Start with manual. Both mill and lathe. Overemphasis on centering and the importance of proper clamping and work holding. I “trained” 5 of my peers how to do rudimentary machine work safely and effectively with the small knowledge I had at the time. Lastly I think patience is the ultimate key, if someone is serious about the position they’ll show that they learn from their mistakes.
@@baileyray8020 I absolutely agree with learning basic techniques on manual before moving onto CNC. If you know how a cutter is going to behave or know how a drill feels when you're not using the right speed, it makes transitioning that knowledge over to a CNC much smoother. You understand the "why" a lot more, IMO.
When I had a trainee, the first thing I would ask is what do you want the machine to do? Learning manual machine sure helps. Funny story. We hired a new programmer and we gave him a simple washer to set up. He stared at the print for a long time and blurted out loudly "I don't know where to begin" lol.
As a 17 year shop instructor the most important thing I learned is that mistakes are teaching and learning opportunites. If a mistake is made, and we all make them, use it to teach not just the person who made the mistake, but everyone that might be at the same level. This way there is less chance a mistake is repeated by the next person. The only people who don't make mistakes are those that lie about it and those who do nothing.
Well said. 18 yrs in a high school shop. Things go wrong, we all stop immediately and I talk about it. Helps to drive home the danger, cost, and need for constant critical thinking in the work place.
That's so true, the more mistake that you make the better you become because you learn from it. I made a lot of mistake, and ended up being the best.... I know issues that know one at my work has encounter yet. They have years ahead of me.
I’ve had the same dead end warehouse job for almost 10 years, screwed around in high school and never thought about my future. I could never see myself going to college and being a clean cut white collar type so now at 30 I’m looking at taking the Machining program at the local career center. My grandpal who has been a machinist for over 40 years told me now’s the time to learn and get your feet in the door cause we can’t get young people into the trade.
I'm retiring after 35 years as a licensed machinist and what I see now is companies are hiring 'operators ' at a much lower rate as everything is cnc now. Smaller shops still require skilled machinists but bigger shops are relying on good programming to allow less skilled operators to run production.
As a recently retired machinist (41 years , all with a great company!). This is what worked for my trainees : first week was one on one. Second week , 4 hours overlap, third week 2 hours overlap, fourth week he was on his own. After that they could come in early as the occasion arose to go over a difficult job etc. After 30 days we would be usually progressing.
Wow, that's a breakneck speed - but I agree! I think hand-holding too long can be a big issue. You need to let people learn to work on their own and figure things out - because if you make them too reliant on you, they're not going to develop the workflow independence that's required for the trade. Thanks for sharing that!
That's a great program and company you worked for....however I been through some companies that only wanted button pushers that teach bare minimum....Today I've learned with minimum help with no schooling....alot of people in my position would of quit but I kept going bcuzz I enjoy the creative process....it's all on the leadership supervisor who want to see someone to succeed...and it's definitely on the employee who enjoys the learning and creative process
I'm gonna sound like a bit of a snob here, but I think good machinists are a certain type of person. It's a trade that has become grossly underappreciated, both in terms of skill level, and financial compensation. It takes many years to become a competent machinist. I consider machinists to be at the top of the trades, in terms of applied skills and experience. You really have to be a highly focused person, with a healthy respect/understanding (most people don't really even comprehend this level of measurement) for precision, a humble approach to learning (because the learning really never stops), and a person who is a hard worker. It is difficult to find those types of people in the best of times. It's even more difficult considering that the pay has not kept up with the experience level, and a respect for the trade, where employers are concerned (I understand that employers have their own job market factors to contend with). I don't envy todays machine shop employers. The trade has been relegated overseas for long enough, that the skill level within the job market has all but dried up. My company can't find competent saw operators or welders. Competent machinists?...or even bright-eyed young machinist candidates? Good luck!
Until owners pay what you earn, things will be tough. I left the trade and got my teaching degree because I was carrying all of the duds with my ability to problem solve, be creative and get things done to spec and quick. Lowest paid machinist at trade school, highest marks, most experience (??). Been a high school metal shop teacher for 18yrs and making 2x what I did with better hrs and low stress conditions. Teaching kids the 'skills of employability' before they get out there so they're not like the duds I worked with. If my boss would have 'showed me the money' who knows, might have stuck it out because I loved the diverse work and mental challenge.
"Teaching kids the 'skills of employability' before they get out there" I think this is KEY. I think the interpersonal skills of working with other guys in what can be a high-pressure, high-stress job is something that is lacking out there at the moment. Thank you very much for making that a highlight of what you do! As for the wage issue, I also 100% agree. It's an issue pretty near to my heart at the moment - I thought I might be spending a little too much time voicing my displeasure on it in these videos, but I suppose it's going to be a relevant issue until companies start realizing that underpaying machinists is headed straight towards having zero employable machinists in the very near future. Thanks for watching!
As the older generation has been swapped out for the young high flyers over the last 20 years the issue of training has arrisen and the skills gap has intensified. I wonder where the problem lies. The old school way was to teach skills on the shop floor, as that attitude diminished the skills shortage increased.
I definitely hear you. I think companies have been kind of hoping that it would all kind of figure itself out rather than putting the work and effort into developing their own training programs - and as that hasn't worked out, we're seeing the skills gap only getting worse. Fortunately, I have been to many shops that have fully fleshed out apprenticeship programs that I wish I could have been a part of back when I was coming up!
i've been a machinist for 10 years now, the biggest problem in this trade is cocky a-holes not wanting to train or submit proper documentation on setup sheets. i guess they figure it gives them more job security. I'd suggest based on your video example that they have a weekly half hour meeting with a non targeting of the person that messed up, but an explanation of how to avoid and resolve issues like that in the future.
I followed my father into machining. One of the things I used to fight with him about was that his setup sheets were crap. Missing info, no details, he memorized most of the repeat jobs. He would say it was for job security. I would go behind him and update all the jobs with details and info. 😅😂 he's retired now, and I've moved on from maching because the pay hasn't kept up with inflation, but I do miss it.
This goes both ways. Also have arrogant know it all fucks comming out of tech school that don't want to learn or listen. They think they know everything right out of school
I’m in a Journeyman program at my current place of employment. We are a medical machining shop. We have 5 - axis grinders, Swiss machines, mills, lasers, etc. basically I’m just supposed to have so many hours, or 1 year in every department. 4 years total. College work as well. In this building, we have a huge skill gap, and a very small amount of knowledgeable employees. The rest are what you would call a button pusher, or are working their way up the ranks. I think the biggest tool for properly training new people is getting them with a reliable, experienced operator who can be next to them for at least a month and set them on the right track. Let them screw up, and don’t give them all of the answers. Spoon feeding them isn’t helping anything. Let them problem solve, or come up with at least 3 solutions before they come to you with a problem
If I was reborn. I would not be a machinist. After 40 plus years 8n the trade . I make 45 an hour live in LA county . I have my resume on Indeed. Most jobs with my experience 30 per hours tops . I can't wait to retire.
As a Toolmaker for 40yrs, I can certainly testify to that! And to make matters worse, today's crop of engineers isn't much better! We get a couple of co-ops from the big local engineering university who have surprisingly little mechanical aptitude or experience! The first thing I do with them is give them a Machinery's Handbook, which they have never seem before!
One thing that might be useful is having an "error budget" considered as part of training. No clue what an appropriate number is, but saying "I expect a trainee to cost $X in errors as they're learning" - rather than saying "we need to make sure there's never an error". The biggest learning opportunities and the lessons that stick come from making mistakes and working through them.
I've dealt with this and continue to do so. I think for starters it's important to acknowledge that this trade isn't for everyone. You can't just build someone into a machinist (at least a good one) because they would like to be one. Most people can be operators, fewer can setup, even fewer can program, and even far less than that can do all that needs to be done. I'm finding the lack of necessary skills required to do even simple tasks isn't a result of training or schooling, but because kids aren't engaged with many mechanical things anymore. To be a good machinist it's fundamental to have a mechanical sensibility. Without this, you can only go through the motions. Most of the challenge of machining is solving problems (before they happen) and that can't be done effectively without this sensibility. CNCing has definitely made it easier for the less skilled to make a go of machining and if things keep automating there will be an even bigger issue with the lack of skills. I've been at this awhile and have decades more to go in this trade that I love, but I have a feeling that less and less will get to where I'm at because they can't lift their head up from their phones. I'm not a pessimist. I'm hopeful that kids will start playing outside again and learning about and feeling the forces of nature that build that foundation of mechanical thinking, that for now, seems lost.
@SABRESHOP I'm not exactly sure what it is that you are trying to say. I'm deciphering from your response that you don't feel that a good machinist is someone with a mechanical aptitude. The thing is, I'm not referring to a button pusher. I'm talking about a machinist in the classical sense. Someone who can take an idea and make it become reality. To take a customers part and repair it. Develop at process that doesn't waste time and material and gets the job done neatly and correctly. This cannot be done by just anyone, it takes a mind that can see things happen before they happen. This isn't teachable. It's a gift and not everyone has it. And yes, I agree it is an art, but not everyone can be a great artist.
This sounds like an attitude problem on your part. Plenty of young adults, and I mean 18 year olds born in 2006, are getting into HVAC and plumbing and ironwork and just about every other trade and doing well. There shouldn't be a problem with staff retention, but because of 1. Low-paying operator jobs and 2. No union-business agreement to train and control the labor market like IBEW-JTAC has, you have our current predicament. There are ways to work around this, but it requires time and resources that understandably some people don't have/don't *want* to spare for now.
@@XxLeCaptainxX I couldn't possibly explain my entire nuanced perspective on this, but it's like this; I literally carved my way into the machining trade without schooling or apprenticeship, completely self-taught and continue to be. But I was always the mechanic, always the kid building contraptions, and had a reputation as a kid that can get things to work. Now, I manage a shop and have 30 somethings that have had every opportunity to learn this trade that I had not, tech-schools and college, and it's just apparent that they don't appreciate it for what it is. I'm involved with the local tech-school and see much of the same coming out of it. It's just some job. Although things are changing and more and more parents are accepting that their kids should look into trades as an alternative to academia, the world kids are growing up in has changed from a physical existence to a digital one. Over time the generalized skills that were common will become more specialized, until they almost disappear all together. Humans are tool builders and will always be, but we're also equipped to live a hunter gatherer's lifestyle, and I'm sure you can see that most of us today have not honed those skills either.
An issue I see is the way these entry level positions are marketed. These positions should be marketed apprenticeships or on the job training. That's how I started.
