Cooker Circuits Diversity, 15kW load, 32A circuit breaker.
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- Опубликовано: 1 июн 2020
- Cooker circuits for domestic properties. Protective device, cable size, and what can be connected to the end of it.
In virtually all cases, a 32A MCB and 4mm² cable is suitable for cooking devices up to 15kW.
For connecting to the appliance(s), either 4mm² or 2.5mm² H07RN-F flex depending on the connected load.
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I honestly think they should get you to write the next edition of the wiring regs John👍🏻
Amen to that.....
Agreed. And once the regs are confirmed and finalised, that’s that!!!! I’m fed up of regs changing, you never know wether you’re coming or going.
The only reason the regs change is for some clown to justify his/her job:
* walk into building*
*hmmmmm..........what nonsense can we make up today just to piss everyone off??*
*ohhhhh, I know,*
@@w415hyz if they didnt come up with new ass rules they would be out of job, so why you think they do it
A couple of points in this video I have had a disagreement with my assessor over the last couple of years......he nearly shat when I showed him this😂😂
@@w415hyz You forgot about £ that they earn from sale of these books😁
Your method of teaching is absolutely first class every word you use has value and is not in the least superfluous to your explanation when setting out your examples etc I really do enjoy these mini lectures and the skill with which you impart your subject matter . By far one of the best you tube channels out there bar non on electrical matters . Thankyou for your effort on this channel which is reflected in your number of loyal subscribers .
"every word you use has value and is not in the least superfluous" - oh yes some are - when he's in dry humour mode - which occurs a few times in his videos.
In this video, paraphrasing: "if you're the type of person who puts it in and just uses it for 20 years without cleaning behind it, this does not apply to you" (Which from my experience seems to be most people!)
Totally agree with every word!
TheChipmunk2008 - what’s this strange thing you speak of “cleaning”? 😂
I can only second that! Also very clear English and good pronunciation which really help if someone is not native speaker.
Thankyou for the clear explanation and break down of the explanation into simple steps. The hidden humour of cleaning behind a 20 year cooker made me chuckle too.
Excellent, informative video thanks. We’re about to have our kitchen refitted and are swapping to an induction hob from gas and a number of kitchen suppliers and electricians have told us that we’ll need a dedicated 32Amp supply from the consumer unit even though we have an existing 32Amp cooker circuit with only our single electric oven on it. One suggestion we were given was to put the new Induction hob on the existing oven circuit and then add the 3.2kW oven to the kitchen socket ring main, hardwired. Now I’ve watched this and learnt about Diversity I know that both the new 7.35kW induction hob and 3.2kW oven (20.77Amp total) can be run on the existing 32Amp cooker circuit . Thank you
I have lost count of the times that someone has called me in to install a cooker and the salesman has told them it will need a 50a supply and everything upgrading. Haven't needed a supply greater than 32a yet. :) Great video as always.
The manual for my Gorenje cooker states that it requires a 32A or 40A breaker ("depending on type", so I assume 40B or 32C?) and a 3*4mm2 flex cable. But I have a C40 breaker on this circuit, so I used a 3*6mm2 flex cable.
When I studied a long time ago it was always 60 amps- things have changed allot since...
My apprentice was talking about you today, said you were better than her college tutor. I do believe she learns far more from you than college....so thought I'd see for myself and I don't think she's wrong.....keep up the good work
As a building control officer with no electrical training I am so impressed with the explanations given in your videos. I very much appreciate your time and effort, you have explained clearly with clear understandable examples. I am not an electrician but feel more confident in my role with regards to understanding electrical work in domestic properties. Thank You .
Really helped me with my kitchen hob/oven install and working out the load with diversity applied. Thank you.
As an old spark I wished I'd have had you as a lecturer back in the late 1960s when I was at college
Love this channel. Always something to learn and I’m not a sparky!
John, greatly explained, thank you. Found your channel by chance and now wonder how I ever did without it .
Brilliant John you have a fantastic way of explaining things I'm not a spark but I always find your channel entertaining and I actually understand it thank you
Brilliant video John, as always. Love the way you explain things. 👍
This has been a refreshing albeit vindicating video for me, fantastic/straightforward and common sense view on the difference between the use of 4mm and 6mm size cable. Thank you John. 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Just about to start a kitchen renovation, your videos have literally put me at ease and I now have a great understanding of the work that will be needed to be done and how it can be done. Fantastic!!
