I was never opposed to the idea of Batgirl having a crush on her mentor, but the fixation Bruce Tim has on trying to make them an official couple is just weird.
Still not a fan of the ship. Especially with the scene of Bruce talking about "how much she has grown". That's creepy especially in the context that he will go onto date her
Bruce was putting on a show as the billionaire playboy who is friends with Commissioner Gordon. Batman isn't the type of person who would REALLY say that to a young woman he'd known as a teenager, and you won't find him talking like that anywhere else except when he's wearing his "Bruce Wayne" mask. It's weird with the context of hindsight I guess, but it's not like he knew they'd go on to date anyway.
@@AbjectPermanence That doesn't change the fact that it's weird. Just because he had his mask on doesn't mean it's something weird and uncomfortable to say to someone who in the context of the show has a crush on you and you will (even unknown to you) that you would eventually date. It reminds me of Woody Allen who married his stepdaughter. (I know this isn't an exact copy but it is one of the first things that pops into my head when I think jof the context of the Bruce and Barbara relationship storyline)
BARABARA IS JIM'S NIECE/ADOPTED DAUGHTER not JIM's BIRTH/BIOLOGICAL DAUGHTER BRUCE TREATS BARBARA LIKE AN EMPLOYEE, BARBARA DEVELOPS FEELINGS for BRUCE and throw herself om onto BRUCE
@@dektran4843 We don't know if she is his niece or his daughter in Batman the animated series due to Scott Snyder writing the backstory in which Babs is Gordon's niece being written post when the animated series actually aired and Bruce Timm never stating this as fact in his canon
MLPFiMBrony2232 yeah and in Paradise lost she saw a vase in a museum and congratulated the artist like she knew them. She also knew the statue in Harv Hickman’s house was a Roman copy, either meaning she just has a good eye for true Greek art or that, again, she was around to see the original.
Batman: Sorry, Barbara has been my sidekick for a while now. Gordon: Well, that does make me angry that you lied to me, but she's her own person. I'll give it a pass. Batman: I also f*cked her, Jim. *The events of Over the Edge happen but in real life*
It will forever be fucked up considering their first interaction reads like a student-teacher type relationship with Bruce commenting on how much she's grown and looking back after finding out what happens between them is just disgusting. You can humanize and give Batman flaws without it being abhorrent.
Ok, since no one is pointing it out, here it is: even ignoring it's his friend's daughter, and ignoring that she's half his age, she dated his son first. This "ship" is creepy no matter how you put it.
The Bruce/Babs thing is what I consider to be Bruce’s 2nd biggest mistake after what happened to Tim. But, considering how much of a hermit he becomes in Beyond, I accept it. The truth is, having Bruce and Babs stop talking to each other because of a immoral relationship is better than just killing Babs off for the sake of making old Bruce a loner.
@@brandonosborne6894 immoral in the sense that, his partner, his "son" was dating her. Do you want your dad dating your ex girlfriend? It's about respecting boundaries. Barbara and Bruce did was disrespectful towards Dick's feelings. At the same time, Barbara should not have dated Dick at all as she helped to form another wedge in an already Rocky father-son relationship. If the spent less time of rooftop and more time with Leslie Tompkins, perhaps they could have avoided the unpleasantness all together.
@@falleneldor I also like point out that even if the Titans existed in the dcau and Dick and Kory (Starfire) were dating Bruce and Barbara being together would be very very very weird and uncomfortable especially if dick introduces Starfire to Bruce and Barbara that would be very very uncomfortable.
@The Panel Biter Batcat or Wonderbat should have been the relationships that they should have focused on I mean come on it's the writers fault that batcat and Wonderbat didn't happen in the dcau I mean come on Bruce being in a relationship with Catwoman that makes sense Bruce be in a relationship with Wonder woman that makes sense heck even Bruce being in a relationship with Zatana make sense even Bruce and Talia al ghul makes more sense any of these relationships are ten times better Then the Brucebabs ship
Learning their ages during the DCAU version of the relationship does make it a little less creepy, but WOW they need to update Barbara and Tim's character models if they're supposed to be 30 and 18 in modern DCAU stuff. Also despite that I can't help but feel a lot of the creepiness of the relationship comes from Bruce knowing Barbara while she was still a minor, then her patterning herself off him, which feels like it could be seen as grooming. Really the real revelation here is how short Dick and Babs relationship was. As I said in the Epilogue video, Dick Grayson is the continually most mishandled character in all the DCAU.
It's not weird in my opinion it's like if you were an artist when you are a teenager inspired by another artist who you had some sort of online friendship/ mentorship with when her or him, and then when you eventually grew up y'all started dating. Mind you there was no grooming involved in the example
Batman slept with his old student, the daughter of one of his closest longtime friends, who also happens to be his son’s ex-girlfriend, and therefore could have been his daughter-in-law if things were a little different (as basically proven by other timelines), all in a scene that was just kinda forced into a classic storyline straight from the comics. I get that they were trying to raise the stakes and make it seem like Batman was more invested in her than he should have been, but something about that doesn’t quite feel right to me. As a fan of the original Killing Joke, it feels like an unnecessary change to the entire story that comes across as extremely awkward and makes Batman kinda look like a creep. It distracts from the satisfaction of seeing this famous comic come to life. We shouldn’t have to analyze the timeline and ask the creators about their intentions and make clarifications about differences between continuities in order to try to justify this, and then still feel weird about this version of Batman whenever we think about this film.
It doesn’t matter if Dick and Barbara’s relationship lasted for a day or a decade, *any* woman your son has ever been involved with is OFF LIMITS. You shouldn’t even date women that your friends have been with, let alone your own adopted son.
@miles Morales Bruce legally adopted Richard. Bruce raised him, trained him, sheltered him ever since his parents died. Even if their relationship doesn’t have the usual (or healthy in some cases) father-son feeling, Bruce will always be Richards adopted father
@miles Morales Whatever age Richard was when Bruce adopted him DOESN’T MATTER. Richard is still Bruce’s adopted legal son and even if you take the age gap out of the equation there’s still the fact that the ship is awful
@miles Morales that movie only gets a ‘whatever pass’ since 1. They’re around the same age while Richard was a young teenager and 2. They don’t even get together in the end
All else aside, the plot point of their being together was just plain unnecessary. It doesn’t add anything or further Bruce as a character. All it does is make us feel uncomfortable and kind of icky. Batman as a character in this universe is shown to be stubborn and single minded. He’s not above keeping secrets or manipulating people. But he’s also shown that the reasons for this is that he cares _very_ deeply about others, such as people that are disadvantaged or downtrodden, his friends and teammates and especially the members of his found family. He’s the type of person to sacrifice his own happiness again and again for the sake of others. So age gaps aside, the idea of him dating the daughter of a close friend and the former lover of his adopted son, knowing how deeply that would hurt and alienate them, just feels antithetical to his character. It’s against everything we associate with Batman. He might alienate people for the sake of the mission, for a play to save or protect the common people, sure. But for his own selfish gratification in what is likely to only ever be a short lived fling? That’s just not the Batman I’ve come to know.
Bruce x Barbara is like asking if Batman should kill... It may be an interesting avenue to explore, but when the property is at its most definitive, that would never happen.
Most bat-ships are weird. Keeping things with the bats is kinda gross. Maybe if their first anthology series (other than Detective Comics) hadn't been called Batman Family.
I could have done without it in the DCAU. It really makes it hard for me to watch DCAU Batman stuff. I view Batman and Batgirl as a teacher/student relationship and as someone in education, it just feels too taboo for me. Coupling that with Babs' father being one of Batman's closet allies and dare say friends, doesn't help either. I mean there isn't anything technically wrong with it but it just makes it difficult to watch DCAU Batman films and shows now. Edit: I see, instead of a counter-argument, you all go for personal attacks and internet buzzwords that have lost all meaning? Got to love the irony of you folks getting "triggered" over point of view that they think you're actually upset about. So we are snowflakes and lunatics because we have an opinion on a cartoon plot point? Even though the video asked its viewers for their opinion, Yet you all still got mad about it?
The DCAU Bruce Wayne is admirable and one of the best iterations of the character but the throwaway line about him and Barbara stands out for a lot of reasons. He's her mentor and considerably older and she essentially dated his son (and in the Lost Years Dick implies he hoped to propose to Barbara before he found out she was Batgirl). It's not even a line that strengthens the story of Batman Beyond, so I personally just try to ignore it.
Mardon NaLou Honestly, I loves JL and JLU as a kid. But I don’t know if I want to watch BtAS due to the Bruce/Barbara thing. Especially since Dick Grayson is my favorite superhero ever and Dick/Babs is my otp. It’s just too weird for me.
@@Nightman221k Dick Grayson deserved better like Starfire I hated how to DCAU completely screwed him over there's no justification to how Dick Grayson got screwed over in the DCAU I mean they could have at least introduce Starfire and the rest of the Titans heck they could have introduced Donna Troy and have her be in a relationship with dick considering wonderbat didn't happen (even though it should have) WonderGrayson would have been the next best thing Dick Grayson X Donna Troy at least Dick got treated better in Young Justice (Nightwing X zatanna) and teen Titans (Robin X Starfire)
My problem isn't with the two dating. As you said, Bruce and Barbara are rational adults by the time they start dating. My problem is with how it ended: with Bruce ruining Dick and Barbara's engagement by getting the girl his son was dating pregnant. That just doesn't feel like something Batman would do.
I will never like this relationship. I see it as a teacher\student, the deau does it in a subtle way that I appreciate because you can just not think about it.
The only reason I could maybe get behind it is bc i kinda like the idea of Batman being a scumbag in his personal life. It kinda adds a decent amount of depth that even though Batman is trying to be a hero he’s still a fucked up guy
I agree that I like Bruce and Barbara as "that thing that exists but never should have been". It’s also a good example of audiences reacting to a problem with a narrative, but not quite knowing how to articulate it. Obviously, you’re not supposed to like the hookup from The Killing Joke, but people often cite that as an issue with the movie itself. I think that what really struck people about that was how it felt just kind of… shoved in there. That sex scene existed purely for the sake of added shock value and a fruitless attempt to raise the emotional stakes. Most people don’t overthink straight to video animated film scripts like I do, so all that they usually have to say about it is “EEEWWWWW bad ship”. To quote Mr. Plinkett: “You might not have noticed… but your brain did.”
Alex Davis What about it implies that you’re not supposed to like it? It just seems like a another reason for Batman to go after Joker. A fridgeing situation
No the problem eveyone has with that scene is that it was a cheap way to show flaws in a character and it also always seems like Bruce Timm is trying to force the relationship into everything he creates. I always thought that scene would have had a greater impact if Batman pushed her off and rejected her as it would have shown Barbara the reality of being Batgirl, that it wasn't all how she expected it to be. Barbara was chasing a fantasy, the whole reason of her wanting to be Batgirl was all about the thrill of it, the popularity, and to get into Batman's pants.
The age difference is always less important than being Barbara's mentor/boss and adopted father of her ex. Barbara is always either aged up or de-aged to pair with people.
