We've always had severe winters, predation is the #1 reason for the population decline. The deer herd was just fine with bear, coyote, and bobcat on the landscape it wasnt til the wolf population took hold that the deer population started to tank hard.
I have a recent trail camera photo showing 6 wolves milling around just after the 2023 firearm deer season at our deer camp. From past trail cam photos I knew there were a few solitary wolves around, but not a pack. It's no wonder we see so few deer and no fawns.
His numbers don't add up. The DNR themselves via an official document in 2021 stated bears eat 1.4 fawns per bear per year. 10,000 bears in the Yoop then thats 14,000 fawns. Bears don't prey on adult does. The DNR also stated for many years in their hunting digest that wolves kill 30 to 35 deer per wolf per year. Keep in mind these are the adult deer that produce the fawns. They stated the minimum wolf count is 631 currently so using 30 deer a year thats another 18,930. Lets assume coyotes take another 14,000 fawns a year. Richard himself said bears and coyotes take about the same number. The DNR said Bobcats take 6.6 fawns each per year but the over all population of bobcats is very small compared to other predators. A general estimate is 1000 to 1500 adult cats in the U.P so thats another 9900 fawns using the higher of the two numbers. Hunters in the U.P. took 17,000 deer in 2023. There were 3000 car deer accident reported last year in U.P. So total kill in 2023 is aprox 76830. With population numbers the way they are it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know the U.P. deer can't sustain this sort of removal every year. It takes 18,500 does to produce 37000 fawns just to feed the bears, coyotes and cats (DNR numbers) if they have twins and aren't stress from running from wolves all winter. In 2014 the estimated U.P. deer population by the DNR was thought to be at 136,000 deer total. In 2020 the DNR said the population was probably around 200,000. The really have no clue and have stated as such. Richard Smith has always been waving the flag for shooting whatever size buck a hunter wants to take. From spikes up. Now he wants hunters to be able to shoot more does because he states the land can't carry them through winter. Well it seems to me the wolves are already doing the job on the wintering deer population. More antlerless hunting is not whats needed. Currently we can't keep a stable population and its been on the downward swing for years, why in the world would you want to shoot even more does. One big thing he fails to mention is the amount of stress and the secondary kill effect the wolves cause the deer when bunched up in the wintering yards. Wolves are running those deer 24/7/365 on 17% of the land and deer are using up their fat reserves when needed most just trying to avoid the wolf. Bears aren't causing this in the winter. Its no wonder does are having more still born or unhealthy fawns that are less likely to survive after birth or grow quick enough to evade predators after birth. Is there even a way to measure this damage to the deer herd? This was never an issue until the wolves came back. Whats needed most is bring the wolf population down to around 200 as the government stated was their original goal to meet recovery and keep it there. Do this so we can maintain the adult population of does that can reproduce the fawns in numbers so that when the bears, coyotes and cats take fawns there still enough left over to make a positive gain. Shoot coyotes every chance you have. Lastly, stop the doe permits. The U.P. can easily carry more deer on the landscape, its a matter if the DNR allows it and the hunters stop believing we need to shoot does just because the DNR gives out doe tags. We know the truth in the DNR's numbers over the years and we know what we see out in the woods. The two story lines don't match up. So who's numbers do we believe? All I know is theres a lot less deer now ever since the wolf numbers have gained traction to whatever their real populations numbers are. Lastly, I knew it was a matter of time before someone said it was the weather. Every year that the harvest continually falls its always the weather, the hunter that gave up, the rain, opener during the week, no snow, too much snow, too many acorns, no bait, baiting itself, full moon, no moon....the excusses they've used for the last almost 25 years now is getting old. The fact is the deer population has fallen bad. There's too many furry things eating them in the woods with the wolves being the primary factor.
Please provide a link to the DNR official document from 2021 that says bears only eat 1.4 fawns per year. They had a video camera in the collar of one bear during the predator/prey study confirming it killed 3 fawns!
