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I'm not sure how this is going to help out a muzzleloader, But what do it know. LOL. If you get some help from this Great and best of luck to you. I know next to nothing about the Gibbs rifle.It looks very similar to a Alexander Henry though.
I probably should have been more specific. Your "Paper Patch" techniques (Process) were helpful, since I'm going to start making a paper patch round for my new Gibbs Rifle!@@kcstott
Tucking the tail into the can make the end of the patch stick to the base of the bullet, i trim off the tail and basically have a ' Marlin ' style patch like you described. My finished patched bullet diameter is 1 to 2 thousands under bore diameter ( with black powder) and they shoot perfect.
Ive been doing this with my pedersoli sharps 45-90. I use a 540 gr paper patched cupped base bore riding bullet. My shiloh in 45-110 should be here in a few months.
Found your vid last night. Grateful for the careful explanation of PPB's. Using the same BACO .446 PP mold. Dropped 120 yesterday and will starting PP'ing this evening. Should share this on the Sharps forum. Well done and thx ...
Yeah, Nice video, detailed and helpful. I had a friend long ago that talked about using Onion skin for the paper....Didn't realize until now what he was describing....Thanks for the Info Kerry!
I patch as well for certain rounds, but with proper lead bhn and size, the bullet will obturate to barrel dimensions and wont lead your barrel. Great video!
I shoot grease groove bullets in my pistols. I will not shoot a grease groove in this rifle. and that's just my choice. Nothing against it just not for me.
Doesn't matter if its smokeless or black powder, no crimp needed. and yes you can crimp them but since they are already very undersized to the typical bullet and case diameter the bullet seating/crimp die will not work well if at all. RCBS dies don't work. You can however use a 45 colt sizing die to apply a mild crimp but I caution you. it is very easy to ruin the paper.
Hey! This solved a huge problem that I was having. I have a 30-06 pointed cast bullet that has a problem of being too small and tumbles. I think I can increase the bearing surface and get the adequate spin needed to stabilize it in flight. 🎉🎉🎉
Isn't paper hard on the bore? My wife has a fit it i use her sewing scissors to cut paper. There must be something to it because the knife i use to open boxes must be sharpened frequently.
And you are using a very fine edge of steel to cut paper. I am not cutting paper with a fine edge of steel. Kitchen knives dull cutting tomatoes. I want you to think about something and don't take this as being condescending. The barrel used in this rifle is the same steel and type of barrel others use to shoot jacketed bullets with smokeless powder. So what's worse on a barrel? A thin piece of paper wrapped around a bullet that is .012" under groove size , or a copper jacketed bullet that is exactly groove diameter that has to deform to fit the bore? If I was shooting jacketed bullets this barrel would be good for about 5-7K shots and I'm guessing at that number. While Kenny Wasserburger has well over 20K paper patched rounds fired in one barrel and the rifle has not shown any signs of reduced accuracy. No the paper jacket in not hard on the barrel.
@@kcstott i have shot a few PP bullets in my Shiloh but have been reluctant to do so on a steady basis. I thought I would ask a machinist. Who else would know better? Thanks
Try Steve Garby or Mike Venturino's book on shooting black powder cartridge guns of the old west. Yes, a grease cookie between a couple of .1000" card wads works wonders keep piwder fowling soft for strings of up to 10 shots before wiping the bore. I also use a news print punch wad over the primer for more even brisonance.l on the burn against the powdet column. And use a drop tube for charging the cases.
I have those books, now While a grease cookie may work on a 45-70 they do not work on the 45-110. Well they do but they need to be .375" thick due to burning 104 grains of 1.5 F powder. Paper patch bullets require a clean dry bore to get the best accuracy. Yes you can get away with it for hunting but not for 1000yd competition. Yes I use a drop tube. Thank you but I'll stick with a Multiple National champion's technique on how to load the 45-110 for competition.
Rooster Jacket bullet film lube, Paper Patching Lube. > Apply lube to patches in advance and alloy to air-dry to a tough , flexible waterproof film. Buffalo arms sell it ! I have always applied it to the patch AFTER the paper patch dries and shrinks to the bullet. > it works good but i do most things back to front !
Black powder bullets have to be flat base. If there was a boat tail the bullet would be gas cut and your accuracy would be shot. This is why we stack wads under the bullet to protect if from gas cutting.
