Gaijin’s WORST BR Changes Yet | War Thunder
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- Опубликовано: 26 апр 2024
- I'm going to enjoy 8.3-9.0 and you will not stop me.
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they are bad, but they always are, we should ignore it and let it keep happening. GOOD POINT!
If you genuinely believe you can do something to make gaijin decompress, you don’t know gaijin my man
Are they bad for balance? Yeah, I'd say so. The correct move is to move everything up. However... I am enjoying my sabre and MiG gameplay a lot now )))
But the que times!!!
@@SeekerHeadsince the change I haven’t not instant queued
@@texasthib2029 im with the saber a5
Que is 48 seconds
correction: move EVERY RUSSIAN, GERMAN, and EUROPEAN rank III-IV UP while every rank IV-V in the US goes DOWN because the US is LITERALLY UNPLAYABLE
@@aurorathearcticwolf4243 LMAO
Ju288s having to fight 7.7 jets would be so based
Real
When is Ju288 getting uptiered to 12.7?
But Ju288’s introduction RUINED a great set of BRs and still keep them ruined.
"Fight" is not a verb that could ever be associated with Ju-288 pilots, but to your point I would love to see them try to outrun my F-80 or F2H.
@@lovethegame0204I feel like the 288 spam is a little less prominent now. Still annoying
"we're left in a situation where nobody gets to have any fun" When the simple, obvious solution is to extend the top end BR to 16.0 or 17.0 to reduce compression across the entire board. It really confuses me as to why Gaijin would rather give BRs turns being meta and force us to deal with the uptier/downtier gamble.
Thank Christ someone thinks this, idk bout 16-17 I was like 13-14 is needed so like 1970s aircrafts don’t just get to clobber an aircraft made in 1952. It’s primarily the Su-25 and A-10 spam that has made it the worst
You said the snails bedroom word "gamble"
Either low like 13.7-14.0 and instead of +-1 BR brackets, do +-0.7.
Or 16-17 BR.
Compression is a huge issue and Gaijin REFUSE to fix it. They promised to decompress cold war and did so somewhat a while ago before fucking up every change they did not even a couple months later! Ridiculous!
Totally. Every change is to screw players or vehicles that do well. "Its the algorythm" is thier blameless excuse. We should all just do a boycott. Seems to be the only language they understand... after its explained to them. They are also using EOMM, CODs new player frustrating match maker
good lord, it's about time. i've been preaching the 17.0 top tier for literal years since 2021 at LEAST
Seek Gripen Incident...
?
@@SeekerHead never beating the gripen allegations...
What’s the gripen allegations
@@SeekerHead GRIPEN DEEZ NUTZ :gunemoji: :skullemoji:
@@Shizwiz omg
We should really force Gaijin to increase max BR. They are like person that is asked to clean up but all they do is move garbage around to a different places in the house.
They only way is to state that demand and stop paying them, but you can't convince all hamsters to do that, sadly
I always said that the Me-262A-1a and it's sub-variants should be at the very highest 6.7
Introducing the early WWII jets to Superprops fixes the problem of only having 3 German planes at the BR, thus allowing for bigger matches more regularly. It's also historic, and rather fun to fight Me-262s as Spitfires and P-51 Mustangs. I wouldn't say it is particularly balanced, but it's really not that hard or rare to make a mistake with the 262, and then kill it, even as props, especially superprops.
The Jabo was actually ok at 7.0 until the migs and sabres got downtiered
It's just really not fair to the Me-262s. The F-86A-5 has become one of the most broken planes in the game. They also completely forgot about France when they brought all the Sabres and migs down. Battle ratings should very rarely go down, instead they should go up. I disagree with your logic when you say that people didn't care before, so they shouldn't care now. An uproar is a good thing, even if it took a few shitty changes to actually get traction.
same for italy g91s are soo ass yes the ys and y got a bit lower but are still waaay to high and the low ones are just same br as sabers now 😂😂😂
for me its mostly the inconsistencies that are bothersome the hunter and cl13 were my favourite jets to fly. Glad I can play the cl13 rn but little sad the hunter is still at 9.0
gaijen should just make it so downtiers and uptiers are only a 0.3 br difference
had the same thought thats bscly decompression without decompression xd
.7 is more realistic but yes that would be the dirty fix, as it essentially decompresses as if we would get like 16.0 or so.
