A game is never lost before the nexus explodes, period. I hate how these LoL "theorists" like LS are so pessimistic and don't take in consideration human error. Even thought the analysis is good it just makes me not wanna watch.
@@AIIu_ If you look at LEC or LCK when they say the game is over. Those teams never throw from that point. If thesame position would be in a LEC of LCK match 19/20 games would actually be decided
DL said it best, c9 may have been ahead early but their team comp is strait trash into hec rene azir naut and kaisa all 5 of which can jump in an 1 shot/cc a carry. you cant play caitlyn victor no front line when then enemy has 4 champs who can engage and kaisa to follow up...
?? 12 hours is a normal time to edit 60 min video to 10 like what kudos for editor for not takin couple days but cmon, it wasnt like 2-3 hours but the whole day or night dunno the timezone
@@ukaszerber3922 Man what are you talking about. Literally look at any other content creators’ channels. Their videos and content are multiple days behind and they have even less editing than what is included in these videos.
And they said Spica's Hecarim was useless but he landed some of the best multi-man offensive ults I've seen in a pro match. It's matches like this that I can't take their analysis too seriously.
@@AaronBeSpeedy you are using results based analysis. Just because the mistakes of his oppones allowed Spica to find openings, it does not mean that Hecarim was a good pick. In fact, herarim was a terrible pick for the following reasons: 1. Lillia & Cait are both very good stand-your-ground champions, and so are great against hard engage. 2. Morgana provides too many tools to neutralise hercarim - he land the E knockback AND the Ult on one target, as Morg will be able to blacksheild. (Especially as, if the target is cc immune, Hercarim is forced to charge past them - which takes him further away from his targets). Furthermore, if Morg can land Q on Hec, will time out his Q stacks and E speed, making him completely useless. 3. One of his targets, Lillia, rushed Hourglass - this completely prevents him from engaging on her (especially as Hec Ult cooldown is long enough for the hourglass to be up before he engages. 4. Another potential target for Hec engages, the Victor, would also be incentivesed to build Hourglass if Hecarim was to start engaging on him. If Hecarim catches someone out, but they have hourglass, then engaging on them ints the teamfight - if he misses a Q and wastes his E, he wont have them for wayyyy too long - the Q cooldown is only short if he hits them consecutively.
@@serbestianmilo1477 I understand that the pick was terrible and I didn't say anything about it being a good pick. The misplays and poor positioning allowed the terrible, useless pick to have an impact in a match it shouldn't have.
@@serbestianmilo1477 You know you can't do analysis of something that doesn't happen right? What you're doing now is just conjecture to what should've happened based on way too many broad criterias. Hecarim's fear is AOE, Morgana's shield is for one person, this is simple math, and you have pretty much all of TSM comp as gap closers. Morgana's kit in the end will neutralise one person, and the rest of the CC the team has is dependent on positioning which is countered by high mobility and fast engages, not to mention they don't have any means of engage themselves, they just wait for TSM to engage and live in fear to not be mispositioned or you're just bursted out and CCed, this is also a problem in facechecking and map control. Mid and early game is not full of 5v5s but little skirimishes and pickoffs that TSM's comp excell in.
@@rajbirsingh6418 imo Damwon V Damwon, C9's draft wins, especially with that early game, C9 played like shit and TSM played really well into the mid/late game. Morg turbo'd the fight against naut in top and got caught with a hook forcing a Blackshield and then naut just R cait. It literally is just C9 hard miss playing. Also due to there being no front liners much higher chance to fuck it up.
@@imnoncreative1233 well first of all they had 0 tanks and 5 ranged Champs... so all TSM needed to do was engage and they would just win with brute force... second of all Fudge is terrible and he can't play weak side so that messed them up... Jungle was irrelevant after the first 9 min of the game for C9 and Perkz is just inting on viktor... the one good pick was Cat but thats cuz they got to counter it and their morg pick was trash since she was useless after the first 10 min of the game... Renekton hard scales Gnar with resources... Kai'sa hard scales Cat hard... and POE got his best control mage and shit on Perkz (11 mil btw) and sowrd art won TSM the game by finding picks while morg was completely useless
To be fair, it was more so the dive that got huni ahead rather than huni actually outplaying fudge. And jng diff should definitely be more impactful than top diff
@@haugi357 late game, he was still 100cs down, at that point if he was just less behind gnar gives much more value thank renekton but fudge is just such a bad player
@@meow-meow-beans you obviously dont know how top lane works... once he dies to the dive top he goes a lvl or two down and he can never sideline vs the renekton again, making him lose even more cs...
its interesting to see the contrast in thought process between ls nem and doublelift meteos on this game where DL Meteos thought even after that early game TSMs draft was so much better they were in it as C9 had no front line (other things to but more that every champ was just dead on all ins)
maybe they also agreed on the sheildbow thing and not galeforce first but they brougfht up that C9 seems obsessed with these no frontline comps and zven is kinda meh on cait not bad but doesnt punish like you need to but with no meatball out front so cait can get autos off etc. games just hella hard. i would lean towards agreeing with DL meteos but i dont watch LEC korea etc. which are clearly the better regions so maybe it just holds true for NA play where positioning is always a back breaking issue?
Meteos and Doubleift co stream seemed to be more accurate analysis and prediction based on game knowledge. What they predicted really happened 25 mins later
Yeah that's what I thought too while watching this. Those guys understood both how the teams and players think as well as how the drafts would work. Also didn't help Perkz had a terrible game
@@TimoCruz177 True not like nemesis used to be fnatic midlaner or crownie used to be SK ADC wich got recently put in for vitality also true that micky who joined later is not on the best team in EU right now said the same exact stuff they are saying. they are all not real players
its funny, they have all this experience and still see the game as this perfect chest match played by AI. in a game shit happens and not aways the better draft wins.
@@TimoCruz177 Yes but If the mistakes are so bad, that the rest of the world is making fun about NA, how can you be this much in denial sit there and be like.This is fine they are just stupid.No they are not it has nothing to do with perfect game of chess or playing the game perfect. Draft is giving you an edge over the enemy, and from time to time like it is in this case, the edge is so huge that is should be almost impossible to loose. That is only if you are not from NA and somehow still manage to loose. Even C9 them self confirmed later that their draft was way better but they just played terrible and made terrible piss low mistakes. That better teams like DWK like G2 like GenG or whoever wouldve not made. How can you sit here looking at all these people who do not always agree either with LS or nemesis and say YEP they are wrong because C9 lost the game.C9 lost cause they played like shit not because they are wrong lol ? So now I wrote an essay noone gonna read, and noone cares about :)
They were just straight wrong about the comp, doublelift and meteos co-streamed and both HEAVILY favored TSM's comp and those two guys have waaaayy more experience and knowledge.
@@chili24137 ye doublelift who got solo killed 3 times by perkz and miky who played noct fiddle blind pick botlane vs xayah rakan. Mikyx and other g2 players claimed c9 draft is better. Meteos was always super bad and doublelift never got out of groups at worlds for a reason. He has mechanics which is enough for na but lacks in iq
@@evajohansson2914 Ohhh, you didn't watch the game with dl and meteos commentary, go back and watch the game with their commentary and think about it. Then you'll understand.
I mean, C9 did give TSM chances to come back into the game (Specially that top fight) but I think it's clear that TSM's comp was not nearly as shit as they said it was. LS something looks at these things too much in a vacuum. C9 have no frontline, so the longer the game went, the harder it was for them to teamfight (Specially with mountain drakes for TSM) it was entirely up to Blaber to pull of an insane ulti for Zven yo be able to do damage. Whereas TSM played their comp pretty well, finding engages with Naut+Heca+Kaisa and Renek while Azir (PoE's best champion) dealt damage from behind. You have to look at these things from the point of view of comfort and ability to pull off their comps. These guys analyse this as if they were watching LPL's ir LCK's best teams. The ONLY western team they can judge like that is G2, because they're so far above everyone else un terms of talent and decisionmaking. Specially coming from Nemesis and Crownshot, who are very good players, but have made many mistakes as bad as the ones C9 made this game
Isn’t the fact that they’re so reliant on comfort picks and individual ability, rather than practicing the execution of comps that provide a significant advantage when executed well, one of the biggest problems of NA? It’s like in TCGs, you can get away with winning using a lower tier or even janky deck at your local store if you know the ins and outs, but if you’re participating at a tournament you’re putting yourself at a significant disadvantage against the top tier meta decks if your deck has exploitable weaknesses. If we’re really wanting NA to show up internationally, should we be settling for these kinds of games?
@@jag8897 no because anyone who does well at worlds PLAYS THEIR OWN GAME. Like suning, g2, fpx, albus nox luna, VIT, misfits. They either play their own style or have their own version of the meta. come on man how do people not know this lesson already. Also don't compare complex games like league of legends to TCGs where power creep exists where certain cards become unplayable. You can literally play any champion or style in league of legends as long as you know how to properly pull it off.
@@jag8897 that depends. NA biggest issue internationally isn't reliance on comfort but rather skill gaps, inferior soloq culture and infrastructure, among others. FPX won worlds using one style they felt very comfortable in, and really knew how to execute, against an arguably more ir equally as talented G2 (who for years now have been able to play multiple styles and are the most talented western team ever) who simply didn't know how to handle it. The problem is that all these streamers are just so much into this "NA is thrash" diatribe because it makes them popular that it just goes to lame extremes, like this case. For example, bypassing some obvious skill gaps compared to other regions, I think it's possitive teams are way more proactive and willing to make Smart plays than previous years. There's no longer a TL smashing everybody with a slow methodic gamestyle or a C9 shitting on everybody just because the rest is so thrash. It's a process, and being able to analyse this things is better for the overall development of the league, than just watching a game complaining from a position of self-entitled superiority while acting like a victim. That's probably one of the reasons he hasn't been able to be a succesful coach
@@Darkstormsun9865 The problem with this logic is that you are only able to start doing that when you reach a higher level of play. You can’t start playing weird off meta comfort without having a basic understanding of draft composition, which is what NA severely lacks. Or you can, but the issue with this is you require a much higher level of mechanical skill or a better understanding of macro, which is something NA severely lacks when compared to other regions. Sure it works within the bubble, but this shit isn’t going to provide good showings at worlds. Other regions playing their own game and finding good results does not devalue the merit found with finding at least one advantage by drafting better (or even figuring out better macro). That’s one thing that all regions are still working on, and if NA could do that, they’d have a better chance than trying to go head to head in another area they are vastly outclassed in
@@jag8897 so you think albus nox Luna is higher lvl play or misfits or VIT? You contradicted yourself. If we are so lacking in comparison to other regions why not walk our own way instead of trying to play catch up. That is what EU did. They found their own way and mastered it to the core so much so that g2 can take down skt. Same with China, they finally stopped trying to copy Korea that they created a faster pace meta and when the game finally supported their play style they became the new kings for a bit.
