Gain Staging in Logic Pro - What Is It, & Does It Even Matter?
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- Опубликовано: 6 июл 2024
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Few things strike as much fear/disdain for Logic users than the word Gain Staging. But is Gain Staging even relevant in Logic? Check out the in-depth video. 
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That's how you prove a point. Take a look kids, learning more on RUclips than university!
Yep
Thanks for the normalization tip in Logic. Should be shouted from the highest mountain how cool this is.
I bought a plug in to do this for me recently.
I wish I had known before.
Agreed ! Just got my new MBP w Logic again , and thought about having to go through the utility everytime I import - excellent .will be doing this with all sessions here forth .
13:11 to end is the part worth millions. Funny thing is, I’ve seen the Normalize option, never used it.
Thanks!
Unfortunately, there’s a lot of egotistical “ self taught “ Logic Pro users that have become too proud to do things the right way as well as influencing others to have that mentality. I’m trying every day to learn the correct way without having to pay so much for this in school and you, sir, are teaching the correct way. I’ve learned a lot from your videos and appreciate your expertise on this software. Thank you!!
12:47 - Function > Normalize Region Gain
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Very illustrative and useful presentation. Thank you.
I’ve looked everywhere, but can’t find normalize region gain in the function menu. Logic 10.6
I LOVE THIS CHANNEL!! Learning so much after 9 years in Logic and still love it the most!
wow. the last minute really opened my eyes. cool tricks !!!!
Thank you for this. I can’t help thinking I should have learned this years ago. Will always apply from now on.
Simple but effective demonstration of how gain staging is still important today, thanks for making this video 👍
Thank you for explaining this so clearly and without bias!
Good stuff. I am currently enrolled at Full Sail University and this is in my current class. I can hear why it is used in Professional Mixing.
Keep up the great work Chris. I love your teaching style and what you do for the LPX community.
You really are explaining everything in a very clear and informative way. I love it ! Subscribed !
Thrilled to help! Thanks for watching :)
Nowhere else have I seen such an explanation. Thanks!
I absolutely LOVE your methodology in your videos. Gain staging absolutely matters. In addition to this information, for the same reasons gain staging can really impact the sound of instruments being connected into audio interfaces and other equipment. Thank you for this video!
The other reason why I do think gain staging is extremely helpful is that you train your ear a lot better since you can A/B between processed sound and non processed without any perceived loudness difference. For that, is better to use LUFS metering system when mixing I think.
Some great tips here, thank you for the video. Something not discussed in many tutorials I see on gain staging is the impact on CPUs from too hot of signal. The greater the waveform amplitude, the more processing needed and load stress on your CPU. When your CPU isn't processing efficiently, you get artifacts and aliases. Just one more reason why gain staging is so important in the digital environment.
Thank you so much for this, subbed.
You always put out such great content, thank you so much!!!
Wow! What a scientific way to demonstrate the effect of gain position in the audio signal chain ❤️ using phase inversion on a copy. Very helpful historical context too. Thank you.
13:15 normalise regions automatically 🤔😃 Definitely giving this a try
Long story short analog gear color is harmonic distortion that is reacting to the amplitude. So you'd better get your amplitude right before your analog emulation plugin.
To take this further, the amplitude getting clipped isn't just one homogeneous absolute dB value, it applies to each individual frequency's amplitude. So EQ adjustments before or after the emulated analog plugin will have different sounds compared to each other too.
And lastly compression can make the quieter harmonics loud enough that they can get further harmonic distortion, so compression before or after the emulated analog plugin will have different sounds compared to each other as well.
As an electric guitar player with 40 pedals on my board I can confidently say gain staging is real and that the order of your plugins will have a massive affect on the final sound.
Thank You! Best regards from Poland!
I just use a template with all pre-fader levels set to -18. As I load each plugin, I bring the plugin level up until I’m hitting around-12, then turn off pre-fader and adjust levels from there. Leaves me lots of headroom for mastering.
That's literally the same exact thing I do. Just eases my workflow 1000%
Hmmmm
How would I get or make a template that does that?
Really well put together video. Thank you
Great video! Can you explain why you normalize for loudness? 23 LUFS seems a lot louder than 0 VU just by looking at the transients in the video. Thanks!
Think u got the most.vids on my saved favourite list for ,future reference... Thanks alot, ur doin God s work! Respect!!!
A year later and is still helping me making better music!
Super good sir. I've been using logic for bout 6 years now and this is still refreshing to hear that someone is sending this to the masses. Continue debunking the myth though.
Side note, any way gain can be adjusted by automation instead for each fader like pro tools? Was so used to it, it's a hassle sometimes on logic. Besides normalising...
