In your (part 1) grip/stance reference, the most prominent person in the late 80s/early 90s in refining the isosceles stance and thumbs forward grip was Jerry Barnhart. There are several interviews and books where he explains the thought process and benefits - few of them being what people think today. The isosceles stance provided a better anchor position to swing from target to target, especially to his left, as no actual foot movement was required.. The grip provided as much control as one could hope to have while barely gripping the handgun. What he meant by that, was doing as little movement and contact formation as possible from the holster to the target. {Hand to gun, draw, thumb on safety, weak hand slap, fire - - at a non-hostile target.}. People should understand he was talking about a few/100s/sec benefit - in a sport that is measured in 100s/sec. It was not a declaration of the best grip/stance to fire every weapon that can be fired unshouldered - It was also specific to the 1911 style (little to no recoil) 'race-guns' especially when using as large of a safety lever as possible (adhering to width limitations) to provide a thumb rest. The 'thumb rest' being beneficial in adding recoil control of the strong hand to compensate for the weakened grip of the weak hand.
Modified Isosceles all the way. When I signed on duty we trained Weaver with our revolvers. It was a relatively stable stance that emphasized “push pull” grip and your typical DT stance. When transitioned to the auto loaders we also went to the modified Isosceles stance. A more stable base and you then could concentrate on grip and front sight. It’s ironic that it went essentially full circle through the years from Bill Jordan et al until now. I’m locked in now after over 40 years of carrying on and off duty and into retirement.
When I first became a LEO in the 1980s, we were all taught to use the Weaver stance. Later the Isosceles stance became the "norm". This became even more important when we began wearing body armor in the early 1990s. By facing directly to the threat, the armor will be facing directly toward the threat. Today, a modified Isosceles stance is what I use now. I still use the push-pull isometric tension as part of my grip. And like you said, whatever stance you choose, train-train-train!
I appreciate @HRFunk highlighting my comment and those of you who liked it. I also realized afterwards that I have been in law enforcement for a LONG time and yes, I have had many "exciting and interesting" experiences; so yes, I am getting old! And if any of you "kids" are interested I have stories to tell! 1934 was another busy year for us: taking down Bonnie and Clyde and John Dillinger! 😘 - Just Sayin!!
It's always nice to get a well tested perspective on an often talked about subject. Your contribution to the subject contained more useful and informative content than most. Thanks.
Good video... We train enough, we figure out what works best individually. One technique isn't the end all, be all for everyone. Instructors should recognize this when developing shooters... the good ones probably do.
I like the Weaver stance with the push/pull grip. Stand isosceles and have someone push you. You will step back or fall over. Weaver you push me I push back, plus the first time I fired a shotgun I was Bruised on my right side. With weaver I rock back and forth with the shots no bruising. Could be another video idea for you!
Good morning HR. 2 videos for the price of one, great bargain! I favor the modified Weaver with thumbs forward. Old gunfighter trick. A weight, spare mag or speed loader, in the pocket of your vest or cover garment gives it momentum when sweeping it clear.
Excellent marksmanship, definitely not enough difference to make a difference. Thumb over grip for me and keeping it simple for all the handgun platforms that I shoot.
Weaver: Primary for Movement, stability, Thumb over thumb: Grip security, larger calibers say over 9mm. Isosceles secondary if caught mid step flat foot.
So ask yourself these questions when selecting your stance: 1) if I said "let's race" what would be your natural standing starting position? 2) Consider if a large dog was running at you and about to jump at you. What stance would you take? 3) Consider if you have to draw as someone is swinging a bat/pipe/object at you. What would your stance be? 4) What if someone is rushing you head on...what stance would you take? 5) What stance allows you to best defend your handgun from someone trying remove it from the holster while standing? 6) What is your stance when you shoot a long gun?
I love HR Funk. Crazy that my favorite RUclipsr is a police officer given my past. He represents (weirdly) my growth into who I am today. Thank you sir.
To my thinking, the time and accuracy of the first two shots are of primary importance (and maybe the only importance). And 1/3 second advantage in elapsed time of first hit is enough to be noteworthy. If my first shot hits you while you're just beginning your first shot trigger pull, I've greatly improved my chances to have disrupted\diminished your first-shot-on-target chances. And if my follow up shot is tight\quick AND accurate, and your first shot missed or hasn't fired yet, the gunfight has shifted dramatically in my favor (maybe even 100%). Shots 3, 4, and 5 might happen from momentum, but the outcome in most cases will likely have already been decided
Perhaps. There are so many variables that would weigh into any scenario like that that it's difficult to say with certainty when a time deficiency becomes critical.
@LTC Hi LTC, My musing is not against a backdrop that I'm up against some hardened committed Special Forces stud (God help me!). Rather, much more likely I'm up against a two bit thug and\or gang member; and from the vast majority of videos I see and stories I read, 90% of thugs and gang'rs turn and rabbit at the first hint of armed resistance - they're not inclined to lean into the danger. Bottom line, regardless of how the fight ultimately unfolds, I will always much prefer to have a 1/3 second\two hit advantage.
For me I have to be comfortable and get results. It's like what Bruce Lee said "Be water my friend". You have to be able to adapt to whatever firearm you are using or situation you are in.
Groo here ,, you forgot the Chapman [aka extra modified weaver] we always used this with hard kickers and at long/hunting ranges. Thumbs forward can be painful with heaver loads.
Great advice about focusing on what works best instead of what’s fashionable. I’ve been told that some Israeli units teach the crossed-thumbs grip because: 1. It creates a tight grip on the firearm with more of the force coming from the support hand, allowing better trigger control. 2. Interlocking the thumbs keeps a stronger grip on the pistol if an adversary tries to wrestle it away. Personally, I prefer it because it keeps my thumbs from interfering with the tip of my trigger finger when I’m shooting a smaller or double action pistol, where I’m engaging the trigger at the first joint of my index finger instead of the pad. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. Now there will be two of us using an antiquated grip!
Exactly as I expected HR! Great video! Results pretty much what I have experienced myself. What works best is what one should go with. Not really any right or wrong that I see. Thumbs forward with my FNX 40 causes me to have a stoppage by riding too high and inadvertently engaging the safety! Not good, so I change my grip when using the FNX! Think this has been one of your most informative videos! Keep up the great work! We need fed! 😉
I talked to a police firearms instructor from Arkansas back in May. I was out at the range working with his daughter and her friend who had been T/A's for me and the range trip was their reward. He was in SC for her graduation. In our discussion he told me that because of body armor he trained his uniformed officers to shoot isosceles, but trained his plainclothes guys to shoot Weaver.
@@hrfunk You know, I didn't think to ask him that. I'm sure it depends on how much training time and resources are allotted. LOL - he didn't warm up to me until he had watched for an hour of me going through my safety and fundamentals spiel with the girls. But, he must have liked what he saw, because he opened up to me after that.
I gave quite a bit of thought to this stance thing. The Weaver, vs whatever. My shooting buddies do what is, might be called a modified Weaver Stance. I have been asked how to stand for shooting, and I push them on the shoulder seeing if they easily fall backwards. If so they need to improve their stance. Jerry Charles Miculek Jr says stay square, and bring the gun up to your eye. I think something that works for you between al of the advice is what you need to do. Don't be blown over backwards by a soft breeze. lean in a little line up the sights, and hit the target where you are aiming.
I have always and still do shoot Weaver, with thumbs forward. My first semiautomatic pistol, was a 1911 so riding the safety made sliding the support thumb underneath it natural. This was in the early ‘80s so likely predates popularization of thumbs forward as a trained practice. I also found Weaver a more natural stance since I’d spent so much time shooting rifles and shotguns. I also find it easier to make well aimed controlled shots from retention while pressing out with the push/pull rather than isosceles.
IMO your conclusion that "what works best for you" is the right one. And, of course, practice will improve both speed and accuracy with any method used. Excellent instructional video.
Expert pistol medal in the Navy with a 1911, and have been using the thumb over thumb grip for over 50 years and saw no reason to change. Tried the thumbs forward grip and it was just not comfortable for me
I liked this. I totally agree that it's up to the shooter to choose what works for them. Trying to adopt a technique that is awkward to shave a half a second off the time doesn't make much sense. To each is own and that's not a bad thing as long as you can hit your target.