@@valiantthief5808 you have morgana to do that and a 3k gold lead at 10 with your jg 3 lvl ahead also playing fights shouldnt be that hard with so much kite tools and also having gnar + lillia sleep
@@valiantthief5808 The point of the comp is that you simply don't need to do anything of that sort. C9 just made some big mistakes and TSM were outplaying them on a tactical level. It seems more like C9 knows that the comp is good, but doesn't understand how to play it. The top fight should never have happened, there was no reason to be hitting turrets at that part of the game.
@@peytonratliff3632 When you see what is going wrong and it's happened for years while other regions have erradicated such errors, it's pretty hard to say anything positive.
C9 had such a huge advantage early, it seamed like there was no way for TSM to comeback... and they managed to massively throw it. Perkz just perma inted and Fudge was... disappointing. I guess it was just an off day for Perkz...
Perkz played terrible however people don’t talk about fudge or Blaber. Blaber inted two important fights. Perkz inted two important plays and fudge inted bot which lost them drake. So basically all of c9 played terrible. I think it’s safe to say that they were giga tilted
@@6666-l5g Blaber inted two fights because they basically had no way to engage and 5 ranged team follow up damage was too late. Perkz just inted in fights by simple mispositioning.
@@6666-l5g to add into Abdalla’s point C9 were only first to the objective for the first two drags and the baron. They couldn’t get to anything else first.
agreed. I'm genuinely wondering if LS deliberately goes against the grain just for the sake of being different. How can he say hecarim was useless this game lol?
Or if you look around the world in any other region TSM'2s comp is out drafted but considering this is NA draft means fuck all in the worst major region
@@lmco5690 i mean yea ig if c9 just plays it better they should win. but thats ONLY if they play better. in terms flexibility, c9 had close to none. they needed to have 5k+ gold lead consistently, and any lead below that is basically even. you can see it in game. ONE blunder in the top lane basically just fucked c9 over so bad that it didnt matter if they were up or not. they needed to be massively ahead, and i believe that even top teams in the world would think twice about drafting a comp that limits you that much.
@@Gurpreet-sv5zg if you think lillia should go damage when they have viktor as the midlane and all C9 have to do to win is help cait viktor survive then you're actually ill. You do know that liandry doesn't stack and viktor and lillia will always be hitting the same targets right?
@@futurebeyond3043 LS stan #13321 I presume? We already have the numbers from Phreak. We also have the numbers in LPL/LCK that are overwhelming have shifted Lillia build to the double burn build now. Last 20 LCK games: Liandry. Last 20 LPL games: 18/20 Liandry. 1/20 Night Harvester. 1/20 Moonstone Lillia has an overwhelming advantage over hecarim. Building moonstone has to be something only a failed LCK challenger coach could think of. Your comp has all in with the zero front line comp that is looking to poke off TSM before the fight actually starts. Due to how shit C9 comp is they have no reliable front line. No one can poke/harass as they need a mega gnar to function. Hell, C9 comp can't even function with a 4 man team if gnar ever splits. They need to all in on the poke and the double burn lillia is the best way to maximize the identity of C9 mediocre comp. Every team fight we saw what happened. Lillia went in to Q and immediately got turned on > zhonya > died. Moonstone great idea from a low elo LS stan. Can't wait for the next rebuttal where "if better teams play this comp" but no one in LCK/LPL has ever build this garbage comp in S11. Hell, if I am correct no one in LCK or LPL has played caitlyn this season.
@@Gurpreet-sv5zg yea lets just see lillia and viktor stack their liandrys on the same target and go run your numbers. Keep running numbers in a vacuum cause I mean that's clearly how the game works. Kinda feel bad for how much time you go through researching stuff like this and you forget the basic principle that viktor is going liandry this game, and since liandry doesn't stack lillia should opt for either everfrost for peeling or moonstone for sustain. Also appeal to authority is not a good way to go about things from an analytical standpoint. The phreak numbers I do agree with since he went and done the math, but now you go do the math of how much value lillia loses from building liandry when viktor already has liandry and they always hit the same targets. I will assure you you'll either go through the math reach the conclusion that liandry is not the best mythic to go here, or not even bother and drown in your own echo chamber filled with copium
@@futurebeyond3043 You would think the LS puppet would use their own words to explain why an itemization was better in this situation. You basically are deflecting the argument, regurgitating the same point, and then try to shift the goal post so you think your point has any merit. I get it. You can't ramble a coherent point so this is the best case scenario for yourself. It's okay. The research took 1 minute if that helps you feel better. Your whole point is that liandry doesn't stack. That's fine. C9 still built an identity where they need to poke TSM off before the fight starts off walking into them. If C9 cannot do this they will not win any of these team fights. Love how you somehow think viktor with no front line is going to get reliable poke off (he didn't). Appeal to authority seems like the LS route. I am just showing that better players are prioritizing liandry on lillia. I am also seeing lillia and viktor both played with liandrys as well. This isn't an appeal to authority. This is just evidence that supports my notion. I don't think you even argued anything. All you did was go do the math yourself but you didn't illustrate anything. Why is moonstone better for C9 comp? Why are you always insinuating that viktor/lillia are both able to hit the same target? We saw with C9 comp that they were unable to do so. Copium? This isn't twitch chat. You have to move on from these phases in your life. Not sure applying it on youtube is healthy at all.
I can't believe LS likes the comp with cait and vik with no frontline more. How do they hit targets without getting dove? If they fall behind at all they can't face check anything and the game is over.
There is a front line with the gnar it is just unreliable. I don't get why the gnar is so popular in pro play since the reason you want him is his mega gnar form for that engage but it is so coin-flippy and unreliable that I don't think it is worth picking.
because LS hates any form of engage or proactive play. unless you're full poke from half a screen away and is just perma freezing waves, he will say your comp is trash and you should lose the game.
10:30 If this was the decision that decided the game, I guess the 5 dozen other times you said someone solo-lost the game and it's impossible for anything else to happen was bullshit. A broken clock is right twice a day.
I mean LS is saying that Fudge just wanted to base and not tp so he lost C9 the game, when Fudge is literally tp-ing in that video so like he could say TSM did a good job picking yone mid and that is why they won and it would be as accurate
Is more like flashback from every single 1st place team in regular season in every single LCS season. They just love the excuse "We were just trying new picks" or things like that and then they get shit on in Playoffs/Worlds. As a TSM fan at some point I just accepted that and learn to just live with it KEKW
@@Darkstormsun9865 There have been 75 games played in NA so far, this season. Assuming the pentas were all in separate games, that still leaves 70 games with 0 pentas, which is a VAST majority of the games. Also, 5 out of 75 is 6.67%. That's pretty rare, I'd say.
@@misterjaeger6197 He never quit, actually. He was in negotiations to return for the split but after joining T1 as a content creator, Riot stopped talking to him. This is what he said on stream a few days ago, at least.
Who cares if they "counter" every lane, which Huni kinda owned top lane, C9 couldnt face check a single bush without getting 1 tapped during mid-late game. Coach gap.
your reasoning is akin to "things didnt go well hence it was a bad idea". Result-based analysis is fine when you do it on a 100 observation sample, not 1. If anything, i'd argue the problem was they put Fudge on a non-brainless champ where you don't have a frontline if Gnar can't manage the rage bar well.
Double lift said the complete opposite of what ls mentions in draft. C9 has no frontline do even if they pull ahead tsm has a stronger frontline and one shot comp so difficult to predict
@@mccm2442 Yeah but it really wasn't necessary and avoidable by simple shuffle of turret aggro, this should be an easy dive and Spica was definitely tilted, Idk why a lot of people say otherwise.
@@mccm2442 Vulcan was quite far and he could've rooted anyone else and they'd still die. it wasn't a good scenario for the dive overall even Swordart got the kill in the end.
I mean even with the hecarim not being able to play the game for the first ten minutes, the c9 draft is troll as fuck in my opinion. How are you ever supposed to fight against renekton, hecarim, and nautilus with gnar as your only frontline. Not to mention it’s fudge playing him and he’s volatile at best. I understand the idea that the lanes were counter picked, but I disagree with the analysis that the triple front line comp can’t walk into lillia Morgana. If they approach from two angles you’re boned. Caitlyn and viktor are never going to be able to shred a frontline fast enough to win any fights mid game. At 5-6 items maybe but kaisa will be too strong at that point for that to matter. 4 squishies are never going to beat an all in comp unless the skill difference is astronomical.
Ideally the only time they fight 5v5 is Baron and Dragon. In both spots you just have Viktor W block one side and Caitlyn traps block the other and there's 0 entry. If they force through Lillia sleeps them all. TSMs comp isn't as tanky as you think if Zven just went LDR instead of BT. I don't think this game was an example of how this match up should play out a majority of the time. It literally felt like an off game for C9. Just watch baron fight when Azir goes for shuffle and Zven flashes into it
Last worlds, NA drafted comfort into three losing lanes, and then their jungler couldn't play the game at all vs the top teams, we caught a glimpse of that this game. If you think top teams come worlds will int like all of C9 did(the top lane play where Perkz gave shutdown and Cait died when everyone else was resetting), I don't know what to tell you. Doublelift only thinks C9 draft is losing because from an adc perspective, he sees all the champs that go in and thinks, "wow I am scared", in reality if you play well and play around your jungler, the enemy jungler CANT PLAY THE GAME. Seriously, if you want an example of this, just watch the Twitch Rakan vs Draven game from last worlds, that game is perfect example why drafting comfort is so fucking stupid.
@@gmnr1336 Spica only couldn't play because the early game was pretty disastrous. It had very literally nothing to do with losing lane matchups and Blabber and the rest of C9 did almost nothing after getting a huge early lead to punish him. And, in reality, Gnar vs Renekton is a pretty even and very volatile matchup. It is far from a counter pick. Azir vs Viktor is Viktor sided but both are scaling champs who can't really do much in the 1v1 early. Cait/Morg vs Kai'sa/Naut was the only hard countered lane, and in the end, that doesn't matter because the Kai'sa wasn't in that much danger during lane AND Kai'sa/Naut outscales super hard. If Kai'sa ever gets on top of Cait, she just dies instantly. Cait's only advantage is positioning and range, but when you have a renekton, hecarim and nautilus diving at you, that loses relevance very quickly. In reality, C9's draft probably is better, but is also very hard to execute against a full dive comp like TSM's.
@@travisv518 Losing lane matchups means that he has 0 agency over what he gets to do. When every lane is winning AND out scales inaction is winning. Hecarim is a solo queue pick that thrives on chaos and had C9 been playing like they normally do he would have been down 3 levels the entire game.
Dont understand ls saying tsm lost draft, no frontline for cait with a full dive comp hecarim renek kaisa naut lilia sleep is not gonna save him same as a single morg e. Also its not a comp c9 is comfortable on and draft very poorly around cait. Dl had some great insight with meteos about it
@@WarringFighter such a short sighted comment, sad. The guy knows how comps should play out after playing for so long doesnt matter international dissapointment. If you dont like the opinion thats fine but pls get a better comeback argument
yeah the DL straem is imo the best if you dont want the official stram. his insights as a pro player gives a lot more nuanced insights in decisions and stuff. i enjoy LS super analytical and meta approach but DL and in that case Meteos find a balance of like yeah its technically not the idea pick but gives circumstance blah blah it makes sense.