Thanks for your great contribution on RUclips!! Just one little detail: Why do you do the last wonderful part in this video so fast..? It's a new thing and every one wants to see what you do there. Of course I am a slow learner but I think I am one among many. If you are a musician who decides to learn to create in Logic without earlier experience, it's wonderful If the teacher are not in a great hurry when the decisions are at hand. I had to rewind and rewind to see how you did that pre set thing and now I will go back and look again! 😇😊
Awesome. Subscribed.
When I do
-23 lufs it’s super loud.
When I do -18 peak it’s much softer.
You recommend -23 is that better for analog type plugins? Thanks for your time.
Hey Chris! Can you elaborate a little bit about gain-staging based on loudness?
Awesome video - thank you!!!
Very smart. Great points and great idea for comparing. I have always kind of assumed it but you just managed to prove it. Subscribed.
Thanks so much for the kind words and vibes!
Thanks for this, Chris!
Thank you for this video!
That's a great tip re: using the normaliize function
Very good man! Thank you
This is a fine video and all. I’ve never understood why people have such a hard time with this concept, esp with modeled plugins.
It’s something anyone who works with a guitar and an amp should easily grasp.
Plug guitar into amp, turn up volume of guitar all the way up.
Turn amp on.
Turn gain of amp up til it distorts.
Turn volume on guitar volume down until it doesn’t distort.
Control distortion with volume knob on guitar.
Same concept with modeled plugs in a DAW.
I'm going to add to the chorus of people commenting on "Normalise Region Gain"
I had always thought that it was a destructive process, and that it altered the source file.
INCORRECT.
I had previously been making trim points at particularly loud passages, and altering the region gain MANUALLY,
but this.. takes the same idea to an entire new ummm.. _level_.
(Yes, that was a pun, but I'm leaving it in).
Worth watching this video for that point alone!
..and yes, there are some other interesting points, as well.
Great information young man.. That was extremely helpful.
Happy you found the video useful JT :)
Thank you! Really nice pedagogical approach!
Thanks for watching Kioto!
This is an awesome explanation. Well thought out with excellent examples. And the tip to have Logic set the gain automatically at the end of the video is great!
Thanks so much for the kind words!
just watched it for the second time, still very useful!
Gain staging ALWAYS matters. Even with digital. This is music. This is art. Idealism is important, some would argue essential.
didn't watch the video huh?
very interssing. for me older guy o know. Thanks
Probably a dumb question, but for best practice, should you gain stage a “dry” track, then gain stage it again after each plugin is added to the track as well?
Wow! Im making my transition from Reason to Logic... This channel made me take the decision. THANKS FOR THIS.
I switched from Reaon to LPX about 7 years ago and I love LPX in every apect more. Admittedly, I'm sure I didn't use Reason to it' full capability but I do think it appeals mostly to people who are used to an analog setup, with the routing cables and all (I have no analog experience)
I've used Reason for 5 years and just picked up Logic a month or two ago... I love Reason, but Logic beats it by a long shot. Logic in my honest opinion has better control than Reason. On top of that, Logic is also "industry standard." (Sister of ProTools supposedly.) But one thing Reason did teach me, is understanding how to use mixing consoles and racks if I were to hop into a real studio.
Any advice on how to fix a mix that was recorded with clipping?
wow wow and wow that normalisation feature in logic is a total game changer!!!! What a time saver this will be for me...thank you!!! I've always gain staged to -12db but in my next mix I'll try -18 if you think that's even more effective. With midi instruments I've always turned the volume down of the synth however does adding a gain plugins at the top do the exact same thing?
Does the normalization in Logic apply only to audio track? What about virtual instruments?
Great content! Subbed
Thanks Ted!
When I gain stage each channel on my mix I end up with instruments clashing together. I have put the volume at 0dB and each channel is at -18dB Gain. How can I change the volume of each channel to go together? For example, my shakers and vocals are sound the same volume, but I want the shakers to sit in the back and the vocals to pop out. How do I do this without changing the gain or volume from -18dB and 0dB volume?
THANK YOU ! for this gain stagin video!
If you want a really good sound, it really pays to keep the levels peaking at -20dB, especially if it's going to a converter.
QUESTION: i am a beginner with DAW's and i want to make sure that when i am plugging in my mic (blue yeti) that i get good input levels before recording. after watching this video however, since i am not using any analog-type plug in's (and i do not have an audio interface at the moment either), should i personally be worrying about gain staging?
YEAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH hellz yes you should be worrying about gain-staging unless you gonna pay an audio engineer
Nicely done!
Thanks Gribb 59!