I mean, she has a doctorate. The cartoon actually aged her down to pair her with Dick, and only starting with the Mr. Freeze movie. You have to remember, when B:TAS first aired, Dick had been out of Gotham for the most part for the previous 12 years. He was actually in space when Jason died; conversely, Bruce was busy recovering from Bane when he was supposed to be married. Bruce Timm and Paul Dini literally had no idea what to do with him. (Though to be fair, neither did Marv Wolfman, judging by early 90s Teen Titans.) So, he always felt like the weakest link of Batman: The Animated Series.
9:07 with them using the old models, Terry is imagining the story and he knows how they looked when Barbra was in her 20s and Tim in his early teens. The costume for Tim in the display case is too small for a college kid and Bruce being Bruce there probably isn’t many photos of the Bat Family after JL/JLU. That’s just me though.
Have definitely brought this up in a past video, the “so and so is being told a story and imagines it this way” works very well for this flashback and others.
I don't argue that it couldn't happen or that it's implausible that it could; but I really prefer to ignore this couple happening. Bruce being intimate with Barbara seems so needless since it never played any real significance in the DCAU. Barbara telling Terry about them dating reiterated the fact that Barbara doesn't like that Bruce has let himself be a miserable, lonely recluse; but think about it: is it necessary that she had to have seen him as a romantic option in the past for her tell Terry that she felt that way? I really don't think so, since I feel that ultimately it kind of makes it seem like the writers thought that just being a mentor to Barbara wasn't enough to make their relationship matter even though with the Robins it's an understood father-son dynamic. Forcing a past-tense romance really cheapens things in my eyes. It's kind of disappointing seeing as at least every other romance Bruce has had actually had a side of him explored or something you could read into that says something about how his heart works. But with Barbara, it's only spoken about in past tense or in the one scene in Batwoman where he kind of treated her like she was a one-night-stand he'd like to ignore. We never even hear Bruce bring up their past as a couple which is pretty necessary to know what he really thought about things. That and while I could 100% see Barbara having a one-sided crush but even if there were feelings there, it makes me like Bruce less that he would take advantage of a mentor/student relationship and I'd like to think he cares about Dick enough to not do something like that (cause Dick looks up to Bruce, Bruce raised him from a young age, it'd be like your dad going out with your first girlfriend). I think at the end of the day it only happened for two reasons: Because they wanted to make Batman Beyond more controversial (I mean, dropping a bombshell like this really ONLY served to stir up fans since it didn't matter at all in the BB series), and maybe because Bruce Timm has a fascination with shipping Bruce Wayne with almost every female character he can (seriously, I can appreciate the good writing of the scenes of Bruce and Lois or Bruce and Diana; but in the end we already KNOW it's not going to end up happening in the long run).
Mistakes or not, adults have relationships, it happens. I always thought, since I was a kid actually, that the DCAU handled the Batman/Batgirl dynamic in a really subtle, mature way.
It's not even just weird, it's creepy. He met her at sixteen, that's the biggest thing for me. It's just crazy to me that Bruce would see her that way at any point in time. Add that to the fact that she dated his own son and she's his best friend's daughter. I get the whole "making a mistake" thing, but I personally don't like my favorite superhero being portrayed as a creep without self-control or a good moral sense when it comes to dating.
I realised a lot of the discomfort is due to Batman being something of a mentor to a lot of fans IRL. To see Batman to be seen to taking advantage of that kind of relationship upsets us because we understandably expect him to be held to a higher standard as a guru
Yes she got old enough to make her own decisions, but she was essentially groomed by her boyfriends dad... there's no way to spin this as not fucking GROSS AS HELL!
Hahahaha! It does seem like that. I think without the inflection and body language that comes with IRL interactions, the internet has a way of making any conversation, or opionions read like everything is more critical, or more important then it really is. Compare/contrast everything said about the final season of Game of thrones online vs real life conversations with friends/family about the same subject. (Or the last Jedi or Ghostbusters 2016 if you want topics more divisive for example) I can write between 3 paragraphs 3 PAGES about my feelings/thoughts about this Bat-Ship wreck. IRL, my arms are flailing wildly, my tone is silly, but clear and direct, I'm laughing the whole time, which is about a 1-5 minutes of back & forth conversation. Online though, it can read as if Bruce Timm killed my childhood cat, stuffed it and mailed it to me on my birthday with me screaming his "Tiiiiiiiiiiiiiimm" Doing my best William Shatner impersonation.
@@TheBondsbeyondtime then there should have been a Batman X Wonder woman sex scene and Batman X Catwoman sex scene and Batman X zatanna sex scene and Batman X Harley Quinn sex scene and Batman X poison ivy sex scene and Batman X Talia al ghul sex scene I would have taken any of these rather than the Bruce/Babs one any day of the week
Its probably my least favorite “thing” in the entire DCAU. I do my best to pretend it never happened. She dated his son... and she’s his best friend’s daughter. I think BTAS Bruce has more character than to pursue a relationship even if he developed feelings for her.
To me, I've always found a relationship between Barbara and Bruce very uncomfortable. To me, they've always had a father/daughter dynamic in all forms of media. I can understand how Barbara could have a crush on Bruce, or have strong, deep feelings for because he's a billionaire playboy publicly and is Batman. Any college to normal adult woman would probably find that attractive, even without knowing he's Batman. But, seeing Bruce reciprocate that is uncomfortable, because of the friendship he has with Gordon and the fact that knowing one of her past relationships is his adopted son. To appease my discomfort, I think, at least in the DCAU, Barbara would have feelings for Bruce, but he would never share those feelings because of the reasons I mentioned previously. And to push the envelope even further, you have Bruce bg tempted and even have those feelings, but know that it's morally wrong and not commit to it.
Batman X Catwoman Batman X Wonder woman Batman X Talia al ghul Batman X zatanna even Batman X Harley Quinn and Batman X poison ivy these relationships make a lot more sense.
Well just realised that was the second time Bruce pulled the going under the tunnel with paper gag since he also did it in Batman and Harley Quinn with Booster Gold
@@dcauwatchtower He was talking to booster gold from the watchtower when nightwing was dissing justice League members in the batmobile. Been watching a lot of your videos recently and it's great to see people discussing the dcau with such passion.I'm trying to say that I've watched every episode of Batman the animated series and the new Batman adventures and I'm going to start watching the Zeta Project soon.
Wow it's been 11 months we're going through a global pandemic, and I still haven't started watching the Zeta Project. Probably more likely that I rewatch Batman Beyond. thanks random commenter! 🥚👶
@AnthonyOMEGA Bruce timm could literally be thrown with other Terrible Writers who ruin a lotta childhoods Like (Dan didio superheroes can't be happy and everyone should act like Batman or be like Batman and everything needs to be dark and edgy) (I don't care about continuearity or characters Brian Michael bendis) (I made Peter Parker act like a douchebag and an a hole and have him have his own business and had good concept but executed poorly Dan slott) (edgelord and filling worshiper Mark Millar) (modern racist old senile scumbag sexist Frank Miller) (modern edgelord Garth Ennis) (superheroes can't be happy and I made Spider-Man sell his marriage to the devil Joe quesada) do I need to go on
If your childhood was impacted at all by the DCAU, then Bruce Timm crafted your childhood, and nobody can take that away from you. Same with any of those guys. “Ruin my childhood” is such a silly concept.
The problem is not in the age, because both are of legal age and can consent to what they do, the problem is in the context of the relationship, Batman got his adopted son's girlfriend pregnant, it is the Nightwing who was injured in this whole process because he suffered a double betrayal and betrayal hurts a lot!!! That's why it is so revolting for almost everybody (or at least for me).
I like your breakdown on Batman's past relationships. Relationships in general are weird even the good healthy ones. I dont see a problem with them having a connection. It is, after all, two consenting adults.
The reason it's inappropriate is the mentor-student relationship and the power imbalance since Batman is effectively Batgirl's boss. It's even made clear within the show that the relationship is seen as inappropriate. Bruce is made uncomfortable by Barbara's infatuated call, Barbara is reluctant to tell Terry about the relationship, and Terry is as surprised as he is because the relationship was inappropriate.
The Batman x Batgirl hookup serves no purpose except to tarnish both of their characters. It makes the Batman mythos worse. It takes Batman, a mythical character who is supposed to be defined by his "truly incorruptible" nature (in the words of Joker), and it turns him into a groomer who impulsively has sex with his student / his adopted son's girlfriend / his best friend's daughter whom he has known since a child. It takes Batgirl, a respectable hero in her own right, and it turns her into a pathetic infatuated loser with no judgment or self-control. These characters are supposed to be idealized heroes. Batman and Batgirl both deserve better than this. These writers should be ashamed of themselves for this disgusting fanfic garbage.
No way! As soon as I saw the Thumbnail my mind instantly went to how Batman is Batgirl's mentor. And how staying that way makes them strong friends and crime fighters. Another informative and entertaining video. Keep it up!
@@TheShockVox He teaches her everything man, Babs would be dead without Batman's guidance. It's a student-teach relationship the same as the comics, no getting around that.
Well besides Barbara, there’s also the fact that the DCAU Joker has a clear backstory and is pretty much evil/insane with no redemption (as is his portrayal in Paul Dini and Alex Ross’ works since they both prefer the former bored mobster turned criminal mastermind). That would lessen the impact of the Killing Joke flashbacks if we know for sure 100% that they’re fake.
@@joeytheslimeboi8900 She got better.... Hell, she's gotten better in the comics. I know it's mostly a retcon BUT they also explained it, in-universe, so it counts. It always kind of bugged me, in the comics, that Batman didn't just take her to the nearest Lazarus Pit right after anyway. Yeah, you have that period of insanity but that should be easy to deal with. For that matter why not do the same when Bane broke his back?
1) They are both legal adults, their bodies, their feelings. They both consent to be in a relationship, literally who are you disagree ? 2) People make it sound like Bruce is old enough to be Barbara's father. They only have a ten year old gap between them, Barbara is in her early twenties and Bruce in his mid thirties. Do you incels never go out ? Do you think that such a gap is rare in couples ? fcking nerds 3) Gordon would be happy if he knew Batman wed his daughter. He knows he can trust Batman, and that he would take good care of his daugher. Instead of some literally who dating Barbara, he will be at ease knowing his friend will be part of his family. And who wouldn't want to be related to Batman ? 4) Barbara and Dick broke up, she doesn't belong to him, she's not his property. She's a free independant woman, this is not Pakistan. 5) No he is not her mentor, Barbara is mostly self trained and became Batgirl before she knew of Bruce's secret identity. And even then, I wouldn't see the problem.
