I've been farming salad for 10 years, before salanova existed, and salad farming was a secret shared farmer to farmer, before curtis stone.. I am moving into hydroponics farming while still field planting lettuce. I have multiple designs, my test plot basic low cost/time input greenhouses, no lights, increased planting density by 1/8, but it was more protected as it's kept closed and controlled, and grew faster with proper nutrients, but space wise it's 1/8. I have a vertical design with a 3ft width increases planting density 5/8. A frames have a higher energy and investment cost, depending on how you build them, but the benefits is you can heat the core of that A frame, and the doubling of production essentially doubles your greenhouse volume if growth were similar to in the ground. So as long as the hydroponics investment is under the cost of a greenhouse, and you set up all your systems for efficiency of planting, watering and harvest. Investing in hydroponics makes sense as it will save your back from bending over to harvest, can be heated easier, possibly push salad through it faster and more consistently. The reality of planting salad is it takes me 1 hour to fertilize and direct seed 200ft of 30" bed space as the cost of $14 for fertilizer and $2 for seed. it takes anywhere from no weeding to 30 minutes depending on your weed bank, installation of drip, bug protection 30mins, and produces around $1200 at $10/lb salad mix. So hydroponics could do $1600 per round of the same space, and since it isnt dirt, there is less labor, less bugs disease, and you could keep planting it as apposed to moving around on a large patch of soil that requires labor to maintain. That is what sells me, labor as I work by myself and have had so many farms that I am tired of fertilizing plots that I am going to move on from eventually. The other big selling points for me are doing hydroponics in a soil/spent mushroom substrate mix. I have a mushroom farm and making a 2/3 mushroom ratio would reduce soil input like crazy. Also being able to grow all year and have the yields to make it feasable to run LED lights.
Container farm production is a niche market. High quality yields, that are fresh local and sustainable, for restaurants, farmer's market, health clubs,ect. No pesticides, herbicides, no dirt and uses less water than conventional farming and can be grown year round. People want to eat healthier and this is a service that can be provided to that niche.
Yup, lots of awesome benefits if you've got the market and can make the business case for it. We're big fans of serving those local niche markets that are demanding fresh, local, sustainable food. It's generally a much better route for small farmers than going head to head with Big Ag. Thanks for tuning in.
Nickolas Mendes It would end up energy vs fuel probably. Water is also not true all around. Where I'm from you don't really need to water crops unless you have the budget and specific need to for whatever reason. We get enough rain, so your water bill for a container will be all extra cost here instead of less water. Plus fuel prices and electrical prices are different everywhere. Two container farms set up the same way can cost different amounts.
What I don't understand, why can't traditional AG people meet the niche market? Are there no medium farms? Can't they spin off some small parcels of land from whatever the local operations are?
Profits from indoor/container growing are directly related to productivity for local markets and the ability to be on the doorstep of your customers for both availability and quality. There isn't the need to mass produce your produce but to be able to be productive enough to satisfy local demand at an affordable price that also makes you a profit at the same time ... start small and build the system to its economic limits.
Thanks of the numbers but a basic point that is not being addressed in this video: when you farm lettuce in a field, you get two crops per year that usually takes between 12-16 weeks, but you then move onto growing other veggies since you cant grow lettuce all year long. So the profits from field farming can not be deduced simply from the yields produced from just lettuce and therefore you cant compare just the lettuce yields between these two systems, you have to compare the profits generated per sq ft between a diversified field and a container farm . At most these containers will produces x2 as much lettuce per square foot per turn compared to field farming, you simply get more lettuce per year since you get more harvest cycles per year- but note that you will also pay a higher cost to farm lettuce in a container when you consider the investment. The only real advantage of hydro farming is that you will have a lower labor cost which is a very big deal when it comes to costs savings. The downside of this type of monoculture farming is that you have to have a market for selling all that lettuce. If you have secured your market for all the lettuce and don't have to sell it at a wholesale price just to get rid of it, then yes you will make more growing lettuce in containers yearly due to lower labor costs and year around production- but that is a big IF.
That is true. To be fair, one of the fundamental benefits of indoor growing is the fact that you can get consistent supply for contracts that want consistency. This math doesn't always represent the full productivity of the land though.
Of course there was no mention of the extra cost of the lights and the power needed to run them. LED lights are needed for stacked and their initial cost is high.
Most farmers fail, whenever they fail to Secure a place for their products on the market place Before they start! This leads many into the mind set of “that’s not how we’ve always done it” especially when a new crop is on trend. Some might start into it but they don’t lay down buyers ahead of time for the new product and they get burned.
@@richlaue This system will take care of that, it’s actually pretty ingenious, only one row of lamps for many layers and the plants are rotating ruclips.net/video/4PbaZE7Nfx0/видео.html
Started investigating container farms as a passive interest, and did a little back of the napkin math for a viable business model. Would be an interesting follow-up video from you guys to talk about OpEx costs in more depth and average revenue/lb for various crops. I just don't see how a 1 or 2 container farmer doesn't lose his shirt...
We in all sectors of the small scale farming industry need to be honest and realistic about the numbers. Whether it be Urban, traditional small farm, indoor growing, livestock, poultry etc. It gets old seeing people come in buried under a mountain of debt and armed with half the story and pie in the sky numbers and a year or three later wondering why they are going down in flames. With realistic and honest numbers a viable plan for start up and growth plan. As it is in every sector there is no shortage of confusion and so everyone is going to be the next super farmer making 1.5 million buck on 1/8th of a acre :( Great job detailing what is real in this sector!
i love it. its the niche that can go anywhere there's people who eat food they haven't grown. your videos make talking to landlords sooo much easier. thank you again for another nail on the head vid.
Given the climactic variables that we’re experiencing, the ability to simply and sustainably grow enough food to feed one’s family is GOLD. It’s the difference between the Maunder Minimum and the Eddy Minimum. It’s the difference between starvation and being well fed. It’s the difference between life and death. It’s the difference between then and now. It’s called adaptability. Leaving commercial ventures out of the equation, if every family tended and indoor ‘garden,’ so to speak, which almost any apartment or suburban house can accommodate, we can take starvation off the table. We cannot control the sun, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, Pole Shifts (Magnetic or otherwise), tsunamis, and storms etc, but we *can* prepare for most of these scenarios, and we can certainly grow our own food. The most immediate challenge, I believe, is getting everyone on board. This cannot be a concept or distant goal, it needs to become the baseline way of thinking. In other words, it needs to become the *norm* NOW! Love and All Good Things, Jesse.🌹 www.jesseleighbrackstone.com
Timestamps/What's Covered: 01:25 Numbers behind outdoor production03:10 Outdoor production vs. vertical container production09:05 Outdoor production vs. stacked container production13:23 Truths about indoor farming
This is excellent, it's always very healthy to look at the claims some people in this sector are making and putting them to scrutiny. I myself have heard some ridiculous "10,000 more productive!" claims that immediately failed to make any mathematical sense. I would also suggest to make another video that makes a cost comparison between traditional farms and vertical indoor operations.
