Origins of the Planetary Myths in Astrology
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- Опубликовано: 9 июл 2024
- Discussing the origins of the myths associated with the planets in astrology, and how the Greek gods were assigned to the planets by students of Plato in the 4th century BCE, with astrologers Demetra George and Chris Brennan.
Early in the Greek tradition the planets either didn't have names or were given descriptive names that matched their appearance, and it wasn't until later that they were given the names of gods.
It wasn’t until the time of the philosopher Plato and his students in the 4th century BCE that we see that Greek authors begin to give the planets specific names based on the gods of Greek religion and mythology ( i.e. Hermes/Mercury, Aphrodite/Venus, Ares/Mars, Zeus/Jupiter, Kronos/Saturn).
The names first appear in the works of philosophers surrounding Plato's Academy in Athens: Plato, Philip of Opus, Eudoxus of Cnidus, and Aristotle.
The full set of names seems to first appear in a philosophical text called the Epinomis, which is thought to have been written by Plato's student Philip of Opus.
The names appear to have been chosen deliberately partially based on matching them to the older names that the Mesopotamian astrologers had given the planets in their pantheon (e.g. the god Hermes was assigned to the planet Mercury because Hermes was the Greek god of writing, and this matches the god the Mesopotamians assigned to Mercury which was called Nabu who was also a god of writing).
Our goal with this episode was to talk about this process of naming the planets after the gods, compare the Mesopotamian and Greek myths for the planets, and discuss the impact this had on astrology.
We spend the first 52 minutes setting up the problem and talking about the historical context and the issues involved, and then for the next hour and a half we go through and compare the Mesopotamian and Greek myths for each of the planets to see the ways in which they are consistent or inconsistent with each other. Finally after that we have a 30 minute segment drawing some conclusions and wrapping things up.
In some ways this episode acts as the third in a trilogy of episodes I've done over the past month in exploring the impact of Platonism on astrology, with the Lots episode being the first and the Proclus episode the second, and in this one we take things even further by tracing things right back to Plato and his students in the 4th century BCE.
The episode is important then because it addresses some very core issues about what do the planets mean in astrology and how did those meanings develop, and it takes us back to the very roots of western astrology and helps us to get another step closer to understanding where this system came from and how it first came together.
This is episode 436 of The Astrology Podcast:
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Demetra's Time-Lords Workshop
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Timestamps
00:00:00 Introduction
00:02:46 Premise of the discussion
00:05:05 The Mesopotamian tradition
00:19:30 Greek involvement in astrology
00:26:43 Plato and the Academy
00:42:20 Philip of Opus and the Epinomis
00:52:09 Myths of the Planets comparison begins
00:53:50 The Sun
01:05:23 The Moon
01:22:20 Mercury
01:45:10 Venus
02:00:20 Mars
02:10:20 Jupiter
02:22:20 Saturn
02:33:13 Ouranos, Kronos, Zeus
02:35:28 Concluding remarks
03:00:40 Demetra’s time-lord retreat
03:03:37 Credits
I saw the tweet and couldn't click on this fast enough, 60th viewer on here.. woot!! love seeing Demetra. Thanks Chris!
“All of Western philosophy is but a footnote to Plato.” Quote is from Alfred North Whitehead. De Santillana posits in "Hamlet's Mill" that some myths are astronomical myths. Regular people can simply enjoy the stories but they contain important hidden lore about the planets, stars and cosmos that can be known by more educated people.
Diogenes Laertius, Plutarch, and Suetonious are ALL gossipy. Doesn't necessary mean they're wrong.
Good conversation!
Thank you Demetra and Chris. Have you ever looked at your Synastry between the both of you? Every episode you have done together is 🤌🏼
Demetra is such a blessing, thank you for this
1:40:29 Yup! Me too. I've started devoting a lot more time to learning more about the culture and practices of earlier time periods to help me better understand the symbols of each planet, synastry, and houses. Astrology is so beautiful 💛
I have been an astrologer since the age 15, and this is one of the best videos I have ever seen... all signed up for Demetra's retreat. Thank you both so much
I really love what you are doing - restoring/maintaining this incredible body of work into the context of history, grounding it and giving it a presence into the future that is verifiable. The muse of Astrology can continue to shine bright and make a presence alongside all her other sisters. Thankyou very much Demetra and Chris
Demetra , how wonderful too that she is named after a goddess.
More Demetra, please! 🥰✨ Always a treat & wealth of knowledge when she’s on. 🙏🏼
This is one of those episodes that makes me feel so full of awe that I get to be an astrologer at this time. Thank you so much for the work you do.
33:28 - Plato’s description of how new lives are chosen reminds me of a perception I had years ago while in a state medical doctors would call manic. I visualized the human as a pod traveling in “space”. With each progression through the spheres, layers were shed and aspects of self were confronted. If the person couldn’t progress any further (towards the sun), a marker was made and they were returned back to Earth through the Moon.
