Besides the Imperial Japanese Navy, Royal Italian Navy and the Kriegsmarine, did any other navies had plans to upgun their warships? From what I have seen, it looks like only the Axis Powers had plans and/or swapped the guns of the warships.
What do you think of cold war modifications on WW2 ships? Were they a waste of time? For example, HMS Belfast being vastly rebuilt in many ways, only to be decommissioned a few years later.
Time and time again you have stated that you don't regard the Bismarck as a well designed battleship due to its outdated features such a the turtleback armour, the four twin turret arrangement, the single purpose secondary armament etc. But was it really such a terrible battleship when compared to its contemporaries such as the Richelieu, Littorio, king George V, North Carolina, South Dakota and Iowa classes? Or could it still be capable of taking on any of these ships in a one on one fight and maybe defeating some of them? After all she sank the Hood and it took more than 400 hits plus several torpedoes to sink her.
Why did the USN like to put relatively heavy armor on their turret faces for their ww2 cruisers(in particular New Orleans and later) more than any other country? It just seems like it would have been better to use that for the belt armor instead. Does it have to do with the layout of their cruisers?
Attempt #2: Have you read the book Six Frigates by Ian Toll and what do you think about it? Also do you think if the Germans focused more on the convoys bound for Russia that the could have potentially knocked them out of the war. Seeing they were more imediat threat vs Britain with lacking land army at the time. (I know you get a lot of requests/questions)
Most successful torpedo salvo indeed. I can imagine the report went something along the lines of: "Sir, we have launched our torpedoes and have sunk five ships!" "Marvelous! Which ships did we sink?" "We uhm, sunk our own landig force ships sir~." "Army? Well. Brilliant job keep up the good work!"
The best part was that the Japanese commanders tried to get pin it on the Americans, until the lieutenants said “Sir American Cruisers don’t carry torpedoes.”
SonOfAB_tch2ndClass Actually not quite: it was the IJA officers that mistakenly assumed the Americans did it. The IJN knew it was friendly fire, though they failed to realize which ship did it.
Drachism of the Day: The entire episode. All 9-minutes, 12-seconds of it. It's everywhere. 7:40 "Nobody had told them about the Mark XIV torpedo so they still thought that they actually had to try and evade."
@@alexgitano to put it bluntly, American torpedoes were shit. The Japanese treated the mk XIV as if it were an actual threat, though in reality it wasn't really. It was inaccurate, tended to prematurely detonate, not detonate at all, run too deep, and spin in circles. The reason why they didn't hear about them was because the US Navy went to great lengths to keep it secret; or at least it's capabilities. They went so far as to hide proper manuals on how to operate the launchers, and only supplied torpedo operators with bare-bone instructions.
Right next to the Emperor Hirohito´s surrender speech: "the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage, while the general trends of the world have all turned against her interest."
Actually the Battle of the Coral Sea, which preceded Midway, went that way also, but not so much was reported by the media, but the Allies went away from the the battle with the supply lines open to Australia, our base in New Caledonia not threatened, and the the Japanese reinforcements to their New Guinea operation cut off and many killed and it enabled the Aussies to hold Port Moresby and it gave us a springboard to rolling up the the Solomon Island chain and neutralize the Japanese fortress of Rabuol and cut it off and bypassed it so all of New Guinea could be kept without fear of Japanese counterattacks.
@@wbnc66 Fought like a very unamerican battleship, What American battleship captain closes to torpedo range? Better yet name an American battleship that still had torpdeo tubes by the time WWII broke out.
Unless they were supporting the IJA, in which case, the sake drinking game "Tojo-Go" was played in all Japanese mess decks and wardrooms... ...and even Yamamoto got happily drunk once or twice!
always like the decoration on every IJN ships, like giving white strip on the funnel and giving every ship bigger than destroyer chrysanthemum ornament on the bow so aesthetic
During the Mogami's trials, I wonder if there was a suspiciously Jeremy Clarkson- looking person shoving the ship's telegraph to the Ludicrous Speed position and shouting the Japanese equivalent of "POWER!!!"
And experiment between usage of Demolition Experts’ training and employment of Inertia-Fused High Explosive shells to determine which is more suitable for your preferred style of combat.
Always thought this class in the end turned out very interesting as their very light construction would make you think they were fragile but they proved to take a lot of punishment
@@michaelsnyder3871 this was primarily structural in nature, not a comprehensive increase in armor. They did recieve better torpedo protection as a result of stability related changes.
Ahh the Mogami class.. Quite a venerable class. The Kumano especially, took a fuckton of a beating before going down and the ship that Haley felt sorry for.
I've read that two high ranking officers on the Mogami discussed what they should tell the commanding general of the invasion force about the five friendly ships they had just sunk. The senior most officer; I wish I could remember his name, said, "I think we can let the Houston take credit for those." Other fun facts about the class. The Mogami survived being bombed at Midway because its captain had wisely dumped all of his torpedoes overboard, knowing that an air attack was imminent after seeing an American scout plane. The captain of the Mikuma decided to hold on to his torpedoes in case any American surface ships showed up and the end result was, Boom! Glurp, glurp, glurp. The Suzuya was also a victim of her own torpedoes during or shortly after surface portion of the Battle off Samar. A near miss set off some of her torpedoes, starting fires and knocking out an engine room and boiler room, so she had to be scuttled. The Kumano had her bow blown off on three separate occasions. Once at Samar by the Johnston. Again ten days later, just after a new bow had been fitted; by the submarine Rey while Kumano was acting as convoy escort. And finally, after a third bow was put in place, poor Kumano was hit by three to five torpedoes during an air attack on November 25, 1944, one of which took her bow off, but that wasn't as important as the other torpedo and bomb hits which sent the Kumano to the bottom. Her wreck was found before the end of the war in only 108 feet of water and her bow was found 150 yards away, meaning it came off at the surface, as Japanese records mentioned. Admiral Halsey once said, "if there was a Japanese ship I could feel sorry for at all, it would be the Kumano."
