RANT: "50/50s" and "Forced 50/50s" Are NOT The Same Thing
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- Опубликовано: 26 ноя 2024
- It seems some people think that the 50/50's found in Tekken 8 have always been there. This is baffling to me but in this video I attempt to break it down.
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Mike, you consistently display amazingly structured arguments
Your ability to get the point across while "dumbing" it down for even the least knowledgeable person, while being as neutral/unbiased as possible, is a true skill many others don't possess
I've only discovered you since T8 , but better late than never
Thank you for the kind words, sir ☝🏾
This is proof that T8 is likely the first fighting game for majority of these players comments on twitter
I think one of the problems with forced 50/50s is the defencer doesnt usually get a high reward for guessing right.
True even punishment (excluding -14 or 15+) Isn't worth it. You can begin to see pros also dropping punishes and letting a couple of things slide. Feels wrong.
yeah cuz if the defender did there'd be consideration whether or not you should engage with the 50/50, decision making.
You get a full punish. What else could you want??
@@Chev1220 Okay what if they do a safe mixup?
@@xaviersanchez3498 Doesn't exist lol. Change your definition of safe to include more than just block frames. If your 50/50 is between a high and a mid, and both are safe on block and I end up guessing right and I duck the high. That high isn't really "safe". Outside of my example most 50/50s that are being forced in Tekken 8 are between low or mid with the exception of Steve's Lion Heart stance which is high or mid. And the high in Lion Heart is not safe as it's a guard break that leaves him open enough for a launch
Easy to pick up characters should never be as strong as drag, as crazy as Akuma was I never had a huge issue since it took alot of practice and time to do the crazy stuff he could do
Facts. The people who constantly cite Akuma as a reason for T7 being bad are low level scrubs who couldnt sidestep Fireballs. The real killer Akuma's were in high ranked and even then they werent doing the ridiculous damage and combos he was capable of because of how difficult his execution was.
@@ATC43I only got death comboed 3 times by akuma and 99% of the other akumas were just fireball and d4 spammers
that is true, I play prob the weakest character in under night and as much as I wish he were stronger, I understand that easy characters should not be that strong, and def not top 1 kind of strong either, that makes the effort> reward ratio completely skewed for the character.
I remember when FightingGM (Probably one of the all-time best Lee players) pointed out T8 was an overly aggressive gamble simulator on twitter and people tried to hit him with all kinds of dumb shit like "o you're just mad you lost in MM or somethin" or "You're just washed" and he ofc pulled up the receipts that he has over a 90% W/R at God of destruction and can still hang with current top performing players in online tournament settings (all while playing to the T8 style). I dont shit on people necessarily for liking T8, but you can put *every tekken game* side by side and T8 stands out the most from the pack. A traditionally legacy favored series deviating so significantly is OF COURSE going to cause uproar amongst the veteran players.
The rule of thumb is when someone's response to your criticism is "you're just mad cos you're losing" the best course of action is to disengage because that person's other a child (and we don't talk to minors) or they're just looking for a participation trophy in the conversation.
@@RealMikeHollow If people attack the person instead of the arguement 100% then they essentially admit the speaker has a valid point. Same with the character/system mechanics in your vid.
Agree. Its over aggressive and favors aggressive play rather than defense
I respect you trying keeping your sanity explaining what a mix up is. I salute you.
I almost lost it 😂
If you're a casual player, they tell you to get good. If you're a pro, they say don't listen to the minority of pros. If you're a newbie, they gaslight you into thinking it's always been a forced casino. If you're a veteran player, they say to take off the rose tinted glasses.
You just can't win against people who refuse to understand
How about this?
If you enjoy the game, tell yourself to stop giving a fuck. At the same time, don't be a dick to those who enjoy the games you don't.
Ah Yes, the horror of talking to those who decide to not act like their lives revolve around the game and they don’t refuse to have fun just for the sake of glazing the previous entry of the series while pointlessly bashing the current game. 1. If a green rank casual is whining about the game, his opinion is not relevant, because he don’t know what he’s talking about, but they are not the ones whining about the game the most. Its usually the people stuck in red ranks who blame the game design for their lack of skill to progress. 2. Pro’s whining are also irrelevant because they only want the game to be balanced around tournaments. They are a minority whether you being sarcastic about that or not. 3. Tekken was always a forced casino, you’re the one gaslighting yourselves into thinking that the current entry to every series is ruining the franchise, just to glaze it when the next one comes out and you have something else to hate. You should take a chill pill and sit less in front of your pc. It can do wonders if you’re not focused on hating something for whatever reason.
@arpadszabo661 You said Tekken has always been a forced casino. Your opinion no longer means anything to me as you have 0 idea what you're talking about. Nothing ever forced you into constant 50/50s like heat
Almost like people are getting tired of whiners. The SF6 community whines about that because of the drive system and perfect parry. This community cries about this game nonstop for reasons that don’t even exist outside your heads. MK community cries about everything since MKX, GG players cry about the new patch. Sparking Zero community whines about that game for whatever reason. Ya’ll spend your half of your lives crying about stupid crap and then i bet you wonder why no one listens to the feedback of a vocal minority at the low subcount channel that was made for whining about everything.
@@stefanjuarez6565 I tell you what, I'll stop whining when Bandai Namco releases a port of older Tekkens for contemporary hardware, replete with decent netplay, so that those of us who want to play them online have a viable means of doing so that doesn't involve faffing about with emulation.
Yeah forced 50/50 in Tekken feels very annoying to face especially when the move has a animation that jails your ass if your reaction is off its not guaranteed but getting hit by those move are just as annoying as the forced 50/50 and yeah gaming got harder because folks are good
Based on GhostFrom's tweet logic, neutral in and of itself could be considered a 50/50. Am I gonna hit you high or low? Just because you can only block high or low doesnt mean that situation is a 50/50.
You can sidestep, hit the guy before he hits you etc. I hope we can all agree that neutral is not a 50/50. There are A LOT of options from neutral, and nothing is being forced in that situation. Great vid Mike.
Thank you, sir ☝🏾
Guilty Gear used to have forced 5 way mix-ups so people complaining about forced 50/50s in Strive are 100% clowns. Conversely, Tekken hasn't really had many forced 50/50s before Tekken 7 so I can understand why the community doesn't like the direction the series is going.
Yea the old school GG's were absolutely wild.
I don't get the point because both aren't fun..
"The games you liked from 10-20 years ago had broken stuff in them so why don't you like it today?"
This is such an overlooked point
I ain't never taking advice from a GGST player bruh 💀💀😭. Nice video btw.
