isn't it great we are fortunate enough to have this guy teach enthusiasts how to get their car running at home. 15 years ago there was no option other than to tow it to a tuner.
There were plenty of options to learn freely available on the internet 15 years, blame your own stupidity. I guess everyone want stuff spoof fed to them without doing a damn bit of research.
You absolutely can wreck a brand new engine in a hurry trying to get the mapping right. In particular, when trying to get it to start. If you are cranking and cranking (obviously a wideband isn't terribly helpful until the engine is actually running), you are spraying loads of fuel into the cylinders. Fuel is a great oil solvent and it will strip the oil film from your cylinders. Next, if you are doing lots of cranking trying to get the engine to start, you are going to dilute the engine oil with fuel. Fuel is a terrible lubricant, and diluted oil can/will cause fast premature wear to every moving component in the engine. I've actually experienced this before. Sad to say it was my own damn fault. Was a long time ago before injectors were characterized so well like they are today. Before the time when WBO2 were so easy to come by, etc etc. The end result was .005" of cylinder bore wear in fewer than 1000 miles. Worn valves (not guides), worn wrist pins (not bronze bushings), worn crank journals (not worn bearings) etc etc. I had no idea WTF was going on at the time, but my block machining guy surely did. One look and he knew the engine had been "washed down" with fuel. It's a real thing. If you find yourself doing a lot of cranking, just be aware all of that fuel is going into the oil. It's not a bad idea to pull the plugs and oil the cylinders. Early/often oil changes are a great idea, too. This whole starting thing is made even worse with E85, especially when you're trying to achieve good starts at ambients under about 50ºF, which is totally possible. Change the oil a LOT, and don't be afraid to pull the plugs and cook out the wet fuel with a propane torch!
Glad you like them, there is a huge range of topics there for you guys now and we're always adding more too. Thanks for the comment and support Anthony - Taz.
@@marenghi123 nice! There is a bit of work and time involved in learning how to tune, and then the actual process, but it's a really enjoyable skill to build and use. If you end up diving into it I hope you enjoy doing it with HPA mate - Taz.
So, what if it doesn’t start immediately like yours, even with timing properly set in the ecu. Or will start but only with a massive vacuum leak, dying when vacuum leak is plugged.
It won't know what to do with it if it unless you make other relevant changes when removing the narrowband O2 sensor. You can't just plug one in and 'send it'. Many modern vehicles do come with a wideband stock now however - Taz.
Iv herd a yarn before that on a fresh engine it's a good idea to run it on the leaner side on initial start up and idle to help it get hot and aid in bedding the rings? What's your guys take on this?
Engine break in is so subjective. Ask 10 people and you get 10 answers. Here's mine: The outward spring force of rings is very little. Not enough to press outward against the cylinders to create a good seal. Instead, you are relying on gas pressure to get behind the rings and force them against the cylinders. So, if you want to "seat the rings", you need force, meaning you need gas pressure, meaning you need high cylinder pressure, meaning you need high engine load. This implies you need a plenty-safe/rich AFR to be sure you can go WOT and put some heavy load on the engine, without fear of detonation. Be advised you can still create good high cylinder pressure with fairly-retarded timing, so very conservative timing is recommended so you have confidence you won't detonate. I like to warm up a fresh engine, making sure no leaks or strange sounds. I'll take it out and do a WOT pull from the lowest non-lugging engine speed I can, up to about 2/3 of max engine speed (Do this in your 1:1 transmission gear, you're looking to load the engine). Then snap the throttle shut and slow down by engine braking. This creates a lot of vacuum in the cylinders which will help pull oil out of the crankcase and into the cylinders. Do not be concerned if you see a bit of blue smoke when you do this. Do another WOT pull up to 65-70% of max engine speed and slow down by engine braking. Do another pull to 75-80% and engine brake. Do another, your choice of 80%, 90% or 100% of max speed. Take it home and change the oil. The engine is ready to go. You should NOT see blue smoke upon engine braking after the 2nd pull. This is a good sign the rings are seated.
rings generally mesh to the bore shape and grooves. you can create a diamond shape lapping hone pattern on the bore to wear down the rings more quickly and evenly so they match the shape of the bore and very slightly lowers ring tension when worn off the edges. the more precise the tolerances, and the better the materials you use the less ring spring pressure matters. running it very lightly for the first couple hundred miles is a good idea. too much wear in the wrong place, or cast iron piston ring shards floating around on your fresh engine is poor practice for longevity. you can take a more conservative or haphazard approach like @grooves and get better or worse results if you are just looking for something to throw down a short strip and you have the budget ,sure. if you use it as a daily driver more often, be more careful. i don't see anyone doing complex multiphysics modeling of an engine to determine the best way to do a break-in, but common sense can usually fill in the blanks.