Thank you so much for this video, I have found this data to be very useful with my project to create an urban farm in the heart of my City, I'm not yet sure whether I will go shipping container or shop-based grow system but your information is an awesome point of comparison . A point I would like to make would be the start up costs based on the true principle that urban farming is actually done in a city. Here in the UK an acre of land in most cities (London not included) would cost on average £1M ($1.3M) whereas the rental space for a shipping container right in a city centre would be on average about £20K per year ($26K) ... plus in almost all cases the ground in the city would be unsuitable to grow in with ground pollution being the main issue to deal with (yes, I know techniques like straw-bale growing etc. can overcome this but it too would reduce land production space). So for me an indoor container or shop-based grow system would still be economically viable for the production of food picked fresh for your customers right in the heart of any city or town, plus an attached grocer store and café would add extra value to the venture I hope. Thanks again for your valuable information.
good comparison... apples to apples as it were. next item would be a cost comparison for the dirt farm vs the container per year. One has diesel and pesticide ect ect while the other lights, fertilisers ect ect. would love to see you do a presentation that a common fool like me can grasp. keep up the great work!
yes! compare by the Production of one-acre of land and tower container size that produces what that one acre of land produces. non- farmer investors/city counsels/community groups could readily follow those concepts and numbers. aircongypsy great question.
I have similar thoughts. Yield per SqFt is a nice but perhaps an unbalanced comparison. The more important comparison is the economic return (Profit) per SqFt AND the ROI. How much Capital and Operating Cost Investment is required to produce continuously off 1 Acre vs the same Under-Protection at the same Output. My guess is that the Economic Comparisons may differ across Crop Types
I am curious. Like I get your calculations. But you said 1 contain is 1% of a acre. So what are the numbers if we use 1 acre filled with containers. At that moment the numbers are crazy ? And containers can also be stacked 2 or 3 high on the same place. That way on the same acre. How much increase of productivity do you have ?
I have a question... You were saying that turnaround time in the container is 10.4 per year or a 5 week growing season... and then you were talking about lettuce that were 2 oz, 4 oz, and 6 oz. Does 6 oz's of lettuce take 5 weeks just like 2 oz's or does it take longer to get bigger? Thanks Am I confusing heads of lettuce vs leaves picked from different plants and thrown together? Thanks!
GREAT video! Love the math, and the clear comparisons! Your focus on productivity (and later profitability, I imagine) is appropriate for growers interested in the business, but for at-home Container Farmers, productivity and the financials is an incomplete picture. How do the indicators change when what your eventual end-goal is NUTRITION? So how does the game change (and even the container design) when you start evaluating based on higher nutrition crops?
This is an older video before purpose built containers were really coming onto the market. We will have new container videos coming later in the year that will address some of these questions. Container framing has come a long way in the past 5 years. One that are purpose built with the correct HVAC and layout can be highly productive and produce nutritious food equal to any other controlled environment for fresh produce production.
Good breakdown, but I would compare a high-end system to a high-end system. A glass Venlo-greenhouse with a MGS system (or a alternative hydrophobic system) vs a container based system. That comparison is closer.
I think you might have overestimated the yield from a 5 acre field. At the 6:40 time you said it would produce 125,000 tons. That seems to be about a 1000 fold too high.
This info is great and we beleive very accurate, however it should be noted that Container growing was developed as a measure to save shipping costs of final harvested product,, they are generally established in areas in Northern Canada where day light is limited and outdoor is not very cost effective, May I suggest a video showing cost of shipping to say a remote area of Onatrio Canada like Timmins, where lettuce products are shipped from across the Country. factor in shipping then you quickly learn that Container growing is far more superior that field farming, one must factor in loss of product as we believe over 30 % of produce goes to waste
Hi Luis, This is a great question and an excellent point! Dry weight is a much more accurate comparison for scientific purposes however because most farmers do not have the time or capacity to weigh this way we log our data as fresh weight for most edible crops so that comparisons can more easily be made. When working with some herbs and herbal medicines it is preferred to log dry weight as it is much more indicative of a successful yield.
SafariBroadcasting simple. 1 persons easley maintains a space of 320 sq ft vs buddy in the field 43,300 sq ft (more time walking around and further to carry)
The total cost of production ( energy, water, maintenance, ... ) for the yield must be included in the calculation for realistic comparisons. Comparisons of the cost of keeping a vertical farm in areas: 1) where the winter temperatures drop below zero degree Celcius ( heating & lighting cost required ) vs where tropical & equatorial climates exist, sunlight & heat are free throughout the year. 2) water supply in wintry & arid lands (higher cost) vs tropical lands with adequate water supply 3) extra exterior maintenance & insulation to keep the hydroponic farm portion of the building from being frozen & heat loss vs such farms in tropical areas
That comparision would be pretty much impossible to do properly. There are too many factors on both ends. But it all comes down to soil and solution. You can adjust it in both soil and hydro to your standards. There is another comment here on lack of microbes in hydro. Well if you go around checking amount of microbes and nutrients in soil around even the same state you will be surprised how vastly different it is. Same goes for hydro, but guess what no matter where you go there will be plenty, including various fungi that appears in hydro naturally. So bottom line it doesnt matter if its soil or hydro it all depends on grower. You want and should do proper measurements in both soil and hydro and supply with missing components. All of them including microbes are available, again for both hydro and soil. But of course having hydro setup makes it just slightly easier to control.
Anybody seen "Back to the Future 2" when Martys son in the future asks the house for fruit and a tiny fruit farm descends from the ceiling. The impression I got from that is that there is a tiny automatic farm in the house which is constantly growing them fresh fruit to eat. Since they lived in a very bad neighborhood this is as common as a microwave is now in that future, just as cheap, just as easy to maintain. I like to think we could do something like that with the same technology used in the container farms. So that everyone could just buy a farm for a few hundred dollars, set it up in their home, plug it in and hook it up to water, same as a fridge or a dishwasher. Then every few months you just add a small box of fertilizer or whatever. Bam fresh greens growing in your house non stop with very little human effort to maintain. As for your comparison its very good. Another comparison that needs done is between cost to consumer. Lettuce grown in California a shipped to Florida has to have a shipping cost associated with it that lettuces grown in Florida in a shipping container wouldn't suffer nearly as high. Also if a restaurant buys a container farm to grow the greens they need they cut out all shipping cost and all middle men who jack the price up a little more. So the question is what is the comparison in the cost lettuce per ton if you buy it from California farmer vs growing it yourself in a container.
Currently at a stage where if you want to compare pure cost per head of lettuce, kilo of produce or however you'd like to word it... The California farmer is making a mockery of the VF numbers. But, it is everything that you have noted which make container farming/urbanised vertical farming viable. BECAUSE of the 'direct to customer' model with transport, storage, marketing groups taken away, the higher production cost in a VF can still keep competitive prices. I would make a vague assumption (not being a lettuce man, but a commercial soft fruit producer) that the Californian farmer is growing at a tenth of the cost it does for a vertical farming set up. Although those kind of comparisons vary hugely because there are so many different sources for all the different crops. But I see where you're coming from.
