I picked up on the same signals in that late conversation when Hari focuses his attention on Demerzel. When Hari gives Demerzel a copy of the Prime Radiant, it's more than just a symbolic gesture. He's entrusting her with a tool that only a mind like hers can fully grasp. This could be Hari's way of allowing Demerzel to see the mathematical inevitability of the fall of the Cleonic dynasty. In doing so, he might be offering her a form of intellectual freedom, a chance to understand and accept her role in the grand scheme of psychohistory.
Optimistically, I would like to see Hari's challenge for Demerzel to define a better future to meet some kind of parity with the Foundation. Or perhaps it will align with the other major player hidden from us (posited in the video). If Demerzel is not allow the intellectual freedom then this would seem to imply a redefining of the law that imprisons Demerzel.
Agreed. When the clones are referred to as Empire does that mean what's good for them is good for the billions of people and planets in the galaxy? Melding the individual with what is defined as a political entity muddies the waters significantly especially for Demerzel.
Possibly. I don't know if it's a one to one situation. Demerzel in the show is experiencing human emotions and wants to be free of the compulsion to serve. It makes her true motivations harder to ascertain. Of course she wants to be free but then what? It's the more interesting question because of course she'll have to find ways to work within her directive to undermine it.
Demerzel's present situation puts her an ideal position to rule over humanity. If she is a robot bent on the destruction of mankind and their ilk it's the perfect cover and station from which to operate. One thing I have noted throughout the series is her arm and hand position, kind of iconic. She is always in touch with her bracelet and in times of great distress she clutches it almost desperately, If I remember correctly Demerzel claimed to have had some kind of religious experience, a very human and perhaps exclusively human experience. Day underhandedly faked his own divine experience to "prove" his human nature. Demerzel's mandate to serve Empire puts her in this untenable place of conflict with her faith. I believe she is never satisfied or happy to see the destruction of a human.Check out her expressions whenever she is responsible or just witnessing.@@PetePeppers1
@@PetePeppers1 This will become more evident in 3. But something just seems to stick out that she/he (I'm sorry, but this HAS to be Daniel) wants some kind of revenge or remuneration (for lack of a better) for the loss of her/his people. Or maybe...Daniel is the seperate component?
My theories for what Demerzel saw in the radiant are 1) the Genetic Dynasty is inherently flawed in ways that it's continued existence will always bring about it's inevitable end, so she just needs to let it play out and eventually she will be free 2) she's not the only robot that survived the war after all - she might not even be anywhere near the only robot that survived the war. Or both.
Viewers needing to enter cryosleep to wait for season 3 is right! My brothers fiance worked on Season 2 in the prop department for a few months. The last few episodes of S2 were constantly interupted by her.."Oh OH Look! I made that! The Solar System box, I made that! Days Dagger! I made that!" etc etc. Anyway, the point is......she worked on Season 2 Autumn/Fall till Christmas....2021. ie. about18 months before it aired. She couldn't work on S3 with the rest of the prop crew because of health issues and just when she got her health sorted the writers and actors strike started so she still hasn't gotten to go back to work on Foundation or any other major productions as the are all on hold. So the normal timescale for the wait for S3 probably would have been 18 months but now with the strikes, who knows when it'll finish production and air now. Summer 2025 at the earliest I imagine!
I like the scene with Poly they didn't shoot. There should've been some consequence for Dr. Seldon incinerating the Warden of Terminus. His wrath of god act is very similar to something Brother Day would do. It makes the plan for a second Foundation critical for the future.
I’d really love to know who the Mule is and why he is so against the foundation so I hope they go in that direction. Would seem to me that a story that the child of Dawn and Sareth would be against the Foundation could be spun but does seem to be a stretch. My guess is that a version of Tellum would still be around but again seems unlikely. Guess we’ll have to wait a couple years. Great show. Love coming to this channel for the in depth insight
Lots of lingering questions and a lot to think about until Season 3 gets here. Is there more than one Demerzel out there? The cut scene on New Terminus is really interesting and it's a shame they couldn't afford to have it be part of the finale. Let me know what you think. Season 2 Ending Explained ruclips.net/video/QyBkpLFDzvA/видео.html Season 2 Finale Discussion with Showrunner David S. Goyer ruclips.net/video/jwqftbRhCSE/видео.html Season 2 Wrap Up with Jim and A.Ron from Bald Move - ruclips.net/user/livezk6ziULdeVU?feature=share
i like the idea you had about foundation using whisper ships on a grand scale, sale they sell ships or just upgrade the engines of existing ships, either way, very profitable, and with money come other troubles of course, and as to your comment on the spacers, i think they may play a larger role than we might think, after all it was foundation who freed them, i am not saying they talk ona daily basis or have a presence near foundation, but friendship , becasue the spacers are no longer slaves to anyone, or think of eit one other way and foundation does not share whipser drives or any tech, and builds itself up as a new Hidden power, just sucha good show thanks for a season Pete i look forward to the three body problem
Something I'm a bit confused about is how Demerzel being a robot is hidden from the public. She has looked the same age for about 600 years in the public eye, how does Empire explain this?
The show is filmed in Prague and the actors and crew were spotted in Prague over the summer which kind of implies they're moving forward with season 3. The strike might affect the visualfx teams & post production but even if it didn't & season 3 gets finished it definitely won't be announced by apple much less air until the strike is over.
@PetePeppers1 forgive me if you’ve already answered this, but how was Demerzel able to break Brother Dawn’s neck in Season One? Is it because his genetic code had been changed and therefore she wasn’t bound by the code of not harming Cleon? She then finds out later that all their codes had been altered, so what prevented her from exercising that loophole further?
@@lawrencecirillo3233 The speculation has been since he was color blind, there was enough genetic drift to lose his immunity from neck snappy snappy. I've never seen it officially answered but this theory makes sense to me.
I think the Vault has the ability to slow or speed time within it. When Hober went inside, Constant followed minutes later but to Hober it was like weeks while he was inside. It could be that the Foundation will settle wherever and the people of Terminus will resume after 150 years like they never aged.
Yea the Vault seems to play with time. When Salvor used the Prime Radiant and spoke to Seldon, she told him about Hober but he hadn’t a clue of who he was despite being the one who wrote it on the vault in the first place. Then he writes it on the Vault just like the first time it showed up
@@thephilosopher7173That was the synchronization point between the two storylines, the Ignis/Gaal/Salvor storyline is actually first, Salvor visits the vault, tells DrSeldon the name, he writes it on the vault, then the Terminus storyline continues.
@@muche6321 Yeah, from the podcasts it seems like there's split timeline storytelling between the Gaal/Salvor/Hari White arc and the rest of the characters. Hari Black wrote the name because the events with Salvor already happened weeks earlier, but we didn't see those events until a few episodes had passed.
They still didn’t explain who was responsible for the genetic alteration or the Star-Bridge destruction. Some believe it’s Demerzel but that sounds like a counter to her programming.
As I mentioned in the video I was one of the ones who thought it might be Demerzel without any other suspects to choose from. She was the only character we'd met that could pull something like that off. The reveal about how Cleon's Law worked kind of makes that impossible. There almost needs to be another humaniform robot with the same capabilities out there. It could also be possible that her consciousness is distributed and part of it/her operates independently.
@@PetePeppers1 in episode 2, Day was talking to Demerzel about Empress Hanlo & Ammentic. After Day left her, Demerzel stared and gave a small nod to the painting on the wall of the Empresses, which I thought was a clue.
