It would be really interesting to see a comparison between a typical ISP provided router, the lower end version of these, this higher end version, and a commercial grade router, showing what real world differences you can expect and how much benefit there is to upgrading your router performancewise.
I'd love to see this. I've been eyeing these 4x2.5gbe devices as a potential replacement for a pretty average Asus router, but really have no idea how they'd actually compare in day-to-day usage.
It’s easy. Most commercial routers only have 1 or 2 CPUs and 256-512 MB memory and 1-2 GB storage and a super stripped down OS. That is fine for a regular setup. If you want services like IPS, VPN, Proxy, etc. you need more of everything. Basically, unless you have the need and knowledge, stay with the commercial products.
@@pepeshopping I partly disagree. As an interested calculation/backend developer that's not doing much on the networking front, I want to learn more about networking as a hobby. I think there's a market for people who want capable hardware to 'grow into', within reason of course. I've been eyeing a number of different networking devices and it's a bit tricky to pick the best toy, one that'll keep me busy for a long time.
Me in SoCal: Speed isn't an issue, basic internet is 200/30Mbps, but (and it's a big butt) it's in a zero competition area so we have to pay US$250/month.
I just hit the BUY button on one of these this morning but found that the 6x2.5Gb port version was ~$20 more. After coupons ended up being $261 all done. Then this review drops! Thanks for confirming that the unit is solid!
I'm glad these are out with the 6105 now - this is more of what I'm looking at as a Proxmox and/or Kubernetes host for a small home lab scenario. A few of these, or maybe a couple more, and there's loads of fun in the making.. :)
I ordered a Qotom Barebone System (Q750G5 5X Intel I225-V 2.5G LAN CPU J4125 Quad Core 2.0 GHz - with 5 - 2.5Gbe Ethernet Ports) from Amazon on 8/10/2022 and received it today 8/13/2022. Shipped all the way from China. No shipping problems here. When I opened up the box to install the memory and ssd, I found an 8 GB stick of RAM. That was a special surprise. I have installed OPNsense. Thanks for all of the info on these small computers. It made me brave enough to make my network router.
One big drawback is non-exsistent firmware/bios updates. I used one of this small Chinese 4-NIC boxes for a while and it had some horrible UEFI/ACPI bugs that required various workarounds. It also ran quite hot.
They seem to use regular AMI BIOS, so modding it/running the latest packages should be as simple as running UBU on top of a dump. It shouldn't be to hard to make at least an updated BIOS and keep it in the forums for the community.
If you think you need a fan on the Kingnovy unit I would recommend this: Since the Kingnovy unit can sit on its side, you can do so, remove the bottom and go buy some cheap mesh from your preferred hardware (as in building materials) store and put it where the bottom used to be (just glue it in place). If you still want the bottom to mount it somewhere I think the best option would be to cut out part of the bottom (your hardware store can also likely help you with that without you having to purchase the tools) and put some mesh over it. I think natural convection together with it being on its side will be more than good enough to cool anything in there.
Any chance in the future you could enable IDS/IPS on the pfsense/opnsense install and see what throughput you get? That's always my holdup with these smaller dedicated boxes, just the unknown of what you're likely to see with those enabled.
I have the TopTon N6005 unit running OPNsense. My Internet is Comcast Gigabit (rated for 1200Mbps but can go higher to around 1400Mbps.) Without Suricata on WAN interface I get full speed (1200 ~ 1400Mbps). With Suricata enabled and Hyperscan method, I get ~950Mbps. Note: this is a bare metal install, not Proxmox or anything.
yeah I'd love that and wireguard and a handful of pcs stressing it from a switch how does it do where does it drop off is the effective backplane throughput sufficient with some network hopping and and a few rules, etc
@@edd7 Awesome, that's super helpful. I have it running on my end but I'm never sure whether my speeds being less than advertised is due to my line or my firewall. Should probably test the line in without my firewall at some point for comparison now that I think about it. Thanks again!
@@TheDopamin3 Thanks! That's super helpful. I need to do some more testing on my end to compare I think. My speed is generally not what's advertised but it's fast enough that I haven't bothered with testing to figure out where the issue is. That helps suggest it's probably my line and not the firewall.
I was blown away to get the N5105 8GB RAM 128GB SSD model for $188.73 recently and it only took a week to arrive. I'd kinda have rather had the N6005 but the price difference is not worth it. That also worked out cheaper with RAM and storage then if I added them extra to barebones, though granted I'd use better brands then.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo I'm upgrading to Gigabit FTTP on Monday and its over PPPoE so it was really a case of trying to be overkill to be on the safe side, as I also have a couple of OpenVPN instances. But honestly, so long as it handles the PPPoE I'm fine if OpenVPN bottlenecks, especially as I did move my main VPN over to Wireguard. Overall it feels a lot faster than the 7200U I had before especially the web UI. Even if single-threaded it may be slower, those extra cores seem to have helped. Plus its not like any synthetic benchmark is a true measure of how pfSense might behave. There's just so much guesswork given I'm going from 72Mbit to 940Mbit over PPP, so not sure how the load will be. I already had 500Mbit on a second WAN over 5G but that's into another router (as I run L2TP over it to bypass the NAT on the cell network anyway). I also can probably remove a fair bit of policy routing once on FTTP too. Did you check if these newer appliances support dual-channel memory (I'd assume they do) and if that impacts the performance at all?
Thanks for the video Patrick! You mentioned you also just got the 6-port i7 version, I have that one as well (kingnovy version). It seems to be tailored for a 2242 ssd but with an adapter bracket that allows 2280 ssd's but under an angle. Eager to see your review on that unit, cause I had to adjust tdp's in bios and it still runs too hot to my liking (even at idle).
I did not get the chance to try it before flying out again (only 40 hour layover at home between trips this week.) Thermals are something I want to look at specifically.
This is faster than my current firewall with an i3-4330 and lower power consumption. Will be upgrading for sure. Waited so long for something like this instead of all those crappy j1900s they put in everything.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo Unfortunately I'll value the more performance for encryption and IDS/IPS and lots of firewall rules. I have seen your video on that one as well, Excellent videos!