@@WarringFighter no need to attack the person because mentioning the past is irrelevant. instead, just attack the argument not the person. ur comment is literally 0 iq.
I watched LS the entirety of last season and I see he is still regurgitating his same exact notions. This game specifically when Hec was down 3 levels and managed to impact the game somehow "he still does nothing this game" maybe its a player thing and not a champion thing but the things he says are just consistently wrong but chooses to ignore those times and point at the moments he is correct.
It’s because NA is a weaker region and in stronger regions like LPL and LCK c9s comp wins 7/10 times (watch LCK or LPL gameplay it looks completely different from NA). So 100% it’s a player thing as c9 completely threw that game. And LS even mentioned his predictions for NA are always wrong as they make mistakes top regions never make, and don’t hold leads like top teams such as damwon would.
@@ryankim1668 Just based on your comment I'm going to say you have never watched LPL in your life and haven't watched LCK in the past ~2 months comps LS would say are trash are consistently played like every day.
@@ryankim1668 If comps like TSMs would lose 7/10 times in other regions, Kai'sa and Renekton wouldn't be nearly as high prio as they have been all split in literally every major region.
HEY EDITOR OR WHOEVER DOES THESE YT TITLES: pls include #LS as one of your hashtags, it helps the algorithm and will help have all of LS's videos under one hashtag instead of split up among a bunch of hashtags.
I find it interesting how different LS/lemon and DL/Meteos were in terms of their view of the draft this game. Typically there are a lot of similarities between the two, but seeing how there’s no frontline for C9 it would have been nice to see a real tank top or some kind of frontline in the draft. Yes there were definite misplays, but it does show what not having a frontline does.
"hecarim is turbo useless" "hecarim is just not doing much" okay biased cast, can you look at the score board and see his build? his kda? He's a huge frontline peeling his carries and engaging when necessary with azir...only useless thing I see here is lillia with her 3 levels gap for the first 15 minutes and ended the game behind despite his entire team covering defending his jungle kingdom. Hecarim at 8:58 was 3/3/10 a full level ahead Lilia at the same timestamp was 0/3/4 but yeah, hecarim full tank with 3 mountain drake is turbo useless and isn't doing anything xd
C9 just need a tank top and they win, just need someone to facecheck and peel your backlane to survive the initial hecarim ult and re engage the figth from there with viktor + lilia and cait long range. But TSM just play better
@@grantadams7563 Or - and it may be hard to believe - Huni > Fudge. Mid lane was even (don't give PoE Azir) and bot lane got outplayed. Both can be true. Literally gave comfort to every TSM player. Arguably their best champs of 2021.
I think LS's observations about the draft are all valid, but they tend to assume the "DMW vs DMW" scenario where both teams are playing their champions to maximum excellence. Yes, Gnar should lane counter renekton and provide huge teamfight/side lane pressure but it's not just Gnar, it's Fudge''s Gnar. observing the draft you can clearly see TSM wanting to win through top - banning Gragas (which is one of the only champs i've seen Fudge really shine) and even after that disaster of an early game they went through with their plan, which again, relied a lot on Solo's ability to hold his own against a very fed cait-morgana combo while dodging Blaber's ganks (i think he also is a lot at fault here for not punishing Solo+Swordart) . They knew C9's comp relied so much on Gnar and they made sure it was heavily shut down. From whatt i've seen, Fudge is not really proactive even with a lead, when he's behind it's even worse.
i think the serious c9 problem is actually blaber sure he appears good but is chaotic pathing and probably 0 comms behind what he does makes the team play like headless chickens
I like how in Dlift strem he said there is no way C9 win they have no tank only mid range champ and how ls said there is no way tsm win they get counter on everylane and can(t handle lilia everyone think they know everyting it's kind of funny and sad :)
3:00 I find amazing how TSM is learning to dive like the brazilians team do. My region is finally been used as example for others... (: We call this technique as: 'Standard Brazilian Dive'
If anyone watched double lifts stream its so weird how opposite each felt on the draft. Double lift said tsm had a way better draft and said C9 could never engage on them with no tank. And as the game went on they couldn’t. I’m shocked 3 high level individuals like nemesis, LS, and DL have such different opinions on basic things like draft. I feel double lift was the one who was right this time since it all worked out the way he said, but still shocks me. I thought everyone would feel about the same on drafts and how comps work, but it seems it’s a big difference from person to person. New to the game btw so be nice lads.
So I’m going to explain results based analysis, because (almost impressively) some people in this chat are slower than I am. Results based analysis is a logical fallacy where the end is used to post-justify the means. For example, if I lose lane to Katarina as Akali and say it is a bad matchup that is results based analysis at it’s finest. The reality is that I’m just a feeder, Akali is still winning against Katarina that doesn’t change just because I lost that lane.
Yea... but people were making these points before the game concluded. Doublelift immediately pointed out that he didn’t like the C9 comp on costream. Interestingly, his criticism focused how he expected Zven and Vulcan to play the matchup, which is something that I think a lot of us tend to miss when we talk matchups. Maybe C9 comp is fine in a vacuum, but not when C9 actually plays it. It was sad to see how LS lost his mind on stream after this. It’s ok to be wrong.
Kaisa and hec is the two champs that must be first picked if not banned in LPL. Azir gives high pressure to Victor early game and Renekton is picked for the 8 minute rift herald fight. I guess LS really don’t know anything about other regions’ meta or pick and always consider something he has never seen bad.
Draft thoughts from the C9 perspective: Gnar and Victor are bad picks. Orianna and Pantheon are bad bans. Pick Lulu or Karma R3 to flex support/top. Pick Malphite/Leona/Shen/2nd Enchanter Support R4 Change Pantheon and Orianna bans to TF/Ryze and Sylas. Options for R5: Orianna (5v5) TF/Ryze (whichever wasnt banned to snowball botlane) Zoe (long range poke with Katelyn) [I dont actually play league, just watch LS and lolEsports regions so feel free to share your opinions where I could be wrong or the choice doesnt work]
Daaamn. After saying there's no world where renekton and hecarim can go in without dying because of Lilia and Vik yet TSM just goes "brrt yolo we goin in bois". Heck, even POE and Lost just going in. Did TSM really lost draft here or they're just not afraid to pull the trigger?
Nope, LS was just 100% wrong on this one. If C9 had literally any form of somewhat tanks frontline TSM was toast, but since all 5 C9 champs were squishy, if TSM committed to the fight in true LPL style, C9 loses the fight. Watch the vod on twitch, he gets aggressively defensive about why he’s right about his analysis of the draft but as the game goes on he get quieter and quieter because he realizes that he was wrong and that Doublelift and Meteos were correct in their analysis
Joseph is a DL donkey fanboy. If you watched the game you will notice fudge and fkin perkz dying randomly before every major objective. Actually zero brain
@@WarringFighter the entire game showed why LS was wrong to immediately dismiss DL/Meteos’s view on the draft, it’s okay to disagree and have different opinions but when you rage about a different opinion then have an entire game show you why the other viewpoint was entirely valid and instead of admit they had merit, instead gets quiet and tilts on stream and never acknowledges it
@@josephmuir4189 But thats the problem, it was fanboys like you that started attacking AFTER the game, and the main argument doublelift made about cait's vulnerability was never a thing, cait only got dove once when the tide had already turned. Why do you people ignore all the times c9 was getting caught constantly? You talk about merit, when the dl's main point didnt even manifest in the game. To add oil to the fire, the stream had people from doublelift's stream harassing him, and you're just saying he "tilted on stream" when it was literally people like yourself raiding the stream in the first place
It’s interesting to see the different opinions from other people like doublelift who instead said that tsm drafted really well with 3 tanks and Azir. LS favoured c9s draft but doublelift favoured tsms draft
Imagine it was R4 Sion/Malphite/Poppy instead. You just won the game, you even get to choose _how_ you want to counter their mono-engage comp and still save the R5 for mid counter. And you don't even have to use your brain in order to do so.
With any other team other than TSM this draft would have been lost. But you cant ignore the value of comfort and pocket picks. POE on Azir is almost unbeatable. Giving Kai'Sa to Lost is not ideal either. C9's botlane might have won with all the turret plates but what they didnt manage is to stop Kai'Sa from farming. Losts CS numbers were still too high desite "losing" the lane that hard. Also, Lillia is such an overrated champ. Literally 4v5 after lvl 6 this game.
@@NeverEverClever C9, had no front line, u just walk in to azir with tsm great front line. The comp was just lost from the beginning. TSM knew early would be tough but they knew they will win later.
It's weird the amount of times LS calls a draft edge and then the team with the edge loses. Do people just play that differently then how he imagines the game? I think so.
draft picks are important in pro plays, but at the end of the day if the team with the better drafts lose, that’s on how poor they played/maintain their edge
You should almost always take what LS is saying with the caveat that it only matters if the teams are playing optimally. The advantage draft gives you is rendered useless very quick if the better comp makes more mistakes. So while at face value most of the games with large comp edges should be decided at champ select, the volatile nature of LCS (and the human element of competitive sports/games in general) throws all certainty out the window.
Its not like Blaber played well either, apart from the early stomping. He essentially did nothing after level 6 and didnt manage to snowball his lead. Poor Sven and Vulcan.
Everyone acting like zven and Vulcan walking way too far up to get engaged on out of position wasn't what allowed that top play to happen in the first place to get tsm into a better position. That greed without proper set up started them no longer having prio to do anything as the ranged comp with no front line or engage tools. Comps like that one mistake costs the game and that was it. The rest of the team had to react which is never the better choice.
Because the region is dogshit and makes no sense whatsoever. You use logic to determine who's going to win, the you predict the exact opposite to be correct in NA.
Both meteos and doublelift were like tsm draft gap because they had no engage and no one could face check once tsm has map control. How do they live when the entire team of tsm dives on you?
I'm pretty sure Perkz's build lost them the game. Didn't opt into zhonyas as a core item, when his main threat was prowlers claw renekton. Even sitting on seekers wouldve changes a lot of the fights. I get it's really hard to take seekers into azir, but zhonyas needed to come out 3rd item at latest.