You should watch showrunner and show creator David Goyer's interview that he did with 'The Movie Blog's Anthony, where the host directly asked those questions and while Goyer didn't specifically answer them, he indicated that they haven't been forgotten and that the show ill definitely revisit all those hanging threads that were left over from Season1 (and some from this season as well), in the upcoming Season 3.. It was a really great interview,...just like Pete's but Anthony was directly asking him questions that fans and viewers watching the show are asking and he was answering them (for the most part).
I think Hary raised an important point when he asked to define "serving empire". Is it to serve it for power or for longevity? I bet this will be key in the next season.
Finally you ask the question I have been thinking about. WHAT IS THE VAULT! Magic matter machine. Unlimited space, food and water! Needs an explanation. When day and Demerzel where there could digital harry have taken the matter that makes up the device in her neck and turn it into an apple in her hand or something along those line. She wouldn’t be able to hurt him since he’s a hologram. The vault just seems like a place where the writers can literally do anything they want!
About the Spacers. Not all of them under Empire died, the ones from civilian ships are probably alive and serving. So Trantor had some time to readapt to old tech (like Invictus) before they would run out of spacers.
I imagine the destruction of Empire ships like a Pearl Harbor attack, where even if a large percentage of the fleet was destroyed, Empire is far from defenseless.
Demerzel's story kinda gives us insight into the history of nanobots. Demerzel was defeated, captured, and spliced into panes during the Robot Wars. When Cleon I frees her from those panes, nanobots reconstruct her. So the tech has been around for 1000s of years. Hari's mortality directive empowering those nanobots to build a tesseract is likely tied to Kalle and/or Yanna.
I love your videos !!! Thank you so much for offering all of us great quality content here. Your analysis are fantastic Pete :) I have just subscribed but I have been watching for a long time ahahaha.
Brilliant Review and Analysis. Always wondered who/what is Kalah and about Hari’s source for 4th dimensional technology. This explains the need for seasons 5-8. Cheers 🍻
I just want to know if the Vault saved and transported any Becky dragons to New Terminus. If Becky proved anything, it's that they are a very beneficial species to keep around and on your side.
I was intrigued about it too. If there is any exobiologic life form like the bishop clwas, maybe there is some intelligent life form out there. And how were te spacers created? Are they GMH (genetically modiiec humans)? I hope these misteries are solved in season 3.
They are but they are also expensive for vfx and a little OP. Can the Mule's mind control powers work on creatures? If not, can't they just sick a pack on him and be done with the S3 big bad?
S01E02 around 11:30 after everyone 'dies' during training Gaal informs the rest that bishop's claw is "local megafauna, endemic to the Outer Reach' so I guess those creatures are all over the place, not just on Terminus.
I really appreciate your analyses of the series. I was hoping that they might explore some of Asimov’s prequel material, such as how Eto Demerzel is actually the latest identity of R. Daneel Olivaw.
In guessing about S3, remember at the end of S1, it was revealed empire's genetic code had been corrupted and it was a REALLY BIG DEAL. Then over the break, the writers decided it was of no consequence at all and just hand-waved it away. "Sure a little DNA is mucked, who cares? Old news; let's move on." So who knows what major plot point from the end of S2 will be swept under the rug in S3 because the writers changed their minds again and it doesn't fit their new narrative.
There could be something to the theory that Demerzel and Hari knew each other and that the Vault could be robot technology, how exactly with the first two seasons, I have no clue but there is something to this.
@@michaelmayhem350 With the prime radiant, she is the most powerful entity in the galaxy. She will find a way to overcome her limitations and will show no mercy to those pesky humans who enslaved her and killed her people. They could feed into the AI fear that people have at the moment.
My thoughts are that Demerzel/Daneel and Dr. Seldon will ultimately be discovered to be working together, at least when it comes to the plans for the future of mankind via the prime radiant/psychohistory. I think she smiled when she saw that there was a future for mankind at all, despite the darkness that surrounds everyone at this point. We saw in S2E10, that the Empire is in trouble , if not actually falling -- of course, Goyer keeps us guessing, so it remains to be seen. And too, I've shared this before, but I share it here as another idea to consider: Whenever Demerzel says the words "I serve Empire", it has always seemed to be cryptic to me -- even though we now know that she has been reprogramed to love the Cleons, the statement always has struck me as a sly way of saying she serves the whole of humanity that encompasses the Empire.
yeah, it's also weird because Season 3 scripts are already done. I can't tell if it's because they want to create some mystery or if the story will be split like it was in books 2 and 3.
Yo Pete! When do you think we can get a complete vid outlining all the references to demerzel and the robot wars from the show. There are a lot of references that point to the art on the wall and in brief moments of dialog.
So, when leaving Terminus, Empire killed the priests and took the scientists. Right? So when the ships started jumping into themselves and everyone died, was Hari able to "rescue" the scientists? Hober? Or is it only those on the surface?
Pretty sure it was everyone on the planet. So they lost some un-named scientist we never met or cared about. I still think Dr. Seldon should've tried and failed to save some beloved characters. Him saving them all was too convenient for me. Especially since some of them (the dad and Poly) had already finished their redemption arcs and didn't really need to be saved for the story to continue.
I agree that Day, who ordered the scientists to be taken, must've gotten them killed on the jump ships. But perhaps they weren't so central to Foundation's SO-SO advanced technology. I'm glad Peter brings up the "magical" tech advances of Foundation. Kalleh might be behind them. On a side note, I must point our that Day took the prime radiant, which Seldon offered to Demerzel. And Demerzel must've picked Day's pocket to take it back to Trantor. (Wouldn't she have been destroyed if she stayed on the jump ship?) Could Seldon have known she would abandon Day then... and take the PR? It's hard to know what are plot holes and what are intentional.
It seems that the Mule is set to conquer the galaxy and Empire would be his first target, maybe? If he goes to war with the Empire he'll run into Demerzel which will be very interesting. I'm excited about season 3. Pete, great coverage of the series sofar!
@@royalsd I was thinking the same. If so, he might be seeking to claim the throne as rightful heir, and that will put him at odds with the foundation, who seek to destroy the empire.
@@royalsdI believe the mule may be tellem bond, in one of gaal's visions she supposedly foresees the mule killing salvor, well that's what actually happens in the show and then the mule's monologue at the end about how he saw gaal in a thousand DREAMS BEFORE and NOW she's here in OUR TIME.
@@amalielk that sounds like a neat theory, he does seem to go crazy, I think in the show they specified the mule just tries to destroy all civilization. So maybe his upbringing with people that were originally royal might cause it.
Kalle theories. Book spoilers. 1. If they didn't have the rights issues, I would say Giskard. They way they like to subvert the source material, Goskard surviving and being I'm conflict with Demerzel would seem to be right up their alley. 2. And again linked with the Robots and retcomned in Fpundation and Earth to be a Daneel project, Gaia. I thought at first the Mentallics were going to explained asGaia, they definitely borrowed some elements with the food feeling pain thing.
You said harry's a mathematician and don't understand how he could have built the ship but he built the prime radiant, the ship is scale up of the prime radiant
I agree to a point-- studios also take the risks. If a project bombs and loses money should all those involved also have to take a loss?-- of course not. The fact is every project isn't profitable but salaries get paid out regardless that's why the studios will always makes more and I'm ok w:that. That's just a separate side point that's not really tied to the strike because what the actors and writers are asking for won't cost the studios that much more and to my naive eyes seems pretty fair. But I honestly haven't done any fact checking im just going by what I here them saying-- and again it seems what the writers and actors want is easily doable and fair.
I wonder how long Cleon will take to reach the Cloud Dominion without a jumpship given that the empire had monopoly over the technology and, as of now, jumpships might be scarce or even gone
_slow ships_ travel 50,000 ly in 1878 days (the raven to Terminus) which Is very fast, halfway across the galaxy in 5 years approx, faster than Warp 9.995 in StarTrek, but slower than the fastest StarWars ship.
