Sign up to my free newsletter, I might be sending out some pitch accent tips and tricks in the future! mattvsjapan.com If you're interested in learning pitch accent, I recommend Dogen's pronunciation course: patreon.com/dogen
How could Japanese education and Japanese-English DICTIONARIES FFS be so oblivious (or so neglectfully non-comprehensive) for so long? English dictionaries have marked the accents of words for hundreds of years now. It has been STANDARD
@@과자-z8o Standard Korean doesn't have pitch accent. It uses pitch for a lot of things, but it's not an accent system. The example you provided actually is proof that it's a pitch accent system because the emphasis is overriding how you normally say it. Regional dialects of Korean do have pitch accent. (Most places in 경상도 for example.) Just to be sure, Standard / Seoul Korean makes use of pitch in its phonology to a significant extent. The way it uses pitch is not called pitch accent.
(Probably not gonna see this but) correct me if I'm wrong, but how can you say that George made pitch accent mistakes, when George said in his video that pitch accent is very different in different parts of Japan?
@@saebre. I like spelling as an analogy. Different English speaking regions have different spelling rules, but if you (1) spell something in a way no large group of natives do, then it's a "mistake," (2) mix all the major spelling patterns (sometimes American, sometimes British, sometimes Canadian, sometimes Indian) in one piece of writing, that would be seen as inaccurate and inconsistent, and (3) spell 90% of things American, but randomly mix in other spellings here and there, most copy editors will mark that as a inaccuracy. (1) is clearly a mistake. (2) and (3) depend on context and the person's background. From what I can tell, he's mostly doing (1) and, in the case (2) and (3), even when a Japanese person would say what he said, it's neither Aomori or Tokyo dialect, which means it's a mistake that coincidentally is valid in another region.
You want to know if your pitch accent is bad? Spend some time with kids. I work in a Japanese junior high school and let me tell you.. those kids will absolutely let you know if you're pronouncing something weird. They of course don't know about concepts like pitch accent, but they have no problem making fun of you for the way you pronounce something.
@@IsraelCervantes-le4gf It's not necessarily fake niceness, they might genuinely not want to hurt your feelings. That's called tact, which is different from being fake. Being fake would be if they were being polite even though they didn't care about your feelings at all.
We’re happy when western ppl speak good Japanese, very true. We will never correct any kind of mistakes unless we know its appreciated. The more you’re correct with pitch accents the more impressed we are. FACT.
7:31 “The real value in studying pitch accent is not to try to use the rules in real time. It’s that it allows you to unlock your perception.” Hit the nail on the head with that one. I appreciate how concisely you put it into words. As a native Cantonese speaker, I can’t stress how true this is. Great video. I love the way you speak in general and hope that it will help me improve my speaking skills too.
The difference can be summed up this way. George is an obvious gaijin who speaks Japanese really well. With Matt, it's like, "Wait. Are you part Japanese? You grew up in Japan, right? You scared me a little there." 😂 That said, there are many foreigners who live in Japan that speak Japanese at a (near) native level, pronunciation included. Many Chinese, Koreans, and Russians stand out, in my opinion. People whose native language is English always tend to have some little, yet very noticeable accent. I guess that's why Matt just so stands out... When he speaks Japanese, I hear no (noticeable) accent whatsoever! So yeah, pitch accent does make a great difference. It's not crucial for making yourself understood, of course, but it's the difference between a gaijin and (being mistaken for) a part-Japanese!
The fact that pitch accent in Japanese is equivalent to stress accent in English should make it clear how important it is for proper pronunciation. Edit: Never said your pronunciation has to be perfect.
As a native English speaker, I can tell you that I was not taught about word stresses until like college. We may have mentioned it before in passing, but barely discussed it. Like most native English speakers, I learned word stresses/emphasis naturally, through hearing other people say the words and essentially copying them. That's why I don't think pitch accent is really important to study, unless you're trying to perfect your Japanese. I'm about 7 months into my Japanese learning, and I've noticed recently that I tend to pronounce the pitches to most of the words I use correctly. For example, 髪 vs 神. But no one taught me these pitch accents. I have been doing audio listening, like podcasts. And my primary anki deck uses audio from native Japanese speakers. As I repeat what they say and mimic them, over time, I start picking up the pitch accent. It's only when I think about it, or hear the wrong version, that I really notice the pitch accent. Right now, becoming fluent and being able to read and listen to Japanese, as well as communicate, is more important to me. That's my just two cents. Of course, I'm not saying you can't focus on pitch accent. I'm a fan of MattVsJapan and have used a lot of Refold's strategy. I just personally don't think it's worth the focus until you're advanced and quite fluent in Japanese and trying to become an expert.
@@R0Tl Pitch accent doesn't need to be a focus. It's just in the background. The choice is to ignore it or to not ignore it. Your brain didn't ignore it, and now you know the right pitch for words. But not everyone is like you in that a lot of people become fluent in Japanese and don't realize they're using the wrong pitch accents. So for them, it's an active choice, one anyone can easily make near the beginning to start noticing pitch.
I disagree. As far as I’m aware, stress accent (in this sort of context) is only to differentiate verbs vs nouns when the word is the same. Any other homophones are the same. Other types of English stress patterns aren’t even close to being comparable. Pitch accent is far more common for distinguishing homophones in Japanese, but it’s still not all of them. There are plenty of homophones that have the exact same pitch accent and kanji/context is the only way of knowing. Sometimes kanji is the only way. “Hair” and “paper” have the exact same pitch accent. Not only can you cut both, but you can cut both with scissors. While they serve similar purposes (distinguishing homophones), English stress accent has a far narrower, much more specific usage, so I would fervently disagree that they are “equivalent”.
I agree with both of you. To use a metaphor, you are trying to train people to be professional chefs and George is trying to teach people to be home cooks. What someone wants to become is really up to them. Some will find all the gratification they need in just being able to cook something that they think tastes good, others will want to learn to cook well enough to impress other chefs. I think that's what the whole pitch accent debate comes down to.
Very well said! I was trying to find the words to say exactly that. And damn I would like to mimic some professional cooking technics and recipes for fun but after a certain point enough is enough. From personal experience, speaking to foreigners or me being the foreigner, conversations light up and there is real connection and joy when there are interesting topics, honesty and good intentions. At that point (at least for me) the other's pronunciation becomes something you just embrace, like a haircut they have and you didn't like when you first met them but now you think "it's actually kind of fun", if that makes sense. On the contrary I've been disappointed by people who just nail the pronunciation and at first and super-impress you (because let's admit it, a foreigner speaking your not-that-popular language with a good pronunciation _is_ exciting). I think of that as a firework. After a few minutes your excitement caused by their well-trained pronunciation starts plummeting and you are left with the core of what they are saying and who they are, which is sometimes disappointing. *On top of that, if both me and the other person are foreigners I sometimes catch myself starting to actually like _their_ characteristic foreign pronunciation but that's another story.
i think that misses matt's point though; it's really not that difficult to train yourself to hear pitch accent, and even if you only want to be a "home cook" you can be a much better one with really not much more time or effort.
But pitch accent isn't as hard to learn as people make out - otherwise how would anyone learn truly tonal languages? To use your metaphor, it's like being a home cook who ignores seasoning. Sure they've made the dish, and it seems just like the real thing. But with just a tiny bit more effort sprinkled on top, you can really make it taste amazing.
@@moonlitspud is it _that_ easy or to keep going with those cooking metaphors, it's like having to go to the super market first to buy the herbs and spices and then you can just use them? Because I can certainly understand why someone would not want to go through that then, when they just want to make a dish 😂. On the contrary if you're passionate about learning a language you can go through every obstacle.
3 года назад+116
I discovered pitch accent because in a conversation I meant to say one thing and it sounded like something completely unrelated because of the pitch I used, and a Japanese person pointed it out to me. So yes, pitch accent might not be the be all, end all of Japanese language learning, but if you dismiss it as "unimportant" I would conclude you just don't know what you're talking about.
@@mathew2378 while using English's stress patterns as a metaphor is better than nothing at all, it's not even half story. In english the difference between 1-"SYllable" and 2-"syLLAble" is *stark* no.1-length is 2-1-1 no.2-length is 1-2-1 no.1-volume is 3-1-1 no.2-volume is 1-3-2 no.1-pitch is 2-1-1 no.2-pitch is 1-3-1 And lastly, the phonemes themselves are different: SYllable is pronounced /ˈsɪləbəl/ Meanwhile syLLAble is pronounced /ˈsɪlæbəl/ In japanese though, the length is the same, the volume is the same, the phonemes are the same, the _Only_ difference is pitch.
I love that despite you and George not exactly agreeing and sharing same ideas that you guys can collaborate in some kind of different ways and still produce constructive content for the community
I like your content Matt, but I side with George on this. 1. you don't actually appear to be addressing his actual point. Instead you're misrepresenting what his position on this it. a. George isn't saying PA isn't important. If a beginner wants to spend time studying PA then they can. George's point is that studying PA isn't necessary. ie: not studying PA doesn't necessarily entail a person will be 'bad' at Japanese speaking to the point where they are not easily understood. 2. George's argument is exactly in line with my own personal experiences - I spent 0 hours studying PA and it hasn't hampered my experience talking with Japanese people; especially my Japanese relatives (my wife's side). 3. Your own responses actually refute your own position and prove George's. a. George isn't saying PA isn't important to Japanese people, and the clip you included shows that *even native Japanese make PA mistakes. And these aren't beginner foreigners. ie: PA isn't necessary for a beginner to study, because even native Japanese who have studied it still make errors that need correcting. b. You even acknowledge/concede that you can understand what George is saying in that clip *despite the PA errors you point out. Which is George's point: one doesn't necessarily need accurate PA to be able to speak Japanese that can be understood. 4. I asked my wife to listen to some of your own videos of you speaking Japanese and she could tell that you are not a native Japanese - she picked up on the fact that you're a foreigner. So despite your studies with PA it doesn't appear to have yielded you a native sound. In summery: George and I are saying that if a beginner wants to also add PA to their studies as they start out then they can, but it's not a necessary aspect. A beginner is still capable of speaking comprehensible Japanese without having to study PA.
I've watched both videos, it has been interesting listening to both sides of this discussion. George made a really interesting point in his video that wasn't brought up here. "Language is a tool to communicate, not an art to perfect." Having thought about this, I disagree with George's take. I think language can be both a tool and an art. Each person has different goals when learning a language. Some just want to become communicative (a tool) while others strive to master their second language (an art). It might be worthwhile for people consider whether their second language's value is as a tool, an art, or both.
I don't think either side is aiming for perfection, to be fair. I think the real disagreement is that of doing literally nothing to improve your pitch accent, and doing just a little (for example, use and try to internalize dogan's course).
I mainly agree with that quote, although wouldn't a little accent practice make language more effective as a tool? Taking it all the way to Matt's level could probably be considered an art, but just a couple hours on pitch practice helps so so much
Every language is an art, and pitch accent isn't discounted from Japanese's unique syntax and grammar. Pitch accent is part of that tool, it's a small part yet produces a big impact. Of course this is my opinion because I don't want people fighting here and there. Just study pitch accent, it's important.
I think George's main point is he doesn't want new learners to get overwhelmed and think about quitting and that they should only learn pitch accent if they're very enthusiastic about the language, and I think that's the fair point to make.
They thing is tho, which kind of negates his whole argument, is that in the refold method pitch accent is not focused on/studied until wayyy far in the process. By the time its recommended u start working on ur pitch accent, u will have been learning the language for so long that ur already committed. Its not something that is supposed to be studied as a beginner. Im interested to see how this is discussed in the debate.
@@remsy9935 Of course, but a lot of beginners do stumble upon videos about pitch accents and then feel like it's too much. I saw several people in George's comments who said things like "I was discouraged about learning Japanese because of pitch accent but your video made me feel better".
@@megamannt125 I bet most people like that won't even seriously learn Japanese, because if they "discouraged about learning Japanese because of pitch accent" instead of being "excited to learn this new "stress system" in the language they would love to learn" or smth like that, it means they don't truly want to learn Japanese, they're just having fun. There's nothing wrong with that approach, it's just George should've said "it's okay to not care about pitch accent if you're just having fun learning languages" or smth like that, but not "pitch accent is not important"
True, but passing that of as something that's not necessary at all isn't the best move, in my opinion. If it's important to someone who wants to sound as close to native as possible, then it's definitely important to learn. You literally won't be able to sound near native without it, but again as loads of people said if you understand that your Japanese is going to be ok but never really near perfect then not learning pitch accent is completely cool too! I just think putting a video out saying that it's dumb and people shouldn't learn it is in itself kinda dumb.
Okay, but the way he makes the point is totally wrong. He’s making it seem like it’s a cardinal sin to study pitch accent. “YoUr bRaiN WiLL LiTeRaLLy eXpLoDe!” I mean, come on, really? He’s just being so childish, and it makes him look really unintelligent. Like, just look at the title of his video “Pitch Accent Is Stupid.” If he really wanted to only convey that he didn’t want learners to feel overwhelmed, he could’ve picked like literally any other title rather than the obnoxious one that he chose.
Halfway through the video, As much as I love George I believe that every point you are making is extremely valid. I love that you pointed out that it is good enough and will be understood by most people because I think that is generally the vibe that George aims for with his learning curriculum whereas I think that your methods are more pointed towards perfectionism which isn't necessarily a bad thing but may not be everybody's goal
It's funny, because George is still speaking as an English speaker with stress-accenting words. When he said "えいご" it was like saying, "Therefore" where we stress the first syllable, like he was trying to put emphasis in the word "English" to make a point.
Yeah, I actually mentioned this in a comment as well but it’s one of the super common pitch accent mistakes English speakers made since it’s how you would stress words in English. Japanese people don’t emphasize words in the same way, or in ways that compromise the pitch accent. I remember Dogen giving an example where he stressed the が in 学校 as well when he wanted to emphasize it.
Yeah it's a super easy mistake to make. Same with changing tone to indicate a question in a tonal language. I often need to stop myself from instinctively rising my tone at the end of a name when asking a taxi driver to take me somewhere in Thailand.
@@bookwormbon482 Tae Kim's Grammar guide, immersion (simply listening to the language for many long hours), reading material in the target language, and having a practice buddy who knows the language. That's my tactics and I don't really try that hard to learn it.