@@Plainview200 - It was the cruiser Chōkai. The American escort carrier White Plains may have hit the Chōkai up to six times with its single five inch gun. So, this would be the only time an aircraft carrier hit an enemy ship with its guns. A large explosion was seen aboard the cruiser after one of these hits and it was believed that hit may have set off one of Chōkai's torpedoes and this caused the fatal damage to the ship. However, a survey of Chōkai's wreck in 2019 found all of her torpedo tubes intact. An Avenger bomber dropped a 500lb bomb that penetrated into Chōkai's machinery spaces which stopped the cruiser cold. She was later scuttled with torpedoes from the Japanese destroyer Fujinami who took off survivors. None of the people from either ship survived when the Fujinami was bombed and sunk two days later. Suzuya had a fire caused by near misses from bombs. This fire set off one or more of her torpedoes which fatally damaged that ship
Some of the six-inch turrets from Micuma and Mogami wound up on Yamato and Musashi. Others wound up on the light cruiser Yahagi, Captain Hara's last command and the leader of the escort group for the Yamato on her final mission. All those turrets went down with their new ships, though Hara survived to write one of the more interesting memoirs of the war.
Thanks for posting this video . I'm actually working on a 1:350 scale model of this . The extra photos are a big help , especially the close up of the aircraft . Thanks So Much
"I award tghe Presidential Citation AND 3 Silver stars to the japanese cruiser Mogami,for extraordinary efforts in hindering the Japanese war efforts by sinking 5 Transport ships,and damaging heavy japanese cruisers on 2 occasions"
Jerome Teo The last one was actually the other way around; it was a fucking typo that led to Mogami being blamed for the incident in secondary sources.
Great to see you in the flesh talking to the chieftain. Both of you are a great inspiration to us model builders! Was hoping you’d fire the smug Irish so&so a broadside by telling him your guns are measured in inches not millimetres! 😁 You are both a credit to “RUclips”
Drach, I don't know what you're talking about, like come on, the Japanese planning to quickly refit their cruisers with 8-inch twin mounts from triple 6-inch mounts for their 100% totally light cruisers? Just a coincidence, nothing strange happened there.
And? In wartime every nation refitted their ships. Every nation has to think forward in a "what-if" scenario. Thats the duty of general staffs around the globe by the way. Looking to USS Texas for example or Warplane Red.
I've heard that, just like the Nazis had to do with the KMS Scharnhorst class, that the IJN had to redo the barbets for both the Mogami & Tone class cruisers since the triple 155mm turret barbets were too small in diameter.
It’s unlikely that they planned to do that from the start, as it is factual that they had to do extensive work to the turret rings in order to fit the new turrets, as well as not actually having the guns ready when the treaty expired.
@@k98_zock_tv47 It wasn't in wartime. The ships were modified just before the Pacific War after Japan had left the Treaty structure in 31 Dec 36 and refused to sign the 1936 London Treaty by 31 December 1937. The 15.5cm turrets went into the Yamato class. The IJN only adopted the 15.5cm because of the 1930 London Treaty and had always planned to refit them.
As a naval history enthusiast, I didn't know your channel. And you've earned a new sub! Great work. I love these IJN cruisers, and Mogami in her light cruiser configuration is really good looking :)
One of my favorite IJN cruiser classes,thanks for this video! I was introduced to the Mogami class through a Tamiya 1/700 scale kit of the Suzuya back in the eighties. Spurred me to read Edwin Hoyt's "Guadacanal" and a new appreciation of these ships and the campaigns they participated in was kindled.
My favorite element of the Mogami-Mikuma story is Mogami's extremely capable damage control officer, who put lie to the concept that Japanese DC was uniformly terrible. This especially in contrast to his counterpart over on Mikuma, who might have inadvertantly been the first person to illustrate the flip side of carrying Type 93 oxygen torpedos on ships actually designed to be shot at.
InchonDM Japanese DamCon was set up so the specialist DamCon officers were hypercompetent, but nobody else knew DamCon. So when the DamCon officers died the ship was doomed.
I'm surprised you didn't cover the Rabaul raid. Here's what I expected you to say, "Not long after the damage from Midway had been repaired, Mogami was sent to Rabaul just in time for the US air raid and she was hit by another bomb, set on fire, and was again sent back to Japan for major repairs.. But don't worry, she was again returned to service in time to join the doomed Southern Force under the probably suicidal Admiral Nishimura for the phase of the Battle of Leyte Gulf termed the Battle of Surigao Strait. When Admiral Shima's force found Mogami late in the battle, she was so battered after the attacks by US Navy destroyers, cruisers, and battleships that she was believed to be dead in the water. Not quite. Shima's flagship, the heavy cruiser Nachi, managed to plow into the slowly moving Mogami causing damage to both ships." For such an unlucky ship she was hard to sink, even after the detonation of some of her own torpedoes. There's s good account of her last action here: www.avalanchepress.com/LeyteMogami.php
@@Drachinifel Actually this was my bad. I was so eager to see a Mogami video that I didn't notice this was for the class. That explains a lot. :-| If you ever decide to branch out into covering naval officers, I'd like to nominate Admiral Nishimura -- a very interesting story if not the best officer in the IJN. Tanaka would also be good.
Like what? Like losing a gunfight with a torpedo boat? Or losing a gunfight with a strafing fighter aircraft? Actually, with those oxygen torpedoes, I can kinda see those happening. A .50 caliber round to the right spot and boom.
I am well aware of the USS Johnston and what happened. I was half-joking about just how much of a dubious honor it is for a heavy cruiser to lose a gunfight with a destroyer.
I thoroughly enjoyed your video, especially the narration, which I found very easy to follow with my 75 year old ears. I also got a chuckle out of your sarcasm .