Maybe by the next season, the genetic drift will be so strong that one of them will be like the inbred family from West Virginia in that Prime Video documentary.
I think that there was a group of robots who went into hiding during or after the robot wars. They continued to develop technology that exceeded that of Empire or Foundation. I think Hari somehow knew about this with his psychohistory calculations and was able to make contact with this faction, or the robot faction contacted him after Hari revealed his calculations to Empire. There may be robot spies throughout the galaxy. The robots and Hari joined forces. His "resurrection" into a new body may be a robotic body. And this alliance would explain how the Vault came to be and how powerful it is. (EDIT: I read the books decades ago and I cannot remember much of the story. Maybe my comments here are coming from my subconscious mind? I hope I am not giving spoilers from the books.)
Funny thing! I read the trilogy... all three books. Like so many more productions, I know NOTHING about these! Someday maybe I will watch, but for now I have only the text in the trilogy and the cover art! (I especially liked the girl in the short shorts)!
Man I gotta say. The Day fight scene was siiick. It wasnt flashy with spin kicks. It was just gritty af. I cheered when Day spat blood in dudes face. So f'ng cool. Excellent last episode❤
I'M sorry but as a NON book reader my head is fried :/....... at times. Loving the show with that stated. But most of all, your commentary is keeping me in line.
Demerzel,I figure, was a robot that fought for the empire that did something(betrayal?) that the emperor took very personal to "box" her like that. Or she is was a very valuable commodity that he wanted to keep in his back pocket and he died suddenly, before he was able to do anything with her.
I'm almost certain Demerzel won't be the same in this series as in the books. I can't remember where I read/heard this, but it's my understanding that Asimov's robot stories are a separate entity from the Foundation series when it comes to getting the rights to adapt them for film or TV. That means Demerzel's link to pre-Foundation books probably won't be translated directly to this show. That said, I don't see that as being a major problem: they can map out a new history for Demerzel that either arrives at a similar place as the books, or is "inspired by". Slightly spoileriffic: to be precise, I don't expect to find out that Demerzel was influencing things as much behind the scenes as they were in the books. But I do think that role may have been taken on by some other entity, whether robotic or otherwise. (Oona's World maybe) (I hope for more robots, lol)
the moment Cleon I implanted that chip to her, it's already a path towards a waaaay different character than the books. Demerzel/Daneel is supposed to be the puppet master but in the show, she's not that free to do so.
The Vault is likely a 4-dimensional object in our 3-dimensional universe. Humans can "go inside the Vault" thanks to a simple transformation to any combination of the 3 axis that include the dimension that is not visible from the normal 3-dimensions we live in. Think of x, y, z, and w. A human inside the vault could be existing on the y, z, and w axis. This use of the 4th dimension, might be what also drives the Prime Radiant.
The 4th axis is probably time. Which could explain the time phenomena that we seen when inside it. Hober wondering for 2 days, and Salvor telling Hari about Hober before he even requested him
Does this mean Demerzel can see Gale and visa versa? Could Hari (without the radiant and Salvour's influence) think that he can shorten the dark times by becoming a new empire and/or the second foundation? (this would definately bring a showdown between the two Hari Seldons). There is a part of me that also thinks the Mule could be the child of Hober and Constent and that being inside the Vault has somehow influenced his mind and linked him to Gale somehow (but I did get this idea while wearing my tinfoil hat).
That deleted scene about the Vault landing on New Terminus, would really change the outcome of next season. Are they still going to follow it along those lines, or are they going to come up with a new direction?
Im honestly bummed that the Salvor/Gail Mother/Daughter story could not be more developed. And the most interesting character in future seasons will be the robot, not The Mule.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Hari is an advanced robot in later Seasons. It would explain how he’s in an organic body, but the scanners only picked up his aura and not Kalle. Or in this universe someone solved the “Mortal” problem but only uses it on Hari…..
Did Demerzel take Hober's Whisper ship? When Hober&Constant was captured by Bel, their ship was taken inside the Imperial flagship, called the Rubicon. Then Day&Demerzel arrived. So when Demerzel left to return back to Trantor, did she take the Whisper ship with her? So when the ship was locked to self destruct, if it wasn't taken, there's enough room inside the Whisper ship for some dozen ppl since Beki's gone. Anyway considering that most of the Imperial Fleet is an Terminus and got wiped out, there wouldn't be any new Spacers volunteering to be the Navigators to the Imperial warships. Those that weren't inside the warships like civilian ships would had left&likely not return. So Empire only has the regular slow FTL drives instead of the fold drives that can travel very fast between one sector of the galaxy to another. So long as Empire has no access to the Whisper ships' technology, they can't keep their control on planets all over the galaxy as they can't defend their sovereignty fast enough.
I suppose it's also possible that he figured out she was a robot the moment she entered the vault. It makes you wonder why he didn't do some rerogramming of his own since we've seen he's quite capable of that.
Since there have been elements of Asimov's story , beyond settings and characters, yeah , there is a big mystery. Demerzel's powers have been established, 18,000 years has been established (20,000 in the books) , some Robot history told, also , and might just be me, seems every reference to the AI Robots hedges about there being only one. So, is the long 20.000 year Robot hand-that-rocks-the-cradle story running in the background? Maybe , maybe not, but Goyer has kept elements of that narrative running at the edges.
Maybe Kalle is a Robot? Possibly Yanna also …. Never made sense that Empire could not replicate the technology of the prime radiant with a galaxy full of scientists and engineers
Well, Hari asked Demerzel what was more important to empire, power or longevity? In the books, what was left the capital was relocated to a neighboring Star system. The emperor, who was kind and very sinale old man, is killed off by the mule Kenny G style. Trantor was basically sold off for scrap metal.
That is a question I don't think can be given a simple answer. To a certain extent, power is security and security is longevity. But seeking greater power can lead an empire to over extend itself. And an empire over extending itself dilutes its ability to maintain its territories. Longevity is not a universal good either. Many empires, like Rome, lasted far beyond their cultural peak and its citizens slowly stagnated into ignorance and cowardice. Rather I think Dune had the right answer. Humans are not meant to be unified under one empire. They need to disperse and reach places never before discovered by man. They need to form their own societies on planets so far away no empire can find them. Humans need to diversify and evolve into different species.
@@RealLifeIronMan well not to burst your bubble, but Rome technically lasted over 2000 years, and ended with the fall of Constantinople in 1453 to the Turks. Frankly, I don’t think it’s a question of universal good, but merely a statement of how long the Cleons last.
@trancemutator5393 Nothing I said contradicted that. Admittedly, I could have phrased it better. 'Empire' can mean many things in the show: Cleons, Demerzel, or the people. I was speaking under the latter definition. Longevity is not something empires should always seek (because of a slow decline is far worse). I used Rome (including Constantinople) as an example of an empire that lasted a very long time (thousands of years) but experienced a slow decline.
I believe S2 already give a hint to most of Foundation question and that was Prime Radiant quantum capability which is a superposition, can be anywhere in a same time, but this also make it possible to be in any given time since it isn't a truly 3 dimensional object, Harry Sheldon only simplify it like it does currently, so the knowledge within it should be immersive
Wonder how Empire remains Empire without FTL? Seems that shortly after the fleet / merchant spaceships quits visiting planets,individual worlds would devolve into unique forms of governance and would develop their own technology. PS - it would seem logical that Demerzel has the knowledge of FTL and robots wouldn’t need Spacers to travel so would she use knowledge to reestablish FTL? PS2 - Can slow boats still serve to maintain Empire? PS3 - what is the technology that drives the vault?