I wish these were USB PD compatible or were 19/20v. I can get so many quality PD chargers or adapt PD chargers to to barrel jack 19v using tiny boards. Oh well, cant win them all. Great video Patrick, it feels good to finally overwhelm a $20 router running OpenWRT!
Thanks Patrick. I've ordered the 5105 from amazon and hope to run pfSense on proxmox. I'd like to see the other side of the boards and a discussion of the com ports.
Which seller on amazon? I'd like to get one of these but don't want to wait weeks/months from overseas, and chance dealing with issues (Been there done that several times). There's several clones of these systems on amazon and ebay that can be here in
I've heard, or read, that running a vpn using open-vpn requires compute power, and I'd like to ask that your reviews of router-ish devices include some info about through-put & power draw while using a consumer vpn. Or, perhaps, make a seperate vpn video discussing general reqs. Thanks, Really surprised this device uses so little power when each port on the cheap switches had more of a bump in draw.
Will be great if AMD can offer something in this * Price * Idle power consumption * Quad 2.5GbE Realm, but with 2 NVMe slots (redundancy), multiple SATA ports (4~12) and ECC RAM support, plus wide input power of 12~19v DC. * M.2 E key WiFi slot (at least 1) And a normal PCIE 1x or maybe 4X slot. That would be amazing. I don't care about size. Even if its micro ATX.
Mendocino is supposed to have RDNA2 graphics, which is overkill for embedded. Somebody just needs to pair AMD's embedded chips (V1000 series) with 2.5GbE, assuming it has the lanes. Or AMD needs to update the connectivity on those chips.
@@concinnus i think mendecino only has 2-3 CUs, i think they wanted RDNA2 for its added acceleratores and better efficiency at low frequencies Also the V1000 chips are 14nm Zen1 based, you should at least look for V2000 7nm Zen2 for better efficiency
@@concinnus I know the product pages are getting terrible(they used to list all this information) Now you have to go to CPUZ or CPU-world. I think AMD still lists it on the product brief PDF but its getting more and more annoying to do my research for my job, i just wish they'd put something up like Intel ARK
On paper, this beats an i5-7200U based device like I have (with 6 ports, 1gig). I'm curious, though, about things like hardware crypto for vpn usage with pf/opensense. Ever consider doing vpn benchmarks? Every time I hear "Atom" I have flashbacks to the Cisco 5506 Atom-based devices and their "I will run until the day my clock stops" hardware bug, which bit me and persuaded me to get into the little fanless boxes--- and avoid Atoms. Love your reviews, btw.
Thanks for your informative video. I am curious as to why get this N6005 unit rather than the J4125 unit you reviewed a few months back. If the main use is for pfsense, is there any benefit in getting a higher power/speed processor? Also, would it be better to run pfsense bare metal or in a proxmox VE in these kinds of boxes? Also, would you consider doing a step by step install and full setup of pfsense for a typical home use scenario please? Thanks.
We have the Proxmox VE with pfSense installation guide using on one of these (I think the J4125) linked in the description. Some want more performance if they are running more VMs on the unit.
@@marcogenovesi8570 Exactly! I bought from Netgate since I run a business from home. I bought the one in this video in May for my friend since he is an individual.
The topton takes like forever to ship.... after a month they still have not shipped it. I also use my own meanwell 12 volt adapters, since I don't know what quality or safety the provided adapters have. the input is 2.5 mm on my units, not 2.1 mm. the good quality adapters that comply with western safety standards usually only come in 2.1 mm but you have adapters that will convert the 2.1 mm to 2.5mm. I cool a 8350u unit with a noctua strapped with tie ribs on the outside, connected to a 5 volt adapter. silent and effective.
@serverthehome I am in a dying need for a bios dump from Topton N6005 unit. I wrote the wrong bios on my unit and it's not booting anymore. Please help!!!
Just be prepared to wait a long time. I ordered the barebones one on 5/24 and it still has not shipped. The seller told me it should ship in 5 days on 6/28/22.
Could you do a video installing the 40mm fan please. I feel it will help tons of people. I had to do a fair amount of research to get the right fan and header. If you did a how to my video it would help a lot of people.
for everyone who want to buy this in 2022 buy the CWWK N5105 V3 or V4 version , v3 and v4 have HDMI and DP and 2 USB next to 4 nics , V3 using intel i225 and V4 using intel i226.
What MAX temperature does the N6005 reached? and how much does it usually hang on routing? I have one on my way would love to have your numbers to compare before deciding if mine has an issue or not.
Hi Patrick, First off thanks for the videos on these systems, the info is very helpful. My question is under Proxmox does MMUIO function works on these systems, as PCIe passthrough ? you don't want the WAN port shared with Proxmox expossed to the WAN.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo Yes this is what i mean. As i noticed that, for example, a AMD 2600 CPU does not support MMUIO, and i heard the X series of AMD does ( like: 2600X, 1600X etc ). It is hard to buy a replacement CPU when it is unclear which CPU does support the function. So i really would like to know before i buy one, if these boxes do support MMUIO. My idea for this box would be Running Proxmox with MMUIO, pfSense VM and a CT with Pi-Hole to handle my internal DNS naming, as i use self signed SSL to my local domain name (local.lan)
Never mind, i found the specs sheet of the CPU and it support VT-x and VT-d (needed for PCIe passthrough and enable the option to use a network port exclusive for a VM )
So for a newb in the PfSense world with prosumer requirements, would you advise either of these or the Netgate 4100? Would be replacing a USG-3 by the way
Is this one worth it over the 5105? I plan on using opnsense with it on a 1gbit connection. Not sure about settings on ids etc yet but I want security to be tight. Money isn't really the issue. Not sure how the power draw is different.
I ordered one with the N6005 but they couldn't source the CPU so the offered a refund or a CPU downgrade for a RAM upgrade. Interestingly they offered to upgrade to 32GB of ram, which is more than you can order and more than the CPU supports according to the intel ark page. So that's going to be interesting when it eventually arrives.
