Soooooooooo many people are still checking out this video! If you liked it, I've made several more since (which are better imo) and am now back to regularly uploading! Here is my Ace Attorney playlist: ruclips.net/p/PLyUe6D7RSNAYPn2tLQpyaDT2a2HkUqs4z
@@junkoenoshima2756 I like what big top did with Franziska, I feel like it really rounded her character a lot plus we find out about her true motive and how much she cares about edgeworth. But, good god, was the clown pedophilia really necessary
The only part of Turnabout Big Top I liked was the ending. Acro’s story genuinely made me sad and I felt emotions when the case ended. Recipe for Turnabout just frustrated me, especially that everybody believed that Furio Tigre could possibly be Phoenix. It was utterly ridiculous in my opinion.
Remember, Gotod can't see the color red and the judge is an idiot who can't do his job without the prosecution yelling at him to do so because he is nearly the prosecutions puppet until the defense can prove otherwise.
@@danwithnoplan2584 same thing with Larry and: Kay Maya (when she was 17) Ema (when she was 16) Not Pearl exactly but he said something like "Never date 2 girls with the same name" Trucy There's more but I'm not going to bother
for me, third cases were always an escape from the main plotline, it wasnt related to any of the recurring characters involved in the game and it served as a reminder that phoenix defended cases other than those which personally involved him or his friends, making phoenix's career a tad more realistic than what it would have been without the third cases.
Trials and Tribulations plays on this very well by planting the fact that Godot can't see red and that his mask glows in the dark at the end of an otherwise unconnected case and one that people are perhaps poised to overlook due to third case syndrome, so you only remember it when it suddenly comes to light in the final case.
You did a great job with this video! Also, here's a cool fact that kind of gets lost in localization: The whole tiger motif (and loud shirt) with Furio Tigre is meant as a contrast to Phoenix; particularly his Japanese name, Ryuuichi, which has the kanji for "dragon" 龍 (ryuu) in his name, and the tiger vs dragon is a recurring motif in Japanese culture, and is used for rivalries quite often in Japanese fiction
@@CalebCoolman Oftentimes, but not always, when phonetically adapting Japanese pronunciation to English (often called "romanji"), when an extended vowel sound is represented, it'll be displayed as an additional instance of this vowel (in this case ryuu) but it could also be represented as ryū, which is probably what you're more used to seeing
"What's this girl's name?" Dude I immediately shouted "Penny Nichols" like it was some sort of Who's That Pokemon, I loved her interactions with Maya, Turnabout Samurai was one of the best cases in the series imo
To me, the circus theme felt almost tragic, as if all of the incidents at the circus had changed the performers in some way, but it felt strange that acro meant to kill Regina, a 16 year old child.
Idk, it would probably weigh on you pretty damn hard if an accident that was caused by her essentially killed your brother and put you in a wheelchair, only to have her act like nothing is wrong at all... lol
i kind of also feel like that case highlights how the characters handle grief. theres parallels between franziska and acro trying to get revenge for their sibling and theres regina and phoenix who try to avoid talking about their respective losses. one could also say reginas naïvety reflects how phoenix himself used to be naïve as a college student (they kind of cry the same haha). it certainly isnt my favourite case but i do think people made it out to be more egregious than it actually is.
@@moodypear well said. I never drew those parallels. Something I also like about it is that there's characters that hate Max and would probably want him in jaol anyway even if he didn't do it. Phoenix even says when you first meet Max something like "Should I really defend this guy?". But just goes to show, the truth is important above all else. Even if some think he should get locked up anyway, he really shouldn't if he didn't commit the crime.
I’ve always thought the case would work a lot better if Regina weren’t 16. Not just bc of the love triangle, but bc the whole thing with her naivety and brushing off what happened would land a lot differently if she were older, like 18-20. A child being childish is nothing new, like how would you expect a 15-16 year old to handle it? We don’t expect the same maturity from them as we do adults, even just newly-turned ones. The story of her opening her eyes to the reality of the situation and learning the consequences of her actions just feel more compelling if she were a young adult instead, imo
I am very strongly against the notion of "filler" cases, at least in the original Triology. Before I follow up on why I want to let you know that this is a good video,; you clearly put the effort into it man, and a lot of the points you bring up are very valid like the investigations being long or the love triangle being creepy, I just take issue with the "no plot relevance" argument in particular. It is true that the first Ace Attorney games are visual novels, but it would be a mistake to say they're structured like your regular story. There's no three-act structure, most characters are non-recurrent and there's not really a main story to follow at all. I think I can safely state without being controversial that Ace Attorney's structure is episodic, each case being a self-contained story about a different murder trial. I think a lot of the argument for calling Ace Attorney a serialized novel is the confusion between the terms "episodic" and "lack of continuity". Ace Attorney follows an episodic formula, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have continuity. Characters develop and learn things, they have arcs, facts, and notions from past chapters can come back and become relevant again without the need for repetition. But the fact that there are things in Ace Attorney that develop over the chapters, like the rivalry between Phoenix and his prosecutors, or the different themes of the series of believing in the client, and if truth is more important than victory, doesn't mean that it's fair to call it a serialized story divided by chapters. Instead of "The story of Miles Edgeworth quitting prosecution in 5 chapters", a more accurate way to represent the first Ace Attorney game is "5 different stories that also develop Edgeworth to quite prosecution". Do you see what I mean by this? And under this different narrative interpretation of the Ace Attorney games, you can see why "this chapter has no plot relevance" stops being a flaw and becomes just a natural thing for a chapter to be. So with this, a chapter doesn't need to justify its own existence, it just exists, it justifies itself. Telling the story is enough reason to tell the story in the first place, it's just storytelling for the sake of it, fun for the sake of fun, no fancy literature jargon being thrown around. So the argument of "Chapter 3 can be removed from the story"'s response is nothing else than a "So what". I can actually accept that argument in the third game, (Conveniently, the example you used), which clearly has an overarching narrative about Dhalia, Phoenix, Mia, and Armando. But even in that game, I wouldn't say a case that breaks away from that story is a flaw,: Cases 2 and 3 are stories that stand on their own, it's more the late game that decides to pick up where chapter 1 left it and throw a couple twists and curveballs, you know? Anyways I don't know if you take the time to read comments or not, and I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just bringing up another way to read the Ace Attorney narrative structure that is equally valid, I'd say more accurate to the game's spirit, and that explains the existence of chapter 3s (Which are, by the way, pretty good). Not everything needs to be development and continuity, sometimes games just want to be games and tell stories. Great video, man! Keep up the good work.
