I didn’t make the mistake, our “scheduling personnel” did. In the shop I work I’m the only manual mill worker. I run two Bridgeport mills with ProtoTRAK retrofit attachments. The retrofits are different but each have their Pros/Cons. I was asked one day that an order of 5 parts that I had on my table be given to a CNC worker because “He has nothing to do.” We are working 50-60 hr weeks because the CNC department is so far behind and still have a mountain of work to do. So I agree to let him take the parts. He had to write programs and perform two operations on these parts. I could have gotten them done myself before he had the programs wrote. So, he takes my 5 piece order and I’m stuck running back to back, 300 piece orders putting me behind but “That’s where those parts are ran.” That’s the logic in the place I work.
@@DerkJester you either need to move shop, or fix the fuckin CNC machinist up cause thats poor. Like fuck i see it at my own work, people saying they have nothing to do, so the boss gives them the "good jobs" cause if they have nothing to do well all theyre work is done right? So they end up getting jobs that are just not for them, like he shouldve flipped it and said no can i run more than 5 lets say 50. Or at my work, this one bloke has to step up now but hes scared and cant. Its kinda sad to see a trademan fail like that after being cocky and all.
It’s always good to have manual equipment and ability to add capacity! Some of my guys will pick away at making parts manually when they have cycle time, even if we usually do it in the CNC!
Tool & Die Repair & mold making & making spare part on the fly manual can not be replaced & cnc is excellent for production & exotic metal.. machining ..
I've been reflecting on this and the argument of manual machines being necessary for the repair industry is spot on. CNC and manual can't be compared since CNC's are there just to MAKE money while manual machines are there to SAVE money - either yours or the customer's depending on what you do. And with the availability crisis we're going through right now, I hope we will again understand the need for the repair industry.
I was a great manual machinist. However, once I figured out how to program and run a CNC, I dreaded using the manual mill. The CNC was so much tighter and accurate even when jogging it manually.
Can not replace i highly skilled tool & die maker or moldmaker repairs / builds designs & modification one of a kind dies or molds with bench work & broad knowledge of all machine shop equipment & machines ..I worked in both cnc & tool&die shops ...good video ..
I have a manual machine shop with the exception of a CNC plasma table. I'm working towards building my CNC capabilities as I want more customer opportunities.
Was a manual machinist for 12 years, horizontal mill, vertical mill & lathe. Now the last 25 years cnc mill & cnc lathe. They both have their spot for jobs in a shop. I still have a manual mill & lathe in my job shop. The mill is a great drill press and time to time a quick mill job. The lathe we use for deburring, polishing, or a quick turn job for a walk in job.
When you buy a 30k cnc, your not buying a 30k machine, your buying a 5k machine, with 25k of computers, wires and servos.... We paid 1k for a lodge and shipley lathe with a 12 inch chuck and 7 feet between centers, our cnc lathe was 30k, and it has a 6 inch chuck and 10 inches of z travel, with no tail stock. Cnc is for automation, manual is when you need the larger machine with more capacity. We have regular jobs that are too big for our cnc mill, but the cnc mill can still do first op, which is complicated and has five tool changes, but the second op has to be done on the Bridgeport, and I can run the Bridgeport while the cnc mill is running its 28 minute program unsupervised.
I prefer to use files and cold chisels..... As an engineer, I've used manual machines for prototyping/modifying and one-offs but for production its almost always CNC. However, there was one job cross drilling bolt holes in the ends of aluminum tubing, where a good drill press fixture could probably outpace a CNC.
I think there’s always a spot for a manual in a shop we’ve got a old hardinge in the back ever once and a while it comes in handy. I do recommend checking out Overbeck machines they make a little deburring lathe it fits on a bench top.
An interesting I never actually thought of using a benchtop lathe for deburring - I always wondered what the application beyond hobby use would be for those!
Definitely can and I've done it before - I'd still prefer to do some manual tasks on a manual mill however - the ability to 'feel' the tool as you peck for instance can be critical for finicky jobs.
Engineers are designing stuff around CNC machines now. The times have changed. Not to say there is no place for a manual machine, but the need is going further away from manual the more that time goes on.
I'd say this is a very fair assessment. I'd also point out that some engineers like to design stuff around machine capabilities that don't even exist in this reality - but that's another conversation for another day!
Manual Machinist...Gray Haired Guy...Take care of him...learn from him...keep your mouth shut when he is talking....good luck hiring one or finding one. Thanks Ian...great job!
I had a surface grinder and a lathe when i was running a job shop The rest of it was all CNC and i was considering changing the grinder to semi-CNC before the local death spiral happened and i had to close down
cool.mention of the american precision museum in windor vermont near the longest wooden covered bridge between windsor vermont and cornish new hampshire.
It was amazing man! Vermont was such a cool town - so much history there. Really recommend everyone interested in the manufacturing trades to check it out!
@@iansandusky417 it is amazing windsor vermont is a constitution state one of the 13 colonies. the precision museum was a state armory. it was powered by water.power and over head power belts that would be outlawed by safety board for health and safety. i am from and old school where it is safe until it ain't. but safety is the eye of the safety officer the museum opens in may and closes on halloween day. when they solve the heating and snow removal challeges may be they will remain open during ski season. the halloween closing there has been a model show and a swap meet in the community center and a parade for and of veterans on the old state route 5 before interstatc I91 was built parallel to.route 5. but shorter and straighted with bigger and higher bridges allowing foe the highway speeds that.we enjoy today. you also had Springfield vermont another usa manufacturing center with lamson comparator. lovejoy tool st johnsbury and fair banks scale. the connecticut river valley tool.centers. in days of old and newer smaller tooling centers today. ever changing and always changing with the time the steamtown train and trolley was a place to visit in bellows falls vermont now it is in scranton Pennsylvania with steam town electric trolley museum and iron making stone charcoal burning iron furnaces near the Lackawanna coal mines and museums and probably more visit them if you like you will not be disappointed
I have come up in the mid 2000s running mostly CNCs. With the advent of tool room mills and lathes with semi open box designs and easy to use controls/programming software i find it hard to justify putting anything on a manual machine. By the time you set up anything on a manual the job can be programmed and documented and done right with less guess work, maybe a slightly longer setup time but far more reliability.