@Genocider Sho - immediately afterwards you hear a big, booming voice from the sky tell you “DON’T FIRE AT YOUR ALLIES “ and your ship’s paint instantly turns pink!
Time to make an extremely profuse apology... bring out the Tanto and make sure the captain, officers and especially the men manning the torpedo tubes all cut nice and deep.
This is my favourite class of heavy cruiser, not only were her main guns placed on Yamato, and Musashi, two were also placed on the Oyodo, the only light cruiser of her class, which resembled the Agano class light cruisers. It is also great that the team of researchers who where funded by the late Paul G. Allen, Microsoft's co-founder, had discovered Mogami recently, as well as other historic naval vessels. This is a nice short background of the Mogami class. Thanks.
I liked these ships with their 15 main guns and 12 torpedo tubes (all with the Long Lance) good armour and very high top speed. These ships were the EXACT opposite of the German heavy cruisers in that the latter were lousy bang's-for-the-buck. Whereas this class offered a LOT of power for the money spent (albeit with some problems). Had they been retrofitted with the 3.9in guns for their 5 inchers - they would have been awesome in almost every offensive respect. Thanks very much for this video.
McRocket THIS. I see way too many people focus only on them breaking treaty limits and arguing they were inefficient designs for this reason, when the reason they broke treaty limits was due to their capability and they were actually reasonably capable for their displacement.
@@bkjeong4302 Agreed. Actually, I would say they were extremely capable for their displacement. Yes, the Brooklyn's were roughly 2,000 tons lighter. But they were much slower and had zero torpedoes. If the Mogami's had put a little bit for deck armor and replaced the 5 inch guns with the later (excellent) 3.9 inch guns? Along with their fantastic 'Long Lance' torpedoes? I would say (outside of radar technology) they were definitely the best light cruisers (bang for buck) of the war.
Unfortunately, no one told them they were Mark 14 torpedoes, so they thought they still had to evade... XD I lost track of the wonderful Drachisms in this one
They were heavily armed and scary warships. During 1943 and 1944 some of their heavy cruisers prowled the Pacific mandated and under attack islands. It must have been quite a sight, seeings ships of that size and power in the narrow channels and inlets around the Solomons, New Guinea, and the Philippines.
Captain Evans is a Naval Legend, alongside Jones, Decatur, Farragut, and Dewey. Can you imagine the cheer that went up on Johnston when her torpedo sheared off Kumano’s bow....must have been like Yankee Stadium after a DiMaggio Walk off Grand Slam!
You know. With the Japanese navy placing more and more of the ubiquitous 25mm AA guns on there ships. It seems that there was more and more punishment duty going on^^
I recall you mentioning the danger of the liquid oxygen powered torpedoes that the IJN favored so I can imagine the damage and chaos aboard Suzuya after her torpedo magazine detonated. It's a wonder to me that all of that LOX and torpedo warheads detonating didn't just tear her in two and sink her immediately. Another excellent presentation sir.
Unlike the gun magazines, the torpedo tubes and reloads are not deep in the ship where an explosion will tear it in two. The torpedoes are on the main deck where there is lots of room for explosion forces to go "harmlessly".
I would love to see an in depth treatment of the IJN Mikuma's demise to include the suicide attack of USAF Captain Flemming who dove his damaged aircraft into the Mikuma's bridge. He missed, but hit the aft turret near the plane park and toxic gas was ingested into the engineering spaces, killing all in that area. Apparently, the coup de grace for the Mikuma was an explosion in part of her torpedo compliment, though pictures show crew were jettisoning some. In photos, it looks like the hull on the starboard side fore the bridge area has buckled with large section of hull protruding up, maybe as a result of the collision with the IJN Mogami. What a formidable looking, though "cursed" class of ships. Love your work.......... Best, N
Uh, correction needed Sir. Captain Fleming, was a Marine Corps Naval Aviator. And for his sacrifice, Earned the Medal of Honor. ruclips.net/video/gSXfT3y5BNY/видео.html
"Medals" - those are the decorations awarded to that those in the military and they wear on their uniforms. "Metals", are the elements from which most military organizations make weapons.
It would be interesting to look at all the engagements fought by the Mogami class cruisers and see if they might have been better off keeping their 6" main battery.
One interesting thing about the refit of the Mogamis to 8 in guns is that the barrels are longer, so that the guns of the second turret immediately in back of the first turret could not fit in the space, so that when pointed forward the guns had to be elevated so that they overhung the back of the first turret. It's also not clear how much benefit the Japanese navy got from the retrofits, because the original 155mm (6in) guns had a much higher rate of fire and was spoken of highly by Japanese sources.
FIRE TORPEDOES. Sir those are our ships. FIRE TORPEDOES NOW. Sir, the Allied forces have named you the MVP of this fight and want to mail you the Medal of Honor. Signed, GG NOOB.
A follow up crossover episode talking about the day after Midway would make a great video. Walk us through the kind of day the Mogami and Mikuma had, and compare their Damage Control Parties. Follow the Jolly engine room crew as they seek to abandon Hiryu. Follow the Tanizake among the luckiest boats in the war that day as every ship plane and seabird in the US Navy spends all day trying to bomb them.
There is a famous story in the book „als mariner im krieg“ from the german poet joachim ringelnatz, where in ww1 in the baltic sea the german navy lay mines on sledges from land(!) to block or destroy ships of the Russian navy. As this is a rather strange and unusual story maybe you could investigate and create one of your great storytelling videos...
Dracihfel, I seem to remember where someone adjusted the various ships' clocks, and torpedo run times and figured out that an IJN sub actually hit ships with her full salvo! Not all hit the USN Carrier (if I remember correctly that was her target), but also a South Dakota class battleship in a different Task Group!
So, Mogami was "that player" from WoWs... I wonder what the fate of her captain was after torpedoing 5(!!!) of their own ships. Was he allowed to commit sepuku?