I think the weaver stance times were slower because you were always moving your feet into that stance. If you started bladed with your feet already in position, I think the times would be closer.
I agree absolutely with your final point... it's whatever works for YOU that you have to learn to work with. I learned a long time ago that, for me, that's a weird mishmash of techniques. I utilize the thumbs forward grip with pretty much ANY handgun... I have relatively small hands (I wear a size Medium glove), and I don't seem to have any adverse issues with pistol controls, or jamming up revolver cylinders. Back in the day, I always shot my semi-autos from a modified Weaver... but I just naturally fell into an Isosceles stance as soon as I transitioned to any revolver! Over the years, I trained myself into using Isosceles as my default, and find it to be faster from the holster. However, as soon as things take on a dynamic aspect (movement, clearing drills, etc.) I automatically default BACK to that modified Weaver! I just find it easier to MOVE and cover arising AOR's fluidly with it. Finally, back to the grip, I find the thumbs forward grip provides me with the best accuracy. Now, like you, I don't find much difference at close range. Yeah... I know the FBI says most defensive shootings happen inside seven yards. But the FBI can't figure out whose bag of blow they found in the White House! If that threat happens to present at 20 or even 50 yards (think active shooter scenario), I want every millimeter of accuracy I can find. thanks!!! LOL
Ugh! After seeing this, I realize I need to look at the modified isosceles stance from a fresh perspective. A very open-minded and well presented follow-up video to part one.
As noted in part 1 I have used what I call a position of interrogation left foot forward toward the potential threat strong side a bit back allowing movement and stability. If the potential threat moves I rotate but use the same stance pointing my left foot (am right handed) toward that potential threat. This permits me a natural point of aim at typical interrogation distances out to 7 yards. I can draw and be on target without aiming once you find that natural point of aim. Practice on targets done properly its very effective. I have tried the thumb forward not natural for me. I tend to grab with my left fingers the front of the trigger guard. Even with full power 10MM ammo in a 1911 there is little perceived muzzle rise. This works for me and the difference in stance and grip for experienced shooters I think is a matter of personal preference and what works best for the person. New shooters should try all of these and pick a system which allows to to be most accurate and comfortable Excellent presentation and great shooting chief.
Excellent presentation. I feel somewhat vindicated in my stubborn use of the thumb over thumb grip. For me it works best for revolvers and DA/SA semi-autos. I think the thumbs forward grip may have originated from 1911s used in competition sweeping the shooting thumb on the safety and the support thumb near the slide release. For me thumb over thumb is much better for recoil management. Both thumbs are exerting forward and downward pressure to fight recoil. However for slimmer grip pistols I adopt a "hybrid" grip support thumb over dominant thumb but extended out on the frame because it would otherwise impeed my trigger finger. Masad Ayoob did a good comparison video as well.
Hi Hrfunk, I see your point in favor of the thumb over thumb grip for a different reason: with small pocket guns, the thumb forward grip just doesn't work. You either push the web of the strong hand away from the backstrap, or your left thumb gets in the way of the trigger finger, or gets in the way of the slide, in the close proximity of a snub's cylinder gap or frictions the slide. The instructors that teach the thumbs forward grip don't use pocket pistols and revolvers, or change grip when they do. The thumbs forward grip lives in a glock - 1911 world, where revolvers are obsolete and pocket pistols are considered too small.
@@hrfunk Nah. Flip it around. My thanks. I asked the Wifey how she holds a revolver. Like me she had to think about it and agreed that we need to actually shoot the thing to be certain. We learned whatever cops used when revolvers were the norm.
Whenever I'm firing a pistol outside, I have my legs spread apart with a thumb over thumb grip. This isn't practical for a serious combat situation but it's comfortable for me on the range. Indoors I'm using the same grip with more of a Weaver stance.
Thanks for your time and effort with the production. The odds of being able to choose your firing stance in a self defense encounter are 50/50 at best, and might actually be much worse statistically, so I just do my best to have a good center of balance before pulling the trigger. Every time I hear "weaver stance", my mind automatically jumps to the scene from "meet the fockers" when De Niro gets tased by the young cop. Those are great movies.
The thing with stances, be they shooting or fighting, is they form the basis for training and skills development. You are correct in the belief that a defensive encounter might not permit one to assume a classic stance, but training with a proper stance allows the defensive shooter to reflexively assume the most stable platform the circumstances allow.
Fantastic presentation. Once again you've found an interesting aspect of our world and placed it under your magnifying glass for analysis. I know personally that I have switched from style to style just to see what works best for me, but I never drilled down to figure it out like this. Your handling of the .357 with full loads was very impressive!
I’m a younger guy, however, I learned to shoot a handgun with a model 10 .38 special. Probably not in keeping with my generation, I refuse to use two separate grips to shoot different guns, so, I use the thumb over thumb grip for everything. In fact, I’m very resistant to the thumbs forward grip for several reasons. Number one being, I just think it looks sloppy and lazy. To each his own I guess, but I will always shoot thumb over thumb.
HR, A long time ago, when I learned how to shoot pistols with two hands, I started using the thumb over thumb grip. I've had innumerable people tell me that this isn't the most effective grip and I should use the thumb forward grip. I tried that a few times, and it always felt awkward and not very stable. A few weeks ago, I was watching a video by Bill Wilson and Massad Ayoob on different types of grip, and they said that the thumb over thumb is the most stable grip you can use. Which is what I've always suspected. I also tend to use the Weaver stance, but that isn't cast in stone. It's mostly whatever works best for you is the best way to do things. By the way, I have qualified expert in three different Armed Forces (Navy, Army, and Air Force) with the 1911A1, .38 Special revolver, Beretta M9, M16, M16A1, and M16A2. Good video, though. You always do a good job with your videos. Cheers, Zeke
Thanks Zeke. I think the most important thing is for shooters to adopt a method that works well for them. It sounds like you have done that! Thanks for watching!
Great video as usual. I started competing in USPSA matches recently and have switched from a weaver or modified weaver with a revolver grip to a thumbs forward grip. That is on a Sig P320 Legion. It is comfortable and I like the contract with the grip which is fuller as you said. I'll see what happens in the next part and change up at practice to see which suits my shooting style better. Thanks again. As an afterthought I will say that if I'm shooting strong or weak hand only weaver is definitely the way to go. I like to practice with all three grips. Cheers.
Excellent video as a whole. 29:00 to the end is the best message any shooter, whether for self-defense or shooting sports, should really focus on. I have to get one of those timers :)
Great work Amigo. What I would enjoy seeing is a similar test comparing the consistency from two hand (say MI) and single hand using thumb forward, thumb over thumb, and tea cup. It would be interesting to see changes in point of impact with each.
I just feel more confident in a Weaver stance; it's pretty much the position I used to take when I knew a fight was going to be on me at any moment. It seems to translate well into defensive handgun for me, as well, but never having been LE (despite being scheduled into the first CPD academy class in '85 ... long story ...), I don't have to worry about body armor gaps. Still planning on trying thumb-over-thumb with my 1911's. I have to agree you've got a point on not having to worry about switching grips when you switch handguns, and I winter carry a 586 L-Comp fairly often. I do wonder, though, if remembering to hit the safety first might present a problem; I guess I'll find out. :)
A very well made double video on a topic most interesting. Surely a keeper in my favorites list. Thank you, Howard, for sharing your expert analysis. Personally my grip varies according to the gun I am using, but I recognize several things of which I made a mix, over the years, exactly to feel comfortable and find the best balance.
Thanks for doing this presentation, I've done pretty much the same thing using my EDC CZ75B found the weaver thumbs forward was the most natural for myself my wife daughter and son-in-law all found the isosceles thumbs forward better with their EDC but thanks again for doing this i enjoy your site!