They are both tools. The choice of which one to use is going to be influenced not only by what the task is, but also what the individual is more efficient at using for the specific task.
That wasn’t a “I have the sharpest drill bit comment” btw. And btw I can’t even sharpen a drill bit and I respect people that do aerospace and defense work. But I really think what needs to be focused on is not manual vs CNC, but rather machinist vs. machinist and I think that what everyone would find in machinist vs. machinist is that everyone has something to share or trade secrets on how they program, or take a short cut in the race, that knocks hours off a job, etc. As long as the information doesn’t include details about defense industry parts or trade secrets for North American including Canadian and Mexican manufacturers. Or what not. Manual machinist work is not more difficult than CNC though. It all depends on how compassionate the person who trains you is. Most guys that run manual lathes can produce advanced parts (4 tools), and they are going to find a way to do a long production job faster than the kid straight out of trade school who’s on the CNC lathe. That doesn’t mean you’re going to get fired btw. Most shops are just looking for guys that have integrity in their lives which leads to employees who don’t complain and who work well with others and combined with a strong desire to learn/interest in learning this trade. If you are known to have integrity in real life and you’re not an outcast in society shops will pay you good money and teach you and let you get hung up for 6 hours on something like cutting jaws or writing a simple program or whatever even on a manual machine. And if you have integrity and can work well with others people won’t let you get hung up more than a couple times and you’ll learn the trade quickly.
i started on manuals so can see the benefit of both , we use the manual mills to do the one off simple parts, but saying that i try and plan them into the work when the cnc is doing a job with the tools needed set for another part so only a 2 min switch to do the one off . on turning , i wouldn't want to piss about using a steady rest on a cnc with a long shaft not that i ever have, it would be on a manual lathe with a DTI chasing the taper,
Oh yeah I hear you there - we actually used to have a real big lathe with a 60” capacity and I’m a little sad we got rid of it a few years ago - it was a boat anchor but we did stuff on there I wouldn’t even consider getting near the CNC lathe!
hi this topic has come up just at the right time i am a manual machinist/tool and die maker with 30 yrs experience i worked at the same company for 18yrs i only have a few years to go before i retire . over the last 5 or so years the company has move more into CNC witch i have never worked with, my boss is telling me if i don't learn CNC then its time for me to pack my tools . So is there still a place in this industry for me and at this late stage of my working career and will i get another job .
Oh there are most definitely still shops out there who utilize manual equipment, and some that still run exclusively on manual equipment! They tend to be for fairly specialized stuff or one-off type jobs - but they’re out there. I’ve had the chance to go to many shops over the last few years across North America, and I can think of exactly two that didn’t have some kind of manual equipment that was used regularly.
@@iansandusky417 thanks mate there are very few job shops left were i am in Adelaide South Australia i starting to think about semi retirement and doing some jobs from home as i have enough equipment to get me started. its just a bit disappointing that things are going to end this way
I run a 54" and 42" VTL Bullard from the 1940's. It has been well maintained and runs wonderfully. They're the only machines in a shop full of CNC's that can machine parts after they have been welded multiple times. The parts are just too big, and oddly shaped for the CNC machines we have.. We heavily rely on Manual machines in my shop, for that reason, and others.
There doesn't seem to be much information available, but what are the typical tolerances on a used job shop CNC? Are they subjectively speaking crude or precision tools? I suspect it's not even comparable to a toolroom mill or lathe but I might be wrong? There was a time when manufacturing machines were big, bulky and with limited setup possibilities but they were just that, used for manufacturing specific parts. Toolroom machines were located in the background, reserved for precision work and making tools.
I’d say once you get past the hobby-rated stuff, anything decent should be able to hold a couple of tenths all day long - but it’s a bit like asking how long is a piece of string when it comes to used stuff, unfortunately. A 15 year old machine run by guys who knew what they were doing, properly maintained it, didn’t crash the spindle, etc will be far more accurate than a 5 year old machine that got clapped by apprentices for its entire service. I personally think buying cheaper new is more reliable than buying a more expensive machine at a used discount, because you can never really tell just by looking at them how they’re going to perform, even with a full service history.
I have two used cnc Fadal mills. My first i paid 8k for and the second 10.5k. I do close tolerance parts and never see a machine issue. Great way top start a shop on a budget.
Another pro for manual is.... The maintenance costs is way lower.... Cnc's are more frequently put out of action from some electronic component going wrong........ Since manuals are cheaper machines, you can still make parts slower than a cnc would and still make a better profit off of a manual
Oh man, I can relate to this. Just had the waycovers blow on my biggest mill - there's it out of action for the day. Fix it, and then the coolant / oil separator decides to crack on me - leaving a nice coolant lake behind the machine while we wait for parts. What a mess!
I've been strictly a manual Tool and die maker ever since I started my career over 10 years ago and honestly, I wish that I knew how to program so I could get more work done since I'm the only toolmaker in my shop now. Being able to build die components on a manual machine while having other components being made on a CNC would be like having another toolmaker in the shop. I think it would help make my life at work a bit easier. Maybe someday.
especially since you can pick up an old Fadal cnc mill for under 10k and add a world of possibilities to Your operation. I am also a tool and diemaker with my own little shop. I even use the cnc mill for flycutting die blocks to size in MDI mode. You have coolant and the mess is in the machine. I need all my machines though, manual and cnc. Try putting a tool post grinder on a cnc lathe.