I couldn't agree more. Thank you for this comment ! Before going on the AA subreddit or watching RUclips videos, I wasn't even thinking about Edgeworth's actions in term of character arc or about the notion of "filler cases". The cases don't need to serve an overarching plot to have the right to exist. They're here because they have a great mystery, sometimes good characters and they're just fun to play ! It also helps to give a sense of realism to the franchise. I don't mean that AA is very realistic but if we just focus around Phoenix' job, it's a good way to see his regular job as well as the cases that will change his entire life. Not everything has to be life changing to be good for the characteres or the player.
I agree, Ace Attorney is based on murder mystery serials like the Sherlock Holmes books or Murder She Wrote. It’s not specifically trying to tell one cohesive story throughout one game although they do like to include one overarching plotline that spans the entirety of one game just to tie the game together into a cohesive experience, but that doesn’t mean that plotline is what makes the game.
@Tenacious PInteresting to see other people takes on this. I think that Turnabout Samurai was the third case I liked the less (in the trilogy). It's a very solid case with great mystery and plot twists. However, I really didn't like the characters. Oldbag, Hammer (at the time, I like him a lot more in 2-4), Sal Monela, De Vasquez... Not a good cast. At least we have Edgeworth as a prosecutor here which is great because he's my favorite. And the witness kid wasn't too bad either. It's a good mystery but one of the cases I wouldn't really want to replay (or at least not the investigation parts). I love recipe for a Turnabout! I see the problem with Jean as a character but I honestly liked him (I played on the French version so he was Italian. The translation may have changed my perception of the character, compares to those who have played the English version so it felt important to add this). A great mystery with great twists. And except the old man, all the other characters were good. And I agree with you about Big Top Turnabout.
I think the issue is still a little more complex than that. Visual novels are text-based stories that involve interaction and gameplay mechanics. There are two styles of accomplishing this task however the episodic (short story) method or the overarching story model (novel). The former example exists in books such as James Joyce's Dubliners. In this short story collection, every story works together to paint a more holistic picture of what Dublin is like. The stories have threads that bind them together but there is no cohesive thread that binds them beyond theme that forces them all into one larger narrative. This format can work in a detective story fairly easily as long as you go case by case and use the individual stories together to build characters. This is more of the style of where a story can be told without any problems. Darkside Detective is an example of how this works well. The other approach is the novel format which is common amongst VNs where all the arcs, plot points, and episodes essentially tie into one another. We can use many examples of this but the Zero Escape series is one such example. However, despite these being the two major types, you can always go for the third option which is a fusion. In this case, you can get the best of both worlds. You get your stories that are meant to be fun breaks and told for the sake of it and you get an overarching story. Prime examples of this are shows like Bakugan or Yugioh where there's filler episodes in the amine but the story is constantly progressing in a narrative way that keeps viewers engaged. Unfortunately, this style of writing has two things that can easily make or break the story: concentration and length. Filler or stories for the sake of it work when you avoid a high dosage of it at one time. People are okay with funny episodes or zanny hijinks but that runs dry if it halts plot progression for too long of a duration. Imagine if you just discovered the best friend of the main character is murdered but then the next 4 chapters talk about stuff completely unrelated to that person's death, the investigation of it, or anything that really progresses their character. Instead, you get stories about other completely unrelated mysteries and characters that pads out the run time until we can get back to the main plot. This portion of time usually makes people quit the story or skip over this section because its a waste of time to them. It isn't necessarily bad or unfun but it comes across as a complete waste of time. You could easily avoid this issue by having it be its own separate thing at the end of a story as a sort of reward. That way, you can strengthen the narrative without having to sacrifice a good story that can still take place time wise where you want it to but not hinder players/readers who are here for the story (which VNs are primarily designed for story-focused, story-driven narratives that constantly progress). The other issue delves into something more complex. For simplest interpretation, in general, I would say a ratio of 7-3 story dense vs. story light content is a balanced approach for having filler and fun stories in your narrative. Any higher makes you wonder why it wasn't written as a short story series instead. You can do an 8-2 or higher focus on story and it'll still work because then it keeps the narrative a primary focus. The problem though is that this ratio can change depending on the length of a story. In general, the shorter the story the less filler there should be because if you didn't have a long enough narrative to last say 20 pages, then why did you add in 10 pages of nothing? It becomes more pronounced and noticeable when there's filler sections in a story when it is shorter than the average amount. For an episodic story, this means if you have an anime that's about 13 episodes, then your filler should be no more than 3 or about 23%. In conjunction with a concentration of said filler, this is a recipe for a disaster as it implies that the writer had no real plan for the story and should have stuck to a less structured plot line. Now then, Ace Attorney typically has between 4-5 episodes of varying length. However, for the majority of cases that suffer from mid-case syndrome, they tend to be longer cases than they should be (1-3 is 3 days, 2-3 is 2 days, 3-3 is 2 days, depending on which one you consider weaker 4-3/4-4 are 2 days, 5-3 is 2 days, and 6/2 or 6/4 is 1 day). They're not bad cases per say but they're certainly bulkier than expected especially for games like Justice for All. As a result, they suffer from the concentration effect. If parts of specific episodes were more stories