The heat question is a really important one for indoor growers to answer as heat can lead to humidity, pests, disease, etc. It will largely depend on how much space you have to install systems that help mitigate the heat- something typically difficult to do when growing in confined spaces like up-cycled shipping containers without adequate insulation. That said, many of our farmers use CoolBar water-cooled lights that help to pull heat away from the growing environment through a chiller and not having to rely as heavily on HVAC units. You can learn more here: ruclips.net/video/Y_voiiYbZV8/видео.html
Your 8 width container would only give you 2 feet to work in and that's if you don't have any insulation within that 8 foot container. I am interested in the footprint of the nutrition production is that something that's known and could be included in the sustainability equation?
How much of a drop off in pound/foot would there be if did the hydro outdoor over land rather than in the soil? Would think the consistency of nutrients and using less water would be attractive. Would it not be possible to Hydro outdoors on the very same acre and perhaps get a better pound/foot?
healthy bacteria would still exist in the soil and plant. also, the healthy bacteria in your digestive tract, like Escherichia coli, may come from the food you eat, but If you were to have an excess of E.coli from ingestion, it could lead to serious problems in your gut.
@@rokinco8598 e-coli is not the only bacteria found in dirt, it has been documented that the healthiest children in the west live on farms and are exposed to all the dirt.
We're just getting started in Vertical Farming in Vietnam. Troy Glover is correct, Container Farm is a niche market. From our point of view, we don't seek to replace field production, we market to specific niche markets. BTW Nate your company name? Agro Tech - the tech of aggro, like UFC? We're using Agritech ;-)
Thank you for the video. Sounds like someone started doing math like you can pile containers so high, minus some walking space, times production per container... and people who skip reading the full article understood that as "one container can produce X times as much as an acre" instead of comparing an acre of vertical farms to an acre of farmland.
I'd like to see a financial presentation on this topic. For example, how much does that acre of CA land cost, what are the taxes, what does the water cost, plant nutrition, harvesting equipment, etc...? We saw that container ranges from 1/10th of an acre to 1/4th of an acre. Perhaps take the middle ground at 4 oz. heads and provide the same information. I believe it would take about six containers to grow the equivalent of the acre. How much for six containers? Much less water means much less cost for water. How much is the cost for water? How much to harvest? It seems ergonomics will have to be investigated for those folks reaching into the 18" spaces to harvest. What will it be like to be down on one's knees harvesting the bottom row? What kind of ladder will be needed to harvest the top layer of the stack? One thing that is rarely fully understood is the GHG emissions issue. What will be the ecological PLUSES of doing this kind of farming over the CA acre? Marketing is another whole animal - how will this be brought to market? My concern is this: in order to make this economically feasible, who many containers are needed in a city, for example, in order for the farm to be profitable? Then, MOST IMPORTANTLY, will there be a supply chain and delivery mechanism to get this to the city outlets and the consumer? What size city is needed to take this crop? For example, a small city like Harrisburg, PA could probably NOT sustain this business model, while a larger city like Boston, MA might be on the cusp between going broke and just squeaking by. Then, a large city like Miami, FL might me the golden egg. Who has done this economic analysis? This comparison that you did was helpful, even though it didn't consider the weather related issues that can plague outdoor farming, which I think is the primary reason Vertical Farming has a place in the future, but I want to see the economics...if available.
It is an incredible insight into how the US has to do the most confusing maths. How anyone is able to do mental math in an Imperial system, or can easily follow any mathematical conversations is beyond me.
can you grow tomatoes onions and watermelons? And how would it work to grows them in a outdoor greenhouse and idk whichever term used hydro or aquaponic .... whichever system that will cost and help use less water and chemicals but grow organically...please do advice me or any of y'all experts...my village is depending on me getting started on this for improving their little farm
Great video, thanks for sharing. Do these metrics apply to hydroponics as well as aquaponics-based indoor/container farming? If not, is one noticeably more productive than the other? You mentioned that some farming methods exceeding these metrics and I am wondering which indoor/containing farming methods tend to experience this.
Hi Christopher. This can be a hot topic. Nate's talking about the fact that the hydroponic industry is rife with companies that knowingly skew their yields by comparing with traditional outdoor agriculture. The bottom line is that hydroponics certainly can be more productive per square foot, especially when farming on true vertical planes, but some would have you believe that it's far more productive than it is, so be wary of companies overestimating yields.
Brillant video. really gets down to the crooks of it. perfect for anyone toying with the idea to get some bench marks. My only question is what are the dimensions of a 400 foot container? All the containers i've owned have been 8 foot wide. I can only assume that yours is 10 foot x 40 foot?
I can get up to four cuts on a bed of lettuce but do rotate to another bed after that. I grow in an unheated high tunnel and can have production year-round though it is harvest in winter and not growing. Up front, costs are very considerably less. I am still very impressed with the method and feel combined with fish is the farming of the future
Thanks for nice videos. Can you please make videos on cost comparison of these two different methods of farming? I. E. Fertilizer, light, co2 machines... etc.
To be honest about the numbers, why would you use leaf lettuces in the field and head lettuces in container? Why would you not compare head lettuce field production to head lettuce container production, or leaf lettuce against leaf lettuce?
Good video nate. hate the figures that get chucked about. One thing you never touched on, whichever system you use, zip grow or stacked is one thing but 1acre of farmland is always going to be one acre. One container equals 1% of an acre but I can imediately double that without increasing the footprint as the containers themselves can be stacked and the sky's the limit there. We need to think up up and more up. using the lowest figures containers are 10 times more efficient, so I need 10 containers to equal 1 acre, let's say 9 if I can get slightly higher figures than the lowest figure you used. 3 containers side by side and 3 high. so per square foot each 3 stack is 30 times more efficient. The higher we go, the better the numbers get. I'm waiting for someone putting a farm in a disused alleyway that you can fit 2 side by side perhaps 2 lenthways but 4 containers high to really pump out the tonnage. If I only had the funds!
Great video. Which of the two options would you say are most labour intensive (towers vs stacked troughs), and would you choose hydroponics over aquaponics? Thank you.
Excellent information but what is the cost difference to produce a pound of product on farm vs indoor container as I assume the cost of machinery, chemical spreading, weed control, labor, water use, transportation, spoilage,and other things are different between the two types of farming that make a large impact on the final cost comparisons. A presentation showing these numbers would be most informative.
Hello. Thanks for the efford. Hope you dont mind to do a video on comparing the system maintenance cost of the container VS the machinery cost of the land. :)
So then just get 10 containers and stack them up on each other so you have 5 on the ground and 5 on top. Now you can produce as much on 1/10 of an acre as you would on 1 whole acre. Right?
What about the pest risk factored in? Field growing will require more pest management (pesticide use). Water usage and environmental challenges should also be considered.