So I ordered the kingnovy barebones model but I am a little confused about which sodimm I am supposed to purchase with regards to pin count, there are three different ones. Is it the 240 pin version? Also, if I am just looking at power consumption, does the nvme drives use less power? I don’t think performance is that important as I am just getting it for the firewall appliance.
I grabbed the TopTon bare-bones version. Two months to ship. Had to put a heat-sink on the NVMe at first, but it seems stable so far. The CPU shows as an "Engineering Sample", which I'm not too cool with. 😶
the psu i got is a rated at 3amp 12v and is what i class has a death adapter, they have shipped a travel plug with a 2 prong psu; it will be going in the bin once the meanwell psu turns up
Thanks for the video. I bought an 8 port 2.5Gb version from qotom. There’s no NVME port, I guess they ran out of PCIe lanes. There’s no atom processor option either (again likely due to the amount of PCIe lanes). Looks like it will pay for itself in 3 years just from the power savings. Who knows how long it will take to arrive though.
sorry, I don't understand, is not better use pfsense in a router Netgate? has a better processor, is made to be a firewall and works all time while Atom architecture is not designed to be turn on 24 hours all days, and has the same price, if you are in your home, with a NETGATE 1100 is enough, and if you have 2,5ghs of otl and use VPN a lot, you can buy a 4100 and is still cheaper and better. I can't see the purpose to use a celeron N6000 !!! really, It's absurd!!!!!
The N6005 is a newer Atom/ E-core architecture than the Atom C3000 that the Netgate units use. These are much less expensive. We have reviewed the Netgate 4100 here ruclips.net/video/8-qT2D5wDD0/видео.html
That looks like a great little unit for the price. The power savings between that and my current pfsense box could cover the cost of the unit before its useful lifespan ended. Based on some quick back on the envelope math. Fyi I'd be really interested in seeing an analysis piece about this IBM z/os mainframe cloud.
15:20 That power supply is terrible! Just look at the power-factor (second number), it is roughly 0.6 while a good PSU should have around 0.8 in the low wattage regime and north of 0.9 with nominal load. I assume this PSU literally does not have any power-factor correction circuit.
My uncle next door has a German Telekom Speedport own brand ISP router (~$180) with 3 same own brand APs and has so many internet issues. Connected full bars but no internet. How would a box like this stack up against his setup in terms of stability?
How would something like this compare to the similarly priced ($370-$400) Asus GT-AX6000? As much as I would like some of the advanced features you get with a roll your own router, I feel that I would rather have the (relative) stability of a fully warranted Asus product with comparable costs that also include Wi-Fi 6 and a trustworthy power supply.
Totally there are folks that would prefer an all-in one. I run 6x APs at home and you can run the WiFi controller software on this, along with better VPN/ IDS. This is more for those who want more than an all-in one unit. Plus, sometimes you just need a fanless PC
@@ServeTheHomeVideo I really do want something like this, for all those reasons, but I just don't think you're going to get reliable firmware updated (ok, you might not get that from Asus either (-; ) and definitely no tech support or warranty for boxes from Ali baba.
I was going to get one of these but after seeing quite a few reviews regarding the high idle temperatures, I'm going to pass. Spotty quality control seems to be a huge issue, unfortunately.
Usually the 1GbE versions use J4125 or older processors. It costs about the same to use i210 1GbE NICs as i225/i226 2.5GbE NICs so the more modern ones use 2.5GbE. Since the 2.5GbE ones are backward compatible with 1GbE, I do not think we will see more i210 versions.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo Thanks. Do you have any links to products? I have been watching for the Supermicro boards since February and haven't seen anything.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo thats why I like you. :) I have one n6005 and one 1165g7. What is good it that you can fiddle with the amount of enabled cores and and "tdp". I settled for 3 cores in the n6005 and 16w(3.3ghz under full load) but im still undecided about the 1165g7, power and heat is too high to cope with 4.7ghz boosts
@@ServeTheHomeVideo hey that is great I can't wait for the review. would 💯 watch a video twice as long where you explain exactly what you would expect to be doing that can get 1165g7 used effectively and min heat solution to not thermal throttle. I'm looking at a k8s control node and pfsense on xcp, a la forbidden router, I wish there were more lanes so I could distribute hyperconverged storage from this. But if I can Passthrough nics I can aggregate to a big freenas with some hba in it. My thought is twice the cost twice the perf but its not atom and will have use for longer. 64gb often pairs better with 8 threads too
I cannot wait to get over this rediculous 2.5Gbps hump.. this tech is 10 years overdue and the #1 reason 10Gbps is still expensive. PCI-e 7th gen was just announced. We are moving into PCI-e 5th gen.. NVMe drive speeds are skyrocketing. Datacenters are already far beyond 100Gbps... Even MUCH slower Generation 1 NMVe drives are still capable of speeds exceeding 10Gbps. Why are we so behind with networking? Investing into a slow 2.5Gbps solution is temporary at best and in the longrun will cost you more than just biting the bullet and get into 10Gbps. Remember when we had to pull all that COAX cable and replace it with CAT 5? Then we had to replace that CAT5 with CAT5e for gigabit. Switching to 10Gbps requires CAT 6.. stay in the past or get moving with technology. 1Gbps is far outdated and a huge bottleneck and 2.5Gbps with overhead is barely even any improvement compared with NVMe speeds. Cheap 10Gbps is coming, but the longer we fart around with 2.5Gbps and even 5Gbps is the longer we delay that from happening.
I'm not a fan of 2.5Gbps either BUT there are billions of RJ45/CAT5 or 5E ports installed with millions of miles of cable ... same question why we don't have 220/240V or even 380V to the home ... would be so much better!
@servethehome, It seems that the I225V units are being replaced by I226V units. On Ali sellers are giving discount on I225 to get rid of their stock. By the way, it would be great to have a comparison between I225V and I226V chips.
I got Topton with N6005. Getting stuck on black screen when installing Proxmox. I don't have much experience with Linux but it is probably related to drivers. Can someone help or share their experience? I know Proxmox can be installed on Debian Buster but I got stuck again because Debian does not have Intel i225 drivers.