I believe you're referring to the Empire as a political unit (as opposed to the trio of clones that refer to themselves as Empire). That is exactly the theme I see them exploring in the next season. 1. As I understood it, Spacers were needed to navigate the ship during the jump (passenger care was only a side-gig). Foundation's Whisper ships use some brain tissue for that purpose. I imagine Demerzel could learn/knows how to do it as well, but that will be just one working jump ship, usable for her/Day's purposes, entirely insufficient for Empire's needs. 2. Slow ships will be usable, but will not be able maintain the current influence of the Empire. A comparison I've seen is to imagine all travel using combustion engines is suddenly impossible and all you're left with is sailboats and horse carriages.
@@PetePeppers1I think it has to be demrazel for both the starbridge and the dna contamination she’s trying to break free from her programming if the genetic dynasty and empire doesn’t exist she’ll be free so she might be trying to speed up the fall
The vault, Hari, and the 2nd radiant are all the same, so when you enter it, you reveal what you are, I suspect Kale and her technology are behind what makes Hari's existence superior. Maybe, she fought in opposition to Demerzel during the robot wars.
I have a theory on there being a more powerful entity besides demrezel behind the scenes. Maybe it’s an ai that she herself has been building because if I think about it she has had hundreds of years to train it so it’s possible that she could have a secret planet somewhere full of human slaves prepping a second generation of her kind after cleon the 1st’s betrayal
I think the Mule will end up descending from Sareth and Dawn based on Demerzel's reaction to the Radiant and her seemingly kind choice to let the couple escape. Perhaps she viewed the radiant and realized that Seldon was right except for the fact that he couldn't have fully accounted for the Mule (a hidden heir to the empire). And if it was factually true the empire as it was, is meant to fall then supporting the development of a potential new empire under the same dynasty still fulfills her programming given the reality of the situation. It's as Dawn said "interpretation", making Demerzel realize that it's better to have a dystopian empire than no empire at all. That is who Mule was talking to in the last ep and why he knows who Gail is and is focused on the foundation. He is partly Demerzel revenge on Seldon's legacy.
I liked this season. I have one of those TVs that can convert 2D into 3D and I watched this season in that generated "3D". It's not as good as real 3D but the opening sequence in that generated 3D looks really good. The images don't come out of the screen but they have depth.
He didn't have to know she was a robot. Hari is a cloned intelligence which projects as a hologram. The vault is very advanced piece of technology. It could probably be called a "hyper computer". When they entered it, all he had to do is to scan them. It would be obvious who is a living human and who is an android. Hari most probably fully controls everything within that 4D space so he could've deleted them right there or just trap for ever. He let them go because he needed Terminus to be destroyed and her to go do something else
That is interesting. It makes sense that with the council. Any empire is dependant on the dynasties that support it, get power through it. The emperor, clone or not, is just a figure head. Wonder what Cleon I arranged with the dynasties. Most likely that he would ensure their survival, status and wealth, as long as they supported the Empire (Demerzel). They know more and have more real power than the figure heads, the clones. If the Empire is weak, they will turn against the empire, and then each other.
okay no book reader here, so i have a question for the group if foundation was just in its religious phase or arc, what come after that? what would the foundation look like after it drops its Church of seldon ?
Help me out here: wasn't there a disruption in continuity? Terminus Seldon asks for Hober after hearing his name from Salvor. However, the episode where he actually writes his name on the vault far precedes the one where he learns of him. Am I correct here? Or messing something up? It sounds like some kind of time loop?! Or is it just an effect of the nature of the vault and time? Maybe the different story lines are just not as contemporaneous as the episodes suggest.
Indeed, the Ignis/Gaal/Salvor storyline is actually first, Salvor visits the vault, tells DrSeldon the name, he writes it on the vault, then the Terminus storyline continues. You could think of it as an elaborate flashback (several episodes long, and not declared as such).
@@muche6321 The same writers played with time in the same way for the show WestWorld on HBO. They kept you guessing about where a scene happened in time.
![GEEK TIMË [OFFICIAL AUDIO]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ry-6RvkH880/mqdefault.jpg)
I picked up on the same signals in that late conversation when Hari focuses his attention on Demerzel. When Hari gives Demerzel a copy of the Prime Radiant, it's more than just a symbolic gesture. He's entrusting her with a tool that only a mind like hers can fully grasp. This could be Hari's way of allowing Demerzel to see the mathematical inevitability of the fall of the Cleonic dynasty. In doing so, he might be offering her a form of intellectual freedom, a chance to understand and accept her role in the grand scheme of psychohistory.
This could lead her off to the conclusion that Gaia is a better way for her to serve "humanity"
Optimistically, I would like to see Hari's challenge for Demerzel to define a better future to meet some kind of parity with the Foundation. Or perhaps it will align with the other major player hidden from us (posited in the video). If Demerzel is not allow the intellectual freedom then this would seem to imply a redefining of the law that imprisons Demerzel.
@@isaac.anthony A HUGE thumbs up to you!
The end of Empire is her freedom. Hari offered Demerzel her freedom right under Cleon's nose.
At no point in time does hari tell people his true intentions . Especially the holo hari that is missing parts of the plan in the control group .
I wonder how Sareth will look at Brother Dawn as he grows into brother Day?
Demerzel has to redefine what _The Cleonic Empire_ means, like how she redefined the 3 Laws to Zeroth Law.
Agreed. When the clones are referred to as Empire does that mean what's good for them is good for the billions of people and planets in the galaxy? Melding the individual with what is defined as a political entity muddies the waters significantly especially for Demerzel.
Possibly. I don't know if it's a one to one situation. Demerzel in the show is experiencing human emotions and wants to be free of the compulsion to serve. It makes her true motivations harder to ascertain. Of course she wants to be free but then what? It's the more interesting question because of course she'll have to find ways to work within her directive to undermine it.
Similar assumption ^^
Demerzel's present situation puts her an ideal position to rule over humanity. If she is a robot bent on the destruction of mankind and their ilk it's the perfect cover and station from which to operate. One thing I have noted throughout the series is her arm and hand position, kind of iconic. She is always in touch with her bracelet and in times of great distress she clutches it almost desperately, If I remember correctly Demerzel claimed to have had some kind of religious experience, a very human and perhaps exclusively human experience. Day underhandedly faked his own divine experience to "prove" his human nature. Demerzel's mandate to serve Empire puts her in this untenable place of conflict with her faith. I believe she is never satisfied or happy to see the destruction of a human.Check out her expressions whenever she is responsible or just witnessing.@@PetePeppers1
@@PetePeppers1 This will become more evident in 3. But something just seems to stick out that she/he (I'm sorry, but this HAS to be Daniel) wants some kind of revenge or remuneration (for lack of a better) for the loss of her/his people. Or maybe...Daniel is the seperate component?
Thanks! As a long, long time Foundation/Robot fan, really enjoyed your analysis of the show and interviews.
Thanks so much. I really appreciate it.
I agree, whatever tech is behind Caleigh is probalby tied to how the vault is so much more advanced than anything else in Foundation or Empire
I was thinking she was a robot like demrezel but after seeing the hold an entire planet population I think this theory makes sense.
Is she present/past? And does Caliegh have any relations to the Robot Wars/prequels?
My theories for what Demerzel saw in the radiant are 1) the Genetic Dynasty is inherently flawed in ways that it's continued existence will always bring about it's inevitable end, so she just needs to let it play out and eventually she will be free 2) she's not the only robot that survived the war after all - she might not even be anywhere near the only robot that survived the war. Or both.
Could Kalle be R Giskard perhaps?