I have some doubt practically simply because: 1) operating electricity cost is higher. 2) much difficult space to work. Which in term increase the man hour 3) huge CAPEX which takes years to recovered. Even if I hyperthetically agreed you can produce 5 tons per years @ highest $4/kg, that's 20K per year - electricity - labor cost - depreciation of 5k a year's.. I doubted one can really profit at all.
you've low-balled field growing. We use cold frame and poly tunnel during shoulder month of spring and fall. We also transplant 2-3wk old lettuce plugs so we can get more than 2 harvest per season in zone 7. Give you an idea, Elliot Coleman claims to get about 10-20x productivity of his field over conventional ag. But this would not be a fair comparison since he is at extreme end of field productivity and most all farmers will not get that kind of number. He used gross sales figure for the comparison. I'm also an early adopter of zipgrow. We own fair number of them and I can say that production of tower is about 10x over field for a given footprint. This discussion is long over due and its been a real sore point for me. Outrageous claims makes for loss of credibility and loss of sale. Thank you for this much needed discussion.
Hi Shawn, thanks for taking part in the convo! You're right, the numbers are not reflective of small scale market gardens/soil plots under greenhouse coverings at all. This video was specifically looking at the comparison being made by repurposed freight container claims which always like to compare indoor/container arms vs. the massive industrial ag operations which as you know are nowhere near as efficient as the farms being run in more innovative ways as you mention. We're grateful to have folks like you in the community and weighing in on these important conversations. We're just trying to ensure that modern farmers like yourself are not getting a bad rap or lose credibility from such misguided metrics! Thanks again for the comment and hope you're well.
Great information and video presentation. Amazing technology. Wonderful company. Thank you. Do you have any programs to help finance and help start-up a non profit?
We have almost 8 acres. But I only want to Farm 5 Acres. What would you grow here to make alot of money in Lewisburg, KY? And how? & I want it to be a U- Pick Farm. I want a Vertical Hydrphonic Farming
Might be more appropriate to artificial meat production. Lettuce, however grown are not noticiable for their calorie content; or maybe I misunderstand you?
Sacked can improve in space effeciency with automation and floating beds. A transplant stage to give more room at the halfway point and a machine that can lift multiple levels at once can reduce labor. From what I've seen, Zip Grow has a bit of an automation issue. Automated transplanting is well practiced. I bet we could implement weekly transplants to reduce space waste by a significant margin.
thanks for this video. you're right its not a this vs that but rather the costs ...and for me living in a country (one giant city actually) that ships 95% of its produce from overseas ....that faster time to market is a premium ... seems like we should be able to bring the farm INTO the city at only a slight penalty . thnks again for sharing the numbers
wow thanks .... so i assume we can get the yeild of an entire acre with about 5 containers based on the middle-of-the-road numbers on the right of the whiteboard. I figure the processing/harvesting/packing area OUTSIDE the containers dont need to be exponentially 5 times larger either
Here in hawaii we have a lot of pests and brain eating parasites (rat lungworm) Indoor growing is the only safe way I can see to grow high quality greens.
Yikes! It can definitely allow more control over pest/disease, but growing indoors doesn't give you complete immunity by any means. A strong IPM strategy is recommended for all commercial growers, regardless of technique. More on IPM: ruclips.net/video/xluhQSDLwUU/видео.html
Sorry I lost during you explain the indoor... But I wonder, if lettuce harvest 2 times a years, how can there be lettuce all years long? Refigerator farm?
Great info...can you also talk about the limits of what you can grow. Because my village needs tomatoes onions and watermelons not these baby greens beside the big lettuce
Can you PLEASE use the metric system like the rest of the world!? This would make so much easier, especially when you talk about numbers. And thank you for all this great content
Great information! Are Cubic Farms in Vancouver the companies you've been in contact with? I just ran the numbers on their machines, growing 100lbs/SF/Year based on a video they just put out. Do you think their claim that CubicFarm technology grows more indoors per SF than anyone is true?
Hi Adam Green, One acre is 43,560.2 square feet. 43,450.2 square feet times 100 pounds per square feet is 4,356,017 pounds 4,356,017 pounds is 2,178 short tons. Does this seem feasible to you? I don’t know the system, but as they say if it sounds too good to be true, then ....
Basic math - as You said 1 container is equal to 1/100 of an acre yeah ? So if you grow 24 tons per acre per year, and you grow 2 tons per container. thus. you need up to 12 containers to match that amount so you are >8 more time efficient than a traditional farmer. In other words, assuming that 1 container is 1/100 of an acre and produce 2 tonnes, so 100 containters would produce 200tons of lettuce. (without any modifications). With little bit of tweaking and upgrades you are as 10 times more efficient, If we use most advanced "container farms" and take into account that one can produce 6 tones per container it takes only 4 containers to match whole acre production.
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I've been farming salad for 10 years, before salanova existed, and salad farming was a secret shared farmer to farmer, before curtis stone..
I am moving into hydroponics farming while still field planting lettuce. I have multiple designs, my test plot basic low cost/time input greenhouses, no lights, increased planting density by 1/8, but it was more protected as it's kept closed and controlled, and grew faster with proper nutrients, but space wise it's 1/8. I have a vertical design with a 3ft width increases planting density 5/8. A frames have a higher energy and investment cost, depending on how you build them, but the benefits is you can heat the core of that A frame, and the doubling of production essentially doubles your greenhouse volume if growth were similar to in the ground. So as long as the hydroponics investment is under the cost of a greenhouse, and you set up all your systems for efficiency of planting, watering and harvest. Investing in hydroponics makes sense as it will save your back from bending over to harvest, can be heated easier, possibly push salad through it faster and more consistently.
The reality of planting salad is it takes me 1 hour to fertilize and direct seed 200ft of 30" bed space as the cost of $14 for fertilizer and $2 for seed. it takes anywhere from no weeding to 30 minutes depending on your weed bank, installation of drip, bug protection 30mins, and produces around $1200 at $10/lb salad mix. So hydroponics could do $1600 per round of the same space, and since it isnt dirt, there is less labor, less bugs disease, and you could keep planting it as apposed to moving around on a large patch of soil that requires labor to maintain. That is what sells me, labor as I work by myself and have had so many farms that I am tired of fertilizing plots that I am going to move on from eventually.
The other big selling points for me are doing hydroponics in a soil/spent mushroom substrate mix. I have a mushroom farm and making a 2/3 mushroom ratio would reduce soil input like crazy. Also being able to grow all year and have the yields to make it feasable to run LED lights.
Container farm production is a niche market. High quality yields, that are fresh local and sustainable, for restaurants, farmer's market, health clubs,ect. No pesticides, herbicides, no dirt and uses less water than conventional farming and can be grown year round. People want to eat healthier and this is a service that can be provided to that niche.
Yup, lots of awesome benefits if you've got the market and can make the business case for it. We're big fans of serving those local niche markets that are demanding fresh, local, sustainable food. It's generally a much better route for small farmers than going head to head with Big Ag. Thanks for tuning in.
Troy Glover guys , how about the energy costs to keep the container on full time working?
Nickolas Mendes It would end up energy vs fuel probably. Water is also not true all around. Where I'm from you don't really need to water crops unless you have the budget and specific need to for whatever reason. We get enough rain, so your water bill for a container will be all extra cost here instead of less water. Plus fuel prices and electrical prices are different everywhere. Two container farms set up the same way can cost different amounts.