That Mogami's all-pointing-forward layout of the front three turrets actually took up more length than the Takao's layout (which the Americans copied with the Brooklyn). Another unfortunate consequence was that when the turrets were swapped out for the 8-inch variant, B-turret's guns did not have enough space to bring the guns down to horizontal. If the plan was always to swap out the turrets then this was a strange design.
IJN Mogamy- Warship which managed to torpedo it's own transport fleet at Java, got literally kamikazied by US dive bomber at Midway and lost a gunnery duel with a destroyer at Samar. Probably the most hillarious track record of any heavy cruiser in the world. Edit: Mistook the warships in regards to last thing. Still hilarious track record.
@@DrFatalChunk to be fair that name was the mod teams decision. It may or may not reflect on drachs personal opinion, ill ask him next i get the chance XD
Pinned post for Q&A :)
Besides the Imperial Japanese Navy, Royal Italian Navy and the Kriegsmarine, did any other navies had plans to upgun their warships? From what I have seen, it looks like only the Axis Powers had plans and/or swapped the guns of the warships.
What do you think of cold war modifications on WW2 ships? Were they a waste of time? For example, HMS Belfast being vastly rebuilt in many ways, only to be decommissioned a few years later.
Time and time again you have stated that you don't regard the Bismarck as a well designed battleship due to its outdated features such a the turtleback armour, the four twin turret arrangement, the single purpose secondary armament etc.
But was it really such a terrible battleship when compared to its contemporaries such as the Richelieu, Littorio, king George V, North Carolina, South Dakota and Iowa classes? Or could it still be capable of taking on any of these ships in a one on one fight and maybe defeating some of them? After all she sank the Hood and it took more than 400 hits plus several torpedoes to sink her.
Why did the USN like to put relatively heavy armor on their turret faces for their ww2 cruisers(in particular New Orleans and later) more than any other country? It just seems like it would have been better to use that for the belt armor instead. Does it have to do with the layout of their cruisers?
Attempt #2: Have you read the book Six Frigates by Ian Toll and what do you think about it? Also do you think if the Germans focused more on the convoys bound for Russia that the could have potentially knocked them out of the war. Seeing they were more imediat threat vs Britain with lacking land army at the time. (I know you get a lot of requests/questions)
Most successful torpedo salvo indeed. I can imagine the report went something along the lines of: "Sir, we have launched our torpedoes and have sunk five ships!" "Marvelous! Which ships did we sink?"
"We uhm, sunk our own landig force ships sir~."
"Army? Well. Brilliant job keep up the good work!"
“That’ll serve them bastards right for using us as mere transports!”
The Marvelous Misadventures of the Mogami Class Cruisers.
Coming soon to TBS.
I nearly soiled myself laughing about the single most effective torpedo salvo in history.
@@tehllama42 the most epic teamkill/fail in naval history.
The best part was that the Japanese commanders tried to get pin it on the Americans, until the lieutenants said “Sir American Cruisers don’t carry torpedoes.”
SonOfAB_tch2ndClass
Actually not quite: it was the IJA officers that mistakenly assumed the Americans did it. The IJN knew it was friendly fire, though they failed to realize which ship did it.
You know, the two ships crashing into each other trying to evade the Mark 14 probably did more damage than all the Mark 14’s in 1942.
and both ships is still intact and fast
No doubt,brother.
Drachism of the Day:
The entire episode. All 9-minutes, 12-seconds of it. It's everywhere.
7:40 "Nobody had told them about the Mark XIV torpedo so they still thought that they actually had to try and evade."
@@alexgitano to put it bluntly, American torpedoes were shit.
The Japanese treated the mk XIV as if it were an actual threat, though in reality it wasn't really. It was inaccurate, tended to prematurely detonate, not detonate at all, run too deep, and spin in circles.
The reason why they didn't hear about them was because the US Navy went to great lengths to keep it secret; or at least it's capabilities. They went so far as to hide proper manuals on how to operate the launchers, and only supplied torpedo operators with bare-bone instructions.
"the Battle of Midway went somewhat less than brilliantly for the IJN"
Worthy of the Understatement Hall of Fame.
Taterkaze Drachism of the Day...
Almost like saying the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot resulted in a few planes being shot down.
"There was a 'Glitch'." 😔
Right next to the Emperor Hirohito´s surrender speech: "the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage, while the general trends of the world have all turned against her interest."
Actually the Battle of the Coral Sea, which preceded Midway, went that way also, but not so much was reported by the media, but the Allies went away from the the battle with the supply lines open to Australia, our base in New Caledonia not threatened, and the the Japanese reinforcements to their New Guinea operation cut off and many killed and it enabled the Aussies to hold Port Moresby and it gave us a springboard to rolling up the the Solomon Island chain and neutralize the Japanese fortress of Rabuol and cut it off and bypassed it so all of New Guinea could be kept without fear of Japanese counterattacks.
"lost a gunnery duel with the USS Johnston"... to be fair, most battleships would have lost that duel as well.
Well, only people with sheer guts are allowed inside Cap Evans's command.
"I intend to put this ship in harm's way"
That's because the USS Johnston was under the impression it was a cleverly disguised Battleship...and proceeded to fight like one...
@@wbnc66 Fought like a very unamerican battleship, What American battleship captain closes to torpedo range? Better yet name an American battleship that still had torpdeo tubes by the time WWII broke out.
There is something to be said for the level of destruction a well built and well crewed destroyer can inflict...
Ah Mogami, that ship that all the rest of the IJN *really* hoped wouldn't be assigned to their task force.
Unless they were supporting the IJA, in which case, the sake drinking game "Tojo-Go" was played in all Japanese mess decks and wardrooms...
...and even Yamamoto got happily drunk once or twice!