for the sake of stories, this wouldn't be as much of a problem as it'd have better spacing and overall improve the pacing. After all, except for Justice for All, most of these games follow the format of an overarching story using episodes as the base. This means that progression in the story should feel like its constantly moving not like a 3-act structure per say but always towards some conclusion. The first game does this by cultivating in Miles coming to his realization on how his path went wrong. For Trials and Tribulations, it is the conclusion to the stories centered around a certain red haired lady. The other games follow this as well. The stories themselves tell a narrative that pushes towards a conclusion while providing backstory, character development, and enjoyable plots. That foward motion however gets halted by cases that come in the middle of the story where things tend to stagnate. The 1st game avoids this entirely but the 3rd, 5th, and 6th games all have this problem. Justice for All, meanwhile, is a game that only works narratively as the bridge and preparation for Trials and Tribulations. As a standalone, it fits the episodic format perfectly but is very weak narratively unless we view the 1st three games as one complete arc. In the grand scope perspective, then the filler is actually perfectly fine as only 3-4 cases out of 14 is significantly less problematic than an entire filler episode in a full fleshed game. Again, I think it would work better as a reward system where those filler cases are our reward for reaching the end rather than something that hinders progress. It helps give people those fun stories while working to provide story-focused people a strong narrative to delve into. Dual Destinies sort of did that with its one case but then left behind another one to take its place. The last issue to consider is how this time could be better spent on doing stronger plots and characters. Duel Destinies kind of shows the flaw in having stories for its own sake as the game never seemed to have a direction to pull Athena that fell fully fleshed out and well done. The same happened to Franziska in JFA where they ended up having to give her more stories in other games to continue fleshing her out and carving out her own plot arc. I'm not disagreeing with your ideas however. This is just my outlook on things from the perspective of someone more narratively focused when it comes to stories. I get where you're coming from in that sometimes the reward is the journey, the fun, and the good times. However, it feels like Ace Attorney needs to strike a more nuanced balance when it handles its narratives especially when you get the best of both worlds in two spin-off games that arguably don't have filler episodes yet still contain the filler elements that enrich the stories. I dunno I'm mostly rambling at this point. Ultimately, it just comes down to the structure of the game and stories being told. Ace Attorney tends to follow overarching narratives so it becomes more noticeable for people like myself when it adds in stories for the sake of it when that time could be spent on other aspects.Nothing wrong with the stories themselves but it is just something that crops up as a paradoxical result of their existence.
I don't think the cases in the first 3 games are filler as they play a large role in the grand scheme of things. Turnabout Samurai introduces a running joke in the form of the Samurai movies and tv shows and also is the case which begins Edgeworth's character development. Turnabout Big Top begins the introduction of Edgeworth in Justice for All with him saving the case at the end and returning to Japanifornia. Recipe for Turnabout hints at Godot's backstory due to him missing the ketchup stain on Maggey's apron and is later mentioned and used as proof for Bridge to the Turnabout.
@@espurrseyes42 It did end up being more proof of Godot's condition because I feel like that one single time that Godot missed the color red wouldn't be counted as proof.
T&T Case 3 is actually also the point where Godot starts seeing that Phoenix is a capable attorney. And if you remove it we also have one less case to get to know "Godot" which will make the final parts of Bridge to Turnabout immensely less sad.
I think there'd a narrative reason here, and yes the TLDR is filler. Case 1 is a tutorial. Case 2 is more challenging, introduces the more challenging prosecutor. Cases begin to expand. Case 3 is there, often starts some elements to smooth the transition between case 2 to 4, maybe introducing some small elements. They want to increase the difficulty, so investigations and courtroom battles and harder, and longer. Case 4/5 serves as a finale and ties things together. There's some problems when they diverge from this. Investigations 1 has its main stars barely show up, I'd argue the main rival in Investigations 2 doesn't show their soft/better siide til' later (but case 5 helps immensely), Apollo Justice is a bit easygoing anyways, JFA doesn't develop Francisca ENOUGH in the two case time we have her... There's a lot arguable and debatable nd things that can be switched around, but, anyways, my conclusion is case three exists for a reason, and should carry some better, minor moments/plot to set up the larger finale.
I'm so glad that I'm finally finding some channels making videos about Ace Attorney, and not just meme videos, but actual analysis. Too bad all you guys only float around 100 subs. At least you just now get a new one!
Only the first 5 AA games (trilogy, Apollo Justice and Investigations) suffer from the 3rd case syndrom. The newest 6 AA games (Investigations 2, Layton vs Phoenix, Dual Destinies, TGAA, Spirit of Justice and TGAA2) all have awesome third cases, luckily this syndrome is a relict from the past!
Spirit of Justice *does* suffer from 4th case syndrome, unfortunately. I know that, due to the narrative cruxes of Spirit of Justice, Athena would take backstage in favor of developing the Kingdom of Kura'in and Apollo's story, which up until that game had been severely brushed aside (hell, the poor guy has the story taken off his hands in the game he was the *protagonist* of), but man Athena deserved a better case. It would've been nice if the case had actually been connected in some way to the narrative of Spirit of Justice in some minor way, if it had more relevance to her as a character beyond Simon, or if it connected in some way to Apollo and/or Trucy. Instead, the case unfortunately sticks out like a sore thumb next to the other 4 cases. To give some credit where its due, having a character with multiple personality dissorder involved in the case is a pretty good choice for psychological analyst Athena; and having Simon tearing sad monk a new one from the defense's bench is pretty awesome.
