HIGH-END AUDIO: High Quality or just High Prices?
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- Опубликовано: 6 авг 2024
- Does High-end audio with its lush looks always deliver high-quality? Why this type of hi-fi gear is insanely expensive? What are the main (true and fake) reasons behind these high price tags? Does high-quality therefore always require high expense? Find out with us!
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The biggest difference in audio that I have seen are small changes to speaker crossover components, room treatment, speaker placement things anyone can sort of do. Room treatment and placement being the biggest, and with bookshelf speakers getting solid stands (or filling them with sand) will do more than you'll ever believe.
Underestimation fear is a real thing. In the cologne and perfume industry this has been demonstrated often. Perfume companies have found that the very same perfume will not sell when offered at a low price. The very same perfume is repackaged as an expensive perfume and it becomes a top seller. We are talking the very same product but different packaging.
Sad thing is, that's indicative of a problem with us, and our psychology. If we simply bought what we liked without regard to cost, quality items would be more affordable.
Great talk, we are start in audio or anything with limited knowledge, I started at the age of 12 in in 1973 and have changed so much in what matters and what makes a difference .
What I learnt over the years and how.
In the 1970s I was a teenage sales person in New York City for hifi store.
I got to listen to a lot of different equipment on a daily basis working part time as I was still in high school.
Most of the gear was just OK and the idea of spending hours with speaker placement was not that popular.
I started to learn that the room makes a huge difference and how speakers sound.
I also learned that certain amplifier and speaker combinations could work well or badly.
Then I went to work in a professional recording studio and realized all the many different factors of what makes a recording.
I was then fascinated by the dynamics of studio monitors that were quite large but at the same time did not sound that good.
But I wanted both, big dynamics but with finesse.
So what was the problem why can I not have both?
Size and money😕
I wanted three panel pair of magnapans , but my bedroom was too small and they needed too much power, which I could not afford in the 1970s
So I bought a pair of IMF transmission line speakers which were wonderful, but did not have that full height and scale that I was really looking.
And here is where I started learning by building my own loudspeakers and understanding how difficult it is, but also learning how cabinets and bracing, and the quality of all the parts I have a crossover, resistors coils and caps could make such a large difference with quality drivers.
This gave me an understanding of the compromises the manufacturers made when I looked into many popular speakers and saw very inferior parts, I also started to modify amplifiers and found that was a good designUpgrades to the parts could make a good improvement, but on other designs not so much.
Thanks Guido, this is a really good topic.
A few more reasons for high prices:
Advertising and trade shows.
Profit margin stacking, every step along the food chain a 30 to 50% profit margin is added.
R&D for cost reduction reasons is really insulting to customers. What they say is that it is so expensive because so much money went in to R&D. But sometimes this R&D is only to find out how much they can cheap out with components without sacrificing the sound quality too much.
I guess there are a few more reasons. In any case I buy vintage and I know my HiFi is not the best but I also don't aspire to own the best. It just has to be good enough for me. So I think learning to moderate your expectations and be happy with what you have will save you a lot of money.
I buy vintage and modern from thrifts and others that are selling. Sound and the ears just don't lie. Those that buy equipment at insane numbers will always be taken. I can tell you that a few pieces I have acquired, I would have paid cost for. Yamaha Rx-Z9, HK avr-7200, B&W 805 Horizontal. Each of those pieces were acquired for under 60 dollars, with the 805's at 59.99, the Z9 at 24.99 and the 7200 at 49.99. Although this vintage is more modern, there's still true vintage out there that sound just as good as the high end, . A friend I met at a thrift scored a Macintosh Ma-6200 for 49.99. I called him on the way to the store, but, he'd beat me out there already.
Right on, brother. I have mostly vintage gear and to me, it sounds fantastic. I was a musician for 20 years and understand what good sound is. Whether it be in a studio setting or a live one, good sound should always be dynamic, because it moves you. It evokes emotion and that’s what most people want from listening to music. IMO.
What do you mean by "profit margin stacking?" No company has absolute control over their ultimate profit margin % unless they are willing to risk failing to maximize their total profit. Margins are generally determined by the market at large -- meaning consumers and competitors -- not by the desires of specific firms.
@@asegal4677 Profit margin stacking is a well known therm. (you can probably Google it, though I have not tried that) it is where every company and supplier puts it's own profit as % of the total cost on top of the price. And because the product by it's nature tends to go trough so many hands, the final price gets bumped up beyond what the price was intended to be by the main manufacturer.
I totally agree. I'm old and of old school audiophile. In the 70's your budget breakdown was simply always was the speakers. Second the amp. or receiver. Third is a modest decent turntable with a good cartridge. Now if you could put off the tape deck and upgrade the cartridge as an option. Keep up the great work Guido.
You are killing it. Great start to 2022. Amazing content.
Just recently I have subscribed to Your channel Guido.Must say for me the best of all in RUclips !Honest and easy to understand.As for High End audio,above all it is a buisness.I use to work in Hi-FI`/High End sales.High End as you said,are produced in small numbers by small companies and everyone in the chain,from production to distributor must earn something or the whole thing make no sence.Some things are overpriced but still there are a fair deals.There are trade in with some distributors,and tha's a bit easier way to clime up when building a system.Distributors have to invest a large amounts of money just to get a chance for certain dealership,of course later on that is added in the price of units, and price can be dictated from companies -mostly are.Dependnig where is made and for wich market is intendet to sale.There are demands from producing companies to a distributors on how many units must be sold just to maintaine a dealership,those things make the end price as well.Distributors have to pay advertising on their own,service parts are mostly paid for as well by distributors it is a very complicated system from import to end consumer. There is still good value for money ,as Prima Luna is and some others as well.