@@Geo-st4jv How do you know if you don't speak Mandarin? Maybe you should make an effort to learn a language yourself before you start the trashtalk... "for a fact"...
@@Geo-st4jv Even if it's not, why do people care so much? I'm a native English speaker and there are so many English learners with terrible accents. Idc bc I know they're trying. As long as I can mostly understand them, that's good enough for me.
I really enjoy both yours and George's respectful discussion on this and I think you are both correct, the difference is in the subtlety of the learner. All learners should know the basics of pitch accent which allows them the opportunity to unlock how much focus they place on it during their studies. Knowing the basics can aide in imitation early when listening, however getting it wrong doesn't impede understanding so shouldn't be a concern as you can still be fluent without it.
This really relates to every language when you think about it. When I hear someone speaking Spanish I can tell almost instantly that they aren’t a native speaker by their pronunciation. As you said, the message is still getting across but hearing mistakes over and over can be distracting when you’re having a long conversation.
Really? I live in Hawaii where we have immigrants from all areas of Asian with strong accents here but it's never really distracting or hard to have conversations. Maybe I'm just used to it since I've been around it my whole life.
@@WayofRamen I don’t think it’s hard to have conversations but what’s distracting is hearing a word pronounced the wrong way, it doesn’t stop me from getting what they are saying but I’m just thinking about what they said that didn’t sound natural is all. I guess what I’m saying is if you were to speak to someone who is native in your language you rarely hear a mistake in pronunciation so when you do hear it in conversation it sticks out.
@@ジョシュ-k4u then I shouldn’t speak to anyone Japanese until I have mastered pitch accent so not to bother them with my speaking?? That makes no sense my friend. And as a fellow native Spanish speaker I am ashamed you look down on those who take the time and effort to learn our beautiful language when is not “native level” like you mentioned in your comment.
@@pavelmartinez4617 He never said anything close that. He just said that it is distracting when people make mistakes, not that he looks down on people who make mistakes. Also I am not sure where you got the idea that you have to master pronunciation before you talk with someone. Just like how you can make word choise mistakes and grammar mistakes when speaking you can also make pitch accent mistakes. When speaking a language it is inevitable that you will make a mistake.
@@pavelmartinez4617 I never said any of that. All I’m saying is that it’s noticeable to a native speaker when you hear a non native speak the language. Also I don’t look down on anyone learning any language, the more languages everyone speaks the more we can better understand each other instead of focusing on what makes us so different.
I mean when I learned English at some point I realized how important intonation and pronunciation in the language are, so I suppose in Japanese it's the same. Like the word "record" used as a noun has different stress than used as a verb.
@@sk8_bort Pitch accent is the manifestation of pronunciation and intonation in Japanese, as is stress accent in English. They are completely analogous.
If something seems difficult to learn, your mind will always try to tell you that you do not really need to improve in this specific area and that your life will be more or less the same with or without this additional skill. So it’s good to have some other sources beside your own thought patterns.
I don't understand people who denigrate others who try to be good at something. It happens in every pursuit not just language pursuits, but it's an attitude I often see in native English speakers who study other languages. Trying to learn good pronunciation isn't the same as trying to be perfect and it's not a waste of time.
Agreed. It's a way for people who don't want to do the difficult work to absolve themselves without guilt yet still be able to brag about speaking "great" Japanese or whatever other language. They try to pull others down to their level so that no one is truly great.
I think you both have very good points. I think George is guiding us through the summit of the mountain, getting us more familiar with the terrain. While you're basically a pro climber who comes down off the cliff to show us the stuff you've found at the top. Like, yeah, it's interesting and important, but it's just not something very early beginners should be concerning themselves with until they have more of a grasp on what they're actually learning.
Basic intermediate level learner here: I can't speak from expertise, but it seems to me that the most efficient way to learn any language is to make sure you don't pick up any mistakes early that you then have to 'unlearn'. Get things right first, and you'll learn quicker and more efficiently. This is why listening and reading 'natural' Japanese is so much better than using simplified teaching guides. Dogans pitch accent courses are way beyond my personal needs but just understanding what pitch accent is and when and how to use it has been a big help for me in learning how to 'hear' Japanese and in the importance in following natural rhythms when talking. Incidentally, on the point of Japanese people and pitch, non of my Japanese friends seem to know much about pitch, but then again, how many English speakers know what a stress accent is?
Pitch-accents vary according to dialects. When learners of Japanese speak Japanese, I often find myself trying to detect which dialect they are familiar with and based on. Some of them might have stayed somewhere in Japan and have friends that speak a dialect among them. I don't think it's necessary to follow a specific set of the 'correct' pitch accent, that is, a specific dialect including the standard Japanese, because all the speakers I've come across so far are quite intelligible as long as they don't try to speak very very quickly. On the other hand, you are much easier to listen to, when following a specific set of pitch-accent. So I think it's up to learners.
fluency first, then pitch accent. learning japanese is hard enough as it is, it's considered one of the hardest on the rosetta stone ranking up there with arabic. It's hard enough learning non-latin characters, different syntax, etc to tell people to learn pitch accent on top.
When I was in college I learnt Japanese for two years, pitch accent was never mentioned. So I'm really not sure how important the pitch accent is. Then again, I still consider myself a beginner. Thinking about this logically, imagine the number of foreigners who come to the United States and speak English with an accent. When the person speaks, do we focus on their accent or do we focus on the conversation we're having? I've met so many people with an extremely high level of English and they still had an accent, yet our conversation were very fun and intriguing. To my understanding, language is a tool you use to communicate with people. Therefore it's probably not necessary for someone to stress themselves out over sharpening it like a knife. Lastly, I hope people are not discouraged to start learning Japanese from all this talk on pitch accent. The language is already quite challenging (for native speakers of English) as it is. What's the point of adding another layer to that?
i think the point is just to acknowledge it at least. your brain will do the rest if you let it. once you perceive it there wont be any extra effort involved.
My university textbook “Japanese the Spoken Language” introduced pitch accent from the very first chapter, and the entire book (words and sentences) was diagrammed.
Same, it was introduced but not stressed or tested. I'm fuent, but having not really studied pitch, my pitch is off, but as mentioned it rarely causes comunication issues.
As a beginner in Japanese I am very grateful for these videos from George and Matt, they really care about creating relevant content for people studying Japanese. They both care about teaching in their own way and are willing to create constructive content, not just bland content to attack the other, but instead discuss important points regarding the art of studying japanese. Thank you guys for all you do :)!
I'm Japanese and I think it's important to set a clear goal. If you just want to communicate with Japanese people, you unironically don't have to go out of your way to be a linguistics nerd. But if you want to sound natural and completely fit in, you have to because if you're not a child anymore you can't learn everything just by immersion and you're gonna need additional information about concepts such as pitch accent. To be completely honest, listening to someone like George is like I'm listening to some dialect of Japanese I've never come across. I can totally understand what he's saying, but it always feels kind of off. But Japanese me can't point that out. 😓
I think you both make good points about pitch accent. It seems that your priorities in terms of Japanese speaking are different so your opinions will always clash. George is concerned with being able to communicate, to hold a conversation. While your priority is to reach a native level of speaking. For people learning the language, I do think that George is a good place to start, because If you focus on accent right from the beginning I do think you will become discouraged along with the thousands of kanji that your trying to remember.
"George is concerned with being able to communicate, to hold a conversation." Yeah and if you pronounce every word wrong, communicating with someone is actually very difficult.
As Matt points out, he and George are Gaijin. Japanese people will not be concerned with their pitch accent. Of course if you say something wrong you’re gonna get a word repeated for clarification. The problem when being a Gaijin speaking with a good accent is Japanese people will think you can speak Japanese when you can’t. It’s almost better in the beginning to sound like a foreigner..
I agree with you that pitch accent is important. The classic example is the difference between hashi as in chopsticks (箸) and hashi as in bridge (橋). It would be difficult to think of a time where you would be misunderstood because of this due to context, but it's still a good idea to speak correctly as much as you can. I have noticed in practice though that some Japanese people pronounce the same word with a different pitch accent. As a result, I've started to pronounce some words differently than the average person as well. An example is sushi. Anyone else had this experience?
The 箸-橋 rule is completely opposite in the west. Even within a prefecture, there are lots of different accents. Personally, I automatically switch pitch accents depending on the person I’m talking to.
Minimal pairs with different accents are cute, but hardly the rule. Many words have no “accent” or pitch drop at all. The most important rule is, speak Japanese by oscillating between two pitches about a musical third or fourth apart. Westerners don’t know how to do that. The second part of the rule is, that in the steady stream of syllables, the beginning of words are marked by a rise or fall in pitch. You must listen for that to understand what words you’re hearing! The Dead Man’s Rule applies. Only the dead can stop doing anything, such as “stop putting stress into Japanese words.” But we the living can learn new behaviors to replace bad habits. Such as, learning how to chant, alternating low and high pitch, every time we speak Japanese. Only then can we really hear and understand spoken Japanese at speed. Or pick up where the “accent” or pitch drops are in some words.
As an English native speaker that can immediately pick up on a foreigner's (English) accent, I have never once thought that it was to their detriment, and neither will a Japanese person think this about you. All it does is add to your charm. Word choice is far more important, as word choice can change the meaning of something entirely. For example, a beginner studying the language might think お世辞 means 'compliment' (positive nuance), when actually it means 'lip-service' (negative nuance). Don't get me wrong, Matt delivers a great message and I think that pitch accent is also very important, but it will not prevent you from being understood (unless you are woefully bad). One thing I do think though, is that the fastest way to fix pitch accent is though communication with Japanese speakers, on a daily basis. If you think 'I cannot communicate with Japanese speakers every day', then that leads me to my next point. Why are you trying to perfect a speech pattern that you do not live inside of? Embrace who you are, and fix things one by one as they cause communication issues, or as Japanese becomes a regular part of your life. Nobody will judge you apart from you, especially not Japanese people that have been studying English their whole lives yet cannot speak English at all.
As someone who speaks another Asian pitch accent language, Cebuano, I can attest that we do hear all the pitch errors when a foreigner speaks. We definitely notice, but we're nice about it, since it's uncommon for people to learn Cebuano, and we can understand what the person is saying. If they really want to improve their pronunciation, they can ask for help. For example, the difference between afternoon and Japan in Cebuano is a high pitch on one syllable. First syllable pitch is afternoon (hápon), second syllable pitch is Japan (hapón). Cebuano also has many Non pitch words, which makes it pretty hard for speakers of any language where there's almost always a pitch somewhere, often accompanying the stressed syllable. Coming from another pitch language, I think the first point is applicable, where I can get by on what I hear cause it's pretty distinct to me. For most other speakers, I would definitely recommend practicing to hear pitch and learning to separate it from stress, which is also where most of the mistakes George makes are. He stressed the Ei in えいご and pitched it that way, and the same with にほんご, and many other words. In English the pitch comes with the stress, so it's not something that's ever talked about, which makes it seem like English is not a pitch language, but it does have pitch. It's like the difference between the noun and verb form of progress: /'proh-gress/ vs /pruh-'gress/ The verb form starts with a low pitch and rises on the stressed syllable. Learning to hear and separate pitch from stress will help in both hearing and speaking Japanese better.
I think they both make good points in their own way, but I also feel like Matt isn't fully comprehending George's basic argument. Go watch George's video, and then watch this one again and you'll see what I mean. For another perspective, Steve Kaufmann also has a video about this topic called "Pitch Accent: Is It Important?" in which he basically agrees with George.
For me, pitch accent was worth it to learn besides just improving pronunciation. 1. It helped me greatly with my listening skills. When you learn pitch accent, you naturally pay closer attention to what the other person is saying. 2. It's not an endless pursuit like vocabulary or grammar. While there might always be a word/grammar point you don't know about, after you learn how to hear pitch and the rules of pitch accent (particles, verbs, adjectives, compounds, etc) you can just pick up accent from audio alone. I'm still going to learn all the rules because I'm a nerd, lol 3. My teachers start pitch from lesson 1 in the textbook so that you don't have to correct your mistakes later. Bad habits die hard after all. 4. It just feels good to speak proper Japanese with the right intonation. I love learning Japanese even more now.
My 2 cents: when learning another language, be sure to understand what level you're trying to achieve. I'm Italian, English is my second language and I took French in high school. While I studied a lot more about English and the immense variety of pronunciation differences, I wasn't very good with French (I can read it, write it but speaking is much harder). I still think I achieved what I was looking for (a good level of English to visit or watch English related countries/content and a good enough level of French to be able to read French literature or news). I wouldn't go that far like George and say "this is useless"; when I hear a foreigner speaking Italian, I can clearly identify whether they're at a native level or not. I wouldn't know why it wouldn't be the same for another person.
12:11 That really hit me. 3 years ago my channel used to be called KouttVsJapan because of this community. That's UNTIL I noticed all the ego and all the "red pill; blue pill" thing there was going around on the discord server (when it used to cost like 1-3usd to get into). I immediately got out and changed my name and went on my own with the learning (to be honest was a bit lonely). I'm glad you guys changed that and seems to be a little bit more modest and friendly now.
I've been studying Japanese for about 6 years and I'm at the level where I've read about a dozen novels. While I was in Japan, I probably spent about a dozen hours studying pitch accent. And while I think I might've been able to hear pitch accent with another dozen hours of studying, I stopped. It was just too frustrating when I thought about the time I could have been studying new words and improving my general ability. While it'd be nice to know pitch accent, I can't justify it to myself when I'm still not satisfied with my general ability. I care more about speaking fluently than pronouncing perfectly. I'd like to believe I'll pick up pitch accent again, but perhaps after I'm fluent in reading and listening. It's not ideal, but at least I'm not practicing speaking much nowadays anyway.
It’s time to drop reading for a bit, subscribe to audiobook.jp, and start “shadowing” aloud at 0.5-0.7 speed. You’re ready. You’re not missing 1,000 kanji or 10,000 words. What you’re missing is 10,000 hours of listening and speaking. Pick narrators whose voices match yours, and subjects you already know but have no Japanese vocabulary in. You’ll experience the thrill of figuring out vocabulary on the fly. You’ll realize that even kanji are meant remind speakers of words they know by ear, not to teach words they haven’t heard. And you’ll find yourself speaking along with shockingly steady rhythm and loudness, while oscillating between two pitches about 3-4 steps apart. You’ll realize that Japanese is always sung, and you’ll never speak it again with American stress or pitch patterns..