For real, I think in every game since Investigations 1 (discounting Investigations 2 which I haven't played because official localizations) the third case is a highlight. 5-3 is in contention for my favorite case in DD (which is my 3rd favorite game in the series), and DGS2-3 is top 5 cases in the whole series.
@@Brunosky_IncI've seen people suggest that just maybe Turnabout Storyteller would’ve been better without Sad Monk, because, like, I get wanting to avoid the Franziska error of not actually giving the Rival Prosecutor enough cases to be fleshed-out by the time we get to the inevitable “end” of their arc at the end of the given game, but, like, I feel like I just ended up not liking Sahdmadhi, even with some of his more clever quips in this case, because he just sort-of felt like a bare-bones rehash of both Edgeworth and Gavin (Klavier), in that he was just sort-of a dickish “prodigy” prosecutor that was a dick but we were supposed to forgive him when his plot wrapped up in the final chapter (as opposed, naturally, to van Karma (Franziska), who was dickish but also clearly just a young brat, Godot, who didn’t really seem to care much whether he won or lost any cases and was generally just fucking with Phoenix every trial, and Blackquill, who had a kind of quite intensity about him (not dissimilar to that lurking underneath Godot’s easygoing façade), and was, of course, arrogant, too, but it’s something else when it’s a chained wolf we’re up against), which, like, for Edgeworth, that was one thing, because he managed to develop over the two cases that we experience him in before the finale, and for Klavier, that was another, and I know that a lot of people didn’t care for Klavier, but I, personally, liked that he sort-of felt like a blend of Edgeworth and Godot (with Edgeworth’s prodigy-fuelled invincible-feeling arrogance but also Godot’s easygoing nature, not becoming devastated when he lost cases), and I felt that he really did compliment Apollo the way Edgeworth compliments Phoenix, especially when Apollo was fairly headstrong and Klavier could be so cool, but, like, I can also get why people didn’t want a Rival Prosecutor who was sort-of just a blend of the past three (I forgot to mention the “vaguely European/studied in Germany” and “younger sibling” bits from Franziska), but, in any case, Sahdmadhi REALLY just felt like “There we go again”, and there were quite a few times where he felt like a Payne, which is not what I wanted in my main game, and I don’t feel like Storyteller did him any major props. As for who I, personally, ‘d substitute in for him, the pickings are, admittedly, slim, especially for a case that has no Investigative phase (which is also, admittedly, a plus for this case, which otherwise might’ve been more memorable for being banal), and, considering the fact that Phoenix wouldn’t have been present, it just narrows the fairly small list of available Prosecutors to star in the Guest Role even slimmer, because, really, wouldn’t it just be weird to have Edgeworth without Wright? Obviously, I have no interest in having a Payne take this case, because we already dealt with a Payne at the beginning, and also it’s important to have a Guest Prosecutor who could still provide for the otherwise-completely-absent-from-this-game Athena, and so, personally, although I wouldn’t mind getting to actually go up against Lana Skye, I can’t imagine that she’d do much, especially when we would literally have no previous trials against her to reference this one with, and, for the one trial that has Athena in the game, it’s probably best to have someone that someone from Wright and Co. has already faced, in order to have something to build from, for this particular Athena (and Blackquill) vs Them instance, so I will have mark her out, and that brings the number of non-criminal (as opposed to Manfred von Karma, Godot, Jacques Sportsman, and others), living (as opposed to Jake Marshall, Byrne Faraday, and others) Prosecutors available to just Klavier Gavin and Franziska von Karma. (Sidebar: I think it would’ve been incredibly fascinating if they decided to make Jake Marshall into a Prosecutor after the end of Rise from the Ashes (or whatever the hell that Turnabout was called), filling in his brother’s spot, but, since it’s said that Jake was really just a parallel to Godot as Lana and Ema were to Mia and Maya, I’m not entirely sure how interesting of a Prosecutor they would’ve thus made him, or if they would’ve then made him a Defence Attorney, but, in any case, that has little bearing on this current train of thought) Now, I think both Franziska and Klavier would have things to bring to the table against Athena, and not just because all three of them appear to have been Lawyer Prodigies Licensed in Germany (Where There’s Apparently No Minimum Age Requirement), and, although I think it might’ve been interesting to have either Klavier or Franziska co counsel, that seems remarkably improbable, a little much, and, ultimately, would mean that there would be four flipping lawyers at-bar in the case, which seems like a lot much (as opposed to a little much), so I’ll tarry on under the assumption thus that only one can counsel. For Klavier, it’s worth noting that Athena has met him before, is apparently a fan of his, and had a fairly solid rapport in their meagre conversations they had in those few meetings. For Franziska, it could be nice to see two incredibly young European-educated lady lawyers go toe-to-toe, and it’s also worth wondering whether Franziska would have any more “respect” for a sister solicitor, so-to-speak (although it’s highly doubtful, but still, we’ve never actually seen her against a female defence attorney (“Callisto Yew” doesn’t count)). Ultimately, although I do think that there are definitely some good reasons to’ve gone with the Fräulein von Karma, I have to say that, personally, I think that Herr Gavin would probably be the best fit against Fräulein Cykes (and can you imagine their random Deutsch expletives paired?!), and I think that that would’ve been a nice way of giving Sahdmadhi a break (whilst also bringing poor Klavier back out from the attic for a moment). I think that, with Klavier, it still makes a great deal of sense for Ema Skye to be the Detective in charge of the investigation (although back to that Lana point from earlier, now THAT could’ve been fun~) and given her a break from Sahdmadhi, and, besides that, I think everything else could’ve remained just about the same. (Alternatively, if we were to go with the Fräulein von Karma, I suppose the ONLY thing to do would be to bring our wonderful Gumshoe back out to play Detective one last time, here, and that would be just ever-so-wonderful, but, unfortunately, with no-one else but Franziska present from the original trilogy, we’d have to introduce him to literally every other character involved, here, and that seems like a ridiculous hassle when he could literally have been brought back at just about any other given time when Phoenix was present (and wouldn’t that’ve been nice?)~ Anyways, all that to say that I think that I wouldn’t’ve minded Storyteller as much, personally, if Herr Gavin were the Prosecutor, but perhaps that’s just me; how do you think about it all?
