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The Truth Behind Container Farm Yields
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- Опубликовано: 22 мар 2017
- Over the past two or three years, we’ve seen many numbers listed for the production ability of container farms. Most of them have become unrealistic and in some cases totally absurd. The problem? These unrealistic numbers are adversely affecting the success of aspiring farmers.
Today we’re going to give a simple and realistic breakdown of actual production numbers from outdoor production (by the acre) and two types of container farms.
An acre is about 44,000 square feet.
A container farm is 400 square feet, or 1% of an acre.
Just to be clear, that means that to produce an acre of food (we’re going with a standard crop, lettuce) in 400 square feet, you’d have to multiply production by about one hundred times as much. To produce five acres of food in 400 square feet, you’d have to multiply production by five hundred times. If you skip ahead you’ll see that at best container farms could be expected to produce more like a quarter of an acre of produce, or twenty five times as much.
So how much CAN a container farm produce?
Let's work through this... Arizona and California combined represent 96% of U.S. lettuce production with 2 harvests per year. We’re also going to be conservative and assume the numbers for leaf lettuce, which is lighter than head lettuce.
For leaf lettuce, most producers harvesting 12 tons/acre/harvest. At two harvests per year, that’s 24 tons/acre/year. (48,000 pounds) It’s slightly over one pound per square foot per year.
Shipping container farms with vertical technology use 256 ZipGrow Towers per container with 13 heads per Tower and 10.4 harvests per year (using 5 week turns). Depending on the size of the heads being grown (determined mostly by growing conditions and care), this could result in anywhere from 2.16 tons to 6.48 tons per year.
At 2 oz/head… 2.16 ton/year (this is the most realistic number)
This would equate to 9% of an acre, or 10x the production per square foot of outdoor production. Not bad. We don’t need to exaggerate it to have a great production number.
At 4 oz/head... 4.32 ton/year
This would equate to 18% of an acre, or 20x the production per square foot of outdoor production.
At 6 oz per head... 6.48 ton/year
This would equate to 27% acre, or 30x the production per square foot of outdoor production.
A lot of folks will say that vertical container farms don’t represent container farms well - that stacked is different. So let’s run through the numbers and see.
We’ll use a generic stacked container farm as an example, but we’ll be extra generous with the numbers, assuming a 14-foot width (rather than the 10-foot width of most shipping container farms) and a 2 foot access aisle. (Most would have a wider aisle.)
That leaves two 6-foot swaths of space on either side of the aisle for growing space. With a 6-inch trough, we could fit 12 troughs side by side. A normal plant spacing would leave 8 inches between each plant site. (That’s 2/3rds of a foot.)
We’re assuming 5 layers with 18 inches between layers. Also, not all of the footprint of the container is growing space. A conservative number leaves 70% of the footprint to be used for growing, while 30% is being used for storage, work tables, tanks, etc.
That’s 2520 plants growing in the layout at any given time. Using the same 10.4 turns per year, this is what we end up with:
At 2 oz heads... 1.6 ton/year
This would equate to 7% acre, or 7x the production per square foot of outdoor production.
At 4 oz heads... 3.25 ton/year
This would equate to 14% of an acre, or 14x the production per square foot of outdoor production.
At 6 oz heads... 4.9 ton/year
This would equate to 20% of an acre, or 20x the production per square foot of outdoor production.
As you can see, the production potential of container farms is good. The goal is not to say that indoor isn’t productive- it’s incredibly productive! 7 to 20 times the production is an incredible number. But 5 acres in 400 square feet? Not realistic.
If we’re honest about these numbers, then the industry as a whole can move forwards, and producers can be more successful as a result.
This is an important conversation to have. Please comment, ask questions, share, and add your own stories and concerns in the comments.
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Timestamps/What's Covered:
01:25 Numbers behind outdoor production
03:10 Outdoor production vs. vertical container production
09:05 Outdoor production vs. stacked container production
13:23 Truths about indoor farming
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I've been farming salad for 10 years, before salanova existed, and salad farming was a secret shared farmer to farmer, before curtis stone..
I am moving into hydroponics farming while still field planting lettuce. I have multiple designs, my test plot basic low cost/time input greenhouses, no lights, increased planting density by 1/8, but it was more protected as it's kept closed and controlled, and grew faster with proper nutrients, but space wise it's 1/8. I have a vertical design with a 3ft width increases planting density 5/8. A frames have a higher energy and investment cost, depending on how you build them, but the benefits is you can heat the core of that A frame, and the doubling of production essentially doubles your greenhouse volume if growth were similar to in the ground. So as long as the hydroponics investment is under the cost of a greenhouse, and you set up all your systems for efficiency of planting, watering and harvest. Investing in hydroponics makes sense as it will save your back from bending over to harvest, can be heated easier, possibly push salad through it faster and more consistently.