The thing is, I've seen plenty of foreigners who can speak fluently but their pitch accent is all over the place and it sounds really awkward. Speaking quickly =/= speaking accurately. There are native Japanese who speak hesitantly and choose their words very carefully before speaking, but there are no Japanese who speak with the wrong pitch accent (for their dialect). If you want to stand out as having exceptional Japanese that's the thing to focus on.
I don’t speak Japanese, I’m a chinese major, however i can comprehend that Japanese pitch accent is not exactly the same to chinese tones, however i can comprehend they are both very important. I makes language easier on the ears. Some of the suggestions others mentioned like shadowing language really helped me
Recently, I've been considering the importance of pitch accent to fluency, and I guess I have complicated ideas about it. I have done very little "book learning" of Japanese in favor of learning primarily from participating in real-life conversations (whether spoken or over text). Being a pretty good mimic and having a habit of repeating what I hear, I have long been at a point where I get specific compliments on my intonation and fluency, but I am also aware that I have a limited ear for pitch. When you reach this level of fluency though, it can and does come up in conversation because as you mentioned, native Japanese speakers frequently catch themselves and each other making mistakes in pitch or intonation. Often it's a side effect of regional dialects having different patterns, but the fact is that it's noticeable enough that you can often tell someone's "not from around here" just from those "mistakes." So while I recognize that it is definitely an important element to real fluency and getting closer to native-level Japanese, the fact that even native speakers often disagree on pitch patterns gives me a good excuse to continue avoiding that kind of sit-down studying that I really don't enjoy.
Excellent video! I’d like to also point out something you missed that further strengthens your argument. The mistakes he makes aren’t on even remotely rare words. The mistakes are on some of the most common words in the entire Japanese language. He will have heard them literally tens of thousands of times and yet he still gets them wrong, so clearly imitation without foundational pitch accent knowledge is never going to work. It would be a different story if he only messed up on rare words….
@@valentinoleynik1255 The dialects used in the most northern regions of Japan (like Aomori) are much closer to Tokyo Japanese than George's Japanese. More importantly, people from such regions who spend any significant time in Tokyo (or a lot of time conversing in and listening to Tokyo Japanese) are able to imitate Tokyo Japanese far, FAR better than George does.
Pitch accent being important has to be the most exaggerated thing youtubers made up to sell you their shit lesson plans. It's probably last on the list of things to focus on. You're not gonna sound native before knowing lots of words and having lots of experience. Pitch accent is only a small part of that. Imagine if English teachers started making whole channels dedicated to stress in English. Such a small insignificant thing to focus on. It's strange. It's really just mystifying something that's really rather simple to make money, misdirecting newcomers in the process. And the funny thing is Matt's pitch accent isn't even perfect.
Being "good enough" is good enough for most people. Not everyone has to be a perfectionist in a chosen language. People usually just want to be able to communicate. Once you're able to communicate first, then of course you'll be able to correct and tweak your speaking with the help of native speakers AS YOU SPEAK TO THEM. Overly focusing on pitch when just starting out can turn people off and make them give up learning the language in the first place. Then nothing would matter.It's already hard enough to stay motivated. Let people learn in a nice and easy way so they can at least talk to natives and get further help. Nobody likes a stickler.
Well said. I can't say that I'm good at all at pitch accent, or Japanese in general. However, I understand that it makes one sound fluent. And that's basically it. Most adults who learn a new language...maybe moving to another country in the process...NEVER speak with a natural local accent. George Trombley is like that, and that's fine. Just like a French or Japanese or Mexican person who moved to America will almost undoubtedly not sound American, neither will most foreigners who live in Japan. So in one way, it's not all that important if you can listen to an immigrant with no problems. But if you want to sound natural, then it's a must. It just comes down to how much you actually want to sound natural. At any rate, listening out for local pronunciations is worthwhile, even if you can never mimic it. Heck, I can't even speak like an Australian or British person except in (largely stereotypical) pre-memorized phrases.
I am native Japanese and oh my goodness, YOU NAILED IT!!! If we listen to you and George reading exactly the same sentences, trust me, 100% of Japanese native speaker would judge you are way too fluent than George. You are the best!
Pitch accent is important I’m married to a Japanese and my wife always comment’s when my accent is wrong eg high and low tones, and my Japanese is very basic
Very informative. I'm glad I watched this now at the beginning of my Japanese journey. This will save me time by getting it right from the beginning before trying to fix bad habits later.
Even if one is not looking for perfection/mastery learning at least the basic pitch accent will always be worth it. You don’t even have to learn everything about pitch accents which may be hard but at least some basic ideas to be able to distinguish between similar sounds. I think the point that Matt is trying to make is that, you don’t lose a lot by learning a little bit of pitch accent but you have so much to gain, so why not.
You raise some fair points. It is good to be exposed to a lot of details in the language and to at least learn the basics. I have had people misunderstood what I've said because I pitched the word incorrectly. I still find myself agreeing more with George on this front. He might not have the most perfect pronunciation, but I still like the sound and flow of his language better than others who have mastered pitch accent. It feels that some are trying too hard and it shows. To be fair, I have only studied the basics of pitch accents so perhaps my opinions is not well-informed. I am open to change down the road. That said, I have never devoted much time to studying stress (or the IPA) in English. Do I sound like a native speaker? No, nor do I want to. The world would be less fun if everyone sounded like movie Americans. I suppose that Japanese, being the language of a homogeneous nation, is decidedly less flexible. The nature of the language also demands more accuracy. In the end, I agree that worshiping personalities and idolizing them is stupid. No one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes. Thanks for taking the time to making a video. I find the discussion intriguing.
My mother tongue is a pitch accent language and some of the leaders in church are Americans. I internally scream/correct them when they preach with the wrong pitch-accent. There's something alienating about it, even though I can understand what he's going for haha. Bad pitch accent slows the flow of the conversation (having to consider what they might be saying/making them repeat themselves), changes the meaning of words and makes you sound a bit "challenged" tbh. But I agree with George's philosophy of not over-complicating language learning. Throwing oneself into the challenge with bravery is much better than being anxious because of pitch-accent.
I think you a d George are both somewhat right. I think you're right that you shouldn't completely ignore pitch accent but I think you shouldn't spend a long time actively studying it. My tutor basically tells me that I shouldn't concentrate on pitch accent beyond immitating. When reading, she will correct my accent only when it breaks my flow ( yes correct accent usually makes pronounciation somewhat easier) or when she thinks it sounds cringe to her.
the easiest example when conveying the importance of pitch accent is to look at english words with a verb meaning and a noun meaning. Lets take "record". For words like this, you stress the first part if you want to use the noun meaning and the second part if you want to use the verb meaning. Sure, you can understand it, it just takes more effort to understand and it stands out
I'm Japanese and I hope Matt will see this comment. I like watching your videos on language acquisition and they are extremely helpful but when It comes to pitch accent I can't disagree more. Pitch accent in Japanese isn't like the English stress or Chinese tone at all. The reason is that Japanese pitch accent greatly varies across regions in Japan, so the way George says えいご can be common in some places out of Tokyo, despite the word length, vowel and consonant which are basically the same in every part of Japan . English stress is like the opposite; where you put stress in a word "about" for instance is basically the same in English speaking countries despite the vowels that can be different across regions and countries. So the Japanese pitch accent is rather more like English vowel and it can be more flexible and variable. If you say that the way George says えいご is wrong because it's supposed to be pronounced "え↑いご(いご with higher tone", it's just like you're saying "People in Canada and UK pronounce a word "about" wrongly in its vowels" but it's obviously nonsensical. I'm sad that majority of Japanese people feel ashamed about their own non-Tokyo accents and this Tokyo-centralized view is getting dominant in Japan. I hope Japanese learners won't be so obsessed with the Tokyo pitch accent unless you aim to acquire perfect Tokyo accent. Japan is not only Tokyo or Kanto area.
sounds true, but even then people should stick to a certain pitch-system, while japanese learner don't go with any system but speak at random pitches. That should be more bothersome than speaking in a non-tokyo pitch system to a japanese listene?
Meh, I’m not super knowledgeable but I think this more or less proves the point of the video. If I was talking to someone who, for example, spoke with an cleanly American accent 75% of the time but mixed in Canadian/UK/Australian/Whatever pronounciations, it would be WEIRD, possibly CONFUSING, and for intents and purposes WRONG. Now, if I was speaking to someone who was from the Scotland and had a Scottish accent, then of course they’re not wrong. I guess what I’m saying is, consistency matters. If your going all willy nilly with the rules then it’s not really proper for ANY dialect, hm?
exactly! I am Chinese, and when I see them rubbing against each other becoz of this, it's a joke lol people talk differently~ and that's it. just like when you talk in English, you don't have to really "study" pitches~ you just know it... and in a sentence, the pitches would vary becoz of many reasons....
dialect has nothing to do with pitch accent...and even if pitch accents DID vary that differently by region, imagine someone uneducated about pitch accent says a sentence using different four jumbled up pitch accents. it's not like their dialect can be from four different regions at the same time..bffr
I have definitely been pointed out pitch accent mistakes even in a non-learning environment. For example, I meant to say "plate" (sara), but they thought I was talking about someone named Sarah, so they had to pause me and ask for clarification.
Pitch important is someway and definitely will improve your standard Japanese accent. Japanese accent could differ or slightly differ from area to area since it is a country of multi dialect. Who are the native English Speaker? Is it the American, British, Australians, etc.. Does Americans likes only to hear American accent? Other than that it will be sound weird or not preferable? You prefer not to go other countries which speaks English but not American accent? Which American accent is the perfect accent? I guess American accent would slightly varies depending on the location as well.
On a channel I like, Campanas de Japanese, the teacher addresses the question “do I need to learn the pitch accent for every single word I learn?” by answering “Yes you do. If you learn a new word in English or any other language, you’d check the pronunciation, wouldn’t you?”
In my experience pitch accent gets really important when you use a lot of uncommon vocabulary. If you mess up the pitch accent in words like 世界、日本語、歴史or食べ物 everybody would still understand you, just because those words are used so regularly. But when words like 演繹、廃仏毀釈or公卿 your pitch accent has to be perfect in order for Japanese speakers to understand you. It's just like in English. Mispronouncing the word 'tomorrow' might sound strange, but nobody has a problem understanding it. But if out of context somebody says 'anachronistic' and fucks up the pronunciation bad, a lot of people probably would not catch it.
Thank you for your insights! But i feel like I have to disagree with you on one specific point at 9:20 - 927: "If you cant perceive all the subtle differences in sound, then you're not gonna be able to imitate properly." - While certainly true when trying to actively imitate someone, it is not true when subconsciously imitating in my opinion, and I speak from experience there. When I was still very early in my japanese study, maybe half a year in, we had a japanese guy visiting our language class (~5 students). We all did basic introductions first, then he introduced himself. After that I asked him something and without actively thinking about it, I imitated his pronunciation and inflection very well, basically shadowing him after the fact. I was very surprised about that myself in that moment. Since then, while certainly still not perfect, I've been complimented many times on my pronunciation by japanese natives and I have never studied pitch accents. While I cannot disagree on the topic being important, it is not essential. it is possible to learn subconsciously, basically like babies do. Even for tone-deaf people like me ;)
I had came across pitch accents when I acquired a book by Gene Nishi. It felt a little much for me while trying to learn a few sentence structures. Now that I’m studying it even more to make up for lost time, I’m doing my best to incorporate some pitch accents on words I already know. I’m grateful for this content and to do my best to notice it more. It also gives me a new goal to work towards as well. Keep up the great work.
Have you ever considered that the problem with pitch accent maybe isn’t that you didn’t study it enough, but that the all conscious work (SRS) and early reading (it isn’t explicitly notated in Japanese orthography, correct?) you did do to learn the language interfered with your acquisition process/played a part in fossilizing your pronunciation before the pitch accent bit could be naturally acquired?
After all, if we take Krashen and others seriously, all these kinds of aspects of fluency are never explicitly studied by natives before they are already fluent.
Hey, man. I like you, but i think you're on the wrong on this one. I think your argument comes from a language learning fetish of sounding like an arbitrary "standard native". In other words, i do think pitch accent it's not that important and foreigners should even embrace their accent which shows their roots and contribute in a different way to japanese culture.
@@coolbrotherf127 I don't think so. Hear me out: if you hear someone speaking your mother language with correct grammar, being able to communicate anything with you, what do you think at that moment? "Oh! This person learned my mother language as his third language and he has an accent... That's kind of disrespectful!" Or do you think: "Oh! This person learned my mother language as his third language and he has an accent... How nice he took time to learn it!" The point of LANGUAGE and learning one is communicating. My point is: if you have an accent, that communicates you are a foreigner which... you are. And there's nothing inherently "wrong" about it. For me, there's NO "CORRECT" ACCENT if you are able to communicate in a language and took time to understand the culture around it too... Anyway, I hope that this makes my stance more clear. If you disagree, let's agree to disagree, my friend!
@@gustavoteles5994 The difference though is that pitch in Japanese, similar to tones in Mandarin or Cantonese, directly changes not just the sound of the words, but also the meaning. By saying words with the wrong pitch, you're just saying the wrong word, not the same word with just a different sound. A language like English can be easily understood with a different accent as few words can be confused for each other, but Japanese requires the pitch to be consistent to be understood easily due to the large number of homophones. No one would say some was fluent in speaking English if they just said random words in their sentences instead of the correct words, and I feel it's the same in Japanese. Part of fluency is learning the pitch of words so those listening to you don't have to guess what you're saying.
@@coolbrotherf127 Maybe the solution for that is context like in the example of hashi to chopsticks and bridge. Context will save anyone from that confusion... I think. But, I think that this point you made is strong. Pitch accent grew a little more in importance to me, but idk. I think the point i made is importante too. Anyway, I need to study more japanese too hehe
At the end of they day ill never be a japanese person and perfect pronunciation is not something i expect of 2nd language learners in english either. im kind of on team george on this one. As long as your perfectly comprehensible to native speakers i would deem that as good enough.