😂😂😂 thank you, bro.
This is why I enjoy playing SF6 the most still too. The thing about Heat is that it's super powerful and can force people into FORCED 50/50s. When it's gone, it's just gone and you just play the game normally after that, there's no punishment to it. In SF6 you can say that Drive Rush forces people into 50/50s which I would agree with, but it's a resource that comes with counterplay. You OR your opponent can force Burnout. In burnout you can't use getup, no drive rush, no OD, no Drive Impact. It forces you to monitor how much you use your resource rather than just having a free forced 50/50 like Tekken. It's messed up too because Tekken is a high damage game, one bad move and you just die. I don't understand how people can't grasp the concept of a 50/50 and a FORCED 50/50
What you're saying is the exact thing I've been feelin when its comes to how heat was implemented. It just feels so damn lazy. You either use it or you don't. Neither me or my opponent have to think as hard about it unless one of us has Powercrush Heat Engager. Once in Heat you just have to keep track of when they decided to pull the trigger and what special gimmick they now have. After that, nothing, zero. They aren't punished for having used it up and they aren't punished for having not used it. Its just like a rage art. Either you use it in a combo or use it when your opponents not paying attention. They just feel so lazy. Atleast with Drive how someone use it tells you something about them and their habits. Heat and Rage Art are combo tools or something you remember to use and if its a power crush something you spam because why not
@alanmosa2849 Well said, I don't think people would mind Heat as much if there was some mechanics or something that could counteract it, they made no counterplay against Heat.
Argueably what made SF6 lame is how big of a role meter plays now.
@blahblahgdp I mean yeah of course, just a different argument. My whole point is how there's counterplay to the Drive system compared to Heat is all, you know?
Let's not forget throw loops to bro one of the most anoyying thing about that game full screen drive rush jab into throw is very much casino like.
Im getting rly sick of the tired defense of this crap. Heat dash +5, crouch mk drive rush, etc. people have a valid complaint about these mechanics and pretending those mechanics existed prior to now is just so disingenuous. Its exhausting reading so many bullshit dismissive takes all the time. “But vega walldive!” Yeah I dont remember anyone saying they liked that but at least it was just one character rather than a whole game mechanic.
thank you!!!
People like to rewrite history. It's hilarious.
I can’t speak on tekken as much. But I know there is no way you are complaining about crMk > DR. It’s not even remotely a big deal. At a high level things like DR > jab, fireball > DR, characters having chain light strings that are just better overall than majority of the casts and throw loops all are bigger issues than crMk > DR… hell 50/50’s are more annoying than crMk > DR in sf6. Don’t wanna be an asshole but that is some below 1400 MR talk.
@user-wy1et9dk9w you're being too nice. You're assuming they even have MR to begin with
This is why I still play Third Strike religiously.
any tips good sir 🙏🙏
@@ri_c_e Shoryukens sf3 primers are a great place to learn more about the game ❤
I miss 3rd Strike, used to bang Online Edition on PS3 along with MK9 every day, WE NEED RERELEASES!
I called it after the initial gameplay reveal on Aris' channel when Harada did like a 80% combo using heat off one whiff punish. They turned T8 into SFV. Which was plagued by VT comebacks and a lack of defensive options for years until it's final update.
Heat in T8 functions similarly to VT in SFV in that you can pop it and absolutely steamroll the other guy. Except it's arguably worse in T8 because you start with Heat. At least in SFV you had a chance to beat the other guy before they had an opportunity to pop VT. This was always going to be a problem.
Its almost like Japanese devs dont pay attention at all to their communities. EVERYONE and their mama complained about how the V Trigger system functioned but Tekken devs looked across the street and went "yeah we should copy that".
yeah Tekken 8's Heat is the worst. At least in SFV you have to build the V meter and has a V Reversal unlike in T8 its all about pure 50/50 trash game.
@@ATC43 It's because they're more interested in chasing after an audience who's going to drop the game after 1 week than listening to their core playerbase. SFV was the first big instance of a fighting game dumbing itself down, and everybody else followed suit. With the exception of Tekken 7. Surprise, surprise. SFV was clowned on endlessly whereas T7 went on to sell millions. Becoming one of the most successful entries in the series.
SF6 did a better job integrating new players into the genre, but that's because it's a legitimately good game at it's core despite also being relatively easy.
So we’re acting like SF6 don’t have the same stupid amount of damage with unescapable throw loops on top of it. Okay.
say what you want abt comeback mechanics, but in my TINY BIT OF EXPERIENCE (anecdotal feel free to correct me if i'm wrong) not starting with V Trigger for examplewent miles as you could plan around when your opponent got theres, the information is accessable to both of you aswell in the gauge, boggles my mind they decided to allow such a powerful tool with full availability throughout a match.
I played T7 with my friend who's a Tekken Emperor Steve in T8. He thought I was bullshitting when I said he was a yellow rank in T7. We played and he couldn't win a round let along a match. Lot of new players need to play the older games to see how bullshit this game is
Got gud son, I played T7 and got Steve to purple ranks. I didn’t know any combos and still got him there.
@BigMujK Tekken Emperor in 8. I'm decent at the game. Also how you bragging about purple ranks.
No need to cope if you needed the game easier for you. Harda got you casuals covered
I feel that Kensou's points make some false equivalencies. Yes the offense earns a mixup when they knockdown their opponent in most games and they can often be a 5050, but the effort in getting that knockdown or other mixup opportunity is the topic here. Tekken 8 dev team purposefully chose relatively strong moves in each character's kit to use as Heat Engagers, and it physically moves you forward and puts you into an ideal spot to force that guess at advantage. They wanted to make it easier to see big reward from a hit, and simplify follow up offense by automatically putting you in position to use it with advantage. They also sought to lessen the value in blocking through chip damage, just in case the opponent has good enough knowledge and reactions to block correctly. I'm not sure how anyone could argue that such a scenario is comparable to older games.
Whether or not thats a good or bad thing isnt the point of the topic since thats subjective, though it seems like many competitors are not exactly thrilled about the design. Bringing up individual busted character scenarios in other games is a really weak counterpoint too. People have current day standards in regards to design since devs are far more experienced in these long lasting franchises with more resources.
im cool with getting combod to the wall and then have to guess for the 5050 but being forced into a 5050 is not cool
Since the "big 3" fighting games came out I've been saying the communities should stay separate I can't even tell you frames on a light attack in SF but in Tekken I know its i10, its nice we all like fighting games but they all do not function the same.