In my opinion you do best tutorials on British you tube about the science and practical things regarding electric work.
Well done👌
Can find out more from your videos than from the college. Many thanks for your work.
Oh my god I wish I had seen this before so helpful and reassuring love your matter of fact tone and the clear and concise math
Some put sub CU's in kitchens to keep all kitchen appliance isolation switches at one convenient point. Grid switches can do the same with switches available with words like _cooker,_ _fridge,_ etc, on them. A small CU using double pole mcbs is cheap and quicker to install. About 15 years ago MEM made a kitchen specific box and isolation switches with the switches labelled _hob,_ _fridge,_ etc. I have not seen it sold for a long time.
Where all heavy appliances are in the kitchen (even an immersion in a kitchen cupboard), I have seen a heavy cable from the main CU at the front of a house run to the kitchen at the back of the house in a sub CU for the kitchen. It reduced the volume of cables needed simplifying the installation. Quicker to install and local isolation of the appliances at the sub CU.
Love your dry sense of humour. Great tips. Thanks
So well explained and as previous comments anybody could learn with your technique of teaching
One of the best videos on domestic cooker installation, so many sparkies don't understand it and panic when coming to install electric range cooker- just dividing W/V and coming up with 16mm2 cable, not taking into account thermostats and energy regulators which allow for use of diversity factor.
The way its presented is so simple that every layman would understand.
Well done Sir!
Great video John. I recently installed a cooker circuit, but never gave the cable size much thought and just assumed 6mm cable was a good choice, and certainly seemed to be the norm. I now realise 4mm is perfectly adequate on a 32A MCB. Thanks
Great video as always John. I've always installed a cooker circuit on 6mm because that's the way it's always been done. I've always got 4mm that rarely gets used and keep buying rolls of 6mm. Time to start using up the 4mm me thinks 😃😃
Thanks John for producing easy understanding video, I would be lost with out your explanation. Thank again
I love this video. Thank you. It's so frustrating seeing people on forums advocating 10mm2 cable with 45a MCBs for cooker circuits without any rationale.
P JD You need to come to mine for a full Christmas dinner! Three ovens, eight rings and warming cupboard going full tilt. If the lights don't dim across South London it means I have forgotten one of the veg.
@@r.h.8754 22amps
@@spencerwilton5831
The old Christmas dinner fear. They will not be all on at once as thermostats cut in.
@johnburns4017 if they are all on, how long until it trips?
This has answered a question I've long wondered about. You're a champion, thankyou!
For me, this is the best site for electrical know how. I very much appreciate your knowledgeable, helpful posts. First class & very thorough👍
Fantastic.
Very well explained
Clear and easy to understand. Thank you John.
Thank you John for the comfirmation on Cooker Circuits, just what I thought.
Thank you John. Wonderfully informative. As always.
Thanks again, John. Not the first time you've saved me money and educated me.
Very informative as usual. I shall be placing on any consumer units installed a notice saying "in compliance with JW regs", as JW regs are more authoritive and clearly explained than the On Site Guide and BS7671:2018, lol.
Awesome video as always great teaching methods very easy to listen to , Thanks JW 👍
Yet another fantastic video for a learner like me. I didn’t know there was such a thing as dual outlets for ovens/hobs.
Thank you so much for this video. I was looking to get my dual fuel range cooker replaced with a fully electic one so I wanted to get my head round what was needed before getting an electrician to quote. I started looking at cookers online and they were quoting max powers of 15kw but only needing 32A breaker etc which just did not add up from my basic understanding so thank you very much for explaining.
I find it really helpful that a lot of manufacturers are giving the ratings now in kWh rather than kW, very helpful when designing a circuit...
Eloquently and clearly elucidated as always.
Excellent explanation, thank you. And I enjoy your wry sense of humour.
Top job well explained and nice and calm while showing each example. This has to be my go to site cheers
J W you are the star of the you tube electrical video. Need more from you.
Bugger!!,
That is very sage advice John, I've been un-necessarily installing 6mm² cable to free-standing ovens over here in New Zealand, on a 32A breaker.
Oddly enough, we have a 4 pin socket-outlet here, that I've never seen used anywhere else in the world, it may be possible it is used in Australia.
Thanks for the great video.