@@alxxander7506 I think that it should be only 0.3 and only if you dont find a match it should be 0.7
The cl13b is an absolute powerhouse rn, im so happy its 9.0 now, even though its kinda unfair in downtiers
ironically playing the C2b now is somehow more fun because your teammates are also made out of sabres and migs
As a controller player i feel insulted, having joysticks isnt a excuse atlest for me
Yeah, same here. I use the movement of the planes to get myself in shooting positions rather than hard committing to bursts, and that's usually enough to still kill them because of the damage I end up doing and the energy I retain.
@@kommandantkillcodeis that not how everyone plays? Have I been played by wrong with my controller this whole time. Is there an easier way?
@@NoSleepTill72 Honestly, no there isn't an easier way to make sure that your time on target will get you reliable kills. The game is designed that way because planes are like that, ofc, but it is also a fact that mouse-aim is just not as accurate on controller as it is on PC, especially since mouse-aim has more instructor-related bugs on console. I use button combinations to override control of the aircraft for most of my movements. Rudder is much more impactful for smooth and quick maneuvering than most people give it credit for btw, so making max and min yaw and max and min pitch controls will work wonders for making the process of positioning for guns a lot better and consistent.
I found playing sim on controller way better but it did take a year of fine tuning to even get the aircraft off the ground lmao 🤣
The Lim-5 being a F-5 Shenyang at 8.7 is pretty disgusting, even without missiles it can just go vertical for days. Not sure why 9Bs are considered worth a .6 BR increase when they are found at 8.0.
Like the Japanese F-40 sabre which should be 8.7 but got left at 9.0 like it doesn't have the same flight performance as an 8.3 F-25 Sabre
Amen
War Thunder is the definition of scope creep and power creep.
There are so many planes and ground vehicles that there is no way to balance all of it.
They would have to fundamentally change how War Thunder works as a game in order to have anything close to “balance”
Here is a good metaphor. War Thunder is a giant cruise ship, so if it ever wants to change directions then it will take large amounts of work and time.
So I think War Thunder is always going to have this problem. This is why I stopped playing.
Plenty of other quality flight simulators out there.
I don't know when you last played it but the 6.0 matchmaker is waaay better than it used to be. Very rarely do you have 6v6 matches with 4 288s on one team anymore
Yeah it certainly isn’t as common but I had a couple of them in my sit down last week. Still horribly balanced either way.
6.0 on ground is a different story now lol
M18 going to 6.0 basically garuntees you face full king tiger line ups instead of the 4 max when it'd BR was 5.7. Murica suffers 🤣
Welp, time to bring the M24 to 5.7 lol
"The F104 is taking a fat dookie onto every match it enters. How do we fix this?"
"Comrade, chave Spitfire and 262 fight Super Sonix with pulse doppler radar.... Also introduce new i16 model with R60s"
The crack pipe commitment and stubbornness to take every wrong turn is to be commended. It's almost like they want to make every BR bracket miserable to play to entice players to pay to skip the grind.
I'm currently enjoying this BR change as having to constantly dealing with Starfighters and Lightnings in a Mig-15 is outrageous.
Once I stayed in a 2v3 me and an Alpha Jet against 3 Starfighters.
It was straight a game of "Dodge this!" 😂 when they just try to put a M61 burst onto us while we just push S while after that they just have to dodge a tree or the ground they were going into.
It was fun then it dragged for too long...
When I started playing six years ago, the CL-13B was the alpha predator. I don’t know if this is nostalgia, but I’m sure it was more fun and more of a challenge before supersonics or maybe missiles.
Coming from someone that’s getting to the 8.0-9.0 range for my first few nations (US, USSR, France) I will say I absolutely love that they dropped the Mig-15bis to 8.3 and the Mig-17 to 8.7. I faired pretty well with the 15bis at 8.7 anyways but dropping it makes it less annoying constantly dying to missiles, and now that I’m researching the mig17 I’m glad that i can look forward to actually using it rather than it being useless at 9.0 getting dunked on by supersonic jets and missiles
im surprised noones talking about gun velocity and damage nerf tbh
Which is better cl13 or g91y? Or are they on equal ground? (Both got moved to 9.0)
The Me 262 C-2b is in an even more abysmal state after these BR changes.