This side of becoming an honored ancestor lol.
sprayed coffee when i heard that lol
Might be a coincidence, but this sounds like a quote from the Heechee series of SF novels by Friedrik Pohl. Am I right Drach?
@@Dr_V Frederich Pohl. I love you, Vladimir.
always like the decoration on every IJN ships, like giving white strip on the funnel and giving every ship bigger than destroyer chrysanthemum ornament on the bow so aesthetic
And add the "dragon-horn" bow as well, which ist not only for placing mooring-lines in port
i really like the destroyers having their name in big bold letters too
@@kisaragi_san1378 zekamashi 🙈
Yes been waiting for this awesome British voice to cover my favorite class of heavily disguised heavy cruisers
During the Mogami's trials, I wonder if there was a suspiciously Jeremy Clarkson- looking person shoving the ship's telegraph to the Ludicrous Speed position and shouting the Japanese equivalent of "POWER!!!"
Many Japanese naval cruisers are beautiful. Heavy cruisers were given the name of the mountain, and light cruisers were given the name of the river.
Well, I got a couple o' 8 incher turrets out back the garage iffin ya need 'em!
And I have some spare copper tubing to double the capacity of the onboard sake still!
"Kumano lost a gunfight against USS Johnston..." oh that nasty boat again!
Don't forget, Kumano lost her bow to Johnston's torpedoes.
@@rimmipeepsicles1870 Well he is Captain Ernest "This is a Fighting Ship" Evans
Knowing what Evans achieved with a destroyer what would have happened if he had been given command of an Iowa class battleship.
@@toddwebb7521 Well goodbye Center Force then.
@@toddwebb7521 a battleship wouldn't be fast enough, he'd need a light cruiser! Ooh lord, Captain Evans in a cruiser with 8in guns!
Japanese did it wrong.
You keep the 6" guns and train your captains for HE spam.
And experiment between usage of Demolition Experts’ training and employment of Inertia-Fused High Explosive shells to determine which is more suitable for your preferred style of combat.
@@willrogers3793 why just one? just take both
@@willrogers3793 205mm for me
Why settle for 6" when 7.5" is better?
@@poisonousteapot2394 more dakka ) but I also prefer 203mm
Always thought this class in the end turned out very interesting as their very light construction would make you think they were fragile but they proved to take a lot of punishment
They were heavily rebuilt twice gaining 2900 tons over the design displacement of 8,500 tons.
@@michaelsnyder3871 this was primarily structural in nature, not a comprehensive increase in armor. They did recieve better torpedo protection as a result of stability related changes.
Ahh the Mogami class.. Quite a venerable class.
The Kumano especially, took a fuckton of a beating before going down and the ship that Haley felt sorry for.
Even the Mogami itself.... She survived the battle of Surigao and she was sunk by her own team
I've read that two high ranking officers on the Mogami discussed what they should tell the commanding general of the invasion force about the five friendly ships they had just sunk. The senior most officer; I wish I could remember his name, said, "I think we can let the Houston take credit for those."
Other fun facts about the class. The Mogami survived being bombed at Midway because its captain had wisely dumped all of his torpedoes overboard, knowing that an air attack was imminent after seeing an American scout plane. The captain of the Mikuma decided to hold on to his torpedoes in case any American surface ships showed up and the end result was, Boom! Glurp, glurp, glurp.
The Suzuya was also a victim of her own torpedoes during or shortly after surface portion of the Battle off Samar. A near miss set off some of her torpedoes, starting fires and knocking out an engine room and boiler room, so she had to be scuttled.
The Kumano had her bow blown off on three separate occasions. Once at Samar by the Johnston. Again ten days later, just after a new bow had been fitted; by the submarine Rey while Kumano was acting as convoy escort. And finally, after a third bow was put in place, poor Kumano was hit by three to five torpedoes during an air attack on November 25, 1944, one of which took her bow off, but that wasn't as important as the other torpedo and bomb hits which sent the Kumano to the bottom. Her wreck was found before the end of the war in only 108 feet of water and her bow was found 150 yards away, meaning it came off at the surface, as Japanese records mentioned. Admiral Halsey once said, "if there was a Japanese ship I could feel sorry for at all, it would be the Kumano."
So she took 2 curtain calls before she bowed out of the war...
I believe Suzuka was sunk by gunfire from an aircraft carrier. A unique event.
@@Plainview200 - It was the cruiser Chōkai. The American escort carrier White Plains may have hit the Chōkai up to six times with its single five inch gun. So, this would be the only time an aircraft carrier hit an enemy ship with its guns. A large explosion was seen aboard the cruiser after one of these hits and it was believed that hit may have set off one of Chōkai's torpedoes and this caused the fatal damage to the ship.
However, a survey of Chōkai's wreck in 2019 found all of her torpedo tubes intact. An Avenger bomber dropped a 500lb bomb that penetrated into Chōkai's machinery spaces which stopped the cruiser cold. She was later scuttled with torpedoes from the Japanese destroyer Fujinami who took off survivors. None of the people from either ship survived when the Fujinami was bombed and sunk two days later.
Suzuya had a fire caused by near misses from bombs. This fire set off one or more of her torpedoes which fatally damaged that ship
Some of the six-inch turrets from Micuma and Mogami wound up on Yamato and Musashi. Others wound up on the light cruiser Yahagi, Captain Hara's last command and the leader of the escort group for the Yamato on her final mission. All those turrets went down with their new ships, though Hara survived to write one of the more interesting memoirs of the war.
Thanks for posting this video .
I'm actually working on a 1:350 scale model of this .
The extra photos are a big help , especially the close up of the aircraft .
Thanks So Much
Always loved the attempt at a light cruiser that really was a heavy but over weight and over fast. A very interesting ship to fit an odd strategy.
If there was ever a ship that deserved a presidential citation and a silver star it was Mogami: what a ship killing record.