Nice shooting! Like you said - we each should use whatever stance and or grip that works best for us. Personally I use a mod. Isosceles and that is the quickest and most comfortable for me - for 50 years of shooting. Response from yesterday (vest comment). I too have NEVER beat to anyone else's drum and have usually not dressed in "vogue" either. In fact I dress similar to you. That said, at least where I lived most of my life, a fishing or photographers vest just screamed "gun". Maybe where you live things are very different. I realize you were a public figure and probably well known in your town but for many who live in a more populated and larger city, no one wears them and they stick out like a sore thumb. So bottom line is yes, I'm sure everyone who knows you and knows what you did for a living realizes whats under the vest and won't care. I did not enjoy that luxury and had to always make sure concealed and secretive was priority one. Where I live now (moved to a very gun friendly place) no one gets bent out of shape by a firearm.
@@hrfunk Sure - NY Lived there all my life, born and raised in NYC then out to Long Island (suburb not part of NYC) at 17. We lived there until last year when we knew that we just didn't belong there any longer. I actually came to that conclusion 10 years ago - but it took that long to get my wife to see the light of day - finally she agreed!! ! Now we live in a very gun friendly place where a firearms store or gun range are looked at as normal everyday businesses. No permits required except for concealing - and our Governor did say he would sign a Constitutional carry law if it comes to his desk. So now you might understand where I am coming from. NY will confiscate a CCW license if you are caught "brandishing" and believe me after having a NYS CCW for all my adult life it was not easy to get or keep!
"Be sure to watch the video, and see if you still have this question after it’s done." And I do! What is ones empty handed fighting technique? My original idea stands. If one is "Golden Gloves" At the local Boxing club/ gym then the modified Isosceles is the way to go. If one does Karate or other Eastern Martial Arts where the "Neutral Bow stance" Is the fighting position, then one can transition from hand to hand to shooting from the Weaver as seamlessly as performing blocks, strikes, and kicks. It is highly likely that an altercation might begin hand to hand and escalate to where deadly force is required so being able to seamlessly transition from empty handed combat to pistolcraft could be viewed as important. I am a student of Kenpo and Neutral Bow to Weaver is as seamless as initiating any other Kenpo technique from that stance. One could use the "Forward Bow stance" Which for all intensive purposes, would be an exaggerated Modified Isosceles.
Thank you. I too have been a lifelong martial artist. As I think you’ll agree, different techniques work better (or not as well) for different people. Obviously, everyone needs to adopt the technique(s) that work best for them. The distinction in the video (and the reason I wanted you to watch it before I addressed your question) is that I don’t use a true isosceles stance. I agree with you in that the true version of that stance lacks stability and by extension, mobility. In the modified version that I employ, the strong side foot is dropped back (adding front to rear stability) and the shooter’s knees are bent to lower their center of gravity which allows quicker movement in any direction. In any case, the most important thing is for your stance to work for you. If the Weaver works better, by all means you should use it.
My thoughts as a very new pistol shooter, self taught with a few hundred hours of youtube video instruction and the ability to try out different styles with no previous muscle memory working for or against any of the grip styles or stances: 1) Stance - modified isosceles works best for me as a left-eye dominant shooter as it allows me to turn my head the least when lining up with the sights when shooting two-handed. Weaver (or something close to it) works better when I practice single handed. 2) Grip - Thumb-over-thumb works best for me. I have pretty big hands and on my primary range pistol (IWI Masada) thumbs forward feels a lot less secure to me since I actually don't get much contact on the grip with my left hand as there's very little real estate left there once I wrap my RH fingers around the grip. I experienced the same with a VP9, a PPQ, a VP9SK, a BB Tech BB6 and a M&P 40SW. My two cents, for whatever that's worth...
If I might, your particular thumbs-forward grip is somewhat different than is most commonly taught. The bulk of your hand, that is, basically everything except for your thumb, is at the level of the bottom of the trigger guard and lower. I think if you were to rotate your wrist, moving the heel of your hand higher on the grip and pressing your thumb farther forward along the frame, you might actually see a noticeable difference in your shooting. Getting "meat" higher on the pistol aids in recoil control. I too shot for many years with the thumb-over-thumb grip and transitioning to the thumbs-forward was very strange for me. I played around with slight variations quite a bit, finally settling on a grip that has almost 1/3 of the palm of my off hand above the line of the bottom of the trigger guard. I've also found great value in checkering or stippling on the bottom of the trigger guard, to provide enhanced traction for my off hand index finger. Excellent vid as always! Semper Fi!
Semper Fi! I’m familiar with that variation of the thumbs forward grip, but it feels very unnatural to me. I also suspect it will exacerbate some of the functioning issues I mentioned in the video. It also will probably be even less useful for wheelguns.
Stance is a preferance and I like both, depending how I am dressed. I live in a state that has concealed carry and I use it every day but it gets real hot here in the south so nit is not easy too cover a weapon with a jacket or vest in hot weather. It really forces mr to carry a pocket pistol in the hot times and that is a real bummer when you are driving a vehicle or just sitting down. I would love too see your take on concealed carry in these situations. Great Videos.
Thanks, Stewart. It's going to be a while before we have warm weather in my area again. Maybe when that rolls around I can come up with a video along those lines. Thanks for watching!
Just requalified for my Retired LEO CCW Permit yesterday. Isosceles & thumbs forward on my Sig P365 XL. That is the technique that I've used since transitioning from revolvers to semi autos in the early 90's. Will give your best positioning a try at my next range session and will keep you posted. Thanks again.
Great content. Thanks for sharing your expertise. For me, this was definitely valuable training techniques. Since I don't have years of muscle memory in grip and stance behind a pistol, I think it will be easier to hone in on what works best for me.
I utilize both stances, although modified versions of each. I usually shoot using the Isosceles stance, unless I'm taking a longer, slow, precise shot, then I use the Weaver stance. I guess I'm not Tacticool, because I just can't do the thumbs forward thing. I've tried teaching myself to, but when I just draw and fire, I'm ALWAYS thumb over thumb...it's just how I was taught, and have shot for nearly 5 decades.
Good stuff. I generally use the "old style" grip. It works for me, and I like the versatility of it, as you mention. I don't get too locked into one style of stance though. Again, whatever works. Thanks!
I've not used the thumb forward technique because I cannot envision how it supports the firearm any better than the other techniques. Indeed, it appears to weaken the grip. I suppose if a thumb rest was embedded in the frame, it might provide some positive purchase, but I know of no firearm that has such a feature. From your demonstration it appears the differences in performance between the three styles is minuscule. I agree the shooter should use the one that works best for the individual and the chosen handgun. One size/style does not fit all.
As always a superb video. Mr. Funk would you give consideration to do an instructional video on shooting with both eyes open vs one eyed sighting shooting. I have been trying to change from one eye to both eyes open mostly due to my age (76).
An enjoyable and informative presentation as always, Mr. Funk! Might I offer up an experiment years ago, that I found interesting? Similar drills, similar stances, but with your hands thoroughly basted with ketchup on a windy, crappy day. In my experimentation I found that I was able to control the gun marginally better out of the Weaver stance, thumbs forward. I also found that ketchup etches blueing, and ruins rosewood grips. :) Your results may vary, I just found it interesting, crappy days and burgers can strike without warning!
H, I'd like to see a video where you're training\shooting while subtly sliding your torso one direction or the other (like Tom Brady slipping a defender in the pocket). if we're 5 - 7 yds apart, shooting at the same time, haven't I created a slight advantage if I'm moving and now 8-12" to the right (and in motion) of where I was when your gun was coming up to fire?
Thumb over thumb is a variation the Israël Defense uses. I believe the theory is in true close combat its much more difficult to have your pistol taken from your hands as you have a very strong hand natural grip. I find the first shot more accurate than thumbs forward actually but multiple follow up shots are less accurate than thumbs forward.
When I was taught that grip nearly 4 decades ago, I don’t remember anyone mentioning it’s benefit In terms of weapon retention. That said, a few others have mentioned that in the comments to this video. I wonder if it’s a more recent concept?
All shots are effective may I ask; was anticipating the action in in any case ? Meaning the shooter can prepare any better as when you suggested the isosceles was a more natural position?