I love how people say C9 lost draft when the only reason they lost is because Perkz and Fudge got PayPal'd. Like please, look at fudge randomly go down like 20cs to renekton in lane, then fall even further behind after the laning phase and never get relevant again, running it down ontop of that for the rest of the game. Look at perkz get tilted for the rest of the game when everyone decides its time to fight in top lane at 12 mins for... reasons... who knows, maybe they wanted vision control of the gromp and rift herald kekw. Like come on guys, you guys just had to not feed topside and the game was over, they literally had a massive jungle gap not even 10 minutes in. How is that the draft's fault when fight break out randomly and players aren't on the same page. At that 12 minute mark, why did both Fudge and Perkz run straight into a renekton TP with a nautilus right there when caitlyn had practically killed kallista? How is it that the draft? Even if you disagree, and you think its a draft gap, wouldn't you think feeding a renekton and azir kills at that point, allowing them to get gold and objectives for free, like that would make that supposed 'winning draft' practiaclly unplayable at that point? Imagine if they didn't just continuously int at that point, C9 could have gotten (or at least been able to contest) the drakes, and the game wouldn't of just flown out the window. This is not a draft gap, and even if it was this is literally players celebrating they're in NA by playing a URF game, actually ridiculous. Like come on guys, 4th of July is still a while away. Regardless, I hope to see LS calm down a bit after the stream so we can get back to the normal streams of him being happy whilst simultaneously malding over LCK drafts while we tune out until he goes back onto Kitchen Nightmares. Also really happy that the Slovenian squad was able to hang out for a bit after which really lightened up the stream afterwards, especially mikyx. Also, seeing as this was like 5 hours ago, really nice work on the editing Tuvshno!
Zven and Vulcan can't be left out, felt like the top lane play where they overextended and killed perkz and gave shutdown was when things got massively skewed for TSM
I agree with that, but I feel like he would of gotten out alive if there wasn't a random call for a fight, or azir just had to commit more resources to kill cait. Either way though, even if TSM can get through all the stuns and CC of a lillia, morgana and Viktor on a 5v5 at a drake or baron (getting massively chunked by the team after lillia presses either Q or E, followed by an R), its like caitlyn doesn't have a way to reposition. If worse came to worse, she takes cleanse, which nullifies hecraims R engage (if he didn't die through all the stuns and poke by C9), builds galeforce and at worst flashes ontop of that. I get people saying that TSM can win if they run in, but if the fights are played well by teams (so basically if this wasn't in NA), I feel like C9 (or whoever on their draft) can just kite and stun their way to a win, unless there's some unholy flank by renekton or hecraim by the team playing on TSM's side, or if they just don't decide to int in general. Then again, I accept I can just be all wrong on this as well so I'm willing to listen to anyone who can say they can get ontop of C9, cause I also think that C9 could of actually had a better frontline or a higher scaling ADC, but I just don't immediately see it, so I'm open to discussion if anyone wants to. I'm obviously thinking about the situation without taking into account thinking about how good people are relative to others on champs, but I feel like if (in my opinion at the moment), if TSM have to play like Damwon to get through all of that CC then isn't there a way to draft maybe 1 or 2 things differently to make it easier?
C9 positions weirdly with their comp which loses the game but would have lost because they don't understand how to fight with it/set it up for the most complex of executions (Big Lillia Sleep > Gnar Ult)
It can be said that Fudge was one of the major factors why C9 lost the game, I can't help but notice that LS has some serious animosity towards fudge after their last interview. I guess time will tell if this statement is true or not.
Why are people crying over the comp? Tsm even did a penta. If anyone with eyes on their head watched the game one would come to the conclusion that this game was NOT decided by teamcomp. NA teams basicly don't respect fog of war and don't think about visualizing a preferable route in teamfights (maybe even just don't think in the first place). This happens in every game, in smash people always believe the best character is the one the best player uses. But in reality in most relatively good balanced games(also in bad ones) the best player could just win any game/fight with a toothpick of a character tbh.
Why are hecas running around pressing Q all the time out of combat? I've missed some item/rune upgrade that makes this worthwhile, I'm sure. Someone help me out?
I honestly don't get why LS is so surprised that TSM's draft worked. it's 4 champions who just want to deathball into the enemies, strong engage, strong follow-up. Very on-theme with each other. The only champion who is a bit wonky is the Azir but that's it. And what's so terrible about Gnar top? C9 clearly needed a tank who didn't just fold to Renekton during the laning phase. Gnar is fine.
Ls showing again that his "knowledge" is so overated. What a ton of bs. Dl actually said everything that would happen from the start : c9 gets outscaled and cant tf. They need to play peefectly to win since they have no front line while tsm comp can accord to fall behind ans has better 5v5 and better scaling. C9 comp is good only i lannong phase. C9 couldnt have a better early and they still lost. Defo draft gap
Its because ls is so concentrated on niche "counters" to champions and flames any team that doesnt 500iq counter in champ select. He doesnt take into consideration the human factor in these games. Having a draft that is easier to execute and has fail-safes is much better than a perfect megamind counter draft. It tilts me so hard. Every one of these videos is just ls and friends flaming every decision any team or player makes. Sucks because ls is smart but the flame makes it impossible to sit through.
@@kngcoi3402 I'd not call someone so filled with certitude "smart" . He can't bare being wrong it is a huge hurdle to progress as a human being on anything. His take on the draft was clearly wrong and he couldn't admit it.
You are obviously a TSM hater and cant admit that TSM huge outdrafted them . How can you say nautilus and renekton wont get to c9 carries ? Blackshield is for 1 person only and flash is available in this game . Your knowledge about this game and professional drafts makes me throw myself out of the window .
TSM is the only team that can actually comeback from a game like this, not saying they always do, but it's kinda "their thing", I remember 1 game in finals vs Immortals, they were 10k behind, nexus almost down and in just 2 tf, the won the game.
It’s so funny. I just watched the Meteos and DLift co-stream and they heavily favored TSM’s comp. They cited C9’s comp inability to deal with all-ins but here LS is saying C9’s comp should have done well against their all in but in-game all TSM did was constantly all in with success... hmmm... LS might be wrong for once LOL.
![Ice On My Teeth - ATEEZ エイティーズ 에이티즈 [Music Bank] | KBS WORLD TV 241115](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/c-n92OgbbwA/mqdefault.jpg)
A game is never lost in NA until the Nexus explodes
Tsm embodies this and that’s why I love the team
Or when you are doing dragon while opponent is taking your base
A game is never lost before the nexus explodes, period. I hate how these LoL "theorists" like LS are so pessimistic and don't take in consideration human error. Even thought the analysis is good it just makes me not wanna watch.
As an OG would say, its not over till its over
@@AIIu_ If you look at LEC or LCK when they say the game is over. Those teams never throw from that point. If thesame position would be in a LEC of LCK match 19/20 games would actually be decided
Ok so I literally saw the level 3 to level 6 jungle gap and just assumed the game was over and didn’t watch when it was live. Actually insane
lol must be one hell of a shocker when you found out
Im the opposite lol. I only say the last few minutes. Didnt knos their early game was that bad
DL said it best, c9 may have been ahead early but their team comp is strait trash into hec rene azir naut and kaisa all 5 of which can jump in an 1 shot/cc a carry. you cant play caitlyn victor no front line when then enemy has 4 champs who can engage and kaisa to follow up...
@@peterbergeon9001 yep, and this LS guy shitting on TSM's draft more than C9, even tho C9's comp are as shitty if not even shittier than TSM comp lol
cause LS thinks he can be the best drafter lmao
LS "There's no universe where TSM come back into this game " Nemesis "TSM Win actually" LS "Yeah I know, I know, I know"
LS here trying to deny the inevitable.
1/14000605
I like how TSM tilts LS every game. They’re the main characters of League.
impenetrable plot armor all the way
Just following the script bby.
@@pked5688 god's script is inevitable
Main Character of NA; G2 is the main character of League overall
@@123rtXd not really
Dang editor you got them wild upload speeds
he insane
Fr fr
?? 12 hours is a normal time to edit 60 min video to 10
like what
kudos for editor for not takin couple days but cmon, it wasnt like 2-3 hours but the whole day or night dunno the timezone
@@ukaszerber3922 Man what are you talking about. Literally look at any other content creators’ channels. Their videos and content are multiple days behind and they have even less editing than what is included in these videos.
Pay this editor more. He's on top of it.
hey its me ur editor
Give him the salary of whoever writes the titles
Am a couple of days behind on lcs, but thanks to youtube suggestions I guess I can skip this game now
The Editor will actually move to korea! So i think he and LS are close and he gets good pay
The edits were dogshit.. what..?
LS:"NO WORLD DOES AZIR GET TO SHUFFLE EVERYONE"
Me who watched the game live:😏😏😏😏😏😏😏😏😏😏😏😏😏😏😏😏😏😏😏😏😏😏
without dying
And they said Spica's Hecarim was useless but he landed some of the best multi-man offensive ults I've seen in a pro match. It's matches like this that I can't take their analysis too seriously.
@@AaronBeSpeedy you are using results based analysis. Just because the mistakes of his oppones allowed Spica to find openings, it does not mean that Hecarim was a good pick. In fact, herarim was a terrible pick for the following reasons:
1. Lillia & Cait are both very good stand-your-ground champions, and so are great against hard engage.
2. Morgana provides too many tools to neutralise hercarim - he land the E knockback AND the Ult on one target, as Morg will be able to blacksheild. (Especially as, if the target is cc immune, Hercarim is forced to charge past them - which takes him further away from his targets). Furthermore, if Morg can land Q on Hec, will time out his Q stacks and E speed, making him completely useless.
3. One of his targets, Lillia, rushed Hourglass - this completely prevents him from engaging on her (especially as Hec Ult cooldown is long enough for the hourglass to be up before he engages.
4. Another potential target for Hec engages, the Victor, would also be incentivesed to build Hourglass if Hecarim was to start engaging on him.
If Hecarim catches someone out, but they have hourglass, then engaging on them ints the teamfight - if he misses a Q and wastes his E, he wont have them for wayyyy too long - the Q cooldown is only short if he hits them consecutively.
@@serbestianmilo1477 I understand that the pick was terrible and I didn't say anything about it being a good pick. The misplays and poor positioning allowed the terrible, useless pick to have an impact in a match it shouldn't have.
@@serbestianmilo1477 You know you can't do analysis of something that doesn't happen right? What you're doing now is just conjecture to what should've happened based on way too many broad criterias. Hecarim's fear is AOE, Morgana's shield is for one person, this is simple math, and you have pretty much all of TSM comp as gap closers. Morgana's kit in the end will neutralise one person, and the rest of the CC the team has is dependent on positioning which is countered by high mobility and fast engages, not to mention they don't have any means of engage themselves, they just wait for TSM to engage and live in fear to not be mispositioned or you're just bursted out and CCed, this is also a problem in facechecking and map control. Mid and early game is not full of 5v5s but little skirimishes and pickoffs that TSM's comp excell in.
If Hecarim this game is "turbouseless," I'd love to see useful. Spica didn't die once after the top dive in the early game
spica trolled so hard all early game did well mid game tho
They should leave the lcs and start pulling bank heists cause they only know how to commit robbery
True
Not really...tsm had a better draft from the start
@@rajbirsingh6418 in what way is their draft better?