@@danneumann3274 you can also get something like a Hermle C600U for ~30k I just recently bought one from poland for ~32 including shipping after being told of it on YT
As someone starting on their own. I have a deep appreciation for both. As Ian suggested, it's super subjective but from a personal perspective I wouldn't buy a manual machine these days. My thinking is why would I allocate precious space and funds to a manual machine when a cnc alternative can do the same job + all the benefits of automation. Yes sometimes a manual mill is nice to have but for me I don't do enough to justify it. Cost is another factor. Cnc Mills and lathes can be purchased for very humble sums of money these days. For instance my bridgeport interact 720x vmc was €3000 a half decent knee mill would have been similar in cost
>heated debate Both have their place. Guy called Stephan Gotteswinter (yes, he has a youtube) holds microns in a basement shop on manuals. Go to any industry show to see the CNC side of things.
@@iansandusky417 NYC CNC toured his shop (literally his basement, bloody germans and their native 240 3 phase), 2 years ago. It's what got my attention in the first place. Although admittedly I haven't watched any of his videos in a while. He's got some cool stuff that you don't see every day (the tracer is fantastic, it's what he uses to make TINY little titanium torx screw heads, or at least he did, dunno if he's upgraded to actual CNC for that). He's also a fair service (read: top tier) guy, he's retrammed/ releveled all his machines to PHENOMENAL accuracies.
He's doing that as a side business. When you need to make 5 pieces of a precision part, it probably pays off to have some guy do it as a side job. Not saying there's anything wrong with it - rather saying he won't be able to spit out 200 of those every day
Everyones experience depends on what type of machines they were exposed to. I wish I can work on them all! 😂 I just love this trade, minus all the politics! I respect both sides, manual and CNC! Skills are skills no matter what you use! Every shop needs to have both!
Best thing you can do is just ignore the politics and always try to learn. Politics are simply from every machinist in the world thinking they are the best. Lol
Personally I think the two year degree program for advanced manufacturing that spends an entire year teaching manual machines is a waste of the students money. 99% of them are going to get a job running a CNC that’s just the way it is. The job has evolved into a more tech enabled job with CMM CNC CAM CAD etc, and I believe they should be more focused on the future of Machining rather than the past.
I think that you can do a job on a manual machine if it is not too complex but if you have a job that requires many different operations and the tolerances are tight then I would say use a CNC even if it is only a one off.
For sure! Especially as I'm a guy who is more proficient with CNC vs manual, if I have something that's super tight tolerance, I personally will likely lean on the CNC even for one part - since I feel more comfortable dialing it in (with wear offsets or what have you) on a CNC instead of trying to do it manually. Thanks for watching!
cnc machines are criticized only by those who have never bothered to learn them. They are intimidated by them but their pride doesnt allow them to acknowledge the facts. Both machines have their place in a modern machine shop. (Try picking up a thread on a cnc to recut). A machinist can only be a good judge of the proper place manual or cnc when He (or She) is proficient at both. I would also mention that cnc 's have fundamentally changed the design of parts, parts are much more complicated in regards to the profile as there is not much added cost associated with these more complicated designs. also with cnc You can load a part and get so much done in one vise clamp. all the operations done within this set up will be spot on.
I work in a tool making company (carbide end mills, spot drills etc). We have CNC and manual machines that both get used heavily. In my experience CNC is hands down better for making new tools, especially in large batches. Whereas manual is sometimes better suited or even the only way for modifying or regrinding existing tools. CNC is 80% of our business but why leave that other 20% on the table.
The biggest drawback to cnc I can see is the mystery metal scenarios. Example castings. One void filled with sand can ruin a machine or bits faster than you can blink if not watched constantly. Which defeats point to multiple cnc. Fluid blockages, and other mystery machine scenarios crop up. Manual you will notice even using an auto feed. One advantage is you can have watchers at each machine than only need to know when to hit the stop button. The machinist can then come by and fix what needs to be fixed, changing them from machinist to basically a machine service man. Plus to cnc = many are lathe and mill in one. Hard to reproduce some operations on any other single machine. Complex rotary valves with switchback channels. Plus to manual = automatic adjustment for machine wear. All machines wear over time. Cnc machines will wear and have issues that, over a batch , can have widely varying tolerances. Manual machine runs just won’t as the machinist will adjust as he does each part. Aside from factories there really is not a field for machinist that will use a cnc very much. Why because they are doing repair work. Unless your doing the exact same repair to hundreds of same part you’ll spend more time setting up machines than doing actual work. All that being said. Dodge brothers engine and drivetrain factory, before it was part of Chrysler corporation, had hundreds of auto machines running parts unattended. Automatic complex gear and cog driven instead of a computer but still an early cnc. Many many early car part for Chrysler, chevy, ford, and many others were made on those machines.
and this old automated engine machines with gang drills would beat any single spindle cnc even today. How can a modern cnc compete with a machine with twenty drills all coming in at the same time
You will if it's really specific work, I used to work at a place that had CNC lathes that had 3 meters in swing. Before these, we were sort of the only ones able to make the part and as such, manual machines were perfectly fine despite the days it takes for each part to be made.
Each machine has a place. We make repair parts, most of the time one only part, this is what most manual shops specialise in. A CNC machine would just slow us down, code and set up for 1or2 parts would not be practical. Now if a customer wants 100 pieces, then we send him to a CNC shop.