Nicely done Bro! *LOVE* the lighting, and of course the new intro! 👍
Interesting points, a few of which I never realised before this. I am glad you mentioned your habit of buying expensive cables; we long-time subscribers of yours know only too well about your passion for those things. And VERY surprised to hear you say that luxury hi-fi components aren't always delivering luxury increases in quality. Makes some of us feel good about our non luxury systems.
Thanks! You mean of NOT buying expensive cables..
You are so very right about a lot of factors that raise the cost of production of Hi end HiFi, but I would just like to add something. you mentioned research and development and finally the handcrafted stuff. experienced people are not available on hand these days and there are very few of the really knowledgeable and experienced people that want to work for less than what they know that they are worth. this is becoming a trend in a lot of industries. good electrical engineers, industrial designers, fitters and turners, assemblers and the list goes on.
love your videos. Keep them coming.
Ciao
Love this discussion and agree with you. In your summary recommendations I think you should also include cartridges, as these change the sound a lot, sometimes with little money for the better. ALL the best.
Thanks...I thought about it and I must say that I decided not to include it. Don't get me worong a god cart is more important than the TT and as important as the phono stage BUT having now a 3200$ cart, isn't that better than my 700$ Dynavector (well, now they raised the price to 1200$...WHY?).
great vid Guido thanks for your good advises!
l agree with most of the points you're making. l never forgotten what is the most importand thing to me when it comes to use hifi..............fortunately it is still passion for the music itself , so l listen to it sometimes instead of spending thousants for the wheel
hoping that this time it's gonna be more round only because is more expensive. Obviously quality matters and the good sound is that what we want but quick look at the spec and also certain knowlenge and consciousness is needen when it comes to make shopping.
Amplification: I had big heavy 1000 euro / dollar amplifier... sold it and bought small class D Ayima a07 for 50 euros - and I think I like the cheap Ayima more -It has more resolution and definition in slap... a bit less heft though, but i still like it more. Class D is the future! Speakers: more money typical gave me more quality ... Though, never forget: number one is the room. Positioning speakers well, having a well sounding room and fixing it with diffusors and absorbers is best way to improve sound - and the costs here is time and most of all: the cost is in convincing wife, why you need those things in a room.
Has really nothing to do with high end. a decent amplifier costs at least 1000 euro new.
Great video! Well presented…and the recent price increases IMO are not consistent with the market. I feel the industry is taking advantage of the pandemic and using it to raise prices to a much-higher level than they should be charging.
Great video as always, your spot on Hifi prices are getting stupidly high in recent years.
Thanks Guido, I have purchased my system and audio components based on how they sound and not on how they look or what label/brand is stuck on them. The best way to educate yourself is to get involved or attend a couple of hifi society meetings in your home town/city were there is usually a heaps of knowledgeable people that can point you to non mainstream equipment and in some cases DIY alternatives. Some of these diy alternatives can be giant killers for a fraction of mainstream or retail costs. Hifi clubs/societies also demo equipment that you might not be able to listen to, in a snobbish hifi stores. When demonstrated in club meeting there is always discussion on and about the sound afterwards - so you learn to evaluate equipment not only to your ears but also more experienced listeners ears. Synergy is also the key to a great sounding system which takes time and research to achieve. Good luck.
But all said and done I would still love to own a Kondo Audio Note Ongahu amplifier , Avantgarde Audio Duo XD speakers and a SME 30/2 turntable, DCS Rossini DAC & SACD transport but I just cannot afford it. But I’m happy with my modest and eclectic sound system and I can live with what. Especially now that I’m loosing my hearing as an old fart.
I agree! Thanks for your input 👍
Over the last 2 years ( and continuing) I have been building a three arm tt. What that ongoing process has made it clear to me, there is justification for some of the high priced small run turntables.
I would add the reason connected to exclusivity . This was very noticeable in the beginning of 90 ties when many high end products were overpriced facing with almost no competition.
I agree and it fact it was one of the points written: Luxury (exclusivity)
You sure are absolutely right about 'Handmade' products. Decware is an excellent example.
Having spent most of my working life in Hi-Fi repair from the 70's
one thing that i have learned that one you reach a certain price point
vs performance, anything costing more is just paying for a brand image
or styling.
Yes it feels good to be able to afford well built expensive gear, but don't
expect the performance difference to justy the high price tags.
I am getting the same feel. Thanks for sharing that.
Thank you ! I am learning a lot !
Very well said, ANA[DIA]LOG. I believe that since I got interested in hi fi audio in the very late 1980s it was almost the same then; but you got what you paid for, most of the time. These prices on a couple of new niche DACs are insanely high, for example. I think that when analogue playback is considered it is the phono cartridge, and as you have explained the phono preamplifier that has plenty of significance to the playback of records.
Furthermore, an MC cartridge can have an advantage, and pick up a bit more musical signals than a lower priced MM cartridge. Also, very expensive MM cartridges have caught up, and can almost match the MC system, and design. In that case there is a small difference of added musical details, or higher performance. Therefore, a hi fi listener could consider his, or her definition of what is better about a hi fi audio component; a phono cartridge as an example.
Certainly the turntable, tonearm, platter, mat, and cartridge are important, but does anybody consider the accuracy of the motor? Accuracy of rotation for correct playback of a record is another area to consider. The precision of speed for a motor within a turntable, or outside of it, to revolve a record at exactly 33.33, 45, 78, or even 16 RPM is important, too. I wonder if there are audiophiles who take that area of precision of speed further into consideration?
