In my opinion you have one of the best channels out there for people who love watching a classic car get restored. I really enjoy your content and how you show it, really great, way better than watching regular tv that's for sure! Thanks and keep up the great work.
This is awesome! I remembered always wanting to fix my father's 69 Trans Am that we slowly sinking in the dirt. I still have it and would love to fix it one of these days! This is great motivation! Thank you!
Wow, A lot of great information On the best way to deconstruct And save your measuring points. For most of us, taking a car that far down would be overwhelming. Glad we have aftermarket companies like AMD that makes it possible to bring cars like this back to like new condition. Look forward to the rest of the videos, thanks for bringing us along.
Thank you for watching and the feedback. I agree 100% we are lucky to live in a world where these companies and the aftermarket support make restoring these cars possible when they are this far gone.
Congratulations 🍺, this Rust buckets are the nightmare for a regular shop , great fo you that take this jobs and put a lot of effort , great actitude and make the " magic " happen . Great job👍🏼
Hello Rick, I've watched most of your videos, first time commenting, I can't tell you how much your frame jig and trammel points system has impressed me. I've seen a bunch of other guys on the tube doing major reconstruction without those reference points and while I'm sure their cars come out close, I doubt they're dialed in like yours. I have a 69 Charger R/T I bought in 1982 that will look like your Firebird before it starts going back together and I know your system is the the right one to use. Keep up the great videos - I enjoy your builds more than any other! And thank you for taking the time to put out the videos, I'm sure your business will flourish with people being able to see top quality work.
Thank you very much for the continued support and the feedback that really means a lot. Good luck on your 69 Charger build let and keep me updated on how its going.
went further with your firebird than i did with mine! my outer rockers, upper cowl and outer cowls were good on my '67 aside from that, i did the same.great work, keep it up.
I enjoy watching you work, sharing your thoughts and showing us all how to accomplish each step of restoring these cars that mean so much to us. Like you, I have an old car that I have moved from place to place saying, one day i'm going to restore it. Learning from you tube channels like yours I am now well into doing just that. Thank you!
That escalated quickly!!! 🤣🤣 She sure looks scary! Looking forward to the series. If you can really elaborate on the quarter to trunk floor drop off when you put back on. It is really close looking to a Chevelle and would help me out man
I like how detailed you are in showing what your doing. Looks like the original color is limelight green on the cowl sides. If it is, it's the same color as my 69 GTO.
I think someone posted earlier and said the original color of this one was Azteck Gold. It might be hard to see on camera but I think it is more of a gold especially since the interior is bright gold so they would have matched. Thanks a lot for watching
I don’t think my family heirloom 1969 Firebird that was Aztec gold kind of like yours with a black interior and a black vinyl top will require this extensive work but I’m glad you were making this video because if I have to I will build it exactly the way you do. Thank you.
@@carthageclassiccars yes I had ordered the build sheet from the Pontiac historical society. They have given me the copy of the build and specs this car came with. Pontiac was good at keeping records for their vehicles.
Good lord bro 😂 is this your first car or something? Must have some serious sentimental value. Great video, major project for sure. Just found your videos recently and have been binge watching them.
Thanks for watching. Yes first car and in the video before this one of your see it yes I address the fact it's not going to be worth the restoration but I know what I want and how I want it built so I'm ok with spending the time and money on the project. Again I appreciate you checking out the channel.
Last time I cut that much off a project car, halfway through it became a parts car, three quarters of the way through the leftovers were loaded into the truck, and delivered to the scrapper.
I agree this would be for most a parts or scrapper car, but its been titled in my name for a long time and I am stubborn and said I will build it some day 25 plus years ago. I have the personality where I will spend $100 to prove a $1000 point and this car is the perfect example of that.
@@carthageclassiccars ahh, missed the part where it is yours. I understand the sentimentality. Been acquiring, holding, storing, moving, tarping , untarping four mopar abodies since the late 80s, 91,and 2000. Finally have shell of my shop up and some time and money to hopefully do them right. Yeah, I'm one of "those guys". 😎
my first new car was a 69 Firebird. I paid $3926 for it. Would love to have one again. My dad was stationed at Huahucha in the 50's We went to school in Tombstone.
Tombstone would be a really interesting place to live full time especially with the shows they put on in the tourist area. I use to really enjoy our trips down there
@@carthageclassiccars I live in the Black hills of South Dakota now. I'm an hour from Deadwood where they do re-enactments of the shooting of Wild Bill Hickock. Lots to see here if you've never been. Everyone should visit here at least once. Most come back after once.
The 70-81 F-body cars had the VIN plate in the dash and two hidden vin stamped into the firewall behind the heater box, one below the blower fan hole and one to the right of the main air duct hole, not sure on the first gen cars but, how will you address getting the numbers back onto the car to restore its identity. Keep rolling....
The state I live in only requires a VIN inspection of the dash vin if it is not altered. I already own the car titled and registered so its even less of a problem for me since I can go to the DMV and get plates on it tomorrow if I wanted. My opinion is I am not doing anything shady as far as I am openly trying to keep the car as original as possible and restoring it best I can and can't control the rust it has suffered. There is that I know of nothing in writing that you need to have X percentage of the original to be considered a rebody vs a restoration. Its a gray area for sure on some forums and open topics of discussion.
Nice, what measurements did you get from your datum line (jig) to the floor under the seat? I am also assuming that the measurement for the front off the paper you had was to the base of the front firewall mounting hole and compensated for the mount? Cause the book says 13 inches and with the mount it's 13 13/16 inches. I'd be curious as to what your rockers were off of the jig. My car is already together, I only ask as a reference/comparison. Thank you for Sharing!
Off my JIG I measure 8 1/2 to the bottom of the floor where I ended cutting it off the rockers. That would be 8 1/8 inches off the datum line I believe. As for the front my subframe, bushings were shot and falling out could not check the car on the front mounts. This will be a measurement I will go off as it goes together. Personally I don't get too caught up on a lot of numbers especially on the bottom as as long as its tracking straight, the body fits well and driveline angles are where I want them. I will also check camber /caster in a lot of these cars as building as another way to doublecheck. There are times I will modify some of these measurements on purpose to produce a handling characteristic I want or make the body tighter. For instance lower front leaf spring mounts tend to produce more drive in a car. Also bringing in the leaf springs slightly towards each other in the front mounts will help stiffen and give side bite in the corners.