We should get a dynamic BR System after every Month or Battle Pass they change the BR of good performing vehicles up and of bad performing vehicles down, not just one time but every time so the game is much more dynamic.
The only problem I see with air br decompression is bringing planes into ground battles unless they do something to tanks as well or have separate br's for ground rb and air rb
The CL13B Mk.6 problem is that on 9.3 you got a lot of uptiers and died quite a lot cause 20G-30G Missile is locked on you. On 9.0 you get way less up tiers and even in full uptiers i performed well.
Ayit is king without a crown at 9.3, so glad it is not facing Mig-15bis and f86 anymore. always uptiers =)
With the player numbers now they probably could narrow the window when it's busy.
The biggest one of these changes that I don't understand is moving the M-18 Hellcat up to 6.0. It was fine at 5.7.
Seek, I’d like to know your thoughts on them adding .5 into the BR bracket. Yeah it probably wouldn’t change a whole lot but it can for sure help with widening out the compression, and reevaluating the tech trees. Games would still be within the -1 +1 BR matchmaker. But having a lot more things shifted up or down so certain vehicles don’t see ones that would be just broken to face against.
About the list of airplanes that grief korean era jets Idon´t think the A-5C suffers that much in uptiers and still it griefs hard averyting at its br or lower. Maybe its not that manouvrable, but its almost as fast as an 104, has flares and Magics 1. Is just that I´ve been playing that battle rating lately and if you see a A-5, unless its braindead, the most possible outcome is for you to end dead.
13:35 is legit the most true thing Ive heard lately, and is part of the reason I dont really like props. It is an entire min maxing plane performance fest of people playing the best possible prop and side climbing the entire game then it just comes down to who has the best plane.
8:40, annnndddd THAT is why I appreciate you, Seek. Any other youtuber would have taken that shot, Respectable.
At top tier I’m much more lenient about stealing. In this BR though I try to be more fair. I’ll fake a shot like I did regardless just to try to make them panic and lose control or lose energy to make it easier on the teammate. He deserved more kills than he got in that game anyway
@@SeekerHead fair enough for top tier...
I call the pushing tactic "Rodeo clowning" if I ever run out of ammo (
i think its somewhat ok because its a pain to face a 10.0 or 10.3 all aspect 30g missiles when you have only 2xaim9b or non at all
I don’t understand why they don’t just make the +/- br difference to be in matches like .5-.7. It would effectively decompress BRs across the board without needing to increase the top BR.
It would cut down how many significant BR changes that would need to be made by a significant margin, and they could really pinpoint the problem vehicles in certain ratings.
Totally agree with you 6.0 Br is horrific. 288 at 6.3 doesn't help too
10:54 You have forgotten about my fav. which is Ariete. A flareless and AAMless plane that can easily dogfight against almost anything it meets besides 2 platforms, which is F-104 and MiG-19. While fighting F-104 is hopeless, because Ariete is to agile for him to hit it, and starfighter is to fast to hit back, against MiG it's mostly a matter of time. Ariete is good enough that if you dont make any massive mistakes you will stay in the fight, while 19 will make one mistake and it will go down
BTW the saggytits 1 is the same br as the ariete now for some reason
@@ayylmao8901 saggi at 9.3 is still quite good. Its ariete thats way to low.
At least in my opinion
the longer matchmaker for more spaced brs can be countered by 8v8s!!
I miss pre cl-13a korean war jet gameplay tbh.
In personal opinion they should have moved the top 12.7s to 13.0, canceled the air downtiers, and changed the M18s back to SPGs, and then done another BR adjustment before the second update of this year.
Tbh the 10.0 and 9.7 aircraft kill it, the usual suspects include; A-5, Kfir Canard, Su-25k, A-10, I like the AV-8s at that BR it’s bad at turn fighting and is subsonic but gets 9Gs; I’m biased though. The Sea Harrier with 9Ls shouldn’t be there though
After playing this game for 4k hours im so glad i decided to do simracing
I’m got to USA top tier, I’m grinding Germany and I’m at that phase of meh jets besides like 2
Honest to god, the vatour IIN late (tech tree one) needs to either have it elevator fixed, or by put down into 8.0 from 8.3. The thing genuinely can’t turn so I would rather the first one. If it could just actually turn at 33 seconds it would be fine, but it’s bugged and you can barely pull your nose at all.
