After checking the kits, if it all checks out, I would try the PLUS NP. The carbon dosing will bring those values down not help you get them up.
@@louekus4563 Thank you for the feed back! Using Hannah testers for N03 and P04. i stopped carbon dosing and my Cyano issue has gotten substantially better and the corals look awesome. I think carbon dosing feeds Cyano. P04 is now 0.02 ppm and N03 still 0. Maybe when nutrients begin rising a bit I'll try the PLUS NP!
Been dosing All for Reef in my tank for 1 week to maintain Alkalinity and boom I have dinos... Nitrates bottomed out from 13.6ppm. Will be going back to ESV 2- Part unless i'm doing something wrong?
There may be something else going on. I wouldn't think this is from the AFR alone. Check your PO4 concentration. That may have something to do with this.
@@louekus4563 po4 remained unchanged, only thing that changed in the tank is the all for reef addition. i really want to like this product and use it but this is the second time i’ve tried it and has happened both times in 2 systems.
@@BensCanyonAT4 I’ve used AFR for 2 years. I’ve luckily never gotten Dino’s and my phosphates bounce from .1-.3 which is high. Not to be a fanboy over the stuff, but in my experience, never had any crazy outbreaks besides the first 6 month cycle.
I don't understand how the polyps consume the phosphate from the bacteria that live in the water, the bacteria live in colonies and don't swim in the water?
This was posted One year ago so I hope somebody reads this but I noticed that zero Vid smells like tangy barbecue sauce and red sees no po smells like acetone kind of strange
I didnt see that vibe at all. I use tropic marin np bacto balance as described and it works as described. So im not sure what you think is snake oil but
I also didn't get any sense of that vibe at all. The Tropic Marin products discussed are solid and have proven results. It has greatly simplified my nutrient management, and the corals have never looked better in my tank.
It sounds an awful lot like these compounds are organic sources of Nitrogen and Phosphorus. Is this not the same as feeding heavy? Seems like some calculations need to be done on how much actual organic N and P these add vs how much is in food.
Yeah instead of simply dosing less you must use the tm system and add nitrate and phosphate from a bottle so the bacteria can strip it straight out and keep you in a permanent cycle with their overpriced products
"Good guys and bad guys" is not a term that should be used when explaining carbon dosing. Be specific, I want to know genus and species of the organisms that can and can not metabolize the long chain polymers in Elimi NP or NP Bacto balance.
Is there any actual evidence that beneficial bacteria are more adept at breaking up complex carbon molecules better than undesirable bacteria? Carbon dosing as a source of phosphate delivery mechanism makes sense if the bacteria that are consuming the carbon and other nutrients are in the water column where the corals can get them. But I'm not convinced that the majority of that bacterial growth doesn't just end up as a bio-film that covers all sorts of surfaces where you are unlikely to get to it but where it could die for whatever reason and release all that nitrogen, phosphorus, etc. back into the water. Seems to me that you would almost need to incorporate some sort of surface that the carbon gets dosed into that occasionally does something to slough off the bio-film and release it into the tank for the coral to feed on.
In my experiences eeBoi reef salt drastically will drop nitrates and not help with phosphate, and u always have to dose nitrates. So if you are already carbon dosing its a no-go. Also, bio pellets are a joke and lack control. No matter what type of carbon dosing you are doing, you have to dose nitrates and potassium. For the carbon dosing to bring phosphate, once you hit the phosphate level, you want to maintain carbon dosing while adding nitrates and potassium.
I like the concept but It sounds a bit overwhelming! It’s like 17 different products I need to control phosphates lol! don’t get me wrong I love the “heavy in” “heavy out” concept but it’s a lot of products!
It's actually only 3 products, and at any given time you are using only one of them. Your PO4 concentration tells you which one to use. It is a very easy system to follow. Unfortunately, carbon dosing is not a one product fits all situation. But it's not that complex. Measure your PO4 level, then dose the recommended product.