Exactly. The idea that because I know Tekken I must also know Blazblue is ridiculous.
Older tekken if you wanna be plus, you gonna do either on hit move or take a risk using slow plus on block move which can be CH by magic 4 or quick CH move. In T8.. Eat my safe powercrush heat engager , heat burst, heatsmash and all the weird tracking move which hit from 1km away.
In tekken, if you get knock down. you dont need to get up to get mix up. you can just stay there or side roll. Yes they can steel pedal you but you and them have to make a choice. This person clearly play SF more or doesnt even play tekken. No offense.
👀
Great video. No one can argue with this.
I literally got to Garyu last night by just running frame traps as Reina and landing either demon paw>sentai 3 or df+1, 2 to heat engage. After heat engage, I either do the headbutt throw, frame trap again, hit mid, or (to fully underline your point) literally simple step into hell sweep. It was real fun, but the point is I went from low orange to Garyu in 2 nights after not playing for basically 9 months, running a very simple flowchart based around getting heat
So, Tekken 8 is bad because you cheesed your way through to a rank that’s still way below average. Congrats on beating dogsht players.
@stefanjuarez6565 I mean, I'm just relaying my most recent experience, I'm not denying that I'm bad at the game. It's certainly anecdotal and proves nothing, just pointing out that the forced 50/50 mechanic is very abusable and helped me get along pretty quick after taking a 9 month break. If getting to Bushin is this easy, I'll be there in a couple days and comment here again, but you have a point. Most likely that won't happen, it was already getting hard and I have a long way to go, but it's no secret that I'm new to the game and my opinion is based on very circumstantial information. I'm just saying, it lines up with Mike's points, and it IS by design, the devs said as much in their statements. Also, I AM that new player they wanted, even if I come from other fighting games, so I intend to abuse these mechanics fully until I'm tired of them
@@erichthegraham noticing alot of these weirdly aggressive comments lmfao.
@@ri_c_e weird, right? I didn't even say the game was bad, in fact I said I was having fun, I'm actually liking it more than SF6 right now. It's just, I'm a new player when it comes to Tekken, which is exactly what they said they wanted. A lot of the stuff Mike talked about in the video is similar to complaints about SF6.
SF6 is a very volatile game, after playing both the last couple days I'm starting to think SF6 is actually even more volatile because a level 3 combo does well over half your life, and games are best of 3 instead of 5. 2 touches on final round in SF6 is REAL common, I've never seen more Perfects in any game ever. I'm also a hater of Modern controls, I think they should have never been allowed in ranked, it sets a bad precedent to me. However, I'd be lying if I said it was bad for the game's popularity, which is exactly what they were going for. I'm not even gonna go deep on Drive Rushes and throw loops (they don't bother me but others hate them), but long story short every single mechanic in SF6 has multiple videos from multiple content creators complaining about how they are scrubby and ruining the game.
FGs have been trying to grow the community for many years now, and their strategy for doing so has been to cater the games more to newer players. Modern FGs are literally designed to give new players a better chance to win aka the game's are more volatile. I think it's pretty obvious that now that they have grown the audience, they should shift focus back to making the game deeper for a while, but they'll probably double down on BS for a while yet before they realize this.
In two nights?? 😂only me took about 4 hours to get to shinryu with king and I played honest no frame trap bs no throw spam just SKILL
Great discussion vid.
Yeah, Perfect Legend replied (no pun intended) perfectly lol. It’s just the modern fighting game trend. Hopefully Fatal Fury CoTW or Virtua Fighter 6 will save us. Not holding my breath though.
Hey Mike, “dont get hit” LMAO
😂😂 such a nonsense low IQ argument. Thank you, sir ☝🏾
First off, huge respect for your argumentation and being able to always articulate your points so clearly
Given that, I do not understand how much of your argument was being twisted into "wahh i dont like mixups" lmao
It seems very clear to me, assuming Im not off the mark (especially as not a Tekken player), that the issue is the heat system lets players turn a neutral situation into a super plus 50/50 that the opponent HAS to take, in a way that is much easier to do than it should be, given how rewarding it is, yes?
Also didnt know you were such a big Soul Calibur fan. Did you ever get into SCVI?
There’s a reason the game became a bit more playable after they removed +17 on block heat dash at the wall and reduced it to +5. Making majority of command throws steppable and making heat burst steppable were also huge
👏 👏 👏
Your polite, patient, professionalism is appreciated. This was respectful and informative the fgc needs more of this and hopefully Harada is listening to people like you in the community.
Don't know how you do it. You got the patience of a Saint 😆.
Great video and I hope I am wrong about Tekken 8 and it appreciably turns around in season 2.
I was almost at my wits end explaining this on Twitter so I left it and came here 😂
@RealMikeHollow Understandable 🤣
The problem with pro player is that you can't take their opinion seriously.
When Joka and KKOMA said every character is a 50/50 except Feng how can you take them seriously?
coming like heihachi in the thumbnail mike! newish to your content but over the past few months you've become one of my top 3 content creators. another banger
As someone that does play a little bit of sf6 and Tekken 8, I feel both games are sort of guilty of committing similar sins, but as far as I'm concerned, Tekken 8 is pretty much at the deepest circle of hell. In sf6, with the possible exception of raw drive rush, the neutral in that game is truly fantastic. Active poking is rewarded, especially if you cancel into drive rush, while whiff punishes grant you a very generous punish counter state. It's a nice cohesive package. The issue comes about when the match gets reduced to one exchange in the neutral, and then you're stuck in a guessing throw loop for the rest of the game. I don't have an issue with throw loops necessarily, but for the most part, the state it's in now makes it so that the counter play is simply not worth the risk so you're better off taking the throw. I hear this got made a lot better with the introduction of Terry but time will tell.
In tekken's case, the heat bursts are far too rewarding to not just throw out that the counter for it is too limited (and the new dlc characters exploit this greatly, especially heihachi). Yes I know they now can be preemptively stepped or you can preemptively use a low or throw but that still means I'm taking more risk than the one doing the heat burst. It's nice that they improved the sidestep of the game, but I wonder for what, since a lot of the heat engagers track too well (Mishima ff2 being the biggest culprit) and some of these heat smashes are straight up broken and might as well be homing.
In both cases, I believe this is all a symptom of the current business model employed for fighting games. Between the drip feeding of dlc to artificially extend the game's life span and the focus on eSports tours to further market the games to further incentivise buying into the drip fed content and succumb to poor business practices is the real issue. Additionally as aris said, this genre does not benefit from this approach because things have to update and change whether it's even necessary or not.