@@rajbirsingh6418 imo Damwon V Damwon, C9's draft wins, especially with that early game, C9 played like shit and TSM played really well into the mid/late game. Morg turbo'd the fight against naut in top and got caught with a hook forcing a Blackshield and then naut just R cait. It literally is just C9 hard miss playing. Also due to there being no front liners much higher chance to fuck it up.
@@imnoncreative1233 well first of all they had 0 tanks and 5 ranged Champs... so all TSM needed to do was engage and they would just win with brute force... second of all Fudge is terrible and he can't play weak side so that messed them up... Jungle was irrelevant after the first 9 min of the game for C9 and Perkz is just inting on viktor... the one good pick was Cat but thats cuz they got to counter it and their morg pick was trash since she was useless after the first 10 min of the game... Renekton hard scales Gnar with resources... Kai'sa hard scales Cat hard... and POE got his best control mage and shit on Perkz (11 mil btw) and sowrd art won TSM the game by finding picks while morg was completely useless
Why does everyone always forget about TSM's Trap Card 'Counter Baron'?
There was so much focus on blaber's lead over spica early, but no one was looking at how much Huni dumpstered over fudge.
To be fair, it was more so the dive that got huni ahead rather than huni actually outplaying fudge.
And jng diff should definitely be more impactful than top diff
@@haugi357 late game, he was still 100cs down, at that point if he was just less behind gnar gives much more value thank renekton but fudge is just such a bad player
Camera man bias. Only wants to watch jungle and bot.
@@meow-meow-beans you obviously dont know how top lane works... once he dies to the dive top he goes a lvl or two down and he can never sideline vs the renekton again, making him lose even more cs...
@@bozcy8791 It's not "how top lane works". It's just Fudge is a really shitty player.
its interesting to see the contrast in thought process between ls nem and doublelift meteos on this game where DL Meteos thought even after that early game TSMs draft was so much better they were in it as C9 had no front line (other things to but more that every champ was just dead on all ins)
maybe they also agreed on the sheildbow thing and not galeforce first but they brougfht up that C9 seems obsessed with these no frontline comps and zven is kinda meh on cait not bad but doesnt punish like you need to but with no meatball out front so cait can get autos off etc. games just hella hard. i would lean towards agreeing with DL meteos but i dont watch LEC korea etc. which are clearly the better regions so maybe it just holds true for NA play where positioning is always a back breaking issue?
Yea I saw that too double lift and metoes a lot more laid back. They have their opinions. But that don’t get but hurt if they are wrong about it.
@@diffuusio4852 Cait is only an obsession with western teams. LCK/LPL ain't touching it and they have far better ADCs.
Meteos and Doubleift co stream seemed to be more accurate analysis and prediction based on game knowledge. What they predicted really happened 25 mins later
probably because they are actual players with experience while LS and friends watch the game from a AI vs AI lens
Yeah that's what I thought too while watching this. Those guys understood both how the teams and players think as well as how the drafts would work. Also didn't help Perkz had a terrible game
@@TimoCruz177 True not like nemesis used to be fnatic midlaner or crownie used to be SK ADC wich got recently put in for vitality also true that micky who joined later is not on the best team in EU right now said the same exact stuff they are saying. they are all not real players
its funny, they have all this experience and still see the game as this perfect chest match played by AI. in a game shit happens and not aways the better draft wins.
@@TimoCruz177 Yes but If the mistakes are so bad, that the rest of the world is making fun about NA, how can you be this much in denial sit there and be like.This is fine they are just stupid.No they are not it has nothing to do with perfect game of chess or playing the game perfect. Draft is giving you an edge over the enemy, and from time to time like it is in this case, the edge is so huge that is should be almost impossible to loose. That is only if you are not from NA and somehow still manage to loose. Even C9 them self confirmed later that their draft was way better but they just played terrible and made terrible piss low mistakes. That better teams like DWK like G2 like GenG or whoever wouldve not made. How can you sit here looking at all these people who do not always agree either with LS or nemesis and say YEP they are wrong because C9 lost the game.C9 lost cause they played like shit not because they are wrong lol ?
So now I wrote an essay noone gonna read, and noone cares about :)
I like how they seem so confident that tsm will lose literally from champ select n then slowly eat their words as the game goes on, oof
Shit got quiet real fast
They were just straight wrong about the comp, doublelift and meteos co-streamed and both HEAVILY favored TSM's comp and those two guys have waaaayy more experience and knowledge.
@@chili24137 ye doublelift who got solo killed 3 times by perkz and miky who played noct fiddle blind pick botlane vs xayah rakan. Mikyx and other g2 players claimed c9 draft is better. Meteos was always super bad and doublelift never got out of groups at worlds for a reason. He has mechanics which is enough for na but lacks in iq
@@evajohansson2914 Ohhh, you didn't watch the game with dl and meteos commentary, go back and watch the game with their commentary and think about it. Then you'll understand.
I mean, C9 did give TSM chances to come back into the game (Specially that top fight) but I think it's clear that TSM's comp was not nearly as shit as they said it was. LS something looks at these things too much in a vacuum. C9 have no frontline, so the longer the game went, the harder it was for them to teamfight (Specially with mountain drakes for TSM) it was entirely up to Blaber to pull of an insane ulti for Zven yo be able to do damage. Whereas TSM played their comp pretty well, finding engages with Naut+Heca+Kaisa and Renek while Azir (PoE's best champion) dealt damage from behind. You have to look at these things from the point of view of comfort and ability to pull off their comps. These guys analyse this as if they were watching LPL's ir LCK's best teams. The ONLY western team they can judge like that is G2, because they're so far above everyone else un terms of talent and decisionmaking. Specially coming from Nemesis and Crownshot, who are very good players, but have made many mistakes as bad as the ones C9 made this game
Isn’t the fact that they’re so reliant on comfort picks and individual ability, rather than practicing the execution of comps that provide a significant advantage when executed well, one of the biggest problems of NA? It’s like in TCGs, you can get away with winning using a lower tier or even janky deck at your local store if you know the ins and outs, but if you’re participating at a tournament you’re putting yourself at a significant disadvantage against the top tier meta decks if your deck has exploitable weaknesses. If we’re really wanting NA to show up internationally, should we be settling for these kinds of games?
@@jag8897 no because anyone who does well at worlds PLAYS THEIR OWN GAME. Like suning, g2, fpx, albus nox luna, VIT, misfits. They either play their own style or have their own version of the meta. come on man how do people not know this lesson already. Also don't compare complex games like league of legends to TCGs where power creep exists where certain cards become unplayable. You can literally play any champion or style in league of legends as long as you know how to properly pull it off.
@@jag8897 that depends. NA biggest issue internationally isn't reliance on comfort but rather skill gaps, inferior soloq culture and infrastructure, among others. FPX won worlds using one style they felt very comfortable in, and really knew how to execute, against an arguably more ir equally as talented G2 (who for years now have been able to play multiple styles and are the most talented western team ever) who simply didn't know how to handle it.
The problem is that all these streamers are just so much into this "NA is thrash" diatribe because it makes them popular that it just goes to lame extremes, like this case. For example, bypassing some obvious skill gaps compared to other regions, I think it's possitive teams are way more proactive and willing to make Smart plays than previous years. There's no longer a TL smashing everybody with a slow methodic gamestyle or a C9 shitting on everybody just because the rest is so thrash. It's a process, and being able to analyse this things is better for the overall development of the league, than just watching a game complaining from a position of self-entitled superiority while acting like a victim. That's probably one of the reasons he hasn't been able to be a succesful coach
@@Darkstormsun9865 The problem with this logic is that you are only able to start doing that when you reach a higher level of play. You can’t start playing weird off meta comfort without having a basic understanding of draft composition, which is what NA severely lacks. Or you can, but the issue with this is you require a much higher level of mechanical skill or a better understanding of macro, which is something NA severely lacks when compared to other regions. Sure it works within the bubble, but this shit isn’t going to provide good showings at worlds. Other regions playing their own game and finding good results does not devalue the merit found with finding at least one advantage by drafting better (or even figuring out better macro). That’s one thing that all regions are still working on, and if NA could do that, they’d have a better chance than trying to go head to head in another area they are vastly outclassed in
@@jag8897 so you think albus nox Luna is higher lvl play or misfits or VIT? You contradicted yourself. If we are so lacking in comparison to other regions why not walk our own way instead of trying to play catch up. That is what EU did. They found their own way and mastered it to the core so much so that g2 can take down skt. Same with China, they finally stopped trying to copy Korea that they created a faster pace meta and when the game finally supported their play style they became the new kings for a bit.
Dude you always ended up eating your own words, love it
Doublelift and Meteos were right. The game played out exactly as they said it would. How is 5 ranged supposed to play fights or facecheck anything?
@@valiantthief5808 you have morgana to do that and a 3k gold lead at 10 with your jg 3 lvl ahead also playing fights shouldnt be that hard with so much kite tools and also having gnar + lillia sleep
@@valiantthief5808 The point of the comp is that you simply don't need to do anything of that sort. C9 just made some big mistakes and TSM were outplaying them on a tactical level. It seems more like C9 knows that the comp is good, but doesn't understand how to play it.
The top fight should never have happened, there was no reason to be hitting turrets at that part of the game.
@@valiantthief5808 you have Viktor E, Lilia E, Cait traps, Morgana Q, wards. You don't need to facechek to check a brush
@@romankarabekov7723 yeah... we saw how well that worked at baron eh? lmfao love when people regurgitate illegitimate logic.
I turned off the game and thought it would be wild if TSM came back and I'd probably be sad if I missed it. Whelp.
why ar eu sad about missing a misserable game form both?
@@iFParasit it was a good game NA wise
@@iFParasit Honestly it's just fomo. I'm looking for anything that makes me feel alive.
Lmao that would be me for sure, glad I came in right before the first team fight top side oblivious of what happened early on
Take a shot every time LS complains about a team comp....or complains in general...goodluck
liver failure
But I like living...
It's almost as if it's his job
@@liam3491 job to complain?
@@peytonratliff3632 When you see what is going wrong and it's happened for years while other regions have erradicated such errors, it's pretty hard to say anything positive.
C9 had such a huge advantage early, it seamed like there was no way for TSM to comeback... and they managed to massively throw it. Perkz just perma inted and Fudge was... disappointing.
I guess it was just an off day for Perkz...
He’s had like 3 games this split where he just runs it down
Perkz played terrible however people don’t talk about fudge or Blaber. Blaber inted two important fights. Perkz inted two important plays and fudge inted bot which lost them drake. So basically all of c9 played terrible. I think it’s safe to say that they were giga tilted
@@6666-l5g yeah c9 gets way cocky A lot of summer spilt last year and the last 2 game’s in spring spilt
@@6666-l5g Blaber inted two fights because they basically had no way to engage and 5 ranged team follow up damage was too late. Perkz just inted in fights by simple mispositioning.
@@6666-l5g to add into Abdalla’s point C9 were only first to the objective for the first two drags and the baron. They couldn’t get to anything else first.