@@louekus4563 thanks for the reply! I think I’m going to try it out, after watching the video again for the second time I think I got a better understanding of everything
Probalby very good anecdotal experience, but very technically flawed. Doesnt speak good about the company if the highest representative talks about monomers and polymers so losely and without knowing what ethanol and acetic acid really are. Also the statement that the good guys have the ability to use longer molecules and the bad guys can't is hugely wrong. There is no classification or distribution of biological mechanisms in nature based on an aquarist taste, such as good and bad guys. Now, i am not against carbon dosing. In fact, a 30%70% mix of vodka and white vinegar are doing wonders in my 400g tank. I just dont buy that the tropic marine producs are better that cheap carbon sources. It is just that cheap carbon sources are not good for tropic marine 😂
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
Should you wait until your tank is more mature or start using it as soon as your initial cycle is complete?
We would recommend waiting until your cycle is complete.
Really really enjoyed these videos with Lou. Super informative and seems like a great guy. His enthusiasm is contagious
Thanks so much for the kind words.
@@louekus4563what if nitrate is zero phos is .18. I'm switching to TM carbon dosing I have ordered balance and elimi. Currently using AF nitraphos minus and having to dose 80ml of neonitro to tank to get usually .5-2.2 nitrate after 24hrs from dosing
@@louekus4563do you have a insta or an email I can reach out to you on?
Great job. Thanks. Just needed an add on module for automated nitrate and phosphate testing for my Trident. Have a great day.
Mastertronic 🤪
I m doing Carbon dosing since 5 years at my Tank. Whenever I tried to stop the Carbon dosing my SPS just started to fade. So I always sticked with the Carbon dosing method since 5 years.
I just tried out different Kind of Carbons and now ended up with a mixture of ethanol, vinegar and honey which works pretty good for me.
The PO4 is mantained below 0.1 and try to hoover at 0.05
It's not really only fish poop in natural reef of how corals aquire PO4, its small part of it. Quite alot of PO4 in natural reefs is aquired through plankton and bacteria.
Thanks for this comment. Absolutely true. With the important point being that those would also be classed as PO4 in "particulate" form".
@@louekus4563 Need some advice. Phosphate undetectable, Nitrates 30-40. Currently using nopox to manage nutrients but phosphate has bottomed out. I want to switch to TM carbon dosing but also want to get my nitrates under 20. I already cut back my dose of nopox and started over feeding a lot to help my phosphate I’m not seeing an increase. Should I dose phosphate? And continue to work on my nitrate and then make the switch to NP bacto balance? I don’t want to use plus NP because of the extra nitrates. Thanks in advance
@@justinsmallwood4374 Depending on the food you are using, your overfeeding will probably do more to elevate your nitrates than to increase your phosphates. I would cut back on your feeding, that is probably contributing to your high NO3 concentration, and use some Tropic Marin PLUS NP to help increase your PO4. You could also look for some fish foods with phosphate as a perservative. That will also help rasie your PO4. Then, once your PO4 is up to 0.10 or 0.15, you could then start some NP BACTO Balance. If you have more quesiotns about this, don't hesitate to give me a call in the Tropic Marin USA office and I will walk you through it.
Everyone always seems to latch onto this concept for nutrient reduction. But, I have a dozen other tools to reduce excess nutrients. I don't need to carbon dose to reduce anything.
The most interesting claims rest with the production of bacteria as a coral food, produced with the excess nutrients already in the system. That idea, even if only run in small quantities, seems like an idea worth chasing. I know for me, their long-chain biopellets seem to be the most compelling product on this topic. Though my own use will only be supplemental.
Anytime I can cycle nutrients into a secondary beneficial use is a win, rather than having to increase inputs
I tho8ght the same thing. I don't even use carbon since switching to purigen
So for those of us that dont want to spend big$$$$ on tropic marin branded vinegar and ethanol mix what are the longer chain carbons we should be using?