The 7.x Proxmox train we show in these reviews installed without adding drivers. Maybe go into the BIOS and double check things like virtualization are turned on.
Euhhh.. OK, so suppose I get a 2.5 G router & firewall. What about my switches? 2.5 / 5 / 10 G VLAN capable switches are $500 each. So if I have 1 8 port switch behind my router and then 4 switches, one for each room in my house, to connect wifi access points and wired clients to, I am looking at 5x $500 on top of the router. So don't make it look like the router is the main cost component inan upgrade above 1G.
Does anyone knows what is the input voltage range allowed on those? I imagine there is some kind of regulator for the CPU inside the box. 12V regulator are also not delivering a precise 12V. Wondering if this could be wire directly to a 12v car battery while the alternator is running! Thanks for anyone that have a clue on this as I just search for 1 hour and no one mention this!
modern car charging systems will supply up to 14.4v (or more) and the batteries are usually closer to 12.5v while the vehicle is running and not charging.
I see this and other intel CPU product in Aliexpress. Would pfsense/OPNsense run more effectively (faster and less bottleneck) with i7 1165G7 compared to N6005? It's for the home use with a gaming PC, a NAS, and about 20 wiress connections. Thanks. By the way, I have XR700, netgear. Paid whole bunch for it, and it's slow and can't maintain the DL speed.
It would be really interesting to see a comparison between a typical ISP provided router, the lower end version of these, this higher end version, and a commercial grade router, showing what real world differences you can expect and how much benefit there is to upgrading your router performancewise.
I'd love to see this. I've been eyeing these 4x2.5gbe devices as a potential replacement for a pretty average Asus router, but really have no idea how they'd actually compare in day-to-day usage.
It’s easy.
Most commercial routers only have 1 or 2 CPUs and 256-512 MB memory and 1-2 GB storage and a super stripped down OS.
That is fine for a regular setup.
If you want services like IPS, VPN, Proxy, etc.
you need more of everything.
Basically, unless you have the need and knowledge, stay with the commercial products.
pretty good idea!
@@pepeshopping I partly disagree. As an interested calculation/backend developer that's not doing much on the networking front, I want to learn more about networking as a hobby. I think there's a market for people who want capable hardware to 'grow into', within reason of course. I've been eyeing a number of different networking devices and it's a bit tricky to pick the best toy, one that'll keep me busy for a long time.
This is a very good idea. Good job 😁
"And because this is STH we don't just have one ..." - I love this channel :D
Patrick "many people have WAN speeds of greater than 1Gbps"
Me * crying with a 2Mbps WAN connection in rural-ish Germany *
Me in SoCal: Speed isn't an issue, basic internet is 200/30Mbps, but (and it's a big butt) it's in a zero competition area so we have to pay US$250/month.
I just hit the BUY button on one of these this morning but found that the 6x2.5Gb port version was ~$20 more. After coupons ended up being $261 all done. Then this review drops! Thanks for confirming that the unit is solid!
We have had the 6x 2.5GbE on order for over a month. The 6x 2.5GbE w/ the Intel Core i7 just arrived though.
I'm glad these are out with the 6105 now - this is more of what I'm looking at as a Proxmox and/or Kubernetes host for a small home lab scenario. A few of these, or maybe a couple more, and there's loads of fun in the making.. :)
I think most will prefer the N5105 over this. If you want a bunch, a bigger Ryzen system with next steps virtualization is also good
I ordered a Qotom Barebone System (Q750G5 5X Intel I225-V 2.5G LAN CPU J4125 Quad Core 2.0 GHz - with 5 - 2.5Gbe Ethernet Ports) from Amazon on 8/10/2022 and received it today 8/13/2022. Shipped all the way from China. No shipping problems here. When I opened up the box to install the memory and ssd, I found an 8 GB stick of RAM. That was a special surprise. I have installed OPNsense. Thanks for all of the info on these small computers. It made me brave enough to make my network router.
One big drawback is non-exsistent firmware/bios updates. I used one of this small Chinese 4-NIC boxes for a while and it had some horrible UEFI/ACPI bugs that required various workarounds. It also ran quite hot.
They seem to use regular AMI BIOS, so modding it/running the latest packages should be as simple as running UBU on top of a dump. It shouldn't be to hard to make at least an updated BIOS and keep it in the forums for the community.
@@TA-mx3zm bios modding is a bit of a niche abilty
@@TA-mx3zm can you recommend a source for updates?
cwwk version have updates , they release 3 updates so far .
@@MXG000 please more details, whats cwwwk???
da heck! N6005?! Goodness, Almost pulled the trigger on a N4000 series. love it! keep it raining manufacturers.
I’ve been waiting for your n6005 version of these for over a month now. I’m really happy now
I think most people will prefer the N5105 to these, especially since they ship like a month faster than the N6005's.
If you think you need a fan on the Kingnovy unit I would recommend this:
Since the Kingnovy unit can sit on its side, you can do so, remove the bottom and go buy some cheap mesh from your preferred hardware (as in building materials) store and put it where the bottom used to be (just glue it in place).
If you still want the bottom to mount it somewhere I think the best option would be to cut out part of the bottom (your hardware store can also likely help you with that without you having to purchase the tools) and put some mesh over it.
I think natural convection together with it being on its side will be more than good enough to cool anything in there.
Any chance in the future you could enable IDS/IPS on the pfsense/opnsense install and see what throughput you get? That's always my holdup with these smaller dedicated boxes, just the unknown of what you're likely to see with those enabled.
Any modern quad cpu would do IPS easily.
I have the TopTon N6005 unit running OPNsense. My Internet is Comcast Gigabit (rated for 1200Mbps but can go higher to around 1400Mbps.)
Without Suricata on WAN interface I get full speed (1200 ~ 1400Mbps). With Suricata enabled and Hyperscan method, I get ~950Mbps. Note: this is a bare metal install, not Proxmox or anything.
yeah I'd love that and wireguard and a handful of pcs stressing it from a switch how does it do where does it drop off is the effective backplane throughput sufficient with some network hopping and and a few rules, etc
@@edd7 Awesome, that's super helpful. I have it running on my end but I'm never sure whether my speeds being less than advertised is due to my line or my firewall. Should probably test the line in without my firewall at some point for comparison now that I think about it. Thanks again!