www.michigan.gov/-/media/Project/Websites/dnr/Documents/WLD/Mgt/limiting_factors_deer_up.pdf?rev=21440ee4ea4a4349a3f564085bd8c783 Predator prey study. States bear are responsible for 1.4 fawn mortalities per bear yearly. Some bears kill more, some less to none. All depends on what zone the bears are in, their populations in that zone and the corresponding deer population in that zone as well. 1.4 is an average number. Coyotes are higher at 1.5 per coyote, Bobcat at 6.6 and Wolves at 5.6 fawns each. To know how many fawns are being killed in total one needs to know how many of each predator is on the landscape. Wolves kill coyotes any chance they get and general observation is coyote numbers are on the downward swing in the U.P., though still numerous. Where wolves do most damage on the deer herd is in the winter months when deer are congragated in the yards, this is where mature deer suffer most from wolves both directly and indirectly These are the mature deer with the higher percentage being does vs bucks. Take out around 18,000 to 20,000 adult deer every year by wolves, you won't have enough fawns drop in the spring to have recuitment. If wolves weren't chasing deer around 24/7/365 in the deer yards they'd be less stressed and more would survive during times of hard winters. This is a major point the study doesn't discuss. How many deer are overly stressed not making through the winter because of the wolves pressure during the winter. How much of their fat reserves do deer lose because wolves continually chase them. How many become stress due to this factor and end up aborting the fawns or have one fawn vs two which twins are more typical with whitetails. Referencing two young bears that got inside a enclosed high fenced deer pen in 1982 is not the same as free ranging migrating U.P. deer. Those deer in a closed enviroment are more conditioned and tolerable to intrusion whether human or predators. With the sheer amount of deer that were in the Pen they had to of been given supplemental feed thus conditioning them even more and concentrating them in a more generalized area of that 1 sq mile (640 acre) enclosure. This study can also be found on line and discusses the two bears that got in. If you put a large mouth bass in a swiming pool filled with minows guess whats going to get eaten. Richard Smith stating bears consume 30,000-50,000 fawns is his opinion and everyone is intitled to one. His statement doesn't match the study. Is the study wrong? We'll, I too dispute some of the facts they have stated in this study as well and believe it's carefully written to soften the publics perception of wolves, trying to up the toluration of the wolves to the general public. Call it social engineering, its easier to do that than to follow 1996's Proposal G "to use pricipals of sound scientific management" vs make decisions that are unpopular with a large demographic that love wolves because of a picture they see on tv or a movie/documentary with a one sided view. Most of these people have no direct interaction or feel any impact from wolves or even live in the U.P. for that matter. Most of them that favor non management of wolve are not sportsman (Hunters) and don't set foot in the woods and don't see first hand the real world effects on game populations wolves have. Politician's do not want to upset that voter base which is larger than the hunting community. After all the Mi DNR director is appointed by the Governor, NRC members are appointed and they simply follow their orders. If the State, the DNR and the NRC wanted something done, it would get done. Heck, we've got Cannabis distributers on almost every street corner now days and thats still Federally against the law yet the state allowed it. Remove politics and the issues will get resolved but this is a whole different discussion.@@lucylafaive7561
Michigan has more deer hunting season day's than all the neighboring states combined, and as far as I know Michigan has more deer hunting days than the whole mid western states combined, the DNR is worried more about revenue than wildlife management, the bear hunting crew I talked to in baraga county said the wolves ran the bear completely out of the area, the party was from Ohio and apply every year for a bear tag the four of them, and draw a bear tag on average every 10 years, bottom line is the status quo, will end deer hunting in the upper peninsula, like it did in the lower Michigan over 100 years ago
I think deer hunting in the UP is soon to be gone forever. The main problem is that the dynamics of the wolf vs deer populations is out of the hands of the UP voters that want to sustain their hunting heritage. The long history of hunting in the UP is now in the hands of more heavily populated lower Michigan, where the majority wants the deer population regulated to assure that the wolves have enough food, rather than that UP deer hunters have a successful experience. This larger voting group would rather see hunting eliminated entirely, and the wolf population increased substantially. Wait until UP hunters see deer hunting restricted if not curtailed entirely so that wolves have enough to eat. That’s when the real dynamics of this will hit home. Wisconsin has a similar problem because of the lower voter population in the northern half of the State vs the southern, but not to the extent of the huge population disparity between the UP and lower Michigan. The only way to remedy this is that the UP needs to a separate State, where your policies are not dictated by the anti hunting majority below the bridge.
You forgot to mention the wolves 🐺 a adult wolf can take up 30 deer 🦌 to survive . They need to get out of the office and go talk to farmers or loggers and interview hunters . My opinion it’s just like Northern Wisconsin to many wolves .
I did interview others that talked about wolf predation being one of the biggest factors. Check out my other podcasts! :) Thanks for watching! Believe me, if I could dedicate more time to the topic I would.