I’m 24 years old, progressive tool and die setter for most of the 6 years in the trade transitioning into a dual setup and tool maintenance role. I’d say another problem I’ve noticed is the trainers themselves don’t fully understand what’s going on, most of my good mechanical knowledge comes from me frankly watching videos like this , reading old literature and operation manuals from the OEM of the press or machine I’m working on. Most people my age don’t have the interest in doing this and the flow of information is suffering severely because of it
" You cant heli-coil a face mill"....man that made me spit out my beer and nearly roll on the floor laughing.......what a bizarre idea......manual machinist for over 40 years now....cheers
@@mftmachining, I have not run it. It's a big blue aluminum one, was with a bunch of tool holders. Looked like the inserts broke, then ran it home anyways lol
Im just geting started in school and the certificate set up is like one class per semester so my skills arent there, but my passion for the trade is. I think the best thing for people like me is to find a shop that will teach you while youre at school because the schooling just takes way too long. Also certain teachers treat mistakes differently. I think we are all supposed to make mistakes and learn, but some professors may disagree. I also got blessed to get an apprenticeship with an aerospace shop.
I'm not any kind of experienced teacher, but I've got some questions. Are you trying to find guys that operate CNCs, trying to become machinists, skilled production operators/inspectors/etc., working towards set up, programming, fixturering, these are some pretty varied skills to teach. I started in vocational training for machinist/maintenance machinist/fabricator/repair. School taught us which end of the file to use and how to put a handle on it. Then threads on a manual lathe. A very small amount of milling. Then into the deep end and off to work. There was a shop math (taught me Trig!), and a materials classes in there too. And a tape mill course also, that's useful. But on the job was where it was happening. There were no apprenticeships here on the west coast, circa 1978-79. Buy most of that would not apply now, where would you start? Measuring? Tools that you need? Safety, I suppose safety would be the best place to start. In my experience though, maybe 2 out of 10 will stick around. And there are some really mechanically gifted people out there, they get things right away. I wasn't like that, I really had to work at it, but eventually, the light came on and I got it. Where do you start now?
Start off with a program that is know to 100% work, let them put in the offsets with a edge finder with x, y axis with a .200 and make sure they increment the .100, with Tooling depending on the program setting each tool with a .005 shim either on the part or off the table using a 1.2.3 block using increment.. that's where i'd start with training.
Based on the years I spent in high school trade school in the early 70s TWO YEARS 4 hours a day not sure anyone has the patience anymore to train a true machinist
It really is difficult. A lot of shops want guys fully capable as soon as they walk in the door, but that just isn't the reality anymore. If people aren't willing to train, they better be willing to pay absolute top dollar to snag someone capable from someone else!
I did the same in high school, but for electronics. We also had machining, electrical, auto mechanic, auto body, masonry, carpentry, printing, drafting, and a few offers. The tri-county votech program was 4 hrs/day for last 2 years of high school. I graduated in 1990. By 1994 the entire program was shut down, which was the time things began to be outsourced to Asia.
That's a good point. When I was an apprentice (not machining) the mechanics I learned from were very meticulous and thorough. They did not do this for my benefit; it was just the way they always worked.
I always check every dimension, every time, evey day. I dont let a series of parts running unless everything is perfect. You cant be sleepwalking while setting up a machine, you cant relax, you have to be focused 100%. And if something feels off, check it. If you start setting up your machine, get at it fast and motivated, there always could happen something and things go wrong and need time to be fixed. You can always relax afterwards while the machine does your work. And of course Order and Cleanliness, my favourite german words, Take care of your machine, avoid downtime, have your tools in order. I hate searching for tools.
I’ve been going to school to become a machinist for the last year, every single shop I’ve applied to won’t even hire me for an operator position because I don’t have work experience. It’s extremely frustrating because I’m going to school to become a programmer, I have experience programming and operating yet nobody will take the opportunity to train me. I don’t understand why a shop wouldn’t hire somebody whose trying to make a career in machining for an entry level position. Most shops in my area want operators to have 3-5 years experience and offer $15-18 an hour, it’s kinda ridiculous.
That's seriously frustrating. I think that some companies / areas haven't quite clued in yet as to what kind of situation we're in, and think they can still cherry pick top pre-trained talent for garbage wages - because that's the way it's been for decades. Now, the 'power' as it were has shifted to more positions out there than there are guys to fill them - at least for what they're offering - so they either need to get with the times, get wages and training programs up - or fail. It really is a reckoning moment out there right now, IMO.
@SABRESHOP This isn't off topic at all my man, this is actually very interesting! Honestly if the pay was right, I know a decent amount of guys who would love to do this kind of work - it doesn't sound much different in execution than everyone from my hometown flying out to Alberta for several months at a time to work the oil fields. People are more than willing to go where the money is, so if you can find a way to connect the talent willing to work with the employers willing to pony up the cash to get their critical work done, I think you might have something there!
Very true. I got lucky and snuck in back door at a aerospace shop. Now everybody wants to hire me and I'm only 5 years in. It helps that I live in the pnw and there are machine shops everywhere. I've never been to a trade school but I am training a journeyman machinist right now that shouldn't even be called a operator 🤣
After 5 years as a machinist the most I was making was 20 an hour. I quit, went into a different field, and make double that now. The wages is what is killing the trade in my opinion. Especially for how dangerous the work can potentially be
I think it helps to explain to new people everything that goes into the process of getting a part of. From programming to setting up a machine and operating then checking a part. Obviously you cant teach em everything at once but if I'm showing someone how to set a tool I'll also show them how to step a tool down and why the spot in the machine youre setting the tool on can make a huge difference depending on where the work offset is set. It helps them understand why they're doing things while they learn and they end up with a better perspective on what it is they're actually doing.
You’re definitely not wrong - most people don’t begin to understand the scope of the job, and helping to build that through your training can make a big difference down the line - thanks for the post!
Subscribed! This kinda content is extremely helpful. Would be nice to do some content on how to work your way up in a competitive shop? How does someone progress and have the edge over their coworkers?
This is 100% a owner issue. Every owner i have dealt with i have brought people in and was willing to hire train and fire and not a single one of those owners was willing to fire bad guys. They expect every person who wants a job to be trained into a great machinist. All the while underpayment there good guys and keeping those people who lose them money daily. I have never had a company let me take over the getting guys portion as soon as I hired the first person they got scared I was gunna take over there shop. Shop owners these days suck. This isn't even an issue. Most people who are gunna be good machinist don't even require someone to train them. They will train themselves and just ask questions.
Thank you very much! There's a lot of really interesting perspectives in the comments here, I agree - I really appreciate people taking time out of their day to share knowledge, it's excellent to see!
You referring to Lean Six Sigma Black Belts. And the document you're talking about is called a failure mode effects analysis. Telling the occurrence with a rating system called the RPN based upon severity occurrence rate and detection. I'm pretty sure automotive standards such as IATF 16949 says the FMEA should contain corrective actions for each occurrence. I just started machining a week ago and I want to get good at it. Recommendations?
Make them take the earbuds out and put the phone down. Stupid shit that happens that shouldn't because they are not paying attention to what they're doing.
I have no degree in CNC. I was trained on the job in a small town shop I was making $20/hr when I took a job with an hour drive 1 way to make $24/hr but better benefits. I was laid off in 2/2024 but was making $29/hr Luckily I was hired back on where I was but am doing more work, required to learn fusion360 to program, set up, and run and make now make $24/hr. I like CNC machining, but I feel I should be making more with all the work involved. Programming, setup, run on lathes and 3 axis mills.
I've been working as a CNC milling operator for 4 months, no previous experience. The system my shop has in place is that on every setup or tool change, it must be buddy checked and signed of by another operator. Not sure if other shops have this system.
At the end of the day, I think that it comes down to one thing and that's creativity, how do you train that your either born with it or not. The second is Passion because if they lack that no matter how many times you show them how to measure a tool length offset, they will never remember...sometimes like in the case of somebody who was once working for me a lack of passion nearly lead to their death, thank God I was standing there and happened to be in the right place at the right time. I think that much of what we see in shops is because the people simply don't want to be there anyway so who gives a shit. as a shop owner and operator this is the one thing that I look for in employees and if I see it, we talk about it because life is too short to be in a machine shop doing "slave" labor if you don't want to be there in the first place. To me the machine operator work was a means to an end and because of that I embraced it. now that I am a shop owner, and the work wouldn't get done unless I do it, I can say that I would be a model employee at any shop that I worked at previously. As I said previously creativity is the rare quality that makes a journeyman into a grandmaster, however passion can elevate even the most unskilled guy into something unstoppable.
10:00 I'm an engineer who recently got a job for the first time that actually fabricates something. I was thinking that our shop should just have a computer all the guys can use to just air any grievances they have. If you're finding things are fucking up over and over again, it could be something we've overlooked, or at least something we could do to make things go easier. 90% of the guys at my shop dont have great English, but id love to just have them write down their problems somewhere in Spanish so that I could translate and try to help.
In the uk we do a proper apprenticeship that’s 5 year spending every day with a proper skilled Guy he’ll start with man turning milling grinding then progresss to Cnc one day a week day release @ college for the full 5 year doing the academical side….it’s the only way
That's the case here in Canada as well - the caveat being that the Red Seal program (our certification system) is 100% optional. You don't need a day of schooling to be legally allowed to work as a machinist in Canada, so that's why we see a lot of these 'alternative' teaching methods pop up.
@@iansandusky417 it’s pretty much like that here but all the blue chip companies like Rolls Royce…Lockheed…Airbus..etc to name a few no matter how much experience you have…you will not even get near the door never mind an interview if you don’t complete the 5 year and pass college…it’s a floor in the system that needs addressing a lot of guys go to night school to get the academic side but it’s still not the same…the difference in money is huge from a Time served guy to non time served Not qualified £ 30k Qualified £70k per year…Formula 1 jobs paying £100k a year in the uk
@@chrisyboy666 That's massive gap! It's pretty crazy here in Canada - when I was young working here at my dad's shop, he had 15 guys on the floor - all on manual machines, and each and every one of them had a Red Seal certification. Now, I haven't seen a Red Seal certified machinist / toolmaker's resume come across my desk in likely 7-8 years. The companies that have them must be treating them very, very well - but the other side of it is that to get your Red Seal here, you need to have 8000 hours of apprenticeship signed off on by your company and write the appropriate tests. What I think I'm seeing (and I could be wrong) is a movement away from emphasis on getting guys certified by the companies, so the pool is dwindling. It's a crazy world out there!