Starch maybe
To answer the question about low phosphates and nitrates in the ocean compared to our tanks is that in our tanks we ignore a lot of symbiotic processes Princetons the symbiotic process between Bluegreen Cromis and Accra Porra people that keep Accra Porra usually don’t have an overwhelming school of blue green cromis in other words they keep Accra Porra because they desirous it but not the Blue green chromous which can have tremendous benefits to Accra Porra
Olá, tudo bem com você?
Não consegui vê o vídeo como combater ictio parasita dentro do aquário marinho?
Qual medicamento reef safe deve usar?
I used elimi np on my 150 gallon, worked up to max dosage after 4 weeks and continued to dose it for 6 months. I did not see any change in my nitrate or phosphate I am curious what I did wrong
I’ve noticed the intent of the science, and subsequently the equipment for reefing suddenly changed with increasingly popularized concern about conservation with the ocean die off.
Like, in a five or eight year span, it went from Julian Sprung’s estuary filter, to George Jetson’s tank, but in this technological age, with the urgency, and financial scale of the real coral preservation effort/crisis.
I hope this is a success dawning for all you guys working in the industry.
Great content!
I was dosing AFR for over a year and had 3 icp tests come back with over 30 elements at a high level. Would this be due to using pro reef salt aswell?? Lost a lot of coral until I realised the problem was this. I love the simplicity of AFR but really disappointed with the amounts of curtain elements being over loaded .
In all the technical support I have done for AFR, this is not something I ever run up against. If you get a chance and some time to call me in the office, I would love to chat with you to help you figure out why you were seeing this. I'm not saying you didn't see this happen. I'm sure you did. But if it were as simple as just too much traces in the AFR, we would be hearing about this from everyone. So there must be other factors at play. I'd love to chat with you about it some time.
@@louekusmy magnesium got super high using just all for reef. Ive since switched to kalk as my primary and AFR as a backfill. I also mix it half all for reef half carbo calcium. I have not had the issue since.
Hi I've had a aquarium running for around 8 months, only fish atm and I'm going to be adding coral soon. Everything is going well lvls are stable. Phos and Nitrate are sitting 0.3 and 11ppm. Would moving from the pro salt to the actif version be dangerous for the fish due to the oxygen consumption of the bacterial reaction? Would it be better to use the actif separate to allow the aquarium to adapt then move to the salt version once lvls stabilise. Many Thanks by the way this channel is the reason there is a marine aquarium in my life ❤
I have switched from Red Sea salt to Tropic Marin salt.....and i would really like to switch from NoPox to TM carbon also, but none of these products seem to fit my situation so I'm not sure what to use. My phosphates right now stay consistent at 0.01-0.02ppm, but my nitrates are between 30-40ppm.
I would work on raising your PO4 concentration. At 0.01 or 0.02, you are below the very bottom of what we would recommend. If you can, try a little overfeeding with any kind of food that is high in PO$ as a preservative. A few healthy water changes might help bring the NO3 down a little. And then you can try to get that PO4 up with the overfeeding thing. Or trying our PLUS NP. The PLUS NP tends to raise the PO$ more noticeably then the NO3.
You just need to dose bacto balance.
I found this format of asking questions & then talking about various different products & going off on tangents hard to follow, listening while fragging probably didn't help & maybe I'm just a bit thick but I find it much easier to take in a lot of info if it's laid out in a more continuous & straightforward manner & a picture is worth a thousand words.
I am above .1 in 2 tanks after changing po4 and i am fresh out of gfo so decide to go this route since nitrates are now 25! I underestimated thats how I got these numbers but one tank is 0.1. How do I do this with only buying one product and on gfo? You do explain much better then reef dudes video! so I get starting with elimi but dont know what to do about the gfo. I dont know if I just pull it out or remove little by little! Why would any one use the actif and pellets since they are so mild especially if bacto is to maintain.? Hopefully Mr Ekus can answer on if brs knows. Please I need to order something ASAP!