The reality of planting salad is it takes me 1 hour to fertilize and direct seed 200ft of 30" bed space as the cost of $14 for fertilizer and $2 for seed. it takes anywhere from no weeding to 30 minutes depending on your weed bank, installation of drip, bug protection 30mins, and produces around $1200 at $10/lb salad mix. So hydroponics could do $1600 per round of the same space, and since it isnt dirt, there is less labor, less bugs disease, and you could keep planting it as apposed to moving around on a large patch of soil that requires labor to maintain. That is what sells me, labor as I work by myself and have had so many farms that I am tired of fertilizing plots that I am going to move on from eventually.
The other big selling points for me are doing hydroponics in a soil/spent mushroom substrate mix. I have a mushroom farm and making a 2/3 mushroom ratio would reduce soil input like crazy. Also being able to grow all year and have the yields to make it feasable to run LED lights.
Container farm production is a niche market. High quality yields, that are fresh local and sustainable, for restaurants, farmer's market, health clubs,ect. No pesticides, herbicides, no dirt and uses less water than conventional farming and can be grown year round. People want to eat healthier and this is a service that can be provided to that niche.
Yup, lots of awesome benefits if you've got the market and can make the business case for it. We're big fans of serving those local niche markets that are demanding fresh, local, sustainable food. It's generally a much better route for small farmers than going head to head with Big Ag. Thanks for tuning in.
Troy Glover guys , how about the energy costs to keep the container on full time working?
Nickolas Mendes It would end up energy vs fuel probably. Water is also not true all around. Where I'm from you don't really need to water crops unless you have the budget and specific need to for whatever reason. We get enough rain, so your water bill for a container will be all extra cost here instead of less water. Plus fuel prices and electrical prices are different everywhere. Two container farms set up the same way can cost different amounts.
What I don't understand, why can't traditional AG people meet the niche market? Are there no medium farms? Can't they spin off some small parcels of land from whatever the local operations are?
Best to be able to use natural light as much as possible
Profits from indoor/container growing are directly related to productivity for local markets and the ability to be on the doorstep of your customers for both availability and quality.
There isn't the need to mass produce your produce but to be able to be productive enough to satisfy local demand at an affordable price that also makes you a profit at the same time ... start small and build the system to its economic limits.
We in all sectors of the small scale farming industry need to be honest and realistic about the numbers. Whether it be Urban, traditional small farm, indoor growing, livestock, poultry etc. It gets old seeing people come in buried under a mountain of debt and armed with half the story and pie in the sky numbers and a year or three later wondering why they are going down in flames. With realistic and honest numbers a viable plan for start up and growth plan. As it is in every sector there is no shortage of confusion and so everyone is going to be the next super farmer making 1.5 million buck on 1/8th of a acre :( Great job detailing what is real in this sector!
Thanks for tuning in and for the great comment!
Started investigating container farms as a passive interest, and did a little back of the napkin math for a viable business model. Would be an interesting follow-up video from you guys to talk about OpEx costs in more depth and average revenue/lb for various crops. I just don't see how a 1 or 2 container farmer doesn't lose his shirt...
Thanks of the numbers but a basic point that is not being addressed in this video: when you farm lettuce in a field, you get two crops per year that usually takes between 12-16 weeks, but you then move onto growing other veggies since you cant grow lettuce all year long. So the profits from field farming can not be deduced simply from the yields produced from just lettuce and therefore you cant compare just the lettuce yields between these two systems, you have to compare the profits generated per sq ft between a diversified field and a container farm . At most these containers will produces x2 as much lettuce per square foot per turn compared to field farming, you simply get more lettuce per year since you get more harvest cycles per year- but note that you will also pay a higher cost to farm lettuce in a container when you consider the investment. The only real advantage of hydro farming is that you will have a lower labor cost which is a very big deal when it comes to costs savings. The downside of this type of monoculture farming is that you have to have a market for selling all that lettuce. If you have secured your market for all the lettuce and don't have to sell it at a wholesale price just to get rid of it, then yes you will make more growing lettuce in containers yearly due to lower labor costs and year around production- but that is a big IF.
That is true. To be fair, one of the fundamental benefits of indoor growing is the fact that you can get consistent supply for contracts that want consistency. This math doesn't always represent the full productivity of the land though.
rachel kulberg
Of course there was no mention of the extra cost of the lights and the power needed to run them.
LED lights are needed for stacked and their initial cost is high.
Most farmers fail, whenever they fail to Secure a place for their products on the market place Before they start! This leads many into the mind set of “that’s not how we’ve always done it” especially when a new crop is on trend. Some might start into it but they don’t lay down buyers ahead of time for the new product and they get burned.
@@richlaue This system will take care of that, it’s actually pretty ingenious, only one row of lamps for many layers and the plants are rotating ruclips.net/video/4PbaZE7Nfx0/видео.html
where i see containers shine in that they can be stacked you can not stack acerage
good comparison... apples to apples as it were. next item would be a cost comparison for the dirt farm vs the container per year. One has diesel and pesticide ect ect while the other lights, fertilisers ect ect. would love to see you do a presentation that a common fool like me can grasp. keep up the great work!