I prefer cnc/ manual. An ez-trac or accu-rite is the best of both worlds. The cnc colchester triumph is a manual/cnc with conversational software. It will cut threads hell of lot fast than a manual Machine.
you did mention lightly the reality of manual machinist , skilled very skilled it is a art with your hands some thing you create ,same for the difrence for production shop vs job shop. in a job shop from sawing the steel to building the crate to ship it to a rig ,you alone do that every step , that is a job shop, your a production shop OPERATOR , you are more of a white collar computer programer , we in the dirt and stand back and say i made that , when you can make a drilling head with a boring bar your skilled. enough of that ,but keep in mind ,you and the cnc and nc put the skilled workers on the un employment line and have also worked yourself into running parts for nothing to keep work, so the sad song is you made it and now you dwell in it. i tried cnc , ran a tawkasa and ll7 , hated it , took a whole day some times to setup and run first part, then when you did same shit for days, the talk of running more than 1 machine would have got your block knocked off back in the 80's hahah. all a side i still enjoy my old trade sweap under the carpet from the 70's and 80's .watch machine shop vids and you know every time i see coolant i can still smell that nasty crap hahah, good show man like how you bring other shops into your channel
You can use an CNC manually. Or hand code a facing operation very easy. Don't thinks CNC's are hands free. You need a skilled mind to make something beautiful.
I did 5-6 months on a manual mill before starting CNC, Imo spending more then 2-3 weeks on a manual learning the very basics is a waste. Not only are you behind in CNC you will have to spend time unlearning bad habits from the manual.. If you run a modern industrial CNC like a Bridgeport you are doing it wrong. I work in a tool and die department so almost every part is singles or very low numbers, we have thrown out every manual mill but one that is collecting dust in a corner but i cant think of any job worth doing on it. If you got your machine setup for single parts CNC is faster, i got 60 of the most common tools ready in the magazine and macros for every common operation in the cam program. For instance if i need to put a couple of threaded holes in a part i just click on them in the cam program and select my macro for that thread and hit ok and send it to the machine. This way you have very short setup times and i can have simple parts probed and a program sent in 3-4 minutes. From that point the CNC runs circles around a manual. Facing with 2hp and getting chips in your hair and all over the floor vs facing with a 40hp spindle.. Drilling with spot drills then switching to a twist drill and pecking your way though the part vs drilling with a self centering TSC carbide drill that blast straight through the part with no pecking needed etc..
Try doing this. Go work for a OEM job shop or mom and pop job shop that makes parts for OEMs or for manufacturers directly that lack machining capacity and/or capabilities. So pretty much anything non aerospace or defense oriented. Just true to the roots machining for American industrialist patterns or trends dictated by Adam Smiths invisible hand or by government infrastructure spending giving way to climbs in certain companies industrial patterns sometimes. Ok. In this realm of work, precision may not be as key as aerospace or defense work, but quick production programming is must know how to do along with synchronized setups, etc. This is called using a CNC machine like a CNC lathe as a manual machine like a manual lathe. Quick conversational programs into the control to face off .100 of stock, Jab a quick .069 deep undercut for relief and turn a diameter to OD 9.900 mm, and, turn a little M10 thread on that OD and finally part the part off .06 in clearance from the chuck face because you’re holding the stock/part in an adjustable three jaw and u don’t want anymore runout than .015. That’s called using a CNC lathe as a manual lathe machine.
I find it really hard to justify manual machines these days They have faster cycle times, set up times and if you know how to make a program from scratch itll take you only around an hour to a day depending on the setup and tooling. Yet manual machines take forever to make a thousandth of what cnc machines make in the same amount of time. I will say though machines like hydroptic jig borers are very very useful even today, but for most things to the 0.000mm or 0.0000" you wont get better than a CNC machine. Esspecially when you learn how to push them properly. Id love to learn on a manual machine but im very thankful i didnt.
My dad was a manual machinist. He made complex precision workholding for indexable fixtures holding gangs of parts . he was doing the job planning and making decisions on porting tools and sequence of operations and designing and building the fixtures. all since the early seventies on NC tape mills. I remember when I was 18 and just working a few days at the shop He worked at and He was the foreman. The cnc lathe was leaving chatter on the part. The vise president who hired me said " see Otto" (my dad). My dad took out his diamond flat hone which He always had in his top pocket. glanced over the insert a couple of strokes and said " try it now" Guess what , chatter was gone. His knowledge of machining fundamentals kept that cnc shop running. probably not b class.
![Digital Circus Episode 4 [TRAILER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/abZtsmMUbJo/mqdefault.jpg)
When have YOU made the mistake of using CNC when you should have used manual, or the other way around?
I didn’t make the mistake, our “scheduling personnel” did. In the shop I work I’m the only manual mill worker. I run two Bridgeport mills with ProtoTRAK retrofit attachments. The retrofits are different but each have their Pros/Cons. I was asked one day that an order of 5 parts that I had on my table be given to a CNC worker because “He has nothing to do.” We are working 50-60 hr weeks because the CNC department is so far behind and still have a mountain of work to do. So I agree to let him take the parts. He had to write programs and perform two operations on these parts. I could have gotten them done myself before he had the programs wrote. So, he takes my 5 piece order and I’m stuck running back to back, 300 piece orders putting me behind but “That’s where those parts are ran.” That’s the logic in the place I work.
@@DerkJester you either need to move shop, or fix the fuckin CNC machinist up cause thats poor.
Like fuck i see it at my own work, people saying they have nothing to do, so the boss gives them the "good jobs" cause if they have nothing to do well all theyre work is done right?
So they end up getting jobs that are just not for them, like he shouldve flipped it and said no can i run more than 5 lets say 50. Or at my work, this one bloke has to step up now but hes scared and cant. Its kinda sad to see a trademan fail like that after being cocky and all.