@@kcstott thanks, the only black powder anything I've ever owned was a whitneyville replica, and I've never even held a muzzleloader, much less shot one 😎
Never heard of it but sure. it would work. Same principle applies, match the paper wrap thickness and bullet diameter to the bore or groove diameter which ever you decide to shoot,
You do need to lub the paper patched bullets. Both the paper itself, very lightly, and on top of the powder and the wad. In my experience the paper patch is in fact more accurate.
How many national championships have you won?? You do not need to lube the patch, while it will not hurt I've seen zero signs of it helping. I'm not going to add a step that does not contribute to speeding up th eprocess or making th egun more accurate.
According to Mike Venturino (author on buffalo rifles of the old west) the finished wrapped paper patched buller can even be a thousands or two under bore diameter as it will still easily slugg up and the dirrection of the paper patch aplication doesn't matter. The rifling cuts the paper when the bullet leaves the muzzle. If you examine the paper patch remnants a few feey in front of your muzzle will prove that statement. Hell, my custom mold from Mr. Steve Brooks measures out to .438 and when patched with 9 lbs clay free onion skin paper measures .448 inches. I also apply once dried a thin application of spg lube or Wonder lube to the paper befor loading and both seasons the bore and keeps subsequent shots fouling down and soft. This also tends to reduce the powder fouling ring that forms right at the forward end of the cartridge. A good idea for up to ten shots without swabbing the bore using only a blow tube to keep the black powder soft which enhances accuracy. These Shiloh Sharps rifles have extremley tight chambers so they also recommend ( if compressing the powder charge) using a drop tube and seperate compression die before you seat the bullet. This technique is useful for both paper patch as well as grease groove bullets. Using the compression die removes any issue of bullet slump (deformation) which in Shiloh rifles will make the bullet unable to chamber.
Am interested in paper-patching to be able to use ultra - hard bullets w/o barrel wear. Also, accuracy with my cast rifle loads very poor. Pistol & shotgun much better.
There's just so much wrong with your statement I don't even know where to begin. Cast bullets require a given hardness so the bullet will obdurate and grip the rifling. If your bullet is bore diameter & to hard it will not grip the rifling and will tumble on target. If your bullet is groove diameter it will just destroy the patch and lead the barrel. Barrel wear is not an issue with cast black powder loads. you could shoot a lifetime and not wear out the barrel As long as you kept it clean. Paper patching will not allow you to use ultra hard bullets. you are not understanding the concept here at all. That and I have no idea why you think ultra hard bullets wear out barrels and somehow a paper patch is going to save your barrel.
Thanks for your reply. I haven't been able to shoot in some years - just no place available - so it is an abstract interest.... my casting, reloading equipment & guns are all gathering dust....was gonna case a few bullets, just for fun.... have plenty of reloading components - brass, primers, etc...
Why not use copper jackets and smokeless powder?? Teflon won't help, and it's nasty to they environment. Barrels last 20,000 rounds plus shooting paper. The point is to do it the way it was done in the 1870's-1900's. if I wanted it to be easy it would have been a 45-70 with jacketed bullets and smokeless.
Teflon tape can be used in muzzleloaders but the tape must be lubed after being placed on the bullet (this protects the bore from the Teflon). The Teflon tape isn't really a patch but it's a way to secure the bullet. Teflon tape will safely load a slightly undersized bullet without coming off the charge and comes off the bullet when fired but not quite unraveling. It's a seating lock not an actual patch.
Wives tail. I know two National champions hat have used Seth Cole paper for decades. 10's of thousands of rounds down the barrel with no ill effects. The myth of rag content paper is due to the fact that it was all that was available at the time. Wood pulp paper was very expensive and not used
You can paper patch anything as long as you get the proper undersized bullet. If you are having leading issues in a 38/357 the issue is most likely bullet size and hardness then it's lube quality.
@@kcstott I think it is bullet size compared to throat size. The throats are oversized enough that there is fall through clearances. Lube is HiTek coating, hardness I don't check but they are "cowboy". I was running them with 3gn of titegroup in 38sp and was still getting leading. I have read gas checks could be an answer as well but thats cost that I would rather not put into them since they would be costing as much or more to shoot than the plated I am now shooting. Thank you for your response.