More to the point the best cables are a bit expensive, but the main fact is such cables should have correct impedance, and ideally should be high quality OFC for electricity to flow very efficiently through a wire. A wee bit above the conductivity of oxygen free copper is that of pure silver; not gold! There is the case of hugely expensive phono cartridges that have gold windings; illogical because copper, and silver are ahead of gold as the best conductive metals!
Anyhow, maybe I'm going off the topic, but as you've explained there is not much logic, and an exact purpose for a hi fi audio component to cost an enormous amount of money to supply a very small edge of performance, and clarity. Except if a hi fi audio person has, and is willing to spend much more money. Objectively, as you have explained, when including luxurious parts, and flamboyant design, those things do not make the sound of musical playback any better, and clearer.🔉🎼🎵🎶
Recently my 700$ iFi iPhono2 died, common for this model.
I tried the iFi Zen Phono for 180$ to keep my system going and I was surprised it sounded almost exactly the same as my iPhono2 with no reputation of failure. Perfect example where cheaper was not worse but actually better.
Ah Leon, you do get around mate! 😁
That's because the rest of your system is not high enough quality to reveal the difference as well as iFi's entire line is of entry level quality
@@divertiti When you show me some ABX tests confirming it, Ill believe you.
@@leon9021 It doesn't matter what you believe, it won't stop being true. Just because a Honda owner demands "aBx" against a Ferrari, doesn't make them the same car
@@divertiti Truth needs to be demonstrated, until then, try some ABX tests regarding your opinions.
Very level headed video, well done. Im surprised how much we agree here. I would just say to me Speakers, Cartridges and Media are the top 3 performance arbitors.
And room acoustics. Dacs, amplifiers, streamers, cd players when proper build all sound the same. Cables don’t sound either.
@@ener5361 True, often forgotten aspect as its not something you directly connect into the system with cables.
Great topic and ABSOLUTELY agree.
Had it explained to me by a High-end maker. Simple it makes the product more desirable to elites . Higher price keep the rif raf from owning the product . There is a small market . This is the Ferrari effect making the product hard to get thus more of a status item . Much as you have covered .
Best sound I ever heard:
Driving my dad's Corvette down the strip , top down , FM radio playing the Rolling Stones satisfaction
..sounded Fn Awesome
These are all good points. I would add that another component that many don’t think about when they make the decision to move from budget or inexpensive gear to high-end is that now they will also be putting that high-end equipment into competition with the limits of their listening spaces which are often inadequate and almost never designed specifically for acoustics. I say that myself in that I recently invested, after many years of having been out of audiophile gear, in a new system which is about $10,000 (a tube amp, pre amp, DAC, a pair of speakers, and some decent cables (SKW, to be precise after your recommendation). $10,000 is by no means exorbitant when it comes to purchasing audiophile high-end equipment, it is moderately expensive in my opinion. The issue I have now is the room is limiting the potential of the system and so now I am left with a decision: live with the inadequate potential of the system knowing it could be better or invest potentially more hundreds if not thousands of dollars in various forms of room treatment, both digital signal processing and acoustic panel treatment. Such is the trap of high end audio.
A couple grand in GIK Acoustic treatments will remedy.
@@petek6031 I am seriously considering that.
Excellent assessment !
Despite all of the wonderful “advances” in sound reproduction touted constantly by hifi companies, there really hasn’t been a large leap in technology with stereo components; I guess that’s why so many audiophiles seek out older units - McIntosh, Klipsch, Audio Research, Marantz, tube equipment and such. In most industries, innovation leads to much better products at lower costs. No one spends time or money trying to find “vintage” flip phones.
That is very rare in the high-end segment of any industry, be it a new $12 million Bugatti or a $10 million wristwatch. The questions you ask yourself as a manufacturer are simply different than with mainstream products.
Well, in some cases like speakers, new materials equal different sound properties to better suit modern music, but hey if you like old recordings, McIntosh sounds fine
Your premise about the phones doesn't ad up. Old flip, $200. New Iphone, $1000. Old flip made much better sounding calls.
Yep. Listen to Peter Qvortrup of Audio Note.
My class D amp sounds fantastic and does not waste much energy into heat, which is also the right choice for many other reasons. It was not around five years ago, it's new technology. Also, the ribbon tweeters in my loudspeakers are pretty much new technology and materials, so there are new technologies that sound pretty amazing.
Love your videos.....
Keep em coming...
As we all get older now and our hearing diminishes as so many of us are in that group now
Chasing the dragon is an ego feeding exercise...
Its fun, but its got lots of psychology...
Your true reasons for the high costs are exactly what I've been saying, I work in a research and testing environment and the costs that are incurred long before a product can be certified for production can be quite high.
I also fully agree with you on the part where prices are just hiked up for silly reasons, I've seen IEM prices here in South Africa that are more than twice the cost of importing the exact same product from Amazon (US) with shipping and Customs duty included. I mean yes I know the guy has to make profit and has also paid shipping and Customs (and I try to support locals) but when I can import 2 sets of the product (or buy another different one in the same price range )and still save some money, then something is not right there.
Some are just high prices, others are also great quality. Always buy with your ears, and don't think that cheaper is always worse. But if you find the right DAC, amp, speakers, it can get pretty nice. And yes, cables do make a difference. Not all of them, but some definitely do.
I can't agree more with you. Thank you very much for this video and that approach. It's mine too
Really nice video Guido. It was always logical to me that the price performance ratio in hi fi is not linear and that the higher you go the farther apart the lines go. I always comfort myself that the really, really expensive stuff exists only that the elite can have a suitable spending options. For gods sake, there are speaker cabels being sold whitch cost more than a new hybrid Toyota rav4 or even a new Tesla. It just doesnt make any sense.
