Full charge 45-120 Sharps straight cartridge: external and terminal ballistics
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- Опубликовано: 2 авг 2024
- This video is an addition to the film I made about the Pedersoli 1874 Sharps rifle chambered for the 45-120 cartridge. In this chapter we'll go through the basics of wound ballistics while we check the trajectory of the bullet propelled with a full load of 120 grains of black powder, and we check its terminal (wound) ballistics effect in ballistic gelatin.
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Wound ballistics: • Deadly Effects: Wound ...
Chapters:
0:00 Intro
1:04 The basics of wound ballistics
3:00 The permanent cavity
4:24 The temporary cavity, the cavitation
5:40 Effect of the sonic pressure wave
7:10 What we need for an ethical shot?
9:07 External ballistics and the BC of the bullet
10:26 Calculating the BC of a bullet
11:51 The external ballistics of the 45-120 round
16:07 Terminal (wound ballistics) of the 45-120 round
19:00 Comparison of the 45-120 cartridge to the effect of the 8x57 JRS modern hunting round 
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Please ask your questions under this comment,
I have never seen you fire hollow point projectiles from the 45-?? family of cartridges. How impactful is that hollow tip shape to the accuracy of the sharps at various ranges? I wonder if a hollow point, at the 1-20 tin-lead allow will perform well considering the added penetration from the hardness.
What are your thoughts on the use of alloys that include antimony?
when I was a young boy, my cousin had a high velocity air rifle, and if we shot soft lead pellets, they would disintegrate without hitting the target. we always assumed it happened outside of the barrel, because of the supersonic velocity and the soft lead. Is that the correct assumption or does the pellet come apart before it even leaves the barrel?
I assume something similar would happen above 500 m/s like you mentioned in the video
@@davidcahill4670 Hi David, I do use hollow point bullets from 1:30 and 1:20 alloy for my 45-90 1886 Winchester. I also have a hunting round for the Sharps. It is just perfect for European big game. I use Lyman's hollow point 45-70 bullet. Antimony is usually not liked by casters. Tin alloy more uniformly with lead.
great Video ❤! I would love to know how this cartridge compares to the 50-100-450 WCF in the Winchester 1886....
Why are you so awesome and amazing?
I use to have a Pedersoli 45-120. Mine had a full octagonal barrel. It was the Quigley gun. Very beautiful rifle. I bought it to hunt moose with, but the Iraq war started and for the next 10 years I was part of it. I was using 535 grain bullets and they kick like a mule. Good video, thanks you to make it.
Imagine some guy up on a hill, shooting his PKM at you from 2599 meters away, when...PLOP.
Sorry, it's not a real Quigley. Only those made by Shiloh are.
It is always good to remind people that 10% ballistic gelatin is less about accurately representing human tissue, but better understood as a repeatable scientific medium with which to extrapolate some data about potential tissue damage.
There are much superior custom-made dummies that set fresh raw bones in ballistic gel with surrogate fluid-filled organs, rubbery tendons, air filled lungs, etc. "Spare no expense" type stuff like you'd sell to a medical college. There's a famous brand name but I can't recall it at the moment. They were >$1500 apiece when I last checked, so I suspect they are entirely intended for government and corporate research ballisticians.
The things we know, we picked up over time. The FBI's 12-18 inches of penetration through clothing standard came after a series of bloody shoot-outs revealed that the .38 Special was in fact a marginal cartridge - sometimes it went deep enough, sometimes not. Sometimes the hollowpoints expanded, sometimes they didn't. It didn't like sheet steel car bodies, and the hollow points failed more often in winter due to having to penetrate multiple layers of cloth and denim before hitting flesh.
Today we know that velocity is king, and rapid controlled bullet destabilization (after a chosen level of penetration) is the mission. A 5.56 or 7.62mm rifle bullet which penetrates into and then destabilizes inside the thoracic cavity will instantly kill a human basically 100% of the time - the supersonic shockwave suddenly exploded inside that delicate sealed bag bounces off the back of the ribs and ruptures both lungs and generally stops the heart and rips the aorta and vena cava off even if the permanent wound channel doesn't hit it directly. This is why there is such an emphasis on "center mass" for human targets - if the bullet works as designed, it is an instant humane kill.