Great video as always John 👌
Great work JW!!
Exactly what I wanted to know. I'm a time served installation electrician with 40 years in the game and although I don't do much domestic I always thought a cooker switch was supplied with a minimum of 6mm. As John mentions this is a hangover from the old rewirable fuse ratings. Excellent explanation proving you're never too old to learn but I'd probably still run 6mm over any kind of distance just in case of containment or lagging etc or maybe they wanted some sort of unusually high rating oven. Saying that have you seen the price of 6mm T&E recently? LORD. It's very tempting to do in 4mm but it feels so wrong.
Exactly what I need to know. thank you. Excellent explanation!
I can now think of quite a few small domestic properties with 2 cooker circuits. Seems a pointless waste of copper. Thanks for clearing up the misconceptions.
Great Video! Please keep making videos like this they're amazing.
Excellent educator
Great video and information as usual!
Brilliant explanation thanks John!!
Hi John, excellent tutorial thanks!
I wired my cooker with 1.5mm2 cable. 4 tops and one oven with grill.
Well.. MCB was 3xB13A. Works perfectly.
Love the Hammond in the background..... 👍🙂
Very informarive video, no need to waste money on larger cables for 2 MCB's =).
Thanks,
Very clear to understand John..
🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟
Having just installed an induction hob to replace my gas hob and had to run a new cable for it, am quite happy I used 6mm sqr. Cable is run in trunking between brick wall as this was the only way to get power to it. Very happy it won't be heating the wall up. I do have cavity wall insulation though so needed to uprate the cable.
Great video with well explained detail. Helped me [DIY] plan my kitchen electrics ready for sparky. On the point of detail: six square millimetres is six times six which equals a surface area of thirty six millimetres. six millimetres squared is a surface area of six millimetres ;) (at least as I understand it?)
That's the wrong way around surely... 6mm squared is 36, (as in 6 squared = 36), 6 square mm is 6 square mm
Thank you for a very informative explanation.
Hi John
excellent explanation once again
Great vid,as usual!👏👏👏
I thought an advantage of having the old 6mm2 cable (back from when it used wire fuse) was that you could have a higher powered modern cooktop (like 11kW induction) without having to rewire. This is a theory I’m about to test so I’ll find out one way or the other (located in Australia). Thanks for an informative video. Cheers
Another excellent presentation
Love it John many a time i’ve been doubted when installing 4mm for cooker circuits when installation methods allow.
I’ve lost count have many times fellow youtubers are pulling in 10mm supplies for hob/oven combos, which is ridiculous.
Well, a 10mm2 cable won't hurt anything... Except your wallet and your finders, I guess.
10MM is a BEOTCH to deal with in any normal accessory box. I agree with the person elsewhere in this comments section that says it doesn't belong in a domestic environment except as a feed to a specific outbuilding or second fuseboard. In which case you're not going to be terminating into an accessory box.. The number of electric showers that have exposed primary insulation outside the box either in the wall or roofspace because there's no physical way of doing otherwise even with a 47mm box... is countless
10mm is overkill, unless they have multiple cookers
6mm is the correct size if the cables are partially covered in insulation. You got to derate the cables based on installation method.
Is there not a regulation concerning box fill? I know the US version has a section specially addressing box fill and minimum volumetric dimensions.
Thank you. You've answered everything.
Great video. Very interesting Thanks for sharing 👍
Really useful John, thanks.
Very informative, thanks john
Brilliant video. Much appreciated.
top video the whole of the uk needs to protect this man!!
Hi john great video, wonder if you found clarify something for me? I've had 3 different answers from 3 sparks! I'm running cable for my extension, do I have 3 x ovens @3.45kw 1, in a island 1 induction hob @ 11kw max. Could you clarify for me cable size. I don't want to use up 4 ways on the CU. Was told to run 6mm to a small 3 way CU in the kitchen for 3 ovens and just do the hob in 10mm for it's own circuit from the original CU. Does this sound best route? Any advice would be great.
Respect John👊🏾 thank you very much
Nice vid JW , one issue is 4mm can cost as much and sometimes more than 6mm given it’s unpopular size.