We'll add that to the list! That type of a comparison will vary largely by scale, do you have a certain scale in mind?
yes! compare by the Production of one-acre of land and tower container size that produces what that one acre of land produces. non- farmer investors/city counsels/community groups could readily follow those concepts and numbers. aircongypsy great question.
I have similar thoughts. Yield per SqFt is a nice but perhaps an unbalanced comparison. The more important comparison is the economic return (Profit) per SqFt AND the ROI. How much Capital and Operating Cost Investment is required to produce continuously off 1 Acre vs the same Under-Protection at the same Output. My guess is that the Economic Comparisons may differ across Crop Types
Keep in mind indoor organics always cost more at least 50% more
Given the climactic variables that we’re experiencing, the ability to simply and sustainably grow enough food to feed one’s family is GOLD.
It’s the difference between the Maunder Minimum and the Eddy Minimum.
It’s the difference between starvation and being well fed.
It’s the difference between life and death.
It’s the difference between then and now.
It’s called adaptability.
Leaving commercial ventures out of the equation, if every family tended and indoor ‘garden,’ so to speak, which almost any apartment or suburban house can accommodate, we can take starvation off the table.
We cannot control the sun, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, Pole Shifts (Magnetic or otherwise), tsunamis, and storms etc, but we *can* prepare for most of these scenarios, and we can certainly grow our own food.
The most immediate challenge, I believe, is getting everyone on board. This cannot be a concept or distant goal, it needs to become the baseline way of thinking. In other words, it needs to become the *norm* NOW!
Love and All Good Things,
Jesse.🌹
www.jesseleighbrackstone.com
Good quality video explaining the complexity of comparison in a very understandable way. So well done Bright Agrotech and thanks.
Thanks for tuning in Graham. Hope you subscribe for more videos like this coming up in the next few weeks.
Thank you so much for this video, I have found this data to be very useful with my project to create an urban farm in the heart of my City, I'm not yet sure whether I will go shipping container or shop-based grow system but your information is an awesome point of comparison . A point I would like to make would be the start up costs based on the true principle that urban farming is actually done in a city.
Here in the UK an acre of land in most cities (London not included) would cost on average £1M ($1.3M) whereas the rental space for a shipping container right in a city centre would be on average about £20K per year ($26K) ... plus in almost all cases the ground in the city would be unsuitable to grow in with ground pollution being the main issue to deal with (yes, I know techniques like straw-bale growing etc. can overcome this but it too would reduce land production space).
So for me an indoor container or shop-based grow system would still be economically viable for the production of food picked fresh for your customers right in the heart of any city or town, plus an attached grocer store and café would add extra value to the venture I hope. Thanks again for your valuable information.
This is excellent, it's always very healthy to look at the claims some people in this sector are making and putting them to scrutiny. I myself have heard some ridiculous "10,000 more productive!" claims that immediately failed to make any mathematical sense.
I would also suggest to make another video that makes a cost comparison between traditional farms and vertical indoor operations.
Absolutely fantastic video! Thank you for cutting through all the misconceptions and still remaining positive.
i love it. its the niche that can go anywhere there's people who eat food they haven't grown.
your videos make talking to landlords sooo much easier. thank you again for another nail on the head vid.
Timestamps/What's Covered:
01:25 Numbers behind outdoor production03:10 Outdoor production vs. vertical container production09:05 Outdoor production vs. stacked container production13:23 Truths about indoor farming
GREAT video! Love the math, and the clear comparisons! Your focus on productivity (and later profitability, I imagine) is appropriate for growers interested in the business, but for at-home Container Farmers, productivity and the financials is an incomplete picture. How do the indicators change when what your eventual end-goal is NUTRITION? So how does the game change (and even the container design) when you start evaluating based on higher nutrition crops?
This is an older video before purpose built containers were really coming onto the market. We will have new container videos coming later in the year that will address some of these questions. Container framing has come a long way in the past 5 years. One that are purpose built with the correct HVAC and layout can be highly productive and produce nutritious food equal to any other controlled environment for fresh produce production.
No mention of the electricity cost of the lighting, heating, or ventilation per container per year?
Maintenance cost like artificial lighting, humidifier etc.
I'm considering investing in a non traditional farm, probably a container. I really appreciate the candid and honesty of your video. Thanks!!!
Listen to this guy, he is sincere, and knows the deal!
Good breakdown, but I would compare a high-end system to a high-end system. A glass Venlo-greenhouse with a MGS system (or a alternative hydrophobic system) vs a container based system. That comparison is closer.
We're just getting started in Vertical Farming in Vietnam. Troy Glover is correct, Container Farm is a niche market. From our point of view, we don't seek to replace field production, we market to specific niche markets. BTW Nate your company name? Agro Tech - the tech of aggro, like UFC? We're using Agritech ;-)
The total cost of production ( energy, water, maintenance, ... ) for the yield must be included in the calculation for realistic comparisons.