The end of Mercury section: Aaah! Don’t stop!!! I’ve been super curious about this too! Plato’s model vs. Current model of solar system. 😭
A wonderfully rich podcast. As always thank you
as a greek i 'm so excited about this discussion✨
I wanna learn Greek so badly. I also gotta go there soon.
Most enjoyable podcast.
I was not familiar with the author but I am definitely looking forward to look into her work.
I always wonder how some writers can see beyond the scope of what other do, that's what I was thinking while listening.
Although we are aware about this mythos,
her deep understanding seems to be of an
intuitive nature, like (as I believe) when the soul of the world that carries all memories in time, looks upon us with grace and enlightens our understanding, then all pieces just fit perfectly.
The host is also a well informed and charming conversationalist, looking foward to know more about him.
Good job.
I am glad some people are witness to ancient days and can make factual statements on who was first, chicken or the egg.
Fascinating!!! Thanks for the great content as usual. You two are very much appreciated.
Can't wait to see Demetra at NORWAC!
Lore from Demetra, YES!!! 🥰🥰🥰
Absolutely fascinating topic, and increasingly relevant as modern astrologers are almost entirely reliant on myth to discuss the significations of every little orbiting pebble they find in the solar system. I honestly get lost in all the dwarf planet talk, that's why I love your channel ☺
Love it when you have the GOAT on 😍
Extraordinary 🌟 Thank You Demetra & Chris. ❤
I’ve been doing a lot of research into the different iterations of Mesopotamian pantheon of deities (so much syncretism as time went on!), but I thought it was particularly interesting to hear Demetra being up this point: that Ninurta, or “Saturn,” could be seen as rejoining in the 12th because he was believed to *protect* against the maladies of the 12th. As a long-time trad astrologer, it has been incredibly eye-opening to explore some of the more ‘potentially protective’ significations of Saturn thru the lens of Ninurta. I wish we had more insight into how our Babylonian predecessors saw the planets, because as much as I respect our Hellenic-period astrologers, I feel an innate lacking around how they characterized Saturn. Not to say that Saturn isn’t a dark, heavy, cold planet, but more that there’s a certain depth missing… at any rate, it has been a delight to read about how Ninurta was seen not only as an agricultural deity, or a tamer of the wilderness, but also as a deity capable of releasing humans from the bonds of human sickness, chasing away evil spirits who could sap people’s energy, + release people from demons. It’s so easy to see the 12th in the latter descriptions! We might not believe in evil spirits or ‘demons’ the way that many ancient peoples did, esp the role they were seen as playing in illness for thousands of years, but it’s still cool to explore from an archetypal perspective. Ty again for this brilliant episode!!
Awesome episode! Super interesting! ✨✨✨
In my natural medicine studies, Plato was a healer first and philosopher second. I always find it so peculiar how that is vastly overlooked and nullified.
Jah & Jahes love. Wow! That's good to know. Can you please share the link to the work that discusses Plato as a healer? Blessed love.
You both have answered so many questions I've been having
Stoked for this duo again!! 💜🤘🏼
I would like to express my gratitude for the time and effort you both put into preparing this. It was enlightening for me. Thinking about the Kemetic deities and their influence, I noticed that Het-Heru, the goddess of love, cheerfulness, and music, later shares similarities with Inanna, truly interesting topic
Such beautiful learning. Combined, you both are such great expressions of the wholeness of Astrology. Thank you for all your efforts that brought this awesome podcast forward!
omg I'm reading her book right now too what a treat.
Ninurta/Chronos ruling irrigation and making the boundaries of the Tigris-Euphrates also connects with his ruling (the hitherto mysterious) waterside activities.
Thank you very much ;Chris and Demetra ❤️interesting and learning
Exceptional! Deep and thorough, every astrologer should listen to this video...
Thank you I love the work you do ❤ it helps to learn the old chess pieces of life. It helps me figure out the truth, and that is everyone made a big messy ball to untangle. This kind of work helps very much. ❤
Thank you so much for this delightful podcast. Lots of love to both of you ❤🎉
My natal Aquarius moon in the 9th house resonates with this. 🙏
Kudos and Congrats for your incredible breakthroughs and potential awesome breakthroughs! I hope you put it all in a book!
Yesss a fresh upload!!!
Fascinating and informative. Great episode.
Thank you, fascinating episode. It would be great to see Demetra's workshop available as webinar to purchase for those you can't attend the retreat:)
Jah & Jahes love. Yes, that would be nice.
So special to listen to both of you. Thank You very much!
So much interesting mythology loved it
How wonderful! 👏👏👏I could easily stay 6 more hours! My ADD suddenly stopped 😂!
Thank you!