I run both CNC & manual and enjoy mixing up my day by hopping back and forth
It’s always good to have manual equipment and ability to add capacity! Some of my guys will pick away at making parts manually when they have cycle time, even if we usually do it in the CNC!
Tool & Die Repair & mold making & making spare part on the fly manual can not be replaced & cnc is excellent for production & exotic metal.. machining ..
I've been reflecting on this and the argument of manual machines being necessary for the repair industry is spot on. CNC and manual can't be compared since CNC's are there just to MAKE money while manual machines are there to SAVE money - either yours or the customer's depending on what you do. And with the availability crisis we're going through right now, I hope we will again understand the need for the repair industry.
I was a great manual machinist. However, once I figured out how to program and run a CNC, I dreaded using the manual mill. The CNC was so much tighter and accurate even when jogging it manually.
Even for repair work sir?
Can not replace i highly skilled tool & die maker or moldmaker repairs / builds designs & modification one of a kind dies or molds with bench work & broad knowledge of all machine shop equipment & machines ..I worked in both cnc & tool&die shops ...good video ..
I have a manual machine shop with the exception of a CNC plasma table. I'm working towards building my CNC capabilities as I want more customer opportunities.
Was a manual machinist for 12 years, horizontal mill, vertical mill & lathe. Now the last 25 years cnc mill & cnc lathe. They both have their spot for jobs in a shop. I still have a manual mill & lathe in my job shop. The mill is a great drill press and time to time a quick mill job. The lathe we use for deburring, polishing, or a quick turn job for a walk in job.
When you buy a 30k cnc, your not buying a 30k machine, your buying a 5k machine, with 25k of computers, wires and servos.... We paid 1k for a lodge and shipley lathe with a 12 inch chuck and 7 feet between centers, our cnc lathe was 30k, and it has a 6 inch chuck and 10 inches of z travel, with no tail stock. Cnc is for automation, manual is when you need the larger machine with more capacity. We have regular jobs that are too big for our cnc mill, but the cnc mill can still do first op, which is complicated and has five tool changes, but the second op has to be done on the Bridgeport, and I can run the Bridgeport while the cnc mill is running its 28 minute program unsupervised.
I prefer to use files and cold chisels.....
As an engineer, I've used manual machines for prototyping/modifying and one-offs but for production its almost always CNC.
However, there was one job cross drilling bolt holes in the ends of aluminum tubing, where a good drill press fixture could probably outpace a CNC.
It’s always funny when you figure out that a guy with a floating vise and a drill press can out produce a quarter of a million dollar machine!
@@iansandusky417 Yes, and its easier when a machine can be set up for a dedicated task, then pass the part to the next machine for the next step.
Both... period... the end! Be capable to do anything.
Can't disagree with that! Thanks for watching!
I think there’s always a spot for a manual in a shop we’ve got a old hardinge in the back ever once and a while it comes in handy. I do recommend checking out Overbeck machines they make a little deburring lathe it fits on a bench top.
An interesting I never actually thought of using a benchtop lathe for deburring - I always wondered what the application beyond hobby use would be for those!
all seems to forget...a cnc machine can also be operated in manual mode
Definitely can and I've done it before - I'd still prefer to do some manual tasks on a manual mill however - the ability to 'feel' the tool as you peck for instance can be critical for finicky jobs.
@@iansandusky417 I agree with that
Engineers are designing stuff around CNC machines now. The times have changed. Not to say there is no place for a manual machine, but the need is going further away from manual the more that time goes on.
I'd say this is a very fair assessment. I'd also point out that some engineers like to design stuff around machine capabilities that don't even exist in this reality - but that's another conversation for another day!
@@iansandusky417 Oh yeah all of the time!
On a cnc you make the decision to move the machine to a location before it happens. On a manual you make it in the moment.
Manual Machinist...Gray Haired Guy...Take care of him...learn from him...keep your mouth shut when he is talking....good luck hiring one or finding one. Thanks Ian...great job!
I had a surface grinder and a lathe when i was running a job shop
The rest of it was all CNC and i was considering changing the grinder to semi-CNC before the local death spiral happened and i had to close down
cool.mention of the american precision museum in windor vermont near the longest wooden covered bridge between windsor vermont and cornish new hampshire.
It was amazing man! Vermont was such a cool town - so much history there. Really recommend everyone interested in the manufacturing trades to check it out!
@@iansandusky417 it is amazing windsor vermont is a constitution state one of the 13 colonies. the precision museum was a state armory. it was powered by water.power and over head power belts that would be outlawed by safety board for health and safety. i am from and old school where it is safe until it ain't. but safety is the eye of the safety officer the museum opens in may and closes on halloween day. when they solve the heating and snow removal challeges may be they will remain open during ski season. the halloween closing there has been a model show and a swap meet in the community center and a parade for and of veterans on the old state route 5 before interstatc I91 was built parallel to.route 5. but shorter and straighted with bigger and higher bridges allowing foe the highway speeds that.we enjoy today.
you also had Springfield vermont another usa manufacturing center with lamson comparator. lovejoy tool st johnsbury and fair banks scale. the connecticut river valley tool.centers. in days of old and newer smaller tooling centers today. ever changing and always changing with the time the steamtown train and trolley was a place to visit in bellows falls vermont now it is in scranton Pennsylvania with steam town electric trolley museum and iron making stone charcoal burning iron furnaces near the Lackawanna coal mines and museums and probably more visit them if you like you will not be disappointed
I have come up in the mid 2000s running mostly CNCs. With the advent of tool room mills and lathes with semi open box designs and easy to use controls/programming software i find it hard to justify putting anything on a manual machine. By the time you set up anything on a manual the job can be programmed and documented and done right with less guess work, maybe a slightly longer setup time but far more reliability.