+Why Logic Pro Rules Out of curiosity, why do you prefer to set gain stage to -23 Loudness as opposed to -18 Peak? I don't understand the difference of what advantages one might have over the other.
I’m thinking for added headroom for mastering maybe? Hopefully he’ll expand and explain this.
this procedure is sending the signal in the processors digitally clipping (probably)
I think that the correct approach would be first cutting the volume and then boosting it up again
Im pretty adept, and normally know most production techniques, as I started way before the internet so earned my stripes........
But occasionally , theres that nugget of gold...
i was looking recently at a Reaper video doing this... and was thinking , "If only Logic did this"
Well, suck me dry and call me dusty.......
13:08
Its the Simple things....How did i not know about this??? But now i do !
It will change my life.... Sometimes Auto is better than manual. Talk about timesaver...
1, you're not that adept, matty.
2, "suck you dry"?? You're a fucking adolescent, ignorant clown.
@@chipgaasche4933 Maybe look into some anger management.
Question, why can't I select Normalize Region Gain for my recordings?
thank you sir
Hey Chris, thanks for great video! One question if you could answer please: If i do normalize gain as you showed at the end of the video, will i loose the stereo field I've created by different track volumes? Also what will happens with the volume automations I've set for some regions?
Thanks a lot!
Stereo field and level balance are two different things. Normalization will affect the level balance of your mix, but will not affect instrument placement in your stereo field. You'll have to re-balance everything after you've normalized all tracks that needed normalization. Your level automation points won't change after normalization either, so you'll have to redo your track automations. Hope that helps.
@@slowpokeproductions yep! That cleared heaps! Thanks!!
Without that sie EQ ...when u increase gain 15 db ( start distorted ) ..and then reduce it again ..that also produce distortion .? Right ?
Why u insert that sie EQ inbetween two gain knobs .. to show distortion ...pls I want to know ..
My question about that -18, do I have to aim for this spot while recording (and if not, at what db should my signal enter Logic via my interface?), or do I aim for it afterward in the gain staging during the mix process?
I've heard from sound guys that when recording to digital it's best to aim between -12dB and -6dB, -12dB being on the safe side. The -18dB comes from the relationship between VU and FS meters, as far as I understand it, 0 dB VU = -18 FS and it's the supposed best level to hit the subsequent plug ins at. I'm learning this myself, so take it with a grain of salt.
Quick question, does the normalize region gain work on midi tracks as well? If not, is there an alternative to this function?
you can turn down the main synth or instrument volume instead at the source
Question about the normalising gain function (which is a great point, i've been copying a gain plug in every time). What does the algorithm function do? what's the difference if i choose loudness or peak?
Peak will normalize to the highest peaks in the track which may or may not be desirable, although it does increase the entire level of the whole track. Loudness normalizes based on what the human ear expects to hear and averages the volume overall, not necessarily having to apply gain over the whole performance. I hope I explained that properly lol. In other words, loudness would treat the valleys and peaks independently and average out the signal to be louder, but palatable, and peak would raise level closer to the loudest parts of the performance. Hope that makes sense, I'm not as adept or as eloquent at explaining these things as Chris is!
Thanks for the great video, so how am I going to raise the volume on the master channel to -6 dbfs for mastering purposes?
You can always place a Gain plugin on the Stereo Output to adjust the level of the whole mix.
@@WhyLogicProRules But wasn´t the point in this video that you should aim for -18 db? Or does it only matter when the signal hits the plugins spesifically?
@@sondresolstrand Your follow-up question is different than your original question. Chris correctly answered your original. Hitting your processors is a different ball game. If you've adequately gain-staged each instrument or vocal at the time of recording, you should have no problem with your master level during final mix/mastering. I was always taught to "cut" (record) tracks with mixing in mind, so that there's less to do in the final; meaning, process each track that you're recording as if it were the "final mix". Gain staging is the absolute first step in that process, and after implementing a processing chain, the only thing you'll need to do is just seat the track in the mix and/or tweak your processing. This is extremely helpful when you're dealing with a large amount of tracks. When I embark on a final mix and put all my faders at zero, before I even hit the play button, the mix is basically already there, and the master level rarely needs to be addressed. Hope that helps.
Is the "COMP 1" track left in solo (showing at 8:23)?
Glad I'm not the only one who caught that.
Would you gain stage even things like tambourines & sharp hi hats? The wave is always so small after I bounce in place from Maschine into logic. If I gain stage they are super loud in the mix, just to be tuned down on the fader again. Thanks~
Great question, to my understanding the answer is no. If you sure a certain sound or instrument is going to sit very low in the mix or is there solely for background or texture you may not need to gain stage it. Just make sure the fader is set to 0, and the Peak meter is hitting between -6db and -18db on the start.
to normalise region gain will that do the midi as well ..thanks
No. It needs to be an audio file for that to happen.