Jah & Jahes love. I LOVED every minute of this podcast and I appreciate all of the ones that I've watched these past 3 years since I discovered your RUclips channel. I cannot wait to afford to join your Patreon so I can catch these episodes live. I haven't been emotionally well and it took a while to watch this but I am so happy that I did. I also can't wait to read her book and yours as well. (I have 10 years of episodes to catch up with!). Blessed love.#1804#Ayiti#ToutMounseMoun#AbolishCPS#AbolishPoverty#ProChoice#RawVeganforLife#HRES40NOW#220YearsFREE#HandsOffAyiti#TheAstrologyPodcast
what a great reading, especially re being responsible for our own healing rather than projecting it onto a potential partner, thanks Sassy x
Great conversation😃👌🏻
Thank you so much 🙏🏻🪷
You're both welcome to borrow my copy of "A Grammar of Akkadian" anytime 🖤
So I'm curious with Ouranos being given to the fixed stars sphere, I wonder if we could settle the "Uranus is associated with astrology" vs Mercury by saying Uranus is associated with fixed star astrology while Mercury is astrology in general?
This episode (plus Demetra’s books) may come in handy soon. I took a break on researching a method/system to decide on further reading lists to discover after buying books that I’ve already read them. How’s that for a full moon in virgo with Mercury in Pisces? 🤪
I’m deciding if that’s a signal to actually start the system, re-read those books now (different translations), or read another book I just found first. This episode topic was referred to as the Taurus age was a change in consciousness where the Luciferic consciousness began, aries was the development of the pagan cultures to use that intellect to master will impulses which eventually spawned Christianity (this says Aries, not Pisces just for the framework). Chris would like their definition of free will and it’s a common view among astrologers. I’ve debated the terminology internally but find it too important. Lucifer would be experienced as the subjective conscious “I” and intellect that can either become egotism and arrogance or a powerful desire for unity if out of balance; the terminology is important as the west would associate bad spirit with Lucifer and the 12th house significations. The 12th symbolizing (at its core) isolated experience that can deceptive and manipulative while also spiritual if balanced makes more sense than the unconscious or collective unconscious since the entire birth chart would symbolize unconscious “will”. Free will isn’t nullifying the chart, it’s learning from those experiences and intellectually having freedom from your own will forces through blind instinct.
There’s no way you can read these books and not think “Jung absolutely read these”.
Keep up the good work, these are my favorite types of episodes.
Thank you ❤
Woo Demetra George an Chris
Thank you
I would really really love to see a coverage of how a lot of the old testament stories are really symbolic mythologies of the planetary cycles - i.e Samsons hair being cut by the virgin (the suns rays weakening through virgo). Jesus being born on the 25th of December and then how he is resurrected from the underworld aster 3 days on Easter etc..
You guys are epic, thanks so much for everything you've shared ❤❤❤
Demetra
Have you seen the Odysseus news yet?
1:11:11 woww where in the torah is abraham said to be the bringer of the knowledge of astrology to the jews???
I think it's more a tradition, maybe in the Talmud, than actually in the Torah though it implies it by Gd telling him to look at the stars - that's how many descendants he will have (Jews and Arabs).
And yes, Abram was from Ur of Chaldea, and Chaldean was the term the Greeks used for astrologer. I think the legend of Abram smashing his dad's idols has been interpreted to mean they were astrologers.
And it's certainly the first recorded case of relocational astrology! And here we are ...
Jah & Jahes love. I thought that Abraham was a Jew? When she said that I was kinda confused.
@@maroonrebel yes, Abraham (and Sarah) were the first Jews.
This is exciting!
❤
👍
10:31 So curious what extra info about entrail divination was taken out!!!
1:51:50 Jesus, Mary, Mary
Hi Chris, I recently read in a post that you can tell the gender of your children by looking at whether the ruling planet of the 5th house is a "masculine" or "feminine" planet. They said they got this information from you. I have to say, in all my family synastry case studies, I don't find this to be true. It's also worth noting that it promotes a heteronormative, cis gender world view that dismisses the existence of nonbinary and transgender individuals. A perspective that has no basis in either biology or anthropology according to my college bio and anthro classes. I would really appreciate a clarification from you. I have always admired your work and I thought you to be a much more inclusive teacher. I personally read gender in my practice as largely symbolic of energetic signatures rather than literal expressions of gender as we all have masculine, feminine and neutral energies. I can't in good conscience support anyone with a narrow-minded and exclusionary perspective, especially when nonbinary teenagers are being beaten to death in school bathrooms. Rather than have some rando on Facebook tell me what you think about the subject, I would love to hear your perspective directly. I am a fiercely loyal ally to the nonbinary and LGBTQ+ community and I would never want to support a platform that perpetuates narratives that put them at risk of harm or deny their existence by default.
Everyone is entitled to their own personal beliefs and opinions. You sound ridiculous and you're literally bullying someone over the use of their terminology!
@@bertman1983I didn't bully anyone. I asked a question to clarify whether I am supporting someone who is in alignment with my values. Which is something most principled people do. I don't support racists, I don't support transphobes or homophobes, I don't support misogynists. Not sure why that is problematic for anyone but bigots. 🙄
Jah & Jahes love.@@caseyjones1930 As a woman who has experienced pregnancy 5 times, I would like to know what your PC (politically correct) way of referring to babies who are born with vaginas and penises? I don't believe in chemical or surgical manipulation of the natural body/state in any way. And, I am a (High) Raw Vegan.