The list of planes you put up is all i ever see anyone flying lol
one of the reason this BR change got so much hate is because gaijin exclusively said the better alternative in their dev blog(moving some 9.3 like 104 a up in br), then said "nah we are just gonna keep causing suffering to an entier bracket than to nerf 1 plane"
If gaijin would just cap certain BR brackets this wouldnt be an issue, for example 9.3 cant be uptiered to 10.3, it would not really change much for 8.3 vehicles but it would allow them to move some vehicles up to 9.3 and give some breathing room to a BR like 8.0.
I know its not perfect and that BR I threw out is just an example not a suggestion but I think it would be a good start.
Just stop letting certain BR's get uptiered so that they are top dog for the mid BR range, then if you play a vehicle that is above the cutoff it goes into the next bracket but cant be downtiered to bully other vehicles.
I played my meteor reaper and im getting dunked on by sabres and mig 15s 😢 skill issue i guess
They just killed Sweden. Like. Planes are still useless, but now ground 5.7 before 9.3 is almost unplayable and 7.7-8.7 have only several playable vehicles at all. They are also took away proximity fuse shells away from Veak 40, so now your only playable AA starts from 8.7. And there is literally only one vehicle on 6.7 and only one vehicle on 7.0 everything after is instantly 7.7.
I actually find 5.7 to be quite nice. I know you said 6.0, but I’ve had mostly full games and the A7M (ik it’s 5.3), Tempest MkV, and the Ki 84 Otsu are superrrr enjoyable as of late
It could be that I’ve been a jet main since forever, but if I ever play props it’s always 3.7-5.7. Really fun bracket but the occasional 6.3 games absolutely suck. That bracket is like the golden age of props too :/
Let's dream of a 16.0 br together! Good video!
Btw, could we get a second squadron to join to farm squadron vehicles please. First one is full :(
I have 3 right now. SHCS, SHCSC, SCS1
@@SeekerHead thx
Wonder when they're gonna actually make detonating ordnance on someone destroy the plane... The amount of times you blew something up on someone in this vid
but the SAG for italy is still 9.3 CRAZZZYYY no missiles no countermeasures but its FoR bAlAnCe
its terrible. you pretty much the only subsonic in the match and cant do anything
No, no… he’s got a point. But… some of us aren’t RUclipsrs and therefore don’t get a full downtier every match
No way, it's about time the Cl13bMk6 clapped
damn gaijin is just allergic to decompression completely
Things started to get really wack when they thought 9L at 10.0 would be ok. It’s been a domino effect since then that started with attack aircraft of all things.. big money involved when you wave aim 9L at 10.0 in front of peoples faces..
this is the worst br change because it improves basically nothing and makes gameplay for jet newcomers awful. last time this situation was happening was like 10 years ago, when there wasnt a balancer and me262 was playing against mig15 and sabre. and now it happens again
GE for warthunder doesn't work for me😂 it won't except my email
Q-5 / A-5c is haven right now
At this point I'd just change the matchmaking so you cannot even fight planes that are a full BR above or below you. Let's say you're playing a 9.0 and you can only see up to 9.7 and down to 8.3.
I believe that would be a good start. Yes it would take longer to find a match but I'd rather wait for an extra 30 seconds and get a match where I stand a chance. It might not even effect the matchmaking time all that much if it means people are just gonna have more fun and therefore play more.
I’m so happy I can finally enjoy the sabres but I feel bad for anyone else.
anyway I’m gonna bully some 262s
Maybe its just me but instead of br changes make it so you only see 0.7 above and 0.7 below....ill take the slower matchmaking for that change, feel like it would fix 90% of the issues
It had been on 9.3 from 2019-2020 and that was perfect, when they did that uped to 9.7 it was essentialy unusable, 9.0 is just probably bit OP, i mean climb rate is insane and like 15% better than Mig 15 Bis which is already great one, or being litteraly faster than MiG-17 is just not good.
cl13b is down, f40 sabre isn't. Logic :D
Another one
Spitfire mk24 is down but mk22 isn't, now both being 6.7 but mk24 have high octane fuel :D
It would make more sense to just not have moved the CL, since none of the other 9B planes went down
@@SeekerHead yup. Just make higher br cap god dammit gaijin. Soon mig23ml/mla with a crapy rdr will have to fight arh missiles xD
SU-25T still fighting against F14B at the best scenario!