What I don't understand, why can't traditional AG people meet the niche market? Are there no medium farms? Can't they spin off some small parcels of land from whatever the local operations are?
Best to be able to use natural light as much as possible
where i see containers shine in that they can be stacked you can not stack acerage
Profits from indoor/container growing are directly related to productivity for local markets and the ability to be on the doorstep of your customers for both availability and quality.
There isn't the need to mass produce your produce but to be able to be productive enough to satisfy local demand at an affordable price that also makes you a profit at the same time ... start small and build the system to its economic limits.
Thanks of the numbers but a basic point that is not being addressed in this video: when you farm lettuce in a field, you get two crops per year that usually takes between 12-16 weeks, but you then move onto growing other veggies since you cant grow lettuce all year long. So the profits from field farming can not be deduced simply from the yields produced from just lettuce and therefore you cant compare just the lettuce yields between these two systems, you have to compare the profits generated per sq ft between a diversified field and a container farm . At most these containers will produces x2 as much lettuce per square foot per turn compared to field farming, you simply get more lettuce per year since you get more harvest cycles per year- but note that you will also pay a higher cost to farm lettuce in a container when you consider the investment. The only real advantage of hydro farming is that you will have a lower labor cost which is a very big deal when it comes to costs savings. The downside of this type of monoculture farming is that you have to have a market for selling all that lettuce. If you have secured your market for all the lettuce and don't have to sell it at a wholesale price just to get rid of it, then yes you will make more growing lettuce in containers yearly due to lower labor costs and year around production- but that is a big IF.
That is true. To be fair, one of the fundamental benefits of indoor growing is the fact that you can get consistent supply for contracts that want consistency. This math doesn't always represent the full productivity of the land though.
rachel kulberg
Of course there was no mention of the extra cost of the lights and the power needed to run them.
LED lights are needed for stacked and their initial cost is high.
Most farmers fail, whenever they fail to Secure a place for their products on the market place Before they start! This leads many into the mind set of “that’s not how we’ve always done it” especially when a new crop is on trend. Some might start into it but they don’t lay down buyers ahead of time for the new product and they get burned.
@@richlaue This system will take care of that, it’s actually pretty ingenious, only one row of lamps for many layers and the plants are rotating ruclips.net/video/4PbaZE7Nfx0/видео.html
Started investigating container farms as a passive interest, and did a little back of the napkin math for a viable business model. Would be an interesting follow-up video from you guys to talk about OpEx costs in more depth and average revenue/lb for various crops. I just don't see how a 1 or 2 container farmer doesn't lose his shirt...
We in all sectors of the small scale farming industry need to be honest and realistic about the numbers. Whether it be Urban, traditional small farm, indoor growing, livestock, poultry etc. It gets old seeing people come in buried under a mountain of debt and armed with half the story and pie in the sky numbers and a year or three later wondering why they are going down in flames. With realistic and honest numbers a viable plan for start up and growth plan. As it is in every sector there is no shortage of confusion and so everyone is going to be the next super farmer making 1.5 million buck on 1/8th of a acre :( Great job detailing what is real in this sector!
Thanks for tuning in and for the great comment!
i love it. its the niche that can go anywhere there's people who eat food they haven't grown.
your videos make talking to landlords sooo much easier. thank you again for another nail on the head vid.
Given the climactic variables that we’re experiencing, the ability to simply and sustainably grow enough food to feed one’s family is GOLD.
It’s the difference between the Maunder Minimum and the Eddy Minimum.
It’s the difference between starvation and being well fed.
It’s the difference between life and death.
It’s the difference between then and now.
It’s called adaptability.
Leaving commercial ventures out of the equation, if every family tended and indoor ‘garden,’ so to speak, which almost any apartment or suburban house can accommodate, we can take starvation off the table.
We cannot control the sun, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, Pole Shifts (Magnetic or otherwise), tsunamis, and storms etc, but we *can* prepare for most of these scenarios, and we can certainly grow our own food.
The most immediate challenge, I believe, is getting everyone on board. This cannot be a concept or distant goal, it needs to become the baseline way of thinking. In other words, it needs to become the *norm* NOW!
Love and All Good Things,
Jesse.🌹
www.jesseleighbrackstone.com
No mention of the electricity cost of the lighting, heating, or ventilation per container per year?
Maintenance cost like artificial lighting, humidifier etc.
I'm considering investing in a non traditional farm, probably a container. I really appreciate the candid and honesty of your video. Thanks!!!
Timestamps/What's Covered:
01:25 Numbers behind outdoor production03:10 Outdoor production vs. vertical container production09:05 Outdoor production vs. stacked container production13:23 Truths about indoor farming
This is excellent, it's always very healthy to look at the claims some people in this sector are making and putting them to scrutiny. I myself have heard some ridiculous "10,000 more productive!" claims that immediately failed to make any mathematical sense.
I would also suggest to make another video that makes a cost comparison between traditional farms and vertical indoor operations.
Thank you so much for this video, I have found this data to be very useful with my project to create an urban farm in the heart of my City, I'm not yet sure whether I will go shipping container or shop-based grow system but your information is an awesome point of comparison . A point I would like to make would be the start up costs based on the true principle that urban farming is actually done in a city.
Here in the UK an acre of land in most cities (London not included) would cost on average £1M ($1.3M) whereas the rental space for a shipping container right in a city centre would be on average about £20K per year ($26K) ... plus in almost all cases the ground in the city would be unsuitable to grow in with ground pollution being the main issue to deal with (yes, I know techniques like straw-bale growing etc. can overcome this but it too would reduce land production space).
So for me an indoor container or shop-based grow system would still be economically viable for the production of food picked fresh for your customers right in the heart of any city or town, plus an attached grocer store and café would add extra value to the venture I hope. Thanks again for your valuable information.
How do you regulate temperature, humidity, water and ventilation?
Just wondering if anyone has a link to a good set up plan
Thanks
I am interested in setting up for mushrooms
good comparison... apples to apples as it were. next item would be a cost comparison for the dirt farm vs the container per year. One has diesel and pesticide ect ect while the other lights, fertilisers ect ect. would love to see you do a presentation that a common fool like me can grasp. keep up the great work!
We'll add that to the list! That type of a comparison will vary largely by scale, do you have a certain scale in mind?
yes! compare by the Production of one-acre of land and tower container size that produces what that one acre of land produces. non- farmer investors/city counsels/community groups could readily follow those concepts and numbers. aircongypsy great question.
I have similar thoughts. Yield per SqFt is a nice but perhaps an unbalanced comparison. The more important comparison is the economic return (Profit) per SqFt AND the ROI. How much Capital and Operating Cost Investment is required to produce continuously off 1 Acre vs the same Under-Protection at the same Output. My guess is that the Economic Comparisons may differ across Crop Types
Keep in mind indoor organics always cost more at least 50% more
How about the nutritional qualities of those lettuce? (Thanks for the right information shared here)
I am curious. Like I get your calculations. But you said 1 contain is 1% of a acre. So what are the numbers if we use 1 acre filled with containers. At that moment the numbers are crazy ? And containers can also be stacked 2 or 3 high on the same place. That way on the same acre. How much increase of productivity do you have ?