@@TheDopamin3 Thanks! That's super helpful. I need to do some more testing on my end to compare I think. My speed is generally not what's advertised but it's fast enough that I haven't bothered with testing to figure out where the issue is. That helps suggest it's probably my line and not the firewall.
I was blown away to get the N5105 8GB RAM 128GB SSD model for $188.73 recently and it only took a week to arrive. I'd kinda have rather had the N6005 but the price difference is not worth it.
That also worked out cheaper with RAM and storage then if I added them extra to barebones, though granted I'd use better brands then.
Personally, I think for most people the N5105 is a better option.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo I'm upgrading to Gigabit FTTP on Monday and its over PPPoE so it was really a case of trying to be overkill to be on the safe side, as I also have a couple of OpenVPN instances. But honestly, so long as it handles the PPPoE I'm fine if OpenVPN bottlenecks, especially as I did move my main VPN over to Wireguard.
Overall it feels a lot faster than the 7200U I had before especially the web UI. Even if single-threaded it may be slower, those extra cores seem to have helped. Plus its not like any synthetic benchmark is a true measure of how pfSense might behave.
There's just so much guesswork given I'm going from 72Mbit to 940Mbit over PPP, so not sure how the load will be. I already had 500Mbit on a second WAN over 5G but that's into another router (as I run L2TP over it to bypass the NAT on the cell network anyway).
I also can probably remove a fair bit of policy routing once on FTTP too.
Did you check if these newer appliances support dual-channel memory (I'd assume they do) and if that impacts the performance at all?
@Patrick it's amazing how you reply and engage with your viewers. Thanks
Surprising, buying a business grade dedicated UPS that is rack mounted has been one of my best investments through the ages.
Given Project TMM seems to have reached a lull, can we have a recap of the key lessons learned and best PCs for different use cases?
Thanks for the video Patrick! You mentioned you also just got the 6-port i7 version, I have that one as well (kingnovy version). It seems to be tailored for a 2242 ssd but with an adapter bracket that allows 2280 ssd's but under an angle. Eager to see your review on that unit, cause I had to adjust tdp's in bios and it still runs too hot to my liking (even at idle).
I did not get the chance to try it before flying out again (only 40 hour layover at home between trips this week.) Thermals are something I want to look at specifically.
This is faster than my current firewall with an i3-4330 and lower power consumption. Will be upgrading for sure. Waited so long for something like this instead of all those crappy j1900s they put in everything.
There are 4x 2.5GbE J4125 boxes that we did reviews/ videos of previously. I have to say I really do like that solution since it is much lower power.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo Unfortunately I'll value the more performance for encryption and IDS/IPS and lots of firewall rules. I have seen your video on that one as well, Excellent videos!
I wish these were USB PD compatible or were 19/20v. I can get so many quality PD chargers or adapt PD chargers to to barrel jack 19v using tiny boards. Oh well, cant win them all. Great video Patrick, it feels good to finally overwhelm a $20 router running OpenWRT!
blue background reminds me of blue doors.... yep, i miss the blue doors.
nice review btw :)
I do too. :-/
Thanks Patrick. I've ordered the 5105 from amazon and hope to run pfSense on proxmox. I'd like to see the other side of the boards
and a discussion of the com ports.
Which seller on amazon?
I'd like to get one of these but don't want to wait weeks/months from overseas, and chance dealing with issues (Been there done that several times). There's several clones of these systems on amazon and ebay that can be here in
@@FragEightyfive the vendor was Hunsn. While it did come from overseas, it was here (PA, US) in under two weeks.
One day you're going to exclaim "THIS!" at the start of the video so hard your head explodes.
Deploying those to multiple site will be difficult - since you don't really know exactly which ones ALI delivers ... great review nonetheless!
Hi @ServeTheHome, great review as usual. Just a note that your chapter markers on this video are off.
Thanks. Should have been fixed last night. I only slept 90 minutes on the red-eye and missed this.
I've heard, or read, that running a vpn using open-vpn requires compute power, and I'd like to ask that your reviews of router-ish devices include some info about through-put & power draw while using a consumer vpn. Or, perhaps, make a seperate vpn video discussing general reqs. Thanks,
Really surprised this device uses so little power when each port on the cheap switches had more of a bump in draw.
I'm hoping AMD's Mendecino APU is going to be targeted for this market, i'd really like 4 cores with SMT for a firewall.
Will be great if AMD can offer something in this
* Price
* Idle power consumption
* Quad 2.5GbE
Realm,
but with 2 NVMe slots (redundancy), multiple SATA ports (4~12) and ECC RAM support, plus wide input power of 12~19v DC.
* M.2 E key WiFi slot (at least 1)
And a normal PCIE 1x or maybe 4X slot. That would be amazing.
I don't care about size. Even if its micro ATX.
Mendocino is supposed to have RDNA2 graphics, which is overkill for embedded. Somebody just needs to pair AMD's embedded chips (V1000 series) with 2.5GbE, assuming it has the lanes. Or AMD needs to update the connectivity on those chips.
@@concinnus i think mendecino only has 2-3 CUs, i think they wanted RDNA2 for its added acceleratores and better efficiency at low frequencies
Also the V1000 chips are 14nm Zen1 based, you should at least look for V2000 7nm Zen2 for better efficiency
@@denvera1g1 Huh, you're right. Coulda sworn I saw they were on 7nm, though not from AMD's pages, which don't list lithography.
@@concinnus I know the product pages are getting terrible(they used to list all this information) Now you have to go to CPUZ or CPU-world.
I think AMD still lists it on the product brief PDF but its getting more and more annoying to do my research for my job, i just wish they'd put something up like Intel ARK
I bought the N6005 at rmb950 on the second-hand market and it was almost as good as new. I would like to see your follow-up on N6005, thank you.