As usual, an excellent video John, Love the way you say 6mm is installed just because some electricians insist on doing things the way they’ve always been done. I find the same applies to bathroom lights, why do they automatically get installed with pull switches or with plate switches outside the room when you can often install a plate switch in the bathroom as long as its out of zone 1 or 2, also ring circuits get Installed just because they have always done it that way
Myhippocampus I tend to do rings for utility and kitchen, radial circuits for remainder of house. 👍🏻Just makes sense.
Rings for utility and kitchens are a must in my opinion. Fair power distribution across a circuit is an important factor to consider when designing.
@@jaydenplaysguitar3896 if only people would actually design rings with "fair power distribution across the circuit" trouble is it never happens, rings are always installed in the easiest, shortest route from socket one to the next rather than considering how much load might be on one leg, which is normally the dishwasher, washing machine, kettle, oven, microwave all next to each other on the same leg. SparkyNinja did a good video on balancing rings and loading a year back
Often we don’t know what the builders will do after our 1st fix. Some jobs the ceilings/floor joist voids are left empty and some get pack with insulation. We tend to use 6mm to cover ourselves on this basis
Here here. John is an example of relying on books rather than foresight.
I still remember his video on why it was pointless to replace rewireable fuses with the push-in resettable style.
Except for the fact that a lot of pensioners can't afford to get a new dB and a full EICR.
you should always future proof it aswell, we dont know what kind of powerfull cookers we might get in 10 20 years
thank you !!!!!!! exactly the info I needed, perfectly explained AAAAAAA+++++++
Great video
Great, very informative. Thank you.
Thanks for your sharing 👍
Amazing! Thanks for sharing this!
A 4mm cable with a 32A mcb at CU. A hob and oven to be connected.
A hob can be connected directly to the 4mm cable. Fine. As you said, a 3kW oven will never draw more than about 13A, unless in a fault situation. So, the oven can be plugged into a 15A fuseless round pin plug and socket which is off the 4mm cable, behind the oven. 15A round pin plugs are still legal on radials on directly on a final ring circuit (can be on a radial spur circuit off a final ring). Using a normal square pin 13A plug gives an inaccessible fuse. Fuses ideally should not be inaccessible.
Almost totally agree although how many times do we see a wee single oven melting the plugtop its hanging off personally alway bring fcu out the elephants nose...
Again great content JW,keep it up
16:30 Can you please help me? I have been searching in the 18the Ed and On-Site about the flexible cable but all I can find is the " 521.9 (Selection and Erection of Wiring Systems) Equipment that is intended to be moved in use shall be connected by flexible cables." And of cource in Definitions but that's a bit useless.
Should I use Table 4E2A 3 core 4mm2?
Thanks
I learned lots very useful appreciated
Hi John,
I'm a new apprentice/improver, and enjoying your videos, thanks for making them.
I asked the electrician's at my employer about 4mm cooker supplies. They were of an opposite opinion - that cooker supplies should even be on a 10mm!
This is on account of, as soon as the cable goes into a loft, god knows it'll be buried in insulation, going through walls, enclosed in oval conduit conduit in walls, or worse half the time - due to poor original installations.
Is it the case that for a 4mm cooker supply, the reference method has to be C, literally at every point of the cable run? Which is often unrealistic in many properties. If the cable goes down through oval conduit in a wall, does that mean straight away the cable loses its ability to lose heat and a 6mm immediately becomes necessary.
Cheers, grateful for your videos, they are very useful to keep pushing my learning.
Matt
John, would you consider any affect of grouping on the cable sizing.
Unfortunately that's what our electrician did, but he failed to note our split level oven has a cleaning mode that runs all the elements for 90 minutes, bringing the oven up to 470C; without fail, it trips the breaker midway through the cleaning cycle.
What is the total load of the oven?
To trip a 32A circuit breaker in 45 minutes would require well over 40 amps continuously, which would be a heating load in the region of 9-10kW, which seems grossly excessive for any oven.
6mm cable is acceptable for 40A MCB (clipped direct)
@@jwflame I dug through the manual and it states it should be fused at 16A and has a max consumption of 2900W. I'll have to get a clamp meter on the supply cable to see what it is drawing in cleaning mode.
@@cambridgemart2075 Something fishy there then - if rated 16A and tripping a 32A breaker ! Faulty appliance ?
Has he replaced a traditional oven with it? (they often used a 13A plug onto the ring mai...err ring final ;) ) Kitchen companies are AWFUL for that... sell a customer a self cleaning oven without telling them 'you're gonna need an electrician install a dedicated 16 or 20A circuit.