They are both tools. The choice of which one to use is going to be influenced not only by what the task is, but also what the individual is more efficient at using for the specific task.
Fantastic comparison, my friend.. I appreciate the time. Thank you
I run manual and cnc VBMs, HBMs and big roll lathes on real large parts.
If the parts right and you made money, you used the right machine.
That wasn’t a “I have the sharpest drill bit comment” btw. And btw I can’t even sharpen a drill bit and I respect people that do aerospace and defense work. But I really think what needs to be focused on is not manual vs CNC, but rather machinist vs. machinist and I think that what everyone would find in machinist vs. machinist is that everyone has something to share or trade secrets on how they program, or take a short cut in the race, that knocks hours off a job, etc. As long as the information doesn’t include details about defense industry parts or trade secrets for North American including Canadian and Mexican manufacturers. Or what not. Manual machinist work is not more difficult than CNC though. It all depends on how compassionate the person who trains you is. Most guys that run manual lathes can produce advanced parts (4 tools), and they are going to find a way to do a long production job faster than the kid straight out of trade school who’s on the CNC lathe. That doesn’t mean you’re going to get fired btw. Most shops are just looking for guys that have integrity in their lives which leads to employees who don’t complain and who work well with others and combined with a strong desire to learn/interest in learning this trade. If you are known to have integrity in real life and you’re not an outcast in society shops will pay you good money and teach you and let you get hung up for 6 hours on something like cutting jaws or writing a simple program or whatever even on a manual machine. And if you have integrity and can work well with others people won’t let you get hung up more than a couple times and you’ll learn the trade quickly.
i started on manuals so can see the benefit of both , we use the manual mills to do the one off simple parts, but saying that i try and plan them into the work when the cnc is doing a job with the tools needed set for another part so only a 2 min switch to do the one off . on turning , i wouldn't want to piss about using a steady rest on a cnc with a long shaft not that i ever have, it would be on a manual lathe with a DTI chasing the taper,
Oh yeah I hear you there - we actually used to have a real big lathe with a 60” capacity and I’m a little sad we got rid of it a few years ago - it was a boat anchor but we did stuff on there I wouldn’t even consider getting near the CNC lathe!
hi this topic has come up just at the right time i am a manual machinist/tool and die maker with 30 yrs experience i worked at the same company for 18yrs
i only have a few years to go before i retire . over the last 5 or so years the company has move more into CNC witch i have never worked with, my boss is
telling me if i don't learn CNC then its time for me to pack my tools . So is there still a place in this industry for me and at this late stage of my working career
and will i get another job .
Oh there are most definitely still shops out there who utilize manual equipment, and some that still run exclusively on manual equipment! They tend to be for fairly specialized stuff or one-off type jobs - but they’re out there.
I’ve had the chance to go to many shops over the last few years across North America, and I can think of exactly two that didn’t have some kind of manual equipment that was used regularly.
@@iansandusky417 thanks mate there are very few job shops left were i am in Adelaide South Australia i starting to think about semi retirement and doing some jobs from home as i have enough equipment to get me started. its just a bit disappointing that things are going to end this way
I run a 54" and 42" VTL Bullard from the 1940's.
It has been well maintained and runs wonderfully. They're the only machines in a shop full of CNC's that can machine parts after they have been welded multiple times. The parts are just too big, and oddly shaped for the CNC machines we have..
We heavily rely on Manual machines in my shop, for that reason, and others.
There doesn't seem to be much information available, but what are the typical tolerances on a used job shop CNC? Are they subjectively speaking crude or precision tools? I suspect it's not even comparable to a toolroom mill or lathe but I might be wrong? There was a time when manufacturing machines were big, bulky and with limited setup possibilities but they were just that, used for manufacturing specific parts. Toolroom machines were located in the background, reserved for precision work and making tools.
I’d say once you get past the hobby-rated stuff, anything decent should be able to hold a couple of tenths all day long - but it’s a bit like asking how long is a piece of string when it comes to used stuff, unfortunately.
A 15 year old machine run by guys who knew what they were doing, properly maintained it, didn’t crash the spindle, etc will be far more accurate than a 5 year old machine that got clapped by apprentices for its entire service.
I personally think buying cheaper new is more reliable than buying a more expensive machine at a used discount, because you can never really tell just by looking at them how they’re going to perform, even with a full service history.
@@iansandusky417 Thanks for your reply. Interesting. This certainly changed my opinion on whether there's any benefit one way or another.
I have two used cnc Fadal mills. My first i paid 8k for and the second 10.5k. I do close tolerance parts and never see a machine issue. Great way top start a shop on a budget.
@@danneumann3274 thanks for your input 👍
I run them both . I personally use the machine that makes sense for the job
Another pro for manual is.... The maintenance costs is way lower.... Cnc's are more frequently put out of action from some electronic component going wrong........ Since manuals are cheaper machines, you can still make parts slower than a cnc would and still make a better profit off of a manual
Oh man, I can relate to this. Just had the waycovers blow on my biggest mill - there's it out of action for the day. Fix it, and then the coolant / oil separator decides to crack on me - leaving a nice coolant lake behind the machine while we wait for parts. What a mess!
I've been strictly a manual Tool and die maker ever since I started my career over 10 years ago and honestly, I wish that I knew how to program so I could get more work done since I'm the only toolmaker in my shop now. Being able to build die components on a manual machine while having other components being made on a CNC would be like having another toolmaker in the shop. I think it would help make my life at work a bit easier. Maybe someday.
especially since you can pick up an old Fadal cnc mill for under 10k and add a world of possibilities to Your operation. I am also a tool and diemaker with my own little shop. I even use the cnc mill for flycutting die blocks to size in MDI mode. You have coolant and the mess is in the machine. I need all my machines though, manual and cnc. Try putting a tool post grinder on a cnc lathe.