Any chance I could get the manufacturer and model of that tram gauge you showed in the early part of the video? I need one of those for my two rusty projects. One is a '69 Camaro that will probably need the same amount of replacement sheet metal that you're doing on this Firebird. I've also got a '68 Dodge Dart that I'll be doing a front clip/frame rail replacement and rear frame rail replacement. Both are huge jobs but I've gotten a lot of inspiration from your videos. Thanks for that, you wouldn't believe how much help these videos are for people like me.
That's awesome to hear take your time and think it through you'll be able to knock them out. Keep me updated on how they are going. The Tram gauge is Killer tools, I believe you can find it right on amazon
Great explanation of what it takes to get a rust free car. If you want a low cost, rust free car, buy a new car. Looking at your pile of cut off, rusted part, I bet you could pretty easily get a few thousand dollars for that pile.
Thank you very much and I agree with you 100%. I probably could get some money for the rusted pile if I spent the time to go through it and sort it. Honestly I have too much to worry about with everything else going on in the shop and life. When i don't need the parts anymore and the car is complete if I see anyone needing parts I usually offer them or just scrap them to not even deal with the nightmares that can arise from something not described ect.
First off…Awesome video! Your technical descriptions as you go along are educational and great reference points. So, now to my question. At this point I understand originality, but wouldn’t it have been better to find a better body? Or, a new Dynacorn body? At some point labor costs will out pace the cost of a new body. Just curious as to why do all this work when there are other options.
Thank you, so my take on the dynacorn bodies and what I heard. I think those bodies are build to try and keep cost down sacrificing quality a little bit. There is NOT weld through primer between the seams, they are not epoxy coated and from some of the stuff I have pulled apart a lot of their stuff between panels is bare metal. So 10 years down the road that brand new body will start to rust again. I am OCD and a like these car near perfect I will also add 2-3 times more spot welds making my car a lot stronger, I can guarantee I will not be happy with the fitment of a brand new body same as I wouldn't be happy with factory gaps. I know some tips and tricks to get the door gaps smaller that I can adjust while building. For me I am not worried about labor cost but I honesty don't think it will be a big difference when I factor in my labor and cost of parts vs a brand new body cost with shipping. I am going to calculate it and try and figure it out so I know for sure. Parts for these cars are cheap we are talking frame rails at $160 ect and building a entire brand new car its not as labor intensive as you would think. Hopefully that helps clear some of this build up for you.
@@carthageclassiccars thank you for the detailed reply. I had no idea that the Dynacorn bodies were so poorly finished. Having only seen a few at SEMA, I thought the quality was higher. I’m looking forward to following you on this build and partaking in the knowledge you’ll undoubtedly share.
@@waltergreen6285 I want to clarify I have never seen their complete body up close. I hope I get an opportunity too. I based that off what other's I know have said and what I see in their pre assembled parts. Honestly for most unless you are looking for certain stuff you might not even see and their defense they have to do what it takes to try and keep cost down.
Would acid dipping a body like this condition have removed most of that surface rust to where not as many parts/panels would have needed replacement? Just a thought, but i totally understand your points of rust between flanges. God i wish GM would dipped these cars in primer back then. So sad how many have been sacrificed over the decades due to people not having the means to do what youre doing man. I applaud you sir!!
So acid dipping in my opinion is something to feel good about but your banking on the unknown. Yes it would remove the rust, but like some of these cars I have worked on there might not be anything left of the inner structure where you can't see making the car structurally weaker and you might not know. Also one you get the car in bare metal how would you then apply primer so it doesn't rust again. Just a thought. I really like to strip them down and wet blast and epoxy knowing what is left is fully protected. Thank you for the comment.
Primo good sir. I’d say you’re close enough just order a few more parts and build another car from scratch. Only thing you’d lose is VIN. Absolutely the only way to rebuild one of these beauties.
Hey Rick, i am really enjoying your videos and learning so much, i have a question about this project. You said this is a big project and really not worth doing except for sentimental value, are you refering to cost of paying someone vs. doing this yourself? I have a 72' Nova I'm going to start on myself in the fall, it's probably in similar condition...lol I recently bought it so no sentimental value, should i not do it? Thanks
So that is a loaded question lol. My opinion I think its always better to build the quality car the way you want it. How I mean its not worth it is for the most part you can find one cheaper then you will have in the long run after you buy everything else but you never know what you are buying. You will also probably never be able to sell it what you have into it without cutting corners. If that was the case I would build them myself and sell to the public. I also have seen cars that are "high end" top dollar show cars with paint bubbles and rust showing signs of coming up and other red flags showing corners that were cut. I think what I mean by this comment more then anything is plan for the WORSE! Don't be surprised if your Nova end up like this. As far as should you do it, I think a lot of factors come into play, budget, free time, and skillset. I say think about it run the numbers and if you do I really wish you luck any other questions let me know and thanks for watching my videos.
That is an option, they are just very cheaply made and take a lot of work to fix all the issues that come with them. Also even if you are paying our shop to build this car when it comes down to it its still around the same cost. I will also say that if you check out some of my videos I install the front ends first before I weld up the rear sheet metal this makes the fitment a whole lot closer needing less in the bodywork phase saving some extra money and hassle down the road.
I’ve done a Camaro this extensive a few years ago. And about to start another. Is this much work worth while when Dynacorn is producing bodies for these? What are your thoughts on the Dynacorn bodies? Thanks
If you are building it yourself, you can save a little money this way vs a dynacorn body. Saying that the quality I am building this car at I feel is far superior then a dynacorn body. I currently have a 69 dynacorn camaro in the shop that I am fixing all the issues with it. The problem with the dynacorn cars is they are made to make as much money as possible and cut cost were they car. No weld through primer used, as minimal spot welds as needed. I can also add my custom suspension stuff as I am building if you watch a few more videos on this car to make it easier. It seems the front end fitment is a little more challenging to get very close body gaps, none of the trunks align and when its all done we have found rust under the dynacorn coating with a little filler in spots. I am not saying a dynacorn body is a bad idea. Where I see and want the quality of this car it is a no for me.