Yeah I agree. I'm a native English speaker and I know that the very large majority of L2 English speakers will never sound like me. And guess what? They don't need to. If they can communicate in English and be mostly understood, that's great! They don't need to be perfect, and they'll never sound 100% native anyway. Just like I'll never sound 100% native in the other languages I speak.
There are a lot of benefits to improving a bad accent, and it doesn't take a lot to learn just the basics of pitch accent. Even knowing that pitch accent is a thing can make a difference.
I believe that the boost you get from the ignorance of not caring too much about pitch accent is valuable . Especially when you are the type that strives first and foremost for comprehension . I feel like pitch accent is something you find along the journey and perfect separately once you feel like not having too many loose ends in your comprehension. As someone who doesn't have much time, i won't bother butchering pitch accent for the better good of comprehension and its faster acquisition. That does not mean i won't come back to correct it at some point.
Holy shit Matt, did you just shift the pitch on the BGM right as you're saying "If you can't perceive the subtle differences in sound, you aren't gonna be able to imitate it". That was a based move. Edit: It happens between 9:10 and 9:40 if you're interested Edit2: not so sure about this anymore
I like your point that the most important thing is to learn to hear it. I'm musically-trained so that's not too hard for me. I also enjoy putting words in OJAD and pressing the button that plays the accent for all the conjugations.
I do agree with most things, but the "American accent" or any other language accent when speaking Japanese doesn't have much to do with pitch accent imho. You can speak Japanese without influence of accent from any other language, but you can still have your pitch accents wrong. It will, however, be much more easier to understand than people talking like: "Konichiwah. Areegatoh. Watahshee wa Amerikajeen death."
For sure. This is because English accents don't vary by pitch very much - most accent differences in English related to open vowel sounds, which really screw up Japanese (or many other languages).
I've only been studying Japanese for a few months, and it's rough how strongly teachers disagree on every single aspect of it. One book (or channel) will teach you that a certain word is very rude, while another will tell you it's the only polite one. Same with pitch accent - some tell you it's extremely important, others say it's not that big of a deal. I didn't have this kind of experience when learning any other language. More than anything else it seems to be a matter of opinion (and to some extent probably a dick measuring contest, just as George and Matt said). I have decided not to worry about it for now and just focus on getting my listening comprehension to a point where I can understand Japanese news and TV in general - then I can attempt to mimic native speakers. Sure, I'll have built up bad habits by then, which will be hard to get rid off, but I'd rather do that than stop studying and reconsider my methods every couple of days because some guy on RUclips said I'm doing it wrong.
Hello, from Portland, Oregon! Thank you so much for advocating pitch accent. In all 6 years of Japanese study in school and on my own, never once did I encounter the idea of pitch accent, until I discovered Dogen last month. I went from 100% confident in my Japanese accent to 0%, but it needed to happen for me to improve! Thanks again 🙏
A japanese-spanish translator here. If a japanese learner came across this video wanting to know the importance of pitch accent, i would give them this piece of advice: If you are not able to perceive something, you won’t become able to perceive it just by studying it. It's like thinking that you could learn to see unknown colors just by studying really hard about infrared and ultraviolet light. It makes no sense at all. The problem with Matt’s way of aboarding the issue is that he starts by saying "studying pitch accent helps to improve your listening" (which sounds reasonable), but ends up saying "you NEED pitch accent in order to BE ABLE TO HEAR". Well sorry, but i’ve been able to hear since i was a baby. I didn't learn it from Matt, and probably neither did you. Did Matt objectively prove that japanese people have some 'special japanese hearing' and that foreigners need special training to acquire it? No, he didn’t, and that would be a crazy arbitrary claim. He shows us a video of japanese people arguing about pitch accent and presents that as proof of… what exactly? All it proves is that not all japanese are equally mindful about their own pitch accent in casual conversation. But what is even more crazy about this whole pitch accent controversy is that the alleged reason we are given to delve into the subject isn't a reason at all. We should be wary of pitch accent, they say, because "native speakers prefer people who speak in a natural and normal way". What kind of twisted motivation is that? It implies that you, as a language learner, should take into account the preferences of native speakers of a language you don’t fully master yet. How are you supposed to know what those preferences are? You can’t ask the natives themselves because you are not able to fully communicate with them yet… unless they speak your language too. So the only way of dealing with pitch accent is having a master that speaks your language, just like Matt or Dogen. Forget about inmersion, comprehensive input, or any kind of self-taught acquisition. What you need is a third party who shoves the language down into your brain. That is the contradiction that this pitch accent "controversy” leads to. If you believe that kind of approach is useful to learn anything, you may as well learn from duolingo (and even THAT would be better).
I don’t know how you can say you can’t learn to hear it, that’s just baffling. When it’s not a part of your native language, it’s super likely you won’t pick up on it without having it pointed out to you. Once it’s pointed out with just a few specific examples, it becomes obvious what pitch accent is. From there, it’s just a matter of practice.
@@glenn7484 I never said "learn to hear", i said "be able to hear". Also, there is a difference between listening and hearing. If you say practice improves listening, that is prefectly fine, i agree with that. Yes, you can learn to listen to a language. But no one teaches you to HEAR. Your ears do the hearing for you. If they are healthy you hear, if not, you are deaf. I don't agree with those who claim that i can't HEAR pitch accent. Telling people that they can't hear something is literally acusing them of being deaf. But if they were deaf, they would have trouble hearing ANY language (even their native) not just japanese.
@@PoLanka65 ok well I appreciate precise usage of language, so I’m happy to take your point. Though I did think it was clear that ‘hearing’ in this usage implied consciously noticing.
@@glenn7484 I got your point, and that is why i essentialy agreed with you. But the distinction between those two things was precisely what i was pointing out on my original comment: That the problem with the pitch accent polemicist is that they start by saying something true (that studying it does help to your listening), but then they go nuts and make some absurd claims about a kind of "deafness" of the non-native speakers. They specially insist on the latter when confronted with the fact that pitch accent is not the most fundamental aspect of japanese, and that learners are correct when they leave it for last among their priorities.
Pitch accent is only important if youre trying to sound native. At someone who has no plans on moving to Japan, I feel like people like me just dont need to spend 100s of hours learning how to speak with an awkward focus on sounding native.
No, pitch accent doesn't matter only if you want to sound native. It matters if you want to be understood by native speakers. It's part of the pronunciation of the spoken language so native speakers will have a hard time understanding you if you don't speak clearly. It doesn't have to take a ton of extra time either if you learn it from the start instead of trying to learn it all at the end.
1:56 Hey, don't be so mean to him😭 Yea, ofcourse learning pitch accent makes you sound more natural, but it actually differ in each region and even in every single one of Japanese people. And yes, we sometimes make fun of each other about the accent we use😂 I think it just better to speak no ups and downs with no accent at all for beginners. o, btw I am a Japanese guy.😀
yeah, people speak with different accents and differently in different regions, but it’s always consistent. George’s Japanese has no logic to it, if you do not study the basics of standard Japanese pitch accent you will always have weird inconsistent pitch accent mistakes.
I think speaking flat is horrible advice, it's even worse than a foreign accent because you sound like a robot. I think if you heard someone actually speak how you suggest they do you would quickly change your mind. What you meant to say is probably that foreigners should speak in a way that doesn't hurt your ears - in other words, not with improper pitch.
@@ルイ-f4g actually there is a region in Japan where they speak with no accent, a flat pitch accent. So I don't think you'll sound like a robot. But if you a foreign, and you sound like a person coming from this region, it's maybe a little bit strange.
@@fedexman What region, because I find that very hard to believe. I think they just think they speak flat, the way a lot of Japanese people seem to believe they speak flat. I honestly doubt there's a single language that's spoken flat to begin with.
I don't think it's valid to say George made 8 mistakes in 30 seconds because you're not considering how many sillables he spoke in that time frame. Supposing he spoke about 150 sillables and only 8 had wrong pitch, he's far from "good enough", but almost perfect.
Yup. I think it's cherry picking to only show how many errors there are. Matt doesn't say how many correct PA George made. I think he doesn't because he realises that his argument against George carried no to little weight if George's correct PA vastly outnumber his PA errors.
I think these are fair points, and I as a native Swedish speaker feel much more comfortable listening to another native Swedish speaker. I have to put a little bit more effort in to listening to a non native speaker. With that being said, I have worked with foreign co-workers who spoke with an accent and I got used to it after a while and it doesn't feel taxing after some time has passed
Pitch accent study is essential for accent reduction. But a lot of people who OBSESS over it seem to develop a non-expressive robotic "flat" Japanese with proper pitch accent where the base pitch doesn't change. Kinda same thing that Chinese learners go through in the beginning stages but later get rid of. Natives don't talk like that all the time.
i think whether or not you want to ignore pitch accent is entirely up to what level of fluency you want to reach. if you only wish to be able to communicate to get your ideas across fluidly then yeah pitch accent won't matter to you so much but if you're trying to really sound like a native then it's definitely important. it's all down to your own goals in learning japanese
Imagine speaking English without putting stress on words, and reading every word in a sentence with the same speed and intonation. Even if every word was the correct word, it would be impossible to understand for a listener. Pitch accent is not some advanced skill for “masters and experts”; it’s simple correct pronunciation.
@@TokyoXtreme agree completely. Too many people just use "I just want to communicate, I don't care about getting it right" as an excuse for being lazy.
If he averages that 8 mistakes every 30 seconds, for the whole two hour duration of that video....its almost 2,000 mistakes. Ughhhhh, guess I gotta pay Dogen for that lesson plan haha : )
Dogen's pitch accent lessons are well worth it if you want to learn. Even just memorising the rules from the first 30 videos (which cover all types of verbs, adjectives, nouns and even sentence pitch accent) will really improve your accent. Stuff like how most 4 mora, 2 kanji nouns and na-adjectives don't have a down step, or how 4+ mora i-adjectives like おもしろい or はずかしい will have the down step on the second to last mora. These are all super easy rules to learn that will just improve your spoken Japanese very easily as long as your willing to learn them
@@XgamersXdimensions I paid the 5000 yen for the online version of the dictionary, and I have probably used it for 30-45 minutes a day for six months. It has rewired my brain, and was a great investment. I use the audio for my Anki flashcards too.
I agree that people tend not to give negative feedback on (pitch) accent mistakes. My native language is German and I know quite a lot of people who learn German and are very good at it (C level) and I still don't correct if they make similar mistakes. When you are during a conversation with a person and the person is making next to none mistakes in grammar, vocabulary but the only thing that is off is their accent, I feel it's quite rude to point it out all the time unless they specifically ask (as I have no trouble understanding them). I mean, as a native, you hear it immediately when someone's pronunciation is slightly off because your ears are trained to hear the "correct" version all the time. It's similar to how you can tell differences between dialects used by native speakers. I am originally from the south and I just need to hear two sentences from a person from the north to immediately hear that they are not from the same area as I am whereas a learner might not be able to pinpoint that difference.
Sign up to my free newsletter, I might be sending out some pitch accent tips and tricks in the future! mattvsjapan.com
If you're interested in learning pitch accent, I recommend Dogen's pronunciation course: patreon.com/dogen
No, you are wrong. Nihongo isu furatto.
Seriously though, when I heard pitch accent is a thing, I wanted to cry.
How could Japanese education and Japanese-English DICTIONARIES FFS be so oblivious (or so neglectfully non-comprehensive) for so long?
English dictionaries have marked the accents of words for hundreds of years now. It has been STANDARD
@@과자-z8o Standard Korean doesn't have pitch accent. It uses pitch for a lot of things, but it's not an accent system. The example you provided actually is proof that it's a pitch accent system because the emphasis is overriding how you normally say it. Regional dialects of Korean do have pitch accent. (Most places in 경상도 for example.) Just to be sure, Standard / Seoul Korean makes use of pitch in its phonology to a significant extent. The way it uses pitch is not called pitch accent.
(Probably not gonna see this but) correct me if I'm wrong, but how can you say that George made pitch accent mistakes, when George said in his video that pitch accent is very different in different parts of Japan?
@@saebre. I like spelling as an analogy. Different English speaking regions have different spelling rules, but if you (1) spell something in a way no large group of natives do, then it's a "mistake," (2) mix all the major spelling patterns (sometimes American, sometimes British, sometimes Canadian, sometimes Indian) in one piece of writing, that would be seen as inaccurate and inconsistent, and (3) spell 90% of things American, but randomly mix in other spellings here and there, most copy editors will mark that as a inaccuracy. (1) is clearly a mistake. (2) and (3) depend on context and the person's background. From what I can tell, he's mostly doing (1) and, in the case (2) and (3), even when a Japanese person would say what he said, it's neither Aomori or Tokyo dialect, which means it's a mistake that coincidentally is valid in another region.
You want to know if your pitch accent is bad? Spend some time with kids. I work in a Japanese junior high school and let me tell you.. those kids will absolutely let you know if you're pronouncing something weird. They of course don't know about concepts like pitch accent, but they have no problem making fun of you for the way you pronounce something.
That sounds like great advice! xD
Since when are you allowed around children?
Kids are goated, screw adults and their fake niceness
That's actually really amazing! Learning pitch accent would be so much easier if people were always pointing out mistakes
@@IsraelCervantes-le4gf It's not necessarily fake niceness, they might genuinely not want to hurt your feelings. That's called tact, which is different from being fake. Being fake would be if they were being polite even though they didn't care about your feelings at all.
We’re happy when western ppl speak good Japanese, very true. We will never correct any kind of mistakes unless we know its appreciated. The more you’re correct with pitch accents the more impressed we are. FACT.
これこれ。I back this up!
@asami would you be able to translate this for me please!!!
全世界に向けて限りない愛を放ちます
Thank you very much if you can!!!
@@mmlane2263: I'll unleash endless love to the world.
@@w1z4rd9 Thank you!!!
@@mmlane2263 I recommend the app Hinative. You can ask natives to help you translate or teach you anything.
7:31 “The real value in studying pitch accent is not to try to use the rules in real time. It’s that it allows you to unlock your perception.” Hit the nail on the head with that one. I appreciate how concisely you put it into words. As a native Cantonese speaker, I can’t stress how true this is. Great video. I love the way you speak in general and hope that it will help me improve my speaking skills too.
I'm a native Japanese. And what you said is 100% true, in every respect! Your insight is actually amazing....