@@iansandusky417 it revolves around the quality system British standards iso 5750 And 9001 and the As 1200…companies need these to able to supply into the Aero energy oil and gas industries and Automotive…every employee needs to pass an exam based on the QM he then gets a stamp and every job they do wether it’s a washer or a complex part gets your number on it …to get awarded this stamp you have to have done a 5 year apprenticeship so the the big companies can’t and won’t employ anyone not certified as as soon as they get Audited they will lose their quality certification so most companies are forced to hire apprentices every year …
@@chrisyboy666 Who is paying their machinists £70k in the UK? I have worked in the industry for 10 years, and served an advanced apprenticeship and never heard of these figures. For 70k a year I will sell my machine shop and go and work for someone else.
I tried to be a machineist with three different shops, as you say, deperately looking to fill their ranks. They want educated people or prior experience. One shop offered to take me on as shop clean-up, but $12/hr doesn't pay bills. If you want people these days you gotta take em in, train them in house, and pay them a living wage, which is approaching $27/hr for low income areas. If you don't want to do that, you aren't really that desperate. If you can't afford it, then the marketplace has decided you're a failure, close up shop. I finally found a industrial production facility that hired me to do repairs, no prior experience, they train and certify me in everything they need. $32/hr starting out, so I am doing a little better than getting by these days. Full coverage health-care as well, no deductibles, extends to my family, if I had one. Hopefully, I can start pulling $50-60/hr in a few years, so I can actually afford to start living. If anyone accepts less than this these days, they are simply part of the problem. Want workers? Pay us.
Have you been in the shops? They are all running out of work/going out of business. Not to mention, no one wants to take on an apprentice anymore. Would be nice to find a place to learn the trade.
Heres how it is West Coast Canada. You can go into machining and, after a few years proving you wont crash $100K machines - Make $25-30 an hour . Always you are competing with offshore. If you ever want to go on your own you will have to buy those $100K machines yourself. Or, You can go into construction, Make $30-40 an hour very quickly, No on cares if you have a ticket if you can do the work. And with about $1k in tools you can get all the cash side work you can handle. And no offshore competition. If I could do it ll again....
The steep learning curve and high startup cost to do it yourself are two big issues, I agree. If we don’t properly incentivize people to enter the trade over something with better pay and less training - We’re going to struggle to have a talent pool of new recruits! Thanks for watching!
I left construction to come into machining. My pay is about the same & i actually get benefits. I still do construction side work on the side but I spent more then $1k in tools. Plus you have lay offs. The only way you’re making good money in construction is union. This is coming from a former carpenter. Machining has been good to me so far. It pays decent if you’re skilled, and I don’t have to drive 2 hours to work or spend a lot of time away from family everyday. Plus you know what you compete with in construction? People on shore who can always “do it cheaper” (likely illegal immigrants and scabs who like low wages) The grass is always greener on the other side.
ya about that. how many ppl have tried out machining only to go n be a plumber r electrician millwright r carpenter etc. my advice is: go to school n learn the basics at college first. take machinist pre-apprenticeship course first like i did. that tells me you thought about it, you done some of it, n now you have an idea what it is n you r likely to continue doing it. my advice would be: do Not Train random ppl !
I'd like your/ your community input on this one.... I'm lining up to be a production manager at the back end of a business sell off. I would not accept prior to this due to unorganized management. Now my issue is the most senior guy, whom is not the greatest, but is a punctual employee and always there. He tends to chit chat, skip out on part checks, and the worst part is a bully to new learners. I have personally seen 4 guys leave because of the effect his demeanor towards them. If someone makes a mistake, he tries hard to make then feel bad, not instruct how to fix or any helpful input at all. He is buddy buddy with general manager, and thus gives him his entitlement to do as he pleases. When I step in, I don't want to push him out. But show him how to be a supporting member of the team. Also, I may need him to listen when I take the reigns. Any advice or help would be appreciated. Thank you all!! And keep on keeping on!
Ah man, sounds like the stereotypical FOG, that's extremely difficult to deal with. I had almost the exact same situation at my shop before I got into management - guy was a brilliant tool and die machinist, and could do just about anything - but he was the saltiest dude I have ever met, and not in the 'oh that kinda funny' way. I don't think anyone actually directly quit because of the way he treated his coworkers, but there was definitely a real garbage mood in the shop when he was around. While he left and I didn't have to deal directly with him since I started managing, I have had guys like him. For me, it took leveling with them and making them aware of what they were doing - having a pretty honest conversation that while yes, they're a key element of the team, I *need their help* to train up the new guys, and what *we're doing* right now isn't working. It can be easy for guys to say you just fire guys like this and move on, I think taking responsibility (whether real or not) for the way they're behaving and specifically asking for their help (rather than just berating the way they're training) can really help shift them from the automatic defensive mode into a more helpful way of thinking. Guys like this likely came up in an environment where they were treated the same way - so it's not *all* their fault, despite their conduct not really being appropriate or tolerated anymore. Personally, I'd approach it like that. Stroke their ego just enough to keep them from getting hostile, and try to frame a request to change their attitude as them helping you out. If that fails, (assuming that they're not being outright abusive, which I won't tolerate) - I'd give them one more come to Jesus talk being more direct that what they're doing isn't working - and then probably reconsider their role in my shop. The other mistake I see shops make is assuming that every experienced guy is going to be a good teacher or has to be some kind of mentor for the next generation. Some fantastic machinists are absolute trash at teaching, or communication in general - and that's fine! Trying to shoehorn every person out there into a teaching role isn't reality. Maybe they need to be put in a role where they do their own thing, make parts, and leave - with pretty explicit instructions not to bother the apprentices. Thanks for the question - that's a really poignant topic right now!
@@iansandusky417 thank you. I planned on the ego stroking technique. It just seems the best. With the second step being more direct. This was an insightful response.
We must get away from the training model based on rubbing a puppy's nose in the poop on the carpet. Which goes back to the topic of how we make this trade more attractive to potential machinist trainees. In so many cases the culture of the shop floor is the background for machinist training, and that culture is usually led by the senior employees. Senior employees who may have had their skillset minimized during raise reviews. Who may take for granted the skills they use everyday, not recognizing that someone new is missing a key nuance in handling a micrometer, or bore gauge, and is getting inconsistent measurements, or forcing the metrology tool to deform toward tolerance. Because the first lesson learned is "Don't Crap the Carpet"
Couldn't agree more, you make a really excellent point here. I wish more guys had that same mindset - here's to hoping more shops give their head a shake and come around to this viewpoint before it's too late!
If I learn CNC machining, I could earn a few dollars more per hour and I'd be good at it. I'm hoping to convert a $1,000 mini mill to CNC to learn the trade. I took a machine shop class 25 years ago.
I find that a lot of shops out there don't have the time to train at all and expect you to know it all out of school and make no mistakes. Every small mistake you make is met with screaming and finger pointing.
Unfortunately, I do think you've got a point. I've said elsewhere here and in the Instagram comments that if your shop relies on underpaying inexperienced machinists to do high level work with zero margin for error - your shop is literally set up to fail. If the work you're doing is *that* tight to the wire, you're chasing the wrong work, and that job was never going to be profitable to begin with. The shame is that shops for decades had the ability to be picky and pick only what they wanted out of an existing talent pool that was both skilled and eager to work. That talent pool doesn't exist anymore, and too many companies are still acting like it does. There's a pretty stiff reckoning coming, IMO.
They need to start from zero to understand the process......I started welding with oxy/Acet filler rod and adapted to TIG easily. Someone that started with MIG doesn't get it easily. I started machining before the CNC era and adapted easily. Someone that is a community college wiz at Master Cam cannot "chase threads". We need to bring back apprenticeship programs or be prepared to train and hold hands. Spreadsheets and evaluation is not the answer, we need to bring back the basics.
This is a problem that should have been dealt with a long time ago now it's helter skelter and all the tribal knowledge is walking out the door in the next few years with a huge gap between the guys that know how to do this stuff and those that don't. I like to teach the younger guys whatever I know and I find I get just as much out of it as they do. I'm currently mentoring my nephew who is very bright and capable and has a good sense for things. I think you have to have a certain mentality and ability to problem solve and have extreme attention to detail. Many people just don't have that, and they won't last. First let's stop kidding ourselves that anyone can be trained to do this line of work. I don't believe that to be true. Just like not everyone can be a doctor or lawyer, not everyone can be a machinist. Second the so called tech schools need to find out what the companies in their respective area actually need and tailor the training around that. Instead they are still teaching manual machining when most areas are nothing but CNC job shops where these kids will never see a Bridgeport. They need to know how to be a capable operator, which means understanding technical drawings, tolerances and how to properly measure. They spend so much time on theory and not nearly enough doing the actual job. Half the schools don't even have modern CNC equipment so they are teaching on Proto Trak mills, which is better than nothing but still not what most will encounter in the field. It's going to take a huge commitment from large companies and small to help mentor the next generation. Let's also admit that the trade needs a face lift too, no one wants to work in some dingy dark dungeon. Clean well lit organized shops that don't seem like a prison would help. You can't throw some young guy or gal on a machine with little training and expect there to be no problems that's your fault!
First of all manual machining gives the person a feel for how material cuts. The sound that the machine and the metal makes when it is be cut. This is how to set speed and feeds this works for both lathes and mills. manual machines are for the basics Then you go to cnc machining once they get a feel for manual machines when I was doing my apprenticeship I hung out with the older guy's, I asked questions and listened. they shared their experiences. throwing a person on a cnc to soon only causes scrap and your people don't learn anything. computers are great but they don't know when a cutter is too sharp yes too sharp, a too sharp cutter tends to grab and gouge. the computer doesn't know that the stainless part your working on is getting work harden. a cnc machine on know what someone who is not running the part tells it to do. Carbide is great but there are times when good old high speed steel works better this is coming from 30 plus experience working in aerospace, I cut details from everything from Teflon to titanium and a lot of stainless and tons of all grades of aluminum. this video is right a lot of baby boomers have or are retiring real soon and all that tribal knowledge will be gone a lot of this can't be put in books
i find it hard to train people above a certain level, they give up at a certain stage on earning and think they are not paid enough to do them parts ,then say they can get a job anywhere paid more with what they do already , They get scared of the cost of material , being told it needs doing for delivery next day , then use an excuse they are to good to do production parts and get bored that is the reason 50% is scrap , i was always told 30 years ago you do what you are given if you don't like it fuck off , if you scrap to much fuck off lol , everything was you can fuck off , but we also had a back hander for a good month share of scrap money , its not like it used to be .
That definitely was a different world - what are some things you find most helpful when you're tasked with training someone new? Do you hand-hold or prefer to let it rip and let them make their own mistakes?
HR hires managers who have degrees, masters and phds in engineering, who are trained for a desk job but do not know anything about machining, welding, mechanics, electrical etc. These people get paid the big bucks for giving orders, but do not have any practical experience or technical acumen, and yet they are in charge. Meanwhile, experienced workers are passed over for promotion, are looked down upon by managers as glorified laborers and dismissed just as quickly .So, the experience and maturity is lost, and inexperience and immaturity is hired. The problem is not hard to figure out. Any thoughts?