There is a very good book “The 45/70 At Two Miles”. It’s about the testing the U.S. Army did before making it the official cartridge of the Army. It goes into detail about the elevation requirement and time of travel. It’s online so easy to find.
That's a very good source. I've been using it.
thank you I will get that book
usarmorment.com/pdf/4570a.pdf
Nothing can be obsolete as long as it works sufficiently for the job. And this shows it perfectly. As every time an excellent researched and explained video, thank you for your work.
This video of extremely informative and well researched too. When you touched on the account of soldiers not feeling the pain of being shot initially it did make me think back to everyone I have ever talked to who has been shot, each and every single one describes the feeling of the impact first and foremost.
Also, having shot a 45-70 I can already feel the pain in my shoulder just at the thought of shooting a 45-120!
Excellent. Thank you for clarifying terminal effects, in a day when so much attention is put on "energy factors" and "shockwave stretch cavities." It's interesting how so many contemporary enthusiasts believe antiquated cartridges and projectiles are "ineffective" by simple factor of being antiquated, as if ballistic understanding is only a factor of the last 50 years of science. While there has been much advancement in projectile and firearm capability, the same exact ballistic factors are required to perform the same exact task. The beloved .45-70 today with smokeless powders and strong firearms delivers very similar performance as the black powder .45-120 from very heavy, long-barrel rifles of old. There's something extremely versatile about the .458 caliber.
Hervorragend erklärt, top! 👍
Die Leistung solch einer historischen Waffe sind beeindruckend.
As usual, an interesting and informative presentation. A bison is a tough and hearty beast as are the large bears on the North American continent. The 45-120 Sharps is up to the challenge.
Shooting that cartridge out of a heavy buffalo gun looks like it hurts. Imagine it in a rifle that you'd carry in bear country.
The 45-120/ 450BPE was the 30-06 of its time. The 500BPE/ 50-140 was the more powerful British round that was then adopted by Sharps and American buffalo runners
@@pamtnman1515 an important distinction to note is, the .45-110 and the .50-120 we're almost exclusively commercial hunting cartridges used only for that purpose. Average Joe the homesteader wasn't about to go to that expense just to shoot a deer, thus, the rarity of these big rifles. Punt guns existed too, but had nothing like the popularity of a common cartridge like the .30-06.
@@dangvorbei5304 yeah, I also think the odd cartridges like 45-90, 45-100, 45-110 were likely specially stocked in gun shops as something to fit smaller people.
Another good book on wounds to the body was done by Colonel Hatcher , it was called “Hatcher‘s notebook” back in the 1900s 1920s also US Army
I have the identical rifle and chambering so this was a very welcome addition to my knowledge base. Thanks for doing this excellent presentation.
Do you have a source for a few rounds of brass? I have a 45-120 but no ammunition or brass
Fascinating content, thank you for having prepared it patiently for us!
Very well done, I particularly like the closing words.
Accuracy is everything.
So many Capandball uploads, I'm loving it
Very nice to see this kind of information for these older guns
Very interesting, I remember alot about balistic performance from dad and all his hunting he would tell me about, and you built on it.
This was an informative and relaxing start to my work day.
This is awesome. Thanks CapandBall
your videos are always so interesting never fail to deliver!
As always an exceptionally good video. Very educational and basic information transfer.
Thank you!
According to SPG Black Powder Cartridge Reloading Primer book the history of the 45-120 is hard to pinpoint. I've read where the late Elmer Kieth had brass that was headstamped from the Original Sharps rifle company for the 45-120. I feel that some rifles were rechambered for the simple fact that some big game hunters wanted flatter shooting and more stopping power such as the case is today. Other observations may very.
This has nothing to do with buffalo rifles, but there's a certain dog who clearly wants to expand his YT presence.
Kamilla. :) 50% sharpei, 50% labrador. And always in the focus. :)
I would like to interject here, "This "dog" don't hunt."
@@CameronMcCreary The only thing my dogs hunt are whatever I'm eating at the time.