In the spirit of your endeavor i want to make shout out. There is small Dutch company called EC Designs. It is run buy two genious brothers which dedicated their past 10 years to produce the "perfect DAC".
Last year they put on the shelf their Power Dac R. I took a risk and bought it. Let me just say that i use a Rega P3 with, AT740ML and Rega Phono MK3 and the need for using those fell drasticly. I still do it because i love vinyl, but sonicly i wouldn't need to.
Love your channel.
Greetings from Slovenia.
Interesting, thanks!
One thing I can add, there is a discussion about record weights, do they make a difference? I have the Clearaudio Outer Ring and with my old tonearm, there was a minor improvement, specially in the bass but not so much that I would pay full price on that thing (I got mine very cheap). Now I made a major upgrade with my tonearm and my Phone stage and the impact this weight has is doubled, maybe more. Same I think is with cables, if you have a high resolving system, there is maybe a reason to invest, but if you are on a budget, I would not recommend it.
I agree with your assessment. The prices vs quality you get do not match. On top of that, when a company makes a slight upgrade on a unit, It can be a better feet on a turntable, it increases the price by hundreds of dollars. If this trend continues, they will kill this beautiful passion. To make matters worst, you have to wait for months to get the unit you want. I noticed that companies do not keep in stock a lot of the entry level models and force you to buy the higher cost units.
In 1976, I bought a high end audio system, spending a total of between $6000.00 -$7000.00 on it. I loved the system but something just didn't seem right; it seemed that it just wasn't reaching it's full potential. As fate would have it, I read an article in Audio magazine (by the late, great Bert Whyte) on moving coil cartridges. In my system, I was using a Shure V15, type III. I'm not sure if he specifically mentioned the cartridge that I then replaced the V15, type III with, but I purchased a Supex SD-900 super, with it's small cartridge amp. I cannot adequately express the difference that this change made in the system. My wife at the time, who was not an audiophile, said simply "That's incredible!" referring to the difference. Interesting how one apparently small change made such a profound difference.
We used to drive into Tower Records, in Hollywood, to buy the latest Japanese pressings of releases that we liked. There was quite a difference in the quality of those releases as opposed to the ones made in this country.
Here in Argentina the barriers set up by authorities to not to import in order to preserve dollars are so Hugo that some stores sell products in Mercadolibre (a kind of Latam Amazon) with prices much higher than those of Aliexpress but easier to get.
“The Law of diminishing returns”….
Very interesting. I was fascinated by your comments regarding speakers, amps and then media. Surely it’s your source that’s the most important, be it turntable/arm/cartridge or CD player, tape deck or streamer. An old hi-fi saying still rings true - garbage in garbage out. No matter how good your amp or speakers are if they are being fed with rubbish then they will output rubbish. They can’t magically improve the source.
No, TTs and CD players dont affect the sound much at all compared to speakers and carts. Especially in digital its snakoil.
Sounds like something peddled in the 1980’s by magazines in the pockets of a certain manufacturer of ‘esteemed’ turntables. No point in losing a high fidelity signal in substandard amplification and speakers. If anything I’d put my money in the best loudspeaker I could, spend as much as I need to on amplification based on how loud I want it to play, not worry too much about digital (very little variance), choose a decent sensibly engineered turntable paying the most attention to the shape and condition of the stylus tip and whether the cartridge has a suitable compliance for the arm weight. Any budget I had for cables would be spent on better quality components in the first place and then I’d forget about the thing and just enjoy listening to it.
@@jhuc2869 This.
Hi good video I'm agree with you the most important for me is Speakers amplifiers and media, thanks.
Preach, just loom at what resale will pay. Easy. Also in the industry the employ a standard markup model.
Hmm, why do I sudddenly think of a certain Danish brand?
Yet a great video mate. Stay awesome.
😆
It's Boulder isn't it? Wink, wink
In general I agree with you Guido, but I think there is a diminishing returns situation as you step up the ladder, the first $ gets the most, the 2nd $ a little less and so on. As audiophiles I guess we have already agreed to pay for the lesser gains that the next step brings. Additionally it's hard to quantify what the gains are between the steps, is it 10% is it 50%? It's what we are willing to pay for those last few % that drives the market. Thanks for all you bring to your channel, love the content.
He talked about that.
Love the channel Guido. Are you able to purchase movie audio on vinyl and sync them with the movie video? Then you could listen to movies through your awesome system.
Never tried! 😆
Especially for gear such as amplifiers are quite well understood technology now.
You don’t need to spend a ton of money to get a high resolution stereo amplifier, with super low distortion to get a good accurate sound.
Same with preamps and other gear. Speakers are about the only thing that actually cost a lot to get performance.
Get a benchmark preamp and amp and you are pretty much done.
You are exactly correct, those are the reasons high end audio is so expensive.
These things are talismans for the wealthy. They purchase high-end equipment and never use it. This is just one of their trophies they can show off. Unfortunately, the true audiophiles have to pay this exuberant amount because we need it. High end equipment will eventually die when there is no one left who understands the quality of good music and no one can afford it.
I’m currently developing a hifi product and the costs are a lot more than most would imagine. Small market, hand crafted all put costs up. Some brands are surely overcharging though because many who buy these products are pretty wealthy and even like the high costs as bragging rights. That’s where internet comes in to get feedback from those who have experience.
Interesting! Give us some details on the issues and positive aspects you are encountering
Bravo Guido! I just would add that in my opinion, if you play vinyls, I would consider more important a very good phono preamp than integranted amplifier. The phono preamp change completely the sound, in my experience much more than ... cable! LOL
Absolutely true, I wrote preamp in the video...including a phono preamp!