I purchased a Pedersoli Quigley down under yesterday in 4570. My experience with paper patching has been with my .50 cal hawken ML and now I'm going to patch the same bullet you have for my 4570. Are your patches wrapping arouind your bullet twice? Do you use a gas check on the bullet base? I love your videos, please keep it up. Thank you.
I highly advise that you slug your barrel and chamber cast your chamber. Pedersoli's are notorious for sloppy chambers and oversized bore. It's not uncommon to find them with .460"-.462" groove diameter. So in all likelihood you will not be using that same bullet that i use. Paper does go around twice but does not overlap at the finish. This is the reason to have an accurate template. No gas check. The bullet is not healed for it and we are not using modern practices in these cartridges. and you don't need gas check untill you exceed 1500 fps anyway. These rounds I make would be recognised and trusted by any 1880's buffalo hunter or Creedmoor competitor.
Comments
Trash talkers be warned. You have no freedom of speech here. Keep it respectful or you will get your comment removed and you will be blocked. this is the one and only warning.
I know very little about this, but someone like you that shares his talent and know how helps us all. Thanks a lot GFR
Thanks for a great video on PP it helps explain things I can't find elsewhere .
Brilliant, helped with my 38/55 ,alternative to powder coating with undersized bullets, cheers
Very informative video and thank you, Kerry.
just came across your video today, its definitely going to help me with my new Pedersoli Gibbs rifle I just purchased. Thanks again!
I'm not sure how this is going to help out a muzzleloader, But what do it know. LOL. If you get some help from this Great and best of luck to you. I know next to nothing about the Gibbs rifle.It looks very similar to a Alexander Henry though.
I probably should have been more specific. Your "Paper Patch" techniques (Process) were helpful, since I'm going to start making a paper patch round for my new Gibbs Rifle!@@kcstott
Tucking the tail into the can make the end of the patch stick to the base of the bullet, i trim off the tail and basically have a ' Marlin ' style patch like you described. My finished patched bullet diameter is 1 to 2 thousands under bore diameter ( with black powder) and they shoot perfect.
Thanks I recently started paper patching for a 71 Mauser and your video was helpful
Very cool
I really enjoyed your video. I have been thinking about going with paper patch and your video was quite informative.
Thankyou very much for the kind words. Paper patch is a little pricy to get into but it does not suffer the issues of grease groove bullets.
Ive been doing this with my pedersoli sharps 45-90. I use a 540 gr paper patched cupped base bore riding bullet. My shiloh in 45-110 should be here in a few months.
Found your vid last night. Grateful for the careful explanation of PPB's. Using the same BACO .446 PP mold. Dropped 120 yesterday and will starting PP'ing this evening. Should share this on the Sharps forum. Well done and thx ...
I'm using gummed cigarette papers. Excellent results with my 1874 Sharps repro at 200 yds using the Lee 500gr.. Bore comes out shining like a mirror.
If it works for you but that's expensive. 500 sheets of Seth Cole 55W 8.5x11" is like $30 and will be enough paper to last you a life time.
Yeah, Nice video, detailed and helpful. I had a friend long ago that talked about using Onion skin for the paper....Didn't realize until now what he was describing....Thanks for the Info Kerry!
My pleasure Sir.
I patch as well for certain rounds, but with proper lead bhn and size, the bullet will obturate to barrel dimensions and wont lead your barrel. Great video!
I shoot grease groove bullets in my pistols. I will not shoot a grease groove in this rifle. and that's just my choice. Nothing against it just not for me.
How do you crimp them in the casing without destroying the wrap ? Or is it for black powder only
Doesn't matter if its smokeless or black powder, no crimp needed. and yes you can crimp them but since they are already very undersized to the typical bullet and case diameter the bullet seating/crimp die will not work well if at all. RCBS dies don't work. You can however use a 45 colt sizing die to apply a mild crimp but I caution you. it is very easy to ruin the paper.
You can also load a slightly smaller slug in a pinch
Correct. but if your lead is not of correct alloy it will not bump up and catch the rifling.
@@kcstott In Paul Mathews book The Paper jacket " you can size the bullets after you patch.
Hey! This solved a huge problem that I was having. I have a 30-06 pointed cast bullet that has a problem of being too small and tumbles. I think I can increase the bearing surface and get the adequate spin needed to stabilize it in flight. 🎉🎉🎉
I've never tried it, but what's the worst that could happen?