I'm guessing 2025 or late 2024 at best. Sad. Love the show.
Viewers needing to enter cryosleep to wait for season 3 is right! My brothers fiance worked on Season 2 in the prop department for a few months. The last few episodes of S2 were constantly interupted by her.."Oh OH Look! I made that! The Solar System box, I made that! Days Dagger! I made that!" etc etc. Anyway, the point is......she worked on Season 2 Autumn/Fall till Christmas....2021. ie. about18 months before it aired. She couldn't work on S3 with the rest of the prop crew because of health issues and just when she got her health sorted the writers and actors strike started so she still hasn't gotten to go back to work on Foundation or any other major productions as the are all on hold. So the normal timescale for the wait for S3 probably would have been 18 months but now with the strikes, who knows when it'll finish production and air now. Summer 2025 at the earliest I imagine!
i think i should reading the book, then🙂
Indeed. We won’t see S3 next year. It will most likely be early 2025.
Thanks a lot for the amazing coverage of the whole season! For me, your careful analysis was an indispensable part of the show experience 😀
That's great to hear. Thanks so much!
I like the scene with Poly they didn't shoot. There should've been some consequence for Dr. Seldon incinerating the Warden of Terminus. His wrath of god act is very similar to something Brother Day would do. It makes the plan for a second Foundation critical for the future.
It's a shame they couldn't film it. I think on the blog it said that it would have cost an additional $1.6 million.
Demerzel's arc in season 2 was tragic.
I love your summaries and the show. Thanks
Yeah what he said.
Sad that Fiundation season is over but happy that For All Mankind is about to begin
When is For all mankind gonna start?
I'm looking forward to FAM
@@TroyerTB 52 Sperms..I mean, Days
November
@@TroyerTB 10-Nov-2023
I’d really love to know who the Mule is and why he is so against the foundation so I hope they go in that direction. Would seem to me that a story that the child of Dawn and Sareth would be against the Foundation could be spun but does seem to be a stretch. My guess is that a version of Tellum would still be around but again seems unlikely. Guess we’ll have to wait a couple years. Great show. Love coming to this channel for the in depth insight
Lots of lingering questions and a lot to think about until Season 3 gets here. Is there more than one Demerzel out there? The cut scene on New Terminus is really interesting and it's a shame they couldn't afford to have it be part of the finale. Let me know what you think.
Season 2 Ending Explained ruclips.net/video/QyBkpLFDzvA/видео.html
Season 2 Finale Discussion with Showrunner David S. Goyer ruclips.net/video/jwqftbRhCSE/видео.html
Season 2 Wrap Up with Jim and A.Ron from Bald Move - ruclips.net/user/livezk6ziULdeVU?feature=share
i like the idea you had about foundation using whisper ships on a grand scale, sale they sell ships or just upgrade the engines of existing ships, either way, very profitable, and with money come other troubles of course, and as to your comment on the spacers, i think they may play a larger role than we might think, after all it was foundation who freed them, i am not saying they talk ona daily basis or have a presence near foundation, but friendship , becasue the spacers are no longer slaves to anyone, or think of eit one other way and foundation does not share whipser drives or any tech, and builds itself up as a new Hidden power, just sucha good show thanks for a season Pete i look forward to the three body problem
Something I'm a bit confused about is how Demerzel being a robot is hidden from the public. She has looked the same age for about 600 years in the public eye, how does Empire explain this?
The show is filmed in Prague and the actors and crew were spotted in Prague over the summer which kind of implies they're moving forward with season 3. The strike might affect the visualfx teams & post production but even if it didn't & season 3 gets finished it definitely won't be announced by apple much less air until the strike is over.
@PetePeppers1 forgive me if you’ve already answered this, but how was Demerzel able to break Brother Dawn’s neck in Season One? Is it because his genetic code had been changed and therefore she wasn’t bound by the code of not harming Cleon? She then finds out later that all their codes had been altered, so what prevented her from exercising that loophole further?
@@lawrencecirillo3233 The speculation has been since he was color blind, there was enough genetic drift to lose his immunity from neck snappy snappy. I've never seen it officially answered but this theory makes sense to me.
I think the Vault has the ability to slow or speed time within it. When Hober went inside, Constant followed minutes later but to Hober it was like weeks while he was inside. It could be that the Foundation will settle wherever and the people of Terminus will resume after 150 years like they never aged.
Yea the Vault seems to play with time. When Salvor used the Prime Radiant and spoke to Seldon, she told him about Hober but he hadn’t a clue of who he was despite being the one who wrote it on the vault in the first place. Then he writes it on the Vault just like the first time it showed up
@@thephilosopher7173That was the synchronization point between the two storylines, the Ignis/Gaal/Salvor storyline is actually first, Salvor visits the vault, tells DrSeldon the name, he writes it on the vault, then the Terminus storyline continues.
@@muche6321 Yeah, from the podcasts it seems like there's split timeline storytelling between the Gaal/Salvor/Hari White arc and the rest of the characters. Hari Black wrote the name because the events with Salvor already happened weeks earlier, but we didn't see those events until a few episodes had passed.
They still didn’t explain who was responsible for the genetic alteration or the Star-Bridge destruction. Some believe it’s Demerzel but that sounds like a counter to her programming.
As I mentioned in the video I was one of the ones who thought it might be Demerzel without any other suspects to choose from. She was the only character we'd met that could pull something like that off. The reveal about how Cleon's Law worked kind of makes that impossible. There almost needs to be another humaniform robot with the same capabilities out there. It could also be possible that her consciousness is distributed and part of it/her operates independently.
@@PetePeppers1 in episode 2, Day was talking to Demerzel about Empress Hanlo & Ammentic. After Day left her, Demerzel stared and gave a small nod to the painting on the wall of the Empresses, which I thought was a clue.
You should watch showrunner and show creator David Goyer's interview that he did with 'The Movie Blog's Anthony, where the host directly asked those questions and while Goyer didn't specifically answer them, he indicated that they haven't been forgotten and that the show ill definitely revisit all those hanging threads that were left over from Season1 (and some from this season as well), in the upcoming Season 3..
It was a really great interview,...just like Pete's but Anthony was directly asking him questions that fans and viewers watching the show are asking and he was answering them (for the most part).
... Didn't we already get an answer on the genetic alternation? Wasn't it the same people who altered Dawn?
I think Hary raised an important point when he asked to define "serving empire". Is it to serve it for power or for longevity? I bet this will be key in the next season.
Finally you ask the question I have been thinking about. WHAT IS THE VAULT! Magic matter machine. Unlimited space, food and water! Needs an explanation. When day and Demerzel where there could digital harry have taken the matter that makes up the device in her neck and turn it into an apple in her hand or something along those line. She wouldn’t be able to hurt him since he’s a hologram. The vault just seems like a place where the writers can literally do anything they want!
About the Spacers. Not all of them under Empire died, the ones from civilian ships are probably alive and serving. So Trantor had some time to readapt to old tech (like Invictus) before they would run out of spacers.
I imagine the destruction of Empire ships like a Pearl Harbor attack, where even if a large percentage of the fleet was destroyed, Empire is far from defenseless.
If the studio wants to save money, I'll take an 8 episode season 3 of Lee Pace chewing the scenery.
Just turn the cameras on watch him go.
Demerzel's story kinda gives us insight into the history of nanobots. Demerzel was defeated, captured, and spliced into panes during the Robot Wars. When Cleon I frees her from those panes, nanobots reconstruct her. So the tech has been around for 1000s of years. Hari's mortality directive empowering those nanobots to build a tesseract is likely tied to Kalle and/or Yanna.
some of the most amazing tech is in our past, waiting to be rediscovered
Great stuff as always.. Am I the only one that noticed Days chanber glitching after Demerzel revive all three of them?