@@discovertheup I didn’t mean to come down on you it’s a big problem here in Northern Wisconsin and I would like to let people know . Our take them for a ride in the woods and walk around .
@@davidevans474No worries! I hardly ever comment back but wanted to make sure you saw the other interviews! I live in the sticks up here and see wolves or tracks frequently.
I've followed Richard P Smith for at least 20 years and always respected his opinion but he's using data from at least 10 year's ago .if he was to look at the last few years he would see that they canceled dogsled racing because there's no snow so they really need to stop that excuse! It's wolves
RPS- You spoke too soon about the year-round coyote season. The NRC just voted 4-2 in favor of closing the coyote season from 4-15 until 7-15. The NRC as well as the DNR are in the insurance companies back pocket. I'm not so sure you aren't in the same boat. Worried about bears but didn't mention the real problem, WOLVES.
Yea, I filmed this interview before the NRC even had it on the agenda. In my audio podcast version (find it on spotify, apple podcasts, amazon, etc) I do update the public on the coyote season 3 month closure.
In my opinion, Richard Smith has no credibility or common sense when it comes to deer management. His arguments are not only flawed, but he contradicts himself constantly. He says we have to few deer, but then he says we have to many deer. His solutions for two few deer include allowing hunters to kill more bucks and does even in low deer areas. He also wants more bear shot to save more deer when he says that we have to many deer for winter carryover already. Of course his hatred of anything to do with antler point restrictions gets mentioned repeatedly. Oddly though, he's somehow OK with having one restricted buck tag, but just not two. He's a self proclaimed expert at deer management, but the reality is he a menace to deer management in the U.P.
its called over hunting of deer time to get rid of the youth hunt and go back to the old tag system one tag for bow one tag for gun and no more doe hunting why do you think they got rid of doe hunting back in the 60s and not brought back to the mid 80s.
We've always had severe winters, predation is the #1 reason for the population decline. The deer herd was just fine with bear, coyote, and bobcat on the landscape it wasnt til the wolf population took hold that the deer population started to tank hard.
I have a recent trail camera photo showing 6 wolves milling around just after the 2023 firearm deer season at our deer camp. From past trail cam photos I knew there were a few solitary wolves around, but not a pack. It's no wonder we see so few deer and no fawns.
Zero severe winter 💯...all wolves
Facts
I'm in Texas and we don't have a show dedicated to the outdoors so I've adopted you people. 😃
Thanks for adopting us! More than happy to have you here!
Great job Richard. My camp is mid upper. My bear population is crazy they outnumber the deer easily 2/1 on my cameras throughout the summer.
His numbers don't add up. The DNR themselves via an official document in 2021 stated bears eat 1.4 fawns per bear per year. 10,000 bears in the Yoop then thats 14,000 fawns. Bears don't prey on adult does. The DNR also stated for many years in their hunting digest that wolves kill 30 to 35 deer per wolf per year. Keep in mind these are the adult deer that produce the fawns. They stated the minimum wolf count is 631 currently so using 30 deer a year thats another 18,930. Lets assume coyotes take another 14,000 fawns a year. Richard himself said bears and coyotes take about the same number. The DNR said Bobcats take 6.6 fawns each per year but the over all population of bobcats is very small compared to other predators. A general estimate is 1000 to 1500 adult cats in the U.P so thats another 9900 fawns using the higher of the two numbers. Hunters in the U.P. took 17,000 deer in 2023. There were 3000 car deer accident reported last year in U.P.
So total kill in 2023 is aprox 76830. With population numbers the way they are it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know the U.P. deer can't sustain this sort of removal every year. It takes 18,500 does to produce 37000 fawns just to feed the bears, coyotes and cats (DNR numbers) if they have twins and aren't stress from running from wolves all winter.
In 2014 the estimated U.P. deer population by the DNR was thought to be at 136,000 deer total. In 2020 the DNR said the population was probably around 200,000. The really have no clue and have stated as such.
Richard Smith has always been waving the flag for shooting whatever size buck a hunter wants to take. From spikes up. Now he wants hunters to be able to shoot more does because he states the land can't carry them through winter. Well it seems to me the wolves are already doing the job on the wintering deer population. More antlerless hunting is not whats needed.
Currently we can't keep a stable population and its been on the downward swing for years, why in the world would you want to shoot even more does.