👍👍❤️ Excellent points you bring up explains everything very nicely a lot of information that was useful PS you look very handsome all in black
Thank you so much! 😊
The quality of recordings, (vinyl or CD) ... will determine how your system sounds (at any price) A high quality recording will make, even an average system sound fantastic.
GIGO=garbage in garbage out.
Strongly agree.
This used to be my mantra too, but I would now say that it depends on the system that we are talking about. I assure you that it is possible to build a system that is not too sensitive to the quality of the source material, e.g. nos soviet tubes add a bit of magic sonic makeup to every recording, in exchange for some clarity in soundstage positioning, etc. Resolution is not always your friend.
You keep telling yourself that, but it's really more complicated IMHO. Without a very good gig, you can't tell the good editions from the truly great
Only the speakers can change the radiation pattern of sound reaching your ears eg omnis, bipoles/dipole, wide dispersion box speakers.
The crazy thing about audio is that with a few capacitors and voltage regulators you can upgrade existing equipment to levels that seem unimaginable. Sure it takes a lot of experimentation on your own system and warranty goes bye bye, but the results can be shocking. The most revealing thing is that just using high end components doesn't mean it will sound better, you actually have to try different combinations of components and that can take a lot of time. What's worse is that if I take a modified DAC that sounds great in my system, but put it in another system it might not sound as good as the cheap DAC it is replacing, because so much is system dependent. There is a very real possibility that buying a Gryphon amp will leave me with a system and sound that doesn't sound good to my ears, in my room and in my own system. I'm currently saving for a Gryphon Diablo 300, but in the back of my mind I am fully ready that it might not be the 'upgrade' that I was hoping for, especially since I've extensively modified my existing amp and tuned it to work in harmony with every other element in the audio chain. Spending tons of money on OEM speakers, amps, DACs and cables can be a big gamble. Some combinations might work, but it is no guarantee.
Good point!
@@anadialog A fool and his money are soon parted. That's all you need to know.
I have an ADCOM GFA-555 power amp. When I bought it 30 years ago, the tech at the retailer had a simple upgrade (two capacitors changed and a bias adjustment) that made a very noticeable improvement in the sound quality. I still have that amp and I'm very happy with it.
A lot of home truths in this video. Thoroughly enjoyed it.
I can follow the pricing up until nagra (highest quality made in Switzerland etc). more than that, I struggle... in any case I'm extremely satisfied with my system which is almost all second hand... :)
On a related tip: what do you think of SKW’s power cables? Been considering upgrading the power cable for my PrimaLuna tube amp.
Waste of money most likely.
Hi I’ve spent a fortune over the years on HI Fi, the higher you go the much higher you need to go to get any improvement it’s the point of diminishing returns
The late 80's: Wilson audio seems to have started "Arbitrary high prices". $500 in parts inside corian cabinets for nearly 20 grand a pair. Other companies followed suit to command respect in the snob-o-sphere. They will round up from 20 to 30 grand or even 50 grand past profit. Paradigm, energy, Mirage all did tons of R&D at the NRC in Canada. They didn't charge as much as a car for products. They also measure better than a lot of boutique speakers.
Do you plan to do a video about accoustic room treatment? I mean in the "mastering room" sens, the real room treatment (diffusers, bass traps, speaker positions, standing waves, analysis softwares, etc..), not snake-oiling things like having rare wood from Venus monitor shelves or other jokes.
What I've in mind, you guessed it, is the acoustic of the room itself can maybe have a greater impact on the sound you hear than silver AC cables costing 1000€/m.
But it's sometimes easier to "buy something more" than adapting our room for optimal listening conditions, an hi-end CD transport or a pair of costly speaker dampers have a better WAF than 2 big bass traps in the corners and a cloud diffusers on the ceiling 😀
Furthermore we love gear and an expensive new DAC is sexier than 2 mattress hanging on the walls. But well, we also have to face the realities of physic.
Acoustic treatment is paramount! I recently treated a room where I work. Maybe I will do a video about it because I can't do anything at my home, wife doesn't approve! ;-) In any casebI am lucky because my listening environment is "naturally" treated as explained in a few of my video. For example here: ruclips.net/video/wiWHXzu7wAE/видео.html
You are telling it like it is. Can you review the Benchmark AHB2 amplifier? Price and spec are incredible.
Coda just had to raise their prices but I have to suggest their no.8 power amp. Its amazing. For 5200... Im set for a very long time. Highly recommend them :).
(May not pair well with some balanced tube pre amps :p)
*THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!*
When you get into the realm of high end HIFI, then you get the effects of diminishing returns on the sound quality vs the price tag.
In 35 of passion I learned at my expense that the most beautiful hifi devices, made with the most beautiful materials, with the best technical measures and the most expensive, were not the best in absolute terms musically speaking! there are a lot of shadows and glitter that are very often useless on a lot of so-called "High End" devices!
Sooner or later someone will be selling a newly designed Nakamichi tape deck with a fake Tanashin tape transport for crazy price.
Awesome video. Maybe we could do a video together. There is a pretty big used vinyl exhibition in Verona, Ex Arsenale (Fiera dei Vinili) around the 7th or 10th of October. I think you would like it, plus you have some pretty awesome food waiting for you outside.
you got it then the Tom Evans phono stage good for you! did you get the 25th anniversary!
Perfect direct example: I have listened/tested the analog output of the oppo 203 (rca output) vs 205 (XLR output, better dac on paper, op amps and toroidal transformer).
Both connected to the same amp and speakers (I have tried out from regular cds up to dsd)...