It's interesting to those of us who load and shoot paper patched 45-120 rounds. Basically it's all about the composition of the lead bullet you cast and swage. Too soft and it expands too much and doesn't penetrate. Too hard and it doesn't expand at all. It also depends on the average distance you are shooting at and the remaining velocity at that point. That said, the 8x57 does just fine on elk, moose and bison with proper modern hunting bullets.
@@0529mpb For sure. C&B makes these skills accessible to people who want to move beyond admiration and into enjoyment of these disciplines. A good dog adds to the experience, though.
I really enjoy all your videos sir. It is like going back in time, they are so relax, thanks.
I learned a lot today, thank you for this excellent video (and also the linked ones)
It is wonderful to see a young man appreciate the importance of so called obsolete firearms. He is a true firearms expert in his field. Bravo!
Mark ans Sam are pushing a modern loading out past 3,000 yards currently. Pretty cool to see
Bloody hell taht cartridge is huge.
I can tell you that when I got shot 3 times, I felt it - severe pain immediately. It reacts differently on each individual. That rifle kicks like a big Mule when the slow motion shot is displayed. The 8x57 round is excellent also, just not on Buffalo.
Yes, the 8x57 is a very good hunting cartridge for all European big game.
@@capandball With European ammunition anyway. Here in the US a lot of 8x57 rifles were surplus military rifles of various ages, some with the older .318" diameter bore and some with the newer .323" diameter, and American hunters knew nothing of this difference. Firing a full-power large diameter cartridge in an older gun with the smaller bore would have been disastrous, so ammo for the US market is a very soft bullet fired at a much lower pressure. This way the soft bullet will compress down to whatever the bore diameter is and still not produce enough pressure to destroy an old gun, but the end result is a disappointingly low velocity and often poor accuracy.
It's the same reason that US manufacturers used to make special high-velocity smokeless loadings for some vintage cartridges in newer firearms, but then had to stop because some people insisted on loading whatever would fit into whatever ancient gun they had.
1 hell of a history lesson loved it 👍👍
Use a semi flat point and it is amazing. Thanks for the content.
I love this gentleman's accent and impecable firearm knowledge. Gary from Montana.
I agree with you 100 percent I have been hunting for 40 years and you are completely correct sir
Excellent video!!
Tom Selleck used a Sharps chambered for 45-110 when he filmed Quigley Down Under. You use a 45-120 so to say that I'm impressed is an understatement.
If you will place a 3 to 4 inch thick foam pad under the gelatin block, it will stay in place without bouncing all over everything and you won't need a retaining frame.
Awesome!
Great videos
I need this going to be good since the moment I saw the gun!
an interesting and informative presentation.👍👍👍👍👌👌
Dr Fackler, that's a very familiar name. I used to study him when I was younger, especially his hypothesis on temporary vs permanent wound cavitaties
Thanks for sharing. Your definitely not wrong, fat n slow can still put on the table. Ive been telling that to people for years. I love my 45-110 Sharps and both of my 45-70 trapdoors. Bullet selection is always key.
Thank you for doing the imperial conversions.
Brilliant article, Dr Németh. A lot hard [and painful] work to produce the results, no doubt. :=)
If you have a swage press, try making the first half of the bullet with pure lead and the second half with your blend of tin. This will keep the bullet from deforming until penetration. It's been a while since I was shooting, but this was the choice in my Shiloh Sharps 45/110.
I am glad you mentioned the subject of pain as an aspect of wound ballistics. When I was working in law enforcement I read thousands of shooting reports and studied the effects of various type of ammunition. What I eventually noticed is what you mentioned about the wounded individual not feeling the pain until after the shooting was over. This WA true for anyone shot by a projectile under fourth caliber in size. However, when an individual was struck by a bullet of fourth caliber or bigger the individual felt it emediatly!
Thanks!
Many thanks for your support!
PBS is presently showing Ken Burns' latest documentary series. It's about the North American Bison.
My favourite i shoot both smokless and black powder using 625gn projectiles when using black powder and 550gn when using smokless powder
The 45-120, I/e .45-3 1/4”, was NEVER a Sharps factory offering, and it was introduced to late to have been used in the slaughter of the American Bison.