One big thing he fails to mention is the amount of stress and the secondary kill effect the wolves cause the deer when bunched up in the wintering yards. Wolves are running those deer 24/7/365 on 17% of the land and deer are using up their fat reserves when needed most just trying to avoid the wolf. Bears aren't causing this in the winter. Its no wonder does are having more still born or unhealthy fawns that are less likely to survive after birth or grow quick enough to evade predators after birth. Is there even a way to measure this damage to the deer herd? This was never an issue until the wolves came back.
Whats needed most is bring the wolf population down to around 200 as the government stated was their original goal to meet recovery and keep it there. Do this so we can maintain the adult population of does that can reproduce the fawns in numbers so that when the bears, coyotes and cats take fawns there still enough left over to make a positive gain. Shoot coyotes every chance you have. Lastly, stop the doe permits. The U.P. can easily carry more deer on the landscape, its a matter if the DNR allows it and the hunters stop believing we need to shoot does just because the DNR gives out doe tags. We know the truth in the DNR's numbers over the years and we know what we see out in the woods. The two story lines don't match up. So who's numbers do we believe? All I know is theres a lot less deer now ever since the wolf numbers have gained traction to whatever their real populations numbers are.
Lastly, I knew it was a matter of time before someone said it was the weather. Every year that the harvest continually falls its always the weather, the hunter that gave up, the rain, opener during the week, no snow, too much snow, too many acorns, no bait, baiting itself, full moon, no moon....the excusses they've used for the last almost 25 years now is getting old. The fact is the deer population has fallen bad. There's too many furry things eating them in the woods with the wolves being the primary factor.
Please provide a link to the DNR official document from 2021 that says bears only eat 1.4 fawns per year. They had a video camera in the collar of one bear during the predator/prey study confirming it killed 3 fawns!
www.michigan.gov/-/media/Project/Websites/dnr/Documents/WLD/Mgt/limiting_factors_deer_up.pdf?rev=21440ee4ea4a4349a3f564085bd8c783
Predator prey study. States bear are responsible for 1.4 fawn mortalities per bear yearly. Some bears kill more, some less to none. All depends on what zone the bears are in, their populations in that zone and the corresponding deer population in that zone as well. 1.4 is an average number. Coyotes are higher at 1.5 per coyote, Bobcat at 6.6 and Wolves at 5.6 fawns each. To know how many fawns are being killed in total one needs to know how many of each predator is on the landscape. Wolves kill coyotes any chance they get and general observation is coyote numbers are on the downward swing in the U.P., though still numerous. Where wolves do most damage on the deer herd is in the winter months when deer are congragated in the yards, this is where mature deer suffer most from wolves both directly and indirectly These are the mature deer with the higher percentage being does vs bucks. Take out around 18,000 to 20,000 adult deer every year by wolves, you won't have enough fawns drop in the spring to have recuitment. If wolves weren't chasing deer around 24/7/365 in the deer yards they'd be less stressed and more would survive during times of hard winters. This is a major point the study doesn't discuss. How many deer are overly stressed not making through the winter because of the wolves pressure during the winter. How much of their fat reserves do deer lose because wolves continually chase them. How many become stress due to this factor and end up aborting the fawns or have one fawn vs two which twins are more typical with whitetails.
Referencing two young bears that got inside a enclosed high fenced deer pen in 1982 is not the same as free ranging migrating U.P. deer. Those deer in a closed enviroment are more conditioned and tolerable to intrusion whether human or predators. With the sheer amount of deer that were in the Pen they had to of been given supplemental feed thus conditioning them even more and concentrating them in a more generalized area of that 1 sq mile (640 acre) enclosure. This study can also be found on line and discusses the two bears that got in. If you put a large mouth bass in a swiming pool filled with minows guess whats going to get eaten.