@@danneumann3274 you can also get something like a Hermle C600U for ~30k
I just recently bought one from poland for ~32 including shipping after being told of it on YT
As someone starting on their own. I have a deep appreciation for both. As Ian suggested, it's super subjective but from a personal perspective I wouldn't buy a manual machine these days. My thinking is why would I allocate precious space and funds to a manual machine when a cnc alternative can do the same job + all the benefits of automation. Yes sometimes a manual mill is nice to have but for me I don't do enough to justify it. Cost is another factor. Cnc Mills and lathes can be purchased for very humble sums of money these days. For instance my bridgeport interact 720x vmc was €3000 a half decent knee mill would have been similar in cost
DId exactly that. The interact 750 took a lot of expensive repair and the knee mill nada. I used both constantly.
>heated debate
Both have their place. Guy called Stephan Gotteswinter (yes, he has a youtube) holds microns in a basement shop on manuals. Go to any industry show to see the CNC side of things.
Sheesh, I’ll have to check that guy out - that’s some serious skill!
@@iansandusky417 NYC CNC toured his shop (literally his basement, bloody germans and their native 240 3 phase), 2 years ago. It's what got my attention in the first place. Although admittedly I haven't watched any of his videos in a while. He's got some cool stuff that you don't see every day (the tracer is fantastic, it's what he uses to make TINY little titanium torx screw heads, or at least he did, dunno if he's upgraded to actual CNC for that). He's also a fair service (read: top tier) guy, he's retrammed/ releveled all his machines to PHENOMENAL accuracies.
He's doing that as a side business. When you need to make 5 pieces of a precision part, it probably pays off to have some guy do it as a side job. Not saying there's anything wrong with it - rather saying he won't be able to spit out 200 of those every day
Everyones experience depends on what type of machines they were exposed to. I wish I can work on them all! 😂 I just love this trade, minus all the politics! I respect both sides, manual and CNC! Skills are skills no matter what you use! Every shop needs to have both!
Best thing you can do is just ignore the politics and always try to learn. Politics are simply from every machinist in the world thinking they are the best. Lol
Personally I think the two year degree program for advanced manufacturing that spends an entire year teaching manual machines is a waste of the students money. 99% of them are going to get a job running a CNC that’s just the way it is. The job has evolved into a more tech enabled job with CMM CNC CAM CAD etc, and I believe they should be more focused on the future of Machining rather than the past.
I think that you can do a job on a manual machine if it is not too complex but if you have a job that requires many different operations and the tolerances are tight then I would say use a CNC even if it is only a one off.
For sure! Especially as I'm a guy who is more proficient with CNC vs manual, if I have something that's super tight tolerance, I personally will likely lean on the CNC even for one part - since I feel more comfortable dialing it in (with wear offsets or what have you) on a CNC instead of trying to do it manually.
Thanks for watching!
Good and fair opinions. Thanks Ian.
Thank you very much sir!
cnc machines are criticized only by those who have never bothered to learn them. They are intimidated by them but their pride doesnt allow them to acknowledge the facts. Both machines have their place in a modern machine shop. (Try picking up a thread on a cnc to recut). A machinist can only be a good judge of the proper place manual or cnc when He (or She) is proficient at both. I would also mention that cnc 's have fundamentally changed the design of parts, parts are much more complicated in regards to the profile as there is not much added cost associated with these more complicated designs. also with cnc You can load a part and get so much done in one vise clamp. all the operations done within this set up will be spot on.
I work in a tool making company (carbide end mills, spot drills etc). We have CNC and manual machines that both get used heavily. In my experience CNC is hands down better for making new tools, especially in large batches. Whereas manual is sometimes better suited or even the only way for modifying or regrinding existing tools. CNC is 80% of our business but why leave that other 20% on the table.
The biggest drawback to cnc I can see is the mystery metal scenarios. Example castings. One void filled with sand can ruin a machine or bits faster than you can blink if not watched constantly. Which defeats point to multiple cnc. Fluid blockages, and other mystery machine scenarios crop up. Manual you will notice even using an auto feed.
One advantage is you can have watchers at each machine than only need to know when to hit the stop button. The machinist can then come by and fix what needs to be fixed, changing them from machinist to basically a machine service man.
Plus to cnc = many are lathe and mill in one. Hard to reproduce some operations on any other single machine. Complex rotary valves with switchback channels.
Plus to manual = automatic adjustment for machine wear. All machines wear over time. Cnc machines will wear and have issues that, over a batch , can have widely varying tolerances. Manual machine runs just won’t as the machinist will adjust as he does each part.
Aside from factories there really is not a field for machinist that will use a cnc very much. Why because they are doing repair work. Unless your doing the exact same repair to hundreds of same part you’ll spend more time setting up machines than doing actual work.
All that being said. Dodge brothers engine and drivetrain factory, before it was part of Chrysler corporation, had hundreds of auto machines running parts unattended. Automatic complex gear and cog driven instead of a computer but still an early cnc. Many many early car part for Chrysler, chevy, ford, and many others were made on those machines.
and this old automated engine machines with gang drills would beat any single spindle
cnc even today. How can a modern cnc compete with a machine with twenty drills all coming in at the same time
I own 35 year old family business. we have both i use manual machines to make fixtures for parts which will be made on CNC machines.