Would you be willing to do a video or article doing a larger comparison of these newer models to the previous generation like the j4125 and j5005?
I talked about the J4125, N5105, and N5095 at the end of the main site article on these N6005 machines.
I've got a N5105 barebones for USD150 and it has much more CPU power than most people need.
Why wold someone need N6005 and justify the premium?
I agree the N5105 is better for most. Still, I wanted to get the N6005 just to get data on it that we could share.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo I've got N5105 over J4125 because of your data, thank you! Love your work, thx for using your time to answer me ❤️
On paper, this beats an i5-7200U based device like I have (with 6 ports, 1gig). I'm curious, though, about things like hardware crypto for vpn usage with pf/opensense. Ever consider doing vpn benchmarks? Every time I hear "Atom" I have flashbacks to the Cisco 5506 Atom-based devices and their "I will run until the day my clock stops" hardware bug, which bit me and persuaded me to get into the little fanless boxes--- and avoid Atoms. Love your reviews, btw.
This is not really an atom product line. The processor is just Pentium Silver N6005. AES-NI is supported
Nice video.This is a very stable model but sounds a little big.May you try our R86S tiny design but strong!
Which Power Supply you can recommend then?
Thanks for your informative video. I am curious as to why get this N6005 unit rather than the J4125 unit you reviewed a few months back. If the main use is for pfsense, is there any benefit in getting a higher power/speed processor? Also, would it be better to run pfsense bare metal or in a proxmox VE in these kinds of boxes?
Also, would you consider doing a step by step install and full setup of pfsense for a typical home use scenario please? Thanks.
We have the Proxmox VE with pfSense installation guide using on one of these (I think the J4125) linked in the description. Some want more performance if they are running more VMs on the unit.
Stick it Netgate and your exorbitant prices.
someone has to pay for the software
@@marcogenovesi8570 Exactly! I bought from Netgate since I run a business from home. I bought the one in this video in May for my friend since he is an individual.
The topton takes like forever to ship.... after a month they still have not shipped it. I also use my own meanwell 12 volt adapters, since I don't know what quality or safety the provided adapters have. the input is 2.5 mm on my units, not 2.1 mm. the good quality adapters that comply with western safety standards usually only come in 2.1 mm but you have adapters that will convert the 2.1 mm to 2.5mm. I cool a 8350u unit with a noctua strapped with tie ribs on the outside, connected to a 5 volt adapter. silent and effective.
Yes. I think the N5105 is shipping faster and is better for many.
Can VMWare run on these systems? Where can we get the right network drivers?
Will just did a piece on this earlier this week: www.servethehome.com/topton-fanless-intel-core-i7-1165g7-box-running-vmware-esxi-veeam-and-pfsense/
@serverthehome I am in a dying need for a bios dump from Topton N6005 unit. I wrote the wrong bios on my unit and it's not booting anymore. Please help!!!
Just be prepared to wait a long time. I ordered the barebones one on 5/24 and it still has not shipped. The seller told me it should ship in 5 days on 6/28/22.
Very much so. The Topton was ~40 days. The 6x 2.5GbE model is many weeks already. I think they take orders well before they have units to ship.
Could you do a video installing the 40mm fan please. I feel it will help tons of people. I had to do a fair amount of research to get the right fan and header. If you did a how to my video it would help a lot of people.
The Intel pentium Silver N6005 is not an Atom series processor! The last Atom was the Z3590 released Q3 2015.
for everyone who want to buy this in 2022 buy the CWWK N5105 V3 or V4 version , v3 and v4 have HDMI and DP and 2 USB next to 4 nics , V3 using intel i225 and V4 using intel i226.
What MAX temperature does the N6005 reached? and how much does it usually hang on routing? I have one on my way would love to have your numbers to compare before deciding if mine has an issue or not.
60 C full load, they use powerlimit on CPU
Hi Patrick, First off thanks for the videos on these systems, the info is very helpful.
My question is under Proxmox does MMUIO function works on these systems, as PCIe passthrough ? you don't want the WAN port shared with Proxmox expossed to the WAN.
Like this? www.servethehome.com/how-to-pass-through-pcie-nics-with-proxmox-ve-on-intel-and-amd/
@@ServeTheHomeVideo Yes this is what i mean. As i noticed that, for example, a AMD 2600 CPU does not support MMUIO, and i heard the X series of AMD does ( like: 2600X, 1600X etc ).
It is hard to buy a replacement CPU when it is unclear which CPU does support the function.
So i really would like to know before i buy one, if these boxes do support MMUIO.
My idea for this box would be Running Proxmox with MMUIO, pfSense VM and a CT with Pi-Hole to handle my internal DNS naming, as i use self signed SSL to my local domain name (local.lan)
Never mind, i found the specs sheet of the CPU and it support VT-x and VT-d (needed for PCIe passthrough and enable the option to use a network port exclusive for a VM )
Unfortunately, N6005 sata interface is SATA2 not SATA3.The Mini PIC-E is also not an M.2 key
So for a newb in the PfSense world with prosumer requirements, would you advise either of these or the Netgate 4100?
Would be replacing a USG-3 by the way
Is this one worth it over the 5105? I plan on using opnsense with it on a 1gbit connection. Not sure about settings on ids etc yet but I want security to be tight. Money isn't really the issue. Not sure how the power draw is different.
I ordered one with the N6005 but they couldn't source the CPU so the offered a refund or a CPU downgrade for a RAM upgrade. Interestingly they offered to upgrade to 32GB of ram, which is more than you can order and more than the CPU supports according to the intel ark page. So that's going to be interesting when it eventually arrives.
They do support 32GB, but are finicky about RAM.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo It arrived, and indeed came with 32GB of RAM and has worked fine (so far).
So I ordered the kingnovy barebones model but I am a little confused about which sodimm I am supposed to purchase with regards to pin count, there are three different ones. Is it the 240 pin version? Also, if I am just looking at power consumption, does the nvme drives use less power? I don’t think performance is that important as I am just getting it for the firewall appliance.