@Naquin Green um... at the risk of going full 'Ross&Rachel'... they were on a Break... she was free to do what/who ever she chose... the Break ended and they picked up with little to no lost time with Dick opting to propose in under 3 weeks (with Babs/Bruce being over for several weeks before the dick/Babs reunion)
The only thing that makes the situation as uncomfortable as it is, for me at least, is the character model. Since as you mentioned they used her early 20's model that looked so young in comparison to Bruce's more bulky adult model, especially since I grew up with BTAS and TNBA that thought was always in the back of my mind when watching the Killing Joke. It didn't translate to me at first when I watched Mystery of the Batwoman because I was too young to understand, but rewatching it again it felt weird mostly because I imagined her still in college. But on the other hand, the BTAS Batgirl didn't set off the alarms for me because even though on the timeline she was younger, she looked older and it could be perceived as normal. With animation and especially with Bruce Timm's policies, age is malleable. For example the whole Wonder Woman being 18 dynamic I didn't even know about before watching this video, and I'd always been totally all for #WonderBat. But if I went into the show where that age was openly expressed the way it was with Batgirl, I might've had more of a problem with it but it still wouldn't feel wrong because the character model was drawn like an adult. I feel like that's really where all the discomfort comes from.
I never liked this idea much. This video let me see it from a different perspective though. To consider the behavior and intentions of Batman himself, it is understandable that he could turn to Barbara after being close with her for almost a decade. I honestly had never really considered it from that point of view, I always just reflexively didn't like it due to how much of a mistake it is. Bruce Time explaining that it being a mistake was the whole point of shipping them like that was great too.
When I first saw this relationship was in “The Killing Joke” movie. I thought it was just shoved in gratuitously in order to add drama and such. However, I’m currently going through all the animated Batman series, movies, etc. and now I see that this was kinda always there. That being said, while I don’t actually think the relationship is healthy and can easily be seen as grooming or something to that effect, I actually really like the idea that this is a major mistake they both made and a huge flaw of Batman’s. Too often Batman’s depicted as this perfect human being but to see him do something like this I think actually gives him a good amount of character development (if explores/handled properly) MY favorite version of the two (so far) is in “The Batman (2004)”. She’s just a kid that wants to work with the hero, and then later Robin comes along etc. Relationships in the real world are complicated and as wrong as it may seem, these things do happen. It always makes my skin crawl personally. But if everyone involved is consenting adults, live and let live I suppose 🤷🏻
Yeah, sorry but no. This relationship is creepy no matter how you slice it. Leaving age aside for a moment (though Bruce's comments about how she's grown certainly don't help) a relationship between a mentor and a student is always going to have creepy vibes (unless they only become student and mentor _after_ the relationship starts) because it's very hard not to see it as grooming. Furthermore, it's uber creepy if this person has been dating _your son._ The fact that she's his friend's daughter and he's keeping it from him is also a bit of a red flag. I'm also going to throw in there the fact that they dress in the same costume, which gives it all a fetishist air. Perhaps you can make the case that each of these circumstances isn't bad enough on their own, but when put together they're certainly an issue. And Bruce Timm's attitude towards it doesn't help either. Sure, he claims that it's supposed to be a mistake, but why then the need to revisit it in a completely different universe? _Twice,_ if you count the fact that Batman Beyond's canonicity regarding BTAS wasn't a sure thing until later down the line. It's all too "the writer's barely-disguised fetish" to me.
I think the biggest reason why people may feel off-put about the relationship (myself included) is because if it was meant to come off as a mistake, there wasn't anything in-canon really acknowledging that maybe it was. If anything, all the evidence we seem to find is that it was a mutual breakup if anything. Like, the awkward phone call in TNBA and his stance on work relationships in JL/JLA is the best evidence for it, but even then it doesn't feels like that much evidence for it, when everything else makes it feel like it was a genuine relationship with nothing but it being a mutual breakup. Plus a lot of the reasons as to why Babara stopped being Bat-Girl and why she goes down the life path we see her go into Beyond aren't really affected by that "mistake." Not even a passing mention something like "it made things a little awkward after that" or something. Plus there's the fact it's the ex of his adopted son who is also a work friend, give me an example of that working because that spells a disaster that seems to have not been bad enough to get a mention or allusion to. Also the exclusion of Diana/Wonder Woman in his pictures is understandable considering Beyond came out before JL/JLU, but the exclusion of Andrea is weird. My guess is due to limitations from not having a model sheet for her in the TNBA style, same with Cathy. But if that's the case was there not even a pic of the one plant clone he married? I feel like she (and the others, at least Andrea) should have been brought up.
I prefer Rick and Kory, anyway. As for the fact that she is his best friend's daughter, if I had a daughter who was risking her life to combat sociopath, violent, lunatics with Bruce; her sleeping with my him would just be a drop in the bucket. As covered in the video, and whats glaringly obvious, Bruce isn't exactly a shining example of sanity.
@ Maybe they should all just have Brock's eyes then. Lol
5 лет назад
@@dcauwatchtower also why I asking that, remember that reason Lex Luthor in DCAU looks like that, and not like in any comics of that period (Trump parody) is because they modeled him after Telly Savalas.
I don't feel too bad for Nightwing. I mean Barbra stopped over at his house once in the comics and Starfire opened the door. So I always thought Batman and Batgirl would be good together.
I believe Bruce Timm when he says he doesn't want to ship Bruce and Babs. He never wanted to ship them. But he's kinda always desperately wanted to softcore rule 34 them.
Personally i only hated the killing joke because of how mishandle it was but in term of the regular dcau relationship i didn't like it #batcat4ever but i never found it bad or anger inducing since Bruce for 90% of the time was either backpedaling or rejecting barb on a separate note while i don't like the relationship i do like the idea of barb having a crush on Bruce and dick having an issue with it i hope at some point that dynamic is explored further
For me, I could excuse the age deficient considering they are both concenting adults. If it wasn't for the fact that he watched her grow up. Essentially had the same relationship with her as any of his other kids at that time. But maybe that is just my hang up about it. What raises a eyebrow for me is 3:36 She percieved a relationship with him during college. His son was in college at that time and they could have been dating at that time. If Bruce didn't have a romantic aspect to thier relationship at that time. Why wouldn't he just dispel the assumption then and there? Plus no matter how short of a stent of time or how serious it got. She dated his son. That still feels wierd. Also having any romantic feelings for her so close from possible during or at the very least super close to after they had dated makes it all the more understandable why it hurt Dick so bad.
@@matti.8465 The Fandom ran with Harley and Ivy with little provocation... and isn't Timm on Record stating that the Babs/Bruce relationship isn't Meant to be a 'good thing'
@UCleJWr3bimf2thgE3EZarMQ None of the of the relationships you stated are presented as healthy, Timm himself said so. Guess what you dumbass, not all relationships in real life are healthy
I mean, I think that the age difference is just not an excuse since there're couples with even bigger gaps in between their age (quote the 14 year difference between my father and step-mother). The only thing that I find odd about those 2 is the fact that Babs and Dick dated before; but then again, it was a very short relationship according to the continuity and Bruce and Babs are both very concious adults by the time that they're in a concensual relationship. My veredict: I don't care what they do. It's weird, but there're are even more weirdish relationships that both Bruce and Barbara have been in, without mentioning other relationships of other heroes (Nightwing). Besides, they're all heroes and vigilantes, let them find love and comfort wherever they can, as long as it's legal, mind you. Oh, and the way I see it, Bruce and Jim's relationship is one of a father and son, Jim's kinda a father figure for Brucie Boy sometimes. At least this is my opinion; now, don't think I'm a fan of this ship, 'cos I'm not, but I don't really find a reason why it is terrible. Weird? For sure, horrible? Why?
1) They are not related 2) Yeah, he's older than her, but we would not be considering that if it was the other way around. Just look at Anakin and Padme; nobody complained about their age gap. 3) She's Gordon's daughter. Gordon doesn't have a good relationship with Bruce Wayne, only a strict and somewhat weird partnership( except not really) with Batman. So, while it might be a little weird, Bruce isn't betraying his best friend here because they aren't friends at all, and they never will because he needs to keep his secret identity a secret. 4) Barbara ain't a teenager anymore; she is older now and free to make her choices, like with who she smashes with. Let me clarify: I do not ship them. I'm not into shipping, but if I had to ship Batman with somebody, then that would be Catwoman. I just don't give a damn about Batman and Batgirl banging together, they found the other attractive and that's it.
I never got mad at Barberra and Bruce. It felt mutual to me and something I'm sure Gordon wouldn't mind when discussed. Also love me some Harley looking hot!
There is a point where “interesting” doesn’t match with “somthing to explore” This relationship fits. For the longest time I was under the impression that Barbara was 16 when she was introduced. Her being 18 at introduction doesn’t change my feelings on this pairing. Her design never screamed “College” student to me. It was too immature a design, especially when compared to any of the other women that showed up as love interests. And how Her interest was shown brings to mind how students often get crushes on their teachers. But it’s Obviously a bad idea to try and make a move on your teacher. Not to mention he’s one of her fathers Best Friends. It also never seemed like Bruce was genuinely interested. He always came off as “awkward, please not this again” when Babs would flirt. Like he was trying to dodge a bullet. He obviously cared for her, and don’t want to hurt her feelings, but that doesn’t equate to being interested but unwilling to pursue. For Pete’s sake, when she’s first introduced he brought her a teddy bear because he could only remember her as a kid. All that on Top of the fact she Dated His Kid. It doesn’t matter how short the relationship appeared to be or how long it was between when they broke up and when her and Bruce Hooked up. If we take the comic Continuation into account, Dick and Barbara Got Back Together. He was going to Propose. It obviously was NOT “Puppy love” as they have Babs say in Beyond. So the relationship didn’t have nearly as much support as people think. It all comes down to interpersonal relationships. You don’t date your parents friends, you don’t date your kids ex, and you CERTAINLY don’t date someone you met and got too know first as a minor. There a lines you don’t cross. Even if Bruce Tim says it’s SUPPOSED to be wrong and uncomfortable, doesn’t give it leeway. It’s a black mark on an otherwise amazing animated adaptation. This is all moot now a days though, since I’ve seen in a couple places that it was retconed to not have happened. Just like the Jason/Talia thing at the end of “Lost Days” was retconed out.
Bruce didn’t bring her a teddy bear, her dad did, and it was her childhood teddy bear. The comic you’re talking about with the proposal isn’t in the same continuity as the shows. James Gordon is as old as Thomas Wayne would be were he alive, according to Bruce, so while they’re good friends he’s also very much not in the same age group. Just tossin’ a couple rebuttals back atcha.
@@dcauwatchtower Thank you for the clarification on the teddy bear bit, that was me misremembering. While the comic was in a different continuity, it was based heavily on BtAS. But Gordon’s age doesn’t negate the fact that he a Bruce are friends. Nor does it detract from the fact that when we are introduced to Barbara, Bruce has already met her and went into that while still thinking of her as a teenager very much underage.
The whole point of the relationship was that it was a mistake. It was never portrayed as a good thing. So I don't see how it's any different than personal problems other heroes had to deal with, like Tony Stark's alcoholism or the love triangle between Cyclops, Wolverine, and Jean Grey.
KingOfMadCows You made me remember Wolverine and The Xmen. Wolverine and Jean had some mutual interest since they met and Jean was still like 16 or 17, but that never turned out, at that time at least.