I have a question... You were saying that turnaround time in the container is 10.4 per year or a 5 week growing season... and then you were talking about lettuce that were 2 oz, 4 oz, and 6 oz. Does 6 oz's of lettuce take 5 weeks just like 2 oz's or does it take longer to get bigger? Thanks Am I confusing heads of lettuce vs leaves picked from different plants and thrown together? Thanks!
Do.you do
Consultations
Please let me know
Great pres.
Yes Michael we do, I can have a sales rep contact you. Please email us at hello@zipgrow.com
@@ZipGrowInc when.I have.land in Atlantic city
And one container
I want to build my own
Farm...
GREAT video! Love the math, and the clear comparisons! Your focus on productivity (and later profitability, I imagine) is appropriate for growers interested in the business, but for at-home Container Farmers, productivity and the financials is an incomplete picture. How do the indicators change when what your eventual end-goal is NUTRITION? So how does the game change (and even the container design) when you start evaluating based on higher nutrition crops?
This is an older video before purpose built containers were really coming onto the market. We will have new container videos coming later in the year that will address some of these questions. Container framing has come a long way in the past 5 years. One that are purpose built with the correct HVAC and layout can be highly productive and produce nutritious food equal to any other controlled environment for fresh produce production.
Listen to this guy, he is sincere, and knows the deal!
Good breakdown, but I would compare a high-end system to a high-end system. A glass Venlo-greenhouse with a MGS system (or a alternative hydrophobic system) vs a container based system. That comparison is closer.
I think you might have overestimated the yield from a 5 acre field. At the 6:40 time you said it would produce 125,000 tons. That seems to be about a 1000 fold too high.
Wayne! Good catch that was supposed to be 125 tons... A few too many zeros to keep track of. Thanks for pointing that out!
does the same numbers apply to the "cubic farm system"?
you have just cemented my passion to grow and sell locally micro greens
Did you start yet?
@ 6:05 you mention about axing half of the shipping container wouldn't you cut the zg from 256 to 128? and the yield would go from 10x to 5x?
Absolutely fantastic video! Thank you for cutting through all the misconceptions and still remaining positive.
This info is great and we beleive very accurate, however it should be noted that Container growing was developed as a measure to save shipping costs of final harvested product,, they are generally established in areas in Northern Canada where day light is limited and outdoor is not very cost effective, May I suggest a video showing cost of shipping to say a remote area of Onatrio Canada like Timmins, where lettuce products are shipped from across the Country. factor in shipping then you quickly learn that Container growing is far more superior that field farming, one must factor in loss of product as we believe over 30 % of produce goes to waste
Is the weight done by dry weight or fresh
Hi Luis, This is a great question and an excellent point! Dry weight is a much more accurate comparison for scientific purposes however because most farmers do not have the time or capacity to weigh this way we log our data as fresh weight for most edible crops so that comparisons can more easily be made. When working with some herbs and herbal medicines it is preferred to log dry weight as it is much more indicative of a successful yield.
Please address the cost impact of added labor and materials
SafariBroadcasting simple. 1 persons easley maintains a space of 320 sq ft vs buddy in the field 43,300 sq ft (more time walking around and further to carry)
The total cost of production ( energy, water, maintenance, ... ) for the yield must be included in the calculation for realistic comparisons.
Comparisons of the cost of keeping a vertical farm in areas:
1) where the winter temperatures drop below zero degree Celcius ( heating & lighting cost required ) vs where tropical & equatorial climates exist, sunlight & heat are free throughout the year.
2) water supply in wintry & arid lands (higher cost) vs tropical lands with adequate water supply
3) extra exterior maintenance & insulation to keep the hydroponic farm portion of the building from being frozen & heat loss vs such farms in tropical areas
What about power for LEDs and heat/cool continer?
Are there scientific comparisons done on the nutrient composition of hydroponic vs field grown veggies ?
If it is available, please provide a link
That comparision would be pretty much impossible to do properly. There are too many factors on both ends. But it all comes down to soil and solution. You can adjust it in both soil and hydro to your standards.
There is another comment here on lack of microbes in hydro. Well if you go around checking amount of microbes and nutrients in soil around even the same state you will be surprised how vastly different it is. Same goes for hydro, but guess what no matter where you go there will be plenty, including various fungi that appears in hydro naturally.
So bottom line it doesnt matter if its soil or hydro it all depends on grower. You want and should do proper measurements in both soil and hydro and supply with missing components. All of them including microbes are available, again for both hydro and soil. But of course having hydro setup makes it just slightly easier to control.
Good quality video explaining the complexity of comparison in a very understandable way. So well done Bright Agrotech and thanks.
Thanks for tuning in Graham. Hope you subscribe for more videos like this coming up in the next few weeks.
Anybody seen "Back to the Future 2" when Martys son in the future asks the house for fruit and a tiny fruit farm descends from the ceiling. The impression I got from that is that there is a tiny automatic farm in the house which is constantly growing them fresh fruit to eat. Since they lived in a very bad neighborhood this is as common as a microwave is now in that future, just as cheap, just as easy to maintain. I like to think we could do something like that with the same technology used in the container farms. So that everyone could just buy a farm for a few hundred dollars, set it up in their home, plug it in and hook it up to water, same as a fridge or a dishwasher. Then every few months you just add a small box of fertilizer or whatever. Bam fresh greens growing in your house non stop with very little human effort to maintain.
As for your comparison its very good. Another comparison that needs done is between cost to consumer. Lettuce grown in California a shipped to Florida has to have a shipping cost associated with it that lettuces grown in Florida in a shipping container wouldn't suffer nearly as high. Also if a restaurant buys a container farm to grow the greens they need they cut out all shipping cost and all middle men who jack the price up a little more. So the question is what is the comparison in the cost lettuce per ton if you buy it from California farmer vs growing it yourself in a container.
Currently at a stage where if you want to compare pure cost per head of lettuce, kilo of produce or however you'd like to word it... The California farmer is making a mockery of the VF numbers. But, it is everything that you have noted which make container farming/urbanised vertical farming viable. BECAUSE of the 'direct to customer' model with transport, storage, marketing groups taken away, the higher production cost in a VF can still keep competitive prices.
I would make a vague assumption (not being a lettuce man, but a commercial soft fruit producer) that the Californian farmer is growing at a tenth of the cost it does for a vertical farming set up.
Although those kind of comparisons vary hugely because there are so many different sources for all the different crops. But I see where you're coming from.
Is there a compared averaged cost between them based on the same examples you had?
Energy consumption?
does it scale? if i have land and put FIVE containers on it, will i get 5 times your number?
what forms of farming do the higher yielding farms do that you mentioned?
Just what I REALLY needed to hear. TY!
Our pleasure. Glad you enjoyed it!
We should compare exact operating cost as well for one sqf.
How do you handle the heat produced by external sources and internal lighting? I try to keep my temp. between 54 and 68 deg. F.