DDR4 SODIMM, aim for non-ECC DDR4-2933 or 2666. On the SSD, 2.5" SATA will likely be cooler
I grabbed the TopTon bare-bones version. Two months to ship.
Had to put a heat-sink on the NVMe at first, but it seems stable so far.
The CPU shows as an "Engineering Sample", which I'm not too cool with. 😶
Greg, under Windows, Linux, or looking at the physical chip says ES? We have heard a few saying that.
Finally got my unit from Topton, it looks like your kinvoy one on the sides but the bottom plate has the cut outs you have here
the psu i got is a rated at 3amp 12v and is what i class has a death adapter, they have shipped a travel plug with a 2 prong psu; it will be going in the bin once the meanwell psu turns up
They had these with tigerlake mobile chips as well
The 6x 2.5GbE Core i7 one just arrived.
Thanks for the video. I bought an 8 port 2.5Gb version from qotom. There’s no NVME port, I guess they ran out of PCIe lanes. There’s no atom processor option either (again likely due to the amount of PCIe lanes). Looks like it will pay for itself in 3 years just from the power savings.
Who knows how long it will take to arrive though.
I got the Topton unit, it is working great with pfsense, Can you recommend a source for BIOS updates?
Have you considered using the RS232 output on your power meter to create your power consumption overlay?
Yes we have used this for years to log (we have several of these Extechs), but I somewhat like just showing people.
sorry, I don't understand, is not better use pfsense in a router Netgate? has a better processor, is made to be a firewall and works all time while Atom architecture is not designed to be turn on 24 hours all days, and has the same price, if you are in your home, with a NETGATE 1100 is enough, and if you have 2,5ghs of otl and use VPN a lot, you can buy a 4100 and is still cheaper and better. I can't see the purpose to use a celeron N6000 !!! really, It's absurd!!!!!
The N6005 is a newer Atom/ E-core architecture than the Atom C3000 that the Netgate units use. These are much less expensive. We have reviewed the Netgate 4100 here ruclips.net/video/8-qT2D5wDD0/видео.html
Great review as usual.Did you test if these can really support 64gb of memory? Also do you plan to test the 6 lan version?
Intel specs for the Pentium Silver N6005 say it supports only up to 16GB so it probably won't
I understand the intel spec but some are sold with 32gb and spec the max as 64gb on Ali.
@@marcogenovesi8570 tbf there often is a difference between what Intel said is possible and what really is possible
@@p3chv0gel22 dunno, all the times I tried to put more RAM than supported in the CPU spec it either doesn't see it beyond its max, or it is unstable
Only went up to 32GB here. The sellers say they can hit 64GB. Then again, 64GB with a 4C Atom is hugely overkill.
Thanks!
Would you recommend this for setting up OPNSense as my home router. My edgerouter X is struggling with symmetrical gigabit
how do you know these are safe to use and do not have any backdoors or vulnerabilities?
That looks like a great little unit for the price. The power savings between that and my current pfsense box could cover the cost of the unit before its useful lifespan ended. Based on some quick back on the envelope math.
Fyi I'd be really interested in seeing an analysis piece about this IBM z/os mainframe cloud.
I think the next server analysis piece is more going to be Arm v. AMD v. Intel next-gen server CPU design philosophies
@@ServeTheHomeVideo that makes more sense. The IBM offering seems pretty niche.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo I liked the article on the hpe arm box
What system do you use to install Windows VM? Esxi, PVE, or Unraid, how do you solve N6005 video card passthrough
15:20 That power supply is terrible!
Just look at the power-factor (second number), it is roughly 0.6 while a good PSU should have around 0.8 in the low wattage regime and north of 0.9 with nominal load.
I assume this PSU literally does not have any power-factor correction circuit.
@ServerTheHome, does anyone know where I can find a manual for the product and what are the commands to get to the bios?
What is the difference in throughout for wireguard on J4125 vs this N6105?
Good question, my j4125 has been rock solid for over a year now
My uncle next door has a German Telekom Speedport own brand ISP router (~$180) with 3 same own brand APs and has so many internet issues. Connected full bars but no internet. How would a box like this stack up against his setup in terms of stability?
i want this in mini itx form without all the ethernet ports, just 1 is enough, gigabyte supposed to have one, but its sold nowhere.
How would something like this compare to the similarly priced ($370-$400) Asus GT-AX6000? As much as I would like some of the advanced features you get with a roll your own router, I feel that I would rather have the (relative) stability of a fully warranted Asus product with comparable costs that also include Wi-Fi 6 and a trustworthy power supply.
Totally there are folks that would prefer an all-in one. I run 6x APs at home and you can run the WiFi controller software on this, along with better VPN/ IDS. This is more for those who want more than an all-in one unit. Plus, sometimes you just need a fanless PC
@@ServeTheHomeVideo I really do want something like this, for all those reasons, but I just don't think you're going to get reliable firmware updated (ok, you might not get that from Asus either (-; ) and definitely no tech support or warranty for boxes from Ali baba.
Thin Clients is where its at
I was going to get one of these but after seeing quite a few reviews regarding the high idle temperatures, I'm going to pass. Spotty quality control seems to be a huge issue, unfortunately.
I think the issue rely on the bad power block. I bought a much better one for 17 euro on Amazon and idle is now around 5 to 6w (N5105 with 4x i225V).
do you have a link to these units?
When I go to Ali to look at this item it shows in the shipment advertisement for EU/RU/UK. How does that impact me being in the USA? Thx in Advance.
Not sure if I want to trade my NSA backdoor for a potential PLA backdoor
I see these models are for 2.5Gb internet. Do they have any for Gig internet
Usually the 1GbE versions use J4125 or older processors. It costs about the same to use i210 1GbE NICs as i225/i226 2.5GbE NICs so the more modern ones use 2.5GbE. Since the 2.5GbE ones are backward compatible with 1GbE, I do not think we will see more i210 versions.
Thanks for the great video. You mention the Xeon d 1700. I can't seem to find one anywhere. Are they available?
Just starting to become more available on that line. Embedded is SLOW to roll out products.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo Thanks. Do you have any links to products? I have been watching for the Supermicro boards since February and haven't seen anything.