If it's painted as mistake, then I think you could develop an interesting story. But there has to be consequences. I agree that it felt like a mistake in Killing Joke, but there wasn't enough direct acknowledgement of it being a mistake. It just... happened. Bruce also just has MANY creepy interactions with women in general in BTAS and the New Adv; the "you've grown" moment is genuinely revolting.
I always got the feeling that Bruce and Barbra had slept together prior to then events of Mystery of the Batwoman. Something about the way Bruce is hardcore avoiding her. That line from Barbra in the diner always seemed to imply that she and Bruce where never an item, but just that they where lovers.
Mystery of the Batwoman is when it all started. It's obvious they were already dating during that time, Tim knew, Alfred knew. But I think Bruce wasn't avoiding her. He didn't want to go ham with her when there were people around so he used his skills to escape.
I have no strong feelings about the ship, personally. Mainly because while I can see how it could happen on paper, the voice acting never sold it to me. It’s the same reason why even though many people ship Batman with Catwoman, I couldn’t really get into it due to the poor chemistry they seemed to have in BTAS. Yes, they have flirty lines but the delivery feels so unnatural that neither of them were ships I was going to root for. But then again, I only ship Batman with Wonderwoman so what do I know?
Thanks for talking about this I was never a fan of Bruce and Barb I've always prefer Barb and Dick, now thanks to this video I can't understand this relationship and accept it. Before I was like: Bruce dating Barb: wired! Me having a crush on Barb from TNBA: completely normal!!
Well, when not looking at the Batman Beyond show, and judging this from Barbara's perspective, it can be understandable. How many of us had crushes on people over 10 years older than us when we were kids? Then see if you can call this weird/bad/disgusting. Cuz I don't.
There's an exchange between Barbara and Terry in the Batman Beyond episode "A Touch of Curare" where Barbara gets pissed at Bruce for allegedly manipulating Terry into becoming Batman, and Terry's all like "It's what I wanted" and she says "That's what we all thought, at the beginning." I feel like that line has some concerning implications, considering that she and Bruce dated. It certainly sounds like Barbara thinks that Bruce did something wrong.
You've got it all wrong people, Bruce Timm never really cared for the idea of BabsxBruce, the truth is he's secretely been a diehard NightwingxStarfire shipper at heart all this time. He obviously could never find a way to include Kori and display her Dick's love in any of his Batman shows/movies so he did the next best thing by torpedoing the rival ship with Barbara. I mean think about it who are little kids watching going to be drawn to, the alien girl Robin has a cute romance with on Titans or the chick who left him and fucked his dad, the man an evil genius.
The thing with me and this pairing is that this version of Batman literally begged his parents for forgiveness when he wanted to live a normal life with Andrea so I really can't see him going for a girl who is half his age and one hi protegees
Thank you for this video! Normally, I would have a problem with this pairing, but I came to realize that the wrongness of the relationship was the point of it. Whenever it's brought up, it's never presented as a good thing. There's also the fact that Bruce is just horrible with relationships with people in general regardless if their romantic or not. Bruce is not someone you want live with; let alone spend any time with in general. Truthfully, being in the batfamily is just one of the worst fates in almost every version of the DC Universe. You're a crime fighter being led by a man who is mentally eight years old, one of the most stubborn people on the planet, has horrible people skills, and makes bad romantic decisions as well. You're relationship will eventually break down, and you will regret ever having met him to begin with. What really shows Bruce's greatest character flaw would be in the JLU episode "For the Man Who Has Everything" When the Black Mercy attaches itself to Batman, his greatest desire is to see Joe Chill getting beat up for eternity. His ideal world never moves beyond that moment. Dick, Barbara, Tim, Alfred, and the other members of the Justice League aren't part of it. Bruce is so stuck in the past that it comes at ruining his present and making a horrible future. Bruce is his own worst enemy. Lastly, I want to ask you something. Wonder Woman is 18 years old at the start of Justice League!? You mean chronologically 18 and not just physically 18 due to her immortality? I know John Stewart referred to her as a "rookie in the tiara," but I thought that was due to her inexperience and never being off Themyscira before. I never thought it meant being an actual inexperienced teenager. If Diana really is just 18 years old, then that makes her the youngest of the founding members of the Justice League, and Barbara Gordon is older than her. That certainly puts a whole new light on the DCAU.
Not a fan of the pairing, but understood why it happened in DCAU. I do love how Mystery of Batwoman showed how much Tim and Alfred liked to take shots at Bruce over it. I can just imagine how much shit Bruce got over dating Babs from everyone around him.
I always thought only was Wonder Woman an adult in appearance, but also older because of her history of living through the history, with Steve Trevor and what not. So she'd be older than Batman
I actually enjoyed the concept in the DCAU. Was it messed up? yes, but only in the sense Bruce was Dick's father basically. But it was very human. And it's made better with Batman Beyond and the batwoman movie. The fact he's kinda avoiding Barb because he knows it's wrong, or how in Beyond its implied she's the one he thinks of most. People kinda play up how much of a "father figure" Bruce is to her. Hell in the DCAU he never even really IS a father figure to her. Bruce makes mistakes, he’s not perfect. It works for his character and doesn’t contradict Barb’s either.
Batgirl and Dick Grayson's Robin/Nightwing have been an on again/off again item for decades and fans loved seeing them together because the chemistry was so natural. Putting her with Batman just grosses everyone out. Yuck!
Personally I never had a problem with Bruce hooking it up with Babs. But maybe that's because I grew up on the DCAU and seeing it play out organically over the years probably helped me accept their relationship. I think that's the reason why most had a hard time accepting that scene from "The Killing Joke" as that relationship didn't enjoy the same time afforded to the DCAU to develop that relationship.
The ship is wrong because 1- she is a work partner, batman himself stated why that's a bad move 2- she is Jim Gordon's daughter, one of batman's closest allies who doesn't know his daughter is bat girl. There is no way he would approve of it. 3- she is grayson's ex, makes Bruce come off as a backstabbing piece of garbage 4- yeah, she is LEGAL but still...still a wide age difference. You would think bruce would find that wrong 5- there was never any chemistry outside of the comic writer's weird fetishes. So yeah...no
The concept of the ship being wrong is completely irrational. Age gap - She is an adult who readers are completely fine with allowing to risk her life contstantly but balk at her ability to wisely choose romantic interests? Gordon - Gordon is older than Bruce and their is no moral issue with dating a friend's daughter if you care about them. Dick - The Richard question is weird since he and barb are wildly different depending on the series and medium. For my money they make a terrible couple anyway.
4:00-4:06 IDK lol to me that implies that something happened whether it be full blown sex or just a kiss. Seems like something happened and she just took it as " oh were together now". lol
I was never opposed to the idea of Batgirl having a crush on her mentor, but the fixation Bruce Tim has on trying to make them an official couple is just weird.
You do realize he's the first one to pair her with Dick, right?
Still not a fan of the ship. Especially with the scene of Bruce talking about "how much she has grown". That's creepy especially in the context that he will go onto date her
Bruce was putting on a show as the billionaire playboy who is friends with Commissioner Gordon. Batman isn't the type of person who would REALLY say that to a young woman he'd known as a teenager, and you won't find him talking like that anywhere else except when he's wearing his "Bruce Wayne" mask. It's weird with the context of hindsight I guess, but it's not like he knew they'd go on to date anyway.
@@AbjectPermanence That doesn't change the fact that it's weird. Just because he had his mask on doesn't mean it's something weird and uncomfortable to say to someone who in the context of the show has a crush on you and you will (even unknown to you) that you would eventually date. It reminds me of Woody Allen who married his stepdaughter. (I know this isn't an exact copy but it is one of the first things that pops into my head when I think jof the context of the Bruce and Barbara relationship storyline)
BARABARA IS JIM'S NIECE/ADOPTED DAUGHTER not JIM's BIRTH/BIOLOGICAL DAUGHTER
BRUCE TREATS BARBARA LIKE AN EMPLOYEE, BARBARA DEVELOPS FEELINGS for BRUCE and throw herself om onto BRUCE
@@dektran4843 We don't know if she is his niece or his daughter in Batman the animated series due to Scott Snyder writing the backstory in which Babs is Gordon's niece being written post when the animated series actually aired and Bruce Timm never stating this as fact in his canon
@@skymcnamara8239 READ Flawed Gems / The Secret Origin of Dr. Mid-Nite
"Wonder Woman is 18 at the beginning of Justice League"
WHAT THE ACTUAL FRICK.
Lies! Lies! Lies!
There are also hints that she was around in Ancient Greece though so I’m not sure if the 18 thing is actually true?
@@tiptapricot Well Bats did say Diana was a Princess from a society of immortal warriors. Key word 'Immortal'
MLPFiMBrony2232 yeah and in Paradise lost she saw a vase in a museum and congratulated the artist like she knew them. She also knew the statue in Harv Hickman’s house was a Roman copy, either meaning she just has a good eye for true Greek art or that, again, she was around to see the original.
She looks a lot older than 18. Like compare her to Barbara or Kara and the way Diana’s drawn is more adult.
Batman: Sorry, Barbara has been my sidekick for a while now.
Gordon: Well, that does make me angry that you lied to me, but she's her own person. I'll give it a pass.
Batman: I also f*cked her, Jim.
*The events of Over the Edge happen but in real life*
This such a funny comments... This dservers more likes... Lol!
Let's be honest Jim would fucking murder Bruce for that.
@@hordakprime6172 Based on what? You being a nutcase?
I read that in Conroy’s voice. 😂
@@Anti-HyperLink For Bruce having no respect and decency.
It will forever be fucked up considering their first interaction reads like a student-teacher type relationship with Bruce commenting on how much she's grown and looking back after finding out what happens between them is just disgusting. You can humanize and give Batman flaws without it being abhorrent.
Ok, since no one is pointing it out, here it is: even ignoring it's his friend's daughter, and ignoring that she's half his age, she dated his son first.
This "ship" is creepy no matter how you put it.
Did you guys forget in the comics, they had a thing, the killing joke from the 80's
@@maymay5600
In Timm's comics or actual comics?
@@maymay5600 😖
@@maymay5600 Yes, and it was weird and gross.
@@maymay5600 Comics do weird and stupid shit too.
The Bruce/Babs thing is what I consider to be Bruce’s 2nd biggest mistake after what happened to Tim. But, considering how much of a hermit he becomes in Beyond, I accept it. The truth is, having Bruce and Babs stop talking to each other because of a immoral relationship is better than just killing Babs off for the sake of making old Bruce a loner.
Immoral? Maybe, but not legally considering she'd be older than me. Strange and unnecessary? Yes.
@@brandonosborne6894 immoral in the sense that, his partner, his "son" was dating her. Do you want your dad dating your ex girlfriend? It's about respecting boundaries. Barbara and Bruce did was disrespectful towards Dick's feelings.
At the same time, Barbara should not have dated Dick at all as she helped to form another wedge in an already Rocky father-son relationship.
If the spent less time of rooftop and more time with Leslie Tompkins, perhaps they could have avoided the unpleasantness all together.