I dont know what it is but in this trade there seems to be knowledge hoarders and people dont want to share knowledge or all of it it's very discouraging.
I’ve definitely encountered the kind of people you’re talking about, and IMO it comes from a place of insecurity - if I don’t teach someone everything I know and 2 jobs are always “my” jobs in the shop, I can’t get replaced, right? It’s fortunately not super common, but I do know what you’re talking about. Thanks for watching!
Whoever the owner of the shop is, the man who pays the bills and sign the check needs to find and hire one man for the job. He needs to bring in someone and interview him for hours and asking him tons of questions. This individual needs similar background experience like what the shop makes. How he can make the shop better and profitable should be the main goal. This candidate must have a mentally to make a better part everytime. Give him the power to hired and fired who he sees fit. Why should the guy paying the bills need to worry about training new employees, when one guy can take care all of it.
I think the biggest issue is the older generations who think kids don’t want to learn but when we try we get shit on anyway or they won’t tell us anything actually helpful to stay into it
Training other machinist have steps to set-up a CNC to complete its work. The first week of training's all you need to help others understand how the job's done while the machinist's learn to do set-ups and operate a CNCs what a machinist has to know!
I've been looking for meachiest position for awhile. I have experance in manual and a little on CNC. Most shop want to work 50 to 60 hours a week. I not interested in that many hours. Really! No life for meachinest shop people.
There's multiple angles to this issue. If you're talking Machinist versus machine operator, the problem starts with pay rates that attract higher quality candidates. I've found it nearly impossible to train a person with an operator's aptitude into a proficient skilled Machinist with the mental abilities to do the job. As for pay rates; job shop machining is one of the most competitive businesses that exist. Most businesses know what their competitors are charging, but job shops don't, which drives pricing down and puts downward pressure on shop wages.
Why aren't there any machinist apprenticeships especially in the Southern US? Granted unions are more prevalent in Northern states but entry level workers need hands-on learning after trade school. They're not going to find it if companies aren't willing to train the next generation of machinists!
If you are not good at problem solving or are not mechanically inclined forget about this trade. I see guys in this trade that can figure out a problem just by looking at a part and other guys that could never in a million years solve that little problem. You either have it or you don’t there is no in between. It’s not always the trainers fault that the apprentice doesn’t learn.
We were just told vacations for ‘21 are cancelled, 10 hour minimum days until mid January w 12/25 and 1/31 off….all so the German CEO can get his fiscal year bonus…..we work in Ohio, he has a corporate office in California ……can’t find machinists, and the guys we hire are all over 55. This shit is dying off….learn to program.
Man, that's grim. At my shop, we frankly have more work than we know what to do with - but we're still only working a half day (but whole day paid) today so we can do the company Christmas lunch, and we're shutting down from Dec 23rd to Jan 3rd - with no expectation of my guys coming in at all, though they're more than welcome to come in and work if they'd like to make some extra cash. Not at all to brag or hold myself up as some kind of saint - far from it - but I really don't understand how companies think they can continue with this nose to the grindstone / Protestant work ethic thing anymore when the wages and working conditions don't support it.
@@iansandusky417 I’m 47 and the youngest in the shop by 4 years….one guy retires next week and the manager publicly called him out for leaving us hanging. It is pretty grim right now.
@@marksantoro2110 That is indeed pretty grim. I saw a post / video somewhere the other day where literally an entire department retired out at a mold shop, and there was one younger guy who was brought in and trying to learn something like 60 years worth of custom fixturing and programs before the 'old departments' last day. I don't think I could handle that kind of pressure. We're pretty fortunate at my shop that everyone is under 40, but that of course has it's own set of problems with less experience overall on the floor.
There's a problem in the machinist trade. Older machinist for the most part don't like to teach people. Everybody knows this. It happens at every shop. Every machinist thinks they are the best and everybody else is just a peasent. It's just the way it is. 🤷
Man do I feel sorry for you. I've run into a lot of people in my 20 years in the trade, only a very small percentage didn't want to actively share knowledge. I've been training guys to raise their skill level for years now. The more they know, the less I have to do.
@@brandons9138 Your last statement is true. But I do agree with the other guy, some of the older guy seems to feel like if they teach the younger guys to much they maybe replaced before retirement or some shit. Also I get how the older guy feels too because some company has done that B.S. to cut a bit of cost, greedy companies.
@@KBurd1 Shops that pull that kind of shit are just hurting themselves in the long run. I live in the SF Bay Area. We have a large number of machine shops here. Even with that there are quite a few shops that are known to just about everyone in the trade locally for being shit holes, or for just being run poorly. They've become shops that have a hard time holding on to people because of their reputation. Since they are always hiring, people use them to collect a paycheck while looking for better jobs.
I think it boils down to aptitude. Training somebody with great aptitude can be a great experience and fairly easy. Training somebody who doesn't can be a friggin nightmare and very frustrating. Unfortunately the majority don't have aptitude or are eager to learn, they just want a job, not a career.
I agree with you - though I will say, I don't personally have any aptitude when it comes to the mechanical trades, and learning to work with my hands wasn't a natural thing - I like to think I made up for it with my attitude, but I do definitely hear what you're saying. I'll take someone who isn't naturally mechanical but is eager to learn over someone with natural ability and a trash attitude any day!
One pretty universal problem that I frequently ran into was lack of support and/or help because I tended to make more than some of my coworkers. So, rather than trying to be a part of a team effort that would benefit all of us, they'd expend their energies trying to scuttle my efforts. Even supervisors would just throw me at a given project with no discussion whatsoever. Maybe they could have conveyed what they wanted done in any detail at all but their mindset was to undermine me for the "team". Where they would do a job and go back 2 or 3 times to tweak it, I did it in one, every time and they resented that. I don't know how to fix it, but if everyone would just get onboard with the team approach then everyone could just help everyone else, knowing that they would all benefit from the shop doing better. All of these problems could be resolved by always taking the approach that we're all members of the same team and we're here to HELP each other. There's no substitute for teamwork. No team, no work.
"There's no substitute for teamwork. No team, no work." Bingo. The biggest focus in my shop is in company culture. We're all here to get work out the door, no matter who's fingers did the programming, who hit the green button, or who needed help figuring out an issue. Pitting guys against each other sounds like a pretty tried and true method of avoiding them blaming the bosses for the actual issues in the shop, IMO. Really sorry you had to deal with that for so long - I really hope more shops get on board with the team mentality!
Training on the job(s) is something that wasn't received. A lot of shift leads and/or supervisors aren't inclined to enhance your knowledge base outside of what they want you to do. By default you stay an operator that is always in trouble when bad parts are made.
I think the biggest issue is that you have job posting for like 18 bucks 25 bucks. Why learn a highly technical trade that is in reality very dangerous when youll make a couple bucks more than a much safer simpler job. I love machining, its my second trade. Welding being my first. But i would never apply for a machinists job. Its hell.
What I mean by this is the industry won't attract the right people. We are experiencing this in welding tej folds as owners won't offer more than 25 bucks for a new guy in a pipe shop. It attracts the worst people, personality, skill
I really hate when companies post job opening looking for entry level position but must possessed 3-5 years of expierence. 3-5 years is no entry level. 3-5 years is enough to train real entry level personel. Companies do this just so they can pay as minimal as possible.
i own hms machine ripley me toolmaker 40 yrs , welder, mechanic called nearest voc school to hire someone to train told me they have nobody qualified nobody wants to work these days
I think a lot of owners *think* they want a button pusher - and they need to change their thinking on that, because if you have a shop full of nothing but button pushers and one programmer - what happens when that programmer retires? There's an investment needed in the next generation if we expect to have anyone left to keep the trade going, for sure.
It is, definitely! We have an apprenticeship program here, but I do think other shops (and myself included) need to work on making those apprenticeship programs both more enticing and effective if we want to have a shot at a talent pool to draw from moving forward.
Yeh, I just ended up leaving my job as a Machinist because I couldn’t make the money that I needed to support my family. I am 27, and have been a machinist for 5 years. Monday I start my new career as an Engineer making double the pay at an entry level position. It’s sad, but machinist are highly skilled professionals that get terrible pay. Unless pay increases with the rate of inflation then I don’t see many younger generations going into the field. Where I live there are literally people working at Wendy’s making the same money as I did after 5 years in the trade. It’s crazy.
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What are some of your top tips for training the next generation of machinists? Let me (Ian) know here in the comments!
Be patient, young machinists will make mistakes, shit happens.
Start with manual. Both mill and lathe. Overemphasis on centering and the importance of proper clamping and work holding. I “trained” 5 of my peers how to do rudimentary machine work safely and effectively with the small knowledge I had at the time. Lastly I think patience is the ultimate key, if someone is serious about the position they’ll show that they learn from their mistakes.
@@drewc721 Big time!
@@baileyray8020 I absolutely agree with learning basic techniques on manual before moving onto CNC. If you know how a cutter is going to behave or know how a drill feels when you're not using the right speed, it makes transitioning that knowledge over to a CNC much smoother. You understand the "why" a lot more, IMO.
@@iansandusky417 exactly! I feel I learn better that way so that’s the way I went about teaching!
When I had a trainee, the first thing I would ask is what do you want the machine to do? Learning manual machine sure helps. Funny story. We hired a new programmer and we gave him a simple washer to set up. He stared at the print for a long time and blurted out loudly "I don't know where to begin" lol.
As a 17 year shop instructor the most important thing I learned is that mistakes are teaching and learning opportunites. If a mistake is made, and we all make them, use it to teach not just the person who made the mistake, but everyone that might be at the same level. This way there is less chance a mistake is repeated by the next person. The only people who don't make mistakes are those that lie about it and those who do nothing.
This is key. Thank you for bringing this forward.
Well said. 18 yrs in a high school shop. Things go wrong, we all stop immediately and I talk about it. Helps to drive home the danger, cost, and need for constant critical thinking in the work place.
Man, that point kicks ass.
That's so true, the more mistake that you make the better you become because you learn from it. I made a lot of mistake, and ended up being the best.... I know issues that know one at my work has encounter yet. They have years ahead of me.
Eh. Why's it always gotta be about mistakes? I agree with this a little bit but more importantly learn from success
I’ve had the same dead end warehouse job for almost 10 years, screwed around in high school and never thought about my future. I could never see myself going to college and being a clean cut white collar type so now at 30 I’m looking at taking the Machining program at the local career center. My grandpal who has been a machinist for over 40 years told me now’s the time to learn and get your feet in the door cause we can’t get young people into the trade.