@@carthageclassiccars thanks for getting back so quick. My biggest concern is the quality of the complete bodies. This is a build for a customer, and the expectations are high. If I have to do a lot of reworking of the new body meet the standards I would probably regret it.
Haha as much as I appreciate being different, I don't think this car will be that way. Plus it wouldn't be original I have helped a buddy when we were growing up with his firebird with camaro nose and he made decals that said "transroc z"
After completing the cut down on your car I doubt you have more than 100 pounds of the original body still on the frame table. Your order from AMD will probably fill a box truck if everything arrives at the same time.
Yes there is some sentimental value and honestly I have half the cost in parts of the reproduction equivalent full body. I feel I build a better quality body, more welds , better fitment, and a lot more protective coating inside because I don't want to cut costs. I also think the car will mean more to me when I can look back and say I built almost the entire car from scratch. I am trying to do a cost analyst on what my parts and labor would run for me to build something similar vs the full reproduction's body back half like you can buy.
@@MAn-ti3ul haha nice, you actually made my night I guess you haven't seen any of my other video literally this is what I do, build cars for others. I guess times are lost on the pride on doing something for yourself vs paying some big name company. Also yes you are correct I am not a person that has the ability to spend a money for a finished one all at once I keep buying all the tools to build these cars instead. .
@@carthageclassiccars I too work on these old cars and it's not about pride in workmanship but about economics. It's cheaper, quicker and better for the customer to just replace vs. repair. My process gets the jobs done in 30 days or less and for at least half of what other shops charge in my area!
@@anthonywright774 I wouldn't say money to burn at all and 100% no sponsorship help at this point from anyone just hard work and saving my money. Of course I am not paying anyone else the labor, but If you know anyone that wants to help out please send them my way Ill wear a shirt and give them a shoutout. Also not sure if you were able to see but the whole bottom of the firewall had holes on it and same under the dash nothing but rust. It will be sandblasted on the next video as I also will do that myself but no sense in wasting blasting time and money on panels I know are destroyed. The firewall is $300 and the dash is $94 is it really worth Nickle and diming to save one or two parts here and there at this point.
First I have to say you are a true craftsman. 2nd you are a true craftsman and know your trade to the T. I absorb so much from your videos. Ok, so now question. What is acceptable to use for the sail panels and A pillars if I'm unable to use lead? Thank you in advance.
@@cjones22p Thank you very much and I agree for most projects lead is not worth the time and effort. I would recommend either Evercoat metal to metal (aluminized filler) or Evercoat Kitty Hair (long strand fiberglass filler) Be aware it is tough to sand down so I would as soon as its drying but can be sanded use 40 grit sand paper sometimes ill even use the DA sander to get in roughed in. Once you get it really close you will probably have to skim coat it with some good quality body filler to really fine tune in the curves. Good luck!
That car was pretty far gone. I had this done to a 1968 Camaro convertible about 15 years ago. The car turned out nice but I never tried to do that kind of major rebody again.
Yes I agree it is really gone. Congrats on building one that was also really messed as it is a big undertaking. I am fortunate enough to have some quality tools that should help and make the job a little more efficient but we will see how it turns out.
@@carthageclassiccars I think it was a good thing for you to say “..be prepared..”. The customer has to made to understand to prepare for the absolute worst case scenario. Doing these major body rebuilds has gotten much harder as all the people posting these builds on RUclips comment how hard (or how long, if at all) it is to get replacement panels.
Yes unfortunately I see the outcome all the time of people spending their hard earned money and find their dream car to only be in this stage with a uphill battle they weren't prepared for fixing major hidden rust.
Well the biggest reason on fixing this old car would be it has a title and can be easily registered. Swapping VIN numbers on a new body is not really legal but rust repair on classic cars is legal. I tried to save what is left and have a true 69 pontiac firebird I can legally register without and issues with my state. Also what i did save was parts I did not have to buy and parts on the inner structure really save a lot of time acting as a JIG for the roof and other areas. I am not one to replace parts unless I know it will save time and money.
Perfect example of losing your azz on a car. Just makes no sense, there is basically nothing left of the original car. No matter the emotional attachment to this, it is not the same car and a complete waste of time and money for the owner.
Well its my car so if you want a rust free solid car this to me is the better alternative vs spending 30-40 K on some bondo slapped covered flipper car that you will have nothing but issues down the road. So losing my ass they are not that crazy to build and the arts don't cost that much knowing what you get in the long run.
@@carthageclassiccars If it's your car that's a different story, you have the skills to make the repairs and not pay for labor. I live in AZ and have sold used parts for 23yrs, I don't see rusted cars and pull parts for a living. They are still out there but very few in the rust belt that are not full of mud. With your knowledge, you would not purchase one that was to begin with.
Yes you could but the new ones need just as much work to get them looking really nice and I feel i will build a better quality car for a cheaper price in the long run.
I honestly disagree with you on every aspect of this comment. This car was "unrestorable" in the eyes of most and to even be put on the road would have needed almost each one of the parts I spready planned on replacing. Its rusting from the inside out and structurally not sound and would have issues with it unless the rust was removed. If I was going to sell it even as a parts car maybe worth 1K max. The parts that are left are worth more to me the 1K in new parts. Also I personally feel I can build a full body f-body car with better quality then any dynacorn body complete with more welds and epoxy primer under the outer structure. If you seen any of the following videos in the series so far its looking that way so I stand by my choice and think it was the right way to go. Have a basic structure as my guide to JIG off and when this is done I will have a whole lot less in the cost of everything new into this car then you can buy a Dynacorn body for shipped to my door.