@@falleneldor I also like point out that even if the Titans existed in the dcau and Dick and Kory (Starfire) were dating Bruce and Barbara being together would be very very very weird and uncomfortable especially if dick introduces Starfire to Bruce and Barbara that would be very very uncomfortable.
@The Panel Biter
Batcat or Wonderbat should have been the relationships that they should have focused on I mean come on it's the writers fault that batcat and Wonderbat didn't happen in the dcau I mean come on Bruce being in a relationship with Catwoman that makes sense Bruce be in a relationship with Wonder woman that makes sense heck even Bruce being in a relationship with Zatana make sense even Bruce and Talia al ghul makes more sense any of these relationships are ten times better
Then the Brucebabs ship
Naquan Green
I thought I was the only one who enjoyed wonderbat.
Learning their ages during the DCAU version of the relationship does make it a little less creepy, but WOW they need to update Barbara and Tim's character models if they're supposed to be 30 and 18 in modern DCAU stuff. Also despite that I can't help but feel a lot of the creepiness of the relationship comes from Bruce knowing Barbara while she was still a minor, then her patterning herself off him, which feels like it could be seen as grooming.
Really the real revelation here is how short Dick and Babs relationship was. As I said in the Epilogue video, Dick Grayson is the continually most mishandled character in all the DCAU.
It's not weird in my opinion it's like if you were an artist when you are a teenager inspired by another artist who you had some sort of online friendship/ mentorship with when her or him, and then when you eventually grew up y'all started dating. Mind you there was no grooming involved in the example
Batman slept with his old student, the daughter of one of his closest longtime friends, who also happens to be his son’s ex-girlfriend, and therefore could have been his daughter-in-law if things were a little different (as basically proven by other timelines), all in a scene that was just kinda forced into a classic storyline straight from the comics. I get that they were trying to raise the stakes and make it seem like Batman was more invested in her than he should have been, but something about that doesn’t quite feel right to me. As a fan of the original Killing Joke, it feels like an unnecessary change to the entire story that comes across as extremely awkward and makes Batman kinda look like a creep. It distracts from the satisfaction of seeing this famous comic come to life. We shouldn’t have to analyze the timeline and ask the creators about their intentions and make clarifications about differences between continuities in order to try to justify this, and then still feel weird about this version of Batman whenever we think about this film.
It doesn’t matter if Dick and Barbara’s relationship lasted for a day or a decade, *any* woman your son has ever been involved with is OFF LIMITS.
You shouldn’t even date women that your friends have been with, let alone your own adopted son.
@miles Morales ...what? Who the hell cares who she's been "made for"? They have been together.
@miles Morales Bruce legally adopted Richard. Bruce raised him, trained him, sheltered him ever since his parents died.
Even if their relationship doesn’t have the usual (or healthy in some cases) father-son feeling, Bruce will always be Richards adopted father
@miles Morales Whatever age Richard was when Bruce adopted him DOESN’T MATTER. Richard is still Bruce’s adopted legal son and even if you take the age gap out of the equation there’s still the fact that the ship is awful
@miles Morales that movie only gets a ‘whatever pass’ since 1. They’re around the same age while Richard was a young teenager and 2. They don’t even get together in the end
All else aside, the plot point of their being together was just plain unnecessary. It doesn’t add anything or further Bruce as a character.
All it does is make us feel uncomfortable and kind of icky. Batman as a character in this universe is shown to be stubborn and single minded. He’s not above keeping secrets or manipulating people.
But he’s also shown that the reasons for this is that he cares _very_ deeply about others, such as people that are disadvantaged or downtrodden, his friends and teammates and especially the members of his found family.
He’s the type of person to sacrifice his own happiness again and again for the sake of others. So age gaps aside, the idea of him dating the daughter of a close friend and the former lover of his adopted son, knowing how deeply that would hurt and alienate them, just feels antithetical to his character.
It’s against everything we associate with Batman. He might alienate people for the sake of the mission, for a play to save or protect the common people, sure. But for his own selfish gratification in what is likely to only ever be a short lived fling? That’s just not the Batman I’ve come to know.
Bruce x Barbara is like asking if Batman should kill...
It may be an interesting avenue to explore, but when the property is at its most definitive, that would never happen.
Exactly
I like to think art is open to interpretation.
@@StarrPower2232 The problem with that argument is that it questions the limits of when art is unrecognizable.
I agree with this on another level. So true!
my tits or the DCAU olicity
As further evidence that Bruce Timm also finds the ship weird is that he said the same thing on the special features of Batman TAS much earlier on.
Most bat-ships are weird. Keeping things with the bats is kinda gross. Maybe if their first anthology series (other than Detective Comics) hadn't been called Batman Family.
Andrea Beaumont
Poison ivy
Barbara Gordon
The guy obviously has a thing for redheads.
Can ya blame him
who doesn't
Who doesn't indeed
What about Viki Vale?
@@Amy-yf9zc Hi look at this animation of Batman he made on youtube ruclips.net/video/bhZBTEHq-VU/видео.html
I could have done without it in the DCAU. It really makes it hard for me to watch DCAU Batman stuff. I view Batman and Batgirl as a teacher/student relationship and as someone in education, it just feels too taboo for me. Coupling that with Babs' father being one of Batman's closet allies and dare say friends, doesn't help either. I mean there isn't anything technically wrong with it but it just makes it difficult to watch DCAU Batman films and shows now.
Edit: I see, instead of a counter-argument, you all go for personal attacks and internet buzzwords that have lost all meaning? Got to love the irony of you folks getting "triggered" over point of view that they think you're actually upset about. So we are snowflakes and lunatics because we have an opinion on a cartoon plot point? Even though the video asked its viewers for their opinion, Yet you all still got mad about it?
The DCAU Bruce Wayne is admirable and one of the best iterations of the character but the throwaway line about him and Barbara stands out for a lot of reasons. He's her mentor and considerably older and she essentially dated his son (and in the Lost Years Dick implies he hoped to propose to Barbara before he found out she was Batgirl). It's not even a line that strengthens the story of Batman Beyond, so I personally just try to ignore it.
Nightman221k I tried to as well, but I just couldn’t do it. So I stick to other continuities(YJ and The DCAFU)
Mardon NaLou Honestly, I loves JL and JLU as a kid. But I don’t know if I want to watch BtAS due to the Bruce/Barbara thing. Especially since Dick Grayson is my favorite superhero ever and Dick/Babs is my otp. It’s just too weird for me.
@@Nightman221k Dick Grayson deserved better like Starfire I hated how to DCAU completely screwed him over there's no justification to how Dick Grayson got screwed over in the DCAU I mean they could have at least introduce Starfire and the rest of the Titans heck they could have introduced Donna Troy and have her be in a relationship with dick considering wonderbat didn't happen (even though it should have) WonderGrayson would have been the next best thing Dick Grayson X Donna Troy at least Dick got treated better in Young Justice (Nightwing X zatanna) and teen Titans (Robin X Starfire)
@@MardonNaLou Dick Grayson deserved better.
The WORST part of the DCAU is their relationship. I choose to forget it.
Luckily it’s easy enough to ignore. Wonder bat ship all the way.
Why?
Agreed.
@@MichaelMcCallister097 indeed and yup, love wonderbat
Me tow
My problem isn't with the two dating. As you said, Bruce and Barbara are rational adults by the time they start dating. My problem is with how it ended: with Bruce ruining Dick and Barbara's engagement by getting the girl his son was dating pregnant. That just doesn't feel like something Batman would do.
I will never like this relationship. I see it as a teacher\student, the deau does it in a subtle way that I appreciate because you can just not think about it.
It’s hella foul I’m cool w Bruce Timms sexual innuendos but the Batman batgirl thing is fucking foul and taints dcau batman.
The only reason I could maybe get behind it is bc i kinda like the idea of Batman being a scumbag in his personal life. It kinda adds a decent amount of depth that even though Batman is trying to be a hero he’s still a fucked up guy
There is a way to do it right........
*BY NOT DOING IT AT ALL*
bro really said there's nothing wrong with dating someone you've known since they were 16 💀
I had to rewind a couple times when I heard that part lmao red flag as hell
I agree that I like Bruce and Barbara as "that thing that exists but never should have been".
It’s also a good example of audiences reacting to a problem with a narrative, but not quite knowing how to articulate it. Obviously, you’re not supposed to like the hookup from The Killing Joke, but people often cite that as an issue with the movie itself. I think that what really struck people about that was how it felt just kind of… shoved in there. That sex scene existed purely for the sake of added shock value and a fruitless attempt to raise the emotional stakes. Most people don’t overthink straight to video animated film scripts like I do, so all that they usually have to say about it is “EEEWWWWW bad ship”. To quote Mr. Plinkett: “You might not have noticed… but your brain did.”
Alex Davis What about it implies that you’re not supposed to like it? It just seems like a another reason for Batman to go after Joker. A fridgeing situation
Alex Davis Bruce tim has a sick fethis.
No the problem eveyone has with that scene is that it was a cheap way to show flaws in a character and it also always seems like Bruce Timm is trying to force the relationship into everything he creates. I always thought that scene would have had a greater impact if Batman pushed her off and rejected her as it would have shown Barbara the reality of being Batgirl, that it wasn't all how she expected it to be. Barbara was chasing a fantasy, the whole reason of her wanting to be Batgirl was all about the thrill of it, the popularity, and to get into Batman's pants.
Mr plinkett sucks though...
Hope they fix his VCR soon...
Wonder Woman is 18 at the start of Justice League!?!?!?!
Wow, being an Amazon actually means something. O_o
Adam Napolitano I thought she was over a hundred years old
@@srstriker6420 not in the Justice League continuity she's not.
Adam Napolitano I'm confused about this because which is canon, is that Wonder Woman is immortal and is over a thousand years old or is not immortal?
@@srstriker6420 well in the show she has a different origin then the comics, I don't think she's immortal in the cartoon.
Adam Napolitano and heard that rumour that hades is her father and doesn't make her Demi goddess?
*raises hand* Mattie? Mattie? You can't just drop that "Wonder Woman was 18 in Secret Origins" bombshell on us and then not elaborate on it! MaTTIE?
The age difference is always less important than being Barbara's mentor/boss and adopted father of her ex. Barbara is always either aged up or de-aged to pair with people.
I mean, she has a doctorate. The cartoon actually aged her down to pair her with Dick, and only starting with the Mr. Freeze movie.
You have to remember, when B:TAS first aired, Dick had been out of Gotham for the most part for the previous 12 years. He was actually in space when Jason died; conversely, Bruce was busy recovering from Bane when he was supposed to be married. Bruce Timm and Paul Dini literally had no idea what to do with him. (Though to be fair, neither did Marv Wolfman, judging by early 90s Teen Titans.) So, he always felt like the weakest link of Batman: The Animated Series.
9:07 with them using the old models, Terry is imagining the story and he knows how they looked when Barbra was in her 20s and Tim in his early teens. The costume for Tim in the display case is too small for a college kid and Bruce being Bruce there probably isn’t many photos of the Bat Family after JL/JLU. That’s just me though.
Have definitely brought this up in a past video, the “so and so is being told a story and imagines it this way” works very well for this flashback and others.