The heat question is a really important one for indoor growers to answer as heat can lead to humidity, pests, disease, etc. It will largely depend on how much space you have to install systems that help mitigate the heat- something typically difficult to do when growing in confined spaces like up-cycled shipping containers without adequate insulation. That said, many of our farmers use CoolBar water-cooled lights that help to pull heat away from the growing environment through a chiller and not having to rely as heavily on HVAC units. You can learn more here: ruclips.net/video/Y_voiiYbZV8/видео.html
Your 8 width container would only give you 2 feet to work in and that's if you don't have any insulation within that 8 foot container. I am interested in the footprint of the nutrition production is that something that's known and could be included in the sustainability equation?
Yes ergonomics are terrible less than 8ft wide with added insulation.
Usually, roman lettuce is sold at about 70~75g/head without root, or 3oz roughly.
How much of a drop off in pound/foot would there be if did the hydro outdoor over land rather than in the soil? Would think the consistency of nutrients and using less water would be attractive. Would it not be possible to Hydro outdoors on the very same acre and perhaps get a better pound/foot?
These videos are awesome. What's the production difference between greenhouse and indoor?
Too many variables to tackle in one answer, Timothy!
What happens to the healthy microbes our stomach needs that we get from the soil through the plants. Will aeroponics upset this natural balance?
healthy bacteria would still exist in the soil and plant. also, the healthy bacteria in your digestive tract, like Escherichia coli, may come from the food you eat, but If you were to have an excess of E.coli from ingestion, it could lead to serious problems in your gut.
@@rokinco8598 e-coli is not the only bacteria found in dirt, it has been documented that the healthiest children in the west live on farms and are exposed to all the dirt.
@@richlaue i know that. Just using it as an example
That's a REALLY good question.
Not all soil has a lot of microbes and lots of hydro setups have plenty. Also you can supplement hydro with microbes.
I really need the same comparison done between freight/containers and greenhouses. Can someone please help?
We're just getting started in Vertical Farming in Vietnam. Troy Glover is correct, Container Farm is a niche market. From our point of view, we don't seek to replace field production, we market to specific niche markets. BTW Nate your company name? Agro Tech - the tech of aggro, like UFC? We're using Agritech ;-)
Thank you for the video. Sounds like someone started doing math like you can pile containers so high, minus some walking space, times production per container... and people who skip reading the full article understood that as "one container can produce X times as much as an acre" instead of comparing an acre of vertical farms to an acre of farmland.
What's the cost difference between the two? Wonder what the profit margins are.
What sized container 20 or 40 foot.
I'd like to see a financial presentation on this topic. For example, how much does that acre of CA land cost, what are the taxes, what does the water cost, plant nutrition, harvesting equipment, etc...? We saw that container ranges from 1/10th of an acre to 1/4th of an acre. Perhaps take the middle ground at 4 oz. heads and provide the same information. I believe it would take about six containers to grow the equivalent of the acre. How much for six containers? Much less water means much less cost for water. How much is the cost for water? How much to harvest? It seems ergonomics will have to be investigated for those folks reaching into the 18" spaces to harvest. What will it be like to be down on one's knees harvesting the bottom row? What kind of ladder will be needed to harvest the top layer of the stack? One thing that is rarely fully understood is the GHG emissions issue. What will be the ecological PLUSES of doing this kind of farming over the CA acre? Marketing is another whole animal - how will this be brought to market? My concern is this: in order to make this economically feasible, who many containers are needed in a city, for example, in order for the farm to be profitable? Then, MOST IMPORTANTLY, will there be a supply chain and delivery mechanism to get this to the city outlets and the consumer? What size city is needed to take this crop? For example, a small city like Harrisburg, PA could probably NOT sustain this business model, while a larger city like Boston, MA might be on the cusp between going broke and just squeaking by. Then, a large city like Miami, FL might me the golden egg. Who has done this economic analysis? This comparison that you did was helpful, even though it didn't consider the weather related issues that can plague outdoor farming, which I think is the primary reason Vertical Farming has a place in the future, but I want to see the economics...if available.
How much one container does it cost fully equipped?
What size container?
It is an incredible insight into how the US has to do the most confusing maths.
How anyone is able to do mental math in an Imperial system, or can easily follow any mathematical conversations is beyond me.
can you grow tomatoes onions and watermelons? And how would it work to grows them in a outdoor greenhouse and idk whichever term used hydro or aquaponic .... whichever system that will cost and help use less water and chemicals but grow organically...please do advice me or any of y'all experts...my village is depending on me getting started on this for improving their little farm
Excellent presentation. I am considering opening up a vertical farm and could use all the help in planning that I can get.
Great video, thanks for sharing. Do these metrics apply to hydroponics as well as aquaponics-based indoor/container farming? If not, is one noticeably more productive than the other? You mentioned that some farming methods exceeding these metrics and I am wondering which indoor/containing farming methods tend to experience this.
Hi Christopher. This can be a hot topic. Nate's talking about the fact that the hydroponic industry is rife with companies that knowingly skew their yields by comparing with traditional outdoor agriculture. The bottom line is that hydroponics certainly can be more productive per square foot, especially when farming on true vertical planes, but some would have you believe that it's far more productive than it is, so be wary of companies overestimating yields.
I’m interested on container farming for blueberries/raspberries; what would be a good thumb rule to compare acre production vs container?
This is an awesome start with the real #'s! Thanks for this!
Any ideas on where I can look at costs? Startup and recurring?
Thanks for this!
Brillant video. really gets down to the crooks of it. perfect for anyone toying with the idea to get some bench marks. My only question is what are the dimensions of a 400 foot container? All the containers i've owned have been 8 foot wide. I can only assume that yours is 10 foot x 40 foot?
Excellent speaker. Just a pleasure to listen to. And awesome math job done.
Excellent Thanks for sharing the leg pull. Glad I found you
Glad to help Richard, thanks for coming!
I can get up to four cuts on a bed of lettuce but do rotate to another bed after that. I grow in an unheated high tunnel and can have production year-round though it is harvest in winter and not growing. Up front, costs are very considerably less. I am still very impressed with the method and feel combined with fish is the farming of the future
Citation on field numbers for the lettuce production?
Thanks for nice videos.
Can you please make videos on cost comparison of these two different methods of farming? I. E. Fertilizer, light, co2 machines... etc.
Would you say it's cheaper to build your own indoor farm or buying a container farm?
Love the video. Great job. At some point won't we have to start using volume instead of area in the future? To get a true comparison.
I like the new style of videos. Sound set up is perfect too.
We've been working on it! Thanks for the feedback - we'll let Ruebin and the awesome Media Team know.
To be honest about the numbers, why would you use leaf lettuces in the field and head lettuces in container? Why would you not compare head lettuce field production to head lettuce container production, or leaf lettuce against leaf lettuce?