Great video H R. I cannot get used to the thumb forward grip as my thumbs naturally like the thumb over thumb grip. Something I noticed and I might be wrong here but when you were faced off on the target for each course it seemed you were square to the target and when shooting the weaver stance, you had to shift your feet which might account for the longer times. I started shooting with the weaver stance but after wearing body armor and figuring out like you pointed out in the last video the side panels had little to no protection I switched to the Isosceles stance. Another factor in shooting stance is what are you doing at the time of the draw, field interview you might be blade and go to the weaver, squared off on someone you might already be in the isosceles. Practice, practice, practice. Also, I am looking for a shot timer, any suggestions as to a couple of good ones?
Thanks Tom! In the very first draw with the 1911, I accidentally started with my feet already in position. I did that out of habit, and when I realized what I had done I made sure to start with my feet parallel after that. That way for both the isosceles and the weaver stance I had to move my feet into position. Regarding the timer, I use one manufactured by "Competition Electronics." I've had it for years, and it has worked well. The current version from that company has a few more bells and whistles. Take care!
Although not tested or mentioned in this video, the thumbs down or what I call the revolver grip is superior should a struggle for the weapon happen. With thumbs up, the shooter loses some ability to retain their pistol or revolver. I've been shooting modified Isosceles for years now with the traditional thumbs down grip.
I wonder if the dispersion on the traditional grip with the 1911 was a function of caliber and not the grip per se. It would be interesting to see what the dispersion would look like in a 1911 chambered in 9mm using the traditional grip.
@@hrfunk I was thinking more on lines that it is something about the 1911 platform that gives an advantage to the thumbs forward grip. My understanding it that thumbs forward was developed by competitive shooters at a time when the 1911 dominant platform. I also wonder if competitive shooting has driven technique because fractions of seconds and inch make a difference in competition but don't in the practical world. As Paul Harrell "is there enough difference to make a difference, you decide.".
I am going to use analogy to support the idea that you do what works for you. Those of you who know golf know that Jim Furyk has terrible yet he gets the club face square to the ball. It is the same way shooting. If you are fast and accurate using what ever stance grip wo
When shooting revolvers I place my thumb on the recoil shield. It may get a little warm but it's only 5 or 6 rounds. That tends to help with recoil. Also, nice haircut, you were starting to look like you were in the air force. Just kidding.
Looking back on the video you did not appear to be using an actual weaver stance. Your arms looked the like an isosceles stance during all the shooting. Your left arm was never bent.
I think some of that might have been due to camera angle. Also, I do not bend my support arm nearly as much as some others do when assuming the Weaver stance. If you look at photos of Randy Weaver, you’ll see his arms are bent very nearly the same as mine.
@@hrfunk Sometimes it's understandable. I was a member of a club with an indoor range that only allowed 22 rimfire. Someone had let a new shooter cut loose rapid fire with a 44 and they took out a light on the ceiling.
I prefer to shoot my 1911’s with my strong hand thumb on top of the safety. I’ve heard many times that shooting with that thumb below the safety runs the risk of flipping the safety on during recoil.
Don't ride the safety. Ýou run the risk of the thumb contacting and impending the slide travel. A proper thumb over thumb grip won't increase the chances of inadvertently deploying the safety. The combination of a modified Weaver stance and thumb over thumb grip has worked very well for me 45+years. Yeah,I'm a fudd.However my fuddery is limited to explosive ordnance being infringed.😉
Great video, good shooting and I think your final conclusions were spot on. Familiarity with your pistol and practice will make much more difference to your shooting that choosing one stance over another. That said, I think your video proved a couple of other points too. You shoot better from an isosceles stance than a weaver because it is very familiar to you. And the body will fall more naturally into an isosceles stance than a weaver stance as evidenced by the footage of you shooting 5 shots from your 1911 (and the Steyr) from the weaver stance when (and I can’t believe I’m saying this to a Marine and professional LEO) your stance was more isosceles than weaver. Sorry - ex pistol trainer. 😊 I suspect you had the dynamic push/pull tension from the weaver but both arms looked at full extension rather than the the weak arm being bent underneath and exerting more downward and rearward pull on the pistol to manage the recoil. But that doesn’t alter the main conclusion - find what’s comfortable to you and then practice, practice, practice… Good presentation and discussion. Thank you.
Proper Weaver has never been taught with taking a step back during the firing stroke as demo'd in the video, or drawing and firing with one foot already to the rear. AS taught by American Pistol Institute/Gunsite weaver was/ has been taught with the torso and hips squared up with the target, just like in isosceles with the exception of maybe the support side foot an inch or two ahead of the firing side foot. This "blading" fallacy has been around for some time and especially espoused on the innanet. If you are going to make an honest comparison between techniques at least do proper research to show the difference, not some watered down interpretation of what is.
If you look at photographs of Randy Weaver, it appears that he had his body partially bladed. In fact the photos look very similar to the stance I was demonstrating in this video. That said, there have been many variations of these dances over the years.
Great content as usual Howard. I love snub nose revolvers, I have them in 22lr, 38 special, 9mm, and 357. I would love to see a video on snub nose accuracy (how to aim, where to hold, etc.) . Thanks for all your great videos, I'm in my seventies and have only been shooting for the last 2 years. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
"Does it make enough difference to make a difference? You be the judge."
I think I’ve heard that somewhere before.
In your (part 1) grip/stance reference, the most prominent person in the late 80s/early 90s in refining the isosceles stance and thumbs forward grip was Jerry Barnhart.
There are several interviews and books where he explains the thought process and benefits - few of them being what people think today. The isosceles stance provided a better anchor position to swing from target to target, especially to his left, as no actual foot movement was required.. The grip provided as much control as one could hope to have while barely gripping the handgun. What he meant by that, was doing as little movement and contact formation as possible from the holster to the target. {Hand to gun, draw, thumb on safety, weak hand slap, fire - - at a non-hostile target.}. People should understand he was talking about a few/100s/sec benefit - in a sport that is measured in 100s/sec. It was not a declaration of the best grip/stance to fire every weapon that can be fired unshouldered - It was also specific to the 1911 style (little to no recoil) 'race-guns' especially when using as large of a safety lever as possible (adhering to width limitations) to provide a thumb rest. The 'thumb rest' being beneficial in adding recoil control of the strong hand to compensate for the weakened grip of the weak hand.
Modified Isosceles all the way. When I signed on duty we trained Weaver with our revolvers. It was a relatively stable stance that emphasized “push pull” grip and your typical DT stance. When transitioned to the auto loaders we also went to the modified Isosceles stance. A more stable base and you then could concentrate on grip and front sight. It’s ironic that it went essentially full circle through the years from Bill Jordan et al until now. I’m locked in now after over 40 years of carrying on and off duty and into retirement.
When I first became a LEO in the 1980s, we were all taught to use the Weaver stance. Later the Isosceles stance became the "norm".
This became even more important when we began wearing body armor in the early 1990s. By facing directly to the threat, the armor will be facing directly toward the threat.
Today, a modified Isosceles stance is what I use now. I still use the push-pull isometric tension as part of my grip.
And like you said, whatever stance you choose, train-train-train!
I appreciate @HRFunk highlighting my comment and those of you who liked it.
I also realized afterwards that I have been in law enforcement for a LONG time and yes, I have had many "exciting and interesting" experiences; so yes, I am getting old!
And if any of you "kids" are interested I have stories to tell!
1934 was another busy year for us: taking down Bonnie and Clyde and John Dillinger! 😘
- Just Sayin!!
I notice I tend to naturally stand in a weaver style stance. It's probably why weaver stance is more natural to me.
It's always nice to get a well tested perspective on an often talked about subject. Your contribution to the subject contained more useful and informative content than most. Thanks.
Good video... We train enough, we figure out what works best individually. One technique isn't the end all, be all for everyone. Instructors should recognize this when developing shooters... the good ones probably do.
I like the Weaver stance with the push/pull grip. Stand isosceles and have someone push you. You will step back or fall over. Weaver you push me I push back, plus the first time I fired a shotgun I was Bruised on my right side. With weaver I rock back and forth with the shots no bruising. Could be another video idea for you!