Tim : "Don't drag me into this"
LMAO I love Tim Drake
I don't argue that it couldn't happen or that it's implausible that it could; but I really prefer to ignore this couple happening. Bruce being intimate with Barbara seems so needless since it never played any real significance in the DCAU. Barbara telling Terry about them dating reiterated the fact that Barbara doesn't like that Bruce has let himself be a miserable, lonely recluse; but think about it: is it necessary that she had to have seen him as a romantic option in the past for her tell Terry that she felt that way? I really don't think so, since I feel that ultimately it kind of makes it seem like the writers thought that just being a mentor to Barbara wasn't enough to make their relationship matter even though with the Robins it's an understood father-son dynamic. Forcing a past-tense romance really cheapens things in my eyes.
It's kind of disappointing seeing as at least every other romance Bruce has had actually had a side of him explored or something you could read into that says something about how his heart works. But with Barbara, it's only spoken about in past tense or in the one scene in Batwoman where he kind of treated her like she was a one-night-stand he'd like to ignore. We never even hear Bruce bring up their past as a couple which is pretty necessary to know what he really thought about things.
That and while I could 100% see Barbara having a one-sided crush but even if there were feelings there, it makes me like Bruce less that he would take advantage of a mentor/student relationship and I'd like to think he cares about Dick enough to not do something like that (cause Dick looks up to Bruce, Bruce raised him from a young age, it'd be like your dad going out with your first girlfriend).
I think at the end of the day it only happened for two reasons: Because they wanted to make Batman Beyond more controversial (I mean, dropping a bombshell like this really ONLY served to stir up fans since it didn't matter at all in the BB series), and maybe because Bruce Timm has a fascination with shipping Bruce Wayne with almost every female character he can (seriously, I can appreciate the good writing of the scenes of Bruce and Lois or Bruce and Diana; but in the end we already KNOW it's not going to end up happening in the long run).
Mistakes or not, adults have relationships, it happens. I always thought, since I was a kid actually, that the DCAU handled the Batman/Batgirl dynamic in a really subtle, mature way.
It's not even just weird, it's creepy. He met her at sixteen, that's the biggest thing for me. It's just crazy to me that Bruce would see her that way at any point in time. Add that to the fact that she dated his own son and she's his best friend's daughter. I get the whole "making a mistake" thing, but I personally don't like my favorite superhero being portrayed as a creep without self-control or a good moral sense when it comes to dating.
I realised a lot of the discomfort is due to Batman being something of a mentor to a lot of fans IRL. To see Batman to be seen to taking advantage of that kind of relationship upsets us because we understandably expect him to be held to a higher standard as a guru
Nope still hate it and there is nothing in this multiverse to change my mind "mistake" or otherwise.
You don't have to like it but remember they are both adults who make their own decisions. Even if it's a bad one.
@@Gsmooth84 Barbara is like a teen wtf
@Joaquin J Fernandez Which Barbara are you referring to? I'm pretty sure I'm not talking about a teen Barbara so stop freaking out smh.
@@mob5134 ...did you even watch the shows or at least this video? It was a 10 years gap at max
Yes she got old enough to make her own decisions, but she was essentially groomed by her boyfriends dad... there's no way to spin this as not fucking GROSS AS HELL!
I must be one of the few people on Earth to watch this scene and not fly into a rage or do an impression of Ace Ventura's crying in the shower scene.
It actually made Bruce and Barbara seem more human, well, for me anyway.
Hahahaha! It does seem like that. I think without the inflection and body language that comes with IRL interactions, the internet has a way of making any conversation, or opionions read like everything is more critical, or more important then it really is.
Compare/contrast everything said about the final season of Game of thrones online vs real life conversations with friends/family about the same subject. (Or the last Jedi or Ghostbusters 2016 if you want topics more divisive for example)
I can write between 3 paragraphs 3 PAGES about my feelings/thoughts about this Bat-Ship wreck. IRL, my arms are flailing wildly, my tone is silly, but clear and direct, I'm laughing the whole time, which is about a 1-5 minutes of back & forth conversation. Online though, it can read as if Bruce Timm killed my childhood cat, stuffed it and mailed it to me on my birthday with me screaming his "Tiiiiiiiiiiiiiimm"
Doing my best William Shatner impersonation.
@@gamemotron4594 Hi look at this animation of Batman he made on youtube ruclips.net/video/bhZBTEHq-VU/видео.html
Yea I literally watched the scene and it didn’t phase me at all. The nerds was tripping wayyy too hard over it
@@TheBondsbeyondtime then there should have been a Batman X Wonder woman sex scene and Batman X Catwoman sex scene and Batman X zatanna sex scene and Batman X Harley Quinn sex scene and Batman X poison ivy sex scene and Batman X Talia al ghul sex scene I would have taken any of these rather than the Bruce/Babs one any day of the week
Short answer: Yes
Long answer: Hell yes
Damian-13 tim-16 Jason-25 Nightwing-27 Batgirl-26 batman-39
My age range for the batfamily
Batgirl is Older than All the Robins.
@@vulbvibe so she is like 28
@@spoicygato5961 Not that it matters, but Catwoman and Batman has roughly 11 year age gap.
WTF Wonder Woman was 18???!?!!
Its probably my least favorite “thing” in the entire DCAU. I do my best to pretend it never happened.
She dated his son... and she’s his best friend’s daughter. I think BTAS Bruce has more character than to pursue a relationship even if he developed feelings for her.
Is it canon?
Wait.... wonder woman was 18 in the show?
Maybe the human equivalent to her amazonian age which prolly is 180 years or so
That makes sense Lol cause I was legit wondering how she was that young😂😂
To me, I've always found a relationship between Barbara and Bruce very uncomfortable. To me, they've always had a father/daughter dynamic in all forms of media. I can understand how Barbara could have a crush on Bruce, or have strong, deep feelings for because he's a billionaire playboy publicly and is Batman. Any college to normal adult woman would probably find that attractive, even without knowing he's Batman. But, seeing Bruce reciprocate that is uncomfortable, because of the friendship he has with Gordon and the fact that knowing one of her past relationships is his adopted son.
To appease my discomfort, I think, at least in the DCAU, Barbara would have feelings for Bruce, but he would never share those feelings because of the reasons I mentioned previously. And to push the envelope even further, you have Bruce bg tempted and even have those feelings, but know that it's morally wrong and not commit to it.
Batman X Catwoman Batman X Wonder woman Batman X Talia al ghul Batman X zatanna even Batman X Harley Quinn and Batman X poison ivy these relationships make a lot more sense.
With BatCat making the most sense.
@@joshstephens413 Yup.
Well just realised that was the second time Bruce pulled the going under the tunnel with paper gag since he also did it in Batman and Harley Quinn with Booster Gold
*Green Lantern
@@dcauwatchtower He was talking to booster gold from the watchtower when nightwing was dissing justice League members in the batmobile. Been watching a lot of your videos recently and it's great to see people discussing the dcau with such passion.I'm trying to say that I've watched every episode of Batman the animated series and the new Batman adventures and I'm going to start watching the Zeta Project soon.
Wow it's been 11 months we're going through a global pandemic, and I still haven't started watching the Zeta Project. Probably more likely that I rewatch Batman Beyond. thanks random commenter! 🥚👶
@@tokenbricks3355 you mean green lantern?
Killing joke didn’t happen
Let’s never mention it again
Never mention what?
honestly same
#KeepKillingJokeASecret
Killing Joke happened,it was just Joker's backstory and he singing a little song. That's it.
Her relationship with Dick was “puppy love”
Her relationship with Bruce was “Doggy style”
I’ll leave now...
Batman is only 12 years older than Barbara… really?!
Really really
Thank you Bruce Tim... for completely f-ing up my whole childhood 😡
🤔
@AnthonyOMEGA
Bruce timm could literally be thrown with other Terrible Writers who ruin a lotta childhoods Like (Dan didio superheroes can't be happy and everyone should act like Batman or be like Batman and everything needs to be dark and edgy) (I don't care about continuearity or characters Brian Michael bendis) (I made Peter Parker act like a douchebag and an a hole and have him have his own business and had good concept but executed poorly Dan slott) (edgelord and filling worshiper Mark Millar) (modern racist old senile scumbag sexist Frank Miller) (modern edgelord Garth Ennis) (superheroes can't be happy and I made Spider-Man sell his marriage to the devil Joe quesada) do I need to go on
If your childhood was impacted at all by the DCAU, then Bruce Timm crafted your childhood, and nobody can take that away from you. Same with any of those guys. “Ruin my childhood” is such a silly concept.
@@dcauwatchtower
I can’t enjoy shows I used to like because of this. He ruined my potential to enjoy his shows.
Is that better?
The problem is not in the age, because both are of legal age and can consent to what they do, the problem is in the context of the relationship, Batman got his adopted son's girlfriend pregnant, it is the Nightwing who was injured in this whole process because he suffered a double betrayal and betrayal hurts a lot!!! That's why it is so revolting for almost everybody (or at least for me).
That beginning got me off guard
I like your breakdown on Batman's past relationships. Relationships in general are weird even the good healthy ones. I dont see a problem with them having a connection. It is, after all, two consenting adults.
The reason it's inappropriate is the mentor-student relationship and the power imbalance since Batman is effectively Batgirl's boss. It's even made clear within the show that the relationship is seen as inappropriate. Bruce is made uncomfortable by Barbara's infatuated call, Barbara is reluctant to tell Terry about the relationship, and Terry is as surprised as he is because the relationship was inappropriate.
Willie logan you right they are adults
@@wfjhDUI yeah yeah yeah, just shut up.
She’s his son’s ex-girlfriend. That’s wrong.
@@JP-sd7di and his best friend’s daughter
#WonderBats4LYFE
I still find the relationship weird, but I can get over it. It’s not that big of a deal.
The Batman x Batgirl hookup serves no purpose except to tarnish both of their characters. It makes the Batman mythos worse.
It takes Batman, a mythical character who is supposed to be defined by his "truly incorruptible" nature (in the words of Joker), and it turns him into a groomer who impulsively has sex with his student / his adopted son's girlfriend / his best friend's daughter whom he has known since a child.
It takes Batgirl, a respectable hero in her own right, and it turns her into a pathetic infatuated loser with no judgment or self-control.
These characters are supposed to be idealized heroes.
Batman and Batgirl both deserve better than this. These writers should be ashamed of themselves for this disgusting fanfic garbage.
No way! As soon as I saw the Thumbnail my mind instantly went to how Batman is Batgirl's mentor. And how staying that way makes them strong friends and crime fighters. Another informative and entertaining video. Keep it up!
Hardly a mentor. They work together. She acted as Batgirl as her own for the most part.
@@TheShockVox
He teaches her everything man, Babs would be dead without Batman's guidance. It's a student-teach relationship the same as the comics, no getting around that.
To be fair look at what happened to hawk girl and Gl. Probably gives Bruce enough reason to not want to pursue WW.
Exactly!
I mean, it could've worked between them if Shayera hadn't been lying the whole time. With Diana's lasso that'd take lies out of the equation.