I'm retiring after 35 years as a licensed machinist and what I see now is companies are hiring 'operators ' at a much lower rate as everything is cnc now. Smaller shops still require skilled machinists but bigger shops are relying on good programming to allow less skilled operators to run production.
As a recently retired machinist (41 years , all with a great company!). This is what worked for my trainees : first week was one on one. Second week , 4 hours overlap, third week 2 hours overlap, fourth week he was on his own. After that they could come in early as the occasion arose to go over a difficult job etc. After 30 days we would be usually progressing.
Thank you for sharing the knowledge!
Wow, that's a breakneck speed - but I agree! I think hand-holding too long can be a big issue. You need to let people learn to work on their own and figure things out - because if you make them too reliant on you, they're not going to develop the workflow independence that's required for the trade. Thanks for sharing that!
I wish I could do that at my job. Guess I'll go to school
That's a great program and company you worked for....however I been through some companies that only wanted button pushers that teach bare minimum....Today I've learned with minimum help with no schooling....alot of people in my position would of quit but I kept going bcuzz I enjoy the creative process....it's all on the leadership supervisor who want to see someone to succeed...and it's definitely on the employee who enjoys the learning and creative process
I'm gonna sound like a bit of a snob here, but I think good machinists are a certain type of person.
It's a trade that has become grossly underappreciated, both in terms of skill level, and financial compensation.
It takes many years to become a competent machinist. I consider machinists to be at the top of the trades, in terms of applied skills and experience.
You really have to be a highly focused person, with a healthy respect/understanding (most people don't really even comprehend this level of measurement) for precision, a humble approach to learning (because the learning really never stops), and a person who is a hard worker.
It is difficult to find those types of people in the best of times. It's even more difficult considering that the pay has not kept up with the experience level, and a respect for the trade, where employers are concerned (I understand that employers have their own job market factors to contend with).
I don't envy todays machine shop employers. The trade has been relegated overseas for long enough, that the skill level within the job market has all but dried up.
My company can't find competent saw operators or welders. Competent machinists?...or even bright-eyed young machinist candidates? Good luck!
Until owners pay what you earn, things will be tough. I left the trade and got my teaching degree because I was carrying all of the duds with my ability to problem solve, be creative and get things done to spec and quick. Lowest paid machinist at trade school, highest marks, most experience (??). Been a high school metal shop teacher for 18yrs and making 2x what I did with better hrs and low stress conditions. Teaching kids the 'skills of employability' before they get out there so they're not like the duds I worked with. If my boss would have 'showed me the money' who knows, might have stuck it out because I loved the diverse work and mental challenge.
"Teaching kids the 'skills of employability' before they get out there"
I think this is KEY. I think the interpersonal skills of working with other guys in what can be a high-pressure, high-stress job is something that is lacking out there at the moment. Thank you very much for making that a highlight of what you do!
As for the wage issue, I also 100% agree. It's an issue pretty near to my heart at the moment - I thought I might be spending a little too much time voicing my displeasure on it in these videos, but I suppose it's going to be a relevant issue until companies start realizing that underpaying machinists is headed straight towards having zero employable machinists in the very near future. Thanks for watching!
As the older generation has been swapped out for the young high flyers over the last 20 years the issue of training has arrisen and the skills gap has intensified. I wonder where the problem lies. The old school way was to teach skills on the shop floor, as that attitude diminished the skills shortage increased.
I definitely hear you. I think companies have been kind of hoping that it would all kind of figure itself out rather than putting the work and effort into developing their own training programs - and as that hasn't worked out, we're seeing the skills gap only getting worse. Fortunately, I have been to many shops that have fully fleshed out apprenticeship programs that I wish I could have been a part of back when I was coming up!
i've been a machinist for 10 years now, the biggest problem in this trade is cocky a-holes not wanting to train or submit proper documentation on setup sheets. i guess they figure it gives them more job security. I'd suggest based on your video example that they have a weekly half hour meeting with a non targeting of the person that messed up, but an explanation of how to avoid and resolve issues like that in the future.
I followed my father into machining. One of the things I used to fight with him about was that his setup sheets were crap. Missing info, no details, he memorized most of the repeat jobs. He would say it was for job security. I would go behind him and update all the jobs with details and info. 😅😂 he's retired now, and I've moved on from maching because the pay hasn't kept up with inflation, but I do miss it.
This goes both ways. Also have arrogant know it all fucks comming out of tech school that don't want to learn or listen. They think they know everything right out of school
I’m in a Journeyman program at my current place of employment. We are a medical machining shop. We have 5 - axis grinders, Swiss machines, mills, lasers, etc. basically I’m just supposed to have so many hours, or 1 year in every department. 4 years total. College work as well. In this building, we have a huge skill gap, and a very small amount of knowledgeable employees. The rest are what you would call a button pusher, or are working their way up the ranks. I think the biggest tool for properly training new people is getting them with a reliable, experienced operator who can be next to them for at least a month and set them on the right track. Let them screw up, and don’t give them all of the answers. Spoon feeding them isn’t helping anything. Let them problem solve, or come up with at least 3 solutions before they come to you with a problem
i just started in this trade 3 months ago. Best thing i was told was that i will absolutely make huge mistakes but to not repeat and learn from them.
If I was reborn. I would not be a machinist. After 40 plus years 8n the trade . I make 45 an hour live in LA county . I have my resume on Indeed.
Most jobs with my experience 30 per hours tops .
I can't wait to retire.
As a Toolmaker for 40yrs, I can certainly testify to that! And to make matters worse, today's crop of engineers isn't much better! We get a couple of co-ops from the big local engineering university who have surprisingly little mechanical aptitude or experience! The first thing I do with them is give them a Machinery's Handbook, which they have never seem before!
One thing that might be useful is having an "error budget" considered as part of training. No clue what an appropriate number is, but saying "I expect a trainee to cost $X in errors as they're learning" - rather than saying "we need to make sure there's never an error". The biggest learning opportunities and the lessons that stick come from making mistakes and working through them.
I've dealt with this and continue to do so. I think for starters it's important to acknowledge that this trade isn't for everyone. You can't just build someone into a machinist (at least a good one) because they would like to be one. Most people can be operators, fewer can setup, even fewer can program, and even far less than that can do all that needs to be done. I'm finding the lack of necessary skills required to do even simple tasks isn't a result of training or schooling, but because kids aren't engaged with many mechanical things anymore. To be a good machinist it's fundamental to have a mechanical sensibility. Without this, you can only go through the motions. Most of the challenge of machining is solving problems (before they happen) and that can't be done effectively without this sensibility. CNCing has definitely made it easier for the less skilled to make a go of machining and if things keep automating there will be an even bigger issue with the lack of skills. I've been at this awhile and have decades more to go in this trade that I love, but I have a feeling that less and less will get to where I'm at because they can't lift their head up from their phones. I'm not a pessimist. I'm hopeful that kids will start playing outside again and learning about and feeling the forces of nature that build that foundation of mechanical thinking, that for now, seems lost.
@SABRESHOP I'm not exactly sure what it is that you are trying to say. I'm deciphering from your response that you don't feel that a good machinist is someone with a mechanical aptitude. The thing is, I'm not referring to a button pusher. I'm talking about a machinist in the classical sense. Someone who can take an idea and make it become reality. To take a customers part and repair it. Develop at process that doesn't waste time and material and gets the job done neatly and correctly. This cannot be done by just anyone, it takes a mind that can see things happen before they happen. This isn't teachable. It's a gift and not everyone has it. And yes, I agree it is an art, but not everyone can be a great artist.
This sounds like an attitude problem on your part. Plenty of young adults, and I mean 18 year olds born in 2006, are getting into HVAC and plumbing and ironwork and just about every other trade and doing well. There shouldn't be a problem with staff retention, but because of 1. Low-paying operator jobs and 2. No union-business agreement to train and control the labor market like IBEW-JTAC has, you have our current predicament. There are ways to work around this, but it requires time and resources that understandably some people don't have/don't *want* to spare for now.
@@XxLeCaptainxX I couldn't possibly explain my entire nuanced perspective on this, but it's like this; I literally carved my way into the machining trade without schooling or apprenticeship, completely self-taught and continue to be. But I was always the mechanic, always the kid building contraptions, and had a reputation as a kid that can get things to work. Now, I manage a shop and have 30 somethings that have had every opportunity to learn this trade that I had not, tech-schools and college, and it's just apparent that they don't appreciate it for what it is. I'm involved with the local tech-school and see much of the same coming out of it. It's just some job. Although things are changing and more and more parents are accepting that their kids should look into trades as an alternative to academia, the world kids are growing up in has changed from a physical existence to a digital one. Over time the generalized skills that were common will become more specialized, until they almost disappear all together. Humans are tool builders and will always be, but we're also equipped to live a hunter gatherer's lifestyle, and I'm sure you can see that most of us today have not honed those skills either.
An issue I see is the way these entry level positions are marketed. These positions should be marketed apprenticeships or on the job training. That's how I started.
I’m 24 years old, progressive tool and die setter for most of the 6 years in the trade transitioning into a dual setup and tool maintenance role. I’d say another problem I’ve noticed is the trainers themselves don’t fully understand what’s going on, most of my good mechanical knowledge comes from me frankly watching videos like this , reading old literature and operation manuals from the OEM of the press or machine I’m working on. Most people my age don’t have the interest in doing this and the flow of information is suffering severely because of it
I agree, this is a huge issue at the moment! I'm glad to hear you're getting involved in the trade - we need more fresh energy in the industry!
" You cant heli-coil a face mill"....man that made me spit out my beer and nearly roll on the floor laughing.......what a bizarre idea......manual machinist for over 40 years now....cheers
I have a Face mill with heli-coils in it...
@@RoboDriller Ok, your decision....i would never ever run that on my mill....
@@mftmachining, I have not run it. It's a big blue aluminum one, was with a bunch of tool holders. Looked like the inserts broke, then ran it home anyways lol
Im just geting started in school and the certificate set up is like one class per semester so my skills arent there, but my passion for the trade is. I think the best thing for people like me is to find a shop that will teach you while youre at school because the schooling just takes way too long. Also certain teachers treat mistakes differently. I think we are all supposed to make mistakes and learn, but some professors may disagree. I also got blessed to get an apprenticeship with an aerospace shop.