Such a true if hilarious statement 😂
"I award tghe Presidential Citation AND 3 Silver stars to the japanese cruiser Mogami,for extraordinary efforts in hindering the Japanese war efforts by sinking 5 Transport ships,and damaging heavy japanese cruisers on 2 occasions"
@@NashmanNash Hai! (Affirmative response in Japanese.)
I love your videos! - former ROKN active duty USN
How many U.S. Battlestars did the Mogami receive?
Just one, the Atlantia.
Not sure about battlestars, but he was pink for very long time
OslikusPrime WoWs player confirmed lol
5 for sinking transports
1 for colliding with Mikuma
1 for colliding with Nachi
Jerome Teo
The last one was actually the other way around; it was a fucking typo that led to Mogami being blamed for the incident in secondary sources.
The Mogami is such a good looking ship and is one of my favorites for sure
Nice interview with the Chieftain the other day. Hope it brings in lots of subscriptions and viewers.
Great to see you in the flesh talking to the chieftain.
Both of you are a great inspiration to us model builders!
Was hoping you’d fire the smug Irish so&so a broadside by telling him your guns are measured in inches not millimetres! 😁
You are both a credit to “RUclips”
Drach, I don't know what you're talking about, like come on, the Japanese planning to quickly refit their cruisers with 8-inch twin mounts from triple 6-inch mounts for their 100% totally light cruisers? Just a coincidence, nothing strange happened there.
And?
In wartime every nation refitted their ships.
Every nation has to think forward in a "what-if" scenario.
Thats the duty of general staffs around the globe by the way.
Looking to USS Texas for example or Warplane Red.
K98_Zock_TV I think you are missing the sarcasm in the OP.
I've heard that, just like the Nazis had to do with the KMS Scharnhorst class, that the IJN had to redo the barbets for both the Mogami & Tone class cruisers since the triple 155mm turret barbets were too small in diameter.
It’s unlikely that they planned to do that from the start, as it is factual that they had to do extensive work to the turret rings in order to fit the new turrets, as well as not actually having the guns ready when the treaty expired.
@@k98_zock_tv47 It wasn't in wartime. The ships were modified just before the Pacific War after Japan had left the Treaty structure in 31 Dec 36 and refused to sign the 1936 London Treaty by 31 December 1937. The 15.5cm turrets went into the Yamato class. The IJN only adopted the 15.5cm because of the 1930 London Treaty and had always planned to refit them.
As a naval history enthusiast, I didn't know your channel. And you've earned a new sub! Great work. I love these IJN cruisers, and Mogami in her light cruiser configuration is really good looking :)
One of my favorite IJN cruiser classes,thanks for this video! I was introduced to the Mogami class through a Tamiya 1/700 scale kit of the Suzuya back in the eighties. Spurred me to read Edwin Hoyt's "Guadacanal" and a new appreciation of these ships and the campaigns they participated in was kindled.
Drachism of the day.
"The Battle of Midway went somewhat less then Brilliantly for the Imperial Japanese Navy..."
Hope we can get some more for the IJN heavy cruiser classes, they've always interested me a great deal.
Holy crap that’s a lot of horsepower
The Mogami is arguably the closest thing the IJN ever had to a William D. Porter...
My favorite element of the Mogami-Mikuma story is Mogami's extremely capable damage control officer, who put lie to the concept that Japanese DC was uniformly terrible. This especially in contrast to his counterpart over on Mikuma, who might have inadvertantly been the first person to illustrate the flip side of carrying Type 93 oxygen torpedos on ships actually designed to be shot at.
InchonDM
Japanese DamCon was set up so the specialist DamCon officers were hypercompetent, but nobody else knew DamCon. So when the DamCon officers died the ship was doomed.
My grandpa was crew member.
Thank you for sharing.
Good to see you on the chieftain interview, keep up the great work...
I'm surprised you didn't cover the Rabaul raid. Here's what I expected you to say, "Not long after the damage from Midway had been repaired, Mogami was sent to Rabaul just in time for the US air raid and she was hit by another bomb, set on fire, and was again sent back to Japan for major repairs.. But don't worry, she was again returned to service in time to join the doomed Southern Force under the probably suicidal Admiral Nishimura for the phase of the Battle of Leyte Gulf termed the Battle of Surigao Strait. When Admiral Shima's force found Mogami late in the battle, she was so battered after the attacks by US Navy destroyers, cruisers, and battleships that she was believed to be dead in the water. Not quite. Shima's flagship, the heavy cruiser Nachi, managed to plow into the slowly moving Mogami causing damage to both ships."
For such an unlucky ship she was hard to sink, even after the detonation of some of her own torpedoes. There's s good account of her last action here: www.avalanchepress.com/LeyteMogami.php
Unfortunately I was already running over time with the desogn history. Happy to revisit some of the individual ships careers in the future thought :)
@@Drachinifel Actually this was my bad. I was so eager to see a Mogami video that I didn't notice this was for the class. That explains a lot. :-|
If you ever decide to branch out into covering naval officers, I'd like to nominate Admiral Nishimura -- a very interesting story if not the best officer in the IJN. Tanaka would also be good.
Ironically accidental crashes into the Mikuma during the Battle of Midway..they were trying to avoid U.S.S Tambor in the area..
"Lost a gunnery duel with the USS Johnston." There are worse epithets for a heavy cruiser I suppose. sm
Like what? Like losing a gunfight with a torpedo boat? Or losing a gunfight with a strafing fighter aircraft? Actually, with those oxygen torpedoes, I can kinda see those happening. A .50 caliber round to the right spot and boom.
I think you missed that it was the *USS Johnston*. Or don't you know about it and what it did at the Battle of Samar? sm
I am well aware of the USS Johnston and what happened. I was half-joking about just how much of a dubious honor it is for a heavy cruiser to lose a gunfight with a destroyer.
Like the most successful torpedo strike of WW2 sinking only friendly ships.