Ditto.
lol todo means everything/all in spanish
Finally a confirmation from a native speaker! :)
The difference can be summed up this way. George is an obvious gaijin who speaks Japanese really well. With Matt, it's like, "Wait. Are you part Japanese? You grew up in Japan, right? You scared me a little there." 😂
That said, there are many foreigners who live in Japan that speak Japanese at a (near) native level, pronunciation included. Many Chinese, Koreans, and Russians stand out, in my opinion. People whose native language is English always tend to have some little, yet very noticeable accent. I guess that's why Matt just so stands out... When he speaks Japanese, I hear no (noticeable) accent whatsoever! So yeah, pitch accent does make a great difference. It's not crucial for making yourself understood, of course, but it's the difference between a gaijin and (being mistaken for) a part-Japanese!
@@yoshi31713 very interesting summary, thank you!
The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but the learner. Now, *I* am the master.
-Matt
Only a master of evil Matt.
-George
Hello there
@@darthrevan4251 General Kenobi!
@@rd-ub2ox You are a bold one!
The fact that pitch accent in Japanese is equivalent to stress accent in English should make it clear how important it is for proper pronunciation.
Edit: Never said your pronunciation has to be perfect.
As a native English speaker, I can tell you that I was not taught about word stresses until like college. We may have mentioned it before in passing, but barely discussed it.
Like most native English speakers, I learned word stresses/emphasis naturally, through hearing other people say the words and essentially copying them. That's why I don't think pitch accent is really important to study, unless you're trying to perfect your Japanese.
I'm about 7 months into my Japanese learning, and I've noticed recently that I tend to pronounce the pitches to most of the words I use correctly. For example, 髪 vs 神. But no one taught me these pitch accents. I have been doing audio listening, like podcasts. And my primary anki deck uses audio from native Japanese speakers. As I repeat what they say and mimic them, over time, I start picking up the pitch accent. It's only when I think about it, or hear the wrong version, that I really notice the pitch accent. Right now, becoming fluent and being able to read and listen to Japanese, as well as communicate, is more important to me.
That's my just two cents.
Of course, I'm not saying you can't focus on pitch accent. I'm a fan of MattVsJapan and have used a lot of Refold's strategy. I just personally don't think it's worth the focus until you're advanced and quite fluent in Japanese and trying to become an expert.
@@blahblahsuperanon the difference is that most English native speakers are used to hearing foreign accents
Whereas most Japanese people aren't
@@R0Tl Pitch accent doesn't need to be a focus. It's just in the background. The choice is to ignore it or to not ignore it. Your brain didn't ignore it, and now you know the right pitch for words. But not everyone is like you in that a lot of people become fluent in Japanese and don't realize they're using the wrong pitch accents. So for them, it's an active choice, one anyone can easily make near the beginning to start noticing pitch.
I'm a native English speaker and I've never heard of word stresses or stress accent until I read this this comment 🤣
I disagree. As far as I’m aware, stress accent (in this sort of context) is only to differentiate verbs vs nouns when the word is the same. Any other homophones are the same. Other types of English stress patterns aren’t even close to being comparable.
Pitch accent is far more common for distinguishing homophones in Japanese, but it’s still not all of them. There are plenty of homophones that have the exact same pitch accent and kanji/context is the only way of knowing. Sometimes kanji is the only way. “Hair” and “paper” have the exact same pitch accent. Not only can you cut both, but you can cut both with scissors.
While they serve similar purposes (distinguishing homophones), English stress accent has a far narrower, much more specific usage, so I would fervently disagree that they are “equivalent”.
I agree with both of you. To use a metaphor, you are trying to train people to be professional chefs and George is trying to teach people to be home cooks. What someone wants to become is really up to them. Some will find all the gratification they need in just being able to cook something that they think tastes good, others will want to learn to cook well enough to impress other chefs. I think that's what the whole pitch accent debate comes down to.
Well explained!
Very well said! I was trying to find the words to say exactly that. And damn I would like to mimic some professional cooking technics and recipes for fun but after a certain point enough is enough.
From personal experience, speaking to foreigners or me being the foreigner, conversations light up and there is real connection and joy when there are interesting topics, honesty and good intentions. At that point (at least for me) the other's pronunciation becomes something you just embrace, like a haircut they have and you didn't like when you first met them but now you think "it's actually kind of fun", if that makes sense. On the contrary I've been disappointed by people who just nail the pronunciation and at first and super-impress you (because let's admit it, a foreigner speaking your not-that-popular language with a good pronunciation _is_ exciting). I think of that as a firework. After a few minutes your excitement caused by their well-trained pronunciation starts plummeting and you are left with the core of what they are saying and who they are, which is sometimes disappointing.
*On top of that, if both me and the other person are foreigners I sometimes catch myself starting to actually like _their_ characteristic foreign pronunciation but that's another story.
i think that misses matt's point though; it's really not that difficult to train yourself to hear pitch accent, and even if you only want to be a "home cook" you can be a much better one with really not much more time or effort.
But pitch accent isn't as hard to learn as people make out - otherwise how would anyone learn truly tonal languages? To use your metaphor, it's like being a home cook who ignores seasoning. Sure they've made the dish, and it seems just like the real thing. But with just a tiny bit more effort sprinkled on top, you can really make it taste amazing.
@@moonlitspud is it _that_ easy or to keep going with those cooking metaphors, it's like having to go to the super market first to buy the herbs and spices and then you can just use them? Because I can certainly understand why someone would not want to go through that then, when they just want to make a dish 😂. On the contrary if you're passionate about learning a language you can go through every obstacle.
I discovered pitch accent because in a conversation I meant to say one thing and it sounded like something completely unrelated because of the pitch I used, and a Japanese person pointed it out to me. So yes, pitch accent might not be the be all, end all of Japanese language learning, but if you dismiss it as "unimportant" I would conclude you just don't know what you're talking about.
I like to think of it as like syllables in English. If you pronounce SYllable as in syLLAble, it may sound wierd
@@mathew2378 while using English's stress patterns as a metaphor is better than nothing at all, it's not even half story. In english the difference between 1-"SYllable" and 2-"syLLAble" is *stark*
no.1-length is 2-1-1
no.2-length is 1-2-1
no.1-volume is 3-1-1
no.2-volume is 1-3-2
no.1-pitch is 2-1-1
no.2-pitch is 1-3-1
And lastly, the phonemes themselves are different:
SYllable is pronounced /ˈsɪləbəl/
Meanwhile syLLAble is pronounced /ˈsɪlæbəl/
In japanese though, the length is the same, the volume is the same, the phonemes are the same, the _Only_ difference is pitch.
Un saludote, Rafy!
Same, I really thought pitch accent concept doesn't exist, when I heard that Japanese is a flat language. That was the biggest lie 😭
Japanese people don't give a shit about pitch-accent. Since when that person you're talking about became the rule?
I love that despite you and George not exactly agreeing and sharing same ideas that you guys can collaborate in some kind of different ways and still produce constructive content for the community
I like your content Matt, but I side with George on this.
1. you don't actually appear to be addressing his actual point. Instead you're misrepresenting what his position on this it.
a. George isn't saying PA isn't important. If a beginner wants to spend time studying PA then they can. George's point is that studying PA isn't necessary.
ie: not studying PA doesn't necessarily entail a person will be 'bad' at Japanese speaking to the point where they are not easily understood.
2. George's argument is exactly in line with my own personal experiences - I spent 0 hours studying PA and it hasn't hampered my experience talking with Japanese people; especially my Japanese relatives (my wife's side).
3. Your own responses actually refute your own position and prove George's.
a. George isn't saying PA isn't important to Japanese people, and the clip you included shows that *even native Japanese make PA mistakes. And these aren't beginner foreigners. ie: PA isn't necessary for a beginner to study, because even native Japanese who have studied it still make errors that need correcting.
b. You even acknowledge/concede that you can understand what George is saying in that clip *despite the PA errors you point out. Which is George's point: one doesn't necessarily need accurate PA to be able to speak Japanese that can be understood.
4. I asked my wife to listen to some of your own videos of you speaking Japanese and she could tell that you are not a native Japanese - she picked up on the fact that you're a foreigner. So despite your studies with PA it doesn't appear to have yielded you a native sound.
In summery: George and I are saying that if a beginner wants to also add PA to their studies as they start out then they can, but it's not a necessary aspect. A beginner is still capable of speaking comprehensible Japanese without having to study PA.
so you're wife who watched a white guy speak Japanese, came to the conclusion that he isn't Japanese?!?! crazy!!!
I've watched both videos, it has been interesting listening to both sides of this discussion. George made a really interesting point in his video that wasn't brought up here.
"Language is a tool to communicate, not an art to perfect."
Having thought about this, I disagree with George's take. I think language can be both a tool and an art. Each person has different goals when learning a language. Some just want to become communicative (a tool) while others strive to master their second language (an art).
It might be worthwhile for people consider whether their second language's value is as a tool, an art, or both.
I don't think either side is aiming for perfection, to be fair. I think the real disagreement is that of doing literally nothing to improve your pitch accent, and doing just a little (for example, use and try to internalize dogan's course).
I mainly agree with that quote, although wouldn't a little accent practice make language more effective as a tool? Taking it all the way to Matt's level could probably be considered an art, but just a couple hours on pitch practice helps so so much
Damn right son
Oh wow you’re alive? Thought North Korea got you
Every language is an art, and pitch accent isn't discounted from Japanese's unique syntax and grammar. Pitch accent is part of that tool, it's a small part yet produces a big impact. Of course this is my opinion because I don't want people fighting here and there. Just study pitch accent, it's important.
Matt bro stop I NEED TO immerse but your content is too good 😭😭😭😭😭
FAX
I think George's main point is he doesn't want new learners to get overwhelmed and think about quitting and that they should only learn pitch accent if they're very enthusiastic about the language, and I think that's the fair point to make.
They thing is tho, which kind of negates his whole argument, is that in the refold method pitch accent is not focused on/studied until wayyy far in the process. By the time its recommended u start working on ur pitch accent, u will have been learning the language for so long that ur already committed. Its not something that is supposed to be studied as a beginner. Im interested to see how this is discussed in the debate.
@@remsy9935 Of course, but a lot of beginners do stumble upon videos about pitch accents and then feel like it's too much. I saw several people in George's comments who said things like "I was discouraged about learning Japanese because of pitch accent but your video made me feel better".
@@megamannt125 I bet most people like that won't even seriously learn Japanese, because if they "discouraged about learning Japanese because of pitch accent" instead of being "excited to learn this new "stress system" in the language they would love to learn" or smth like that, it means they don't truly want to learn Japanese, they're just having fun. There's nothing wrong with that approach, it's just George should've said "it's okay to not care about pitch accent if you're just having fun learning languages" or smth like that, but not "pitch accent is not important"
True, but passing that of as something that's not necessary at all isn't the best move, in my opinion. If it's important to someone who wants to sound as close to native as possible, then it's definitely important to learn. You literally won't be able to sound near native without it, but again as loads of people said if you understand that your Japanese is going to be ok but never really near perfect then not learning pitch accent is completely cool too! I just think putting a video out saying that it's dumb and people shouldn't learn it is in itself kinda dumb.
Okay, but the way he makes the point is totally wrong. He’s making it seem like it’s a cardinal sin to study pitch accent. “YoUr bRaiN WiLL LiTeRaLLy eXpLoDe!” I mean, come on, really? He’s just being so childish, and it makes him look really unintelligent. Like, just look at the title of his video “Pitch Accent Is Stupid.” If he really wanted to only convey that he didn’t want learners to feel overwhelmed, he could’ve picked like literally any other title rather than the obnoxious one that he chose.
Halfway through the video, As much as I love George I believe that every point you are making is extremely valid. I love that you pointed out that it is good enough and will be understood by most people because I think that is generally the vibe that George aims for with his learning curriculum whereas I think that your methods are more pointed towards perfectionism which isn't necessarily a bad thing but may not be everybody's goal
It's funny, because George is still speaking as an English speaker with stress-accenting words. When he said "えいご" it was like saying, "Therefore" where we stress the first syllable, like he was trying to put emphasis in the word "English" to make a point.
Yeah, I actually mentioned this in a comment as well but it’s one of the super common pitch accent mistakes English speakers made since it’s how you would stress words in English. Japanese people don’t emphasize words in the same way, or in ways that compromise the pitch accent. I remember Dogen giving an example where he stressed the が in 学校 as well when he wanted to emphasize it.
Yeah it's a super easy mistake to make. Same with changing tone to indicate a question in a tonal language. I often need to stop myself from instinctively rising my tone at the end of a name when asking a taxi driver to take me somewhere in Thailand.
Dang this is complicated! How do you guys learn this?
@@bookwormbon482 Tae Kim's Grammar guide, immersion (simply listening to the language for many long hours), reading material in the target language, and having a practice buddy who knows the language. That's my tactics and I don't really try that hard to learn it.
@@papafhill9126 i think they were asking how you guys learn pitch accent, not the language in general
When worlds collide, you can run, but no can hide.
You'll laugh so hard you'll swear you died
Don't neglect phonology when learning languages in general.
*Cough cough* Xiaoma
@@brownbricks6017 yeah I don't speak Mandarin and I know for a fact there's no way his Chinese pronounciation is really that great huhu
@@Geo-st4jv How do you know if you don't speak Mandarin? Maybe you should make an effort to learn a language yourself before you start the trashtalk... "for a fact"...
@@Geo-st4jv Even if it's not, why do people care so much? I'm a native English speaker and there are so many English learners with terrible accents. Idc bc I know they're trying. As long as I can mostly understand them, that's good enough for me.
@@blahblahsuperanon and they probably have a flawless accent in their native language as most people tend to....
I really enjoy both yours and George's respectful discussion on this and I think you are both correct, the difference is in the subtlety of the learner. All learners should know the basics of pitch accent which allows them the opportunity to unlock how much focus they place on it during their studies. Knowing the basics can aide in imitation early when listening, however getting it wrong doesn't impede understanding so shouldn't be a concern as you can still be fluent without it.
This really relates to every language when you think about it. When I hear someone speaking Spanish I can tell almost instantly that they aren’t a native speaker by their pronunciation. As you said, the message is still getting across but hearing mistakes over and over can be distracting when you’re having a long conversation.