I'm not any kind of experienced teacher, but I've got some questions. Are you trying to find guys that operate CNCs, trying to become machinists, skilled production operators/inspectors/etc., working towards set up, programming, fixturering, these are some pretty varied skills to teach. I started in vocational training for machinist/maintenance machinist/fabricator/repair. School taught us which end of the file to use and how to put a handle on it. Then threads on a manual lathe. A very small amount of milling. Then into the deep end and off to work. There was a shop math (taught me Trig!), and a materials classes in there too. And a tape mill course also, that's useful. But on the job was where it was happening. There were no apprenticeships here on the west coast, circa 1978-79. Buy most of that would not apply now, where would you start? Measuring? Tools that you need? Safety, I suppose safety would be the best place to start. In my experience though, maybe 2 out of 10 will stick around. And there are some really mechanically gifted people out there, they get things right away. I wasn't like that, I really had to work at it, but eventually, the light came on and I got it. Where do you start now?
Start off with a program that is know to 100% work, let them put in the offsets with a edge finder with x, y axis with a .200 and make sure they increment the .100, with Tooling depending on the program setting each tool with a .005 shim either on the part or off the table using a 1.2.3 block using increment.. that's where i'd start with training.
That’s a very good jumping off point - thanks for watching!
Based on the years I spent in high school trade school in the early 70s TWO YEARS 4 hours a day not sure anyone has the patience anymore to train a true machinist
It really is difficult. A lot of shops want guys fully capable as soon as they walk in the door, but that just isn't the reality anymore. If people aren't willing to train, they better be willing to pay absolute top dollar to snag someone capable from someone else!
I did the same in high school, but for electronics. We also had machining, electrical, auto mechanic, auto body, masonry, carpentry, printing, drafting, and a few offers. The tri-county votech program was 4 hrs/day for last 2 years of high school. I graduated in 1990. By 1994 the entire program was shut down, which was the time things began to be outsourced to Asia.
That's a good point. When I was an apprentice (not machining) the mechanics I learned from were very meticulous and thorough. They did not do this for my benefit; it was just the way they always worked.
I always check every dimension, every time, evey day. I dont let a series of parts running unless everything is perfect. You cant be sleepwalking while setting up a machine, you cant relax, you have to be focused 100%. And if something feels off, check it. If you start setting up your machine, get at it fast and motivated, there always could happen something and things go wrong and need time to be fixed. You can always relax afterwards while the machine does your work. And of course Order and Cleanliness, my favourite german words, Take care of your machine, avoid downtime, have your tools in order. I hate searching for tools.
I’ve been going to school to become a machinist for the last year, every single shop I’ve applied to won’t even hire me for an operator position because I don’t have work experience. It’s extremely frustrating because I’m going to school to become a programmer, I have experience programming and operating yet nobody will take the opportunity to train me. I don’t understand why a shop wouldn’t hire somebody whose trying to make a career in machining for an entry level position. Most shops in my area want operators to have 3-5 years experience and offer $15-18 an hour, it’s kinda ridiculous.
That's seriously frustrating. I think that some companies / areas haven't quite clued in yet as to what kind of situation we're in, and think they can still cherry pick top pre-trained talent for garbage wages - because that's the way it's been for decades. Now, the 'power' as it were has shifted to more positions out there than there are guys to fill them - at least for what they're offering - so they either need to get with the times, get wages and training programs up - or fail. It really is a reckoning moment out there right now, IMO.
What state are you in? If you're in Northern CA I know a ton of places looking. Shoot me a message.
@SABRESHOP This isn't off topic at all my man, this is actually very interesting! Honestly if the pay was right, I know a decent amount of guys who would love to do this kind of work - it doesn't sound much different in execution than everyone from my hometown flying out to Alberta for several months at a time to work the oil fields. People are more than willing to go where the money is, so if you can find a way to connect the talent willing to work with the employers willing to pony up the cash to get their critical work done, I think you might have something there!
Very true. I got lucky and snuck in back door at a aerospace shop. Now everybody wants to hire me and I'm only 5 years in. It helps that I live in the pnw and there are machine shops everywhere. I've never been to a trade school but I am training a journeyman machinist right now that shouldn't even be called a operator 🤣
After 5 years as a machinist the most I was making was 20 an hour. I quit, went into a different field, and make double that now.
The wages is what is killing the trade in my opinion. Especially for how dangerous the work can potentially be
I think it helps to explain to new people everything that goes into the process of getting a part of. From programming to setting up a machine and operating then checking a part. Obviously you cant teach em everything at once but if I'm showing someone how to set a tool I'll also show them how to step a tool down and why the spot in the machine youre setting the tool on can make a huge difference depending on where the work offset is set. It helps them understand why they're doing things while they learn and they end up with a better perspective on what it is they're actually doing.
Absolutely. Thank you for sharing this.
You’re definitely not wrong - most people don’t begin to understand the scope of the job, and helping to build that through your training can make a big difference down the line - thanks for the post!
Subscribed! This kinda content is extremely helpful. Would be nice to do some content on how to work your way up in a competitive shop? How does someone progress and have the edge over their coworkers?
Thanks for the sub! Great topic for a future video...
Thank you! That’s a great topic and one I can definitely add to the future list - I appreciate the suggestion!
This is 100% a owner issue. Every owner i have dealt with i have brought people in and was willing to hire train and fire and not a single one of those owners was willing to fire bad guys. They expect every person who wants a job to be trained into a great machinist. All the while underpayment there good guys and keeping those people who lose them money daily. I have never had a company let me take over the getting guys portion as soon as I hired the first person they got scared I was gunna take over there shop. Shop owners these days suck. This isn't even an issue. Most people who are gunna be good machinist don't even require someone to train them. They will train themselves and just ask questions.
interesting videos as always. I like hearing your perspective and reading the comments. I just entered the machining world at my local trade school.
Thank you very much! There's a lot of really interesting perspectives in the comments here, I agree - I really appreciate people taking time out of their day to share knowledge, it's excellent to see!
You referring to Lean Six Sigma Black Belts. And the document you're talking about is called a failure mode effects analysis. Telling the occurrence with a rating system called the RPN based upon severity occurrence rate and detection. I'm pretty sure automotive standards such as IATF 16949 says the FMEA should contain corrective actions for each occurrence. I just started machining a week ago and I want to get good at it. Recommendations?
The Titans of CNC folks have lots of fancy training materials. Worth looking at if you’re interesting in training machinists.
Make them take the earbuds out and put the phone down. Stupid shit that happens that shouldn't because they are not paying attention to what they're doing.
I have no degree in CNC. I was trained on the job in a small town shop I was making $20/hr when I took a job with an hour drive 1 way to make $24/hr but better benefits.
I was laid off in 2/2024 but was making $29/hr
Luckily I was hired back on where I was but am doing more work, required to learn fusion360 to program, set up, and run and make now make $24/hr.
I like CNC machining, but I feel I should be making more with all the work involved. Programming, setup, run on lathes and 3 axis mills.
That's a really good del you got there sir
I've been saying this issue is coming, for the last 20 years!
I've been working as a CNC milling operator for 4 months, no previous experience. The system my shop has in place is that on every setup or tool change, it must be buddy checked and signed of by another operator. Not sure if other shops have this system.
Safety..the safety again then some more safety.....
I start my first machinist job on tuesday and i am incredibly nervous
THANK YOU FOR THIS VIDEO IS THERE A WAY TO COPIY THIS TO SHOW THE OWNERS OF OUR SHOP? IT WAS HELPFUL. DO YOU HAVE MORE?
Thanks
My pleasure, thanks for watching!
I started my shop so I could train more machinists but I just can't seem to get enough work to do that.
At the end of the day, I think that it comes down to one thing and that's creativity, how do you train that your either born with it or not. The second is Passion because if they lack that no matter how many times you show them how to measure a tool length offset, they will never remember...sometimes like in the case of somebody who was once working for me a lack of passion nearly lead to their death, thank God I was standing there and happened to be in the right place at the right time. I think that much of what we see in shops is because the people simply don't want to be there anyway so who gives a shit. as a shop owner and operator this is the one thing that I look for in employees and if I see it, we talk about it because life is too short to be in a machine shop doing "slave" labor if you don't want to be there in the first place. To me the machine operator work was a means to an end and because of that I embraced it. now that I am a shop owner, and the work wouldn't get done unless I do it, I can say that I would be a model employee at any shop that I worked at previously. As I said previously creativity is the rare quality that makes a journeyman into a grandmaster, however passion can elevate even the most unskilled guy into something unstoppable.
10:00 I'm an engineer who recently got a job for the first time that actually fabricates something. I was thinking that our shop should just have a computer all the guys can use to just air any grievances they have. If you're finding things are fucking up over and over again, it could be something we've overlooked, or at least something we could do to make things go easier.
90% of the guys at my shop dont have great English, but id love to just have them write down their problems somewhere in Spanish so that I could translate and try to help.
In the uk we do a proper apprenticeship that’s 5 year spending every day with a proper skilled Guy he’ll start with man turning milling grinding then progresss to Cnc one day a week day release @ college for the full 5 year doing the academical side….it’s the only way
That's the case here in Canada as well - the caveat being that the Red Seal program (our certification system) is 100% optional. You don't need a day of schooling to be legally allowed to work as a machinist in Canada, so that's why we see a lot of these 'alternative' teaching methods pop up.
@@iansandusky417 it’s pretty much like that here but all the blue chip companies like Rolls Royce…Lockheed…Airbus..etc to name a few no matter how much experience you have…you will not even get near the door never mind an interview if you don’t complete the 5 year and pass college…it’s a floor in the system that needs addressing a lot of guys go to night school to get the academic side but it’s still not the same…the difference in money is huge from a Time served guy to non time served Not qualified £ 30k Qualified £70k per year…Formula 1 jobs paying £100k a year in the uk
@@chrisyboy666 That's massive gap! It's pretty crazy here in Canada - when I was young working here at my dad's shop, he had 15 guys on the floor - all on manual machines, and each and every one of them had a Red Seal certification. Now, I haven't seen a Red Seal certified machinist / toolmaker's resume come across my desk in likely 7-8 years. The companies that have them must be treating them very, very well - but the other side of it is that to get your Red Seal here, you need to have 8000 hours of apprenticeship signed off on by your company and write the appropriate tests. What I think I'm seeing (and I could be wrong) is a movement away from emphasis on getting guys certified by the companies, so the pool is dwindling. It's a crazy world out there!
@@iansandusky417 it revolves around the quality system British standards iso 5750 And 9001 and the As 1200…companies need these to able to supply into the Aero energy oil and gas industries and Automotive…every employee needs to pass an exam based on the QM he then gets a stamp and every job they do wether it’s a washer or a complex part gets your number on it …to get awarded this stamp you have to have done a 5 year apprenticeship so the the big companies can’t and won’t employ anyone not certified as as soon as they get Audited they will lose their quality certification so most companies are forced to hire apprentices every year …
@@chrisyboy666 Who is paying their machinists £70k in the UK? I have worked in the industry for 10 years, and served an advanced apprenticeship and never heard of these figures. For 70k a year I will sell my machine shop and go and work for someone else.