@@carthageclassiccars Respectfully disagree and stand solidly by my statement. You just trashed a perfectly viable original firebird to build a Taiwan sheet metal replica. “Unrestorable in the eyes of most”. Who’s most? Sure as heck not me. There was great solid sheet metal on that car. A lot of it. I mean, this car needs some work, no doubt, especially rear frame rails and the dash area, but these can be solidly patched as they should have. If the hidden surface rust is what scares you you could have acid dipped the car. If that’s cost prohibitive for you then I truly hope you don’t get your hands on too many more classics. They don’t make them any more and they’re impossible to replace. Leave the classics to the others who keep these things as original as possible. An original with solid repairs is worth 100 of these aftermarket stamped replicas. Hey, just my two cents. My comments don’t carry any more weight than anyone else’s. But damn I hated to see it. Take care.
@@JT-LV Yes we are on different pages for sure. I want to build a car better then factory that lasts 50 plus years not try and polish a turd, from a cost standpoint it is more efficient to replace panels. Just one more thing acid dipping, Ok so we acid dip the car and the acid removes all the rust between panels and in areas we can't see or gain access. So how to we protect the bare metal we can NOT access anymore. My opinion on acid its great for the short term once the bare metal is clean that car will aggressively start to rust 5 years from that point where you couldn't get acid. Also with the acid how do we know there is anything left of the inner structure. Maybe check out my video on a 73 challenger where the roof skin was in perfect shape and when I decided to cut it off due to signs under the edges of it there was nothing left behind it structurally. Most of these cars you say to keep original are floating around like this rotten from the inside. Owner was wondering decades before why it kept cracking the paint around the rear quarter glass and it was because the car was so weak from the rot that it was flexing.
@@carthageclassiccars yeah exactly, bad window channel. Common problem, easy fix. There were a lot of easy fixes on this firebird but you just trashed the whole car. I guess you need content and I can understand that. Buddy, you can have your homemade dynacorn for 50 years and I’ll have my original sheet metal classic for 50 years too. I promise you if it rots from the inside you’ll be the first to know but it isn’t going to happen. 100/100 it’s not going to happen, unless you live in the jungle or leave it outside in a field, but who does that to a classic? In any case, though, in all honesty I would hope, if you ever sell the car, you tell them that it’s 99% aftermarket sheet metal. We’ve got to preserve the real ones from the fake ones. Please.
@@JT-LV I was talking about the entire inner structure under the roof areas that you wouldn't be able to see. I have pulled many of them apart and its the same story, if you see any other videos on this channel most of the cars are a sunrise of rotten mess under the "origional " body. You seem to have an unrealistic emotional connection to something (the classic muscle car) that was designed to only last 5 or so years after they were made, Planned obsolescence, they were built cheap back in the day and its obvious when you dig into them. Especially since most people did leave them in the field the first 30-40 years of their life. This one exactly its been in a fiel for 25 plus years. I don't know what the complete problem with the twain steel is, when the car is painted and bodyworked like you basically stated no one will ever know the difference. The thickness is the same on the quality panels and its stronger then older rotten panels. I am not doing this channel for views or I would LS swap it the way it was and do burnouts until it blew up. I am trying to educate on how I go about building cars and am open to other opinions for sure and do love debate different ways of building. Thanks for giving me your opinion on what I am doing and watching the channel, like you said we will just respectively disagree on our ideas on how to build at least this 69 Firebird.
The benchmark to anyone wanting to learn about classic car restoration.
Thanks that really means a lot!
Gold standard for doing things right
Thanks I really appreciate it!
You’re an excellent instructor in addition to being an excellent car restoration guy. You seem so at ease with the camera.
Thank you very much, being comfortable on camera has been slowly becoming easier with time.
A maasive undertaking. Excellent video!!
Thank you!
These videos are all invaluable. I have pretty behind going to have to binge watch in the fall when things calm down. Great videos man
Thanks and I completely get it. I saw you had a new video come out that I wanted to check out but been so busy haven't been able to yet.
@@carthageclassiccars i hear ya man busy year. I usually watch most the video In the winter
@@SubdivisionAuto yes where you live I would never go outside lol
In my opinion you have one of the best channels out there for people who love watching a classic car get restored. I really enjoy your content and how you show it, really great, way better than watching regular tv that's for sure!
Thanks and keep up the great work.
Thanks a lot that is a really nice compliment. I do really appreciate you watching.
This is awesome! I remembered always wanting to fix my father's 69 Trans Am that we slowly sinking in the dirt. I still have it and would love to fix it one of these days! This is great motivation! Thank you!
You're welcome! That's great to hear good luck on your 69 Trans am it would be cool to be able to bring it back to life.
Awesome that you can do one for yourself. Looking forward to seeing the next steps.
Thanks for watching!
Wow, A lot of great information On the best way to deconstruct
And save your measuring points. For most of us, taking a car that far down would be overwhelming. Glad we have aftermarket companies like AMD that makes it possible to bring cars like this back to like new condition. Look forward to the rest of the videos, thanks for bringing us along.
Thank you for watching and the feedback. I agree 100% we are lucky to live in a world where these companies and the aftermarket support make restoring these cars possible when they are this far gone.
Congratulations 🍺, this Rust buckets are the nightmare for a regular shop , great fo you that take this jobs and put a lot of effort , great actitude and make the " magic " happen . Great job👍🏼
Thanks and I appreciate you following along with the build!
Can't wait to see every video on this build! You blow my mind with your skills and knowledge and all the fabrication on so many of these builds.
Thank you very much!
Great video. Looking forward to the next one.
Thanks for watching!
Hello Rick, I've watched most of your videos, first time commenting, I can't tell you how much your frame jig and trammel points system has impressed me. I've seen a bunch of other guys on the tube doing major reconstruction without those reference points and while I'm sure their cars come out close, I doubt they're dialed in like yours. I have a 69 Charger R/T I bought in 1982 that will look like your Firebird before it starts going back together and I know your system is the the right one to use. Keep up the great videos - I enjoy your builds more than any other! And thank you for taking the time to put out the videos, I'm sure your business will flourish with people being able to see top quality work.