Best machine to use is the most flexible 1 you can do the job right 1st time in a time efficient way simple as that
If I could distill this video down to one sentence, I think this would be it!
prototrak machines are the best for one off, parts
the manual is great for making fixtures or turning or milling limited pieces but you wont be in business long doing production on a manual
You will if it's really specific work, I used to work at a place that had CNC lathes that had 3 meters in swing.
Before these, we were sort of the only ones able to make the part and as such, manual machines were perfectly fine despite the days it takes for each part to be made.
I will end the debate. If something has complex geometries its easier to do so on a cnc machine. TRUST ME. i know
Each machine has a place. We make repair parts, most of the time one only part, this is what most manual shops specialise in. A CNC machine would just slow us down, code and set up for 1or2 parts would not be practical. Now if a customer wants 100 pieces, then we send him to a CNC shop.
I prefer cnc/ manual. An ez-trac or accu-rite is the best of both worlds. The cnc colchester triumph is a manual/cnc with conversational software. It will cut threads hell of lot fast than a manual Machine.
I think the only people who think manual is better don't know how to program CNC machines.
you did mention lightly the reality of manual machinist , skilled very skilled it is a art with your hands some thing you create ,same for the difrence for production shop vs job shop.
in a job shop from sawing the steel to building the crate to ship it to a rig ,you alone do that every step , that is a job shop, your a production shop OPERATOR , you are more of a white collar computer programer , we in the dirt and stand back and say i made that , when you can make a drilling head with a boring bar your skilled.
enough of that ,but keep in mind ,you and the cnc and nc put the skilled workers on the un employment line and have also worked yourself into running parts for nothing to keep work, so the sad song is you made it and now you dwell in it.
i tried cnc , ran a tawkasa and ll7 , hated it , took a whole day some times to setup and run first part, then when you did same shit for days, the talk of running more than 1 machine would have got your block knocked off back in the 80's hahah.
all a side i still enjoy my old trade sweap under the carpet from the 70's and 80's .watch machine shop vids and you know every time i see coolant i can still smell that nasty crap hahah, good show man like how you bring other shops into your channel
Move computer closer to the mill.
You can use an CNC manually. Or hand code a facing operation very easy. Don't thinks CNC's are hands free. You need a skilled mind to make something beautiful.
never ran a cnc but work manual to a .0005 tolerance xd much faster on a lathe than a mill ofc but all the same
Most shops now are 1 programmer and 20 monkeys, progammer $45 hr, monkey $30 hr.
I went back to manual, forget operating.
I did 5-6 months on a manual mill before starting CNC, Imo spending more then 2-3 weeks on a manual learning the very basics is a waste. Not only are you behind in CNC you will have to spend time unlearning bad habits from the manual.. If you run a modern industrial CNC like a Bridgeport you are doing it wrong.
I work in a tool and die department so almost every part is singles or very low numbers, we have thrown out every manual mill but one that is collecting dust in a corner but i cant think of any job worth doing on it.
If you got your machine setup for single parts CNC is faster, i got 60 of the most common tools ready in the magazine and macros for every common operation in the cam program.
For instance if i need to put a couple of threaded holes in a part i just click on them in the cam program and select my macro for that thread and hit ok and send it to the machine.
This way you have very short setup times and i can have simple parts probed and a program sent in 3-4 minutes. From that point the CNC runs circles around a manual.
Facing with 2hp and getting chips in your hair and all over the floor vs facing with a 40hp spindle..
Drilling with spot drills then switching to a twist drill and pecking your way though the part vs drilling with a self centering TSC carbide drill that blast straight through the part with no pecking needed etc..
Try doing this. Go work for a OEM job shop or mom and pop job shop that makes parts for OEMs or for manufacturers directly that lack machining capacity and/or capabilities. So pretty much anything non aerospace or defense oriented. Just true to the roots machining for American industrialist patterns or trends dictated by Adam Smiths invisible hand or by government infrastructure spending giving way to climbs in certain companies industrial patterns sometimes. Ok. In this realm of work, precision may not be as key as aerospace or defense work, but quick production programming is must know how to do along with synchronized setups, etc. This is called using a CNC machine like a CNC lathe as a manual machine like a manual lathe. Quick conversational programs into the control to face off .100 of stock, Jab a quick .069 deep undercut for relief and turn a diameter to OD 9.900 mm, and, turn a little M10 thread on that OD and finally part the part off .06 in clearance from the chuck face because you’re holding the stock/part in an adjustable three jaw and u don’t want anymore runout than .015. That’s called using a CNC lathe as a manual lathe machine.
I find it really hard to justify manual machines these days
They have faster cycle times, set up times and if you know how to make a program from scratch itll take you only around an hour to a day depending on the setup and tooling.
Yet manual machines take forever to make a thousandth of what cnc machines make in the same amount of time.
I will say though machines like hydroptic jig borers are very very useful even today, but for most things to the 0.000mm or 0.0000" you wont get better than a CNC machine. Esspecially when you learn how to push them properly. Id love to learn on a manual machine but im very thankful i didnt.
I can't wait till the 'that said' trend is over with.
No debate really, manual machinists are B class :)
My dad was a manual machinist. He made complex precision workholding for indexable fixtures holding gangs of parts . he was doing the job planning and making decisions on porting tools and sequence of operations and designing and building the fixtures. all since the early seventies on NC tape mills. I remember when I was 18 and just working a few days at the shop He worked at and He was the foreman. The cnc lathe was leaving chatter on the part. The vise president who hired me said " see Otto" (my dad). My dad took out his diamond flat hone which He always had in his top pocket. glanced over the insert a couple of strokes and said " try it now" Guess what , chatter was gone. His knowledge of machining fundamentals kept that cnc shop running. probably not b class.
@@danneumann3274 was a joke