Richard Smith stating bears consume 30,000-50,000 fawns is his opinion and everyone is intitled to one. His statement doesn't match the study. Is the study wrong? We'll, I too dispute some of the facts they have stated in this study as well and believe it's carefully written to soften the publics perception of wolves, trying to up the toluration of the wolves to the general public. Call it social engineering, its easier to do that than to follow 1996's Proposal G "to use pricipals of sound scientific management" vs make decisions that are unpopular with a large demographic that love wolves because of a picture they see on tv or a movie/documentary with a one sided view. Most of these people have no direct interaction or feel any impact from wolves or even live in the U.P. for that matter. Most of them that favor non management of wolve are not sportsman (Hunters) and don't set foot in the woods and don't see first hand the real world effects on game populations wolves have. Politician's do not want to upset that voter base which is larger than the hunting community. After all the Mi DNR director is appointed by the Governor, NRC members are appointed and they simply follow their orders. If the State, the DNR and the NRC wanted something done, it would get done. Heck, we've got Cannabis distributers on almost every street corner now days and thats still Federally against the law yet the state allowed it. Remove politics and the issues will get resolved but this is a whole different discussion.@@lucylafaive7561
Michigan has more deer hunting season day's than all the neighboring states combined, and as far as I know Michigan has more deer hunting days than the whole mid western states combined, the DNR is worried more about revenue than wildlife management, the bear hunting crew I talked to in baraga county said the wolves ran the bear completely out of the area, the party was from Ohio and apply every year for a bear tag the four of them, and draw a bear tag on average every 10 years, bottom line is the status quo, will end deer hunting in the upper peninsula, like it did in the lower Michigan over 100 years ago
I think deer hunting in the UP is soon to be gone forever. The main problem is that the dynamics of the wolf vs deer populations is out of the hands of the UP voters that want to sustain their hunting heritage. The long history of hunting in the UP is now in the hands of more heavily populated lower Michigan, where the majority wants the deer population regulated to assure that the wolves have enough food, rather than that UP deer hunters have a successful experience. This larger voting group would rather see hunting eliminated entirely, and the wolf population increased substantially. Wait until UP hunters see deer hunting restricted if not curtailed entirely so that wolves have enough to eat. That’s when the real dynamics of this will hit home. Wisconsin has a similar problem because of the lower voter population in the northern half of the State vs the southern, but not to the extent of the huge population disparity between the UP and lower Michigan. The only way to remedy this is that the UP needs to a separate State, where your policies are not dictated by the anti hunting majority below the bridge.
You forgot to mention the wolves 🐺 a adult wolf can take up 30 deer 🦌 to survive . They need to get out of the office and go talk to farmers or loggers and interview hunters . My opinion it’s just like Northern Wisconsin to many wolves .
I did interview others that talked about wolf predation being one of the biggest factors. Check out my other podcasts! :) Thanks for watching! Believe me, if I could dedicate more time to the topic I would.
@@discovertheup I didn’t mean to come down on you it’s a big problem here in Northern Wisconsin and I would like to let people know . Our take them for a ride in the woods and walk around .
@@davidevans474No worries! I hardly ever comment back but wanted to make sure you saw the other interviews! I live in the sticks up here and see wolves or tracks frequently.
Michigan wolf population has entered the chat….
I've followed Richard P Smith for at least 20 years and always respected his opinion but he's using data from at least 10 year's ago .if he was to look at the last few years he would see that they canceled dogsled racing because there's no snow so they really need to stop that excuse! It's wolves
RPS- You spoke too soon about the year-round coyote season. The NRC just voted 4-2 in favor of closing the coyote season from 4-15 until 7-15. The NRC as well as the DNR are in the insurance companies back pocket. I'm not so sure you aren't in the same boat. Worried about bears but didn't mention the real problem, WOLVES.
Did the interview before the NRC vote.
Yea, I filmed this interview before the NRC even had it on the agenda. In my audio podcast version (find it on spotify, apple podcasts, amazon, etc) I do update the public on the coyote season 3 month closure.
Just because they do a study in one area doesn’t mean it’s like that all over wolves 🐺 cover a big area.
Oof, this guy is a shill for the wolf lovers 🙄🤦🏻
Wolves are the only variable that has changed … this guy is a delusional
In my opinion, Richard Smith has no credibility or common sense when it comes to deer management. His arguments are not only flawed, but he contradicts himself constantly. He says we have to few deer, but then he says we have to many deer. His solutions for two few deer include allowing hunters to kill more bucks and does even in low deer areas. He also wants more bear shot to save more deer when he says that we have to many deer for winter carryover already. Of course his hatred of anything to do with antler point restrictions gets mentioned repeatedly. Oddly though, he's somehow OK with having one restricted buck tag, but just not two. He's a self proclaimed expert at deer management, but the reality is he a menace to deer management in the U.P.
Yup! Likes to hear himself flap gums about nonsense.
Yes thank you! Someone who knows deer and deer hunting! Wish this had made the episode!
Sounds like deer season in the up needs to cease for 5 yrs
its called over hunting of deer time to get rid of the youth hunt and go back to the old tag system one tag for bow one tag for gun and no more doe hunting why do you think they got rid of doe hunting back in the 60s and not brought back to the mid 80s.
Give up on Michigan deer and go to Iowa , Illinois or Kansas.