Im gonna get fttp soon with 1000mbs speeds and want to know will this handle the traffic fine i know it has 2.5gb ports but just double checking
Hi, please which website to use for update bios or download driver ? thanks in advance
You know they have a 1165g7 aswell?
Easily twice as fast and feels real fast but the case cannot keep with the heat.
Just arrived and the 6x 2.5gbe one
@@ServeTheHomeVideo thats why I like you. :)
I have one n6005 and one 1165g7. What is good it that you can fiddle with the amount of enabled cores and and "tdp".
I settled for 3 cores in the n6005 and 16w(3.3ghz under full load) but im still undecided about the 1165g7, power and heat is too high to cope with 4.7ghz boosts
@@ServeTheHomeVideo hey that is great I can't wait for the review. would 💯 watch a video twice as long where you explain exactly what you would expect to be doing that can get 1165g7 used effectively and min heat solution to not thermal throttle. I'm looking at a k8s control node and pfsense on xcp, a la forbidden router, I wish there were more lanes so I could distribute hyperconverged storage from this. But if I can Passthrough nics I can aggregate to a big freenas with some hba in it. My thought is twice the cost twice the perf but its not atom and will have use for longer. 64gb often pairs better with 8 threads too
How much watts the 1165g7 consumes on idle?
@@Jorvs the appliance consumes about 18w if i recall correctly
Something like this with 4 x NVMe slots would be truly excellent. Proxmox, 4 x 2 TB NVMe drives, Raidz-10 = 3.5 TB storage. Gimme gimme!
Not enough PCIe lanes in these for that many lanes. You need to move up the stack for that much connectivity.
The processor can't keep up with that amount of speed
I cannot wait to get over this rediculous 2.5Gbps hump.. this tech is 10 years overdue and the #1 reason 10Gbps is still expensive. PCI-e 7th gen was just announced. We are moving into PCI-e 5th gen.. NVMe drive speeds are skyrocketing. Datacenters are already far beyond 100Gbps... Even MUCH slower Generation 1 NMVe drives are still capable of speeds exceeding 10Gbps. Why are we so behind with networking? Investing into a slow 2.5Gbps solution is temporary at best and in the longrun will cost you more than just biting the bullet and get into 10Gbps. Remember when we had to pull all that COAX cable and replace it with CAT 5? Then we had to replace that CAT5 with CAT5e for gigabit. Switching to 10Gbps requires CAT 6.. stay in the past or get moving with technology. 1Gbps is far outdated and a huge bottleneck and 2.5Gbps with overhead is barely even any improvement compared with NVMe speeds. Cheap 10Gbps is coming, but the longer we fart around with 2.5Gbps and even 5Gbps is the longer we delay that from happening.
I'm not a fan of 2.5Gbps either BUT there are billions of RJ45/CAT5 or 5E ports installed with millions of miles of cable ... same question why we don't have 220/240V or even 380V to the home ... would be so much better!
@@leeroyjenkins0 Wut...
Since these are Chinese devices, does anyone checked whether they contain any backdoors etc? I need to trust these to be used as my main fw.
He said unit
@servethehome, It seems that the I225V units are being replaced by I226V units. On Ali sellers are giving discount on I225 to get rid of their stock.
By the way, it would be great to have a comparison between I225V and I226V chips.
Yea, a bummer indeed since we have a few in-progress. The N5095 one did not even get a video.
I got Topton with N6005. Getting stuck on black screen when installing Proxmox. I don't have much experience with Linux but it is probably related to drivers. Can someone help or share their experience? I know Proxmox can be installed on Debian Buster but I got stuck again because Debian does not have Intel i225 drivers.
The 7.x Proxmox train we show in these reviews installed without adding drivers. Maybe go into the BIOS and double check things like virtualization are turned on.
No love for Vyos : /
You should have got the 6 port n6005
It has been on order for over a month. The 12W 6x 2.5GbE Core i7 unit just arrived (finally)
there is no intel atom N6005 cpu...it's a pentium series!
Saying "Intel Pentium Silver N6005" 100x was too long. Atom lets folks know they are E-cores not P-cores.
these things are available on amazon.
usually chinese sellers that ship from china, so still the same thing
Euhhh.. OK, so suppose I get a 2.5 G router & firewall. What about my switches? 2.5 / 5 / 10 G VLAN capable switches are $500 each. So if I have 1 8 port switch behind my router and then 4 switches, one for each room in my house, to connect wifi access points and wired clients to, I am looking at 5x $500 on top of the router. So don't make it look like the router is the main cost component inan upgrade above 1G.
$227 seems pretty steep.
Can anyone point me to a video showing how to restrict internet access to few websites / IP address using pfsense?
Does anyone knows what is the input voltage range allowed on those? I imagine there is some kind of regulator for the CPU inside the box. 12V regulator are also not delivering a precise 12V. Wondering if this could be wire directly to a 12v car battery while the alternator is running! Thanks for anyone that have a clue on this as I just search for 1 hour and no one mention this!
modern car charging systems will supply up to 14.4v (or more) and the batteries are usually closer to 12.5v while the vehicle is running and not charging.
do you recommend the unit with i7 CPU?
Still working on the video for that one, but it is not my favorite. Too hot.
cellular companies came up with 2.5 Gbps, 5 Gbps :\ where is 10 Gbps for home?
I see this and other intel CPU product in Aliexpress. Would pfsense/OPNsense run more effectively (faster and less bottleneck) with i7 1165G7 compared to N6005? It's for the home use with a gaming PC, a NAS, and about 20 wiress connections. Thanks.
By the way, I have XR700, netgear. Paid whole bunch for it, and it's slow and can't maintain the DL speed.
Its not Atom.
anyone ever see a mini pc like this, with more than 4x 2.5gbit ports?
We have reviews of the 6x 2.5GbE versions coming.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo Great! Looking very much forward to that!
2.5 GBe should now be the lowest standard.... 1GBe should be retired simple....
Processor is shit
Yea I dont have $400 to spend.