Thanks Kerry. Just FYI, part of the reason the strong foot is dropped back in the modified isosceles is to make it more stable.
Good morning HR. 2 videos for the price of one, great bargain! I favor the modified Weaver with thumbs forward. Old gunfighter trick. A weight, spare mag or speed loader, in the pocket of your vest or cover garment gives it momentum when sweeping it clear.
I am familiar with that trick. Still, I did not want to introduce a cover garment as a variable in this particular test. Thanks for watching!
Excellent marksmanship, definitely not enough difference to make a difference.
Thumb over grip for me and keeping it simple for all the handgun platforms that I shoot.
Weaver: Primary for Movement, stability, Thumb over thumb: Grip security, larger calibers say over 9mm. Isosceles secondary if caught mid step flat foot.
So ask yourself these questions when selecting your stance:
1) if I said "let's race" what would be your natural standing starting position?
2) Consider if a large dog was running at you and about to jump at you. What stance would you take?
3) Consider if you have to draw as someone is swinging a bat/pipe/object at you. What would your stance be?
4) What if someone is rushing you head on...what stance would you take?
5) What stance allows you to best defend your handgun from someone trying remove it from the holster while standing?
6) What is your stance when you shoot a long gun?
For me, all of these would be about the same as the modified isosolese I demonstrated in the video.
I love HR Funk. Crazy that my favorite RUclipsr is a police officer given my past. He represents (weirdly) my growth into who I am today. Thank you sir.
I am honored to have you as if you were Eric. Thanks for watching!
To my thinking, the time and accuracy of the first two shots are of primary importance (and maybe the only importance). And 1/3 second advantage in elapsed time of first hit is enough to be noteworthy. If my first shot hits you while you're just beginning your first shot trigger pull, I've greatly improved my chances to have disrupted\diminished your first-shot-on-target chances. And if my follow up shot is tight\quick AND accurate, and your first shot missed or hasn't fired yet, the gunfight has shifted dramatically in my favor (maybe even 100%). Shots 3, 4, and 5 might happen from momentum, but the outcome in most cases will likely have already been decided
Perhaps. There are so many variables that would weigh into any scenario like that that it's difficult to say with certainty when a time deficiency becomes critical.
@LTC Hi LTC,
My musing is not against a backdrop that I'm up against some hardened committed Special Forces stud (God help me!). Rather, much more likely I'm up against a two bit thug and\or gang member; and from the vast majority of videos I see and stories I read, 90% of thugs and gang'rs turn and rabbit at the first hint of armed resistance - they're not inclined to lean into the danger. Bottom line, regardless of how the fight ultimately unfolds, I will always much prefer to have a 1/3 second\two hit advantage.
For me I have to be comfortable and get results. It's like what Bruce Lee said "Be water my friend". You have to be able to adapt to whatever firearm you are using or situation you are in.
I keep referring back to this as I continue to experiment with my grip. An excellent presentation.
Good information. I prefer the Chapman modification of the Weaver stance.
Groo here ,, you forgot the Chapman [aka extra modified weaver] we always used this with hard kickers and at long/hunting ranges.
Thumbs forward can be painful with heaver loads.
Great advice about focusing on what works best instead of what’s fashionable. I’ve been told that some Israeli units teach the crossed-thumbs grip because:
1. It creates a tight grip on the firearm with more of the force coming from the support hand, allowing better trigger control.
2. Interlocking the thumbs keeps a stronger grip on the pistol if an adversary tries to wrestle it away.
Personally, I prefer it because it keeps my thumbs from interfering with the tip of my trigger finger when I’m shooting a smaller or double action pistol, where I’m engaging the trigger at the first joint of my index finger instead of the pad. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. Now there will be two of us using an antiquated grip!
Exactly as I expected HR! Great video! Results pretty much what I have experienced myself. What works best is what one should go with. Not really any right or wrong that I see. Thumbs forward with my FNX 40 causes me to have a stoppage by riding too high and inadvertently engaging the safety! Not good, so I change my grip when using the FNX! Think this has been one of your most informative videos! Keep up the great work! We need fed! 😉
Thanks Dan!
I talked to a police firearms instructor from Arkansas back in May. I was out at the range working with his daughter and her friend who had been T/A's for me and the range trip was their reward. He was in SC for her graduation. In our discussion he told me that because of body armor he trained his uniformed officers to shoot isosceles, but trained his plainclothes guys to shoot Weaver.
I wonder how much retraining that necessitates when an officer changes from one assignment to the other?
@@hrfunk You know, I didn't think to ask him that. I'm sure it depends on how much training time and resources are allotted. LOL - he didn't warm up to me until he had watched for an hour of me going through my safety and fundamentals spiel with the girls. But, he must have liked what he saw, because he opened up to me after that.
@@LionquestFitness I’m not surprised. You have a great deal of knowledge and a natural teaching style.
I gave quite a bit of thought to this stance thing. The Weaver, vs whatever. My shooting buddies do what is, might be called a modified Weaver Stance. I have been asked how to stand for shooting, and I push them on the shoulder seeing if they easily fall backwards. If so they need to improve their stance. Jerry Charles Miculek Jr says stay square, and bring the gun up to your eye. I think something that works for you between al of the advice is what you need to do. Don't be blown over backwards by a soft breeze. lean in a little line up the sights, and hit the target where you are aiming.
I have always and still do shoot Weaver, with thumbs forward. My first semiautomatic pistol, was a 1911 so riding the safety made sliding the support thumb underneath it natural. This was in the early ‘80s so likely predates popularization of thumbs forward as a trained practice. I also found Weaver a more natural stance since I’d spent so much time shooting rifles and shotguns. I also find it easier to make well aimed controlled shots from retention while pressing out with the push/pull rather than isosceles.
IMO your conclusion that "what works best for you" is the right one. And, of course, practice will improve both speed and accuracy with any method used. Excellent instructional video.
Thank you!
Amen! Good instructors know that different approaches work better for different people.
Expert pistol medal in the Navy with a 1911, and have been using the thumb over thumb grip for over 50 years and saw no reason to change. Tried the thumbs forward grip and it was just not comfortable for me
That's just excellent shooting. I agree, experiment and see which works for YOU.
I liked this. I totally agree that it's up to the shooter to choose what works for them. Trying to adopt a technique that is awkward to shave a half a second off the time doesn't make much sense. To each is own and that's not a bad thing as long as you can hit your target.
I think the weaver stance times were slower because you were always moving your feet into that stance. If you started bladed with your feet already in position, I think the times would be closer.
I agree, but I wanted to begin in a “neutral position” that didn’t give an advantage to either stance.
I agree absolutely with your final point... it's whatever works for YOU that you have to learn to work with. I learned a long time ago that, for me, that's a weird mishmash of techniques. I utilize the thumbs forward grip with pretty much ANY handgun... I have relatively small hands (I wear a size Medium glove), and I don't seem to have any adverse issues with pistol controls, or jamming up revolver cylinders.
Back in the day, I always shot my semi-autos from a modified Weaver... but I just naturally fell into an Isosceles stance as soon as I transitioned to any revolver! Over the years, I trained myself into using Isosceles as my default, and find it to be faster from the holster. However, as soon as things take on a dynamic aspect (movement, clearing drills, etc.) I automatically default BACK to that modified Weaver! I just find it easier to MOVE and cover arising AOR's fluidly with it.
Finally, back to the grip, I find the thumbs forward grip provides me with the best accuracy. Now, like you, I don't find much difference at close range. Yeah... I know the FBI says most defensive shootings happen inside seven yards. But the FBI can't figure out whose bag of blow they found in the White House! If that threat happens to present at 20 or even 50 yards (think active shooter scenario), I want every millimeter of accuracy I can find. thanks!!! LOL
Thanks for a great comment Dale. That quip about the FBI made me chuckle.
Ugh! After seeing this, I realize I need to look at the modified isosceles stance from a fresh perspective. A very open-minded and well presented follow-up video to part one.
Thanks Luther!