Really? I live in Hawaii where we have immigrants from all areas of Asian with strong accents here but it's never really distracting or hard to have conversations. Maybe I'm just used to it since I've been around it my whole life.
@@WayofRamen I don’t think it’s hard to have conversations but what’s distracting is hearing a word pronounced the wrong way, it doesn’t stop me from getting what they are saying but I’m just thinking about what they said that didn’t sound natural is all. I guess what I’m saying is if you were to speak to someone who is native in your language you rarely hear a mistake in pronunciation so when you do hear it in conversation it sticks out.
@@ジョシュ-k4u then I shouldn’t speak to anyone Japanese until I have mastered pitch accent so not to bother them with my speaking?? That makes no sense my friend. And as a fellow native Spanish speaker I am ashamed you look down on those who take the time and effort to learn our beautiful language when is not “native level” like you mentioned in your comment.
@@pavelmartinez4617 He never said anything close that. He just said that it is distracting when people make mistakes, not that he looks down on people who make mistakes. Also I am not sure where you got the idea that you have to master pronunciation before you talk with someone. Just like how you can make word choise mistakes and grammar mistakes when speaking you can also make pitch accent mistakes. When speaking a language it is inevitable that you will make a mistake.
@@pavelmartinez4617 I never said any of that. All I’m saying is that it’s noticeable to a native speaker when you hear a non native speak the language. Also I don’t look down on anyone learning any language, the more languages everyone speaks the more we can better understand each other instead of focusing on what makes us so different.
I mean when I learned English at some point I realized how important intonation and pronunciation in the language are, so I suppose in Japanese it's the same. Like the word "record" used as a noun has different stress than used as a verb.
That's not pitch accent though.
@@sk8_bort he didn't say it's pitch accent tho lol
@@Michaelatkins15 I mean, this whole discussion was about pitch accent, but I guess you're right XD
@@sk8_bort Pitch accent is the manifestation of pronunciation and intonation in Japanese, as is stress accent in English. They are completely analogous.
If something seems difficult to learn, your mind will always try to tell you that you do not really need to improve in this specific area and that your life will be more or less the same with or without this additional skill. So it’s good to have some other sources beside your own thought patterns.
I don't understand people who denigrate others who try to be good at something. It happens in every pursuit not just language pursuits, but it's an attitude I often see in native English speakers who study other languages. Trying to learn good pronunciation isn't the same as trying to be perfect and it's not a waste of time.
Agreed. It's a way for people who don't want to do the difficult work to absolve themselves without guilt yet still be able to brag about speaking "great" Japanese or whatever other language. They try to pull others down to their level so that no one is truly great.
I think you both have very good points. I think George is guiding us through the summit of the mountain, getting us more familiar with the terrain. While you're basically a pro climber who comes down off the cliff to show us the stuff you've found at the top. Like, yeah, it's interesting and important, but it's just not something very early beginners should be concerning themselves with until they have more of a grasp on what they're actually learning.
Basic intermediate level learner here: I can't speak from expertise, but it seems to me that the most efficient way to learn any language is to make sure you don't pick up any mistakes early that you then have to 'unlearn'. Get things right first, and you'll learn quicker and more efficiently. This is why listening and reading 'natural' Japanese is so much better than using simplified teaching guides. Dogans pitch accent courses are way beyond my personal needs but just understanding what pitch accent is and when and how to use it has been a big help for me in learning how to 'hear' Japanese and in the importance in following natural rhythms when talking. Incidentally, on the point of Japanese people and pitch, non of my Japanese friends seem to know much about pitch, but then again, how many English speakers know what a stress accent is?
Pitch-accents vary according to dialects. When learners of Japanese speak Japanese, I often find myself trying to detect which dialect they are familiar with and based on. Some of them might have stayed somewhere in Japan and have friends that speak a dialect among them. I don't think it's necessary to follow a specific set of the 'correct' pitch accent, that is, a specific dialect including the standard Japanese, because all the speakers I've come across so far are quite intelligible as long as they don't try to speak very very quickly. On the other hand, you are much easier to listen to, when following a specific set of pitch-accent. So I think it's up to learners.
Yes but knowing standard is safe I think. Because most people know it and it's much easier. I mean much easier for me to understand correct pitch
Exactly. Even native speakers (especially people who lived in several places) mix up accents all the time.
fluency first, then pitch accent. learning japanese is hard enough as it is, it's considered one of the hardest on the rosetta stone ranking up there with arabic. It's hard enough learning non-latin characters, different syntax, etc to tell people to learn pitch accent on top.
If you're fluent, then it would too late to fix your pitch accent lol
When I was in college I learnt Japanese for two years, pitch accent was never mentioned. So I'm really not sure how important the pitch accent is. Then again, I still consider myself a beginner. Thinking about this logically, imagine the number of foreigners who come to the United States and speak English with an accent. When the person speaks, do we focus on their accent or do we focus on the conversation we're having? I've met so many people with an extremely high level of English and they still had an accent, yet our conversation were very fun and intriguing. To my understanding, language is a tool you use to communicate with people. Therefore it's probably not necessary for someone to stress themselves out over sharpening it like a knife. Lastly, I hope people are not discouraged to start learning Japanese from all this talk on pitch accent. The language is already quite challenging (for native speakers of English) as it is. What's the point of adding another layer to that?
I really appreciate your point regarding language learning being hard on its own and how the most important thing is to get your message across.
i think the point is just to acknowledge it at least. your brain will do the rest if you let it. once you perceive it there wont be any extra effort involved.
My university textbook “Japanese the Spoken Language” introduced pitch accent from the very first chapter, and the entire book (words and sentences) was diagrammed.
Same, it was introduced but not stressed or tested. I'm fuent, but having not really studied pitch, my pitch is off, but as mentioned it rarely causes comunication issues.
As a beginner in Japanese I am very grateful for these videos from George and Matt, they really care about creating relevant content for people studying Japanese. They both care about teaching in their own way and are willing to create constructive content, not just bland content to attack the other, but instead discuss important points regarding the art of studying japanese. Thank you guys for all you do :)!
I'm Japanese and I think it's important to set a clear goal. If you just want to communicate with Japanese people, you unironically don't have to go out of your way to be a linguistics nerd. But if you want to sound natural and completely fit in, you have to because if you're not a child anymore you can't learn everything just by immersion and you're gonna need additional information about concepts such as pitch accent.
To be completely honest, listening to someone like George is like I'm listening to some dialect of Japanese I've never come across. I can totally understand what he's saying, but it always feels kind of off. But Japanese me can't point that out. 😓
I was literally watching that video when I got the notification for this one 🤣
That Aot skit of yours you did awhile ago was awesome bro
@@elitist8159 haha that's funny getting recognized here thank you
I think you both make good points about pitch accent. It seems that your priorities in terms of Japanese speaking are different so your opinions will always clash. George is concerned with being able to communicate, to hold a conversation. While your priority is to reach a native level of speaking. For people learning the language, I do think that George is a good place to start, because If you focus on accent right from the beginning I do think you will become discouraged along with the thousands of kanji that your trying to remember.
"George is concerned with being able to communicate, to hold a conversation."
Yeah and if you pronounce every word wrong, communicating with someone is actually very difficult.
As Matt points out, he and George are Gaijin. Japanese people will not be concerned with their pitch accent. Of course if you say something wrong you’re gonna get a word repeated for clarification. The problem when being a Gaijin speaking with a good accent is Japanese people will think you can speak Japanese when you can’t. It’s almost better in the beginning to sound like a foreigner..
I agree with you that pitch accent is important. The classic example is the difference between hashi as in chopsticks (箸) and hashi as in bridge (橋). It would be difficult to think of a time where you would be misunderstood because of this due to context, but it's still a good idea to speak correctly as much as you can.
I have noticed in practice though that some Japanese people pronounce the same word with a different pitch accent. As a result, I've started to pronounce some words differently than the average person as well. An example is sushi. Anyone else had this experience?
"can have chopsticks please?" but then the waiter brings a bridge
@holklus That would be funny 😄 Maybe you could have chopsticks shaped like a bridge as a compromise.
@@SmartJapanHacks lol
The 箸-橋 rule is completely opposite in the west. Even within a prefecture, there are lots of different accents. Personally, I automatically switch pitch accents depending on the person I’m talking to.
Minimal pairs with different accents are cute, but hardly the rule. Many words have no “accent” or pitch drop at all.
The most important rule is, speak Japanese by oscillating between two pitches about a musical third or fourth apart. Westerners don’t know how to do that.
The second part of the rule is, that in the steady stream of syllables, the beginning of words are marked by a rise or fall in pitch. You must listen for that to understand what words you’re hearing!
The Dead Man’s Rule applies. Only the dead can stop doing anything, such as “stop putting stress into Japanese words.”
But we the living can learn new behaviors to replace bad habits. Such as, learning how to chant, alternating low and high pitch, every time we speak Japanese.
Only then can we really hear and understand spoken Japanese at speed. Or pick up where the “accent” or pitch drops are in some words.
That blue font on the thumbnail looks awfully familiar
確かに標準語でも、発音、イントネーション間違えてたら勘違いされる場合が多い。その上、他の言語と同じく、pitch accentと人々の独特な発音によって大体どこら辺から育てられて来たのか分かることが多いのでそれももう一つの大切なところだと思った。いつも面白い動画を作ってくれてありがとう～日本に住んでいるハーフから(人''▽｀)
FYI In Cantonese, there are 6 pitches, but in English and Japanese, there are only two.... so ... what's the fuss abt it lol
As an English native speaker that can immediately pick up on a foreigner's (English) accent, I have never once thought that it was to their detriment, and neither will a Japanese person think this about you. All it does is add to your charm. Word choice is far more important, as word choice can change the meaning of something entirely. For example, a beginner studying the language might think お世辞 means 'compliment' (positive nuance), when actually it means 'lip-service' (negative nuance).
Don't get me wrong, Matt delivers a great message and I think that pitch accent is also very important, but it will not prevent you from being understood (unless you are woefully bad). One thing I do think though, is that the fastest way to fix pitch accent is though communication with Japanese speakers, on a daily basis. If you think 'I cannot communicate with Japanese speakers every day', then that leads me to my next point. Why are you trying to perfect a speech pattern that you do not live inside of?
Embrace who you are, and fix things one by one as they cause communication issues, or as Japanese becomes a regular part of your life. Nobody will judge you apart from you, especially not Japanese people that have been studying English their whole lives yet cannot speak English at all.
Sounded so french Canadian when messing up the English pitch accent haha.
As someone who speaks another Asian pitch accent language, Cebuano, I can attest that we do hear all the pitch errors when a foreigner speaks. We definitely notice, but we're nice about it, since it's uncommon for people to learn Cebuano, and we can understand what the person is saying. If they really want to improve their pronunciation, they can ask for help.
For example, the difference between afternoon and Japan in Cebuano is a high pitch on one syllable. First syllable pitch is afternoon (hápon), second syllable pitch is Japan (hapón). Cebuano also has many Non pitch words, which makes it pretty hard for speakers of any language where there's almost always a pitch somewhere, often accompanying the stressed syllable.
Coming from another pitch language, I think the first point is applicable, where I can get by on what I hear cause it's pretty distinct to me. For most other speakers, I would definitely recommend practicing to hear pitch and learning to separate it from stress, which is also where most of the mistakes George makes are. He stressed the Ei in えいご and pitched it that way, and the same with にほんご, and many other words. In English the pitch comes with the stress, so it's not something that's ever talked about, which makes it seem like English is not a pitch language, but it does have pitch. It's like the difference between the noun and verb form of progress: /'proh-gress/ vs /pruh-'gress/ The verb form starts with a low pitch and rises on the stressed syllable. Learning to hear and separate pitch from stress will help in both hearing and speaking Japanese better.
I think they both make good points in their own way, but I also feel like Matt isn't fully comprehending George's basic argument. Go watch George's video, and then watch this one again and you'll see what I mean.
For another perspective, Steve Kaufmann also has a video about this topic called "Pitch Accent: Is It Important?" in which he basically agrees with George.
For me, pitch accent was worth it to learn besides just improving pronunciation.
1. It helped me greatly with my listening skills. When you learn pitch accent, you naturally pay closer attention to what the other person is saying.
2. It's not an endless pursuit like vocabulary or grammar. While there might always be a word/grammar point you don't know about, after you learn how to hear pitch and the rules of pitch accent (particles, verbs, adjectives, compounds, etc) you can just pick up accent from audio alone. I'm still going to learn all the rules because I'm a nerd, lol
3. My teachers start pitch from lesson 1 in the textbook so that you don't have to correct your mistakes later. Bad habits die hard after all.
4. It just feels good to speak proper Japanese with the right intonation. I love learning Japanese even more now.
My 2 cents: when learning another language, be sure to understand what level you're trying to achieve. I'm Italian, English is my second language and I took French in high school. While I studied a lot more about English and the immense variety of pronunciation differences, I wasn't very good with French (I can read it, write it but speaking is much harder). I still think I achieved what I was looking for (a good level of English to visit or watch English related countries/content and a good enough level of French to be able to read French literature or news).
I wouldn't go that far like George and say "this is useless"; when I hear a foreigner speaking Italian, I can clearly identify whether they're at a native level or not. I wouldn't know why it wouldn't be the same for another person.
12:11
That really hit me.
3 years ago my channel used to be called KouttVsJapan because of this community.
That's UNTIL I noticed all the ego and all the "red pill; blue pill" thing there was going around on the discord server (when it used to cost like 1-3usd to get into).
I immediately got out and changed my name and went on my own with the learning (to be honest was a bit lonely).
I'm glad you guys changed that and seems to be a little bit more modest and friendly now.
I've been studying Japanese for about 6 years and I'm at the level where I've read about a dozen novels. While I was in Japan, I probably spent about a dozen hours studying pitch accent. And while I think I might've been able to hear pitch accent with another dozen hours of studying, I stopped. It was just too frustrating when I thought about the time I could have been studying new words and improving my general ability. While it'd be nice to know pitch accent, I can't justify it to myself when I'm still not satisfied with my general ability. I care more about speaking fluently than pronouncing perfectly. I'd like to believe I'll pick up pitch accent again, but perhaps after I'm fluent in reading and listening. It's not ideal, but at least I'm not practicing speaking much nowadays anyway.