You actually have no idea if you thought TSM got outdrafted here
agreed. I'm genuinely wondering if LS deliberately goes against the grain just for the sake of being different. How can he say hecarim was useless this game lol?
Or if you look around the world in any other region TSM'2s comp is out drafted but considering this is NA draft means fuck all in the worst major region
@@sayken7121 saltness at its best. that's how, dude can barely speak
@@lmco5690 i mean yea ig if c9 just plays it better they should win. but thats ONLY if they play better. in terms flexibility, c9 had close to none. they needed to have 5k+ gold lead consistently, and any lead below that is basically even. you can see it in game. ONE blunder in the top lane basically just fucked c9 over so bad that it didnt matter if they were up or not. they needed to be massively ahead, and i believe that even top teams in the world would think twice about drafting a comp that limits you that much.
Aw they cut Nemesis' Bar joke that came after the "TSM walked into counter, after counter, after counter"
It was an L for sure tbh
do you remember what it was?
So they walked into a bar uhhh?
Lillia just did nothing with her lead, hecarim was more active despite being way behind
Building moonstone says a lot about blabber. There is a reason reapered always had to do a brain check with blabber.
@@Gurpreet-sv5zg if you think lillia should go damage when they have viktor as the midlane and all C9 have to do to win is help cait viktor survive then you're actually ill. You do know that liandry doesn't stack and viktor and lillia will always be hitting the same targets right?
@@futurebeyond3043 LS stan #13321 I presume? We already have the numbers from Phreak. We also have the numbers in LPL/LCK that are overwhelming have shifted Lillia build to the double burn build now.
Last 20 LCK games: Liandry.
Last 20 LPL games: 18/20 Liandry. 1/20 Night Harvester. 1/20 Moonstone
Lillia has an overwhelming advantage over hecarim. Building moonstone has to be something only a failed LCK challenger coach could think of. Your comp has all in with the zero front line comp that is looking to poke off TSM before the fight actually starts. Due to how shit C9 comp is they have no reliable front line. No one can poke/harass as they need a mega gnar to function. Hell, C9 comp can't even function with a 4 man team if gnar ever splits. They need to all in on the poke and the double burn lillia is the best way to maximize the identity of C9 mediocre comp. Every team fight we saw what happened. Lillia went in to Q and immediately got turned on > zhonya > died. Moonstone great idea from a low elo LS stan.
Can't wait for the next rebuttal where "if better teams play this comp" but no one in LCK/LPL has ever build this garbage comp in S11. Hell, if I am correct no one in LCK or LPL has played caitlyn this season.
@@Gurpreet-sv5zg yea lets just see lillia and viktor stack their liandrys on the same target and go run your numbers. Keep running numbers in a vacuum cause I mean that's clearly how the game works. Kinda feel bad for how much time you go through researching stuff like this and you forget the basic principle that viktor is going liandry this game, and since liandry doesn't stack lillia should opt for either everfrost for peeling or moonstone for sustain.
Also appeal to authority is not a good way to go about things from an analytical standpoint. The phreak numbers I do agree with since he went and done the math, but now you go do the math of how much value lillia loses from building liandry when viktor already has liandry and they always hit the same targets. I will assure you you'll either go through the math reach the conclusion that liandry is not the best mythic to go here, or not even bother and drown in your own echo chamber filled with copium
@@futurebeyond3043 You would think the LS puppet would use their own words to explain why an itemization was better in this situation. You basically are deflecting the argument, regurgitating the same point, and then try to shift the goal post so you think your point has any merit. I get it. You can't ramble a coherent point so this is the best case scenario for yourself. It's okay. The research took 1 minute if that helps you feel better. Your whole point is that liandry doesn't stack. That's fine. C9 still built an identity where they need to poke TSM off before the fight starts off walking into them. If C9 cannot do this they will not win any of these team fights. Love how you somehow think viktor with no front line is going to get reliable poke off (he didn't). Appeal to authority seems like the LS route. I am just showing that better players are prioritizing liandry on lillia. I am also seeing lillia and viktor both played with liandrys as well. This isn't an appeal to authority. This is just evidence that supports my notion. I don't think you even argued anything. All you did was go do the math yourself but you didn't illustrate anything. Why is moonstone better for C9 comp? Why are you always insinuating that viktor/lillia are both able to hit the same target? We saw with C9 comp that they were unable to do so. Copium? This isn't twitch chat. You have to move on from these phases in your life. Not sure applying it on youtube is healthy at all.
I can't believe LS likes the comp with cait and vik with no frontline more. How do they hit targets without getting dove? If they fall behind at all they can't face check anything and the game is over.
Dl and meteos said the same thing on stream as you. I was curious why there was no love on the tsm draft from ls?
There is a front line with the gnar it is just unreliable. I don't get why the gnar is so popular in pro play since the reason you want him is his mega gnar form for that engage but it is so coin-flippy and unreliable that I don't think it is worth picking.
because LS hates any form of engage or proactive play.
unless you're full poke from half a screen away and is just perma freezing waves, he will say your comp is trash and you should lose the game.
10:30 If this was the decision that decided the game, I guess the 5 dozen other times you said someone solo-lost the game and it's impossible for anything else to happen was bullshit. A broken clock is right twice a day.
I mean LS is saying that Fudge just wanted to base and not tp so he lost C9 the game, when Fudge is literally tp-ing in that video so like he could say TSM did a good job picking yone mid and that is why they won and it would be as accurate
"they need to protect caitlyn"
with what my guy
With their 1 hp lift bars.
I guess Morgana E is not a thing to you.
@@BotlaneCEO i guess renek w is not a thing to you.
@@BotlaneCEO 1 Morgana E vs an entire team
@@BotlaneCEO so morgana e is supposed to stop hourse diving it naut hook and a giant lizard diving on top of him
Getting flashbacks from C9's run from last year
Is more like flashback from every single 1st place team in regular season in every single LCS season. They just love the excuse "We were just trying new picks" or things like that and then they get shit on in Playoffs/Worlds. As a TSM fan at some point I just accepted that and learn to just live with it KEKW
"Pentakills are rare" he says as there were like 5 pentakills this season in NA
yeah 5 pentas out of how many games already? still rare
Trash players tend to die easier
@@neildelossantos7204 there are less in entire seasons. So 5 in one split is a lot.
@@Darkstormsun9865 There have been 75 games played in NA so far, this season. Assuming the pentas were all in separate games, that still leaves 70 games with 0 pentas, which is a VAST majority of the games. Also, 5 out of 75 is 6.67%. That's pretty rare, I'd say.
We need the heart BPM counter back!!!
TSM: Call the ambulance. But not for me!
Imagine listening to LS... just don't
Just relieved he quit casting in lck.
@@misterjaeger6197 He never quit, actually. He was in negotiations to return for the split but after joining T1 as a content creator, Riot stopped talking to him. This is what he said on stream a few days ago, at least.
ngl the heart from LS on this comment is a power move lol
Who cares if they "counter" every lane, which Huni kinda owned top lane, C9 couldnt face check a single bush without getting 1 tapped during mid-late game. Coach gap.
A plat 3 top laner would "own" Fudge man
Dude hasn't won a single lane this split and his team is in first
Gnar isnt a counter into the lizard anyways
@@ziegfeld4131 renekton can't get anywhere near gnar if it plays out correctly...
your reasoning is akin to "things didnt go well hence it was a bad idea". Result-based analysis is fine when you do it on a 100 observation sample, not 1. If anything, i'd argue the problem was they put Fudge on a non-brainless champ where you don't have a frontline if Gnar can't manage the rage bar well.
Double lift said the complete opposite of what ls mentions in draft. C9 has no frontline do even if they pull ahead tsm has a stronger frontline and one shot comp so difficult to predict
and the tilt proof honor goes to Spica
That suicide in toplane was definitely tilt
@@abdallaosama574 was actually kinda worth gnar missed a huge wave of cs and exp, renek got a huge lead out of it
@@mccm2442 Yeah but it really wasn't necessary and avoidable by simple shuffle of turret aggro, this should be an easy dive and Spica was definitely tilted, Idk why a lot of people say otherwise.
@@abdallaosama574 hmmm yeah maybe, i think with vulcan there there was a good chance it would have been a 1 for 1 anyway if they swapped tower aggro
@@mccm2442 Vulcan was quite far and he could've rooted anyone else and they'd still die. it wasn't a good scenario for the dive overall even Swordart got the kill in the end.
I mean even with the hecarim not being able to play the game for the first ten minutes, the c9 draft is troll as fuck in my opinion. How are you ever supposed to fight against renekton, hecarim, and nautilus with gnar as your only frontline. Not to mention it’s fudge playing him and he’s volatile at best. I understand the idea that the lanes were counter picked, but I disagree with the analysis that the triple front line comp can’t walk into lillia Morgana. If they approach from two angles you’re boned. Caitlyn and viktor are never going to be able to shred a frontline fast enough to win any fights mid game. At 5-6 items maybe but kaisa will be too strong at that point for that to matter. 4 squishies are never going to beat an all in comp unless the skill difference is astronomical.
Ideally the only time they fight 5v5 is Baron and Dragon. In both spots you just have Viktor W block one side and Caitlyn traps block the other and there's 0 entry. If they force through Lillia sleeps them all. TSMs comp isn't as tanky as you think if Zven just went LDR instead of BT. I don't think this game was an example of how this match up should play out a majority of the time. It literally felt like an off game for C9. Just watch baron fight when Azir goes for shuffle and Zven flashes into it
Last worlds, NA drafted comfort into three losing lanes, and then their jungler couldn't play the game at all vs the top teams, we caught a glimpse of that this game. If you think top teams come worlds will int like all of C9 did(the top lane play where Perkz gave shutdown and Cait died when everyone else was resetting), I don't know what to tell you. Doublelift only thinks C9 draft is losing because from an adc perspective, he sees all the champs that go in and thinks, "wow I am scared", in reality if you play well and play around your jungler, the enemy jungler CANT PLAY THE GAME. Seriously, if you want an example of this, just watch the Twitch Rakan vs Draven game from last worlds, that game is perfect example why drafting comfort is so fucking stupid.
@@gmnr1336 Spica only couldn't play because the early game was pretty disastrous. It had very literally nothing to do with losing lane matchups and Blabber and the rest of C9 did almost nothing after getting a huge early lead to punish him. And, in reality, Gnar vs Renekton is a pretty even and very volatile matchup. It is far from a counter pick. Azir vs Viktor is Viktor sided but both are scaling champs who can't really do much in the 1v1 early. Cait/Morg vs Kai'sa/Naut was the only hard countered lane, and in the end, that doesn't matter because the Kai'sa wasn't in that much danger during lane AND Kai'sa/Naut outscales super hard. If Kai'sa ever gets on top of Cait, she just dies instantly. Cait's only advantage is positioning and range, but when you have a renekton, hecarim and nautilus diving at you, that loses relevance very quickly. In reality, C9's draft probably is better, but is also very hard to execute against a full dive comp like TSM's.