@@Jupiter__001_ As I mentioned, everyone has their own suggestion on engine break-in. I gave my opinion. However, I'll elaborate a little more. Feel free to disagree! Having disassembled many engines, I've noticed that when the engine was set up right to begin with, there will be effectively ZERO wear on the bearings and journals. Thus I do not believe these require "break in" at all. The only part of the engine that does need the break-in (IMHO) are the rings. I believe that rings will very quickly burnish and smooth the roughness that cylinder honing leaves behind - so I think the cylinder's ability to "abrade" the face of the ring is short-lived. So, I think it's important to do it ASAP. A good way to determine quality of ring seal is a leak-down test. Another is inspection of the pistons themselves. Excellent top ring seal will result in brown combustion stains on the piston crown ONLY, and zero brown staining below the ring. I've seen lots of engines with brown stains below the top compression ring (and sometimes below the 2nd ring as well), but never on an engine I've broken in my way. Regarding leakdown: Smokey always said that you don't have an engine if you see more than 5% leak, so I've never accepted anything worse than 5% on any engine I've been responsible for, if it is supposed to be a competition engine. My old Subaru with 300k miles probably has more, of course...
@@GroovesAndLands Interesting. I was just going by what manufacturers recommend, but you might be on to something. In addition, I only ever thought that the break-in period was for the rings, not any bearings. I suppose the only way to get a definitive answer would be to do a simultaneous break-in of two of the same engine, one with an "easy break-in", and one with more of your style of break-in.
You should verify your base timing before tuning. Your Haltech has a function that makes this very easy to adjust from within the ECU if it is out at all - Taz.
but your method doesn't work if the ENGINE is also freshly built and needs to be broken in to seat the rings. We can't run hard enough not to waste the cross hatching in the cylinders if we're messing around idling for way too long in the beginning trying to sort the ECU. This is a huge risk to break-in since what you do in the first 20 miles (or minutes if idling) will determine the WHOLE life of the rings in the engine. and if you mess it up you have to re-ring your engine all over again and get new everything involved to do so. So it seems like if someone was building a brand new forged internal engine, you NEVER want a standalone.. which is a shame because 99% of people throw away all their stock injectors, manifolds, turbos, and ECUs and install all the heavy-hitter components with a standalone before they ever get an initial tune in. How would you ever overcome this problem? It seems like you'd be getting rid of your chicken and egg. You simply can't afford to sit there messing with idle if you have brand new pistons. You need to be driving under hard load and vacuum to make sure those cross hatches aren't being wasted from idling around. So basically, no tune = no hard driving = can't seat rings = can't break-in your engine OR get a base map.. You're literally stuck if you end up with BOTH a standalone ECU and a brand new forged internal engine with race injectors and turbo.
![How To Tune Cold Starts | Cold Start Performance [GOLD WEBINAR LESSON]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dyGl3Oh2yL4/mqdefault.jpg)
isn't it great we are fortunate enough to have this guy teach enthusiasts how to get their car running at home. 15 years ago there was no option
other than to tow it to a tuner.
So grateful here in the US for this man. I cant afford their courses, but my first reference if anyone wants to learn!
There were plenty of options to learn freely available on the internet 15 years, blame your own stupidity. I guess everyone want stuff spoof fed to them without doing a damn bit of research.
@@MrPland1992 hey buddy.. Go be sour somewhere else.
@@dw2176 I’m not your buddy, friend.
What a valuable resource for information!!!
You guys are awesome. I took a couple of your engine building courses; going to check out your tuning resources now. Thanks for sharing this bit.
This video is very helpful. Thank you.