Is a skimmer required for carbon dosing?
I’m interested in trying the bacto balance but currently have small visible amounts of Dinos in the tank. I’m worried the carbon dosing will make the Dinos take off out of control. Given the TP products use long chain polymers, will the bacto balance help or hurt when Dinos are present?
I would give it a try. Depending on other factors, you might fond it will be quite a help. If the opposite is true, just stop it and let the dinos run their course and then try it.
Like GFO, should we also stop running the black carbon as well? Doesn't it also take out amonia that the corals need? What about a refugium that takes phosphates to zero?
I’m wondering if that new product the “particulate phosphate” is in a form detectable with the current phosphate test kits?
It certainly is. But most of it stays in particulate form and doesn't go into the water column for detection.
Very good info. I dose nopox myself works great
Can NP Bacto Balance be used in conjunction with a refugium?
Yes, absolutely. Many people do.
So I’ve been wanting to start carbon dosing Tropic Marin for a while now and I finally got the courage two days ago. I started out with a P04 of 0.03 and a N03 6.1. I’m only using half the recommended dose of bacto balance. What can be expected with my numbers as the days,weeks, months go by?
If your PO4 is really 0.03 ppm then I would not use the NP BACTO Balance, I would use the PLUS NP to help get that up a little first. Then, once your PO$ gets up around 0.1 ppm switch to the NP BACTO Balance.
Just dose bacto balance and your nitrate will decrease..it is very efficient.
I’ve been steadily dosing bacto balance for about 3/4 months and my nitrates have been rock solid at around 7 and phosphates between .15 - .19
@@eddiesaiz9672 are you dosing the maximum dose?
So I’m dosing .5 ml per day for a 60 gallon water volume.
Does elimi np also bring down nitrates?
Yes, you will see a reduction of both NO3 and PO4.
Finally organic chemistry in college is paying off.
NP Bacto Balance's carbon species is glycerol as far as I know from the patent paper. I wouldn't consider that a longer or bigger polymer like Lou was saying. It's actually smaller than sugar. However, they claim that glycerol, in contrast to other carbon species, is the specific molecule used in corals and their symbiotic bacteria, thus it would be the natural choice for carbon dosing.
I got all of that from the patent paper and have no idea why none of that is explained the the usual customer on the actual consumer product packaging. The patent paper seemed much more convincing to me and was the reason I actually started using NP Bacto Balance.
It's correct that ammonium and urea are easier accessible nitrogen species. It's not because there is more nitrogen atoms in it, as Lou interprets it while saying he is no chemist, but it's because in order to use that nitrogen, the organisms need to effectively reverse the nitrogen cycle, ripping off the oxygen from the nitrate. That takes effort (as a metabolic mechanism for that needs to be employed) and energy.
[Side note edit: Ryan then made me cringe a little bit more when talking about charges, but it's OK, they are no chemists xD . So: nitrate and ammonia DO NOT have different charges. Both have a single positive charge on them: NO3+ and NH4+. But what Ryan is getting at is the oxidation state of the nitrogen atom within both respective nitrogen species. This depends on the atoms that are bonded to the nitrogen. In one case it's oxygen, in the other case it's hydrogen. I'm not going further into detail, but it boils down to what I wrote right above this edit: it takes more effort and energy to free the nitrogen from 3 oxygens vs. 4 hydrogens. Nitrifying bacteria do actually produce energy by turning NH4+ in to NO2+ and then NO3+. (So NO3+ has, like Ryan says it, "less energy left in it", but that doesn't have anything to do with charge whatsoever). If you want to make the nitrogen available as metabolic building block, you basically need to reverse that nitrification, thus it costs you energy. Side side note: the oxidation state an atom has within a molecule is determined by whether it's surrounding atoms either pull electron away from it, or push them towards it. This might be why Ryan is talking something about charges there xD. And Lou is completely right about charged molecules forming a hydrate layer around them, making the whole "package" a lot bigger, which is of concern when talking about cell membranes / RO membranes and transportation through those.]