P.s. I'm in the minority that thinks while dragunov is good, he's not exactly the problem. It's the fact that the game benefits his character archetype substantially more than the others, which is why you can make a similar case for Nina. Ok rant over
I agree there buddy I think the system in general is mostly at fault and the problem in T8 it just so happens that Dragunov is best suitable for that, specially with the new moves they gave him.
Anybody else laughing at Mike’s Heat Engage sound effects?!😂😂
BOOM 😂
😂😂😂😂
lets gooooo uninstalled yesterday!!!!
You're all late, I uninstalled Aug 19 lmao
the first thing i thought when i saw Tekken 8 was "they killed neutral and defence".
I can’t unhear the “I gave a second chance to Cupid” song when I read 50/50.
People tweak when you genuinely critique something they’re winning/good at. This is that whole “I had to deal with it so you gotta deal with it too” nonsense. Just because is something is able to be fought and dealt with doesn’t make it ok.
An example I’ll give if this is in MK1. There’s a character pairing you can do with say, Baraka and Stryker. Can nobody tell me that Baraka doing his slide move with Stryker ambush assist for a free wake up is ok. I refuse to believe that “just get better” nonsense. There’s nothing you can do against bs like that. You block it normally you should be able to punish but because Stryker is there you can’t. You can’t armor through it either because Stryker’s grenades hit twice breaking your armor. And on top of that assists such as those come back quickly. I have to play like a coward when IM knocking YOU down? That’s complete bs. And that should be nerfed, it shouldn’t be ok. Just because it’s there doesn’t mean it’s not unfair.
And example of forced 50/50 would be with Kung Lao’s Kameo. There are plenty of characters with high low/low highs. With Kung Lao, you can make your entire play style around guessing games. If you think someone is gonna do I high well it doesn’t matter because even if they do go for a high they can cancel their attack for the low hat anyway. Even if you guess right the Kameo can force the guessing game. And that, is bs. Again, just because it’s in the game doesn’t make ok. Somethings are broken and shouldn’t be tolerated.
About the point of being in old games so it’s ok is also dumb imo. In the future I don’t want people to deal with broken nonsense and have to deal with it because “well it was worse back then so 🤷♂️” like no dude. I don’t like this mentality of people shutting things down they’ve dealt with it. It’s beatable doesn’t make it right. The only way to deal with Baraka/Stryker that I know of, is with Sub Zero Kameo when he gives the ice armor. That’s all I can think of. And that is bs. And it’s not fair. It’s forced, not earned.
Thank you for bringing logic and well-thought points to the scenario
A lot of newer fighting games handcuffs characters to the system mechanics. Older fighting games usually have characters engage with the system mechanics in their own unique way.
For example look at 3S, some characters never use their meter for supers and opt for EX moves instead (however whiffing normals built meter lmao). In SF6, EX move utility is situational because it's tied to a resource that a shit ton of important defense and offense mechanics that also share while costing a lot.
Neither is better or worse but it's an interesting look at how their attempt to balance things via system mechanics lead to the nightmare scenario of "Every character is Ryu". Tekken 8 definitely has an issue with feeling very flowcharty
This is why is why I dropped SF6, & this isn't a Tekken 8 exclusive problem either, Tekken 7 also homogenised the roster
If you try to react to the screen freeze of heat burst with RA you can't, it won't come out on time. RA can break heat burst armor and tank it but it doesn't come out as fast. You have to use RA before the screen freeze, you are guessing they are using heat burst like you would guess any other move.
If you try to mash RA after a heat engage there are moves people can use where the RA won't come out and you will just get hit.
Remember the change in Lars framedata where they said they gave more plus frames because RA could beat all options Lars had in instead so they made it more plus so RA couldn't beat it. And by doing so all other options that were available before like step were gone and you now have to guess right.
Lesgo man ❤️
34:45 zoned out for a bit thinking "deam, this stage looks so detailed and clean..." like the graphics in T8 is clearly superior but T7 just looks less... noisy? Wow...
Oh, Jun has just finished her i10 string that I've started blocking 10 minutes ago and cant do anything about, well, time to flip a coin, cya!
Do they still have arcades in the UK?
@@davidparry5310 yeah, we've got a couple but it's nothing like it used to be. Few and far between, scattered around London and other cities.
What's wrong with tech traps? 😅
It's kinda sad how so much tech got removed systemwise because one character had perhaps a too strong version of it, so instead of nerfing this specific situation of a certain character, it gets removed for everyone, which sucks and takes away individuality, since people like to express themselves with all kind of tech and combos. It started with Tekken 7 when they removed floating players for getting up wrongly or jump over tech and Namco continues doing it in Tekken 8 when they removed hard spike combos.
Tekken keeps getting dumb downed, but some people will never stop complaining.
At least they could reduce chip damage and the tracking of some characters moves beside Dragunov.
Aye I agree but Knee is doing very good surprisingly with that slower play style with Bryan. Slow as in T8 slow not really in terms of T7 but that’s mostly the opponent getting in his face than him initiating.
It is true. But getting to Knee's level is something 90% will never get. It's a decision making + processing speed thing. It looks simple outside but it's complicated internally. In T8 you think more defending than when attacking. I felt this when forced to change my def style to offensive. You will notice just how much slower the one defending will get their own offense going but the attacker moves in milliseconds.
Heat engagers already give you huge reward by not spending any meter to enter heat, and then you have +18 off of it. It's ridiculous, heat engagers should be like they are without heat avaible, same properties, they just take you into heat, maybe give some knockdown moves plus frames (+8 or something) instead, but keep it managable, sure -8 is scary, but you can still interrupt slower moves, sidestep linear 13f+ moves, power crush slower ones too. It will give more thought to offense.
Tekken 8 is an amazing template for tekken game, but the heat system makes it too much. Tone it down. Feng and xiaoyu can keep you blocking for 20 seconds because his heat is so stupid
It would take tekken 8 players a tekken 8 equivalent of strive season 4 update to understand
No worries, tekken 8 will eventually get it, but the devs will not have any motivation to care because the game was already sold well, and the next game is likely going to be even worse because the line must go up and the target audience must always be expanded to the point when the game only has the same name and same character names
Tbh t8 is my last game tbh at that point I'm done.
Also, it is infuriatingly disengenious to say that "street fighter 4 had only 3 defensive mechanics" without mentioning how they fulfill many roles, interchange and combine with each other and offensive mechanics, giving a fulfilling and meaningful answer to sf4's offense.