Very good wealth of info....i started the program....and surely i will be putting what i'm learning at a later stage ☺😁
You absolutely can wreck a brand new engine in a hurry trying to get the mapping right. In particular, when trying to get it to start. If you are cranking and cranking (obviously a wideband isn't terribly helpful until the engine is actually running), you are spraying loads of fuel into the cylinders. Fuel is a great oil solvent and it will strip the oil film from your cylinders. Next, if you are doing lots of cranking trying to get the engine to start, you are going to dilute the engine oil with fuel. Fuel is a terrible lubricant, and diluted oil can/will cause fast premature wear to every moving component in the engine.
I've actually experienced this before. Sad to say it was my own damn fault. Was a long time ago before injectors were characterized so well like they are today. Before the time when WBO2 were so easy to come by, etc etc. The end result was .005" of cylinder bore wear in fewer than 1000 miles. Worn valves (not guides), worn wrist pins (not bronze bushings), worn crank journals (not worn bearings) etc etc. I had no idea WTF was going on at the time, but my block machining guy surely did. One look and he knew the engine had been "washed down" with fuel. It's a real thing.
If you find yourself doing a lot of cranking, just be aware all of that fuel is going into the oil. It's not a bad idea to pull the plugs and oil the cylinders. Early/often oil changes are a great idea, too.
This whole starting thing is made even worse with E85, especially when you're trying to achieve good starts at ambients under about 50ºF, which is totally possible. Change the oil a LOT, and don't be afraid to pull the plugs and cook out the wet fuel with a propane torch!
awesome! then comes the warm-up table, then the after-start table, then the acceleration enrichment table...
Acc enrichment is the last thing you do...
This is so cool. Thanks so much for this. Ive learned more here then i have anywhere. I will be purchasing these courses soon. Thanks again 🙏🏻
thank you so much.. your videos are easy and simple to understand in a very very informative way.. do you have lessons in the maxxecu??
Love the info your putting out on these videos. I think I'm going to invest in your webinars
Glad you like them, there is a huge range of topics there for you guys now and we're always adding more too. Thanks for the comment and support Anthony - Taz.
I will probably sign up and learn to map and tune my own car
@@marenghi123 nice! There is a bit of work and time involved in learning how to tune, and then the actual process, but it's a really enjoyable skill to build and use.
If you end up diving into it I hope you enjoy doing it with HPA mate - Taz.
2:41 "sir have you been drinking? Im gonna need you to step out of the car please"
I would love to know how to do this with a flashpro for a S2000 06-09 :D
woahhhh what car is that?
See the tech tour here: ruclips.net/video/1JBug4nDRQw/видео.html
Does the "50's" all stand for stoichiometric AF ratio as a start out before you start leaning it a bit to get more power/richer to not have knock?
So, what if it doesn’t start immediately like yours, even with timing properly set in the ecu. Or will start but only with a massive vacuum leak, dying when vacuum leak is plugged.
What happens if you swap a factory lamda to a wide band on a stock ecu?
It won't know what to do with it if it unless you make other relevant changes when removing the narrowband O2 sensor. You can't just plug one in and 'send it'.
Many modern vehicles do come with a wideband stock now however - Taz.
Iv herd a yarn before that on a fresh engine it's a good idea to run it on the leaner side on initial start up and idle to help it get hot and aid in bedding the rings? What's your guys take on this?
Engine break in is so subjective. Ask 10 people and you get 10 answers. Here's mine:
The outward spring force of rings is very little. Not enough to press outward against the cylinders to create a good seal. Instead, you are relying on gas pressure to get behind the rings and force them against the cylinders. So, if you want to "seat the rings", you need force, meaning you need gas pressure, meaning you need high cylinder pressure, meaning you need high engine load. This implies you need a plenty-safe/rich AFR to be sure you can go WOT and put some heavy load on the engine, without fear of detonation. Be advised you can still create good high cylinder pressure with fairly-retarded timing, so very conservative timing is recommended so you have confidence you won't detonate.