In a tank with measurable amounts of ammonium I saw various macro algae thriving that would die off in a cleaner tank. Now the reason why we don't use ammonia for reef nutrition probably is, that, although nitrate it more difficult to use for organisms over all, some organisms struggle more with it than others. Presumably the more evolved an organism is, the more mechanisms it has to deal with things like turning nitrate into usable nitrogen. And presumably corals are more evolved than algae. So using nitrate instead of ammonium or urea might harm corals less than it harms the uglies. This might even explain why an aquarium with fish in it is claimed to show healthier corals.
Like Ryan I also have an aversion to "new hipp" things, but that nitrogen-free fish poop product and the whole idea of getting nutrients to the without dissolving them in the water column actually has me intrigued right away. Corals can literally eat those while uglies usually have no way of really eating a particle, so it makes total sense.
Carbon dosing via table sugar works every time. I've lowered high nitrates to 5 every time. The Red Sea NO3 PXO is garbage.....leaves your tank with red slime everywhere. Didn't just happen to me.
What great timing for this video! I've been racking my brain for the last 2 weeks on how to get my Nitrate and Phosphate up in my 217 gallon mixed reef!
I've been carbon dosing the minimum recomended dose of Red Sea N03 P04 X for 3 months and my N03 and P04 are UNDETECTABLE. the last couple weeks i have been feeding heavy (5-6X per day), not changing filter socks and turned off the skimmer. Water got discolored and corals became unhappy, nitrate and phosphate are still undetectable! one positive was that Cyano growth slowed.
Today i turned the skimmer back on, changed the filter socks and cut my carbon dose from Red Sea N03 P04 in half. I am planning on waiting 2 weeks to see what happens with this strategy. Water looks much better in just one day with clean filter socks and skimmer running again.
Any thought's??
Also note i does recomended amount KZ Pohl's Xtra Special which has nutrients in it (unknown exactly what)
I would check your PO4 and NO3 test kits. It is not impossible, but it seems unlikely that you stopped skimming, feed 5 or 6 times a day, didn't change filter socks, and still have undetectable NO3 and PO4. After checking the kits, if it all checks out, I would try the PLUS NP. The carbon dosing will bring those values down not help you get them up.
@@louekus4563 Thank you for the feed back! Using Hannah testers for N03 and P04. i stopped carbon dosing and my Cyano issue has gotten substantially better and the corals look awesome. I think carbon dosing feeds Cyano. P04 is now 0.02 ppm and N03 still 0. Maybe when nutrients begin rising a bit I'll try the PLUS NP!
Been dosing All for Reef in my tank for 1 week to maintain Alkalinity and boom I have dinos... Nitrates bottomed out from 13.6ppm. Will be going back to ESV 2- Part unless i'm doing something wrong?
There may be something else going on. I wouldn't think this is from the AFR alone. Check your PO4 concentration. That may have something to do with this.
@@louekus4563 po4 remained unchanged, only thing that changed in the tank is the all for reef addition. i really want to like this product and use it but this is the second time i’ve tried it and has happened both times in 2 systems.
@@BensCanyonAT4 I’ve used AFR for 2 years. I’ve luckily never gotten Dino’s and my phosphates bounce from .1-.3 which is high. Not to be a fanboy over the stuff, but in my experience, never had any crazy outbreaks besides the first 6 month cycle.
after watching I went to BRS to find that Reef Actif seems to no longer be carried by BRS. 3 months after the video.
Why does BRS never talk about purigen? I don't even bother with carbon anymore. I run purigen
For anybody who doesn’t believe in the power of carbon dosing, research Sunny Harajly and his tank.