You speak Hunglish very well ... If I had one of those I would need to have the Quigley Down Under gun. Exact replica.
I'm not trying to be critical, but the original Sharps Rifle Company never chambered their rifles in 45-120. They did chamber their rifles in the 45-110 caliber. Now you can load a compressed load with paper patched bullets to use 120 grain charge of black powder. By seating the bullet out a bit.
If you need a cartridge holder (belt slip style) I have a pattern worked up for a 10 round belt slip.
Jó videóitok vannak,csak így tovább!
Esetleg magyarul/felirattal még jobban tetszene:)
Ive heard larger diameter bullets create cavitation at lower velocity than smaller ones. It would be interesting to see small, and large bullets fired in gel at the same velocity and see if the larger one has more cavitation relative to its diameter than the smaller one.
Shot a sharps with this black powder load. Kinda like making a 7mm feel like a 22lr. I was using a500gr. Louverin pellet.
Golden Earrings, "When the bullet hits the bone "
At 19:44 one can see the effects of the bullet as the table becomes destroyed.
Where in the title is there a mention of buffalo rifles? This is about the ballistics of the 45-120 cartridge.
Love your videos! Your rifle is on my list as my next gun. Have you experimented with different loads for accuracy? Do you think the 120 to be accurate to 30 consecutive shots in competition?
I've owned several 45/70 but none of the bigger ones like 45/110 and 45/120. I do load cast bullets in and bolt action 458 win mag. Witch I guess could be and modern equal to the 45/120. Nothing is as fun as shooting big heavy cast bullets even though there slow. I'm loading mine with unique to about 1050/1100fps.
And reloader7 can get you up to 1900fps Ish if I powder coat the bullets. I have watched Quigley down under and becoming him is a bucket list of mine. Nothing would be better than smacking the steel plate at 1000 yards with iron sights or to attempt one of the matches...
Jumped from Buffalo straight to Elephants !!!
A bisons metabolism is extremely slow and even a direct heart shot can leave the animal still standing sad but true they are similar to turtles, neck shots at closer ranges improved anchoring the beast for easy recovery or like many people did was multiple shots for a fast bleed out, thank you for another great video cap and ball I love them all Joe.
An exit wound would be ideal in that case but I don't know if that round could do it in a bison.
They drop just fine and quick with a well placed shot. Seen it dozens of times.
Para aquellos años era un Cartuchon y creo que si estuviera hoy sería lo mismo que un 375 holland&holland. Bárbaro.❤❤❤❤
I have a Sharps clone in 50-140, I have had it for about 22 years. I reload my own, but I would like to know where you got your primer tool. I press mine in with a modified C-clamp, so, where can i find the tool that you use ? Sure, would make life a little easier. And do you have the problem with the cases swelling, I have some ones that I reloaded a few years ago and they are too tight in the bore. Should I fine sand them until they fit, or un-load them and sand them a little ? Or try and get new cases, which are very pricey.
That did NOT look like a black powder round to me. Impressive.
Oddly enough Al Jason also ran a paintball field in the 1980's :)
You should come to America and schedule a bison hunt. There are ranches in Oklahoma, Colorado, Kansas, Utah and Wyoming where you could do this.
On the bucket list!
i like how he says bison. " the bizon "
👍😊
Been wondering where the line is with modern powders ???
Beyond Quigley.
I thought you were packing a cigar into your rifle for a minute.
That other single shot you use at 19:29 looks like my personal Blaser K 77 Ultra Light or is it a Merkel K2? Also my thought on the 8x57IRS is, that the combination of that projectile with the modern powders is certainly not ideal for bison. These cheap cup and core bullets expand too much and lack penetration, especially on the tough shoulder tissue of a bison. A heavy Nosler Partition or Barnes TSX would be my choice for bison and I believe that the sharp deformed front ends will cause more severe tissue damage at over 2200 ft/sec in addition to sufficient penetration, even at the largest bulls. I also hunt with a cal.54 Browning Mountain rifle which with its certified for up to a 150 grain FFG load behind a 450 grain hard cast bullets. It kicks like a mule and I am sure it would penetrate through a buffalo bull. So far I was only able to test it on large bull moose. Great video as always, thanks!