I tried to be a machineist with three different shops, as you say, deperately looking to fill their ranks. They want educated people or prior experience. One shop offered to take me on as shop clean-up, but $12/hr doesn't pay bills. If you want people these days you gotta take em in, train them in house, and pay them a living wage, which is approaching $27/hr for low income areas. If you don't want to do that, you aren't really that desperate. If you can't afford it, then the marketplace has decided you're a failure, close up shop. I finally found a industrial production facility that hired me to do repairs, no prior experience, they train and certify me in everything they need. $32/hr starting out, so I am doing a little better than getting by these days. Full coverage health-care as well, no deductibles, extends to my family, if I had one. Hopefully, I can start pulling $50-60/hr in a few years, so I can actually afford to start living. If anyone accepts less than this these days, they are simply part of the problem. Want workers? Pay us.
€1'000 a week for a trainee in a "low income area" ? 🙄😂
@@peterfitzpatrick7032 Let's get cloer to 2000 and we can start talking about making the mininum needed to live.
Where you live at !!!
@@MrWilbur63 montana
@@zpgJiggleBilly I’m in south Florida trying to find that pays 30 plus
Have you been in the shops? They are all running out of work/going out of business. Not to mention, no one wants to take on an apprentice anymore. Would be nice to find a place to learn the trade.
How long does it take to learn to be a cnc set up and operating the machines?
Just because you may be skilled machinist with plenty of experience does not automatically make you a good teacher. And that goes with any profession.
Heres how it is West Coast Canada. You can go into machining and, after a few years proving you wont crash $100K machines - Make $25-30 an hour . Always you are competing with offshore. If you ever want to go on your own you will have to buy those $100K machines yourself.
Or, You can go into construction, Make $30-40 an hour very quickly, No on cares if you have a ticket if you can do the work. And with about $1k in tools you can get all the cash side work you can handle. And no offshore competition. If I could do it ll again....
The steep learning curve and high startup cost to do it yourself are two big issues, I agree. If we don’t properly incentivize people to enter the trade over something with better pay and less training - We’re going to struggle to have a talent pool of new recruits! Thanks for watching!
I left construction to come into machining. My pay is about the same & i actually get benefits. I still do construction side work on the side but I spent more then $1k in tools. Plus you have lay offs. The only way you’re making good money in construction is union. This is coming from a former carpenter.
Machining has been good to me so far. It pays decent if you’re skilled, and I don’t have to drive 2 hours to work or spend a lot of time away from family everyday. Plus you know what you compete with in construction? People on shore who can always “do it cheaper” (likely illegal immigrants and scabs who like low wages) The grass is always greener on the other side.
ya about that.
how many ppl have tried out machining
only to go n be a plumber r electrician
millwright r carpenter etc.
my advice is:
go to school n learn the basics at college first.
take machinist pre-apprenticeship course first like i did.
that tells me you thought about it, you done some of it,
n now you have an idea what it is n you r likely to continue doing it.
my advice would be: do Not Train random ppl !
I'd like your/ your community input on this one.... I'm lining up to be a production manager at the back end of a business sell off. I would not accept prior to this due to unorganized management. Now my issue is the most senior guy, whom is not the greatest, but is a punctual employee and always there. He tends to chit chat, skip out on part checks, and the worst part is a bully to new learners. I have personally seen 4 guys leave because of the effect his demeanor towards them. If someone makes a mistake, he tries hard to make then feel bad, not instruct how to fix or any helpful input at all. He is buddy buddy with general manager, and thus gives him his entitlement to do as he pleases. When I step in, I don't want to push him out. But show him how to be a supporting member of the team. Also, I may need him to listen when I take the reigns. Any advice or help would be appreciated. Thank you all!! And keep on keeping on!
Ah man, sounds like the stereotypical FOG, that's extremely difficult to deal with. I had almost the exact same situation at my shop before I got into management - guy was a brilliant tool and die machinist, and could do just about anything - but he was the saltiest dude I have ever met, and not in the 'oh that kinda funny' way. I don't think anyone actually directly quit because of the way he treated his coworkers, but there was definitely a real garbage mood in the shop when he was around. While he left and I didn't have to deal directly with him since I started managing, I have had guys like him.
For me, it took leveling with them and making them aware of what they were doing - having a pretty honest conversation that while yes, they're a key element of the team, I *need their help* to train up the new guys, and what *we're doing* right now isn't working. It can be easy for guys to say you just fire guys like this and move on, I think taking responsibility (whether real or not) for the way they're behaving and specifically asking for their help (rather than just berating the way they're training) can really help shift them from the automatic defensive mode into a more helpful way of thinking. Guys like this likely came up in an environment where they were treated the same way - so it's not *all* their fault, despite their conduct not really being appropriate or tolerated anymore.
Personally, I'd approach it like that. Stroke their ego just enough to keep them from getting hostile, and try to frame a request to change their attitude as them helping you out. If that fails, (assuming that they're not being outright abusive, which I won't tolerate) - I'd give them one more come to Jesus talk being more direct that what they're doing isn't working - and then probably reconsider their role in my shop.
The other mistake I see shops make is assuming that every experienced guy is going to be a good teacher or has to be some kind of mentor for the next generation. Some fantastic machinists are absolute trash at teaching, or communication in general - and that's fine! Trying to shoehorn every person out there into a teaching role isn't reality. Maybe they need to be put in a role where they do their own thing, make parts, and leave - with pretty explicit instructions not to bother the apprentices.
Thanks for the question - that's a really poignant topic right now!
@@iansandusky417 thank you. I planned on the ego stroking technique. It just seems the best. With the second step being more direct. This was an insightful response.
We must get away from the training model based on rubbing a puppy's nose in the poop on the carpet. Which goes back to the topic of how we make this trade more attractive to potential machinist trainees. In so many cases the culture of the shop floor is the background for machinist training, and that culture is usually led by the senior employees. Senior employees who may have had their skillset minimized during raise reviews. Who may take for granted the skills they use everyday, not recognizing that someone new is missing a key nuance in handling a micrometer, or bore gauge, and is getting inconsistent measurements, or forcing the metrology tool to deform toward tolerance. Because the first lesson learned is "Don't Crap the Carpet"
Couldn't agree more, you make a really excellent point here. I wish more guys had that same mindset - here's to hoping more shops give their head a shake and come around to this viewpoint before it's too late!
If I learn CNC machining, I could earn a few dollars more per hour and I'd be good at it. I'm hoping to convert a $1,000 mini mill to CNC to learn the trade. I took a machine shop class 25 years ago.
I find that a lot of shops out there don't have the time to train at all and expect you to know it all out of school and make no mistakes. Every small mistake you make is met with screaming and finger pointing.
Unfortunately, I do think you've got a point. I've said elsewhere here and in the Instagram comments that if your shop relies on underpaying inexperienced machinists to do high level work with zero margin for error - your shop is literally set up to fail. If the work you're doing is *that* tight to the wire, you're chasing the wrong work, and that job was never going to be profitable to begin with.
The shame is that shops for decades had the ability to be picky and pick only what they wanted out of an existing talent pool that was both skilled and eager to work. That talent pool doesn't exist anymore, and too many companies are still acting like it does. There's a pretty stiff reckoning coming, IMO.
They need to start from zero to understand the process......I started welding with oxy/Acet filler rod and adapted to TIG easily. Someone that started with MIG doesn't get it easily. I started machining before the CNC era and adapted easily. Someone that is a community college wiz at Master Cam cannot "chase threads". We need to bring back apprenticeship programs or be prepared to train and hold hands. Spreadsheets and evaluation is not the answer, we need to bring back the basics.
This is a problem that should have been dealt with a long time ago now it's helter skelter and all the tribal knowledge is walking out the door in the next few years with a huge gap between the guys that know how to do this stuff and those that don't. I like to teach the younger guys whatever I know and I find I get just as much out of it as they do. I'm currently mentoring my nephew who is very bright and capable and has a good sense for things. I think you have to have a certain mentality and ability to problem solve and have extreme attention to detail. Many people just don't have that, and they won't last. First let's stop kidding ourselves that anyone can be trained to do this line of work. I don't believe that to be true. Just like not everyone can be a doctor or lawyer, not everyone can be a machinist. Second the so called tech schools need to find out what the companies in their respective area actually need and tailor the training around that. Instead they are still teaching manual machining when most areas are nothing but CNC job shops where these kids will never see a Bridgeport. They need to know how to be a capable operator, which means understanding technical drawings, tolerances and how to properly measure. They spend so much time on theory and not nearly enough doing the actual job. Half the schools don't even have modern CNC equipment so they are teaching on Proto Trak mills, which is better than nothing but still not what most will encounter in the field. It's going to take a huge commitment from large companies and small to help mentor the next generation. Let's also admit that the trade needs a face lift too, no one wants to work in some dingy dark dungeon. Clean well lit organized shops that don't seem like a prison would help. You can't throw some young guy or gal on a machine with little training and expect there to be no problems that's your fault!
First of all manual machining gives the person a feel for how material cuts. The sound that the machine and the metal makes when it is be cut. This is how to set speed and feeds
this works for both lathes and mills. manual machines are for the basics
Then you go to cnc machining
once they get a feel for manual machines
when I was doing my apprenticeship I hung out with the older guy's, I asked questions and listened. they shared their experiences.
throwing a person on a cnc to soon only causes scrap and your people don't learn anything. computers are great but they don't know when a cutter is too sharp yes too sharp, a too sharp cutter tends to grab and gouge. the computer doesn't know that the stainless part your working on is getting work harden. a cnc machine on know what someone who is not running the part tells it to do. Carbide is great but there are times when good old high speed steel works better
this is coming from 30 plus experience working in aerospace, I cut details from everything from Teflon to titanium and a lot of stainless and tons of all grades of aluminum. this video is right a lot of baby boomers have or are retiring real soon and all that tribal knowledge will be gone a lot of this can't be put in books
@@edmiera3583 I’m the youngest guy in a shop of 40 plus year olds maybe like 3-4 20-30 year old we are screwed when they’re gone
i find it hard to train people above a certain level, they give up at a certain stage on earning and think they are not paid enough to do them parts ,then say they can get a job anywhere paid more with what they do already , They get scared of the cost of material , being told it needs doing for delivery next day , then use an excuse they are to good to do production parts and get bored that is the reason 50% is scrap , i was always told 30 years ago you do what you are given if you don't like it fuck off , if you scrap to much fuck off lol , everything was you can fuck off , but we also had a back hander for a good month share of scrap money , its not like it used to be .