Thank you very much for the continued support and the feedback that really means a lot. Good luck on your 69 Charger build let and keep me updated on how its going.
This is cool, I love picking apart cars, cant wait to see this one evolve. Keep up the vids. Thanks for your time and content
Thanks a lot, I have a video coming out in the next few days with the progress on this car.
Oh my, there is a lot of sentimental value out in the yard ^-^ worth the work if it becomes the car you always wanted.
I agree with you actually, I said that to my mother when we last talked about the car a couple days ago.
went further with your firebird than i did with mine! my outer rockers, upper cowl and outer cowls were good on my '67 aside from that, i did the same.great work, keep it up.
Thanks a lot and awesome to hear you built your car!
Great video series. Real work done by an excellent craftsman
Thank you!
I enjoy watching you work, sharing your thoughts and showing us all how to accomplish each step of restoring these cars that mean so much to us. Like you, I have an old car that I have moved from place to place saying, one day i'm going to restore it. Learning from you tube channels like yours I am now well into doing just that. Thank you!
That's awesome to hear you're welcome and good luck!
Ur above, levels above.....ur very talented my friend .
Thank you very much for the kind words.
👍super impressed with your work.
Thank you
Great video
Thank you!
Thank you for sharing.👍
You are welcome
That escalated quickly!!! 🤣🤣 She sure looks scary! Looking forward to the series. If you can really elaborate on the quarter to trunk floor drop off when you put back on. It is really close looking to a Chevelle and would help me out man
I will try my best to show that, thanks for watching!
Just found your channel. I live up the road in Seagrove. Good to see your professional work unlike many others around here.
Thanks a lot! Nice yea I know where you are at.
I like how detailed you are in showing what your doing. Looks like the original color is limelight green on the cowl sides. If it is, it's the same color as my 69 GTO.
I think someone posted earlier and said the original color of this one was Azteck Gold. It might be hard to see on camera but I think it is more of a gold especially since the interior is bright gold so they would have matched. Thanks a lot for watching
Wow! not much left Rick! Bonus is we get more video time to watch!
Yes actually exactly what you said was what run through my head I guess for the youtube content good thing it didn't just need a floor pan.
I don’t think my family heirloom 1969 Firebird that was Aztec gold kind of like yours with a black interior and a black vinyl top will require this extensive work but I’m glad you were making this video because if I have to I will build it exactly the way you do. Thank you.
Keep me updated on your progress when you do tackle it. So the factory color is galled Aztec gold, thanks I never actually looked up the name before.
@@carthageclassiccars yes I had ordered the build sheet from the Pontiac historical society. They have given me the copy of the build and specs this car came with. Pontiac was good at keeping records for their vehicles.
YOU'RE A BEAST..
Thanks
Good lord bro 😂 is this your first car or something? Must have some serious sentimental value. Great video, major project for sure. Just found your videos recently and have been binge watching them.
Thanks for watching. Yes first car and in the video before this one of your see it yes I address the fact it's not going to be worth the restoration but I know what I want and how I want it built so I'm ok with spending the time and money on the project. Again I appreciate you checking out the channel.
@@carthageclassiccars some things are worth more than money, I get it and I am guilty myself lol good to see it saved, memories are priceless
The wizard, I wish I could be an apprentice under you. Best of luck in all future endeavors brother
Thank you appreciate it!
Last time I cut that much off a project car, halfway through it became a parts car, three quarters of the way through the leftovers were loaded into the truck, and delivered to the scrapper.
I agree this would be for most a parts or scrapper car, but its been titled in my name for a long time and I am stubborn and said I will build it some day 25 plus years ago. I have the personality where I will spend $100 to prove a $1000 point and this car is the perfect example of that.
@@carthageclassiccars ahh, missed the part where it is yours. I understand the sentimentality. Been acquiring, holding, storing, moving, tarping , untarping four mopar abodies since the late 80s, 91,and 2000. Finally have shell of my shop up and some time and money to hopefully do them right.
Yeah, I'm one of "those guys". 😎
my first new car was a 69 Firebird. I paid $3926 for it. Would love to have one again. My dad was stationed at Huahucha in the 50's We went to school in Tombstone.
Tombstone would be a really interesting place to live full time especially with the shows they put on in the tourist area. I use to really enjoy our trips down there
@@carthageclassiccars I live in the Black hills of South Dakota now. I'm an hour from Deadwood where they do re-enactments of the shooting of Wild Bill Hickock. Lots to see here if you've never been. Everyone should visit here at least once. Most come back after once.
@@adubbelde1 I will remember that if I am out that way. I would enjoy that for sure!
The 70-81 F-body cars had the VIN plate in the dash and two hidden vin stamped into the firewall behind the heater box, one below the blower fan hole and one to the right of the main air duct hole, not sure on the first gen cars but, how will you address getting the numbers back onto the car to restore its identity. Keep rolling....
The state I live in only requires a VIN inspection of the dash vin if it is not altered. I already own the car titled and registered so its even less of a problem for me since I can go to the DMV and get plates on it tomorrow if I wanted. My opinion is I am not doing anything shady as far as I am openly trying to keep the car as original as possible and restoring it best I can and can't control the rust it has suffered. There is that I know of nothing in writing that you need to have X percentage of the original to be considered a rebody vs a restoration. Its a gray area for sure on some forums and open topics of discussion.
Nice, what measurements did you get from your datum line (jig) to the floor under the seat? I am also assuming that the measurement for the front off the paper you had was to the base of the front firewall mounting hole and compensated for the mount? Cause the book says 13 inches and with the mount it's 13 13/16 inches. I'd be curious as to what your rockers were off of the jig. My car is already together, I only ask as a reference/comparison. Thank you for Sharing!