As noted in part 1 I have used what I call a position of interrogation left foot forward toward the potential threat strong side a bit back allowing movement and stability. If the potential threat moves I rotate but use the same stance pointing my left foot (am right handed) toward that potential threat. This permits me a natural point of aim at typical interrogation distances out to 7 yards. I can draw and be on target without aiming once you find that natural point of aim. Practice on targets done properly its very effective. I have tried the thumb forward not natural for me. I tend to grab with my left fingers the front of the trigger guard. Even with full power 10MM ammo in a 1911 there is little perceived muzzle rise. This works for me and the difference in stance and grip for experienced shooters I think is a matter of personal preference and what works best for the person. New shooters should try all of these and pick a system which allows to to be most accurate and comfortable
Excellent presentation and great shooting chief.
Thanks Sergerant Major!
Excellent presentation. I feel somewhat vindicated in my stubborn use of the thumb over thumb grip. For me it works best for revolvers and DA/SA semi-autos. I think the thumbs forward grip may have originated from 1911s used in competition sweeping the shooting thumb on the safety and the support thumb near the slide release. For me thumb over thumb is much better for recoil management. Both thumbs are exerting forward and downward pressure to fight recoil. However for slimmer grip pistols I adopt a "hybrid" grip support thumb over dominant thumb but extended out on the frame because it would otherwise impeed my trigger finger. Masad Ayoob did a good comparison video as well.
There goes Mas Copying me again😉
Excellent Video, Great Shooting, and very sage advice!
Thank you!
Hi Hrfunk, I see your point in favor of the thumb over thumb grip for a different reason: with small pocket guns, the thumb forward grip just doesn't work. You either push the web of the strong hand away from the backstrap, or your left thumb gets in the way of the trigger finger, or gets in the way of the slide, in the close proximity of a snub's cylinder gap or frictions the slide. The instructors that teach the thumbs forward grip don't use pocket pistols and revolvers, or change grip when they do. The thumbs forward grip lives in a glock - 1911 world, where revolvers are obsolete and pocket pistols are considered too small.
Thanks Carlo, I think you are right.
Posting to help the Algore rhythm. And to say this is a great video. I hope that many people see it.
Thank you!
@@hrfunk Nah. Flip it around. My thanks. I asked the Wifey how she holds a revolver. Like me she had to think about it and agreed that we need to actually shoot the thing to be certain. We learned whatever cops used when revolvers were the norm.
Whenever I'm firing a pistol outside, I have my legs spread apart with a thumb over thumb grip. This isn't practical for a serious combat situation but it's comfortable for me on the range. Indoors I'm using the same grip with more of a Weaver stance.
Thanks for your time and effort with the production.
The odds of being able to choose your firing stance in a self defense encounter are 50/50 at best, and might actually be much worse statistically, so I just do my best to have a good center of balance before pulling the trigger.
Every time I hear "weaver stance", my mind automatically jumps to the scene from "meet the fockers" when De Niro gets tased by the young cop.
Those are great movies.
The thing with stances, be they shooting or fighting, is they form the basis for training and skills development. You are correct in the belief that a defensive encounter might not permit one to assume a classic stance, but training with a proper stance allows the defensive shooter to reflexively assume the most stable platform the circumstances allow.
@@hrfunk
Understood. Thanks for the reply, Sir.
Fantastic presentation. Once again you've found an interesting aspect of our world and placed it under your magnifying glass for analysis. I know personally that I have switched from style to style just to see what works best for me, but I never drilled down to figure it out like this. Your handling of the .357 with full loads was very impressive!
Thank you Stan!
Glad the carry comp is working out better; would love a part two of it! I want one and was super disheartened at the first impressions!
I’ve made several videos since the Carry Comp returned from repair. I’m not sure if you’ve already seen them.
@@hrfunk I shoulda looked first! I'm just awake too early amd backlogging lol
I have always shot modified Weaver, even before I knew what they were.
I’m a younger guy, however, I learned to shoot a handgun with a model 10 .38 special. Probably not in keeping with my generation, I refuse to use two separate grips to shoot different guns, so, I use the thumb over thumb grip for everything. In fact, I’m very resistant to the thumbs forward grip for several reasons. Number one being, I just think it looks sloppy and lazy. To each his own I guess, but I will always shoot thumb over thumb.
HR,
A long time ago, when I learned how to shoot pistols with two hands, I started using the thumb over thumb grip. I've had innumerable people tell me that this isn't the most effective grip and I should use the thumb forward grip. I tried that a few times, and it always felt awkward and not very stable. A few weeks ago, I was watching a video by Bill Wilson and Massad Ayoob on different types of grip, and they said that the thumb over thumb is the most stable grip you can use. Which is what I've always suspected. I also tend to use the Weaver stance, but that isn't cast in stone. It's mostly whatever works best for you is the best way to do things. By the way, I have qualified expert in three different Armed Forces (Navy, Army, and Air Force) with the 1911A1, .38 Special revolver, Beretta M9, M16, M16A1, and M16A2. Good video, though. You always do a good job with your videos.
Cheers,
Zeke
Thanks Zeke. I think the most important thing is for shooters to adopt a method that works well for them. It sounds like you have done that! Thanks for watching!
Great video as usual. I started competing in USPSA matches recently and have switched from a weaver or modified weaver with a revolver grip to a thumbs forward grip. That is on a Sig P320 Legion. It is comfortable and I like the contract with the grip which is fuller as you said. I'll see what happens in the next part and change up at practice to see which suits my shooting style better. Thanks again. As an afterthought I will say that if I'm shooting strong or weak hand only weaver is definitely the way to go. I like to practice with all three grips. Cheers.
Excellent video as a whole. 29:00 to the end is the best message any shooter, whether for self-defense or shooting sports, should really focus on.
I have to get one of those timers :)
Great work Amigo.
What I would enjoy seeing is a similar test comparing the consistency from two hand (say MI) and single hand using thumb forward, thumb over thumb, and tea cup. It would be interesting to see changes in point of impact with each.
I just feel more confident in a Weaver stance; it's pretty much the position I used to take when I knew a fight was going to be on me at any moment. It seems to translate well into defensive handgun for me, as well, but never having been LE (despite being scheduled into the first CPD academy class in '85 ... long story ...), I don't have to worry about body armor gaps. Still planning on trying thumb-over-thumb with my 1911's. I have to agree you've got a point on not having to worry about switching grips when you switch handguns, and I winter carry a 586 L-Comp fairly often. I do wonder, though, if remembering to hit the safety first might present a problem; I guess I'll find out. :)
Great demonstration! Thanks for sharing!
You're welcome. Thanks for watching!
A very well made double video on a topic most interesting. Surely a keeper in my favorites list. Thank you, Howard, for sharing your expert analysis. Personally my grip varies according to the gun I am using, but I recognize several things of which I made a mix, over the years, exactly to feel comfortable and find the best balance.
Thanks Marc!
Gosh! You open my/our eyes...Thanks. I will try thumb over thumb..... My Sergeant-Major would die (!) RIP
Thanks for doing this presentation, I've done pretty much the same thing using my EDC CZ75B found the weaver thumbs forward was the most natural for myself my wife daughter and son-in-law all found the isosceles thumbs forward better with their EDC but thanks again for doing this i enjoy your site!
You’re welcome Steve. Thanks for watching!
Great back to back videos. Thumb over thumb works far better for me. I just can't shoot as accurately with thumbs forward.
Nice shooting! Like you said - we each should use whatever stance and or grip that works best for us. Personally I use a mod. Isosceles and that is the quickest and most comfortable for me - for 50 years of shooting. Response from yesterday (vest comment). I too have NEVER beat to anyone else's drum and have usually not dressed in "vogue" either. In fact I dress similar to you. That said, at least where I lived most of my life, a fishing or photographers vest just screamed "gun". Maybe where you live things are very different. I realize you were a public figure and probably well known in your town but for many who live in a more populated and larger city, no one wears them and they stick out like a sore thumb. So bottom line is yes, I'm sure everyone who knows you and knows what you did for a living realizes whats under the vest and won't care. I did not enjoy that luxury and had to always make sure concealed and secretive was priority one. Where I live now (moved to a very gun friendly place) no one gets bent out of shape by a firearm.