When a plot point doesn't seem to make sense, I just go with it bc they have earned it. Best show on TV.
I love your videos !!! Thank you so much for offering all of us great quality content here. Your analysis are fantastic Pete :) I have just subscribed but I have been watching for a long time ahahaha.
Brilliant Review and Analysis. Always wondered who/what is Kalah and about Hari’s source for 4th dimensional technology. This explains the need for seasons 5-8. Cheers 🍻
I just want to know if the Vault saved and transported any Becky dragons to New Terminus. If Becky proved anything, it's that they are a very beneficial species to keep around and on your side.
I was intrigued about it too. If there is any exobiologic life form like the bishop clwas, maybe there is some intelligent life form out there. And how were te spacers created? Are they GMH (genetically modiiec humans)? I hope these misteries are solved in season 3.
Supposedly there's a Becky on every whisper ship so I would think there's still plenty to breed
They are but they are also expensive for vfx and a little OP. Can the Mule's mind control powers work on creatures? If not, can't they just sick a pack on him and be done with the S3 big bad?
S01E02 around 11:30 after everyone 'dies' during training Gaal informs the rest that bishop's claw is "local megafauna, endemic to the Outer Reach' so I guess those creatures are all over the place, not just on Terminus.
@@tanel1234I hope so!
I really appreciate your analyses of the series. I was hoping that they might explore some of Asimov’s prequel material, such as how Eto Demerzel is actually the latest identity of R. Daneel Olivaw.
Season 3 has already started filming, but is currently on hiatus due to the strikes. I know someone who was working on it.
In guessing about S3, remember at the end of S1, it was revealed empire's genetic code had been corrupted and it was a REALLY BIG DEAL. Then over the break, the writers decided it was of no consequence at all and just hand-waved it away. "Sure a little DNA is mucked, who cares? Old news; let's move on." So who knows what major plot point from the end of S2 will be swept under the rug in S3 because the writers changed their minds again and it doesn't fit their new narrative.
There could be something to the theory that Demerzel and Hari knew each other and that the Vault could be robot technology, how exactly with the first two seasons, I have no clue but there is something to this.
I got the impression Hari is aware of a method to manipulate her.
I can see demazel being the final boss
I disagree. I think with the prime radiant she'll find a way to indirectly help Hari. If the dynasty is no more, than she has her freedom.
@@michaelmayhem350 With the prime radiant, she is the most powerful entity in the galaxy. She will find a way to overcome her limitations and will show no mercy to those pesky humans who enslaved her and killed her people. They could feed into the AI fear that people have at the moment.
@@ZeckeGegenRechtsnope...Dermezel is Daneel Oliva, the robot who guides humanity and planned psychohistory.
Great review of the open questions!
"So you wrote this one, what do you want to tell me about it?" Savage and hardcore to the bone.
I like that additional scene, it amplifies my idea that Hari's real ultimate plan, or his eventuality, is to be the new emperor.
My thoughts are that Demerzel/Daneel and Dr. Seldon will ultimately be discovered to be working together, at least when it comes to the plans for the future of mankind via the prime radiant/psychohistory. I think she smiled when she saw that there was a future for mankind at all, despite the darkness that surrounds everyone at this point. We saw in S2E10, that the Empire is in trouble , if not actually falling -- of course, Goyer keeps us guessing, so it remains to be seen.
And too, I've shared this before, but I share it here as another idea to consider: Whenever Demerzel says the words "I serve Empire", it has always seemed to be cryptic to me -- even though we now know that she has been reprogramed to love the Cleons, the statement always has struck me as a sly way of saying she serves the whole of humanity that encompasses the Empire.
The Mule as we have seen him has also had bright blue eyes so maybe descended from Brother Constant??
you make terrific videos. love your analysis. Thank you.
Something I found interesting is that David said that the Mule will be the big bad of season 3 and possibly more.
yeah, it's also weird because Season 3 scripts are already done. I can't tell if it's because they want to create some mystery or if the story will be split like it was in books 2 and 3.
Yo Pete! When do you think we can get a complete vid outlining all the references to demerzel and the robot wars from the show. There are a lot of references that point to the art on the wall and in brief moments of dialog.
I know you usually put these out closer to the new season... this is just a request. You're killing it with your reviews btw
So, when leaving Terminus, Empire killed the priests and took the scientists. Right? So when the ships started jumping into themselves and everyone died, was Hari able to "rescue" the scientists? Hober? Or is it only those on the surface?
Pretty sure it was everyone on the planet. So they lost some un-named scientist we never met or cared about. I still think Dr. Seldon should've tried and failed to save some beloved characters. Him saving them all was too convenient for me. Especially since some of them (the dad and Poly) had already finished their redemption arcs and didn't really need to be saved for the story to continue.
@@kilgaryI disagree. I’m glad he saved everyone. That just shows the Vault is highly precise and far exceeds any technological equipment Empire has.
I agree that Day, who ordered the scientists to be taken, must've gotten them killed on the jump ships. But perhaps they weren't so central to Foundation's SO-SO advanced technology. I'm glad Peter brings up the "magical" tech advances of Foundation. Kalleh might be behind them.
On a side note, I must point our that Day took the prime radiant, which Seldon offered to Demerzel. And Demerzel must've picked Day's pocket to take it back to Trantor. (Wouldn't she have been destroyed if she stayed on the jump ship?) Could Seldon have known she would abandon Day then... and take the PR? It's hard to know what are plot holes and what are intentional.
This show...and 'One Piece' give me hope. I can't freaking wait to see DUNE II...
This.
It seems that the Mule is set to conquer the galaxy and Empire would be his first target, maybe? If he goes to war with the Empire he'll run into Demerzel which will be very interesting. I'm excited about season 3.
Pete, great coverage of the series sofar!
What if the mule is the brother dawns grandson? Or from his lineage
@@royalsd I was thinking the same. If so, he might be seeking to claim the throne as rightful heir, and that will put him at odds with the foundation, who seek to destroy the empire.
@@royalsdI believe the mule may be tellem bond, in one of gaal's visions she supposedly foresees the mule killing salvor, well that's what actually happens in the show and then the mule's monologue at the end about how he saw gaal in a thousand DREAMS BEFORE and NOW she's here in OUR TIME.
@@amalielk that sounds like a neat theory, he does seem to go crazy, I think in the show they specified the mule just tries to destroy all civilization. So maybe his upbringing with people that were originally royal might cause it.
Kalle theories. Book spoilers.
1. If they didn't have the rights issues, I would say Giskard. They way they like to subvert the source material, Goskard surviving and being I'm conflict with Demerzel would seem to be right up their alley.
2. And again linked with the Robots and retcomned in Fpundation and Earth to be a Daneel project, Gaia. I thought at first the Mentallics were going to explained asGaia, they definitely borrowed some elements with the food feeling pain thing.
Subscribed.... Great synopsis.
You said harry's a mathematician and don't understand how he could have built the ship but he built the prime radiant, the ship is scale up of the prime radiant
Hey, next time you reference something from a website, would you mind also adding a link to the referenced page in the video description?
Studios need to just pay the writers. Billions of dollars should be shared not hoarded by a few.
no argument from me
I agree to a point-- studios also take the risks. If a project bombs and loses money should all those involved also have to take a loss?-- of course not. The fact is every project isn't profitable but salaries get paid out regardless that's why the studios will always makes more and I'm ok w:that. That's just a separate side point that's not really tied to the strike because what the actors and writers are asking for won't cost the studios that much more and to my naive eyes seems pretty fair. But I honestly haven't done any fact checking im just going by what I here them saying-- and again it seems what the writers and actors want is easily doable and fair.
but yacht gas is not cheap !