@@Nightman221k Eventually it had somehow worked considering that 50 years in the future they have Warhawk together.
The Killing Joke = Will it canon? That is the question.
ComiXProvider FTW_02 it can’t Barbara can walk in beyond
@@joeytheslimeboi8900 i think the beyond or beyond 2.0 comic explained that tho
Mattie Washburn oh God your right
Well besides Barbara, there’s also the fact that the DCAU Joker has a clear backstory and is pretty much evil/insane with no redemption (as is his portrayal in Paul Dini and Alex Ross’ works since they both prefer the former bored mobster turned criminal mastermind). That would lessen the impact of the Killing Joke flashbacks if we know for sure 100% that they’re fake.
@@joeytheslimeboi8900 She got better.... Hell, she's gotten better in the comics. I know it's mostly a retcon BUT they also explained it, in-universe, so it counts.
It always kind of bugged me, in the comics, that Batman didn't just take her to the nearest Lazarus Pit right after anyway. Yeah, you have that period of insanity but that should be easy to deal with. For that matter why not do the same when Bane broke his back?
1) They are both legal adults, their bodies, their feelings. They both consent to be in a relationship, literally who are you disagree ?
2) People make it sound like Bruce is old enough to be Barbara's father. They only have a ten year old gap between them, Barbara is in her early twenties and Bruce in his mid thirties. Do you incels never go out ? Do you think that such a gap is rare in couples ? fcking nerds
3) Gordon would be happy if he knew Batman wed his daughter. He knows he can trust Batman, and that he would take good care of his daugher. Instead of some literally who dating Barbara, he will be at ease knowing his friend will be part of his family. And who wouldn't want to be related to Batman ?
4) Barbara and Dick broke up, she doesn't belong to him, she's not his property. She's a free independant woman, this is not Pakistan.
5) No he is not her mentor, Barbara is mostly self trained and became Batgirl before she knew of Bruce's secret identity. And even then, I wouldn't see the problem.
@Naquin Green um... at the risk of going full 'Ross&Rachel'... they were on a Break... she was free to do what/who ever she chose... the Break ended and they picked up with little to no lost time with Dick opting to propose in under 3 weeks (with Babs/Bruce being over for several weeks before the dick/Babs reunion)
The only thing that makes the situation as uncomfortable as it is, for me at least, is the character model. Since as you mentioned they used her early 20's model that looked so young in comparison to Bruce's more bulky adult model, especially since I grew up with BTAS and TNBA that thought was always in the back of my mind when watching the Killing Joke. It didn't translate to me at first when I watched Mystery of the Batwoman because I was too young to understand, but rewatching it again it felt weird mostly because I imagined her still in college. But on the other hand, the BTAS Batgirl didn't set off the alarms for me because even though on the timeline she was younger, she looked older and it could be perceived as normal. With animation and especially with Bruce Timm's policies, age is malleable. For example the whole Wonder Woman being 18 dynamic I didn't even know about before watching this video, and I'd always been totally all for #WonderBat. But if I went into the show where that age was openly expressed the way it was with Batgirl, I might've had more of a problem with it but it still wouldn't feel wrong because the character model was drawn like an adult. I feel like that's really where all the discomfort comes from.
I never liked this idea much. This video let me see it from a different perspective though. To consider the behavior and intentions of Batman himself, it is understandable that he could turn to Barbara after being close with her for almost a decade. I honestly had never really considered it from that point of view, I always just reflexively didn't like it due to how much of a mistake it is. Bruce Time explaining that it being a mistake was the whole point of shipping them like that was great too.
When I first saw this relationship was in “The Killing Joke” movie. I thought it was just shoved in gratuitously in order to add drama and such. However, I’m currently going through all the animated Batman series, movies, etc. and now I see that this was kinda always there.
That being said, while I don’t actually think the relationship is healthy and can easily be seen as grooming or something to that effect, I actually really like the idea that this is a major mistake they both made and a huge flaw of Batman’s. Too often Batman’s depicted as this perfect human being but to see him do something like this I think actually gives him a good amount of character development (if explores/handled properly)
MY favorite version of the two (so far) is in “The Batman (2004)”. She’s just a kid that wants to work with the hero, and then later Robin comes along etc.
Relationships in the real world are complicated and as wrong as it may seem, these things do happen. It always makes my skin crawl personally. But if everyone involved is consenting adults, live and let live I suppose 🤷🏻
Yeah, sorry but no. This relationship is creepy no matter how you slice it. Leaving age aside for a moment (though Bruce's comments about how she's grown certainly don't help) a relationship between a mentor and a student is always going to have creepy vibes (unless they only become student and mentor _after_ the relationship starts) because it's very hard not to see it as grooming. Furthermore, it's uber creepy if this person has been dating _your son._ The fact that she's his friend's daughter and he's keeping it from him is also a bit of a red flag. I'm also going to throw in there the fact that they dress in the same costume, which gives it all a fetishist air. Perhaps you can make the case that each of these circumstances isn't bad enough on their own, but when put together they're certainly an issue.
And Bruce Timm's attitude towards it doesn't help either. Sure, he claims that it's supposed to be a mistake, but why then the need to revisit it in a completely different universe? _Twice,_ if you count the fact that Batman Beyond's canonicity regarding BTAS wasn't a sure thing until later down the line. It's all too "the writer's barely-disguised fetish" to me.
I think the biggest reason why people may feel off-put about the relationship (myself included) is because if it was meant to come off as a mistake, there wasn't anything in-canon really acknowledging that maybe it was. If anything, all the evidence we seem to find is that it was a mutual breakup if anything. Like, the awkward phone call in TNBA and his stance on work relationships in JL/JLA is the best evidence for it, but even then it doesn't feels like that much evidence for it, when everything else makes it feel like it was a genuine relationship with nothing but it being a mutual breakup. Plus a lot of the reasons as to why Babara stopped being Bat-Girl and why she goes down the life path we see her go into Beyond aren't really affected by that "mistake." Not even a passing mention something like "it made things a little awkward after that" or something. Plus there's the fact it's the ex of his adopted son who is also a work friend, give me an example of that working because that spells a disaster that seems to have not been bad enough to get a mention or allusion to.
Also the exclusion of Diana/Wonder Woman in his pictures is understandable considering Beyond came out before JL/JLU, but the exclusion of Andrea is weird. My guess is due to limitations from not having a model sheet for her in the TNBA style, same with Cathy. But if that's the case was there not even a pic of the one plant clone he married? I feel like she (and the others, at least Andrea) should have been brought up.
I prefer Rick and Kory, anyway. As for the fact that she is his best friend's daughter, if I had a daughter who was risking her life to combat sociopath, violent, lunatics with Bruce; her sleeping with my him would just be a drop in the bucket. As covered in the video, and whats glaringly obvious, Bruce isn't exactly a shining example of sanity.
“Dick,” u mean?
Answer now why Superman has black eyes in Timmverse, even when zoomed up.
Ar...art style...?
I mean, that’s art style. Haha. Are you looking for an in-universe explanation? Because his eyes aren’t literally “missing.”
@ Maybe they should all just have Brock's eyes then. Lol
@@dcauwatchtower also why I asking that, remember that reason Lex Luthor in DCAU looks like that, and not like in any comics of that period (Trump parody) is because they modeled him after Telly Savalas.
BATMAN X CATWOMAN SHOULD HAVE BEEN CANON BATCAT
FOREVER ❤️💖❤️💖
I don't feel too bad for Nightwing. I mean Barbra stopped over at his house once in the comics and Starfire opened the door. So I always thought Batman and Batgirl would be good together.
I believe Bruce Timm when he says he doesn't want to ship Bruce and Babs. He never wanted to ship them. But he's kinda always desperately wanted to softcore rule 34 them.
Batman has a fetish for ladies with names ending in A (Selena, Barbara, Talia, Diana)
PAMELA
Wow. Who’d have thought?
Like Superman and his L.L's
Personally i only hated the killing joke because of how mishandle it was but in term of the regular dcau relationship i didn't like it #batcat4ever but i never found it bad or anger inducing since Bruce for 90% of the time was either backpedaling or rejecting barb on a separate note while i don't like the relationship i do like the idea of barb having a crush on Bruce and dick having an issue with it i hope at some point that dynamic is explored further
For me, I could excuse the age deficient considering they are both concenting adults. If it wasn't for the fact that he watched her grow up. Essentially had the same relationship with her as any of his other kids at that time. But maybe that is just my hang up about it. What raises a eyebrow for me is
3:36
She percieved a relationship with him during college. His son was in college at that time and they could have been dating at that time.
If Bruce didn't have a romantic aspect to thier relationship at that time. Why wouldn't he just dispel the assumption then and there? Plus no matter how short of a stent of time or how serious it got. She dated his son. That still feels wierd. Also having any romantic feelings for her so close from possible during or at the very least super close to after they had dated makes it all the more understandable why it hurt Dick so bad.
To be honest I don't really hate this ship but I don't really love either.
Just indifferent.
I'll NEVER understand Bruce Timm's fascination with that couple, and the fact he used his works to work it in like fanfiction
The guy has some.....strange problematic tastes.
Like Harley and Joker or shipping Harley and Ivy in a very fetishy kind of way.
@@matti.8465 The Fandom ran with Harley and Ivy with little provocation... and isn't Timm on Record stating that the Babs/Bruce relationship isn't Meant to be a 'good thing'
@UCleJWr3bimf2thgE3EZarMQ None of the of the relationships you stated are presented as healthy, Timm himself said so. Guess what you dumbass, not all relationships in real life are healthy
I mean, I think that the age difference is just not an excuse since there're couples with even bigger gaps in between their age (quote the 14 year difference between my father and step-mother). The only thing that I find odd about those 2 is the fact that Babs and Dick dated before; but then again, it was a very short relationship according to the continuity and Bruce and Babs are both very concious adults by the time that they're in a concensual relationship. My veredict: I don't care what they do. It's weird, but there're are even more weirdish relationships that both Bruce and Barbara have been in, without mentioning other relationships of other heroes (Nightwing). Besides, they're all heroes and vigilantes, let them find love and comfort wherever they can, as long as it's legal, mind you. Oh, and the way I see it, Bruce and Jim's relationship is one of a father and son, Jim's kinda a father figure for Brucie Boy sometimes. At least this is my opinion; now, don't think I'm a fan of this ship, 'cos I'm not, but I don't really find a reason why it is terrible. Weird? For sure, horrible? Why?
1) They are not related
2) Yeah, he's older than her, but we would not be considering that if it was the other way around. Just look at Anakin and Padme; nobody complained about their age gap.
3) She's Gordon's daughter. Gordon doesn't have a good relationship with Bruce Wayne, only a strict and somewhat weird partnership( except not really) with Batman. So, while it might be a little weird, Bruce isn't betraying his best friend here because they aren't friends at all, and they never will because he needs to keep his secret identity a secret.
4) Barbara ain't a teenager anymore; she is older now and free to make her choices, like with who she smashes with.