After playing enough strive, I learned that sometimes the best thing one can do against overwhelming odds is just quit. I will of course point fingers and laugh about how strive managed to become an even worse game than it was, but it is way more fulfilling to just let the franchise's future go, detach from it emotionally, and simply enjoy what you enjoyed. People will repeat like parrots that %old game% is dead and %new game% is more accessible, but this won't stop people from returning to previous titles, be it T7, mortal combat 10, AC+R/Rev2, or, hell, even third strike/usf4
You can’t say the “devs will not have any motivation to care” when with every patch they are nerfing things that people complain about especially the heat smash. They care it’s just gonna take a while for them to balance everything out
I see Marduk in the thumbnail, I click.
just saw the tweet.. ran here to check if it was up yet.. lets go lol
great video, keep it up. remember the roots as you grow mike. :D
Saw kensou video about this and he came off so arrogant and childish memeing you. You were very respectful and chill about this discussion since it is a game at the end of the day. His argument boils down to "dont complain git gud", if he has that attitude there is no point in him even engaging in any of this. He just comes off trolling than genuinely engaging with the discussion. Just being contrarian for the sake of it.
Shout out to the bot that notified me about this lol
It's not that they don't get what you're saying. They do not want to get it. A lot of people are happy with how games are now forcing high level players into the same level as intermediate and low level players. Some people are happy seeing the bar lowered and will make whatever disingenuous argument they can make to justify that being a good decision..
I have no clue who that pro player is that made that tweet but I’ve seen people who are new to the fgc male that argument more then “og” players, again Idk who that player is it’s just my view on it
Mishimas aren’t that cool anymore because they don’t require the skill or execution like they did in previous Tekken games. Being hard to play and execute is what made them so awesome.
Tbh they're difficulty of them is over hyped to begin with
Nah bruh we getting too many fcking mishimas, we got 4 now, and some characters have other mishima moves like kuma and panda, give me a gd character that isnt a mishima by blood or by gameplay.
Miguel
Julia
Anna
Someonne bruh
@maximumdeejay I want my Muay thai guy.
Right, fam. I know you miss that dude, I miss my black jaguar boy Armor King.
We both want our favorite characters back, but we can't get em back because Kazumi and Jinpachi (characters they prolly wouldnt play fr) taking their slot.
People been asking for Bruce the most, I've been seeing shitloads of ppl asking for him, ain't no one aaked for Heihachi as much as they asked for Bruce, Anna, Armor King, ect.
Harada wanted Hei back the most.
Kazuya and dvj are stiller harder than ever other character in the game
Those guys on twitter somehow lost the plot. The argument was about forced 50/50 being unenjoyable and offering no counterplay not jailing pressure which should take skill and the game shouldn’t be holding your hand. From the wise words of MK Tom Brady “why the fuck does something have to be plus 45 on block?”
To be honest, I'm quite curious to know how people see and think about the 'ole 50/50 concept in general, not just in fighting games and frankly this is a fairly simple one to grasp.
The whole casino or gambling schtick or argument in Tekken 8 is quite something, brings more bad than good for the game.
As I watch throughout the video, I wonder, would you thought about rock, paper, scissors? 'Cause that is like the age ol' 50/50 concept where both sides has an option and you can even anticipate which of the three your opponent/s would use to a degree . Unlike tossing a coin or betting a number on the dice, you're technically forced to bet on luck. Whoever tosses the coin or rolling the dice, there's no guaranteed chance and you have nothing to do about it but wait and hope you get it right.
Just food for thought, dunno if this a good comparison though.
This is the reason why I love watching Mike because he's very honest and not bias in the game unlike when I'm watching Max, PhiDX, or MainMan, I'm just laughing out with everything they are saying because they are really trying hard to convince players that this game is good LOL..I wonder how much money Namco paid them. Their reactions are not genuine and you can really tell they are just acting because......("We need to act like the game is good because we got paid big bucks") LOL
Yeah I made a comment on phi’s video yesterday that it was funny that a legitimate game plan in T8 was to overwhelm your opponent with your busted kit before they could overwhelm you with theirs and he asked me if I had played anime games lol he actually thinks Tekken 8 should be looked at as an anime game. Totally lost respect for him when he said that to me
@@lt_johnmcclane LOL he admits that Tekken 8 is now like an anime game which is not the way it should be..Its funny that PhiDx is trying so hard to sugarcoat Tekken 8. He also look stupid with his reactions while coaching and watching Max in Rank Matches. You can tell that he's acting just to make the match hype even though its boring LOL..funny how money can make you look stupid LOL
God forbid someone likes a game that you dont, am I right? 'How are they genuinely liking a game that i don't.... Must be being paid to promote it" Tekken fanbase being cringe as always. Can't ever accept the opinions of others if it doesn't align with what they think.
The way I see it is that 50/50s are "Psuedo Mix-Ups" While Forced 50/50s are "True Mix-Ups". A pseudo mix-up has an "out", in which there are either one or multiple means to either escape, interrupt, etc. Most of this psuedo mix-ups are usually set-ups against the opponent when they are too pressured or have applied enough "Mental Frames" where they hesitate and allow you to "Force" a 50/50. However, the majority of psuedo mix-up are done at minus on block, so there's usually an out to beat the opponent's mix.
A true mix-up has no outs, you can only guess. This is done mostly from plus frames, usually at +4 and up where the opponent can barely escape or interrupt.
Tekken 8's system as you've entailed in the video is exactly why players feel frustrated with the "aggressiveness". Heat Engagers at +17 I believe, and Heat Dash at +5 or +7 was it? Move's that wall bounce on block for outrageous + frames and so on is what makes the game too aggressive. Great video broski👍🏼
Kensou always been a clown. He been hard riding one GG EVO placement a long time ago and thinks that is still relevant in this age lmao. When he can get a legitimate placement in one of these newer casino games he loves so much, I will listen to what he has to say.
Did anyone here achieved anything in the Fgc? Because if that’s your argument, your opinion is also irrelevant.
London Trocadero was the place to be when growing up. I miss those days.
Good times, man 😢
Does this validate rage quitting?
Man those dudes had some of the stupidest arguments ever. Like, if thats the type of player the Tekken devs are trying to court then have at it I suppose. Wild to me that someone cant understand that being -5 is HUGELY different than being -15.
At -5 in Tekken you can still semi reliably sidestep moves, especially linear ones. Once you get into -6,7 and higher you stepping becomes a HUGE risk as even things that dont track your sidestep direction WILL hit you. Now imagine you are -15 which is what Heat Engagers cause you to be. You sit there and take a FORCED 50/50 like you said, Mike. No stepping, sure as hell no challenging with a button, just sit there and Guess High or Low. This is why the Optimal way to play has been found so quickly. Launch, Wall Carry Combo, Pop Heat Burst, Use Heat Smash which leaves you at +7 to +8 in your opponents face, Guess for game.