I like to warm up a fresh engine, making sure no leaks or strange sounds. I'll take it out and do a WOT pull from the lowest non-lugging engine speed I can, up to about 2/3 of max engine speed (Do this in your 1:1 transmission gear, you're looking to load the engine). Then snap the throttle shut and slow down by engine braking. This creates a lot of vacuum in the cylinders which will help pull oil out of the crankcase and into the cylinders. Do not be concerned if you see a bit of blue smoke when you do this. Do another WOT pull up to 65-70% of max engine speed and slow down by engine braking. Do another pull to 75-80% and engine brake. Do another, your choice of 80%, 90% or 100% of max speed. Take it home and change the oil. The engine is ready to go. You should NOT see blue smoke upon engine braking after the 2nd pull. This is a good sign the rings are seated.
rings generally mesh to the bore shape and grooves. you can create a diamond shape lapping hone pattern on the bore to wear down the rings more quickly and evenly so they match the shape of the bore and very slightly lowers ring tension when worn off the edges. the more precise the tolerances, and the better the materials you use the less ring spring pressure matters.
running it very lightly for the first couple hundred miles is a good idea. too much wear in the wrong place, or cast iron piston ring shards floating around on your fresh engine is poor practice for longevity.
you can take a more conservative or haphazard approach like @grooves and get better or worse results if you are just looking for something to throw down a short strip and you have the budget ,sure. if you use it as a daily driver more often, be more careful. i don't see anyone doing complex multiphysics modeling of an engine to determine the best way to do a break-in, but common sense can usually fill in the blanks.
@@GroovesAndLands This doesn't seem to match what manufacturers recommend, which is an easy break-in period with varied RPM but without full load.
@@Jupiter__001_ As I mentioned, everyone has their own suggestion on engine break-in. I gave my opinion. However, I'll elaborate a little more. Feel free to disagree!
Having disassembled many engines, I've noticed that when the engine was set up right to begin with, there will be effectively ZERO wear on the bearings and journals. Thus I do not believe these require "break in" at all.
The only part of the engine that does need the break-in (IMHO) are the rings. I believe that rings will very quickly burnish and smooth the roughness that cylinder honing leaves behind - so I think the cylinder's ability to "abrade" the face of the ring is short-lived. So, I think it's important to do it ASAP.
A good way to determine quality of ring seal is a leak-down test. Another is inspection of the pistons themselves. Excellent top ring seal will result in brown combustion stains on the piston crown ONLY, and zero brown staining below the ring. I've seen lots of engines with brown stains below the top compression ring (and sometimes below the 2nd ring as well), but never on an engine I've broken in my way. Regarding leakdown: Smokey always said that you don't have an engine if you see more than 5% leak, so I've never accepted anything worse than 5% on any engine I've been responsible for, if it is supposed to be a competition engine. My old Subaru with 300k miles probably has more, of course...
@@GroovesAndLands Interesting. I was just going by what manufacturers recommend, but you might be on to something.
In addition, I only ever thought that the break-in period was for the rings, not any bearings.
I suppose the only way to get a definitive answer would be to do a simultaneous break-in of two of the same engine, one with an "easy break-in", and one with more of your style of break-in.
Hi. I have a basemap from Haltech for my rx7. Before starting up do I need to verify and lock timing or it should start right up with the basemap?
You should verify your base timing before tuning. Your Haltech has a function that makes this very easy to adjust from within the ECU if it is out at all - Taz.
but your method doesn't work if the ENGINE is also freshly built and needs to be broken in to seat the rings. We can't run hard enough not to waste the cross hatching in the cylinders if we're messing around idling for way too long in the beginning trying to sort the ECU. This is a huge risk to break-in since what you do in the first 20 miles (or minutes if idling) will determine the WHOLE life of the rings in the engine. and if you mess it up you have to re-ring your engine all over again and get new everything involved to do so. So it seems like if someone was building a brand new forged internal engine, you NEVER want a standalone.. which is a shame because 99% of people throw away all their stock injectors, manifolds, turbos, and ECUs and install all the heavy-hitter components with a standalone before they ever get an initial tune in.
How would you ever overcome this problem? It seems like you'd be getting rid of your chicken and egg. You simply can't afford to sit there messing with idle if you have brand new pistons. You need to be driving under hard load and vacuum to make sure those cross hatches aren't being wasted from idling around. So basically, no tune = no hard driving = can't seat rings = can't break-in your engine OR get a base map.. You're literally stuck if you end up with BOTH a standalone ECU and a brand new forged internal engine with race injectors and turbo.
You use an experienced tuner that has a good number of base maps and knowledge.