I went from average of 0 kills and 0 deaths per game but after the br changes i went to 0 death 3 kills average per game. I fucking love the (german) mig 15bis now.
Wait MiG-17AS is still at 9.0💀?
The after burning MiG-17s moved down to same br as normal one???
Only the Lim5P type. The true mig17F is still 9.3 bc missiles
@@SeekerHead Still amazes me we don’t have a MiG-17F in Russian Tree. All they need is to copy and paste 😭
Cant lie. That is the best creator decal I’ve seen and I’m not even an American (eagle people)
If it sells it even better, I understand everyone’s going to look at it and think America, but I actually chose the bald eagle because of 2 reasons: F15, my favorite jet, is named eagle. I look at it as a personified F15 holding a sidewinder - and my favorite animal irl. (I am American though)
Best part is using the premium mig 21s in arcade can get it down to a 8.7 br with radar guided missiles you can use from head on it’s cheating.
Seek not addressing the grippen allegations
I disagree with the 6.0 point you brought up (otherwise not much else)
It depends a bit on how exactly you mean it though. Personally do think there is a fair amount to fly, the bf109 mostly are ok (though I do think the bf109k is one of the weaker ones. It’s not terrible though). The p51 is nice to play, The spitfires are pretty nice, especially if they have the 4x20mm and better firepower. The Russians seem to be fine too (don’t play them though). Most the other nations have at least 1 copy of one of these or their own decent stuff.
Then some very early jets that are kinda fun to play against anyway (other then when they run at stupid speeds but hey that is most tiers)
The only problem is that there is the Ju288 imo. I’m not saying there isn’t any shit planes ofc. There is plenty, but do think it’s a decent tier for the most part. Played 5.7 and 6.7 a lot especially.
The main tiers I hate are very low tier since the planes just don’t define themselves enough (doesn’t matter if you have a better engine if that means 5hp extra. You still getting shot) and around 11.0 since you’ll only see top tier anyway (even worse in tanks)
I'm enjoying the Sabre and migs wayyyyy to much I honestly think it's a decent change for those planes but everything below 8.0 suffers big time
2 year mark for me uninstalling is coming up.... glad i did xD
As a console player i love 50 cals? They slap on thr g-91 i would prefer a cannon with shittons of ammo rather than a cannon that rips a wing with 1 bullet but has no ammo especially if you can aim well and can hit importabt parts
I personally hate them, at least on the sabres. I have no idea why but it always takes like 200 rounds to actually do good damage. A few weeks ago I was shooting a jet and I started out with 1800 rounds, dumped about 600 and then got missiled
i literally just got to 7.0, and now it's been completely ruined by hoards of people playing the mig15.
is that GE real??
Why not just have a matchmaker that puts you in a game with a +/- 0.7 br gap instead of +/- 1.0 br gap? Most problems solved
The funny thing is the 6.0 bracket, is what allows the He-162 to do anything, is that it allows it to play around braindead superprop players going after the 288's. If there is more than a few aircraft on either side, it gets far less useful.
Only fax and logic in this vid
Finally it ain’t r60 and 9l br anymore
if they only ADD aim9b the AIR RB would be fun but they add others so AIR RB is not fun anymore
Oooooo Nice 👍
Time for some clubbing ❤😂
Welp the CL13 was shit and now it's not. I like it
Shit br change, but man the sabre is fun now
Genius Gaijin move. They add more and more vehicles but make some unplayable so that the total amount of vehicles that are played stays the same.
After 3 months of grinding and unlocking unplayable vehicles they change the BRs so players can switch to their now useable vehicles to unlock more unplayable vehicles until the next change.
😂😂😂
Finally a guy eho understands us console players! Well I want to buy 1 year of premium account so I can learn flying this peacefully.
i used the CL 13 B as the first missile aircraft I got, and let me tell you that its insanely sad at 9.3, where AV8 and A 10s will absolutely cook you with their basically undodgable missiles. I think at 9.0 Its very powerful but its fair that germany gets a playable jet at that BR. As every other nation has missiles when the sad german migs don't. Its insane how many times Ive got folded in the CL13 B for having no radar, no CM, no Afterburners(Supersonic), and having one of the worst missiles in the game, matching with F104s and AV8s, If u thing this is unfair, just take a look at the Stupid no skill American tech tree.