May I ask, in your former place of residence, what was your concern if someone believed you were carrying a firearm?
@@hrfunk
Sure - NY Lived there all my life, born and raised in NYC then out to Long Island (suburb not part of NYC) at 17. We lived there until last year when we knew that we just didn't belong there any longer. I actually came to that conclusion 10 years ago - but it took that long to get my wife to see the light of day - finally she agreed!! ! Now we live in a very gun friendly place where a firearms store or gun range are looked at as normal everyday businesses. No permits required except for concealing - and our Governor did say he would sign a Constitutional carry law if it comes to his desk. So now you might understand where I am coming from. NY will confiscate a CCW license if you are caught "brandishing" and believe me after having a NYS CCW for all my adult life it was not easy to get or keep!
Outstanding. I think the real winner here is a Marine & his revolver! Polymer or double stack, what?
Ha, ha! I have that revolver on my hip as I type this. I think I might just carry it with me today.
"Be sure to watch the video, and see if you still have this question after it’s done." And I do! What is ones empty handed fighting technique? My original idea stands. If one is "Golden Gloves" At the local Boxing club/ gym then the modified Isosceles is the way to go. If one does Karate or other Eastern Martial Arts where the "Neutral Bow stance" Is the fighting position, then one can transition from hand to hand to shooting from the Weaver as seamlessly as performing blocks, strikes, and kicks. It is highly likely that an altercation might begin hand to hand and escalate to where deadly force is required so being able to seamlessly transition from empty handed combat to pistolcraft could be viewed as important. I am a student of Kenpo and Neutral Bow to Weaver is as seamless as initiating any other Kenpo technique from that stance. One could use the "Forward Bow stance" Which for all intensive purposes, would be an exaggerated Modified Isosceles.
Thank you. I too have been a lifelong martial artist. As I think you’ll agree, different techniques work better (or not as well) for different people. Obviously, everyone needs to adopt the technique(s) that work best for them. The distinction in the video (and the reason I wanted you to watch it before I addressed your question) is that I don’t use a true isosceles stance. I agree with you in that the true version of that stance lacks stability and by extension, mobility. In the modified version that I employ, the strong side foot is dropped back (adding front to rear stability) and the shooter’s knees are bent to lower their center of gravity which allows quicker movement in any direction. In any case, the most important thing is for your stance to work for you. If the Weaver works better, by all means you should use it.
My thoughts as a very new pistol shooter, self taught with a few hundred hours of youtube video instruction and the ability to try out different styles with no previous muscle memory working for or against any of the grip styles or stances: 1) Stance - modified isosceles works best for me as a left-eye dominant shooter as it allows me to turn my head the least when lining up with the sights when shooting two-handed. Weaver (or something close to it) works better when I practice single handed. 2) Grip - Thumb-over-thumb works best for me. I have pretty big hands and on my primary range pistol (IWI Masada) thumbs forward feels a lot less secure to me since I actually don't get much contact on the grip with my left hand as there's very little real estate left there once I wrap my RH fingers around the grip. I experienced the same with a VP9, a PPQ, a VP9SK, a BB Tech BB6 and a M&P 40SW. My two cents, for whatever that's worth...
If I might, your particular thumbs-forward grip is somewhat different than is most commonly taught. The bulk of your hand, that is, basically everything except for your thumb, is at the level of the bottom of the trigger guard and lower. I think if you were to rotate your wrist, moving the heel of your hand higher on the grip and pressing your thumb farther forward along the frame, you might actually see a noticeable difference in your shooting. Getting "meat" higher on the pistol aids in recoil control. I too shot for many years with the thumb-over-thumb grip and transitioning to the thumbs-forward was very strange for me. I played around with slight variations quite a bit, finally settling on a grip that has almost 1/3 of the palm of my off hand above the line of the bottom of the trigger guard. I've also found great value in checkering or stippling on the bottom of the trigger guard, to provide enhanced traction for my off hand index finger. Excellent vid as always! Semper Fi!
Semper Fi! I’m familiar with that variation of the thumbs forward grip, but it feels very unnatural to me. I also suspect it will exacerbate some of the functioning issues I mentioned in the video. It also will probably be even less useful for wheelguns.
Many Thanks
Still weaver
When i shoot revolvers it’s definitely Weaver that I use. As I believe this works best for me.
It always came natural to have my thumbs forward elbows locked out on my Glock but to have my feet in kind of a boxing stance
Stance is a preferance and I like both, depending how I am dressed. I live in a state that has concealed carry and I use it every day but it gets real hot here in the south so nit is not easy too cover a weapon with a jacket or vest in hot weather. It really forces mr to carry a pocket pistol in the hot times and that is a real bummer when you are driving a vehicle or just sitting down. I would love too see your take on concealed carry in these situations. Great Videos.
Thanks, Stewart. It's going to be a while before we have warm weather in my area again. Maybe when that rolls around I can come up with a video along those lines. Thanks for watching!
Impressive showing for the Model 19! I use the traditional grip for the same reasons you've mentioned.
Cheers for the extensive and thorough video.
Thank you!
Great trainning session. Will be trying them out on my next range day.
Good. Be sure to let me know how it goes.
Just requalified for my Retired LEO CCW Permit yesterday. Isosceles & thumbs forward on my Sig P365 XL. That is the technique that I've used since transitioning from revolvers to semi autos in the early 90's. Will give your best positioning a try at my next range session and will keep you posted. Thanks again.
I think I want as near a perfect triangle as I can get,stability,I shoot Weaver too on occasion but new shooters should not shoot Weaver first.
Great content. Thanks for sharing your expertise. For me, this was definitely valuable training techniques. Since I don't have years of muscle memory in grip and stance behind a pistol, I think it will be easier to hone in on what works best for me.
I hope you do. Thanks for watching!
I utilize both stances, although modified versions of each. I usually shoot using the Isosceles stance, unless I'm taking a longer, slow, precise shot, then I use the Weaver stance. I guess I'm not Tacticool, because I just can't do the thumbs forward thing. I've tried teaching myself to, but when I just draw and fire, I'm ALWAYS thumb over thumb...it's just how I was taught, and have shot for nearly 5 decades.
It took me a while and a lot of conscious effort to make that transition. I think it will be easier to switch back.
@@hrfunk If it works for you, then I say do it. That's what matters. 👍🏻
Good stuff. I generally use the "old style" grip. It works for me, and I like the versatility of it, as you mention. I don't get too locked into one style of stance though. Again, whatever works. Thanks!
My pleasure Chris!
No dog in the race for me, but from a testing perspective you should change the order of the stances to reduce practice and warmup biases in testing.
Probably. I was in something of a rush to get this one recorded. So I just try to get through it as quickly as I could.
I've not used the thumb forward technique because I cannot envision how it supports the firearm any better than the other techniques. Indeed, it appears to weaken the grip. I suppose if a thumb rest was embedded in the frame, it might provide some positive purchase, but I know of no firearm that has such a feature. From your demonstration it appears the differences in performance between the three styles is minuscule. I agree the shooter should use the one that works best for the individual and the chosen handgun. One size/style does not fit all.
As always a superb video. Mr. Funk would you give consideration to do an instructional video on shooting with both eyes open vs one eyed sighting shooting. I have been trying to change from one eye to both eyes open mostly due to my age (76).
I’ll think about it. I think it might be difficult since I can’t show people what I’m seeing when I acquire a sight picture.
An enjoyable and informative presentation as always, Mr. Funk! Might I offer up an experiment years ago, that I found interesting?
Similar drills, similar stances, but with your hands thoroughly basted with ketchup on a windy, crappy day.
In my experimentation I found that I was able to control the gun marginally better out of the Weaver stance, thumbs forward.
I also found that ketchup etches blueing, and ruins rosewood grips. :)
Your results may vary, I just found it interesting, crappy days and burgers can strike without warning!
Thanks! I’ve seen other similar experiments. Maybe I’ll try one sometime.
Great shots chief 🇺🇸
H, I'd like to see a video where you're training\shooting while subtly sliding your torso one direction or the other (like Tom Brady slipping a defender in the pocket). if we're 5 - 7 yds apart, shooting at the same time, haven't I created a slight advantage if I'm moving and now 8-12" to the right (and in motion) of where I was when your gun was coming up to fire?