Well... After hours of listening in the demo showroom, the differences were so negligible to my ears (203 performances where between 95-97% compared to the 205 and I had to be veeery concentrated. Meditation level) that at the end I went out the shop with a new and shiny 203 and +915€ in my pocket.
Infact, my initial intention was to purchase the 205. 😂
Great video. Agree with the comment on turntable’s towards the end. This is an area where one can easily over spend. Phono stages are more critical as long as the turntable is of a reasonable standard in build quality, isolation, timing etc. Cartridge are also have more influence on the sound.
crazy machining like jeff roland stuff
you're looking very professorial today :)
Most of us have known this for a long time but very interesting and great presentation
Voodoo physics and audio standards
Very rare to see a b blind testing
$1,000 interconnects ?
Gravity canceling support blocks ?
Ego feeding frenzy.... I've been affected with that off and on
Agreed, there is voodoo in hi-fi but for a serious discussion on "blind" testing c.f. Hans Beekhuyzen
While I agree with a lot of what you've said, there is one point that you didn't mention: the time frame. What I mean by that is companies have to decide how long they think a particular product is going to sell before it ends up sitting on a shelf either in their factories or in a retailer's store, and they have to heavily discount. If they have a superior product, they know that their competitors are working hard to bring out something even better and that will happen over time. That time frame has to incorporate all the costs involved in making the product and if they are still selling it strongly at the end of that time they will start making real money.. If, on the other hand, they haven't recovered their costs before sales fall away, they could well lose a lot.
Good point
The biggest con of all was the small foil triangles, you put on the corners of your doors, door handles and pick up arms, amongst other places in your listening room. These changed the psychoacoustic properties of the room. (Ha Ha). Red ones were given free as samples with a hi fi mag, but you could buy more by post, or even better buy silver ones which were dearer, or buy gold ones which were the ultimate in gullibility.
I've spend less than 1000 euro buying B&W DM4 from the 70's...NAD 3155 from the 80's...a Technics cd player from thew 80's and a Micro Seiki turntable from the 70's and the ifi phonostage of nowadays ...the system sounds AMAZING in my room and in my house, I really don't know how could improve this magnificent sound , of course if I had a bigger house and a bigger room it would be completely another topic....any way you should review speakers like B&W DM series...Kef 104ab and 104/s....AR 3/10/11....various 70's JBL....Celestion 44/66 etc...they are INCREDIBLE speaker even today and they are beautiful and well build as well.
I cannot see this high price situation easing. I think the high prices in HIFI attract many players into the market. It never ceases to amaze me the number of companies that are there to supply a small market. I myself buy very little from dealers and focus on consumer direct. That way high profit margins of middle men and dealers are avoided and taxes are reduced.
Also, in reference to one of your last points, I REALLY owe you a *BIG* 'Thank You' for your wonderful video about good quality interconnects that don't have to be super expensive. Thanks to YOU my friend, I now have a lovely pair of the Zavfino Arcadia interconnects which you rated as the 'high quality' interconnects ($165) which goes from my SMSL DO200 DAC to my amps and also a lovely pair of the Oyaide lower cost ($40) interconnects which sound perfectly fine on my secondary system. *THANK YOU!!!* 😁
On a separate note... Unfortunately I cannot find the nice materials you suggested (and linked to, but the links don't work) for making your own quality Power Cord. So, probably down the line, I might just hafta go with a reasonably priced Pangea, which uses Cardas OFC wire. Unless of course (although you didn't answer my other messages about this) you feel like kindly providing new links to the wire and connectors so that I can get them, thanks! 😊
Oh no! Sorry I didn't answer...someone did tell me about the links, maybe it was you. In any case now they work.
This is where I get it: www.audiophonics.fr/en/cable-metre-cables-secteur/yarbo-sp-1100pw-triple-shielded-power-cable-occ-553mm-o165mm-p-6456.html
But you can find it on Chinese eBay and aliexpress sites. Hopefully they are genuine, after all it is made in China. Go for it, it is just the best power cable out there...and it can also be an excellent speaker cable too.
@@anadialog Awesome! Thank you kindly sir! 😊
@@anadialogSorry to bother you again sir, but the link you provide above is the video about 'Free tips' for Audio. There is nothing there showing me where to buy the wire you suggested or the connectors to make our own power chord 😢
Ok I corrected the link, sorry. In any case the link in the video description has always worked. Please make sure to always check the video description below a video. All info is always there! :-)
The correct link for the cable is in the comment above. For the connectors:
www.audiophonics.fr/en/cable-metre-cables-secteur/yarbo-sp-1100pw-triple-shielded-power-cable-occ-553mm-o165mm-p-6456.html
For the other connector just look for Neotech OCC connector. If these are too expensive I suggest this: www.audiophonics.fr/en/fiches-secteur-connecteurs-iec/furutech-fi-11-cu-connector-iec-alpha-o18mm-p-2212.html
For the plug it depends where you live. Just look for the same type!
@@anadialog Thanks Bro for taking the time to post this. At least I do have a cable brand now to check, even though the link I think in is France, but I'll see if I can find one here in the US. I kind of figured that any connectors that are either gold or Rhodium plated should be fine. I think that there are a ton of them on Amazon. Thanks again!
Hi interesting topic, do you think your Luxman was worth its money 💰🤔
Hi,
You are right about high end stereo equipment cost lot to make but $100k for an amp?what is it made of gold and diamonds? as we know most audio company make their stuff in China and still charge the same as before making it in United state or euroup I have a pair of psb imagine2 made in China also a pair of kef speakers also made in China at low cost but they don't pass the saving to customers don't you think it's greed?
It's the distributer that are jacking up the prices. They don't have the expenses to material, production and research cost but want to make the same as the production company. It's just crazy.