Comparisons of the cost of keeping a vertical farm in areas:
1) where the winter temperatures drop below zero degree Celcius ( heating & lighting cost required ) vs where tropical & equatorial climates exist, sunlight & heat are free throughout the year.
2) water supply in wintry & arid lands (higher cost) vs tropical lands with adequate water supply
3) extra exterior maintenance & insulation to keep the hydroponic farm portion of the building from being frozen & heat loss vs such farms in tropical areas
This info is great and we beleive very accurate, however it should be noted that Container growing was developed as a measure to save shipping costs of final harvested product,, they are generally established in areas in Northern Canada where day light is limited and outdoor is not very cost effective, May I suggest a video showing cost of shipping to say a remote area of Onatrio Canada like Timmins, where lettuce products are shipped from across the Country. factor in shipping then you quickly learn that Container growing is far more superior that field farming, one must factor in loss of product as we believe over 30 % of produce goes to waste
How about the nutritional qualities of those lettuce? (Thanks for the right information shared here)
you have just cemented my passion to grow and sell locally micro greens
Did you start yet?
Just what I REALLY needed to hear. TY!
Our pleasure. Glad you enjoyed it!
I like the new style of videos. Sound set up is perfect too.
We've been working on it! Thanks for the feedback - we'll let Ruebin and the awesome Media Team know.
I am curious. Like I get your calculations. But you said 1 contain is 1% of a acre. So what are the numbers if we use 1 acre filled with containers. At that moment the numbers are crazy ? And containers can also be stacked 2 or 3 high on the same place. That way on the same acre. How much increase of productivity do you have ?
Anybody seen "Back to the Future 2" when Martys son in the future asks the house for fruit and a tiny fruit farm descends from the ceiling. The impression I got from that is that there is a tiny automatic farm in the house which is constantly growing them fresh fruit to eat. Since they lived in a very bad neighborhood this is as common as a microwave is now in that future, just as cheap, just as easy to maintain. I like to think we could do something like that with the same technology used in the container farms. So that everyone could just buy a farm for a few hundred dollars, set it up in their home, plug it in and hook it up to water, same as a fridge or a dishwasher. Then every few months you just add a small box of fertilizer or whatever. Bam fresh greens growing in your house non stop with very little human effort to maintain.
As for your comparison its very good. Another comparison that needs done is between cost to consumer. Lettuce grown in California a shipped to Florida has to have a shipping cost associated with it that lettuces grown in Florida in a shipping container wouldn't suffer nearly as high. Also if a restaurant buys a container farm to grow the greens they need they cut out all shipping cost and all middle men who jack the price up a little more. So the question is what is the comparison in the cost lettuce per ton if you buy it from California farmer vs growing it yourself in a container.
Currently at a stage where if you want to compare pure cost per head of lettuce, kilo of produce or however you'd like to word it... The California farmer is making a mockery of the VF numbers. But, it is everything that you have noted which make container farming/urbanised vertical farming viable. BECAUSE of the 'direct to customer' model with transport, storage, marketing groups taken away, the higher production cost in a VF can still keep competitive prices.
I would make a vague assumption (not being a lettuce man, but a commercial soft fruit producer) that the Californian farmer is growing at a tenth of the cost it does for a vertical farming set up.
Although those kind of comparisons vary hugely because there are so many different sources for all the different crops. But I see where you're coming from.
To be honest about the numbers, why would you use leaf lettuces in the field and head lettuces in container? Why would you not compare head lettuce field production to head lettuce container production, or leaf lettuce against leaf lettuce?
I'd like to see a financial presentation on this topic. For example, how much does that acre of CA land cost, what are the taxes, what does the water cost, plant nutrition, harvesting equipment, etc...? We saw that container ranges from 1/10th of an acre to 1/4th of an acre. Perhaps take the middle ground at 4 oz. heads and provide the same information. I believe it would take about six containers to grow the equivalent of the acre. How much for six containers? Much less water means much less cost for water. How much is the cost for water? How much to harvest? It seems ergonomics will have to be investigated for those folks reaching into the 18" spaces to harvest. What will it be like to be down on one's knees harvesting the bottom row? What kind of ladder will be needed to harvest the top layer of the stack? One thing that is rarely fully understood is the GHG emissions issue. What will be the ecological PLUSES of doing this kind of farming over the CA acre? Marketing is another whole animal - how will this be brought to market? My concern is this: in order to make this economically feasible, who many containers are needed in a city, for example, in order for the farm to be profitable? Then, MOST IMPORTANTLY, will there be a supply chain and delivery mechanism to get this to the city outlets and the consumer? What size city is needed to take this crop? For example, a small city like Harrisburg, PA could probably NOT sustain this business model, while a larger city like Boston, MA might be on the cusp between going broke and just squeaking by. Then, a large city like Miami, FL might me the golden egg. Who has done this economic analysis? This comparison that you did was helpful, even though it didn't consider the weather related issues that can plague outdoor farming, which I think is the primary reason Vertical Farming has a place in the future, but I want to see the economics...if available.