Absolutely. I have done shooting/moving videos in the past. For whatever reason, they did not get a lot of views.
Thumb over thumb is a variation the Israël Defense uses. I believe the theory is in true close combat its much more difficult to have your pistol taken from your hands as you have a very strong hand natural grip. I find the first shot more accurate than thumbs forward actually but multiple follow up shots are less accurate than thumbs forward.
When I was taught that grip nearly 4 decades ago, I don’t remember anyone mentioning it’s benefit In terms of weapon retention. That said, a few others have mentioned that in the comments to this video. I wonder if it’s a more recent concept?
All shots are effective may I ask; was anticipating the action in in any case ? Meaning the shooter can prepare any better as when you suggested the isosceles was a more natural position?
I think the biggest factor is for the shooter to come up with a technique that works well for him/her. After that, it’s just a matter of training.
Great video H R. I cannot get used to the thumb forward grip as my thumbs naturally like the thumb over thumb grip. Something I noticed and I might be wrong here but when you were faced off on the target for each course it seemed you were square to the target and when shooting the weaver stance, you had to shift your feet which might account for the longer times. I started shooting with the weaver stance but after wearing body armor and figuring out like you pointed out in the last video the side panels had little to no protection I switched to the Isosceles stance. Another factor in shooting stance is what are you doing at the time of the draw, field interview you might be blade and go to the weaver, squared off on someone you might already be in the isosceles. Practice, practice, practice. Also, I am looking for a shot timer, any suggestions as to a couple of good ones?
Thanks Tom! In the very first draw with the 1911, I accidentally started with my feet already in position. I did that out of habit, and when I realized what I had done I made sure to start with my feet parallel after that. That way for both the isosceles and the weaver stance I had to move my feet into position. Regarding the timer, I use one manufactured by "Competition Electronics." I've had it for years, and it has worked well. The current version from that company has a few more bells and whistles. Take care!
@@hrfunk Thank you. David says Hi
Thanks Tom. Be sure to tell him I said “Hi.” He and I had some great sparring sessions back in the day.
Although not tested or mentioned in this video, the thumbs down or what I call the revolver grip is superior should a struggle for the weapon happen. With thumbs up, the shooter loses some ability to retain their pistol or revolver. I've been shooting modified Isosceles for years now with the traditional thumbs down grip.
This is a recurring theme in these comments. Maybe I’ll test that in a future video.
2 Funk videos in one day... Is it my birthday!
I wonder if the dispersion on the traditional grip with the 1911 was a function of caliber and not the grip per se. It would be interesting to see what the dispersion would look like in a 1911 chambered in 9mm using the traditional grip.
Maybe I’ll give that a try, although I think the Steyr gave us a pretty good idea.
@@hrfunk I was thinking more on lines that it is something about the 1911 platform that gives an advantage to the thumbs forward grip. My understanding it that thumbs forward was developed by competitive shooters at a time when the 1911 dominant platform. I also wonder if competitive shooting has driven technique because fractions of seconds and inch make a difference in competition but don't in the practical world. As Paul Harrell "is there enough difference to make a difference, you decide.".
I am going to use analogy to support the idea that you do what works for you. Those of you who know golf know that Jim Furyk has terrible yet he gets the club face square to the ball.
It is the same way shooting. If you are fast and accurate using what ever stance grip wo
I agree. I just made a similar point in another reply.
I wonder which one comes out on top at further distances.
I suspect that depends as much on the shooter as it does the stance.
In case you haven't seen it, here's the only interview I've seen with Weaver stance inventor Randy Weaver.
ruclips.net/video/CFq5Qkedl3Q/видео.html
Thanks. I'll take a look at it.
Was a very good idea to do this video
Thanks Tom!
When shooting revolvers I place my thumb on the recoil shield. It may get a little warm but it's only 5 or 6 rounds. That tends to help with recoil. Also, nice haircut, you were starting to look like you were in the air force. Just kidding.
I know, I know. I hate the idea of finding/training a new barber.
Looking back on the video you did not appear to be using an actual weaver stance. Your arms looked the like an isosceles stance during all the shooting. Your left arm was never bent.
I think some of that might have been due to camera angle. Also, I do not bend my support arm nearly as much as some others do when assuming the Weaver stance. If you look at photos of Randy Weaver, you’ll see his arms are bent very nearly the same as mine.
My "new" range doesn't allow "rapid" fire... It really impairs my ability to test these sort of things out for myself.
What is considered “rapid fire”?
@@hrfunk 2 seconds between each shot.
I'm not the best shot, but I can definitely place my shots tightly on target a lot faster than that.
@@showtime2629 I’m always amazed when ranges implement such ridiculous rules.
@@hrfunk Sometimes it's understandable. I was a member of a club with an indoor range that only allowed 22 rimfire. Someone had let a new shooter cut loose rapid fire with a 44 and they took out a light on the ceiling.
I prefer to shoot my 1911’s with my strong hand thumb on top of the safety. I’ve heard many times that shooting with that thumb below the safety runs the risk of flipping the safety on during recoil.
Don't ride the safety. Ýou run the risk of the thumb contacting and impending the slide travel. A proper thumb over thumb grip won't increase the chances of inadvertently deploying the safety. The combination of a modified Weaver stance and thumb over thumb grip has worked very well for me 45+years. Yeah,I'm a fudd.However my fuddery is limited to explosive ordnance being infringed.😉
A lot of people do that. The important thing is to use the technique that works best for you.
Great video, good shooting and I think your final conclusions were spot on. Familiarity with your pistol and practice will make much more difference to your shooting that choosing one stance over another. That said, I think your video proved a couple of other points too. You shoot better from an isosceles stance than a weaver because it is very familiar to you. And the body will fall more naturally into an isosceles stance than a weaver stance as evidenced by the footage of you shooting 5 shots from your 1911 (and the Steyr) from the weaver stance when (and I can’t believe I’m saying this to a Marine and professional LEO) your stance was more isosceles than weaver. Sorry - ex pistol trainer. 😊 I suspect you had the dynamic push/pull tension from the weaver but both arms looked at full extension rather than the the weak arm being bent underneath and exerting more downward and rearward pull on the pistol to manage the recoil. But that doesn’t alter the main conclusion - find what’s comfortable to you and then practice, practice, practice…
Good presentation and discussion. Thank you.
Thanks Alan. I’m glad you enjoyed it. Interestingly, I saw the same thing you did when I was reviewing/editing the video. Old habits….
@@hrfunk They are clearly effective old habits. 😊
Isosceles Rules !
Hes just shooting faster on his 3rd attempt. I do the same. The first one is always slower.
If so, I think that further demonstrates how little difference there is between these techniques.
what 1911 is he using
My S&W 1911PD
@@hrfunk thanks
Proper Weaver has never been taught with taking a step back during the firing stroke as demo'd in the video, or drawing and firing with one foot already to the rear. AS taught by American Pistol Institute/Gunsite weaver was/ has been taught with the torso and hips squared up with the target, just like in isosceles with the exception of maybe the support side foot an inch or two ahead of the firing side foot. This "blading" fallacy has been around for some time and especially espoused on the innanet. If you are going to make an honest comparison between techniques at least do proper research to show the difference, not some watered down interpretation of what is.
If you look at photographs of Randy Weaver, it appears that he had his body partially bladed. In fact the photos look very similar to the stance I was demonstrating in this video. That said, there have been many variations of these dances over the years.
Great content as usual Howard. I love snub nose revolvers, I have them in 22lr, 38 special, 9mm, and 357. I would love to see a video on snub nose accuracy (how to aim, where to hold, etc.) . Thanks for all your great videos, I'm in my seventies and have only been shooting for the last 2 years. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks Cliff. I’ll see what I can come up with.
Was the paper target shooting back at you? Now think how you present YOUR body as a potential target. Weaver. Every time.
Not if you are wearing body armor as Henry explained.
Using words like “every”and “always”, is dicey when discussing defensive tactics.