MIDI is just control information.
Note on. G3. At bar 1
Note off. G3 At bar 2
That sort of thing.
(Yes, that's a little over-simplified)
HOWEVER if you record/bounce all of your MIDI tracks as Audio files..
THEN you can use Normalise Region Gain
Question: What if there is the rare transient that you would like to discount and adjust the gain of the regions past -18DbFS? Is there a manual way to do that if you apply the function: Normalize Region gain?
Specifically you would want to listen and manually "trim" the gainstage... I am used to doing this in Protools but not Logic.
@@ClayHurst You’ve probably found your answer by now, but what I do is make a cut on either side of the transient I want to disregard, select everything on that track except for the new region containing the transient, and normalize the selected regions. Then I adjust the separated transient to where it needs to be, usually running a separate normalization just on that single region.
I do this a lot when working with dialogue and a lav has transient-like rubbing on the talent’s clothing or being accidentally tapped-that I don’t want to affect my overall normalization.
would this be "cheating" though? would I get better results by doing it manually track by track using a vu meter because specific instruments like vocals for example are so dynamic? if this is such a game changer why dont i see more people using this method?
Update: When using this method of normalization for gain staging I measured the signal of an individual track with a vu meter and the level was very low even though it was peaking at -18db.
Am i missing something here? Plz help
Is it just me have difficulty in distinguishing the difference made by the +24db signal with Logic's Console EQ?
Can this method of normalizing the region gain be applied as a final step of mixing? Also if youve already drew in automation for every track?Thanks!
You could, but that could be a nightmare...at least in the FINAL stage of mixing as you stated. If you've done all your automation, and you still need normalization, I would consider compressing your stereo or master buss and gain stage it in your final mix. This way you wouldn't have to re-automate and you wouldn't lose the articulations you so painstakingly applied. If you're satisfied with your mix, but you're still low on level overall, that's what I would suggest. I just mastered several mixes for a client whose levels were dreadfully low on each track, but he liked the mixes, so I just compressed the stereo buss, raised the gain, EQd a bit, and voila...mixes saved. I'm now doing the client's entire catalogue! Hope that helps.
@@slowpokeproductions Thanks for the detailed aid, I greatly appreciate it!
Best content bro!!!
Thanks so much Macho!
Great video, but when I try to use the Region Gain Normalization, it doesn't work for me. For example, my kick is around -11dB in the channel strip meter. When I apply peak normalization to -18dB, Logic adds another 11dB gain to the track, nearly sending the track into the red. It adds about 6dB, when using loudness normalization. Any idea why this is happening?
I try not to use the normalization command, mostly because it's harder to change it if you want to later in the mix. Shooting for -18dBfs is smart, but every now and then you find you need to hit the processing harder. So, instead of normalization, I go to the region inspector window on the left. There is a place to type in gain, plus or minus. So if your audio is -11dBfs just type in there -7. It takes longer to listen to and adjust each track, but I usually know what sort of plugin I might try and i can hear how it is hitting that for effect. I find that since I gain stage more, my individual tracks sound less impactful alone, but group bus and and things like a parallel crush can really add impact to your tone.
@@alexbreyer6921 I think you didnt really try this trick. You are talking about the normalisation as a destrutive process apparently.
But the trick here, you can adjust afterwards the gain as you currently do ! Check this out:
ruclips.net/video/FmmOw9N1TZo/видео.html
Tnx
Great video!!! Thank you. So, I have many questions. I do use many plugs that need correct gain staging to hit the modeled "sweet spots".
1. If the following is true (or even close) "-18dbFS=0vu" then , (e.g. - drum recording) if we were really recording analog, I would certainly be letting some peaks fly above 0 on my VU meters especially Snare and Kick. So wouldn't I look to set my digital peaks to more like -12 or -8 in order to recreate the levels expected by analog-style plugs?
2. What is the significance of buss clipping in Logic? Does it only matter if I am using processing on the buss?
3. Sometimes my drum buss may be clipping 2 or 3 db. Will that cause distortion at the Master Output?
4. Does Logic reduce the outputs of the busses in order to sum them at the output?
Actually, I just did a bunch of reading on floating point, etc. I may have answered my own question, but I'm looking forward to your response
Thanks Thaddeus! To answer your questions:
1. I say play around and see what sounds good! The -18 dBFS is a guide, and not a rule. I can get neurotic, and will try to make sure no peak exceeds 0 VU. But sometimes you want that little bit of saturation :)
2. In Logic, clipping really only matters once you hit the Stereo Output. Every channel and bus could technically be clipping (at the mix stage), but as long as the whole mix is below 0 dB on the Stereo Output, you're good to go. With that said, if you're using analog style processing anywhere in the chain (channel or bus), you'll want to manage your levels as explained in the video.