Usually, roman lettuce is sold at about 70~75g/head without root, or 3oz roughly.
I think you might have overestimated the yield from a 5 acre field. At the 6:40 time you said it would produce 125,000 tons. That seems to be about a 1000 fold too high.
Wayne! Good catch that was supposed to be 125 tons... A few too many zeros to keep track of. Thanks for pointing that out!
Excellent Thanks for sharing the leg pull. Glad I found you
Glad to help Richard, thanks for coming!
Excellent speaker. Just a pleasure to listen to. And awesome math job done.
Thanks for nice videos.
Can you please make videos on cost comparison of these two different methods of farming? I. E. Fertilizer, light, co2 machines... etc.
It is an incredible insight into how the US has to do the most confusing maths.
How anyone is able to do mental math in an Imperial system, or can easily follow any mathematical conversations is beyond me.
We should compare exact operating cost as well for one sqf.
Good video nate. hate the figures that get chucked about. One thing you never touched on, whichever system you use, zip grow or stacked is one thing but 1acre of farmland is always going to be one acre. One container equals 1% of an acre but I can imediately double that without increasing the footprint as the containers themselves can be stacked and the sky's the limit there. We need to think up up and more up. using the lowest figures containers are 10 times more efficient, so I need 10 containers to equal 1 acre, let's say 9 if I can get slightly higher figures than the lowest figure you used. 3 containers side by side and 3 high. so per square foot each 3 stack is 30 times more efficient. The higher we go, the better the numbers get. I'm waiting for someone putting a farm in a disused alleyway that you can fit 2 side by side perhaps 2 lenthways but 4 containers high to really pump out the tonnage. If I only had the funds!
Thank you for the video. Sounds like someone started doing math like you can pile containers so high, minus some walking space, times production per container... and people who skip reading the full article understood that as "one container can produce X times as much as an acre" instead of comparing an acre of vertical farms to an acre of farmland.
Bottom line...... The goal isn't to become or take the place of a commercial/corporate farm, it's about self-sufficiency - knowing what you're consuming into your body - not being subjected to decisions others are making based in their profit vs your survival. I'm NOT a SURVIVALIST. I'm an older guy that was born when times were simpler. I want to go back to a time were we were more connected to our humanity. Live and work together. Keep the good stuff that has evolved with time. Trash the crap that has complicated our lives and made us sick because we "thought" it was better and clean up the way we live. And we don't all have to produce our own food, but at least know where it comes from and who had a hand in it. Urban farms come to mind. I live in downtown Atlanta and it so happens my high rise building is beside the space where they have a weekly farmers market once a week 9 months out of the year. It's the second largest ALL Organic Farmers Market in the country. MANY Urban Farmers, but everything grown or produced at most and hour or two away. It's not going to feed the entire city, but it will feed the COMMUNITY.
This is an awesome start with the real #'s! Thanks for this!
Any ideas on where I can look at costs? Startup and recurring?
Thanks for this!
I can get up to four cuts on a bed of lettuce but do rotate to another bed after that. I grow in an unheated high tunnel and can have production year-round though it is harvest in winter and not growing. Up front, costs are very considerably less. I am still very impressed with the method and feel combined with fish is the farming of the future
Excellent presentation. I am considering opening up a vertical farm and could use all the help in planning that I can get.
Please address the cost impact of added labor and materials
SafariBroadcasting simple. 1 persons easley maintains a space of 320 sq ft vs buddy in the field 43,300 sq ft (more time walking around and further to carry)
Basic math - as You said 1 container is equal to 1/100 of an acre yeah ? So if you grow 24 tons per acre per year, and you grow 2 tons per container. thus. you need up to 12 containers to match that amount so you are >8 more time efficient than a traditional farmer. In other words, assuming that 1 container is 1/100 of an acre and produce 2 tonnes, so 100 containters would produce 200tons of lettuce. (without any modifications). With little bit of tweaking and upgrades you are as 10 times more efficient, If we use most advanced "container farms" and take into account that one can produce 6 tones per container it takes only 4 containers to match whole acre production.
Thank you for this. Still incredibly relevant. You were ahead.
Hi Jessie, thank you. Glad that it was helpful!
How do you regulate temperature, humidity, water and ventilation?
Just wondering if anyone has a link to a good set up plan
Thanks
I am interested in setting up for mushrooms
Thanks so much for this, Nate, necessary info for everyone.
Happy to help here, Andrew. Thanks for tuning in!
What about the pest risk factored in? Field growing will require more pest management (pesticide use).
Water usage and environmental challenges should also be considered.
Great work... Lot's of research... Thanks...
This really puts us in a better way to make decisions on where and when to use a farm or container for production...
you've low-balled field growing. We use cold frame and poly tunnel during shoulder month of spring and fall. We also transplant 2-3wk old lettuce plugs so we can get more than 2 harvest per season in zone 7.