Tekken has never been that way on a system wide level. Only certain characters could do it and they would have to earn those situations through great neutral play or scoring a knockdown, like Kazuya. Now everyone can do it with their Heat Engagers which are often on characters' best moves in T8. Great video Mike.
Thank you, sir ☝🏾
having to fight the good fight is exactly what made it interesting.. i think bro is like 18 years old
Heat dash being +17 absurd heat smashes vary but those being roughly +10~< is annoying. The more I play tekken 8 I realize holding back after the heat dash works you can duck if you have the read on the low/grab or can break. I tend to treat it like any other +ch standing ch move. Law does ch db3 +13 you’re still locked down for the mix that’s where your actually defensive comes into play. I feel like they will eventually tone down the heat + frames but heat will still be in the game which I actually do like it. Forced is subjective imo but I do understand your perspective I don’t align fully but I am in agreement on heat being to +
Also it would be a feng downplayer/ Duk main not to show the most egregious things about Duk’s rage drive that is not only + 7 on block which you ain’t moving or doing anything against him or the fact that monster could combo into. That mane is playing tekken 8 in 7. Df1 reaching range for unseeable low hitting ch hitting you for 70 Danny even in the rage drive you has a literal 50/50 between 1&2 breaks because they treated his bad built body ass like the original Tekken grab format. Don’t even get me started or Kuni the Tekken 8 starter package.
All that being said this discussion is tired some the community complains a lot some warranted others not so much the defensive patch was a good step in the direction along with how they recently reduced tracking. There’s a lot of promise in tekken 8 t7 is in its current state forever
How am I a Marduk/Feng downplayer? I literally called Marduk the cheapest character in Tekken 7 and Feng was easily Top 5 lol.
It’s already a forced 50/50 whether I’m throwing the game in the trash or they fix the game in season 2.
I’m gonna lose my shit if I have to continue going into a -5 situation after EATING a heat engaging move. Also the running animation looks stupid. Just my take.
You're not alone in your anger, sir 🗿
I’m honestly surprised people still play Tekken 8 at this point. For me it’s the worst Tekken I’ve played next to Tekken Revolution.
It’s been almost a year and we still have to deal with shit like Nina, Drag, Yoshimitsu etc…
Nah this game is ass on top of the garbage system.
Has anyone counted how many times he said "Egregious"?
I understand it now . Thank you Mike
🙏🏾🙏🏾
Im here for the rant of all rants
Looks like plain English is hard to understand, that’s the only explanation I have for people not understanding what you’re saying lol
What Ghost is saying a 50/50 is only real when there is a threat of 2 options that hit at the same time that can’t be blocked in the same position. i.e A high or a low you have to commit to blocking high or low. If they wouldn’t hit at the same time you can fuzzy block, which means it isn’t a real 50/50
Heihachi wave dashing in neutral isn’t a 50/50 because like you mentioned there’s tons of options but if heihachi is wavedashing after he gets a knock down , now your options are limited and you have to guess mid or low
I'm like, intermediate at best, so not claiming to know better, but I'm not sure I'm getting this in an objective way.
Comparing heat engagers to a Mishima wavedashing at you in neutral doesn't seem relevant because that's not really a 50/50. Wouldn't it make more sense to just compare it to other moves that are very plus on hit? Because that's basically what a heat engager is, isn't it?
Am I right in saying the problem could be articulated as heat engagers being super plus on hit, with a lot of them being safe, mids, and/or armoured, and this is why they are "forced 50/50s" where typically in past games, most moves that were that plus on hit were much riskier to throw out, and therefore not "forced"? And then heat dashes are even worse as they are also super plus on block?
Forced 50/50 means the opponent has literally no option but to guess between two options (in Tekken and other 3D fighters, between low and mid).
Also, he brings up wavedashing as a point of contrast with heat engagers. He's pointing out that, with the former, the opponent has options that don't involve either guessing low or mid.
@davidparry5310 right, but if we're talking about the difference between a "50/50" and a "forced 50/50" then wavedashing in neutral isn't really relevant, because it's neither of those things. I still just don't really understand what the difference between the 2 of these things is, even after watching the whole video. In tekken, specifically, is there like a threshold of how many +frames a move has that it leads to a "forced 50/50" vs leading to a "50/50"?
@@sammitch524 Yes there is a threshold. At +5 and Up things become MUCH harder to step out of. Even at +4 most people are not going to be dumb enough to try and jab out of your pressure. They will instead try to sidestep-block to your character's weakside, if they are knowledgeable enough. I play Heihachi and when I do F4 I'm +4. NO ONE actually decent tries to jab out of that pressure, they all usually try to sidestep left to make my best pokes whiff. They only ever challenge with a fast button if I am being very predictable. This forces me as the offensive player to think carefully about my offense even though I'm +4.
At +6 stepping becomes MUCH riskier, even to character's weak sides. More things will track/realign to you and you DEFINITELY dont want to be challenging with even a 10 frame jab because a 13 frame Df1 will beat you since its now basically a 7 frame df1. You can still step SLOW linear stuff but your best bet here is to stand still and block mid or low until its your turn. Funny enough, in the scenario I laid out above, a Powercrush will also work since the armor frames activate at frame 7 meaning even if your opponent is +6 in your face, if they do a df1(now basically a 7 Frame move) you can mash out with your powercrush. Theyd need to do something 12 frames or faster to beat out your mashed powercrush. This how the devs want the game to be played...by mashing out defensive options.
But I digress. Even with all this stated its still not a "forced 50/50" even at +5 to 6. Stepping slower/linear moves and braindead/calculated mashing are still on the table. This is why people sometimes will wait or sidestep after doing a heatdash that gives them +5. They are looking for a mash/response by their opponent that they can capitalize on.
When you get into the +8, 9, 10 and beyond range there is no reason to be pressing or stepping at all because anything you do will get clipped by the opponent and the risk/reward for doing anything other than standing there to block low or mid is often not in the favor of the defender. Example, Dragunov's QCF4 now giving forced crouch +8 on hit instead of a knockdown. Many people think this is a semi buff because he essentially gets to force a mixup on the opponent now.
Heat Engagers are +17 meaning you literally cant do anything. Heat Smashes on block are +6~+8 with some having stance options that either track, have a high guardbreak or unbreakable throw. You stand there and take the 50/50. Stand or Duck.