I love Samurai, mostly because I find most of the characters likeable and the mystery is pretty good. My issues with Big Top and Recipe are that the characters aren’t as interesting and both feature such an obvious culprit (though I guess Dee was also pretty obvious but the method isn’t obvious, especially since the victim was the one who set up the crime). Still, I don’t find Samurai, Big Top or Recipe to be any more filler than something like the Stolen Turnabout which is the most tedious case of the OG trilogy imo.
Stolen isn't really Filler since you don't get the introduction to Godot without it, and trying to introduce him with the plot of Recipe would be weird considering part of the original premise is that he turned down the case because he knew about Xin Eohp, hence why Payne ended up handling the first run of the case.
@@espurrseyes42 Yeah, I don't think it is a filler case and I don't think there are any filler cases in Ace Attorney since it's an episodic series at it's core but if we're talking about a case's relevance to the overarching story of it's respective game, neither Stolen nor Recipe really add on to the whole Dahlia stuff in Trials and Tribulations and Godot's introduction could've theoretically been rewritten and moved to a different case if they had, for whatever reason, decided to cut Stolen out of the game (again, just theoretically).
Stolen Turnabout wasn't great and I didn't like Mask DeMasque's character at all. Especially because he was guilty for stealing but we proved him not guilty and pinned the crime to Luke Atmey, and even though we later prove Mask he was indeed the thief and our deduction was false he couldn't be put to trial anymore because of the rule that a sentence is final. Still this case had recurring characters and Luke Atmey is one of the funniest characters and minor villains in the series with a banger theme
I think without the third “filler” case, each game would end up feeling rushed and too fast paced overall. So them being the weak links may be true for certain third cases, they are still important in furthering the expansion of lore and developing character, be it small or not. I think its also natural that the third case feels to have more investigating time, since the first is always the tutorial and you miss out on any investigating and the second tends show you the investigating ropes but not want to push you too hard into unfamiliar territory. But these are all my opinion. I also agree the third cases all tend to be forgettable, but i am a forgettable person in general. Lol Great video ^_^
I've come to the conclusion that the 3rd case problem isn't a problem. It reminds us that there are other people in the AA world besides the main characters and their associates. It would kind of suck ass if every single case involved Fey clan shenanigans or the DL-6 incident.
Yes yes I love that you explored this in high detail. This is why I love Apollo Justice as well as the dai gyakuten saiban duology. Without spoiling, every case has something to do with the story in some way, and you don’t realise it until things come together and you figure out why certain events were more important than they seemed. Other than that, third cases, even if not very good narratively or gameplay-wise, have been good for progressing prosecutor arcs. I mean, if we never had Turnabout Samurai, we never would have gotten our ‘unnecessary feelings’ line!! Turnabout Big Top was also good for Franziska, as I recall that was when she made clear that she was trying to get revenge for Edgeworth, not her father. And Recipe for Turnabout ...? Well not much I guess, but to be honest I did like that they foreshadowed not only that Godot can’t see red on a white background, but the way his goggles light up in darkness, both important facts for the final case.
5:17 the shirt is symbolic because in the Japanese version of the game, Phoenix's name, Ryuuichi, is partly made from the Japanese word for "Dragon," so it's Tigre's animal motif devouring "Phoenix's."
I know right? I thought Moe was annoying at first, but as the case progressed, he kinda grew on me, especially since it became increasingly clear that he was smarter and more mature than he let on (penalty-inducing jokes notwithstanding).
@@Pokemonleafmon I actually gave him a Curly voice from those Black and White shorts of the Three Stooges (I watched that a lot as a kid) But when he was being serious I imagine him being closer to the Anime.
@@WorstDBDPlayer Ace Attorney Investigations 2. The final case in that game. She was even the one who found the body so had a fairly important role in that case.
Yeah, she stood out to me in Samurai because her whole character is that she doesn’t stand out. Sal is definitely a more forgettable character despite having such a name.
IDK why, but the even the filler cases felt almost as fun as plot relevant cases to me, whether it be TA (Turnabout) Samurai, or TA big top, recipe for TA, TA Serenade, TA academy or Rite to TA
@@tbone415 yea. It depends on your perspective. I always looked from Phoenix's client's perspective, thought how they are feeling, getting locked up for something they probably didn't do. I put myself in their shoes, and I felt like I NEED to solve the case, for their sake.
@@fawful9992 Yea, they decided to switch the case relevance format for the game, probably to make sure the case location goes in the Khurain -> Jaoanifornia -> Khurain ->Japanifornia -> Khurain sequence
Recipe for Turnabout is honestly one of my favorite filler cases. T&T can actually be pretty dark at times, but Recipe for Turnabout was just a silly case that gave you a break from the seriousness. (Just my opinion tho)
The Great Ace Attorney is a strange exception. The third case is important for the main story, but the fourth case has no relevance. But since the second case is investigation only (no trial!), you could say, the third case which has trials has no relevance.