@@antzvoli4577it’s not about that it’s about ai replacing workers
It's not a matter of share is a matter of paying what they deserve. You see players being well payed then you have the best of the best
I wonder how long Cleon will take to reach the Cloud Dominion without a jumpship given that the empire had monopoly over the technology and, as of now, jumpships might be scarce or even gone
_slow ships_ travel 50,000 ly in 1878 days (the raven to Terminus) which Is very fast, halfway across the galaxy in 5 years approx, faster than Warp 9.995 in StarTrek, but slower than the fastest StarWars ship.
How many Cleon cycles would this be, 5? I'm looking forward to seeing what happens when Demerzeel meets the child/ancestor of Dawn and Cloud.
Exactly 5, they have 30 years in each stage, for each 30 year cycle one dies, 152/30 ~ 5.
It's a 30 year cycle so yeah, they should be on Cleon XXII or something when season 3 starts
Cleon 17 Day was hyper and aggressive so 5 degenerating cycles on in a decaying Empire could be Caligula nutz!
@@joso7228 i would think in 18,000 years some science nerds would figure out what every single one of our genes did and how to manipulate all of them.
Maybe by the next season, the genetic drift will be so strong that one of them will be like the inbred family from West Virginia in that Prime Video documentary.
I think that there was a group of robots who went into hiding during or after the robot wars. They continued to develop technology that exceeded that of Empire or Foundation. I think Hari somehow knew about this with his psychohistory calculations and was able to make contact with this faction, or the robot faction contacted him after Hari revealed his calculations to Empire. There may be robot spies throughout the galaxy. The robots and Hari joined forces. His "resurrection" into a new body may be a robotic body. And this alliance would explain how the Vault came to be and how powerful it is. (EDIT: I read the books decades ago and I cannot remember much of the story. Maybe my comments here are coming from my subconscious mind? I hope I am not giving spoilers from the books.)
Funny thing! I read the trilogy... all three books. Like so many more productions, I know NOTHING about these! Someday maybe I will watch, but for now I have only the text in the trilogy and the cover art! (I especially liked the girl in the short shorts)!
Man I gotta say. The Day fight scene was siiick. It wasnt flashy with spin kicks. It was just gritty af. I cheered when Day spat blood in dudes face. So f'ng cool. Excellent last episode❤
haven't read the books but the sand shifted when they entered and showed a skeleton...so..maybe it was always robots vs humans.
The Mule will probably turn out to be a clone of the Emperor... or his offspring (That whole stallion + donkey = mule thing).
Yes. The Vault is too much magic.
More then folding space?
Can’t wait until 3 plz drop
Maybe another robot programmed with 0th law helped Seldon build the vault and told him about Demerzel
I'M sorry but as a NON book reader my head is fried :/....... at times.
Loving the show with that stated.
But most of all, your commentary is keeping me in line.
Demerzel,I figure, was a robot that fought for the empire that did something(betrayal?) that the emperor took very personal to "box" her like that. Or she is was a very valuable commodity that he wanted to keep in his back pocket and he died suddenly, before he was able to do anything with her.
I don’t know how much they deviate from the books/lore because I’ve never read them but I am enjoying this series.
Never read the books but I lovveeee this show!! FEED ME MORE
Goyer confirmed on his website that the Galactic Council play a significant role in season 3.
1 - How tall is Memorycell?
2 - Is Memorycell single?
3 - Is Memorycell attracted to brown-haired older men?
Asking for a friend.
(lol)
I'm almost certain Demerzel won't be the same in this series as in the books. I can't remember where I read/heard this, but it's my understanding that Asimov's robot stories are a separate entity from the Foundation series when it comes to getting the rights to adapt them for film or TV. That means Demerzel's link to pre-Foundation books probably won't be translated directly to this show. That said, I don't see that as being a major problem: they can map out a new history for Demerzel that either arrives at a similar place as the books, or is "inspired by".
Slightly spoileriffic: to be precise, I don't expect to find out that Demerzel was influencing things as much behind the scenes as they were in the books. But I do think that role may have been taken on by some other entity, whether robotic or otherwise. (Oona's World maybe) (I hope for more robots, lol)
we're on the same page
the moment Cleon I implanted that chip to her, it's already a path towards a waaaay different character than the books. Demerzel/Daneel is supposed to be the puppet master but in the show, she's not that free to do so.
The Vault is likely a 4-dimensional object in our 3-dimensional universe. Humans can "go inside the Vault" thanks to a simple transformation to any combination of the 3 axis that include the dimension that is not visible from the normal 3-dimensions we live in. Think of x, y, z, and w. A human inside the vault could be existing on the y, z, and w axis. This use of the 4th dimension, might be what also drives the Prime Radiant.
The 4th axis is probably time. Which could explain the time phenomena that we seen when inside it. Hober wondering for 2 days, and Salvor telling Hari about Hober before he even requested him
Does this mean Demerzel can see Gale and visa versa? Could Hari (without the radiant and Salvour's influence) think that he can shorten the dark times by becoming a new empire and/or the second foundation? (this would definately bring a showdown between the two Hari Seldons). There is a part of me that also thinks the Mule could be the child of Hober and Constent and that being inside the Vault has somehow influenced his mind and linked him to Gale somehow (but I did get this idea while wearing my tinfoil hat).
Maybe he gave Demerzel the prime radiant because it gives her the means to find those holding the other one.
That deleted scene about the Vault landing on New Terminus, would really change the outcome of next season. Are they still going to follow it along those lines, or are they going to come up with a new direction?
Im honestly bummed that the Salvor/Gail Mother/Daughter story could not be more developed. And the most interesting character in future seasons will be the robot, not The Mule.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Hari is an advanced robot in later Seasons. It would explain how he’s in an organic body, but the scanners only picked up his aura and not Kalle. Or in this universe someone solved the “Mortal” problem but only uses it on Hari…..
Did Demerzel take Hober's Whisper ship? When Hober&Constant was captured by Bel, their ship was taken inside the Imperial flagship, called the Rubicon. Then Day&Demerzel arrived. So when Demerzel left to return back to Trantor, did she take the Whisper ship with her? So when the ship was locked to self destruct, if it wasn't taken, there's enough room inside the Whisper ship for some dozen ppl since Beki's gone. Anyway considering that most of the Imperial Fleet is an Terminus and got wiped out, there wouldn't be any new Spacers volunteering to be the Navigators to the Imperial warships. Those that weren't inside the warships like civilian ships would had left&likely not return. So Empire only has the regular slow FTL drives instead of the fold drives that can travel very fast between one sector of the galaxy to another. So long as Empire has no access to the Whisper ships' technology, they can't keep their control on planets all over the galaxy as they can't defend their sovereignty fast enough.
I suppose it's also possible that he figured out she was a robot the moment she entered the vault.
It makes you wonder why he didn't do some rerogramming of his own since we've seen he's quite capable of that.
Since there have been elements of Asimov's story , beyond settings and characters, yeah , there is a big mystery. Demerzel's powers have been established, 18,000 years has been established (20,000 in the books) , some Robot history told, also , and might just be me, seems every reference to the AI Robots hedges about there being only one. So, is the long 20.000 year Robot hand-that-rocks-the-cradle story running in the background? Maybe , maybe not, but Goyer has kept elements of that narrative running at the edges.
My question is when is S3? ^^ Been fun ^^
Maybe Kalle is a Robot? Possibly Yanna also ….