I believe Abe of Coral Euphoria is a proponent of carbon dosing as well.
I don't understand how the polyps consume the phosphate from the bacteria that live in the water, the bacteria live in colonies and don't swim in the water?
This was posted One year ago so I hope somebody reads this but I noticed that zero Vid smells like tangy barbecue sauce and red sees no po smells like acetone kind of strange
It’s hilarious seeing Ryan’s snake oil radar going off but him trying to hide it. I think Lou caught on.
I didnt see that vibe at all. I use tropic marin np bacto balance as described and it works as described. So im not sure what you think is snake oil but
any that regard carbon dosing as "snake oil" does not understand the science behind it.
I also didn't get any sense of that vibe at all. The Tropic Marin products discussed are solid and have proven results. It has greatly simplified my nutrient management, and the corals have never looked better in my tank.
It sounds an awful lot like these compounds are organic sources of Nitrogen and Phosphorus. Is this not the same as feeding heavy? Seems like some calculations need to be done on how much actual organic N and P these add vs how much is in food.
Yeah instead of simply dosing less you must use the tm system and add nitrate and phosphate from a bottle so the bacteria can strip it straight out and keep you in a permanent cycle with their overpriced products
"Good guys and bad guys" is not a term that should be used when explaining carbon dosing. Be specific, I want to know genus and species of the organisms that can and can not metabolize the long chain polymers in Elimi NP or NP Bacto balance.
As if it was not too complex already. :D
Let's complicate things even more
Is there any actual evidence that beneficial bacteria are more adept at breaking up complex carbon molecules better than undesirable bacteria?
Carbon dosing as a source of phosphate delivery mechanism makes sense if the bacteria that are consuming the carbon and other nutrients are in the water column where the corals can get them. But I'm not convinced that the majority of that bacterial growth doesn't just end up as a bio-film that covers all sorts of surfaces where you are unlikely to get to it but where it could die for whatever reason and release all that nitrogen, phosphorus, etc. back into the water. Seems to me that you would almost need to incorporate some sort of surface that the carbon gets dosed into that occasionally does something to slough off the bio-film and release it into the tank for the coral to feed on.
In my experiences eeBoi reef salt drastically will drop nitrates and not help with phosphate, and u always have to dose nitrates. So if you are already carbon dosing its a no-go. Also, bio pellets are a joke and lack control. No matter what type of carbon dosing you are doing, you have to dose nitrates and potassium. For the carbon dosing to bring phosphate, once you hit the phosphate level, you want to maintain carbon dosing while adding nitrates and potassium.
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I like the concept but It sounds a bit overwhelming! It’s like 17 different products I need to control phosphates lol! don’t get me wrong I love the “heavy in” “heavy out” concept but it’s a lot of products!
It's actually only 3 products, and at any given time you are using only one of them. Your PO4 concentration tells you which one to use. It is a very easy system to follow. Unfortunately, carbon dosing is not a one product fits all situation. But it's not that complex. Measure your PO4 level, then dose the recommended product.
@@louekus4563 thanks for the reply! I think I’m going to try it out, after watching the video again for the second time I think I got a better understanding of everything
Probalby very good anecdotal experience, but very technically flawed. Doesnt speak good about the company if the highest representative talks about monomers and polymers so losely and without knowing what ethanol and acetic acid really are.
Also the statement that the good guys have the ability to use longer molecules and the bad guys can't is hugely wrong. There is no classification or distribution of biological mechanisms in nature based on an aquarist taste, such as good and bad guys.
Now, i am not against carbon dosing. In fact, a 30%70% mix of vodka and white vinegar are doing wonders in my 400g tank. I just dont buy that the tropic marine producs are better that cheap carbon sources. It is just that cheap carbon sources are not good for tropic marine 😂
Sounds like full on mad scientist
Good God. Ekus is right, he isn't a chemist. So much BS on display here.
So much BS and couldn’t point any of it out specifically?