But I must admit audiophile sources are although getting more and more expensive. 80,-- for a CD, 200,-- for one LP, more and more it s to high
But I agree with you, speakers, amps are key.
I was told from someone in the audio Industrie that companies have a good estimation of what a product should sell for but before they put the sticker on they compare their product to that of the competition sound wise. If it sounds better it will be automatically more expensive than the competition even if it cost less to,produce. That is the simple reason why expensive almost every time equals good. There is no bargain to have.
Whats good is subjective.
Now that is even more sad...
Some random points:
Quality means more than just sound quality. The best sounding equipment can be very fragile - finicky even. But very expensive equipment is often very durable and flexible in addition to being high precision and very good sounding. Much of the quality that people pay for is not sound quality. It's real quality, but it isn't audible.
Industrial design - style, is an art. If you want beautiful things, the designer can set their own price, and it will be worth whatever people are willing to pay. At the high end, high price, style is a larger factor in terms of price than it is in commodity equipment. I don't argue with appealing design costing more, but again, it doesn't affect the sound.
We see such high prices now because there is a market for it. In the 1960s and 1970s there was a certain amount of appetite for expensive audio equipment, but the market was really quite small compared to the market for moderate and low priced equipment. Now with the aging population of the first generation that was dedicated to high quality home audio we have a lot of people who are willing to splurge and spend a lifetime of savings on stereo gear. It's actually pretty neat because it means that some really fantasy level stuff is being made, and hopefully even some advances in the fundamental technology, engineering and design. But it also creates tension in the market to have these luxury items that are so out of the realm of attainability for new young enthusiasts that they can make the field look elitist and unwelcoming. I personally think the high end luxury audio stuff is fascinating and I enjoy it from afar. I don't let it spoil my appreciation of things that are much more down to earth.
I am really fascinated to hear our host say that the high prices don't necessarily come with great sound. It only stands to reason of course. But I'm impressed that he's taking a stand and just saying so without reservations. I'm really curious about where he stands on the concept of diminishing returns and where he thinks various components start to just cost more than they're really improving, specifically in terms of sound quality. I'll be up front about my own feelings on that topic: I think the sound to cost ratio is at its best roughly where the greatest number of items are sold. There's a lot of competition for loudspeaker sales between $2,000 and $4,000, so I think that's the point at which there are some really great deals. I do think $5,000 speakers sound better, but not by the same ratio that they cost. I'm sure $16,000 speakers sound better still, but again, not eight times better, more like 20% better.
Thanks Guido for the channel. It's one of my favorites and one I doubt I'll ever grow tired of.
Thank you for your thoughts. I agree but I think that more companies should put the maximum effort and leave aside design if that has to increase the cost by 2 or 3 times. Quality way to many times overlaps luxury and they must be distinguished some times, not always, but the majority IMO should follow that idea.
I would like to add that in terms of diminishing returns, it is very hard to assess that because prices do not reflect in most cases the product true price. Take for example the mono block of Dagostino in my video thumbnail. That retails at 295.000$ (and you need 2 for a stereo system). You are simply beyond hifi, your just pure luxury and status symbol. If I should fix a price, 10k for each component is probably the limit of the law...but again, it does not make much sense...too many variables and different approaches...
Anyway, my speakers (Fyne 502) represent 12.5 % of my total rig outlay. And they are the only component that I bought from new! Apart from that, most of my money went into the amplification at a whopping 77 % (EAR 864 + Plinius SA 103). That said, I will upgrade my speakers as soon as the divorce goes through! Only kidding, I think?
My buddies uncle owns a high end brick and mortar shop and he said speakers are where the money is for them. If you pay a grand for a pair of speakers , it cost the shop 500.
Try DOGE and Kinki Studio products for great performance at lower prices because they are factory direct.
Nice!
Good video. I’m surprised you’re keeping the Kuzma given its very high price and only marginal gain in sound quality over what you have. In any case I’m glad you calling these issues out. Things are getting ridiculous.
I must admit that I am surprised too...and not that convinced in fact...I actually don't know what to do...in fact I am using my EMT for a while!
Budget gear is amazing today (Emotiva, Schiit). I disagree about vinyl (OCD Mikey breaks it down) but to each their own. I agree about speakers. I got lucky and found some awesome used speakers.
Every chain is as strong as its weakest link. From my experience in recording studio's I found out, that, in order to reproduce high end audio, you need to pay attention to the quality of the recording, mixing and mastering technique, applied to the product. So, analogue recordings which have been digitalized still have their limitations, which would not require high end equipment to reproduce their full range. Even digital recordings (DDD) may contain flaws and interference, due to low or mid-range studio quality . The best result would be achieved by using WAV-files, directly from the studio-mix itself. If not available, the CD should be HQ as well. Even top quality recordings can be compromised by an inadequate mix. It's important to know who did the job. In my view, modern Berliner Filharmonic Orchestra recordings are an example of how it should be done, in terms of transparency, balance and dynamics. In this case your high end very expensive gear would reach its full potential. The next question would be, if your ear drums have not been compromised by your headphone or high volumes. After all, your body is on the receiving end of the spectrum. So, a hearing test should be made part of the total experience. The frequency range of your hearing capacity would decide whether you get value for money. And a bit of studio experience would come in handy as well. You would not only enjoy the composition, arrangement and performance of the song, but also the way it is recorded, produced and mixed. Again, you won't need to spend a lot of money to have a good time with your favorite music. I, for one, use a Yamaha receiver, Fostex master CD recorder/player (plays WAV-files) and Monitor Audio speakers. Total not exceeding 1500 euro. Sufficient to have studio quality at home.