@@travisv518 Losing lane matchups means that he has 0 agency over what he gets to do. When every lane is winning AND out scales inaction is winning. Hecarim is a solo queue pick that thrives on chaos and had C9 been playing like they normally do he would have been down 3 levels the entire game.
@@travisv518 YES, C9 played badly after they got the lead, that’s the point
LS at the end of the stream TUV will upload within few hours
it will be 100T or CLG or DIG
TUV UPLOADS THE c9 GAME monkaW
Dont understand ls saying tsm lost draft, no frontline for cait with a full dive comp hecarim renek kaisa naut lilia sleep is not gonna save him same as a single morg e. Also its not a comp c9 is comfortable on and draft very poorly around cait. Dl had some great insight with meteos about it
oh yea, the guy that went 0-6 and embarrassed NA internationally and who was also kicked from TL for playing shit. Yes
@@WarringFighter such a short sighted comment, sad. The guy knows how comps should play out after playing for so long doesnt matter international dissapointment. If you dont like the opinion thats fine but pls get a better comeback argument
yeah the DL straem is imo the best if you dont want the official stram. his insights as a pro player gives a lot more nuanced insights in decisions and stuff. i enjoy LS super analytical and meta approach but DL and in that case Meteos find a balance of like yeah its technically not the idea pick but gives circumstance blah blah it makes sense.
@@WarringFighter no need to attack the person because mentioning the past is irrelevant. instead, just attack the argument not the person. ur comment is literally 0 iq.
@@Sachin-me6ul i think tsm dove fudge 1 for 1 where spica also died and then c9 attemted one dive but it amounted to nothing. I think that was it
Imagine thinking that tsm draft is bad and not tl's especially since every pro thinks otherwise
Welcome to NA, where the draft is made up and the gold doesn't matter.
TBH, TSM have the draft advantage from the very beginning.
I need someone to explain to me how C9 doesn’t lose once the game hits mid game. TSM comp is fucking amazing into C9s comp.
You just cant give PoE his Azir. He has 100% winrate on azir this split. What's even worse, they didnt even ban it in second ban phase.
I watched LS the entirety of last season and I see he is still regurgitating his same exact notions. This game specifically when Hec was down 3 levels and managed to impact the game somehow "he still does nothing this game" maybe its a player thing and not a champion thing but the things he says are just consistently wrong but chooses to ignore those times and point at the moments he is correct.
It’s because NA is a weaker region and in stronger regions like LPL and LCK c9s comp wins 7/10 times (watch LCK or LPL gameplay it looks completely different from NA). So 100% it’s a player thing as c9 completely threw that game. And LS even mentioned his predictions for NA are always wrong as they make mistakes top regions never make, and don’t hold leads like top teams such as damwon would.
Notice how much quieter he got near the end. He knew how wrong he was and couldn’t own up to it so he said less
@@ryankim1668 Just based on your comment I'm going to say you have never watched LPL in your life and haven't watched LCK in the past ~2 months comps LS would say are trash are consistently played like every day.
@@ryankim1668 If comps like TSMs would lose 7/10 times in other regions, Kai'sa and Renekton wouldn't be nearly as high prio as they have been all split in literally every major region.
HEY EDITOR OR WHOEVER DOES THESE YT TITLES: pls include #LS as one of your hashtags, it helps the algorithm and will help have all of LS's videos under one hashtag instead of split up among a bunch of hashtags.
I agree with this, I see larger youtubers do it all the time
LS yes this will hurt you a lot.... BUT i truly believe that the Ancient Reptile hardcarried this one *Pepepains*
I find it interesting how different LS/lemon and DL/Meteos were in terms of their view of the draft this game. Typically there are a lot of similarities between the two, but seeing how there’s no frontline for C9 it would have been nice to see a real tank top or some kind of frontline in the draft. Yes there were definite misplays, but it does show what not having a frontline does.
"hecarim is turbo useless" "hecarim is just not doing much"
okay biased cast, can you look at the score board and see his build? his kda?
He's a huge frontline peeling his carries and engaging when necessary with azir...only useless thing I see here is lillia with her 3 levels gap for the first 15 minutes and ended the game behind despite his entire team covering defending his jungle kingdom.
Hecarim at 8:58 was 3/3/10 a full level ahead
Lilia at the same timestamp was 0/3/4
but yeah, hecarim full tank with 3 mountain drake is turbo useless and isn't doing anything xd
+ the teamfight where Poe ulted 3 people, the heca ult in top of it was amazing, but whatever they are trolling fr
This game was painful to watch live...
Crazy to see how much Doubblelift says TSM won draft so hard and then to see LS says they lost it so bad...
Watching LS without cringing about his toxicity is hard
Can't take LS seriously anymore
C9 just need a tank top and they win, just need someone to facecheck and peel your backlane to survive the initial hecarim ult and re engage the figth from there with viktor + lilia and cait long range. But TSM just play better
Man I can't even imagine any top team from the top 3 regions LCK LPL and LEC throwing a game with such a huge lead. NA is indeed something else.
If Draft was so lopsided to C9, TSM wouldn't have been able to come back :|
Unless C9 plays so bad that draft doesn't matter( which they did)
@@grantadams7563 Or - and it may be hard to believe - Huni > Fudge. Mid lane was even (don't give PoE Azir) and bot lane got outplayed. Both can be true. Literally gave comfort to every TSM player. Arguably their best champs of 2021.
@@KaptainKuddly But c9 still got ahead. It was their game to throw and they did.
Doublelift: Outdrafted by TSM
LS: TSM draft is trash
love watching co-streams
TSM winning the game doesn't mean DL was right though
@@rayaqin cant see that I said DL was right or wrong.
@@yvil2433 can't see me claiming that you did
@@rayaqin You said "though", so it implies you wanted to counter his claim
@@rmcpedro though is targeted at how the game ended, which would lead most people to automatically lean towards DL's analysis
I think LS's observations about the draft are all valid, but they tend to assume the "DMW vs DMW" scenario where both teams are playing their champions to maximum excellence. Yes, Gnar should lane counter renekton and provide huge teamfight/side lane pressure but it's not just Gnar, it's Fudge''s Gnar. observing the draft you can clearly see TSM wanting to win through top - banning Gragas (which is one of the only champs i've seen Fudge really shine) and even after that disaster of an early game they went through with their plan, which again, relied a lot on Solo's ability to hold his own against a very fed cait-morgana combo while dodging Blaber's ganks (i think he also is a lot at fault here for not punishing Solo+Swordart) . They knew C9's comp relied so much on Gnar and they made sure it was heavily shut down. From whatt i've seen, Fudge is not really proactive even with a lead, when he's behind it's even worse.
I love how hard LS hating on TSM comp. Doublelift and Meteos both heavily favored TSM's comp, interesting.
i think the serious c9 problem is actually blaber sure he appears good but is chaotic pathing and probably 0 comms behind what he does makes the team play like headless chickens
I like how in Dlift strem he said there is no way C9 win they have no tank only mid range champ and how ls said there is no way tsm win they get counter on everylane and can(t handle lilia everyone think they know everyting it's kind of funny and sad :)
3:00
I find amazing how TSM is learning to dive like the brazilians team do. My region is finally been used as example for others... (:
We call this technique as: 'Standard Brazilian Dive'
And at 02:43... Everyone knew tsm would win... And that I'd lose my damn prediction points!
If anyone watched double lifts stream its so weird how opposite each felt on the draft. Double lift said tsm had a way better draft and said C9 could never engage on them with no tank. And as the game went on they couldn’t. I’m shocked 3 high level individuals like nemesis, LS, and DL have such different opinions on basic things like draft. I feel double lift was the one who was right this time since it all worked out the way he said, but still shocks me. I thought everyone would feel about the same on drafts and how comps work, but it seems it’s a big difference from person to person. New to the game btw so be nice lads.
So I’m going to explain results based analysis, because (almost impressively) some people in this chat are slower than I am. Results based analysis is a logical fallacy where the end is used to post-justify the means. For example, if I lose lane to Katarina as Akali and say it is a bad matchup that is results based analysis at it’s finest. The reality is that I’m just a feeder, Akali is still winning against Katarina that doesn’t change just because I lost that lane.
yeah,.. but tsm draft was still better
Yea... but people were making these points before the game concluded. Doublelift immediately pointed out that he didn’t like the C9 comp on costream. Interestingly, his criticism focused how he expected Zven and Vulcan to play the matchup, which is something that I think a lot of us tend to miss when we talk matchups. Maybe C9 comp is fine in a vacuum, but not when C9 actually plays it. It was sad to see how LS lost his mind on stream after this. It’s ok to be wrong.
The chat after this was so.... Jesus. We love you LS don't forget that
it was actually pretty exciting to finally see huni pick a big champ like renekton though
Kaisa and hec is the two champs that must be first picked if not banned in LPL. Azir gives high pressure to Victor early game and Renekton is picked for the 8 minute rift herald fight. I guess LS really don’t know anything about other regions’ meta or pick and always consider something he has never seen bad.
Draft thoughts from the C9 perspective:
Gnar and Victor are bad picks.
Orianna and Pantheon are bad bans.
Pick Lulu or Karma R3 to flex support/top.
Pick Malphite/Leona/Shen/2nd Enchanter Support R4
Change Pantheon and Orianna bans to TF/Ryze and Sylas.
Options for R5:
Orianna (5v5)
TF/Ryze (whichever wasnt banned to snowball botlane)
Zoe (long range poke with Katelyn)
[I dont actually play league, just watch LS and lolEsports regions so feel free to share your opinions where I could be wrong or the choice doesnt work]
Spica and TSM's mental after that early game is actually insane tho imagine not mentally booming I would FF
Daaamn. After saying there's no world where renekton and hecarim can go in without dying because of Lilia and Vik yet TSM just goes "brrt yolo we goin in bois". Heck, even POE and Lost just going in. Did TSM really lost draft here or they're just not afraid to pull the trigger?
Nope, LS was just 100% wrong on this one. If C9 had literally any form of somewhat tanks frontline TSM was toast, but since all 5 C9 champs were squishy, if TSM committed to the fight in true LPL style, C9 loses the fight. Watch the vod on twitch, he gets aggressively defensive about why he’s right about his analysis of the draft but as the game goes on he get quieter and quieter because he realizes that he was wrong and that Doublelift and Meteos were correct in their analysis
Joseph is a DL donkey fanboy. If you watched the game you will notice fudge and fkin perkz dying randomly before every major objective. Actually zero brain
@@WarringFighter the entire game showed why LS was wrong to immediately dismiss DL/Meteos’s view on the draft, it’s okay to disagree and have different opinions but when you rage about a different opinion then have an entire game show you why the other viewpoint was entirely valid and instead of admit they had merit, instead gets quiet and tilts on stream and never acknowledges it
@@josephmuir4189 Just because 1 team misplayed at almost every opportunity doesn't invalidate the facts.