That definitely was a different world - what are some things you find most helpful when you're tasked with training someone new? Do you hand-hold or prefer to let it rip and let them make their own mistakes?
HR hires managers who have degrees, masters and phds in engineering, who are trained for a desk job but do not know anything about machining, welding, mechanics, electrical etc. These people get paid the big bucks for giving orders, but do not have any practical experience or technical acumen, and yet they are in charge. Meanwhile, experienced workers are passed over for promotion, are looked down upon by managers as glorified laborers and dismissed just as quickly .So, the experience and maturity is lost, and inexperience and immaturity is hired. The problem is not hard to figure out. Any thoughts?
I dont know what it is but in this trade there seems to be knowledge hoarders and people dont want to share knowledge or all of it it's very discouraging.
I’ve definitely encountered the kind of people you’re talking about, and IMO it comes from a place of insecurity - if I don’t teach someone everything I know and 2 jobs are always “my” jobs in the shop, I can’t get replaced, right? It’s fortunately not super common, but I do know what you’re talking about. Thanks for watching!
Every trade has that same problem. It's not unique to machining.
Whoever the owner of the shop is, the man who pays the bills and sign the check needs to find and hire one man for the job.
He needs to bring in someone and interview him for hours and asking him tons of questions.
This individual needs similar background experience like what the shop makes.
How he can make the shop better and profitable should be the main goal.
This candidate must have a mentally to make a better part everytime.
Give him the power to hired and fired who he sees fit.
Why should the guy paying the bills need to worry about training new employees, when one guy can take care all of it.
I think the biggest issue is the older generations who think kids don’t want to learn but when we try we get shit on anyway or they won’t tell us anything actually helpful to stay into it
Training other machinist have steps to set-up a CNC to complete its work. The first week of training's all you need to help others understand how the job's done while the machinist's learn to do set-ups and operate a CNCs what a machinist has to know!
...It's not so much a "Skills Gap" it's a "Wage Gap." If I'm only making a couple bucks an hour more than a general laborer, what's the point.
I really wish my school offered trade program
I've been looking for meachiest position for awhile. I have experance in manual and a little on CNC. Most shop want to work 50 to 60 hours a week. I not interested in that many hours. Really! No life for meachinest shop people.
Is pay any good?
Average at best. You will live a middle class life living paycheck to paycheck with a few grand in your savings.
I make notes in the programs
Try the Five Whys
There's multiple angles to this issue. If you're talking Machinist versus machine operator, the problem starts with pay rates that attract higher quality candidates. I've found it nearly impossible to train a person with an operator's aptitude into a proficient skilled Machinist with the mental abilities to do the job.
As for pay rates; job shop machining is one of the most competitive businesses that exist. Most businesses know what their competitors are charging, but job shops don't, which drives pricing down and puts downward pressure on shop wages.
Nice
Why aren't there any machinist apprenticeships especially in the Southern US? Granted unions are more prevalent in Northern states but entry level workers need hands-on learning after trade school. They're not going to find it if companies aren't willing to train the next generation of machinists!
Its not that they cant learn ,they dont care is the problem
How does someone who has a full time job obtain machinist training?
If you are not good at problem solving or are not mechanically inclined forget about this trade. I see guys in this trade that can figure out a problem just by looking at a part and other guys that could never in a million years solve that little problem. You either have it or you don’t there is no in between. It’s not always the trainers fault that the apprentice doesn’t learn.
We were just told vacations for ‘21 are cancelled, 10 hour minimum days until mid January w 12/25 and 1/31 off….all so the German CEO can get his fiscal year bonus…..we work in Ohio, he has a corporate office in California ……can’t find machinists, and the guys we hire are all over 55. This shit is dying off….learn to program.
Man, that's grim. At my shop, we frankly have more work than we know what to do with - but we're still only working a half day (but whole day paid) today so we can do the company Christmas lunch, and we're shutting down from Dec 23rd to Jan 3rd - with no expectation of my guys coming in at all, though they're more than welcome to come in and work if they'd like to make some extra cash.
Not at all to brag or hold myself up as some kind of saint - far from it - but I really don't understand how companies think they can continue with this nose to the grindstone / Protestant work ethic thing anymore when the wages and working conditions don't support it.
@@iansandusky417 I’m 47 and the youngest in the shop by 4 years….one guy retires next week and the manager publicly called him out for leaving us hanging. It is pretty grim right now.
@@marksantoro2110 That is indeed pretty grim. I saw a post / video somewhere the other day where literally an entire department retired out at a mold shop, and there was one younger guy who was brought in and trying to learn something like 60 years worth of custom fixturing and programs before the 'old departments' last day. I don't think I could handle that kind of pressure. We're pretty fortunate at my shop that everyone is under 40, but that of course has it's own set of problems with less experience overall on the floor.
There's a problem in the machinist trade. Older machinist for the most part don't like to teach people. Everybody knows this. It happens at every shop. Every machinist thinks they are the best and everybody else is just a peasent. It's just the way it is. 🤷
Man do I feel sorry for you. I've run into a lot of people in my 20 years in the trade, only a very small percentage didn't want to actively share knowledge. I've been training guys to raise their skill level for years now. The more they know, the less I have to do.
@@brandons9138 Your last statement is true. But I do agree with the other guy, some of the older guy seems to feel like if they teach the younger guys to much they maybe replaced before retirement or some shit. Also I get how the older guy feels too because some company has done that B.S. to cut a bit of cost, greedy companies.
@@KBurd1 Shops that pull that kind of shit are just hurting themselves in the long run. I live in the SF Bay Area. We have a large number of machine shops here. Even with that there are quite a few shops that are known to just about everyone in the trade locally for being shit holes, or for just being run poorly. They've become shops that have a hard time holding on to people because of their reputation. Since they are always hiring, people use them to collect a paycheck while looking for better jobs.
I think it boils down to aptitude.
Training somebody with great aptitude can be a great experience and fairly easy.
Training somebody who doesn't can be a friggin nightmare and very frustrating.
Unfortunately the majority don't have aptitude or are eager to learn, they just want a job, not a career.
I agree with you - though I will say, I don't personally have any aptitude when it comes to the mechanical trades, and learning to work with my hands wasn't a natural thing - I like to think I made up for it with my attitude, but I do definitely hear what you're saying. I'll take someone who isn't naturally mechanical but is eager to learn over someone with natural ability and a trash attitude any day!
One pretty universal problem that I frequently ran into was lack of support and/or help because I tended to make more than some of my coworkers. So, rather than trying to be a part of a team effort that would benefit all of us, they'd expend their energies trying to scuttle my efforts.
Even supervisors would just throw me at a given project with no discussion whatsoever. Maybe they could have conveyed what they wanted done in any detail at all but their mindset was to undermine me for the "team".
Where they would do a job and go back 2 or 3 times to tweak it, I did it in one, every time and they resented that.
I don't know how to fix it, but if everyone would just get onboard with the team approach then everyone could just help everyone else, knowing that they would all benefit from the shop doing better.
All of these problems could be resolved by always taking the approach that we're all members of the same team and we're here to HELP each other.
There's no substitute for teamwork. No team, no work.
Sounds like it's time for you to move on.
@@jongordon1145 retired.... problem solved :)
"There's no substitute for teamwork. No team, no work."
Bingo. The biggest focus in my shop is in company culture. We're all here to get work out the door, no matter who's fingers did the programming, who hit the green button, or who needed help figuring out an issue. Pitting guys against each other sounds like a pretty tried and true method of avoiding them blaming the bosses for the actual issues in the shop, IMO. Really sorry you had to deal with that for so long - I really hope more shops get on board with the team mentality!
@@iansandusky417 :)
Manual lathe, start with that, once a person makes it to a mill they will never want to learn a lathe
Hire the right kind of person.
I've seen so much time/ money wasted on people who are never going to get it.
Companies that do not take on apprentices don't deserve skilled workers.
Training on the job(s) is something that wasn't received. A lot of shift leads and/or supervisors aren't inclined to enhance your knowledge base outside of what they want you to do. By default you stay an operator that is always in trouble when bad parts are made.
I think the biggest issue is that you have job posting for like 18 bucks 25 bucks. Why learn a highly technical trade that is in reality very dangerous when youll make a couple bucks more than a much safer simpler job.
I love machining, its my second trade. Welding being my first. But i would never apply for a machinists job. Its hell.
What I mean by this is the industry won't attract the right people. We are experiencing this in welding tej folds as owners won't offer more than 25 bucks for a new guy in a pipe shop. It attracts the worst people, personality, skill
I woke,up thenIwentdowntownto lookfora job.
I really hate when companies post job opening looking for entry level position but must possessed 3-5 years of expierence. 3-5 years is no entry level. 3-5 years is enough to train real entry level personel. Companies do this just so they can pay as minimal as possible.
All good advice. Tribal knowledge will end up causing you big problems. Document it and make it retrievable.
Thank you sir!
Paper pusher bullshit jobs pay more ,and most people don’t have an idea .How much it takes to create a part to specks !
i own hms machine ripley me toolmaker 40 yrs , welder, mechanic called nearest voc school to hire someone to train told me they have nobody qualified nobody wants to work these days
start by educating the parents. kids will never get into trades if their parents wont allow them
Hire me as machinist pls i know conventional or cnc 8 years total experience
No amout of "organizing" is going to teach someone how much torque an insert screw needs.
Senior
Well it’s easy to train them, just show them how to push the green button. That’s what most owners want, a button pusher not a machinist these days
I think a lot of owners *think* they want a button pusher - and they need to change their thinking on that, because if you have a shop full of nothing but button pushers and one programmer - what happens when that programmer retires? There's an investment needed in the next generation if we expect to have anyone left to keep the trade going, for sure.
simple solution. it's called an apprenticeship....
It is, definitely! We have an apprenticeship program here, but I do think other shops (and myself included) need to work on making those apprenticeship programs both more enticing and effective if we want to have a shot at a talent pool to draw from moving forward.
Hire new guys.
Teach them.
First guy to tell them to "grab a broom" gets fired.
My god...lets go back to the 1990s.
Yeh, I just ended up leaving my job as a Machinist because I couldn’t make the money that I needed to support my family.
I am 27, and have been a machinist for 5 years. Monday I start my new career as an Engineer making double the pay at an entry level position.
It’s sad, but machinist are highly skilled professionals that get terrible pay. Unless pay increases with the rate of inflation then I don’t see many younger generations going into the field.
Where I live there are literally people working at Wendy’s making the same money as I did after 5 years in the trade. It’s crazy.
Common sense is no longer common. its sad really
Stick to the basics
Hard to go wrong with that!