@@ATC43 Appreciate the explanation. So is the issue that t8 just has way more moves that cross this threshold than t7 and older games had? Is the +17 ballpark unique to heat engagers, or are there other moves that get around that many plus frames?
Watching that recent Knee vs Ulsan fight, you definitely can play defensively in 8, it's just harder to do. I'd argue the game itself is harder. With the skill floor lowered, a lot of options that were locked behind execution in previous games are more viable now. You're forced to deal with and interact with a lot more. It's cool if you prefer 7's pace over 8, but why not just stick with 7 instead of trying to change the balance of a game you don't enjoy fundamentally with your complaints? There's already a game for you, several even. But us who enjoy heat, and the faster pace, and the increase in engagement shouldn't have to lose what we enjoy for the game to become something it was never intended to be.
But what if you're the minority and Tekken 8's mechanics shrink the playerbase and competitive scene instead of increasing it? The game's mission statement was to make itself more approachable for new players and funnel them into competitive and increase the size of its esports scene. If that doesn't happen and what results is a sidegrade to Tekken 7 with marginally better metrics, then this was all just a big waste of time.
@@WhayYay Uh, no. There will just be people who play 7, and people who play 8. Smash has already proved you can have multiple games in competitive rotation. Also, I'm pretty sure the people who enjoy the new game are the majority, they just have no reason to be vocal. I'm pretty sure the toxicity of "Tekken 8 is brainrot, 50/50 casino gambling" talk is more harmful to the community than the game is. But we'll see, I guess.
@torysteller4475 yea I'm not talking about game preservation or communities I'm talking about how Bandai Namco (the Disney of japan) will view the product of tekken 8.
"Was it bigger than tekken 7, did it accomplish what it set out to do, is this the direction we want to keep going in?"
So far, I don't think it has, according to their metrics, and I'm scared we may not see sequels because of that.
@@WhayYay Well, we got another 10 years of this game. Plenty of time for an entire new generation of players to try it out. It's currently the second most popular fighting game in the world. It may drop to third depending on how season 2 goes and if the competition can fill the void for those dissatisfied players, but it's not going anywhere. To your point, I think they vastly overestimated how much money they could milk from it, but the franchise as a whole has never been this big. This is the first time in 25 years it's been remotely mainstream. Literally the only thing threatening its future is the diehard community backlash. If you really want to see it thrive, support it, like you would any art you care about. Or don't. That's your choice.
@@torysteller4475 I hope you have seen Harada's Bar where he clearly states Tekken 7is alive and still selling. With other new players also disliking T8. Meaning some move to 7. In Africa I find more matches in T7 emperor than T8 red. In fact I matched for 3 hours and only got 4 players in rotation. The situation is worse than you think in other areas too.
This game requires no execution anymore. Ask any king player. Forced 50/50's are huge in this game, feel like I'm plating MKX. I'm also going to gripe about the lame ass lows that send you flying across the map landing on your stomach. Oh, and I keep getting dropped from the servers like it was day one....
King now has an easy wavedash too, like the character is easy asf fr
And he not as much as a problem but heat is still overwhelming in this game.
MKX doesn't force you to take 5050s though....
Ok now I know your just yapping right now cause max isn’t an easy game at all if you actually played it and king isn’t the brain dead if you try to lab his annoying moves.heat definitely needs a nerf but all your doing is whining without giving the devs a solution.
@@randothecrambo7842 exactly!
@@FAM0US-M0NSTERS- king been doing him since he became a character all this crying about king is annoying to me as an OG Tekken player.
I didnt know tekken had turned into this type of game. Even in blazblue and guilty gear, which are games well known for their bullshit usually there is some condition before u can start mixing people. Typically its getting their mixup as oki, meaning someone has to at least get a knockdown before they can start their mixup, and in that case u can avoid that situation by not getting knocked down. But it seems like in tekken 8 now u have unavoidable plus frames with heat smash/dash giving you free 50/50s.
basically you need to set up certain conditions(eg knockdowns) to get 50/50s in most fighting games, but from the sound of it not T8
30:08 this is a good example to show that this guy doesnt understand what you were trying to say, getting a 50/50 of a knockdown and getting one off inescapable plus frames( cough cough heat) is entirely different since you can avoid getting knocked down. Plus frames also matter way more in tekken since cancels and frame 1 reversals dont exist.
out of curiosity though can someone tell me how common plus on block heat engagers are?
I dont think there are many plus on block heat engagers. I think Hwoarang has one on a homing kick, but it can be jab floated if you call out him doing two in a row. BUT there are Power Crush Heat engagers which are armored moves that ignore an opponents attack and go into the +17 heat engage if they hit.
The crazy part is these armored "get off me" moves become safe(if they are even unsafe in the first place) if the opponent attacks into it but is able to block it in time AND even ones that are usuall punishable on block become +5 when used with a Heat Dash during heat.
The other problem is that a lot of heat engagers are on characters' best neutral moves which are homing, or have great range/tracking, or are safe. The road to hitting a heat engager and forcing the +17 situation is very easy(some more than other characters) relative to the difficulty with not getting hit.
Heat needs to be tuned to what the defense is in this game because if youve seen any knee bryan game there is defense but the system surrounding the game is to powerful and is definitely in need of nerfs.
19 min in. Brotha, scrubs don't even know the difference between a 50/50 and a mix up. All 50/50s are mix ups but not all mix ups are 50/50s. People think normal throw game like say, Bryans throw game a a 50/50. They actually believe its a guessing game. People think Snake Edge/ Orbital is a 50/50. Some ppl are hopeless and refuse to learn. I've given up.
Bro, you really think they are going to let Mardok stay the same knowing Heat exists? 😂 Never! We won't have to worry about half the stuff you talking about in Tekken 8 because the stuff he has in 7 will NOT work the same while Heat exists.
It'll probably be even more powerful. Marduk has gotten stronger with every iteration. I have no doubt that he's going to literally be Broly when he drops.
@RealMikeHollow you think people are quitting Tekken now? It'll be a desert online if THAT happens with Marduk. But imo The Devs have done a good job at making the dlc good but not completely broken. Eddy cool, Lidia not broken, and Heihachi is very good but far from Broken. I have faith in them based on their track record so far and past mistakes. Marduk will be crazy but NOT OP. I HOPE! Lol
Well Said Mike
The thumbnail 💀
The pissed off Kazuya frown
My disappointment is immeasurable and my anger is inexhaustible.