Hi, it is a Krieghoff Hubertus.
Great video! I love the 45-120, I have a modern copy that I load with smokeless ammunition. 300 grain bullets at 2850 fps... light and fast I know but the paper dies the same 😂.
You are shooting the 450 Nitro Express at 2850 fps! 😳 I have never heard of this kind of velocity before. What powder are you using?
Do you have any extra brass you can share or sell. I have a 45-120 with no ammunition.
@@longtimepittsowner5589
Try 450 Nitro Express brass. If it’s not exactly the same, it should be close enough to shape with the loading press and dies
@@pamtnman1515 Great news
I’ll look for 450 Nitro Express brass!
Thanks!
@@longtimepittsowner5589
The British .450 Black Powder Express was the 30-06 of its time, basically 1870-1899. The same cartridge became known as the 45-120 in America. Fireform some of your new brass and see if it doesn’t perfectly fit your gun’s chamber. Are you using black or smokeless powder?
So where do you find 45-120 shells? I can find rifles but no brass or ammunition anyplace?
That's a big rifle
I built a 45-150 mz used 3f powder 385 buffalos,was devastating.
The buffalo hunters used the .50/ 3 inch. They called the .45/120 a needle gun because the long bullet resembled a needle.
I'll still stick with my 45-120 for bison. Speaking of which, I'm booking a bison hunt with Mt Sharp's for next year. 😁
Do you have any extra 45-120 brass you could part with? or a source ? I have a 45-120 but no brass shells to load
@@longtimepittsowner5589 I've been using the same 3 boxes for over 15 years. However if you're in the U.S., You can call Buffalo Arms in Idaho & they often have the loaded ammunition. I couldn't tell you how much at this moment because I haven't had to buy it in a long time. I expect I will within a couple years though. Don't know how many more loads I'll get on this brass.
Please wear eye protection while shooting, the Sharps sight flipped backwards and the scope recoiled backwards almost to your eye. Interestingly, I just watched the Cinnabar channel prior to yours and he fired a 50-140 cartridge and his shot was low and destroyed the frame holding the gelatin just like yours did. Was your shot low?
And with soft cast or hollow point bullets ???
Both rounds cleared the gelatin block, so 8x57 would also be perfectly adequate for taking big game.
For European big game yes, I agree.
@@capandball there was a famous elephant hunter who killed 800 of them using a rifle chambered in 7x57 mm Mauser, with heavy round nosed bullets, which were the original, early 1890s load. FMJ bullets don't expand and also round nosed ones have less of a tendency to tumble than spitzer, due to the fact the center of gravity is closer to the front of the bullet, where the forces are exerted so that bullet could just go trough meters of flesh in a straight line.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._D._M._Bell
When armies switched from round nosed to spitzer bullets at the start of the 20th century, in order to improve both internal ballistics - less bearing surface - and external one - better aerodynamics - it also had a large impact on terminal ballistics, since the new bullets tended to violently tumble tip to bottom when hitting flesh, and also lighter jacketed ones fragmented. Instead of a small 6.5-8 mm wide permanent cavity and the bullet shedding relatively little energy inside the body, one would find a 20-30 mm jagged gouge and almost all energy dumped inside the body.
Interesting how the ballistic performance is identical or slightly surpassed by modern 45-70. While outside the scope of your channel the FTX style bullets allow for significant improvements in point blank performance along with downrange energy. Still a very useful hunting cartridge with extreme versatility.
Maybe place a piece of heavy leather on the front of the gel block to simulate the hide and see what that does to the penetration of both rounds.
The density of gels is usuqlly set to include the skin also in the avarage picture.
@@capandball I wonder how well the gel includes it as it was said that there is distinct jump in properties and penetration when passing through the skin and then internal cavity of the body. And i.e thanks to elasticity of the skin bullet below certain threshold will likely by found on the opposite side of the body under the skin. While it would be still able to penetrate thicker body, it is unable to get through the skin layer
2F powder?
Lyman manual says max load of 90 grains 3F and 110 grains 2F for 54 cal. slow twist round ball.