One thing to note however is that The Great Ace Attorney isn't like other AA games. Without going into any details, case 1 of The Great Ace attorney isn't just the 1st case of the game but also the 6th case in the story. In this way, you can see The Great Ace Attorney as two games that make one overarching story with a Part 1 and a Part 2. As such, it doesn't quite have the same structure as a typical AA game. Spirit of Justice is a better example of this situation. While a lot of people like case 4 of that game, it really has nothing to do with anything to the plot and only serves to worsen our perspective on the main rival prosecutor. It's just comedic fluff to stall for time long enough that the main plot can return and chaos to ensue. Plus, i think 3rd case syndrome is less about being the third case in a game and just a Middle case that either drags out, stalls, or detracts from the overarching plot despite the game being both episodic and story driven. I think a good compromise would be having these cases as bonus reward cases you can play at any time after case 2 so that people can enjoy them for what they are without feeling like the story's being drowned by their prescence. Granted, this doesn't work for the shorter games but it would help for the pacing of longer ones. I dunno I think at this point I'm just rambling lol.
If I had a nickel for every time a series has the recurring theme that the third case is the weakest link I'd have 2 nickels which isn't alot but it's weird that it happened twice.
One of the positives of 3rd cases is that, for the most part, you get to do investigations with maya. Like sure, most turnabouts need to be plot-related, but give me some step-ladder arguments in between
i think that capcom took the existence of this ‘syndrome’ to heart with (most of) the rest of the series. all of the third cases after ajaa were good and/or relevant-or at least TRIED to be. lots of spoilers from here on out, for literally every game but pw v pl. - the kidnapped turnabout. introduced both of the memorable original characters for aai. they were trying a bit TOO hard to break the mold here-lang and kay should’ve been in the second case-but if anything that proves my point more. - the inherited turnabout. F/CKING GREGWORTH. that’s all i need to say. - turnabout academy. it’s um. the exception. but they did try to develop athena. tried. and it’s... about as good as the rest of the game...😬 - the rite of turnabout. HOLY SH/T. the rite of turnabout was an amazing case! they never do multiple victims! and the victims were the culprits!! AND THEY DEVELOPED THE DEFIANT DRAGONS SO THOROUGHLY!!! - the adventure of the clouded kokoro. if you put it in my hands and told me it was the fifth case the ONLY question i would have is “why is there a tutorial for the jury mechanic then?” this case had so much depth, so much impact, they really just threw you STRAIGHT IN. - the return of the great departed soul. KAZUMA ASOGI. K. KAZUMA ASOGI. KAZUMA ASOGI??? KAZUMA. and i guess it develops van zieks a whole lot. whatever that’s nothing next to KAZUMA MOTHERF/CKING ASOGI. they have STEPPED UP their third case game and i think it’s at least partially because people noticed the pattern.
Appreciate the spoiler warning! I'll for sure come back to the rest of this comment when I'm done with TGAA (which apparently has an interesting 3rd case to say the least).
Turnabout Serenade is probably the biggest case of "third case syndrome" besides Bigtop and I think it should've been brought up. Anything after the trilogy isn't talked about much on this channel so I guess a sentence or two would be enough. Games outside the trilogy too would be really cool tho
Big Top's mystery's conclusion was so fricking whacky that I honestly kinda respect how absolutely bonkers the whole thing is i couldn't of guessed any of that at ALL the method, the weapon, and the fact that he got the WRONG person?! MY GOD everything had to be SO exact in such an impossibly unbelievable way that it blows my mind
#1: I love Recipe for Turnabout, even if some of the witnesses are...and what do you mean no relevance, it has Maggey Byrde #2: 2-1 is worse than 2-3, because 2-1 is basically lame tutorial excuse and doesn't introduce anything for new players, though to be fair only 2-2 has greater plot significance in JFA #3: Turnabout Samurai would probably be fine if they just squished day 1 and day 2 together and got rid of the trading side quest
@@jatarokemuri5443 the trading side quest that you need to get the kid to talk to you... (you wait till oldbag gets back, however you do that (new players wouldn't even know) then you trade her the key card for the cards then you talk to the kid to find out he doesn't care then you (eventually) figure out to trade with Penny, from there you then trade with the kid. It's not that bad if you know about it but it's just padding for time honestly...
Turnabout Samurai is one of the best cases in the series imo. I'd say it's my favourite out of the first game. Or at least tied with Turnabout Goodbyes
funny enough the 3rd cases are some of my favorites in general, the fact that they have some separation from the main story line is one of the factors i like about those cases
I think they are filler cases, but necessary filler cases. They allow the prosecution to fully spread their personality out. It'd be kinda weird if, in the first game, you went from meeting Edgeworth and seeing he's a jerk and then suddenly having to care about him in the next case. 3rd cases help us get to know the prosecution more
I’m gonna be honest, I enjoyed every third case in the mainline series, a case doesn’t need to be integral to the main story/“not filler” to be good (haven’t completed the spin-offs, but AAI1-3 was pretty enjoyable as well despite its infamous flaws)
You do make good points, but there are a few things. 1. Turnabout Samurai being three days is emblematic of the first game having way worse overall trial pacing than the rest of the series. In the games after PW:AA, none of the trials actually reach they three day limit. They all wrap up before then for the sake of streamlining gameplay (and presumably the story as well). 2. I'd argue that filler cases genuinely do serve a purpose, even if they aren't necessarily plot-relevant: They provide a break in between the more intense cases. Having a chapter that is silly and that lacks the stakes of the overall narrative can benefit that narrative structurally by giving the audience breathing room to prepare for when things really hit the fan, especially in a series that deals with heavy topics like Ace Attorney. That doesn't mean that those filler cases can't be weaker in their own right, though.
I like how GAA not only makes the third case in the first game relevant to the overarching storyline, but BRINGS IT BACK as the second case in the second game which is the start of a precipitating event.