If it's on the same ring as the rest of the house (often in older properties without a dedicated kitchen ring) a constant 2.9Kw load might be competing with other appliances.
Methods in Australia - 4mm required, 32A RCBO mandated, isolation switch installed within 1.5M of device, maximum distance run of 20M, no de-rating. However, we've just done a run of houses with 3-phase domestic units. They are using a 4mm by three phases to get the induction ranges working properly.
That's brilliant, thanks a lot. I dont suppose you could do a video on testing a cooker installation once the cooker has been installed please?
Had no idea I’ve always used 6mm and some of the older houses have 10mm in which is terrible to worked with on alterations. So please I’m subbed
Yes I don't even think there are any fittings designed to take 10mm. It's terrible stuff to work with.
Thanks John..
It's also been ingrained in my head to use 1.5mm T&E lighting cable....1.0mm is fine with all the LED lamps now available.
Brilliant. I know the theory of electricity but am no electrician. Built in oven is kaput, wife would like the gas hob replaced as well. Does this mean ripping up the kitchen to provide all the extra power? This video answered all my questions. Nice wee bit of humour too.
Thanks for sharing 👍
I have the utmost respect for you and have watched many of your presentations. They are clear, concise and informative, far more so than most training courses I have attended. However on this one I (and some others by the reading below) would like a little further clarification :-
Agreed regarding mutating ovens/appliances. However if the wiring were rated at less than 32 A within the the appliance, would it be adequately protected by a 32A overcurrent protective device ?
If there were a short circuit within that wiring, would it be adequately protected by such a device ?
Non compliance in any respect from manufacturers requirements/specifications sounds rather foolish to me, potentially resulting in a tricky situation if there were a significant incident ?
Why expose oneself by non compliance with all relevant standards, however small.
I am not being critical, but would appreciate a greater understanding.
Thank you
I'd be interested too. Some manufacturers specify a 16A breaker. On a recent job I has two 3kW ovens that specified a 16A breaker. I ended up putting them on a 32A breaker, to a cooker isolator, to two 13A fused connection units to try to comply. Easier to whack them both in a cooker plate. If there was an accident like a fire that started on the cooker circuit, I wonder what the verdict would be.
Thanks just wiring one up.
Around here in the old MEB region we were taught 45A rewireable and 6mm. Most houses built before the 1990's in this area were done this way
45A rewirable fuse with 6mm² cable doesn't comply, and never did. It's the same problem as 4mm and 30A rewireable - not permitted due to the 0.725 correction factor for rewirable fuses.
45A with a cartridge fuse or circuit breaker could comply, depending on cable installation method.
@@jwflame probably 7/044 TRS as I'm talking the early 1950's
One case in the US I remember where the oven element DID transform to something that randomly demands more power... 240v oven element shorted to ground somewhere near the middle (which being a centre tapped 120-0-120 system didn't have much effect). No GFCI (rcd).. eventually water got in during cleaning, and began to saturate the mineral insulation... long story short, it still worked but the customer said it was sparking and kept getting brighter and brighter in the bottom of the oven. It''d burned down to about 1/3 of its length on one leg (the other was open circuit)... and was pulling about 30 amps on its own from 120 to ground. Quite scary as back then stoves used a 3 prong plug and grounded via the neutral, so any volt drop in the neutral was being reflected back onto the frame!
So are you saying there should be overcurrent protection on ovens, which John says there is no need for?
One of those infamous NEMA 10 connectors with the chassis connected to neutral. What could possibly go wrong? At least it's only 120V to ground...
@@johnburns4017 in the UK absolutely not. In the USA at the current time absolutely not. It was an anecdote vaguely related to the topic.
If your element goes that thermonuclear these days in either country something is going to trip before it gets to that point
@@TheEulerID indeed the very concept horrified me when I first made the move to the US
seem to be getting ovens now that even 2.5x3c flex is too big for (wont fit in the clamp) what would you do in this scenario? use 1.5 x3c flex with a fused spur behind the oven?
Method C means clipped directly, which is unlikely to be found in a modern kitchen. Hidden in a conduit inside the wall (method A) is far more usual. Which corresponds to 6 mm2 at 32A MCB.
Thank you
Method A is for an insulated wall. Method B is most common for wall cabling.