Off my JIG I measure 8 1/2 to the bottom of the floor where I ended cutting it off the rockers. That would be 8 1/8 inches off the datum line I believe. As for the front my subframe, bushings were shot and falling out could not check the car on the front mounts. This will be a measurement I will go off as it goes together. Personally I don't get too caught up on a lot of numbers especially on the bottom as as long as its tracking straight, the body fits well and driveline angles are where I want them. I will also check camber /caster in a lot of these cars as building as another way to doublecheck. There are times I will modify some of these measurements on purpose to produce a handling characteristic I want or make the body tighter. For instance lower front leaf spring mounts tend to produce more drive in a car. Also bringing in the leaf springs slightly towards each other in the front mounts will help stiffen and give side bite in the corners.
Any chance I could get the manufacturer and model of that tram gauge you showed in the early part of the video? I need one of those for my two rusty projects. One is a '69 Camaro that will probably need the same amount of replacement sheet metal that you're doing on this Firebird. I've also got a '68 Dodge Dart that I'll be doing a front clip/frame rail replacement and rear frame rail replacement. Both are huge jobs but I've gotten a lot of inspiration from your videos. Thanks for that, you wouldn't believe how much help these videos are for people like me.
That's awesome to hear take your time and think it through you'll be able to knock them out. Keep me updated on how they are going. The Tram gauge is Killer tools, I believe you can find it right on amazon
amazinggggg
Thank you
Thinkin about the engine already. 😊
Actually I already have the engine, but still unsure the exact route so thinking through ideas
Great explanation of what it takes to get a rust free car. If you want a low cost, rust free car, buy a new car. Looking at your pile of cut off, rusted part, I bet you could pretty easily get a few thousand dollars for that pile.
Thank you very much and I agree with you 100%. I probably could get some money for the rusted pile if I spent the time to go through it and sort it. Honestly I have too much to worry about with everything else going on in the shop and life. When i don't need the parts anymore and the car is complete if I see anyone needing parts I usually offer them or just scrap them to not even deal with the nightmares that can arise from something not described ect.
First off…Awesome video! Your technical descriptions as you go along are educational and great reference points.
So, now to my question. At this point I understand originality, but wouldn’t it have been better to find a better body? Or, a new Dynacorn body? At some point labor costs will out pace the cost of a new body. Just curious as to why do all this work when there are other options.
Thank you, so my take on the dynacorn bodies and what I heard. I think those bodies are build to try and keep cost down sacrificing quality a little bit. There is NOT weld through primer between the seams, they are not epoxy coated and from some of the stuff I have pulled apart a lot of their stuff between panels is bare metal. So 10 years down the road that brand new body will start to rust again. I am OCD and a like these car near perfect I will also add 2-3 times more spot welds making my car a lot stronger, I can guarantee I will not be happy with the fitment of a brand new body same as I wouldn't be happy with factory gaps. I know some tips and tricks to get the door gaps smaller that I can adjust while building. For me I am not worried about labor cost but I honesty don't think it will be a big difference when I factor in my labor and cost of parts vs a brand new body cost with shipping. I am going to calculate it and try and figure it out so I know for sure. Parts for these cars are cheap we are talking frame rails at $160 ect and building a entire brand new car its not as labor intensive as you would think. Hopefully that helps clear some of this build up for you.
@@carthageclassiccars thank you for the detailed reply. I had no idea that the Dynacorn bodies were so poorly finished. Having only seen a few at SEMA, I thought the quality was higher.
I’m looking forward to following you on this build and partaking in the knowledge you’ll undoubtedly share.
@@waltergreen6285 I want to clarify I have never seen their complete body up close. I hope I get an opportunity too. I based that off what other's I know have said and what I see in their pre assembled parts. Honestly for most unless you are looking for certain stuff you might not even see and their defense they have to do what it takes to try and keep cost down.
Great
Thanks
Would acid dipping a body like this condition have removed most of that surface rust to where not as many parts/panels would have needed replacement? Just a thought, but i totally understand your points of rust between flanges. God i wish GM would dipped these cars in primer back then. So sad how many have been sacrificed over the decades due to people not having the means to do what youre doing man. I applaud you sir!!
So acid dipping in my opinion is something to feel good about but your banking on the unknown. Yes it would remove the rust, but like some of these cars I have worked on there might not be anything left of the inner structure where you can't see making the car structurally weaker and you might not know. Also one you get the car in bare metal how would you then apply primer so it doesn't rust again. Just a thought. I really like to strip them down and wet blast and epoxy knowing what is left is fully protected. Thank you for the comment.
Thank you for that insight I would have never guessed. Your train of thoughts make great sense and I can really appreciate the way you operate.
Primo good sir. I’d say you’re close enough just order a few more parts and build another car from scratch. Only thing you’d lose is VIN. Absolutely the only way to rebuild one of these beauties.
Thank you, yes I wish I could have kept more but rust had other plans.
Hey Rick, i am really enjoying your videos and learning so much, i have a question about this project. You said this is a big project and really not worth doing except for sentimental value, are you refering to cost of paying someone vs. doing this yourself? I have a 72' Nova I'm going to start on myself in the fall, it's probably in similar condition...lol
I recently bought it so no sentimental value, should i not do it?
Thanks
So that is a loaded question lol. My opinion I think its always better to build the quality car the way you want it. How I mean its not worth it is for the most part you can find one cheaper then you will have in the long run after you buy everything else but you never know what you are buying. You will also probably never be able to sell it what you have into it without cutting corners. If that was the case I would build them myself and sell to the public. I also have seen cars that are "high end" top dollar show cars with paint bubbles and rust showing signs of coming up and other red flags showing corners that were cut. I think what I mean by this comment more then anything is plan for the WORSE! Don't be surprised if your Nova end up like this. As far as should you do it, I think a lot of factors come into play, budget, free time, and skillset. I say think about it run the numbers and if you do I really wish you luck any other questions let me know and thanks for watching my videos.
I hope that is a very special 69, because that is an obscene amount of work you are doing.
its special enough for me to realize the only way to have the car I want is to build it myself to this level.
@@carthageclassiccars Beautiful work man. I admire the determination. I miss my old 69 camaro for sure.
How much would you charge to do to a 70 firebird what you did to your 79? Ballpark.
Oops your 69
You can email me at carthageclassiccars@gmail.com and we can talk offline, thanks
I wish I had the courage to do that
Thanks!