@@josephmuir4189 But thats the problem, it was fanboys like you that started attacking AFTER the game, and the main argument doublelift made about cait's vulnerability was never a thing, cait only got dove once when the tide had already turned. Why do you people ignore all the times c9 was getting caught constantly? You talk about merit, when the dl's main point didnt even manifest in the game. To add oil to the fire, the stream had people from doublelift's stream harassing him, and you're just saying he "tilted on stream" when it was literally people like yourself raiding the stream in the first place
It’s interesting to see the different opinions from other people like doublelift who instead said that tsm drafted really well with 3 tanks and Azir. LS favoured c9s draft but doublelift favoured tsms draft
Imagine it was R4 Sion/Malphite/Poppy instead. You just won the game, you even get to choose _how_ you want to counter their mono-engage comp and still save the R5 for mid counter. And you don't even have to use your brain in order to do so.
...yea, i guess this is a no world game
TSM, did not loose draft TSM won draft hard, it didnt matter as soon as mid game came, TSM had a better comp and thats why Cloud9 lost!
With any other team other than TSM this draft would have been lost. But you cant ignore the value of comfort and pocket picks. POE on Azir is almost unbeatable. Giving Kai'Sa to Lost is not ideal either. C9's botlane might have won with all the turret plates but what they didnt manage is to stop Kai'Sa from farming. Losts CS numbers were still too high desite "losing" the lane that hard. Also, Lillia is such an overrated champ. Literally 4v5 after lvl 6 this game.
C9 lost because they're a bad team as Mikyx said.
@@NeverEverClever C9, had no front line, u just walk in to azir with tsm great front line. The comp was just lost from the beginning. TSM knew early would be tough but they knew they will win later.
@@funnynotfunny6984 Gnar is normally a good frontline. Not with Fudge and being that far behind though. Not a draft issue here
It's weird the amount of times LS calls a draft edge and then the team with the edge loses. Do people just play that differently then how he imagines the game? I think so.
draft picks are important in pro plays, but at the end of the day if the team with the better drafts lose, that’s on how poor they played/maintain their edge
You should almost always take what LS is saying with the caveat that it only matters if the teams are playing optimally. The advantage draft gives you is rendered useless very quick if the better comp makes more mistakes. So while at face value most of the games with large comp edges should be decided at champ select, the volatile nature of LCS (and the human element of competitive sports/games in general) throws all certainty out the window.
today on "best of might as well be na soloq" : how hard can you throw, featuring c9
that transition with the hecarim 6:18 tho
My God perks and fudge just ran it so hard. I don't know what blaber and bot could do if teammates run it so hard.
Its not like Blaber played well either, apart from the early stomping. He essentially did nothing after level 6 and didnt manage to snowball his lead. Poor Sven and Vulcan.
@@NeverEverClever he couldn't perks literally walked into the 2x when they went over vision beforehand and fudge smh
Everyone acting like zven and Vulcan walking way too far up to get engaged on out of position wasn't what allowed that top play to happen in the first place to get tsm into a better position.
That greed without proper set up started them no longer having prio to do anything as the ranged comp with no front line or engage tools. Comps like that one mistake costs the game and that was it. The rest of the team had to react which is never the better choice.
love watching this knowing outcome and ls doesnt...good stuff
It's never impossible in NA
why are so many of his predictions just plain wrong?
Because the region is dogshit and makes no sense whatsoever. You use logic to determine who's going to win, the you predict the exact opposite to be correct in NA.
Both meteos and doublelift were like tsm draft gap because they had no engage and no one could face check once tsm has map control. How do they live when the entire team of tsm dives on you?
I'm pretty sure Perkz's build lost them the game. Didn't opt into zhonyas as a core item, when his main threat was prowlers claw renekton. Even sitting on seekers wouldve changes a lot of the fights. I get it's really hard to take seekers into azir, but zhonyas needed to come out 3rd item at latest.
I love how people say C9 lost draft when the only reason they lost is because Perkz and Fudge got PayPal'd. Like please, look at fudge randomly go down like 20cs to renekton in lane, then fall even further behind after the laning phase and never get relevant again, running it down ontop of that for the rest of the game. Look at perkz get tilted for the rest of the game when everyone decides its time to fight in top lane at 12 mins for... reasons... who knows, maybe they wanted vision control of the gromp and rift herald kekw. Like come on guys, you guys just had to not feed topside and the game was over, they literally had a massive jungle gap not even 10 minutes in. How is that the draft's fault when fight break out randomly and players aren't on the same page. At that 12 minute mark, why did both Fudge and Perkz run straight into a renekton TP with a nautilus right there when caitlyn had practically killed kallista? How is it that the draft? Even if you disagree, and you think its a draft gap, wouldn't you think feeding a renekton and azir kills at that point, allowing them to get gold and objectives for free, like that would make that supposed 'winning draft' practiaclly unplayable at that point? Imagine if they didn't just continuously int at that point, C9 could have gotten (or at least been able to contest) the drakes, and the game wouldn't of just flown out the window. This is not a draft gap, and even if it was this is literally players celebrating they're in NA by playing a URF game, actually ridiculous. Like come on guys, 4th of July is still a while away.
Regardless, I hope to see LS calm down a bit after the stream so we can get back to the normal streams of him being happy whilst simultaneously malding over LCK drafts while we tune out until he goes back onto Kitchen Nightmares. Also really happy that the Slovenian squad was able to hang out for a bit after which really lightened up the stream afterwards, especially mikyx.
Also, seeing as this was like 5 hours ago, really nice work on the editing Tuvshno!
Zven and Vulcan can't be left out, felt like the top lane play where they overextended and killed perkz and gave shutdown was when things got massively skewed for TSM
I agree with that, but I feel like he would of gotten out alive if there wasn't a random call for a fight, or azir just had to commit more resources to kill cait.
Either way though, even if TSM can get through all the stuns and CC of a lillia, morgana and Viktor on a 5v5 at a drake or baron (getting massively chunked by the team after lillia presses either Q or E, followed by an R), its like caitlyn doesn't have a way to reposition. If worse came to worse, she takes cleanse, which nullifies hecraims R engage (if he didn't die through all the stuns and poke by C9), builds galeforce and at worst flashes ontop of that. I get people saying that TSM can win if they run in, but if the fights are played well by teams (so basically if this wasn't in NA), I feel like C9 (or whoever on their draft) can just kite and stun their way to a win, unless there's some unholy flank by renekton or hecraim by the team playing on TSM's side, or if they just don't decide to int in general. Then again, I accept I can just be all wrong on this as well so I'm willing to listen to anyone who can say they can get ontop of C9, cause I also think that C9 could of actually had a better frontline or a higher scaling ADC, but I just don't immediately see it, so I'm open to discussion if anyone wants to. I'm obviously thinking about the situation without taking into account thinking about how good people are relative to others on champs, but I feel like if (in my opinion at the moment), if TSM have to play like Damwon to get through all of that CC then isn't there a way to draft maybe 1 or 2 things differently to make it easier?
Lost man! He's a beast haha love the atitude of this kid
C9 positions weirdly with their comp which loses the game but would have lost because they don't understand how to fight with it/set it up for the most complex of executions (Big Lillia Sleep > Gnar Ult)
It can be said that Fudge was one of the major factors why C9 lost the game, I can't help but notice that LS has some serious animosity towards fudge after their last interview. I guess time will tell if this statement is true or not.
Why are people crying over the comp? Tsm even did a penta. If anyone with eyes on their head watched the game one would come to the conclusion that this game was NOT decided by teamcomp.
NA teams basicly don't respect fog of war and don't think about visualizing a preferable route in teamfights (maybe even just don't think in the first place).
This happens in every game, in smash people always believe the best character is the one the best player uses. But in reality in most relatively good balanced games(also in bad ones) the best player could just win any game/fight with a toothpick of a character tbh.
lmfao this dude is so sad tsm won
Zven is still so good on Caitlyn, man. I hope they don't go away from that pick cause of these last couple games.
Why are hecas running around pressing Q all the time out of combat? I've missed some item/rune upgrade that makes this worthwhile, I'm sure. Someone help me out?
I honestly don't get why LS is so surprised that TSM's draft worked. it's 4 champions who just want to deathball into the enemies, strong engage, strong follow-up. Very on-theme with each other. The only champion who is a bit wonky is the Azir but that's it. And what's so terrible about Gnar top? C9 clearly needed a tank who didn't just fold to Renekton during the laning phase. Gnar is fine.
because the team that is leading NA right now threw a game that they had a better draft with a lead with insanely poor macro positioning
Why did he want TSM to lose so badly? 😂😂😂
I don’t understand how c9 had a better comp. TSM’s comp was so much better they won from behind
Ls showing again that his "knowledge" is so overated.
What a ton of bs.
Dl actually said everything that would happen from the start : c9 gets outscaled and cant tf. They need to play peefectly to win since they have no front line while tsm comp can accord to fall behind ans has better 5v5 and better scaling.
C9 comp is good only i lannong phase.
C9 couldnt have a better early and they still lost. Defo draft gap
Its because ls is so concentrated on niche "counters" to champions and flames any team that doesnt 500iq counter in champ select. He doesnt take into consideration the human factor in these games. Having a draft that is easier to execute and has fail-safes is much better than a perfect megamind counter draft. It tilts me so hard. Every one of these videos is just ls and friends flaming every decision any team or player makes. Sucks because ls is smart but the flame makes it impossible to sit through.
@@kngcoi3402 I'd not call someone so filled with certitude "smart" .
He can't bare being wrong it is a huge hurdle to progress as a human being on anything.
His take on the draft was clearly wrong and he couldn't admit it.
Spica early game looking like my early game
You are obviously a TSM hater and cant admit that TSM huge outdrafted them . How can you say nautilus and renekton wont get to c9 carries ? Blackshield is for 1 person only and flash is available in this game . Your knowledge about this game and professional drafts makes me throw myself out of the window .
Would this game have been different if cait had bought shieldbow?
TSM is the only team that can actually comeback from a game like this, not saying they always do, but it's kinda "their thing", I remember 1 game in finals vs Immortals, they were 10k behind, nexus almost down and in just 2 tf, the won the game.
What does say to you about the region?
@@Kaozed that skt has literally done the exact same thing to lpl power houses in edg twice in 2016.
It’s so funny. I just watched the Meteos and DLift co-stream and they heavily favored TSM’s comp. They cited C9’s comp inability to deal with all-ins but here LS is saying C9’s comp should have done well against their all in but in-game all TSM did was constantly all in with success... hmmm... LS might be wrong for once LOL.
Or C9 played poorly...but that can't be possible!
4:23 blaber playing with no hands in drake
lol? he smited draken, he survived and actually did good damage as well as soaking hecarim engage. he did fine.
watch the cam.
God, as a c9 fan, this game is just depressing...
C9 may be the ones paying Perkz, but he's actually on TSM.
Have only watched the draft but I think TSM will win with their magic.