Algorithm Engagement Comment.
I have to say such things so that the algorithm will share this video with other people!
Another consideration for hunting game is how much meat will be destroyed. Modern high velocity cartridges can destroy an entire shoulder or haunch leaving the meat blood shot and inedible, while the older black powder cartridges such as the 45-70 and including the 45-120 will conserve the meat, leaving it edible all the way up to the wound channel. This is an important consideration for meat hunters.
You have obviously never the the shock caused from an archery equipment. In fact your whole comment sounds like someone that has never hunted anything
Any “Mark + Sam After Work” fans here…? iykyk…🤝
1:33 I think we have the same microwave.
This cartridge did not come out until most of the bison were gone.
Yes, please chexk my film about its history.
Remember it comes down to shocking power and penetration ..In Canada the minimum kinetic energy to kill from shock for a white tailed deer is at 850ftlbs at point of impact .So you have to know properties of your bullet at distance and the game you are hunting ..
Hurts doesn't it?
Big kartoos 😮
Sounds Painful to me !!!
Especially if it can ???
Can it handle modern smokless
Powder !!!
The 45-120 Sharps started its life as the .450 BPE (Black Powder Express) in Britain.
Please let me know the source for this. The 45-120 is not an express cartridge. 45-90 started as an express cartridge, Winchester's 45-125 was an express cartridge.
@@capandball The 45-120 is exactly the same shell as the 450 BPE (black powder express), which became the 450 NE (nitro express) after smokeless powder. One of the books on the history of sporting arms cartridges will have this information. Right now i am at my hunting cabin, far away from my gun library, or I would get you exactly what you want. The black powder era was the most creative time for gun making, especially the 1880s. Different rifling types, different ignitions, new steels and greatly improved beautiful Damascus barrels, improved reloading tools and gun cases so sportsmen could take their rifle anywhere and make their own ammunition, etc. The explosion in different cartridges by this time was incredible, and many if not all were the result of British firms making their own unique, proprietary rounds. Holland & Holland, Purdey, Alex Henry to name a few were highly productive in this area. When I return home, hopefully with a buck, I’ll respond to your question more directly. I like your videos, I really appreciate the work you put in, and I am thankful for the positive face you put on black powder and antique firearms. Way too many people have “magnumitis” and want to hunt with far over powered firearms, which causes meat loss and an erosion of hunting skills. You are showing these people they can have fun and give wildlife a sporting chance.
George Hoyem, Volume III@@capandball
@@pamtnman1515 Thanks, I have one from George Hoyem, but that's only paper cartridges.
@@capandballyou definitely want volume III. It has almost all the brass cartridges starting in the 1860s. You can plot the development of brass cartridges pretty well. I found one error in it that I corrected in my last Double Gun Journal article in 2022. Turns out the .375 2-1/2” Flanged bullets came in an array of diameters. From .370 to .375. I bought a large number of different .375 cartridges and found the average diameter was .373, which is logically why the caliber was often called the .370 …. Anyhow, this story provides insight into the development of early brass cartridges. All over the place.
Hi mate I'm from poland but I live in australia for last 40 years my biggest hunting rifle is marlin 1895 in 45-70 .Big cartrigges like 45-90 are rare even in america as far as I know but 45-120?Those loads are simply not listed in australia but I'm afraid that brass for them wil cost a fortune.Where are you buying them from? cheers
Hi, the bras is available in Europe, but you have to wait to get it. But it's not impossible.
I have never had a problem getting brass for 45-120 (3 1/4") it is/was available from Bertram in Australia, and Norma, and my cases have been in use for many shots over 15 years. So in the end they are not as expensive as people say, stay safe! Chris B.
Gargantuan cartridge, I won’t be buying one anytime soon as with the price of Swiss in the uk at £104 a tub and I only use 60 grns in my 45-70 and 30 in my 1892 Winchester antique.😊
torpedoes
In short, DONT GET SHOT. . . followed by blah blah bbbbllaaawwwwwwhhhhhhhhhhhheh
tres interressant
just a very tragic Episode in History... Buffalos were nearly eradicated to take the food and ressources away from the natives
Bla bla bla no action