Extremely informative, but I for the cost a new body would be the more viable option
That is an option, they are just very cheaply made and take a lot of work to fix all the issues that come with them. Also even if you are paying our shop to build this car when it comes down to it its still around the same cost. I will also say that if you check out some of my videos I install the front ends first before I weld up the rear sheet metal this makes the fitment a whole lot closer needing less in the bodywork phase saving some extra money and hassle down the road.
I’ve done a Camaro this extensive a few years ago. And about to start another. Is this much work worth while when Dynacorn is producing bodies for these?
What are your thoughts on the Dynacorn bodies?
Thanks
If you are building it yourself, you can save a little money this way vs a dynacorn body. Saying that the quality I am building this car at I feel is far superior then a dynacorn body. I currently have a 69 dynacorn camaro in the shop that I am fixing all the issues with it. The problem with the dynacorn cars is they are made to make as much money as possible and cut cost were they car. No weld through primer used, as minimal spot welds as needed. I can also add my custom suspension stuff as I am building if you watch a few more videos on this car to make it easier. It seems the front end fitment is a little more challenging to get very close body gaps, none of the trunks align and when its all done we have found rust under the dynacorn coating with a little filler in spots. I am not saying a dynacorn body is a bad idea. Where I see and want the quality of this car it is a no for me.
@@carthageclassiccars thanks for getting back so quick. My biggest concern is the quality of the complete bodies. This is a build for a customer, and the expectations are high. If I have to do a lot of reworking of the new body meet the standards I would probably regret it.
@@carthageclassiccars if do build it out of pieces instead of buying a complete body is Dyancorn pieces the best quality ?
Good luck on the build and the direction if you have any other questions feel free to reach out.
building a car starting with a good rust free dome light unfortunately the bulb is blown but we have the measurements needed to replace everything:)
Haha yes that about sums up the thinking here, thanks for watching.
Frankenstein it Camero with a Firebird frontend?
Haha as much as I appreciate being different, I don't think this car will be that way. Plus it wouldn't be original I have helped a buddy when we were growing up with his firebird with camaro nose and he made decals that said "transroc z"
Dude nobody has cajones as big as yours.
haha thanks
If only GM provided vin tag XYZ coordinates...
My rust free 68 might still qualify as work but not a lotta no more.
A labor of love to really work on any of these cars
After completing the cut down on your car I doubt you have more than 100 pounds of the original body still on the frame table. Your order from AMD will probably fill a box truck if everything arrives at the same time.
Yes you are probably right on the weight total. It might be a few truck orders as I know some parts are out of stock at AMD.
At this point, put your vin and data plates on a Dynacorn. I get sentimental, but...
Dynacorn bodies need a lot of work. I currently have a new body in my shop someone brough over for me to fix its issues straight from dynacorn
Love to watch your channel.
Watching this one, why not just start with a reproduction body?
Sentimental value.
Yes there is some sentimental value and honestly I have half the cost in parts of the reproduction equivalent full body. I feel I build a better quality body, more welds , better fitment, and a lot more protective coating inside because I don't want to cut costs. I also think the car will mean more to me when I can look back and say I built almost the entire car from scratch. I am trying to do a cost analyst on what my parts and labor would run for me to build something similar vs the full reproduction's body back half like you can buy.
The reason he won't buy the complete repro body is he can't afford the cost all at once. Same reason he just doesn't buy an already complete car.
@@MAn-ti3ul haha nice, you actually made my night I guess you haven't seen any of my other video literally this is what I do, build cars for others. I guess times are lost on the pride on doing something for yourself vs paying some big name company. Also yes you are correct I am not a person that has the ability to spend a money for a finished one all at once I keep buying all the tools to build these cars instead. .
@@carthageclassiccars I too work on these old cars and it's not about pride in workmanship but about economics. It's cheaper, quicker and better for the customer to just replace vs. repair. My process gets the jobs done in 30 days or less and for at least half of what other shops charge in my area!
Good God what is left to this car?
Yes not too much that's what I was thinking
@@anthonywright774 I wouldn't say money to burn at all and 100% no sponsorship help at this point from anyone just hard work and saving my money. Of course I am not paying anyone else the labor, but If you know anyone that wants to help out please send them my way Ill wear a shirt and give them a shoutout. Also not sure if you were able to see but the whole bottom of the firewall had holes on it and same under the dash nothing but rust. It will be sandblasted on the next video as I also will do that myself but no sense in wasting blasting time and money on panels I know are destroyed. The firewall is $300 and the dash is $94 is it really worth Nickle and diming to save one or two parts here and there at this point.
First I have to say you are a true craftsman.
2nd you are a true craftsman and know your trade to the T.
I absorb so much from your videos.
Ok, so now question.
What is acceptable to use for the sail panels and A pillars if I'm unable to use lead?
Thank you in advance.
@@cjones22p Thank you very much and I agree for most projects lead is not worth the time and effort. I would recommend either Evercoat metal to metal (aluminized filler) or Evercoat Kitty Hair (long strand fiberglass filler) Be aware it is tough to sand down so I would as soon as its drying but can be sanded use 40 grit sand paper sometimes ill even use the DA sander to get in roughed in. Once you get it really close you will probably have to skim coat it with some good quality body filler to really fine tune in the curves. Good luck!
At what point are u just building a brand new body!
I guess there is a fine line for sure between restoration and brand new.
That car was pretty far gone. I had this done to a 1968 Camaro convertible about 15 years ago. The car turned out nice but I never tried to do that kind of major rebody again.
Yes I agree it is really gone. Congrats on building one that was also really messed as it is a big undertaking. I am fortunate enough to have some quality tools that should help and make the job a little more efficient but we will see how it turns out.
@@carthageclassiccars I think it was a good thing for you to say “..be prepared..”. The customer has to made to understand to prepare for the absolute worst case scenario. Doing these major body rebuilds has gotten much harder as all the people posting these builds on RUclips comment how hard (or how long, if at all) it is to get replacement panels.
@@johnkelly6942 Yes you are 100% correct especially for the parts I have a few of them stalled from the parts alone.