And don´t forget, when you listening music on your system....
Spend a few more bucks in a good listening chair!
If you sitting comfortable, you diving deeper into your music!
So, sit back and relax......
How do you look at high end products manufactured in China? Similarly high end gear are manufactured by Chinese brands such as Xindak Audio-g, China etc. Please give me your views on those.
There are lot of high quality brands from China, I agree, and the cost is much better than Western brands.
What you say is true but I think if you do your research and buy wisely you can get a great system without paying over the top prices. Having said that I would expect to be spending thousands not hundreds to achieve this. There is also the law of diminishing returns as you go up the price scale. You may get improvements in sound quality but they may well be small improvements and really not worth paying three or four times the price for.
I agree
Insane....I love music, I'm not expert at all and not an audiophile personal.
I just love music..
I decided recently to buy surround for films, I also love movies..I spent a lot of money and time on research and I got a good setup for movies..
But for music it's not good, just sounds ok. I was looking to feel amazed..so after spending so much money I can't just change the system now..
I decided to buy good set of headphones and call it the day...I researched and found the end game headphones and bought them...but then I found out that I will need an amplifier to drive them and also dac and cables etc.....suddenly I'm 5 to 6 times spending more then I expected....
It's very frustrating cause now after having everything in place after buying , Dap, 2 amps, Dac, 2 headphones and lots of accessories and cables I feel that my normal in ear phones connected to my phone sounds very close to all this unreasonably expensive stuff..I feel cheated really I spent totally 30k USD and I thought I will be able to just close my eyes and listen to music in lots of joy and bliss..that's not the case, I now find myself trying to convince myself it's really so good..but it's not. It's a not ending circle cause now either I somehow sell everything and keep it simple, or try to get more stuff to try compliment the stuff I have...
I'm very annoyed frustrated and sad, I'm not rich but i put my savings trying to enjoy what I love , just feel I threw money to garbage..
Just buy equipment for couple hundreds maximum and you'll have same quality as tens of thousands..
I tried some 630 000$ headphones and then some 500$ ones, couldnt tell much difference.
Interesting story. If I understand correctly you are using your surround system for music?
Apart from that, that is why we audiophiles are always with the monkey on our shoulder, we sense that it isn't perfect and we know it can get better...and in the end you jump on another horse until you see something that looks better...I would sell everything after you have researched at length what will satisfy you or simply refer to a pro. It will cost a lot but if it is a serious person it will make the most out of your listening environment.
@@anadialog well, I didn't mean to use it for Music at all, I'm using denon AVC-A110 and bowers wilkins Speakers the front left and right are 705 signature ..
Anyways, they feel very accurate and sharp but for some reason not exciting if it makes sense, they don't raise my emotions thru listening to music..so, because my wife had enough with my expenses and space consuming I thought to try and go into headphones..I like more vintage and more intimate sound, less technical and less "emotionless" sound...again I'm not audiophile person so I don't know the technical language, I just know when the sound is right for my ears...I actually heard this sound over demos on RUclips a lot, so I know exactly what I'm after...I just never thought it's so expensive and that I need so many equipments to fulfill it..I'm totally with about 25k headphones equipment spending and about 20k surround its about 30k over my initial wanting and willing to spend. Now I'm wating for all the rest of equipment for the headphones I got, 2 expensive headphones to cover few sound ranges, solid state amp, tube amp, DAC, portable dac, IEM , cables and other accessories..all I was thinking in beginning that I only will buy high quality headphones and that's it..
.but now I realize that probably the difference between high end stuff might be noticed by graphs and computer analytics and less by the ears. I guess I pay big lesson fees about this area, Will for sure try to sell most my things as they are useless to me, and even if they sound good, they for sure don't sound like 40k worth sound, maybe some hundreds of dollars is the correct spending area and still get good quality with great sound...I just don't get it why it's like this...feels not fair haha.
And now I'm even thinking about turntables for the Nostalgia feeling and the not so accurate sound, the more older sound if it makes sense..
But whatever looking for it's just so confusing, and I like high quality , but there are so many things and so many reviews, also every day new stuff are being suggested and it never end.
Bottom line, I'm just looking to put music on and just sink into bliss..while at home, or on the go so on..hoped it would of been more simple, but now I find myself trying to learn electricity that has to do with sound and frequencies etc...very frustrating.
A common opinion is that amps are just passive conduits through which either a good or bad signal is routed and are therefore secondary in importance to the source. I don't think so. They are extraction devices. A good amp can get the best out of a mediocre source in a way a poor amp can't. Therefore I would take a good amp and average source over a good source and average amp any day.
I don't think so.The source is the most important aspect to quality sound. Then comes the room.
Great video and subject Guido. But let‘s be clear here: There is „high end“ gear, that is way above what you are describing! I know of some companies (some of them here in Switzerland) that are producing crazy expensive high end gear for people with own jets and super yachts, not your average audiophile! We are talkng about a single channel mono amp that costs over €250k! Yes... you read it right... two hundred and fifty thousand Euros!! For a stereo installation, that is half a million Euros! 😉
No no, I am describing exactly that plus other more normal stuff. The amp in the thumbnail of the video is a Dan D'Agostino Relentless monoblock that retails at....295K$ and it's a monoblock, meaning that you need 2 for a stereo system ;-)
Most important thing is high quality prerecorded media, even you have high end source item, amplifier or speakers...
I said the same at the end of the video :-)
Bravo!!! You hit the nail on the head. Some reviewers should watch your video Every time I I see a high-dollar pierce, I know the review will be nothing but a love fest.
The high products is nice but I have started to find people really taking liberties so I don't bother with named brands anymore
Agreeeee