@@RadioactiveSherbet It was really one of Johnston's torpedoes which did most of the wrecking, comment still funny though.
I thoroughly enjoyed your video, especially the narration, which I found very easy to follow with my 75 year old ears. I also got a chuckle out of your sarcasm .
Happen to be laying around possibly in situ.I enjoyed this presentation. Your smashing.
Imagine the shame of realizing you just sank five of your own ships in one go.
@Genocider Sho - immediately afterwards you hear a big, booming voice from the sky tell you “DON’T FIRE AT YOUR ALLIES “ and your ship’s paint instantly turns pink!
There's a Kraken, and then, there's the Friendly Fire Kraken that lands you in Co-Op for a month....
Double coat of pink paint.
I expect a massive ban for teamkilling
Time to make an extremely profuse apology... bring out the Tanto and make sure the captain, officers and especially the men manning the torpedo tubes all cut nice and deep.
When the drachism is so funny that Drach' laughs at his own drachism.
Well played sir. Well played.
This is my favourite class of heavy cruiser, not only were her main guns placed on Yamato, and Musashi, two were also placed on the Oyodo, the only light cruiser of her class, which resembled the Agano class light cruisers.
It is also great that the team of researchers who where funded by the late Paul G. Allen, Microsoft's co-founder, had discovered Mogami recently, as well as other historic naval vessels.
This is a nice short background of the Mogami class.
Thanks.
I liked these ships with their 15 main guns and 12 torpedo tubes (all with the Long Lance) good armour and very high top speed.
These ships were the EXACT opposite of the German heavy cruisers in that the latter were lousy bang's-for-the-buck. Whereas this class offered a LOT of power for the money spent (albeit with some problems).
Had they been retrofitted with the 3.9in guns for their 5 inchers - they would have been awesome in almost every offensive respect.
Thanks very much for this video.
McRocket
THIS. I see way too many people focus only on them breaking treaty limits and arguing they were inefficient designs for this reason, when the reason they broke treaty limits was due to their capability and they were actually reasonably capable for their displacement.
@@bkjeong4302 Agreed. Actually, I would say they were extremely capable for their displacement. Yes, the Brooklyn's were roughly 2,000 tons lighter. But they were much slower and had zero torpedoes.
If the Mogami's had put a little bit for deck armor and replaced the 5 inch guns with the later (excellent) 3.9 inch guns? Along with their fantastic 'Long Lance' torpedoes? I would say (outside of radar technology) they were definitely the best light cruisers (bang for buck) of the war.
wow and i just subbed a week back and this present came in..... well done and thank you....
You should stay subbed my friend. You wouldn't regret it a single 😁😁
Unfortunately, no one told them they were Mark 14 torpedoes, so they thought they still had to evade... XD I lost track of the wonderful Drachisms in this one
That Mogami captain sank 5 of HIS OWN SHIPS? Being Jäp, you'd think he's have committed Seppuku.
I have long been obsessed with this ship. I think it is beautiful.
A little disappointed that Drach didn’t go into more detail about Kumano’s fate as it took more that “some carrier aircraft” before she went down.
... drachnifel do you have a cure for laughter? I can’t stop cackling at your video right now
Love all your videos. Informative and witty at the same time. Never change, sir. You got this.
Naval history is just loaded with comedic value
Beautiful cruiser probably the best looking IJN cruiser made
Ahh, the tomboy aircraft cruiser.
Bokukko 😌
They were heavily armed and scary warships.
During 1943 and 1944 some of their heavy cruisers prowled the Pacific mandated and under attack islands.
It must have been quite a sight, seeings ships of that size and power in the narrow channels and inlets around the Solomons, New Guinea, and the Philippines.
Getting some props from Mr. Moran?! That was a pleasant surprise!
oh my god, 5 friendly kills in 1 torpedo spread... hats off...
Suggestion! HMAS Waterhen (the chook) and the Scrap Iron Flotilla.
Yes. Good suggestion.
Captain Evans is a Naval Legend, alongside Jones, Decatur, Farragut, and Dewey. Can you imagine the cheer that went up on Johnston when her torpedo sheared off Kumano’s bow....must have been like Yankee Stadium after a DiMaggio Walk off Grand Slam!
I've been waiting for this!
You know. With the Japanese navy placing more and more of the ubiquitous 25mm AA guns on there ships. It seems that there was more and more punishment duty going on^^
animal16365
They didn’t have any other light AA guns.
@@bkjeong4302 ; They did have some 40mm designs based on the Pom-Pom but thought the 25mm had better ballistics as the shells were faster.
@@FirstDagger not sure if that was a good assessment in hindsight since a disturbingly large number of American aircraft remained flying above them
Morning Drach!
It's good to know that Mogami is at the bottom of the Pacific Ocean and likely to remain there.
Truly Fascinating!!!
I recall you mentioning the danger of the liquid oxygen powered torpedoes that the IJN favored so I can imagine the damage and chaos aboard Suzuya after her torpedo magazine detonated. It's a wonder to me that all of that LOX and torpedo warheads detonating didn't just tear her in two and sink her immediately.
Another excellent presentation sir.
Unlike the gun magazines, the torpedo tubes and reloads are not deep in the ship where an explosion will tear it in two. The torpedoes are on the main deck where there is lots of room for explosion forces to go "harmlessly".
Des Moines class Heavy cruiser feature would be soooo nice
ruclips.net/video/ONXYhli8jTA/видео.html
Cool ship and story.
I would love to see an in depth treatment of the IJN Mikuma's demise to include the suicide attack of USAF Captain Flemming who dove his damaged aircraft into the Mikuma's bridge.
He missed, but hit the aft turret near the plane park and toxic gas was ingested into the engineering spaces, killing all in that area.
Apparently, the coup de grace for the Mikuma was an explosion in part of her torpedo compliment, though pictures show crew were jettisoning some.