All of the meat has been stripped from those bare bones.
Yes that should be a good solid base to work off of.
Seeing all of the hidden rust makes me afraid of buying any "restored" classic car. Yikes.
Yes unfortunately I see the outcome all the time of people spending their hard earned money and find their dream car to only be in this stage with a uphill battle they weren't prepared for fixing major hidden rust.
I dont get it....There nothing left..! Just weld together all new parts to built a new old car.
Well the biggest reason on fixing this old car would be it has a title and can be easily registered. Swapping VIN numbers on a new body is not really legal but rust repair on classic cars is legal. I tried to save what is left and have a true 69 pontiac firebird I can legally register without and issues with my state. Also what i did save was parts I did not have to buy and parts on the inner structure really save a lot of time acting as a JIG for the roof and other areas. I am not one to replace parts unless I know it will save time and money.
*Promo SM*
thanks
Perfect example of losing your azz on a car. Just makes no sense, there is basically nothing left of the original car. No matter the emotional attachment to this, it is not the same car and a complete waste of time and money for the owner.
Well its my car so if you want a rust free solid car this to me is the better alternative vs spending 30-40 K on some bondo slapped covered flipper car that you will have nothing but issues down the road. So losing my ass they are not that crazy to build and the arts don't cost that much knowing what you get in the long run.
@@carthageclassiccars If it's your car that's a different story, you have the skills to make the repairs and not pay for labor. I live in AZ and have sold used parts for 23yrs, I don't see rusted cars and pull parts for a living. They are still out there but very few in the rust belt that are not full of mud. With your knowledge, you would not purchase one that was to begin with.
could of just buy the whole car new. nothing worth saving. (the Owner)
Yes you could but the new ones need just as much work to get them looking really nice and I feel i will build a better quality car for a cheaper price in the long run.
Jesus what a complete waste. Shoulda sold that car to someone who wants an actual classic and bought yourself a dynacorn body.
I honestly disagree with you on every aspect of this comment. This car was "unrestorable" in the eyes of most and to even be put on the road would have needed almost each one of the parts I spready planned on replacing. Its rusting from the inside out and structurally not sound and would have issues with it unless the rust was removed. If I was going to sell it even as a parts car maybe worth 1K max. The parts that are left are worth more to me the 1K in new parts. Also I personally feel I can build a full body f-body car with better quality then any dynacorn body complete with more welds and epoxy primer under the outer structure. If you seen any of the following videos in the series so far its looking that way so I stand by my choice and think it was the right way to go. Have a basic structure as my guide to JIG off and when this is done I will have a whole lot less in the cost of everything new into this car then you can buy a Dynacorn body for shipped to my door.
@@carthageclassiccars Respectfully disagree and stand solidly by my statement. You just trashed a perfectly viable original firebird to build a Taiwan sheet metal replica. “Unrestorable in the eyes of most”. Who’s most? Sure as heck not me. There was great solid sheet metal on that car. A lot of it. I mean, this car needs some work, no doubt, especially rear frame rails and the dash area, but these can be solidly patched as they should have. If the hidden surface rust is what scares you you could have acid dipped the car. If that’s cost prohibitive for you then I truly hope you don’t get your hands on too many more classics. They don’t make them any more and they’re impossible to replace. Leave the classics to the others who keep these things as original as possible. An original with solid repairs is worth 100 of these aftermarket stamped replicas.
Hey, just my two cents. My comments don’t carry any more weight than anyone else’s. But damn I hated to see it. Take care.
@@JT-LV Yes we are on different pages for sure. I want to build a car better then factory that lasts 50 plus years not try and polish a turd, from a cost standpoint it is more efficient to replace panels. Just one more thing acid dipping, Ok so we acid dip the car and the acid removes all the rust between panels and in areas we can't see or gain access. So how to we protect the bare metal we can NOT access anymore. My opinion on acid its great for the short term once the bare metal is clean that car will aggressively start to rust 5 years from that point where you couldn't get acid. Also with the acid how do we know there is anything left of the inner structure. Maybe check out my video on a 73 challenger where the roof skin was in perfect shape and when I decided to cut it off due to signs under the edges of it there was nothing left behind it structurally. Most of these cars you say to keep original are floating around like this rotten from the inside. Owner was wondering decades before why it kept cracking the paint around the rear quarter glass and it was because the car was so weak from the rot that it was flexing.
@@carthageclassiccars yeah exactly, bad window channel. Common problem, easy fix. There were a lot of easy fixes on this firebird but you just trashed the whole car. I guess you need content and I can understand that. Buddy, you can have your homemade dynacorn for 50 years and I’ll have my original sheet metal classic for 50 years too. I promise you if it rots from the inside you’ll be the first to know but it isn’t going to happen. 100/100 it’s not going to happen, unless you live in the jungle or leave it outside in a field, but who does that to a classic? In any case, though, in all honesty I would hope, if you ever sell the car, you tell them that it’s 99% aftermarket sheet metal. We’ve got to preserve the real ones from the fake ones. Please.
@@JT-LV I was talking about the entire inner structure under the roof areas that you wouldn't be able to see. I have pulled many of them apart and its the same story, if you see any other videos on this channel most of the cars are a sunrise of rotten mess under the "origional " body. You seem to have an unrealistic emotional connection to something (the classic muscle car) that was designed to only last 5 or so years after they were made, Planned obsolescence, they were built cheap back in the day and its obvious when you dig into them. Especially since most people did leave them in the field the first 30-40 years of their life. This one exactly its been in a fiel for 25 plus years. I don't know what the complete problem with the twain steel is, when the car is painted and bodyworked like you basically stated no one will ever know the difference. The thickness is the same on the quality panels and its stronger then older rotten panels. I am not doing this channel for views or I would LS swap it the way it was and do burnouts until it blew up. I am trying to educate on how I go about building cars and am open to other opinions for sure and do love debate different ways of building. Thanks for giving me your opinion on what I am doing and watching the channel, like you said we will just respectively disagree on our ideas on how to build at least this 69 Firebird.