It’s time to drop reading for a bit, subscribe to audiobook.jp, and start “shadowing” aloud at 0.5-0.7 speed. You’re ready. You’re not missing 1,000 kanji or 10,000 words. What you’re missing is 10,000 hours of listening and speaking. Pick narrators whose voices match yours, and subjects you already know but have no Japanese vocabulary in. You’ll experience the thrill of figuring out vocabulary on the fly. You’ll realize that even kanji are meant remind speakers of words they know by ear, not to teach words they haven’t heard. And you’ll find yourself speaking along with shockingly steady rhythm and loudness, while oscillating between two pitches about 3-4 steps apart. You’ll realize that Japanese is always sung, and you’ll never speak it again with American stress or pitch patterns..
The thing is, I've seen plenty of foreigners who can speak fluently but their pitch accent is all over the place and it sounds really awkward. Speaking quickly =/= speaking accurately. There are native Japanese who speak hesitantly and choose their words very carefully before speaking, but there are no Japanese who speak with the wrong pitch accent (for their dialect). If you want to stand out as having exceptional Japanese that's the thing to focus on.
I don’t speak Japanese, I’m a chinese major, however i can comprehend that Japanese pitch accent is not exactly the same to chinese tones, however i can comprehend they are both very important. I makes language easier on the ears. Some of the suggestions others mentioned like shadowing language really helped me
すご…こんな感じで音程を一つ一つ勉強してるんや…私の英語のモチベーションになるわ、今のレベルに満足せず細かいところまで習得します！
Matt and George bout to have a verbal fight, each screaming at a different pitch
The difference is, Matt's pitch will be correct ;-D
Recently, I've been considering the importance of pitch accent to fluency, and I guess I have complicated ideas about it. I have done very little "book learning" of Japanese in favor of learning primarily from participating in real-life conversations (whether spoken or over text). Being a pretty good mimic and having a habit of repeating what I hear, I have long been at a point where I get specific compliments on my intonation and fluency, but I am also aware that I have a limited ear for pitch. When you reach this level of fluency though, it can and does come up in conversation because as you mentioned, native Japanese speakers frequently catch themselves and each other making mistakes in pitch or intonation. Often it's a side effect of regional dialects having different patterns, but the fact is that it's noticeable enough that you can often tell someone's "not from around here" just from those "mistakes." So while I recognize that it is definitely an important element to real fluency and getting closer to native-level Japanese, the fact that even native speakers often disagree on pitch patterns gives me a good excuse to continue avoiding that kind of sit-down studying that I really don't enjoy.
Excellent video! I’d like to also point out something you missed that further strengthens your argument. The mistakes he makes aren’t on even remotely rare words. The mistakes are on some of the most common words in the entire Japanese language. He will have heard them literally tens of thousands of times and yet he still gets them wrong, so clearly imitation without foundational pitch accent knowledge is never going to work. It would be a different story if he only messed up on rare words….
@@valentinoleynik1255 Did you mean to say "Dialect"?
@@valentinoleynik1255 The dialects used in the most northern regions of Japan (like Aomori) are much closer to Tokyo Japanese than George's Japanese. More importantly, people from such regions who spend any significant time in Tokyo (or a lot of time conversing in and listening to Tokyo Japanese) are able to imitate Tokyo Japanese far, FAR better than George does.
すごい誕生日プレゼントです🎁🎊 ありがとございます
With this kind of shade I'm expecting a rap battle
Rap battle in Japanese come on make it happen matt
Hahah
「マット」
ジョージ先生バカめ、
アクセントのことを、
いつも小学生のように泣くぜ、
「ジョージ」
まだまだだねって言い出したアホ、
カッコいいと思いそう自分の箱、
Pitch accent being important has to be the most exaggerated thing youtubers made up to sell you their shit lesson plans. It's probably last on the list of things to focus on. You're not gonna sound native before knowing lots of words and having lots of experience. Pitch accent is only a small part of that.
Imagine if English teachers started making whole channels dedicated to stress in English. Such a small insignificant thing to focus on. It's strange. It's really just mystifying something that's really rather simple to make money, misdirecting newcomers in the process. And the funny thing is Matt's pitch accent isn't even perfect.
Being "good enough" is good enough for most people. Not everyone has to be a perfectionist in a chosen language. People usually just want to be able to communicate. Once you're able to communicate first, then of course you'll be able to correct and tweak your speaking with the help of native speakers AS YOU SPEAK TO THEM. Overly focusing on pitch when just starting out can turn people off and make them give up learning the language in the first place. Then nothing would matter.It's already hard enough to stay motivated. Let people learn in a nice and easy way so they can at least talk to natives and get further help. Nobody likes a stickler.
Well said. I can't say that I'm good at all at pitch accent, or Japanese in general. However, I understand that it makes one sound fluent. And that's basically it. Most adults who learn a new language...maybe moving to another country in the process...NEVER speak with a natural local accent. George Trombley is like that, and that's fine. Just like a French or Japanese or Mexican person who moved to America will almost undoubtedly not sound American, neither will most foreigners who live in Japan. So in one way, it's not all that important if you can listen to an immigrant with no problems. But if you want to sound natural, then it's a must. It just comes down to how much you actually want to sound natural. At any rate, listening out for local pronunciations is worthwhile, even if you can never mimic it. Heck, I can't even speak like an Australian or British person except in (largely stereotypical) pre-memorized phrases.
I am native Japanese and oh my goodness, YOU NAILED IT!!! If we listen to you and George reading exactly the same sentences, trust me, 100% of Japanese native speaker would judge you are way too fluent than George. You are the best!
I watched that pitch accent video; it was one of the first I came across from your channel. I loved it. Would like to see more of those.
Pitch accent is important I’m married to a Japanese and my wife always comment’s when my accent is wrong eg high and low tones, and my Japanese is very basic
Very informative. I'm glad I watched this now at the beginning of my Japanese journey. This will save me time by getting it right from the beginning before trying to fix bad habits later.
ピッチアクセントが間違ってる外人さんは多いからすぐ「あ、この人、外人だな」ってすぐ気付く。
すぐわかる。まあ「間違っている」というよりはそれは方言みたいなもんだけど。
Even if one is not looking for perfection/mastery learning at least the basic pitch accent will always be worth it. You don’t even have to learn everything about pitch accents which may be hard but at least some basic ideas to be able to distinguish between similar sounds. I think the point that Matt is trying to make is that, you don’t lose a lot by learning a little bit of pitch accent but you have so much to gain, so why not.
I'm learning Finnish but I still watch all your videos fully
me too lol I should be immersing right now.
You raise some fair points. It is good to be exposed to a lot of details in the language and to at least learn the basics. I have had people misunderstood what I've said because I pitched the word incorrectly. I still find myself agreeing more with George on this front. He might not have the most perfect pronunciation, but I still like the sound and flow of his language better than others who have mastered pitch accent. It feels that some are trying too hard and it shows.
To be fair, I have only studied the basics of pitch accents so perhaps my opinions is not well-informed. I am open to change down the road. That said, I have never devoted much time to studying stress (or the IPA) in English. Do I sound like a native speaker? No, nor do I want to. The world would be less fun if everyone sounded like movie Americans. I suppose that Japanese, being the language of a homogeneous nation, is decidedly less flexible. The nature of the language also demands more accuracy.
In the end, I agree that worshiping personalities and idolizing them is stupid. No one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes. Thanks for taking the time to making a video. I find the discussion intriguing.
My mother tongue is a pitch accent language and some of the leaders in church are Americans. I internally scream/correct them when they preach with the wrong pitch-accent. There's something alienating about it, even though I can understand what he's going for haha. Bad pitch accent slows the flow of the conversation (having to consider what they might be saying/making them repeat themselves), changes the meaning of words and makes you sound a bit "challenged" tbh.
But I agree with George's philosophy of not over-complicating language learning. Throwing oneself into the challenge with bravery is much better than being anxious because of pitch-accent.
I think you a d George are both somewhat right. I think you're right that you shouldn't completely ignore pitch accent but I think you shouldn't spend a long time actively studying it. My tutor basically tells me that I shouldn't concentrate on pitch accent beyond immitating.
When reading, she will correct my accent only when it breaks my flow ( yes correct accent usually makes pronounciation somewhat easier) or when she thinks it sounds cringe to her.
I have done this. When I first learned English I would say thermomemeter as thermo-meter
Your videos are so much on point - very satisfying to listen to! Keep up this great work Matt!
the easiest example when conveying the importance of pitch accent is to look at english words with a verb meaning and a noun meaning. Lets take "record". For words like this, you stress the first part if you want to use the noun meaning and the second part if you want to use the verb meaning. Sure, you can understand it, it just takes more effort to understand and it stands out
I'm Japanese and I hope Matt will see this comment. I like watching your videos on language acquisition and they are extremely helpful but when It comes to pitch accent I can't disagree more. Pitch accent in Japanese isn't like the English stress or Chinese tone at all. The reason is that Japanese pitch accent greatly varies across regions in Japan, so the way George says えいご can be common in some places out of Tokyo, despite the word length, vowel and consonant which are basically the same in every part of Japan . English stress is like the opposite; where you put stress in a word "about" for instance is basically the same in English speaking countries despite the vowels that can be different across regions and countries. So the Japanese pitch accent is rather more like English vowel and it can be more flexible and variable. If you say that the way George says えいご is wrong because it's supposed to be pronounced "え↑いご(いご with higher tone", it's just like you're saying "People in Canada and UK pronounce a word "about" wrongly in its vowels" but it's obviously nonsensical. I'm sad that majority of Japanese people feel ashamed about their own non-Tokyo accents and this Tokyo-centralized view is getting dominant in Japan. I hope Japanese learners won't be so obsessed with the Tokyo pitch accent unless you aim to acquire perfect Tokyo accent. Japan is not only Tokyo or Kanto area.
sounds true, but even then people should stick to a certain pitch-system, while japanese learner don't go with any system but speak at random pitches. That should be more bothersome than speaking in a non-tokyo pitch system to a japanese listene?
Meh, I’m not super knowledgeable but I think this more or less proves the point of the video. If I was talking to someone who, for example, spoke with an cleanly American accent 75% of the time but mixed in Canadian/UK/Australian/Whatever pronounciations, it would be WEIRD, possibly CONFUSING, and for intents and purposes WRONG. Now, if I was speaking to someone who was from the Scotland and had a Scottish accent, then of course they’re not wrong.
I guess what I’m saying is, consistency matters. If your going all willy nilly with the rules then it’s not really proper for ANY dialect, hm?
それは焦点ズレまくりだろ。より"自然に聞こえる事”を目的としてるんだから。方言ごちゃ混ぜでしゃべるやつなんかいない。あと方言を恥じてるやつとか聞いたこともない。本当に日本人か？ You really Japanese? I doubt it.
exactly! I am Chinese, and when I see them rubbing against each other becoz of this, it's a joke lol people talk differently~ and that's it. just like when you talk in English, you don't have to really "study" pitches~ you just know it... and in a sentence, the pitches would vary becoz of many reasons....
dialect has nothing to do with pitch accent...and even if pitch accents DID vary that differently by region, imagine someone uneducated about pitch accent says a sentence using different four jumbled up pitch accents. it's not like their dialect can be from four different regions at the same time..bffr
I have definitely been pointed out pitch accent mistakes even in a non-learning environment. For example, I meant to say "plate" (sara), but they thought I was talking about someone named Sarah, so they had to pause me and ask for clarification.
Pitch important is someway and definitely will improve your standard Japanese accent. Japanese accent could differ or slightly differ from area to area since it is a country of multi dialect.
Who are the native English Speaker? Is it the American, British, Australians, etc.. Does Americans likes only to hear American accent? Other than that it will be sound weird or not preferable? You prefer not to go other countries which speaks English but not American accent? Which American accent is the perfect accent? I guess American accent would slightly varies depending on the location as well.
That aggressive black and white transition was freakin' epic.
7:38- 7:50 I really loved that philosophy about pitch accent to learn all kind of languages
On a channel I like, Campanas de Japanese, the teacher addresses the question “do I need to learn the pitch accent for every single word I learn?” by answering “Yes you do. If you learn a new word in English or any other language, you’d check the pronunciation, wouldn’t you?”
Matt, I love your calm and collected response to what was a very energetic and polarising video that could easily be interpreted as a direct insult.
repping the Dogen merch for a pitch accent video, nice
In my experience pitch accent gets really important when you use a lot of uncommon vocabulary. If you mess up the pitch accent in words like 世界、日本語、歴史or食べ物 everybody would still understand you, just because those words are used so regularly. But when words like 演繹、廃仏毀釈or公卿 your pitch accent has to be perfect in order for Japanese speakers to understand you.
It's just like in English. Mispronouncing the word 'tomorrow' might sound strange, but nobody has a problem understanding it. But if out of context somebody says 'anachronistic' and fucks up the pronunciation bad, a lot of people probably would not catch it.
school is finishing, i just finished rrtk and getting through tae kim and considering tango my summer is gonna be lit with immersion
dont quit
@@user-tz1cv9wu8s still got it
Thank you for your insights!
But i feel like I have to disagree with you on one specific point at 9:20 - 927: "If you cant perceive all the subtle differences in sound, then you're not gonna be able to imitate properly." - While certainly true when trying to actively imitate someone, it is not true when subconsciously imitating in my opinion, and I speak from experience there. When I was still very early in my japanese study, maybe half a year in, we had a japanese guy visiting our language class (~5 students). We all did basic introductions first, then he introduced himself. After that I asked him something and without actively thinking about it, I imitated his pronunciation and inflection very well, basically shadowing him after the fact. I was very surprised about that myself in that moment. Since then, while certainly still not perfect, I've been complimented many times on my pronunciation by japanese natives and I have never studied pitch accents. While I cannot disagree on the topic being important, it is not essential. it is possible to learn subconsciously, basically like babies do. Even for tone-deaf people like me ;)
I had came across pitch accents when I acquired a book by Gene Nishi. It felt a little much for me while trying to learn a few sentence structures. Now that I’m studying it even more to make up for lost time, I’m doing my best to incorporate some pitch accents on words I already know. I’m grateful for this content and to do my best to notice it more. It also gives me a new goal to work towards as well.
Keep up the great work.