Never made sense that Empire could not replicate the technology of the prime radiant with a galaxy full of scientists and engineers
Maybe the Vault is from a Robot faction that survived the Robot Wars unbeknownst to humans…. maybe even unbeknownst to Demerzel
Mule could also be the grandchild of Hober and Constance.
Well, Hari asked Demerzel what was more important to empire, power or longevity? In the books, what was left the capital was relocated to a neighboring Star system. The emperor, who was kind and very sinale old man, is killed off by the mule Kenny G style. Trantor was basically sold off for scrap metal.
That is a question I don't think can be given a simple answer. To a certain extent, power is security and security is longevity. But seeking greater power can lead an empire to over extend itself. And an empire over extending itself dilutes its ability to maintain its territories.
Longevity is not a universal good either. Many empires, like Rome, lasted far beyond their cultural peak and its citizens slowly stagnated into ignorance and cowardice.
Rather I think Dune had the right answer. Humans are not meant to be unified under one empire. They need to disperse and reach places never before discovered by man. They need to form their own societies on planets so far away no empire can find them. Humans need to diversify and evolve into different species.
@@RealLifeIronMan well not to burst your bubble, but Rome technically lasted over 2000 years, and ended with the fall of Constantinople in 1453 to the Turks. Frankly, I don’t think it’s a question of universal good, but merely a statement of how long the Cleons last.
@trancemutator5393 Nothing I said contradicted that. Admittedly, I could have phrased it better. 'Empire' can mean many things in the show: Cleons, Demerzel, or the people. I was speaking under the latter definition. Longevity is not something empires should always seek (because of a slow decline is far worse). I used Rome (including Constantinople) as an example of an empire that lasted a very long time (thousands of years) but experienced a slow decline.
I believe S2 already give a hint to most of Foundation question and that was Prime Radiant quantum capability which is a superposition, can be anywhere in a same time, but this also make it possible to be in any given time since it isn't a truly 3 dimensional object, Harry Sheldon only simplify it like it does currently, so the knowledge within it should be immersive
Wonder how Empire remains Empire without FTL? Seems that shortly after the fleet / merchant spaceships quits visiting planets,individual worlds would devolve into unique forms of governance and would develop their own technology.
PS - it would seem logical that Demerzel has the knowledge of FTL and robots wouldn’t need Spacers to travel so would she use knowledge to reestablish FTL?
PS2 - Can slow boats still serve to maintain Empire?
PS3 - what is the technology that drives the vault?
I believe you're referring to the Empire as a political unit (as opposed to the trio of clones that refer to themselves as Empire). That is exactly the theme I see them exploring in the next season.
1. As I understood it, Spacers were needed to navigate the ship during the jump (passenger care was only a side-gig). Foundation's Whisper ships use some brain tissue for that purpose. I imagine Demerzel could learn/knows how to do it as well, but that will be just one working jump ship, usable for her/Day's purposes, entirely insufficient for Empire's needs.
2. Slow ships will be usable, but will not be able maintain the current influence of the Empire. A comparison I've seen is to imagine all travel using combustion engines is suddenly impossible and all you're left with is sailboats and horse carriages.
Season 2 was so much better than the 1st.
It would be a cool twist if Demerezel was the mule but she can't see the future.
The Mule is a random person. No one "becomes" the Mule.
So, who did blow up the space bridge then in Season 1?
Still an open question. Also, I've always thought someone powerful was behind Azura and her gang's plot to contaminate the DNA.
@@PetePeppers1I think it has to be demrazel for both the starbridge and the dna contamination she’s trying to break free from her programming if the genetic dynasty and empire doesn’t exist she’ll be free so she might be trying to speed up the fall
I'm glad they didn't include that scene it doesn't make sense empire can read minds if hari told them to much there goes the plan
The vault, Hari, and the 2nd radiant are all the same, so when you enter it, you reveal what you are, I suspect Kale and her technology are behind what makes Hari's existence superior. Maybe, she fought in opposition to Demerzel during the robot wars.
I have a theory on there being a more powerful entity besides demrezel behind the scenes. Maybe it’s an ai that she herself has been building because if I think about it she has had hundreds of years to train it so it’s possible that she could have a secret planet somewhere full of human slaves prepping a second generation of her kind after cleon the 1st’s betrayal
If anything I’d imagine she’d be that very same AI. She’s thousands of years old with information like no other in the show.
I think the Mule will end up descending from Sareth and Dawn based on Demerzel's reaction to the Radiant and her seemingly kind choice to let the couple escape. Perhaps she viewed the radiant and realized that Seldon was right except for the fact that he couldn't have fully accounted for the Mule (a hidden heir to the empire). And if it was factually true the empire as it was, is meant to fall then supporting the development of a potential new empire under the same dynasty still fulfills her programming given the reality of the situation. It's as Dawn said "interpretation", making Demerzel realize that it's better to have a dystopian empire than no empire at all. That is who Mule was talking to in the last ep and why he knows who Gail is and is focused on the foundation. He is partly Demerzel revenge on Seldon's legacy.
I liked this season. I have one of those TVs that can convert 2D into 3D and I watched this season in that generated "3D". It's not as good as real 3D but the opening sequence in that generated 3D looks really good. The images don't come out of the screen but they have depth.
Wow I really want season 3 it's so amazing better than star wars even😊
He didn't have to know she was a robot. Hari is a cloned intelligence which projects as a hologram. The vault is very advanced piece of technology. It could probably be called a "hyper computer". When they entered it, all he had to do is to scan them. It would be obvious who is a living human and who is an android.
Hari most probably fully controls everything within that 4D space so he could've deleted them right there or just trap for ever. He let them go because he needed Terminus to be destroyed and her to go do something else
I want to know if Begger will still be parked on Ignis in season 3 and if they will still use it.
I think your projecting some of your insights from the book Foundation and Earth.. Only way to explain Kalle's knowledge and power..
I think the mule may be a descendant of Cloud dominion and The Dynasty.
That is interesting. It makes sense that with the council. Any empire is dependant on the dynasties that support it, get power through it. The emperor, clone or not, is just a figure head. Wonder what Cleon I arranged with the dynasties. Most likely that he would ensure their survival, status and wealth, as long as they supported the Empire (Demerzel). They know more and have more real power than the figure heads, the clones. If the Empire is weak, they will turn against the empire, and then each other.
What if Cleon I had some knowledge and motives not yet revealed?
okay no book reader here, so i have a question for the group if foundation was just in its religious phase or arc, what come after that? what would the foundation look like after it drops its Church of seldon ?
if I remember correctly, the church era was followed by the traders who peddled all sorts of fancy trinkets much like Hober.
@@justsomebeerthank you that makes sense that have advanced tech so sell some of it, trade other bits okay thanks
Any suggestions what to see next...
I am lost without pete...
Help me out here: wasn't there a disruption in continuity? Terminus Seldon asks for Hober after hearing his name from Salvor. However, the episode where he actually writes his name on the vault far precedes the one where he learns of him.
Am I correct here? Or messing something up? It sounds like some kind of time loop?! Or is it just an effect of the nature of the vault and time? Maybe the different story lines are just not as contemporaneous as the episodes suggest.
I read it as an effect of the Vault on spaceTIME
Indeed, the Ignis/Gaal/Salvor storyline is actually first, Salvor visits the vault, tells DrSeldon the name, he writes it on the vault, then the Terminus storyline continues. You could think of it as an elaborate flashback (several episodes long, and not declared as such).
@@muche6321 The same writers played with time in the same way for the show WestWorld on HBO. They kept you guessing about where a scene happened in time.
How will the spacers get their new opalesk if terminus is destroyed. Does the new Terminus and friendly planete give it to them?