Idk dude i play sim 😂
3:20 because the consequences of it are pretty obvious. F104 went down because it was facing all aspect carriers, Korean war jets are moving down because of the F104, what's next? am i going to fight an Me262 or god forbid an Su-11 regularly on my Bf109 G6/ Yak 3/ P51 D30 because they were suffering against sabre's? Personally, i'd rather see the F104 at 10.0 and never touch it than seeing everything else suffer because of it. I am about to reach 7.0 in like 4 different nations now and i am already dreading having to fight sabres and mig 15's
Watch later into the video. The F104 isn’t the only issue, far from it
Also, the fact that this is always how Gaijin has worked on Br's really isn't justification for a terrible Br change that's just wrong. Otherwise we could make that argument for literally anything else
Okay, but that still doesn’t change the fact the F104 is only 1 of 20 or so vehicles that make Korean jets unplayable
SEEKSAB
F8u is bae
You're bugging about 6.0, sure it's a lot worse than previous BRs, but it's not nearly as bad as you make it sound and it's a lot better than jets in general. I personally have a great time flying attackers at that BR and have no problem maintaining good stats in them.
It is quite literally Anti Player For gaijin to tell the community that they are wrong and that they (gaijin) are right.
Edit, unclear
Hi Loudward
brother that GE for gold is a scam.. ive done like a days worth of tasks and got nothing, no vpn, no dns ^^
Do you have your account linked to the app?
@@SeekerHead yes yes, followed the stuff to the letter but it might just not work in my region, lots of surveys take a long time just to go "you are not what we are looking for" at the end, game rewards don't work and when you can finish a survey, there's no reward.. searching a bit it seems it's very common and people just give up..
I wonder if you can get ahold of support for it, or I can if you give me the account details
@@SeekerHead yes, I tried contacting support but got nothing, about account.. it is not great to share personal info on yt comments xD but I tried giving it another try, diamond task, web session survey, took 25mins(and there's video xD) and actually paid out 7ge... Needs further testing.
F-86F-40 smokes the CL13 in a fight and you are mad they are they same br? (in RB, in AB they are still 1.0 apart)
would much rather face an A-10 than an F-86F-40 in the CL, it has a few real seconds of turn time on it..
Just because you have killed CLs in the F40 does not mean it “smokes” it. Be careful about drawing conclusions based on your fight with the average player. The CL13B has leading edge slats, just like the F40. While sure, the F40 has ever so slightly longer wings, the extra engine power of the CL is a much more considerable gap in performance than what the F40 wings provide, which is marginal. The CL13B is just straight up a better plane it’s no question.
@@SeekerHeadwrong way around, I have the CL and love it but I avoid F-40's.. how do you utalise the extra power if you cant extend away/stall climb in a flareless plane?.. open to tips on what do do..
@@SeekerHeadI play AB at that BR so who knows in RB you might have a point but in AB it is quite close
@@samuelforsyth6374what do you do? You take advantage of the 13B’s better retention and equally cracked roll. The cl13b leaves every other saber except the 86K in the dust in terms of acceleration. Abuse vertical, and watch the F40s crumble. Literally unless you go into a braindead turnfight you’re completely untouchable to the F40 once you make it past the first few turns
the jag gr1 shouldnt be on that list
It’s supersonic and carriers AIM9G. That’s literally all a plane needs to be game breaking to subsonic, flareless, missileless Korean War jets
@@SeekerHeadit’s still a shit brick and 9Gs are some of the easiest missiles to dodge short range, you can argue even that you can force head on and instantly nullify its missiles + again it’s a shit brick past .85M and the engines are not very powerful even considering they’re afterburning. I can agree with the t2 because the 9J/P is way harder to react to if properly lead AND can be slaved to its PD radar not to mention it makes better use of those piss poor engines with a wayyy better airframe past 800kmh not to mention can actually break Mach on the deck without blowing its wings off or cooking its engines. Even things like the Yak38 dogshit airframe but the missiles are almost impossible to dodge
The hunter F.6 griefs lol hunter F6 OP!!!! But apparentl the hunter F58 for germany doesnt
all of this because of the brain dead us players in their f104s
I agree 6.0 games are garbage, will never play that br if I can avoid it, I just use the yak 3u to bully enemy CAS in ground battles