Isn't paper hard on the bore? My wife has a fit it i use her sewing scissors to cut paper. There must be something to it because the knife i use to open boxes must be sharpened frequently.
And you are using a very fine edge of steel to cut paper. I am not cutting paper with a fine edge of steel. Kitchen knives dull cutting tomatoes. I want you to think about something and don't take this as being condescending. The barrel used in this rifle is the same steel and type of barrel others use to shoot jacketed bullets with smokeless powder. So what's worse on a barrel? A thin piece of paper wrapped around a bullet that is .012" under groove size , or a copper jacketed bullet that is exactly groove diameter that has to deform to fit the bore?
If I was shooting jacketed bullets this barrel would be good for about 5-7K shots and I'm guessing at that number. While Kenny Wasserburger has well over 20K paper patched rounds fired in one barrel and the rifle has not shown any signs of reduced accuracy.
No the paper jacket in not hard on the barrel.
@@kcstott i have shot a few PP bullets in my Shiloh but have been reluctant to do so on a steady basis. I thought I would ask a machinist. Who else would know better? Thanks
Try Steve Garby or Mike Venturino's book on shooting black powder cartridge guns of the old west.
Yes, a grease cookie between a couple of .1000" card wads works wonders keep piwder fowling soft for strings of up to 10 shots before wiping the bore. I also use a news print punch wad over the primer for more even brisonance.l on the burn against the powdet column.
And use a drop tube for charging the cases.
I have those books, now While a grease cookie may work on a 45-70 they do not work on the 45-110. Well they do but they need to be .375" thick due to burning 104 grains of 1.5 F powder. Paper patch bullets require a clean dry bore to get the best accuracy. Yes you can get away with it for hunting but not for 1000yd competition. Yes I use a drop tube. Thank you but I'll stick with a Multiple National champion's technique on how to load the 45-110 for competition.
Rooster Jacket bullet film lube, Paper Patching Lube. > Apply lube to patches in advance and alloy to air-dry to a tough , flexible waterproof film. Buffalo arms sell it !
I have always applied it to the patch AFTER the paper patch dries and shrinks to the bullet. > it works good but i do most things back to front !
Never seen a need to lube a patched to bore bullet.
Fantástico muchas gracias
tenada
Nice video, could you put a boat tail on the bullet?🤔
Black powder bullets have to be flat base. If there was a boat tail the bullet would be gas cut and your accuracy would be shot. This is why we stack wads under the bullet to protect if from gas cutting.
@@kcstott thanks, the only black powder anything I've ever owned was a whitneyville replica, and I've never even held a muzzleloader, much less shot one 😎
You can burn your barrel using boat tail slugs with black powder
Any hear of someone trying patching shotgun slugs in a rifled barrel? I realize I will have to modify the mold.
Never heard of it but sure. it would work. Same principle applies, match the paper wrap thickness and bullet diameter to the bore or groove diameter which ever you decide to shoot,
You do need to lub the paper patched bullets. Both the paper itself, very lightly, and on top of the powder and the wad. In my experience the paper patch is in fact more accurate.
How many national championships have you won?? You do not need to lube the patch, while it will not hurt I've seen zero signs of it helping. I'm not going to add a step that does not contribute to speeding up th eprocess or making th egun more accurate.
Does it matter which direction the patch is wrapped around on the bullet ? Most barrels I have seen have a clockwise rifling twist.
A few books do claim that it does. The way I'm wrapping in the video is correct to Wrights book
@@kcstott Yes the idea is that the rifling unravels the patch so it will fall free the moment the bullet leaves the barrel
According to Mike Venturino (author on buffalo rifles of the old west) the finished wrapped paper patched buller can even be a thousands or two under bore diameter as it will still easily slugg up and the dirrection of the paper patch aplication doesn't matter. The rifling cuts the paper when the bullet leaves the muzzle. If you examine the paper patch remnants a few feey in front of your muzzle will prove that statement.
Hell, my custom mold from Mr. Steve Brooks measures out to .438 and when patched with 9 lbs clay free onion skin paper measures .448 inches. I also apply once dried a thin application of spg lube or Wonder lube to the paper befor loading and both seasons the bore and keeps subsequent shots fouling down and soft. This also tends to reduce the powder fouling ring that forms right at the forward end of the cartridge. A good idea for up to ten shots without swabbing the bore using only a blow tube to keep the black powder soft which enhances accuracy.