Give you an idea, Elliot Coleman claims to get about 10-20x productivity of his field over conventional ag. But this would not be a fair comparison since he is at extreme end of field productivity and most all farmers will not get that kind of number. He used gross sales figure for the comparison.
I'm also an early adopter of zipgrow. We own fair number of them and I can say that production of tower is about 10x over field for a given footprint.
This discussion is long over due and its been a real sore point for me. Outrageous claims makes for loss of credibility and loss of sale.
Thank you for this much needed discussion.
Hi Shawn, thanks for taking part in the convo! You're right, the numbers are not reflective of small scale market gardens/soil plots under greenhouse coverings at all. This video was specifically looking at the comparison being made by repurposed freight container claims which always like to compare indoor/container arms vs. the massive industrial ag operations which as you know are nowhere near as efficient as the farms being run in more innovative ways as you mention.
We're grateful to have folks like you in the community and weighing in on these important conversations. We're just trying to ensure that modern farmers like yourself are not getting a bad rap or lose credibility from such misguided metrics!
Thanks again for the comment and hope you're well.
Shawn Ueda ty for your additional points. Is that zone 7a or 7b you spoke of?
These videos are awesome. What's the production difference between greenhouse and indoor?
Too many variables to tackle in one answer, Timothy!
I have some doubt practically simply because:
1) operating electricity cost is higher.
2) much difficult space to work. Which in term increase the man hour
3) huge CAPEX which takes years to recovered. Even if I hyperthetically agreed you can produce 5 tons per years @ highest $4/kg, that's 20K per year - electricity - labor cost - depreciation of 5k a year's.. I doubted one can really profit at all.
Sacked can improve in space effeciency with automation and floating beds. A transplant stage to give more room at the halfway point and a machine that can lift multiple levels at once can reduce labor. From what I've seen, Zip Grow has a bit of an automation issue. Automated transplanting is well practiced. I bet we could implement weekly transplants to reduce space waste by a significant margin.
thanks for this video. you're right its not a this vs that but rather the costs ...and for me living in a country (one giant city actually) that ships 95% of its produce from overseas ....that faster time to market is a premium ... seems like we should be able to bring the farm INTO the city at only a slight penalty . thnks again for sharing the numbers
Hello. Thanks for the efford. Hope you dont mind to do a video on comparing the system maintenance cost of the container VS the machinery cost of the land. :)
I've now watched a few of your videos and I think that was one of the best. Thank you.
Thanks for watching! Be sure to subscribe for more videos publishing each week.
Love the video. Great job. At some point won't we have to start using volume instead of area in the future? To get a true comparison.
Great information and video presentation. Amazing technology. Wonderful company. Thank you. Do you have any programs to help finance and help start-up a non profit?
Brillant video. really gets down to the crooks of it. perfect for anyone toying with the idea to get some bench marks. My only question is what are the dimensions of a 400 foot container? All the containers i've owned have been 8 foot wide. I can only assume that yours is 10 foot x 40 foot?
Are there scientific comparisons done on the nutrient composition of hydroponic vs field grown veggies ?
If it is available, please provide a link
That comparision would be pretty much impossible to do properly. There are too many factors on both ends. But it all comes down to soil and solution. You can adjust it in both soil and hydro to your standards.
There is another comment here on lack of microbes in hydro. Well if you go around checking amount of microbes and nutrients in soil around even the same state you will be surprised how vastly different it is. Same goes for hydro, but guess what no matter where you go there will be plenty, including various fungi that appears in hydro naturally.
So bottom line it doesnt matter if its soil or hydro it all depends on grower. You want and should do proper measurements in both soil and hydro and supply with missing components. All of them including microbes are available, again for both hydro and soil. But of course having hydro setup makes it just slightly easier to control.
If you fill an acre with 40 feet containers you can produce 294 tons of lettuce per year. Did the math.
Don't forget you can stack your containers.
I have a question... You were saying that turnaround time in the container is 10.4 per year or a 5 week growing season... and then you were talking about lettuce that were 2 oz, 4 oz, and 6 oz. Does 6 oz's of lettuce take 5 weeks just like 2 oz's or does it take longer to get bigger? Thanks Am I confusing heads of lettuce vs leaves picked from different plants and thrown together? Thanks!
Great video, thanks for sharing. Do these metrics apply to hydroponics as well as aquaponics-based indoor/container farming? If not, is one noticeably more productive than the other? You mentioned that some farming methods exceeding these metrics and I am wondering which indoor/containing farming methods tend to experience this.
Hi Christopher. This can be a hot topic. Nate's talking about the fact that the hydroponic industry is rife with companies that knowingly skew their yields by comparing with traditional outdoor agriculture. The bottom line is that hydroponics certainly can be more productive per square foot, especially when farming on true vertical planes, but some would have you believe that it's far more productive than it is, so be wary of companies overestimating yields.