I basically agreed with everything you said in the video, and the quality of the video itself is very cool and good. also your voice is incredible, i don’t know why I mentioned it but god I love your voice and just the way you say things is just so calm. You sound so professional, 10/10
You might have touched on this but the narrative reveal of Turnabout Samurai is the fact that it establishes the role of self-defense in the world of Phoenix Wright as a lead in to the fourth case
The music in turnabout big top is bad and a year ago I would’ve said well it’s circus music that’s hard to make good then the man who masterminds the game started and I had a thought how did you do this it’s absolutely amazing with the mastermind villain theme mixed with carnival music it’s perfection
Interesting good video. So glad my recommendations recommended a good one. I love the AA series, and yeah the third cases were very much filler arc or like breather episodes before the dramatic big finale cases. I think the only third case I like was Turnabout Samurai just for the music. It's iconic
would easily die on the hill that turnabout samurai is one of the best cases in the entire franchise, and the first game doesn’t have a single bad case, that said though, the third case in almost every other game is usually the one i dislike the most in /that/ game for different reasons
usually, i can play case after case when it comes to ace attorney, but i always give up and abandon the game once i reach the 3rd case. its always the longest and the most trying. i still remember how tiring it was to go back and forth in the big top clown case. i just went back and forth and back and forth for what felt like hours on end. same with the other 3rd cases from the trilogy. i forget about the game for months and when i come back i need to use a guide to help me get out of where i was stuck because there was no way i would be able to figure out how on my own. also, good video!
Ooh! One thing I really like about the final moment in TT Case 3 is it can be seen as an inspiration for Apollo Justice, and the changing court system in-game. The necessity of firm evidence being the only way to convict or defend someone being planted in Nick’s mind from this moment, stewing more and more after his debarment for 7 years.
5:02 None of them. Ever. This is actually canon. In Turnabout Memories, Grossberg mentions that the judge is called The Great Judgini because he somehow always ends up with the correct verdict, lol.
recipe for turnabout is my favorite non finale case in the trilogy and i feel like they arent that bad as the third cases are supposed to have a fun cast and setting with a out there murder which they all do so i love the third cases plus whats wrong with a filler case it would be stupid if every case was all connected and unrealistic
Love this video! I'm so glad I found an Ace Attorney fan channel, especially one that overanalyzes every detail of the games bc I do that constantly but don't produce the footage to make my point! It's also great to hear diverse opinions about the games. For a recommendation, I haven't seen your video on why Franziska sucks in Justice for All yet, but she's my favorite character, thanks to her character development in momentum from Trials and Tribulations and Investigations (the fact that Edgeworth and her are definitely siblings and how she's avenging him in JfA, that she may still have a trauma after getting shot, how sensitive she gets when a young girl she identifies to criticizes her... And the fact that her whip is a comedic effect in Japanese shock culture, that is her main way of keeping everything under her control). As I said, i overanalyze as well, but don't actually record myself doing it, so we might not share the same opinion but I'd love to hear yours!
Thanks! You should totally make videos of your own too! As long as you have the time, and things to say why not? That's why I made this video here, even though I'm less proud of it now (as all youtubers are of their first).
5:28 I think this trick is kind of used again in 4-1 with the fake bloody card to compromise Kristoph into revealing that the evidence is "legit", but it's not played out as being a big deal like in 3-3
@@aniyuvan Well without a doubt, yeah. It’s great and I freaking love Athena but we’re talking about the trilogy so Recipe for Turnabout wins regarding that. If we were to include the other games, Turnabout Academy for sure
@@techinalmachine Turnabout Samurai is a good one too! I just feel like Dee Vazquez didn’t need to do all that though. Hopefully her defense attorney in-universe labels it self defense when she goes to trial for her murder
Other people have talked about the symbolism with the Tiger devouring a Dragon on Furio Tigre's shirt, but also, it's just a really obvious yakuza guy's "cool shirt" to wear when he wants to look good and also let people know what's up.
Apollo Justice also suffers the same issue big time but it was good to see for DD and SoJ that third case syndrome was wiped out, Turnabout Academy in particular. It still had the concept of being disconnected from the main plot for the most part, with the only real tie-ins to the rest of the game being a prequel to Juniper Woods who we met in the first trial and giving us the proper understanding of the Dark Age of the Law trope that's present throughout, but it did so well considering the sordid history case 3 has always had.
While I do agree with this, imo Turnabout Bigtop was meant to show that even though the circus people are... shady, at best, Max didn't deserve to go to prison just because people don't like him and maybe think he should. The truth is paramount
Good video! I will say though, as much as some people dislike 'filler', I actually really appreciate it and I generally like the third cases. As someone mentioned below, for gameplay purposes they serve as the medium difficulty transition, with longer sections and more tricky investigating. Moreover though, in terms of narrative, they're just a nice breather. Cases 4-5 tend to be really heavy so I do appreciate having a relatively light-hearted case. Some games more than others; Apollo Justice arguably has Cases 2 and 3 both fit the archetype, and Spirit of Justice has the admittedly only average Case 4 serve, but regardless of where they are, I do think a small breather before the finale really helps.
Personal ranking of ALL 3rd cases (except VS PL and DGS2, which I had not played) 9. Turnabout Big Top 8. Turnabout Serenade 7. The Kidnapped Turnabout 6. Turnabout Samurai 5. The Recipe for Turnabout 4. The Rite of Turnabout 3. Turnabout Academy 2. The Adventure of The Runaway Room 1. The Inherited Turnabout
Very good video. I think Turnabout Samurai is best 3rd case. It feels more cohesive and relevant. Most of Recipe for Turnabout is relatively annoying to me but it's still great all things considered
Those missions are needed for levity. I loved these cases, because it lowered the stakes for a bit, and gave the characters time to just relax and have fun. Especially the circus mission, Maya goes through hell in JFA, that mission was much needed to split it up. All 3 of them do that, with JFA just being the most severe case.