Imagine a fucking game where you blocked marduks heat smash, he's now in vts at +5. Talk about uninstalling the game.....
Yeaaa ghost was talking out of his ass.
Good discussion tbh. I still play TT2 occasionally and it’s a different game from T8. Then you have games like Street Fighter where characters can have zoning objects floating on the screen and spam them as they walk you down into combos where you can’t really get up and just accept defeat. (Still learning SF6 as an OG but returning player) I think tekken 8 is fine it just needs character balancing cuz for example Yoshi has 2 unblockables and a very hard to read low attack that is crazy strong on oki, if Yoshi didn’t do as much damage as he does in T8 it would make sense to have all these. Calling everything a 50/50 though is crazy cuz tbh just block, fuzzy ducking is literally so helpful when it comes to mixups, and as a player you just have to except that sometimes you’re going to get hit, it’s about how you deal with getting hit to change the game around.
I really don’t understand why it’s a hard. Concept to understand heat engage pite u in a mix up u have almost no defence to worry Lidia u can do a 2 not med punch combo or a unvlocksble high this mix up is powerful but u are forced to take them you make sense. To me
Mike my goat
☝🏾☝🏾☝🏾
In summary, Marduk is gonna be the final boss of Tekken 8 ranked lol
Unless Jinpachi shows up. Then sh*ts really gonna hit the fan.
Fair point
Nerfing or changing the heat system is tricky because imho not all characters benefit equally from it. For example, while Jin is naturally strong, his heat is borderline garbage. Other than his heatsmash, his moves don't get at all better in heat. Meanwhile there's Kuma who literally becomes the strongest Mishima in the game the moment he activates heat. If you nerf heat then Kuma will feel like he got hit with a 300 Winchester Magnum while Jin will feel like someone crumpled a tissue paper and threw it at his face. Tekken 8 cornered itself with this mechanic. There's no easy way to tinker with it that will not heavily affect the roster.
Jenuin question what is a 50/50 in fighting i nevee know what people mean when thay say 50/50 is that another term for 1 and dun or no??
A 50/50 is a mix situation where one option to answer is correct and the other is getting you hit. For example, in a 2D game like SF it would be a situation where you had to guess high/low or left/right mix. Here it would be, say, having to guess between a low or a mid.
@shainalang ooooo ok thanks for letting me know bro I oprisheat your help bro stay safe have a nice day
Definitely agree, most devs are pretty open about wanting to cater the games to newer players. For the most part, this has been a net benefit, but eventually the pendulum is gonna have to swing back to depth over breadth, but these devs are gonna be stubborn and push some bad ideas for a while before they realize that now that they got people interested, they have to KEEP people interested. Just another reason why I'm a big advocate for what I'm calling "the rotation," aka making sure you play some old games too, you gotta keep reminding yourself what keeps these games fresh (sometimes even after multiple decades).
Good vid. The argument about the 50/50 stuff mightve just been semantics, cus it sounds like other dude knew enough about the game but was caught up on you calling it forced vs not. Some ppl when they think of 50/50 might think of the situation in which your already in the guessing scenario, while in Tekken you usually had to set it up and theres still movement options so its technically not a 50/50 cus you arent forced to choose between 2 options but are forced to guess an option regardless. You pointing that out multiple times tho should’ve made it apparent but X isnt a good space for discussion where it otherwise could go well
"I play tekken 7 now, more than i play tekken 8"
I never thought in a million years someone would say that. I totally understand, i havent played consistently since heihachi came out and im a 20+ year heihachi main. The game just isn't that fun win or lose at the moment. They need to tune down alot of the mechanics imo. No powercrushing heat engagers. They should've made heat something you need to build up, or make it so its always there in a finite quantity that you can use whenever available.
In other news, and not to stir the pot but I feel it's something you should know. But Fate appeared on Ryan Roger Athay's stream today and called you out & referenced you (and Sikander), still crying over old news. Huge coincidence after your recent run in with Ryan, eh? And so much for not letting your name exit his mouth.
Why is he calling me out? 😂 What an imbecile. I'll check it out when I have literally nothing better to do. I'm sure it'll provide me with some laughs.
@@RealMikeHollow He called you out, and according to his story that he recanted for the millionth time on Ryan's stream: because you got "upset" that he called K&M "condiment clowns" but did not get upset with Sikander for "threatening violence" against him, basically perception checking you (i.e. WHY DID YOU GET MAD AT ME AND NOT HIMMMMMM, HE DID SOMETHING WORSSSSSSE!!!). That, and again according to Fate: you got upset only because you're mates with Sik and K&M.
Here he is. Yet again. Bitching and moaning as a near 50 year old man about the same old thing, how many times does he need to bring this past event up that everyone has forgotten about? Sad, really. All this time has passed and he's still dwelling on the same ancient interaction (eg: the night where you spoke with him and Sikander, where the mother appeared etc). I find it funny. And achingly pathetic. Surprised as well as I thought he was not going to mention you. But ya, check it out if you have a sec. Just prepare for the cringe. Also too, it's obvious when he constantly says "them" and "what they have done to me" and "how those people think" who he's talking about. But in this case, on Ryan's stream: your name was used.
Also too and finally: he said that your interaction with Ryan gave him "flashbacks" as what you did to Ryan was the same thing you did to him. You're mentioned various times during the stream at different points.
30:50
Now hold on...
To be fair, we had forced 50/50 in Tekken 7 as well, like hitting a homing move which makes the opponent ballerina spin or blocking a wall crush move would leave you in so much plus frames, that the opponent had basically to guess afterwards.
Ofcourse heat engagers are still stronger but at the same time, not everyone can do the same things as Kuma, as he is definitely the strongest in doing chip damage and keeping plus frame loops which are uninterruptable. You could argue though, that his lows kinda sucks, so it's supposed to be his replacement.
But tbh, I'm mostly annoyed by heat smashes, they are doing too much damage, are too fast and many have crazy tracking.
Would be genuinely interested in a pc mod that allows us to turn heat on or off for matches and see how that version of the game is compared to now
This might get lost in the noise but i have been a lili 1 trick since Tekken 5 and the reason i have done this is exxecution has always been the real skill ceiling and only knowing 1 move list and 1 characters interactions has always let me focus on fundamentals.
In Tekken 8 i have picked up a multitude of characters and using only legacy knowledge and generics i can cheese so many wins using heat and rage it isn't even close to difficult.
I still play the older Tekkens and i still will forever be a 1 trick in those games because of the difficulty of the fundamentals in those games.
Kensou's a mook, he couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag.
Good afternoon