Have you ever considered that the problem with pitch accent maybe isn’t that you didn’t study it enough, but that the all conscious work (SRS) and early reading (it isn’t explicitly notated in Japanese orthography, correct?) you did do to learn the language interfered with your acquisition process/played a part in fossilizing your pronunciation before the pitch accent bit could be naturally acquired?
After all, if we take Krashen and others seriously, all these kinds of aspects of fluency are never explicitly studied by natives before they are already fluent.
Hey, man. I like you, but i think you're on the wrong on this one.
I think your argument comes from a language learning fetish of sounding like an arbitrary "standard native". In other words, i do think pitch accent it's not that important and foreigners should even embrace their accent which shows their roots and contribute in a different way to japanese culture.
It's kind of disrespectful to purposely not speak their language correctly because you couldn't be bothered to learn a few more things about it.
@@coolbrotherf127 I don't think so. Hear me out: if you hear someone speaking your mother language with correct grammar, being able to communicate anything with you, what do you think at that moment?
"Oh! This person learned my mother language as his third language and he has an accent... That's kind of disrespectful!"
Or do you think:
"Oh! This person learned my mother language as his third language and he has an accent... How nice he took time to learn it!"
The point of LANGUAGE and learning one is communicating. My point is: if you have an accent, that communicates you are a foreigner which... you are. And there's nothing inherently "wrong" about it. For me, there's NO "CORRECT" ACCENT if you are able to communicate in a language and took time to understand the culture around it too...
Anyway, I hope that this makes my stance more clear. If you disagree, let's agree to disagree, my friend!
@@gustavoteles5994 The difference though is that pitch in Japanese, similar to tones in Mandarin or Cantonese, directly changes not just the sound of the words, but also the meaning. By saying words with the wrong pitch, you're just saying the wrong word, not the same word with just a different sound.
A language like English can be easily understood with a different accent as few words can be confused for each other, but Japanese requires the pitch to be consistent to be understood easily due to the large number of homophones.
No one would say some was fluent in speaking English if they just said random words in their sentences instead of the correct words, and I feel it's the same in Japanese. Part of fluency is learning the pitch of words so those listening to you don't have to guess what you're saying.
@@coolbrotherf127 Maybe the solution for that is context like in the example of hashi to chopsticks and bridge. Context will save anyone from that confusion... I think. But, I think that this point you made is strong. Pitch accent grew a little more in importance to me, but idk. I think the point i made is importante too. Anyway, I need to study more japanese too hehe
At the end of they day ill never be a japanese person and perfect pronunciation is not something i expect of 2nd language learners in english either. im kind of on team george on this one. As long as your perfectly comprehensible to native speakers i would deem that as good enough.
Yeah I agree. I'm a native English speaker and I know that the very large majority of L2 English speakers will never sound like me. And guess what? They don't need to. If they can communicate in English and be mostly understood, that's great! They don't need to be perfect, and they'll never sound 100% native anyway. Just like I'll never sound 100% native in the other languages I speak.
There are a lot of benefits to improving a bad accent, and it doesn't take a lot to learn just the basics of pitch accent. Even knowing that pitch accent is a thing can make a difference.
I believe that the boost you get from the ignorance of not caring too much about pitch accent is valuable . Especially when you are the type that strives first and foremost for comprehension . I feel like pitch accent is something you find along the journey and perfect separately once you feel like not having too many loose ends in your comprehension.
As someone who doesn't have much time, i won't bother butchering pitch accent for the better good of comprehension and its faster acquisition. That does not mean i won't come back to correct it at some point.
Holy shit Matt, did you just shift the pitch on the BGM right as you're saying "If you can't perceive the subtle differences in sound, you aren't gonna be able to imitate it". That was a based move.
Edit: It happens between 9:10 and 9:40 if you're interested
Edit2: not so sure about this anymore
Time mark?
@@Ryosuke1208 9:10 ish
Nah it’s just the chord that’s being played by the guitar.
@@sevvv2929 I actually have it a second listen and I think I did mishear. It just would have been epic.
I like your point that the most important thing is to learn to hear it. I'm musically-trained so that's not too hard for me. I also enjoy putting words in OJAD and pressing the button that plays the accent for all the conjugations.
I do agree with most things, but the "American accent" or any other language accent when speaking Japanese doesn't have much to do with pitch accent imho.
You can speak Japanese without influence of accent from any other language, but you can still have your pitch accents wrong. It will, however, be much more easier to understand than people talking like: "Konichiwah. Areegatoh. Watahshee wa Amerikajeen death."
For sure. This is because English accents don't vary by pitch very much - most accent differences in English related to open vowel sounds, which really screw up Japanese (or many other languages).
I've only been studying Japanese for a few months, and it's rough how strongly teachers disagree on every single aspect of it. One book (or channel) will teach you that a certain word is very rude, while another will tell you it's the only polite one. Same with pitch accent - some tell you it's extremely important, others say it's not that big of a deal.
I didn't have this kind of experience when learning any other language. More than anything else it seems to be a matter of opinion (and to some extent probably a dick measuring contest, just as George and Matt said).
I have decided not to worry about it for now and just focus on getting my listening comprehension to a point where I can understand Japanese news and TV in general - then I can attempt to mimic native speakers. Sure, I'll have built up bad habits by then, which will be hard to get rid off, but I'd rather do that than stop studying and reconsider my methods every couple of days because some guy on RUclips said I'm doing it wrong.
Hello, from Portland, Oregon! Thank you so much for advocating pitch accent. In all 6 years of Japanese study in school and on my own, never once did I encounter the idea of pitch accent, until I discovered Dogen last month. I went from 100% confident in my Japanese accent to 0%, but it needed to happen for me to improve! Thanks again 🙏
A japanese-spanish translator here. If a japanese learner came across this video wanting to know the importance of pitch accent, i would give them this piece of advice: If you are not able to perceive something, you won’t become able to perceive it just by studying it.
It's like thinking that you could learn to see unknown colors just by studying really hard about infrared and ultraviolet light. It makes no sense at all.
The problem with Matt’s way of aboarding the issue is that he starts by saying "studying pitch accent helps to improve your listening" (which sounds reasonable), but ends up saying "you NEED pitch accent in order to BE ABLE TO HEAR". Well sorry, but i’ve been able to hear since i was a baby. I didn't learn it from Matt, and probably neither did you. Did Matt objectively prove that japanese people have some 'special japanese hearing' and that foreigners need special training to acquire it? No, he didn’t, and that would be a crazy arbitrary claim. He shows us a video of japanese people arguing about pitch accent and presents that as proof of… what exactly? All it proves is that not all japanese are equally mindful about their own pitch accent in casual conversation.
But what is even more crazy about this whole pitch accent controversy is that the alleged reason we are given to delve into the subject isn't a reason at all.
We should be wary of pitch accent, they say, because "native speakers prefer people who speak in a natural and normal way". What kind of twisted motivation is that? It implies that you, as a language learner, should take into account the preferences of native speakers of a language you don’t fully master yet. How are you supposed to know what those preferences are? You can’t ask the natives themselves because you are not able to fully communicate with them yet… unless they speak your language too.
So the only way of dealing with pitch accent is having a master that speaks your language, just like Matt or Dogen. Forget about inmersion, comprehensive input, or any kind of self-taught acquisition. What you need is a third party who shoves the language down into your brain.
That is the contradiction that this pitch accent "controversy” leads to. If you believe that kind of approach is useful to learn anything, you may as well learn from duolingo (and even THAT would be better).
I don’t know how you can say you can’t learn to hear it, that’s just baffling. When it’s not a part of your native language, it’s super likely you won’t pick up on it without having it pointed out to you. Once it’s pointed out with just a few specific examples, it becomes obvious what pitch accent is. From there, it’s just a matter of practice.
@@glenn7484 I never said "learn to hear", i said "be able to hear". Also, there is a difference between listening and hearing. If you say practice improves listening, that is prefectly fine, i agree with that. Yes, you can learn to listen to a language.
But no one teaches you to HEAR. Your ears do the hearing for you. If they are healthy you hear, if not, you are deaf.
I don't agree with those who claim that i can't HEAR pitch accent. Telling people that they can't hear something is literally acusing them of being deaf. But if they were deaf, they would have trouble hearing ANY language (even their native) not just japanese.
@@PoLanka65 ok well I appreciate precise usage of language, so I’m happy to take your point. Though I did think it was clear that ‘hearing’ in this usage implied consciously noticing.
@@glenn7484 I got your point, and that is why i essentialy agreed with you. But the distinction between those two things was precisely what i was pointing out on my original comment: That the problem with the pitch accent polemicist is that they start by saying something true (that studying it does help to your listening), but then they go nuts and make some absurd claims about a kind of "deafness" of the non-native speakers.
They specially insist on the latter when confronted with the fact that pitch accent is not the most fundamental aspect of japanese, and that learners are correct when they leave it for last among their priorities.
Pitch accent is only important if youre trying to sound native. At someone who has no plans on moving to Japan, I feel like people like me just dont need to spend 100s of hours learning how to speak with an awkward focus on sounding native.
No, pitch accent doesn't matter only if you want to sound native. It matters if you want to be understood by native speakers. It's part of the pronunciation of the spoken language so native speakers will have a hard time understanding you if you don't speak clearly. It doesn't have to take a ton of extra time either if you learn it from the start instead of trying to learn it all at the end.
1:56 Hey, don't be so mean to him😭
Yea, ofcourse learning pitch accent makes you sound more natural, but it actually differ in each region and even in every single one of Japanese people.
And yes, we sometimes make fun of each other about the accent we use😂
I think it just better to speak no ups and downs with no accent at all for beginners.
o, btw I am a Japanese guy.😀
yeah, people speak with different accents and differently in different regions, but it’s always consistent. George’s Japanese has no logic to it, if you do not study the basics of standard Japanese pitch accent you will always have weird inconsistent pitch accent mistakes.
I think speaking flat is horrible advice, it's even worse than a foreign accent because you sound like a robot. I think if you heard someone actually speak how you suggest they do you would quickly change your mind.
What you meant to say is probably that foreigners should speak in a way that doesn't hurt your ears - in other words, not with improper pitch.
@@ルイ-f4g actually there is a region in Japan where they speak with no accent, a flat pitch accent. So I don't think you'll sound like a robot. But if you a foreign, and you sound like a person coming from this region, it's maybe a little bit strange.
@@fedexman Miyazaki lol
@@fedexman What region, because I find that very hard to believe. I think they just think they speak flat, the way a lot of Japanese people seem to believe they speak flat.
I honestly doubt there's a single language that's spoken flat to begin with.
4:25 that's a French Canadian accent LOL (I'm from Montréal)
I thought I was the only one who thought that
I don't think it's valid to say George made 8 mistakes in 30 seconds because you're not considering how many sillables he spoke in that time frame. Supposing he spoke about 150 sillables and only 8 had wrong pitch, he's far from "good enough", but almost perfect.
Yup. I think it's cherry picking to only show how many errors there are. Matt doesn't say how many correct PA George made.
I think he doesn't because he realises that his argument against George carried no to little weight if George's correct PA vastly outnumber his PA errors.
I think these are fair points, and I as a native Swedish speaker feel much more comfortable listening to another native Swedish speaker. I have to put a little bit more effort in to listening to a non native speaker. With that being said, I have worked with foreign co-workers who spoke with an accent and I got used to it after a while and it doesn't feel taxing after some time has passed
Pitch accent study is essential for accent reduction. But a lot of people who OBSESS over it seem to develop a non-expressive robotic "flat" Japanese with proper pitch accent where the base pitch doesn't change. Kinda same thing that Chinese learners go through in the beginning stages but later get rid of. Natives don't talk like that all the time.
i think whether or not you want to ignore pitch accent is entirely up to what level of fluency you want to reach. if you only wish to be able to communicate to get your ideas across fluidly then yeah pitch accent won't matter to you so much but if you're trying to really sound like a native then it's definitely important. it's all down to your own goals in learning japanese
Imagine speaking English without putting stress on words, and reading every word in a sentence with the same speed and intonation. Even if every word was the correct word, it would be impossible to understand for a listener. Pitch accent is not some advanced skill for “masters and experts”; it’s simple correct pronunciation.
@@TokyoXtreme agree completely. Too many people just use "I just want to communicate, I don't care about getting it right" as an excuse for being lazy.
Damn, the channel is almost with 100k, congrats Matt this is amazing...
If he averages that 8 mistakes every 30 seconds, for the whole two hour duration of that video....its almost 2,000 mistakes. Ughhhhh, guess I gotta pay Dogen for that lesson plan haha : )
just read the NHK accent dictionary. It's the best resource on Pitch accent there is
Dogen's pitch accent lessons are well worth it if you want to learn. Even just memorising the rules from the first 30 videos (which cover all types of verbs, adjectives, nouns and even sentence pitch accent) will really improve your accent. Stuff like how most 4 mora, 2 kanji nouns and na-adjectives don't have a down step, or how 4+ mora i-adjectives like おもしろい or はずかしい will have the down step on the second to last mora. These are all super easy rules to learn that will just improve your spoken Japanese very easily as long as your willing to learn them
@@XgamersXdimensions I paid the 5000 yen for the online version of the dictionary, and I have probably used it for 30-45 minutes a day for six months. It has rewired my brain, and was a great investment. I use the audio for my Anki flashcards too.
Despite disagreeing with many points, this is a really well made argument.
I would like to know what points you disagree with if possible !
@@azul6638 no ❤️
@@AlexSinclair no problem ❤️
I agree that people tend not to give negative feedback on (pitch) accent mistakes. My native language is German and I know quite a lot of people who learn German and are very good at it (C level) and I still don't correct if they make similar mistakes. When you are during a conversation with a person and the person is making next to none mistakes in grammar, vocabulary but the only thing that is off is their accent, I feel it's quite rude to point it out all the time unless they specifically ask (as I have no trouble understanding them). I mean, as a native, you hear it immediately when someone's pronunciation is slightly off because your ears are trained to hear the "correct" version all the time. It's similar to how you can tell differences between dialects used by native speakers. I am originally from the south and I just need to hear two sentences from a person from the north to immediately hear that they are not from the same area as I am whereas a learner might not be able to pinpoint that difference.
Thanks for pointing this out. I have been learning for 6 - 8 months. I would like to try and improve my pitch accent now thank you so much.