These Shiloh Sharps rifles have extremley tight chambers so they also recommend ( if compressing the powder charge) using a drop tube and seperate compression die before you seat the bullet. This technique is useful for both paper patch as well as grease groove bullets. Using the compression die removes any issue of bullet slump (deformation) which in Shiloh rifles will make the bullet unable to chamber.
Am interested in paper-patching to be able to use ultra - hard bullets w/o barrel wear. Also, accuracy with my cast rifle loads very poor. Pistol & shotgun much better.
There's just so much wrong with your statement I don't even know where to begin.
Cast bullets require a given hardness so the bullet will obdurate and grip the rifling. If your bullet is bore diameter & to hard it will not grip the rifling and will tumble on target. If your bullet is groove diameter it will just destroy the patch and lead the barrel. Barrel wear is not an issue with cast black powder loads. you could shoot a lifetime and not wear out the barrel As long as you kept it clean.
Paper patching will not allow you to use ultra hard bullets. you are not understanding the concept here at all. That and I have no idea why you think ultra hard bullets wear out barrels and somehow a paper patch is going to save your barrel.
Thanks for your reply. I haven't been able to shoot in some years - just no place available - so it is an abstract interest.... my casting, reloading equipment & guns are all gathering dust....was gonna case a few bullets, just for fun.... have plenty of reloading components - brass, primers, etc...
Back in the day they used cotton rag paper cuz thats all they had
Yeah seems only the rich could afford wood pulp paper. Wasn't very common
Why not use Teflon pipe tape ?
Why not use copper jackets and smokeless powder?? Teflon won't help, and it's nasty to they environment. Barrels last 20,000 rounds plus shooting paper. The point is to do it the way it was done in the 1870's-1900's. if I wanted it to be easy it would have been a 45-70 with jacketed bullets and smokeless.
Teflon tape can be used in muzzleloaders but the tape must be lubed after being placed on the bullet (this protects the bore from the Teflon). The Teflon tape isn't really a patch but it's a way to secure the bullet. Teflon tape will safely load a slightly undersized bullet without coming off the charge and comes off the bullet when fired but not quite unraveling. It's a seating lock not an actual patch.
Biggest benefit to paper patching is you're not leading your barrel
And that's the biggest reason I paper patch. I'll never shoot a BPCR and not paper patch.
Actually, you really should use paper with the most cotton you can find. At least 50%. The wood fiber based paper is not kind to the bore.
Wives tail. I know two National champions hat have used Seth Cole paper for decades. 10's of thousands of rounds down the barrel with no ill effects.
The myth of rag content paper is due to the fact that it was all that was available at the time. Wood pulp paper was very expensive and not used
I’m here because leading, I’m looking to see if anyone paperpatches 38sp/357mag.
You can paper patch anything as long as you get the proper undersized bullet.
If you are having leading issues in a 38/357 the issue is most likely bullet size and hardness then it's lube quality.
@@kcstott I think it is bullet size compared to throat size. The throats are oversized enough that there is fall through clearances.
Lube is HiTek coating, hardness I don't check but they are "cowboy".
I was running them with 3gn of titegroup in 38sp and was still getting leading.
I have read gas checks could be an answer as well but thats cost that I would rather not put into them since they would be costing as much or more to shoot than the plated I am now shooting.
Thank you for your response.
I purchased a Pedersoli Quigley down under yesterday in 4570. My experience with paper patching has been with my .50 cal hawken ML and now I'm going to patch the same bullet you have for my 4570. Are your patches wrapping arouind your bullet twice? Do you use a gas check on the bullet base? I love your videos, please keep it up. Thank you.
I highly advise that you slug your barrel and chamber cast your chamber. Pedersoli's are notorious for sloppy chambers and oversized bore. It's not uncommon to find them with .460"-.462" groove diameter.
So in all likelihood you will not be using that same bullet that i use.
Paper does go around twice but does not overlap at the finish. This is the reason to have an accurate template.
No gas check. The bullet is not healed for it and we are not using modern practices in these cartridges. and you don't need gas check untill you exceed 1500 fps anyway. These rounds I make would be recognised and trusted by any 1880's buffalo hunter or Creedmoor competitor.