Let me clarify: I do not ship them. I'm not into shipping, but if I had to ship Batman with somebody, then that would be Catwoman. I just don't give a damn about Batman and Batgirl banging together, they found the other attractive and that's it.
Oh, plenty of people complained/complain about the Skywalker age gap 😅 BUT, agreed on everything else
I never got mad at Barberra and Bruce. It felt mutual to me and something I'm sure Gordon wouldn't mind when discussed. Also love me some Harley looking hot!
There is a point where “interesting” doesn’t match with “somthing to explore”
This relationship fits.
For the longest time I was under the impression that Barbara was 16 when she was introduced. Her being 18 at introduction doesn’t change my feelings on this pairing. Her design never screamed “College” student to me. It was too immature a design, especially when compared to any of the other women that showed up as love interests. And how Her interest was shown brings to mind how students often get crushes on their teachers. But it’s Obviously a bad idea to try and make a move on your teacher. Not to mention he’s one of her fathers Best Friends.
It also never seemed like Bruce was genuinely interested. He always came off as “awkward, please not this again” when Babs would flirt. Like he was trying to dodge a bullet. He obviously cared for her, and don’t want to hurt her feelings, but that doesn’t equate to being interested but unwilling to pursue. For Pete’s sake, when she’s first introduced he brought her a teddy bear because he could only remember her as a kid.
All that on Top of the fact she Dated His Kid. It doesn’t matter how short the relationship appeared to be or how long it was between when they broke up and when her and Bruce Hooked up. If we take the comic Continuation into account, Dick and Barbara Got Back Together. He was going to Propose. It obviously was NOT “Puppy love” as they have Babs say in Beyond.
So the relationship didn’t have nearly as much support as people think.
It all comes down to interpersonal relationships. You don’t date your parents friends, you don’t date your kids ex, and you CERTAINLY don’t date someone you met and got too know first as a minor. There a lines you don’t cross.
Even if Bruce Tim says it’s SUPPOSED to be wrong and uncomfortable, doesn’t give it leeway. It’s a black mark on an otherwise amazing animated adaptation.
This is all moot now a days though, since I’ve seen in a couple places that it was retconed to not have happened. Just like the Jason/Talia thing at the end of “Lost Days” was retconed out.
Bruce didn’t bring her a teddy bear, her dad did, and it was her childhood teddy bear. The comic you’re talking about with the proposal isn’t in the same continuity as the shows. James Gordon is as old as Thomas Wayne would be were he alive, according to Bruce, so while they’re good friends he’s also very much not in the same age group. Just tossin’ a couple rebuttals back atcha.
@@dcauwatchtower
Thank you for the clarification on the teddy bear bit, that was me misremembering. While the comic was in a different continuity, it was based heavily on BtAS.
But Gordon’s age doesn’t negate the fact that he a Bruce are friends. Nor does it detract from the fact that when we are introduced to Barbara, Bruce has already met her and went into that while still thinking of her as a teenager very much underage.
The whole point of the relationship was that it was a mistake. It was never portrayed as a good thing.
So I don't see how it's any different than personal problems other heroes had to deal with, like Tony Stark's alcoholism or the love triangle between Cyclops, Wolverine, and Jean Grey.
KingOfMadCows You made me remember Wolverine and The Xmen. Wolverine and Jean had some mutual interest since they met and Jean was still like 16 or 17, but that never turned out, at that time at least.
It isn’t just a personal vice, like alcoholism. He betrayed his own son...
If it's painted as mistake, then I think you could develop an interesting story. But there has to be consequences. I agree that it felt like a mistake in Killing Joke, but there wasn't enough direct acknowledgement of it being a mistake. It just... happened. Bruce also just has MANY creepy interactions with women in general in BTAS and the New Adv; the "you've grown" moment is genuinely revolting.
I always got the feeling that Bruce and Barbra had slept together prior to then events of Mystery of the Batwoman. Something about the way Bruce is hardcore avoiding her. That line from Barbra in the diner always seemed to imply that she and Bruce where never an item, but just that they where lovers.
Mystery of the Batwoman is when it all started. It's obvious they were already dating during that time, Tim knew, Alfred knew. But I think Bruce wasn't avoiding her. He didn't want to go ham with her when there were people around so he used his skills to escape.
@@theprinceofdarkness3250 nah it definitely felt like a one sided attraction.
I have no strong feelings about the ship, personally. Mainly because while I can see how it could happen on paper, the voice acting never sold it to me. It’s the same reason why even though many people ship Batman with Catwoman, I couldn’t really get into it due to the poor chemistry they seemed to have in BTAS. Yes, they have flirty lines but the delivery feels so unnatural that neither of them were ships I was going to root for. But then again, I only ship Batman with Wonderwoman so what do I know?
Batman X Wonder woman should have been Canon WONDERBAT
FOREVER ❤️❤️❤️💖
Batman and Diana forever
Thanks for talking about this I was never a fan of Bruce and Barb I've always prefer Barb and Dick, now thanks to this video I can't understand this relationship and accept it.
Before I was like:
Bruce dating Barb: wired!
Me having a crush on Barb from TNBA: completely normal!!
Well, when not looking at the Batman Beyond show, and judging this from Barbara's perspective, it can be understandable. How many of us had crushes on people over 10 years older than us when we were kids? Then see if you can call this weird/bad/disgusting. Cuz I don't.
There's an exchange between Barbara and Terry in the Batman Beyond episode "A Touch of Curare" where Barbara gets pissed at Bruce for allegedly manipulating Terry into becoming Batman, and Terry's all like "It's what I wanted" and she says "That's what we all thought, at the beginning." I feel like that line has some concerning implications, considering that she and Bruce dated. It certainly sounds like Barbara thinks that Bruce did something wrong.
11:06 at least they were his age, met him as an adult, did not have a teacher/student relationship with him, and did not date his adopted son.
"jeeze would you knock before barg in...
You didn't see anything did you?..."
"No sir, I didn't see you play with your toys..."
"Good".
"Your helmet is so big..."
How can Wonder Woman be 18, when she said she knew the artist of an ancient artifact before they created any major works of art in Paradise Lost?
You've got it all wrong people, Bruce Timm never really cared for the idea of BabsxBruce, the truth is he's secretely been a diehard NightwingxStarfire shipper at heart all this time. He obviously could never find a way to include Kori and display her Dick's love in any of his Batman shows/movies so he did the next best thing by torpedoing the rival ship with Barbara.
I mean think about it who are little kids watching going to be drawn to, the alien girl Robin has a cute romance with on Titans or the chick who left him and fucked his dad, the man an evil genius.
Really?
The thing with me and this pairing is that this version of Batman literally begged his parents for forgiveness when he wanted to live a normal life with Andrea so I really can't see him going for a girl who is half his age and one hi protegees
Thank you for this video! Normally, I would have a problem with this pairing, but I came to realize that the wrongness of the relationship was the point of it. Whenever it's brought up, it's never presented as a good thing. There's also the fact that Bruce is just horrible with relationships with people in general regardless if their romantic or not.
Bruce is not someone you want live with; let alone spend any time with in general. Truthfully, being in the batfamily is just one of the worst fates in almost every version of the DC Universe. You're a crime fighter being led by a man who is mentally eight years old, one of the most stubborn people on the planet, has horrible people skills, and makes bad romantic decisions as well. You're relationship will eventually break down, and you will regret ever having met him to begin with.
What really shows Bruce's greatest character flaw would be in the JLU episode "For the Man Who Has Everything" When the Black Mercy attaches itself to Batman, his greatest desire is to see Joe Chill getting beat up for eternity. His ideal world never moves beyond that moment. Dick, Barbara, Tim, Alfred, and the other members of the Justice League aren't part of it. Bruce is so stuck in the past that it comes at ruining his present and making a horrible future. Bruce is his own worst enemy.
Lastly, I want to ask you something. Wonder Woman is 18 years old at the start of Justice League!? You mean chronologically 18 and not just physically 18 due to her immortality? I know John Stewart referred to her as a "rookie in the tiara," but I thought that was due to her inexperience and never being off Themyscira before. I never thought it meant being an actual inexperienced teenager. If Diana really is just 18 years old, then that makes her the youngest of the founding members of the Justice League, and Barbara Gordon is older than her. That certainly puts a whole new light on the DCAU.
Not a fan of the pairing, but understood why it happened in DCAU. I do love how Mystery of Batwoman showed how much Tim and Alfred liked to take shots at Bruce over it. I can just imagine how much shit Bruce got over dating Babs from everyone around him.
I hate it so much. I think catwoman and batman should be together
Eeyup!
I always thought only was Wonder Woman an adult in appearance, but also older because of her history of living through the history, with Steve Trevor and what not. So she'd be older than Batman
I actually enjoyed the concept in the DCAU. Was it messed up? yes, but only in the sense Bruce was Dick's father basically. But it was very human. And it's made better with Batman Beyond and the batwoman movie. The fact he's kinda avoiding Barb because he knows it's wrong, or how in Beyond its implied she's the one he thinks of most. People kinda play up how much of a "father figure" Bruce is to her. Hell in the DCAU he never even really IS a father figure to her. Bruce makes mistakes, he’s not perfect. It works for his character and doesn’t contradict Barb’s either.
This is what happens when people think emotionally instead of rationally.
MLPFiMBrony2232 exactly. Bruce MAKES ROMANTIC MISTAKES. It’s true to his character.
Wonder Woman was really only 18 at the start of Justice League ?? Why ?
WONDER WOMAN WAS HOW OLD IN JL?!?!?!?!
We have sinned
Batgirl and Dick Grayson's Robin/Nightwing have been an on again/off again item for decades and fans loved seeing them together because the chemistry was so natural. Putting her with Batman just grosses everyone out. Yuck!
Personally I never had a problem with Bruce hooking it up with Babs. But maybe that's because I grew up on the DCAU and seeing it play out organically over the years probably helped me accept their relationship. I think that's the reason why most had a hard time accepting that scene from "The Killing Joke" as that relationship didn't enjoy the same time afforded to the DCAU to develop that relationship.
The ship is wrong because
1- she is a work partner, batman himself stated why that's a bad move
2- she is Jim Gordon's daughter, one of batman's closest allies who doesn't know his daughter is bat girl. There is no way he would approve of it.
3- she is grayson's ex, makes Bruce come off as a backstabbing piece of garbage
4- yeah, she is LEGAL but still...still a wide age difference. You would think bruce would find that wrong
5- there was never any chemistry outside of the comic writer's weird fetishes.
So yeah...no
Yes it is one if not the worst thing on the DCAU
This was such a good and unbiased view. Great video and analysis.
The concept of the ship being wrong is completely irrational.
Age gap - She is an adult who readers are completely fine with allowing to risk her life contstantly but balk at her ability to wisely choose romantic interests?
Gordon - Gordon is older than Bruce and their is no moral issue with dating a friend's daughter if you care about them.
Dick - The Richard question is weird since he and barb are wildly different depending on the series and medium. For my money they make a terrible couple anyway.
4:00-4:06 IDK lol to me that implies that something happened whether it be full blown sex or just a kiss. Seems like something happened and she just took it as " oh were together now". lol