In photos, it looks like the hull on the starboard side fore the bridge area has buckled with large section of hull protruding up, maybe as a result of the collision with the IJN Mogami.
What a formidable looking, though "cursed" class of ships.
Love your work..........
Best, N
Uh, correction needed Sir. Captain Fleming, was a Marine Corps Naval Aviator. And for his sacrifice, Earned the Medal of Honor. ruclips.net/video/gSXfT3y5BNY/видео.html
That was a USMC pilot. Capt. Fleming was the flight officer of Marine Scout Bombing Squadron 241. The USAF didn't even exist as a force yet.
Seens like Mogami deserves a few metals from the Allies judging by its killing record....
"Medals" - those are the decorations awarded to that those in the military and they wear on their uniforms. "Metals", are the elements from which most military organizations make weapons.
love your vids really well made
Another great video, love that intro !
Thank you for your great work, I love it, o "dishonorable gaijin"!
A couple more Mogami's and the US Navy could have stayed at home.
Suggestion:
KMS Emden (1925) ...actually was laid down in Weimarer Republik and has an interesting story....I think
Beautiful and amazing ship
I would love to hear about the various ships of the Takao-class heavy cruisers.
It would be interesting to look at all the engagements fought by the Mogami class cruisers and see if they might have been better off keeping their 6" main battery.
The mogami class is my favourite class of ships and the suzuya is my favourite ship overall. I even thought about getting a model for christmas
“Dishonorable Gaijin”
....unless they make Japanese bias a reality in WT.
Don't give them ideas
@@ayylmao9697 Chill bruh. Just a joke
@@rimmipeepsicles1870 don't worry about it
They have added it in the game as a hevy cruiser
One interesting thing about the refit of the Mogamis to 8 in guns is that the barrels are longer, so that the guns of the second turret immediately in back of the first turret could not fit in the space, so that when pointed forward the guns had to be elevated so that they overhung the back of the first turret. It's also not clear how much benefit the Japanese navy got from the retrofits, because the original 155mm (6in) guns had a much higher rate of fire and was spoken of highly by Japanese sources.
Beautiful ship !
FIRE TORPEDOES.
Sir those are our ships.
FIRE TORPEDOES NOW.
Sir, the Allied forces have named you the MVP of this fight and want to mail you the Medal of Honor.
Signed, GG NOOB.
Random Japanese Warship: "We're out of torpedoes."
Mogami: "We'll send you some."
Excellent!
A follow up crossover episode talking about the day after Midway would make a great video. Walk us through the kind of day the Mogami and Mikuma had, and compare their Damage Control Parties. Follow the Jolly engine room crew as they seek to abandon Hiryu. Follow the Tanizake among the luckiest boats in the war that day as every ship plane and seabird in the US Navy spends all day trying to bomb them.
There is a famous story in the book „als mariner im krieg“ from the german poet joachim ringelnatz, where in ww1 in the baltic sea the german navy lay mines on sledges from land(!) to block or destroy ships of the Russian navy. As this is a rather strange and unusual story maybe you could investigate and create one of your great storytelling videos...
Best looking ships of the war!
Dracihfel, I seem to remember where someone adjusted the various ships' clocks, and torpedo run times and figured out that an IJN sub actually hit ships with her full salvo! Not all hit the USN Carrier (if I remember correctly that was her target), but also a South Dakota class battleship in a different Task Group!
Might have been Wasp, North Carolina and a destroyer.
So, Mogami was "that player" from WoWs...
I wonder what the fate of her captain was after torpedoing 5(!!!) of their own ships.
Was he allowed to commit sepuku?
He was given the job of improving the US Mk XIV torpedo by U.S. Bureau of Ordinance.. For clearly he knew how to get the most out of a torpedo...
The IJN actually refused to admit they were responsible, and claimed the transports (which belonged to the Army) had been sunk by Dutch torpedo boats.
@@johnbuchman4854 🤣🤣🤣😂😆
@@jrggrop It was the IJN Kamuchakka (カムチャッカ
) that reported that it saw torpedo boats, but the IJA wouldn't listen...!
@@tcpratt1660 torpedo boats are everywhere
Mogami = best team killer in the game!
That Mogami's all-pointing-forward layout of the front three turrets actually took up more length than the Takao's layout (which the Americans copied with the Brooklyn). Another unfortunate consequence was that when the turrets were swapped out for the 8-inch variant, B-turret's guns did not have enough space to bring the guns down to horizontal. If the plan was always to swap out the turrets then this was a strange design.
IJN Mogamy- Warship which managed to torpedo it's own transport fleet at Java, got literally kamikazied by US dive bomber at Midway and lost a gunnery duel with a destroyer at Samar. Probably the most hillarious track record of any heavy cruiser in the world.
Edit: Mistook the warships in regards to last thing. Still hilarious track record.
You gotta hand it to the Japanese. They knew how to build beautiful warships.
Cruisers.
Their destroyers and BB's were pretty humble looking, IMO.
But their CA's were striking. The Takao class in particular.
@@nattybumpo7156 well if you consider the yamato class to be humble looking then sure.
@@nattybumpo7156 and yes the takao class was indeed very sexy
I know it wasn't actually built but the Izumo was possibly the ugliest battleships ever
@@davidandmartinealbon3155 it looks like a nelson
Brilliant!!
"It was thought the enemy would no doubt run away from the Japanese navy..." Oh hi Commander Evans, what are you doing with that Fletcher-class?
I wonder how old Drach feels about Kantai Collection and Azur Lane Tbh
And arpeggio of blue steel
It's discussed on his discord in a category called "cancer corner".
I bet it's his guilty pleasure
sexy fleet girls waifu nagato
@@DrFatalChunk to be fair that name was the mod teams decision. It may or may not reflect on drachs personal opinion, ill ask him next i get the chance XD
"Just happened to he lying around " 🤣