Here in hawaii we have a lot of pests and brain eating parasites (rat lungworm)
Indoor growing is the only safe way I can see to grow high quality greens.
Yikes! It can definitely allow more control over pest/disease, but growing indoors doesn't give you complete immunity by any means. A strong IPM strategy is recommended for all commercial growers, regardless of technique. More on IPM: ruclips.net/video/xluhQSDLwUU/видео.html
Great video and explanation of the maths , definitely food for thought on my planning process right now.
Great to hear it was helpful. Holler if we can help with anything else.
How, can we learn to build our own indoor growth farm. That is profitable and has the technology with it. I have been reading and sourcing lots of information. Your video is by far the best i have cone across.
Do.you do
Consultations
Please let me know
Great pres.
Yes Michael we do, I can have a sales rep contact you. Please email us at hello@zipgrow.com
@@ZipGrowInc when.I have.land in Atlantic city
And one container
I want to build my own
Farm...
What happens to the healthy microbes our stomach needs that we get from the soil through the plants. Will aeroponics upset this natural balance?
healthy bacteria would still exist in the soil and plant. also, the healthy bacteria in your digestive tract, like Escherichia coli, may come from the food you eat, but If you were to have an excess of E.coli from ingestion, it could lead to serious problems in your gut.
@@rokinco8598 e-coli is not the only bacteria found in dirt, it has been documented that the healthiest children in the west live on farms and are exposed to all the dirt.
@@richlaue i know that. Just using it as an example
That's a REALLY good question.
Not all soil has a lot of microbes and lots of hydro setups have plenty. Also you can supplement hydro with microbes.
Concerning the shipping containers , the only dimensions I found are 40 ft by 8 ft containers, which is 320 square ft and not 400 square ft. Do you know from where 400 ft containers can be purchased ?
Not sure this is being answered by Bright any longer, but maybe someone can explain...
When he compares an acre of land to two container scenarios, he goes on to increase the yield by increasing the weight per head. But the reference acre was producing lettuce of a fluffy kind :-), which I would take as being the 2 oz head, no? In which case, they could too produce heavier heads, exactly countering the increase by increased weight. What am I not understanding here?
PS: I too struggle with the ounces, inches, two-third feet etc. To top it off, don't forget that a US ton is 2000 lb, hence 907 kg, not a clean-cut 1000 kg... ;-) But the logic is the same, and you can make rough recalculations of the end results!
does it scale? if i have land and put FIVE containers on it, will i get 5 times your number?
An interesting look into growing in shipping containers, thanks for the numbers!
Happy to lend a hand, JT. Hope you're well.
Can you PLEASE use the metric system like the rest of the world!? This would make so much easier, especially when you talk about numbers.
And thank you for all this great content
Excellent information but what is the cost difference to produce a pound of product on farm vs indoor container as I assume the cost of machinery, chemical spreading, weed control, labor, water use, transportation, spoilage,and other things are different between the two types of farming that make a large impact on the final cost comparisons. A presentation showing these numbers would be most informative.
Well done for you in-depth research. Can you also make a comparison between Greenhouse vs Conventional farming
Very clear for Joe Bloggs me. Thank you. Probably already out there but a comparrison of costs to produce would be interesting (inc field grown organic). I'm fortunate to be able to grow my own, thank goodness. I wouldn't do the maths on that yet, first year, scary!
I’m interested on container farming for blueberries/raspberries; what would be a good thumb rule to compare acre production vs container?
Great info...can you also talk about the limits of what you can grow. Because my village needs tomatoes onions and watermelons not these baby greens beside the big lettuce
Brilliant .......for doing the thinking & putting this up .....................
Nice to see some honesty!! However your very light on your assumptions per acre production. Two turns per year I’ll agree with however most veg farmers I know are growing four and six side by side furrows between waterways !!! Making even your numbers “light” we grew 2000 acres of Cotton but have also grown potatoes carrots barley corn, alfalfa. My point is that even you sir are light on what you say farmers actually produce from my personal experience. Container people do some amazing things but more often than not they talk out their own asses regarding real production because they never tell you about their failures!!!
Thank you for the honest figures.
It only works if your on solar.
This is very interesting! And many questions come to my head...
In my opinion, making a comparison based solely in terms of production is insufficient. Personally, I think that things like the ecological cost of all the materials used, the ecological and economic cost of the electricity needed for production, the cost of maintenance, if the method generates residual heat that is contributed to the environment and increases the problem of global warming, etc, should be considered. And I also think it should be specified whether the comparison is made with industrial or regenerative agriculture.
Could you cite your source for the outdoor production?
"For leaf lettuce, most producers harvesting 12 tons/acre/harvest. At two harvests per year, that’s 24 tons/acre/year. (48,000 pounds) It’s slightly over one pound per square foot per year." I believe you say it is the "rule of thumb" but I would like to see the source you used.
Great video. Which of the two options would you say are most labour intensive (towers vs stacked troughs), and would you choose hydroponics over aquaponics?