3. Again, the drum bus clipping will only cause problems if the Stereo Output is clipping.
4) Logic doesn't reduce bus outputs for summing.
Hope that helps!
@@WhyLogicProRules Thank You, yes that helps a great deal! It's very hard to change old analog metering habits to encompass what's really happening digitally, and now, because of analog styled plugins, it is useful knowledge once again.
Happy to help :) @@thaddeuscorea
As a parting thought, I highly recommend adjusting levels to more conservative levels, whether it be by VU meter or normalizing region gain. This is more for anyone else who reads this conversation. While clipping only matters when recording and at the Stereo Output, it's not very good practice to clip all your channels and busses while mixing!
Thanks for the video very helpful. But unfortunately i can't make it work. I turn the gain at +24 in the logic gain plugin and turn down -24 in the logic eq plugin, i still ear the sound. what do i missed in the process. Can you help me please.
Best Regard
Hey Kawin, it depends on what you're test-driving the Channel EQ on. Are you using duplicate Drummer Tracks or instances of Alchemy? Because that will do it.
Hi! Maybe you didn't combine it with a second track with inverted phase: see 04:30
You didn't flip the phase on one of the tracks, most likely.
8:22 you forgot to un-select solo on channel Comp 1 before you moved on
And why does it automatically cancel the previous one every time you press solo on a new channel??
Famous Cryp you can alt- click the solo button to do this :)
@@AlexValdiviaMusic I'll try it
Ok so let’s say you have everything set to -18. Then when you add compressors, eq’s etc that will add more gain. So my question is what is the limit to how much gain you can/should add via effects to your dry signal?
StonethrownMusic, isn’t the answer to this “look at your meters?” That’s what they are there for.
-18 is a 'guide', but if you're steadfast and want to maintain that level, you can always use limiters or compressors' "make-up gain" features to bring your levels back to-18. For as many plugins that are there to raise gain, there are equally as many to reduce it.
firefox? this helped thanks
also if you use fab filter the threshhold of the dynamics are all defaulted to -18dfs. I find a lot more plug and play workflow when everything is gainstaged. You can add stuff and just see how it sounds rather then adding and adjusting.
I just wish it were easier to see -18dfs on the logic meters. Its the spot to focus on and yet the scaling of the meter means you have no hardly any visual feed back on the meter 🤓 just a wimpy bounce at the bottom of the meter. Silly stuff. But logic is still cool. Just illogical meters.
Thanks, ;-)
Help I can’t hear compression
neither can I !
subbed
Ta buddy
Almost all DAW's has 32bit float engine and that's great!
Wait. What? If you are normalizing why are we normalizing to -18dB? Why not, say, -3dB or -6dB to leave some headroom for mastering ... maybe i don't get why 0 UV == -18dB - is it because all your tracks are stacking on each other?
It’s muted .-.
But it wont work for me. All the regions are way above -18dB after doing thins
You can specify to what level you want to normalize, as he showed in the video. Logic's default setting for target level is -1.0. If you change that to -18, you should be fine. Hope to that helps.
note to self @12:48
So, what I think I’m getting from this, is that there are different plugins where gain staging does matter in Logic? Sorry I had to watch this again like 4 times.
I love you
i still don't get anything.
WOW DIDNT KNOW THERE WAS AN AUTOMATE REGION GAIN THING LIKE THAT LMAO IVE BEEN WASTING 10-15 MINS A MIX YOUR THE Man!
I just watched this. Im learning how to mix my own songs because I feel nobody can get exactly what you want but you! Thank you for this video. You helped me. So Gain staging is being used in modern day rap / trap music? Please get back to me if possible. + Check out my latest music video plz; its quality.
Normalizing all audio files to -18 dBFS is nonsense to me. The gain staging is a matter of understood because audio sources have absolutely not the same dynamics so why normalize everything to -18 dB???! Sometimes I base myself on the peak value and for others on the RMS value, but I never normalize ! It’s a matter of compromise ! Listen to your audio sources and make your own decisions instead of letting the machine do the work automatically
So basically the gain in/out doesn't matter for processing that is designed as linear*. As soon as you design in non-linearity, it does matter. So presumably this is why hardware emulations work as such, because the essential non-linearity is also being modelled. And of course compression is essentially a non linear process, too.
Makes sense...
*within the confines of the bit depth... 32 bit float for Logic processing?