Good video nate. hate the figures that get chucked about. One thing you never touched on, whichever system you use, zip grow or stacked is one thing but 1acre of farmland is always going to be one acre. One container equals 1% of an acre but I can imediately double that without increasing the footprint as the containers themselves can be stacked and the sky's the limit there. We need to think up up and more up. using the lowest figures containers are 10 times more efficient, so I need 10 containers to equal 1 acre, let's say 9 if I can get slightly higher figures than the lowest figure you used. 3 containers side by side and 3 high. so per square foot each 3 stack is 30 times more efficient. The higher we go, the better the numbers get. I'm waiting for someone putting a farm in a disused alleyway that you can fit 2 side by side perhaps 2 lenthways but 4 containers high to really pump out the tonnage. If I only had the funds!
Great video. Which of the two options would you say are most labour intensive (towers vs stacked troughs), and would you choose hydroponics over aquaponics?
Thank you.
Excellent information but what is the cost difference to produce a pound of product on farm vs indoor container as I assume the cost of machinery, chemical spreading, weed control, labor, water use, transportation, spoilage,and other things are different between the two types of farming that make a large impact on the final cost comparisons. A presentation showing these numbers would be most informative.
So you're 400sf is a 53' box?
Hello. Thanks for the efford. Hope you dont mind to do a video on comparing the system maintenance cost of the container VS the machinery cost of the land. :)
Can you do that in metric system, I do not understand these pirates units.
So then just get 10 containers and stack them up on each other so you have 5 on the ground and 5 on top. Now you can produce as much on 1/10 of an acre as you would on 1 whole acre. Right?
Thanks so much for this, Nate, necessary info for everyone.
Happy to help here, Andrew. Thanks for tuning in!
I've now watched a few of your videos and I think that was one of the best. Thank you.
Thanks for watching! Be sure to subscribe for more videos publishing each week.
What about the pest risk factored in? Field growing will require more pest management (pesticide use).
Water usage and environmental challenges should also be considered.
I have some doubt practically simply because:
1) operating electricity cost is higher.
2) much difficult space to work. Which in term increase the man hour
3) huge CAPEX which takes years to recovered. Even if I hyperthetically agreed you can produce 5 tons per years @ highest $4/kg, that's 20K per year - electricity - labor cost - depreciation of 5k a year's.. I doubted one can really profit at all.
you've low-balled field growing. We use cold frame and poly tunnel during shoulder month of spring and fall. We also transplant 2-3wk old lettuce plugs so we can get more than 2 harvest per season in zone 7.
Give you an idea, Elliot Coleman claims to get about 10-20x productivity of his field over conventional ag. But this would not be a fair comparison since he is at extreme end of field productivity and most all farmers will not get that kind of number. He used gross sales figure for the comparison.
I'm also an early adopter of zipgrow. We own fair number of them and I can say that production of tower is about 10x over field for a given footprint.
This discussion is long over due and its been a real sore point for me. Outrageous claims makes for loss of credibility and loss of sale.
Thank you for this much needed discussion.
Hi Shawn, thanks for taking part in the convo! You're right, the numbers are not reflective of small scale market gardens/soil plots under greenhouse coverings at all. This video was specifically looking at the comparison being made by repurposed freight container claims which always like to compare indoor/container arms vs. the massive industrial ag operations which as you know are nowhere near as efficient as the farms being run in more innovative ways as you mention.
We're grateful to have folks like you in the community and weighing in on these important conversations. We're just trying to ensure that modern farmers like yourself are not getting a bad rap or lose credibility from such misguided metrics!
Thanks again for the comment and hope you're well.
Shawn Ueda ty for your additional points. Is that zone 7a or 7b you spoke of?
Pretty good information here.
How does hydroponics work for barley fodder in Dairy industry?
May I have your e-mail address?
Great information and video presentation. Amazing technology. Wonderful company. Thank you. Do you have any programs to help finance and help start-up a non profit?
We have almost 8 acres. But I only want to Farm 5 Acres. What would you grow here to make alot of money in Lewisburg, KY? And how? & I want it to be a U- Pick Farm. I want a
Vertical Hydrphonic Farming
I want to see calculations on calorie production, especially in relation to $ spent/inputs
Might be more appropriate to artificial meat production. Lettuce, however grown are not noticiable for their calorie content; or maybe I misunderstand you?
If you fill an acre with 40 feet containers you can produce 294 tons of lettuce per year. Did the math.
Don't forget you can stack your containers.
Sacked can improve in space effeciency with automation and floating beds. A transplant stage to give more room at the halfway point and a machine that can lift multiple levels at once can reduce labor. From what I've seen, Zip Grow has a bit of an automation issue. Automated transplanting is well practiced. I bet we could implement weekly transplants to reduce space waste by a significant margin.
thanks for this video. you're right its not a this vs that but rather the costs ...and for me living in a country (one giant city actually) that ships 95% of its produce from overseas ....that faster time to market is a premium ... seems like we should be able to bring the farm INTO the city at only a slight penalty . thnks again for sharing the numbers
wow thanks .... so i assume we can get the yeild of an entire acre with about 5 containers based on the middle-of-the-road numbers on the right of the whiteboard. I figure the processing/harvesting/packing area OUTSIDE the containers dont need to be exponentially 5 times larger either
Thank you for this. Still incredibly relevant. You were ahead.
Hi Jessie, thank you. Glad that it was helpful!
Here in hawaii we have a lot of pests and brain eating parasites (rat lungworm)
Indoor growing is the only safe way I can see to grow high quality greens.
Yikes! It can definitely allow more control over pest/disease, but growing indoors doesn't give you complete immunity by any means. A strong IPM strategy is recommended for all commercial growers, regardless of technique. More on IPM: ruclips.net/video/xluhQSDLwUU/видео.html
Sorry I lost during you explain the indoor... But I wonder, if lettuce harvest 2 times a years,
how can there be lettuce all years long? Refigerator farm?
Great info...can you also talk about the limits of what you can grow. Because my village needs tomatoes onions and watermelons not these baby greens beside the big lettuce
Can you PLEASE use the metric system like the rest of the world!? This would make so much easier, especially when you talk about numbers.
And thank you for all this great content
Great information! Are Cubic Farms in Vancouver the companies you've been in contact with? I just ran the numbers on their machines, growing 100lbs/SF/Year based on a video they just put out. Do you think their claim that CubicFarm technology grows more indoors per SF than anyone is true?
Hi Adam, we really don't know enough about their system to say either way. You might try asking one of their farmers?
Hi Adam Green,
One acre is 43,560.2 square feet.
43,450.2 square feet times 100 pounds per square feet is 4,356,017 pounds
4,356,017 pounds is 2,178 short tons.
Does this seem feasible to you?
I don’t know the system, but as they say if it sounds too good to be true, then ....
Well done for you in-depth research. Can you also make a comparison between Greenhouse vs Conventional farming
Basic math - as You said 1 container is equal to 1/100 of an acre yeah ? So if you grow 24 tons per acre per year, and you grow 2 tons per container. thus. you need up to 12 containers to match that amount so you are >8 more time efficient than a traditional farmer. In other words, assuming that 1 container is 1/100 of an acre and produce 2 tonnes, so 100 containters would produce 200tons of lettuce. (without any modifications). With little bit of tweaking and upgrades you are as 10 times more efficient, If we use most advanced "container farms" and take into account that one can produce 6 tones per container it takes only 4 containers to match whole acre production.