Thank you.
I know you made some of these points in the video, but id like to reiterate:
It is amazing, because you don't need the land, you don't need the WATER (which in california and AZ is going to be GONE), and you can STACK these containers. To make the point even more interesting, you need to TRUCK this food from california to other parts of the country. If we can decentralize this idea and put these containers in every city in America its magnitudes more efficient, even if the marketing numbers are BS.
Lets do some additional math -
current price of lettuce is 3.47 per pound (as of January 2022) - I would link but probably wont work.
5 Ton per year = 3.47 * 2000 * 5 = $34,000 per year gross revenue assuming you can sell lettuce per pound, and your profits aren't completely destroyed by costs.
These turnkey container farms cost 15-25k per container, so assuming you spend half of your revenue on expenses, and assuming you have the ability to sell every single pound, you can pay off the cost of a single container in a year.
Obviously this is a big IF, selling 10,000 units of lettuce is no easy task for a random startup farmer.
I guess at the end of the day, the point is that globalization and inflation is changing how much things cost, water shortages are impacting how much we can grow, and the entire ag industry is an unsustainable mess that will eventually collapse on itself if we dont start making changes to how we grow food. I really hope that decentralized growing becomes the way that we solve this problem, because everyone, or at least every grocery store in every town could have its own container and we wouldnt be trying to grow these things year round in water restricted desert regions, destroying our ecosystems.
These containers are costing $150K plus shipping and set up not $15-$25K unfortunately.
So then just get 10 containers and stack them up on each other so you have 5 on the ground and 5 on top. Now you can produce as much on 1/10 of an acre as you would on 1 whole acre. Right?
Thanks. Was looking for something like this. A good start to more accurate numbers
Your 8 width container would only give you 2 feet to work in and that's if you don't have any insulation within that 8 foot container. I am interested in the footprint of the nutrition production is that something that's known and could be included in the sustainability equation?
Yes ergonomics are terrible less than 8ft wide with added insulation.
If you ask yourself “should I buy an acre of land in California or a shipping container?”, why not buy an acre and fill it with containers, stacked ?!
Numbers are what they are and can be manipulated at will. They have to be put into a larger context, i.e. “what’s the ROI for that head of lettuce you’re talking about?”.
Also, if people buying into the vertical farming idea don’t use basic math to plan their business and end up belly up they can only blame themselves. Saving the world with vertical farming is the idea sales people use to sell the turnkey farms. In the end, it’s a business like any other and it’s all about economics. If you feel good on top of making money then it’s an added benefit.
I like container farming for our own use... we can’t do outdoor farming due to animals around ( mole, squirrel, rabbits, birds 🦅).. this is what I am looking for to maximize use of our 5 acres.
Liked and commenting for algorithms! Great info, and thanks for considering the negative effects these claims can make.
I really need the same comparison done between freight/containers and greenhouses. Can someone please help?
We have almost 8 acres. But I only want to Farm 5 Acres. What would you grow here to make alot of money in Lewisburg, KY? And how? & I want it to be a U- Pick Farm. I want a
Vertical Hydrphonic Farming
Great info. Thank you!
Energy consumption?
Really great video, thanks so much for sharing it. When you take into account water usage and fertiliser costs, indoor growing wins even more. Add overheads and labour costs it gets even better in my opinion 😅
Thanks Brian, glad that you like it!
The numbers are a little off. I have seen numbers more in the area of 9 heads per tower. The overhead is substantial as while a tractor and planting and spraying equipment and harvesting equipment is substantial in price, the equipment can be used for many acres. The price for a container farm is in the range of $150-180k per container and even if the container grew as much as a full acre of land the same ratio of overhead to yield would mean the field farmer would have $15M dollars in overhead. The container overhead does not include land to place the container either and most urban land is at higher prices than farm land. I am not disagreeing with you at all about the quality and the benefits of hydroponic farming but as a business container farms have some issues that may not make it the best option for many. I would definitely consider a container farm if I owned a grocery store and had some space on the side of the building as it would increase my margin and offer a premium product that could be displayed and generate sales for all my products.
Zip Grow makes some nice growing systems and while tempting has viable competition from DWC and NFT systems as well as aeroponic systems. The variety of plants that can be grown in a Zip Grow farm is limited as the weight of the plants is limited to what will not be pulled from the media. I am looking for more information on their systems as I have been investing in a variety of systems and testing what works best for my interests. Zip Grow be a solution for some aspects, but I am not looking for puff sales pieces that advertise overblown yields and fancy computer operations when a timer and daily pH and EC or ppm tests would suffice.
can you grow tomatoes onions and watermelons? And how would it work to grows them in a outdoor greenhouse and idk whichever term used hydro or aquaponic .... whichever system that will cost and help use less water and chemicals but grow organically...please do advice me or any of y'all experts...my village is depending on me getting started on this for improving their little farm
loved this presentation. At least those numbers made it more clear. :)