And here I thought I was the only one who had mixed feelings on most case 3s. For me that includes the newer games as well, but this is about the original trilogy. I think case 3s suffer from length more than anything. A lot of case 4s, I’ve noticed, tend to be on the short side and are easier to digest and enjoy, at least for me. As long as they’re in a game with a case 5, of course. I personally liked Big Top, and I guess it’s mainly because I didn’t really dislike the characters as much as others do. I think seeing the circus members show reverence for their ringleader helped make a common thread between them. Moe is more of an eye-roller than a moaner, and he does show his serious adult side in the second day of the trial, for the blonde girl’s sake (already forgot her name tbh). Acro I definitely felt for, and he’s still one of the most unique and likable culprits in the series. I did not like Recipe for Turnabout. A lot of the characters were annoying (e.g., Victor Kudo) and the reasoning behind the case just got ridiculous to a point I stopped caring trying to even follow it. Furio Tigre is a cool concept but debuted in a disappointing case for me, so I don’t care for him too much. Plus, yeah, people like the judge thinking he’s Phoenix is... silly. This is frankly my least-favorite case in T&T, and probably the original trilogy. I think my favorite case 3 has to be the one from Dual Destinies. That was probably the most solid case 3 I ever played, and it has decent relevance to DD’s story. Spirit of Justice also has a good case 3, but there are a number of issues to it.
Something I think would be really interesting to discuss, particually in the instance of Reunion and Turnabout, would be what the original Edgeworth cut of JFA would have been, before Franziska was created.
My friend and I played the first AA game a while back (I had played before, she hadn't) and tbh, I would have probably told her to just skip Turnabout Samurai if it wasn't for the "Unnecessary Feelings" scene.
I don’t think it’s really “third case syndrome” as much as it is “filler case syndrome”. Filler cases aren’t usually as interesting as cases involved with the main story, and third cases just tend to be filler cases (usually the only filler case of the game). The first case is a tutorial and helps set up the plot. The second case further establishes the storyline and introduces the main characters of the game. We take a break from the main storyline with a filler case for the third, then finish off with a really strong fourth case. Of course there might be some other cases, filler or not thrown in there, but generally that’s the formula that ace attorney follows. The filler cases are kind of at a natural disadvantage, since they aren’t meant to push the story or characters forward as much, and therefore aren’t as memorable or emotionally driven. I don’t think that’s a bad thing necessarily, it just is what it is.
Good video. My listing of third case syndrome. 1. Big Top 2. Turnabout Samurai 3. Recipe for Turnabout No disrespect for Recipe for Turnabout, but honestly it was the most forgettable to me. It had it's funny moments, but it honestly felt the most tedious to me. Not because it was bad, but because I knew there was something much better the game was building up to. It's like trying to watch One Piece's Thriller Bark arc. Sure, it's a fine story. But we all knew there was a better story right after. Turnabout Samurai is good and is a classic case in my eyes. However it also has it's forgettable moments, though to a much lesser extent than Recipe. At least this case progressed Edgeworth's character. Unlike most people, I thought the circus characters were hilarious. There are so many times where I was laughing at the silliness of the whole thing. Again, no disrespect to Recipe, but there were various times in Recipe where I was just bored and looking at the clock. Big top kept me entertained the entire time. Now yes, the love triangle is sus as hell. Aside from that however, I like the circus characters. And then there's Acro. What more could be said about him? He's one of my top ten best Ace Attorney villains.
I feel like the 3rd cases aren't meant to truly further plot, but instead further out experience for both Wright and the prosecutor. It's for us to see extra feats that Wright and the game's prosecutor can make. Edit: Recipe for Turnabout is one of my favorite cases due to Furio Tigre by the way. Guy's an amazing villain. Just a shame he wasn't called Phoenix Wrong at all
OBJECTION! Recipe for Turnabout was the most enjoyable episode to play. IMO it was the only episode that I enjoyed the investigations more than the trials.
The Third Case always is that one that offers so little to no plot to the main storyline, along present very colorful high-pitched characters that are part of entertainment. But god what SoJ offered us as the third case...
It's weird I like most of them 1-3: I like it 2-3: Really Bad 3-3: I really like it, entertaining 4-3: OH GOD I HATE IT 5-3: Really nice case. The bond between friends and the characters were charming 6-3: eh
Umm as far as Tigre admitting his own murder, to some degree so did the killer in the case RIGHT BEFORE IT, he literally was free to go and then had to mention what the defendant was wearing at the time which he couldn't have known unless he was there
![The Eternal Shipping Wars of Ace Attorney [Objection.lol]](/img/1.gif)
Soooooooooo many people are still checking out this video! If you liked it, I've made several more since (which are better imo) and am now back to regularly uploading!
Here is my Ace Attorney playlist: ruclips.net/p/PLyUe6D7RSNAYPn2tLQpyaDT2a2HkUqs4z
I think I am the only one who believes in the second case syndrome and not this.
🦀🦀🦀
No joke I knew exactly who Penny Nichols was off the top of my head
God yokai watch was a nice series. Memories are coming back
i love her so much her name is penny nichols for no reason except that it's funny
Fun fact the creators included her in I2-5 purely as a joke about how unmemorable she was.
It actually helped me remember her lmao
If she didn't have that name I probably wouldn't remember her lol
OBJECTION! TURNABOUT SAMURAI IS ONE OF MY FAVORITES! IT HAS SUCH A GREAT PLOT TWIST
I think the problem with Samurai is the witnesses themselves.
*o h g o d . t h e T u r n a b o u t S a m u r a i w i t n e s s e s . . .*
@@Mute14_ I found myself sighing while playing this case because of the witnesses.
@@Mute14_ oldbag is the worst she’s super annoying
TAKE THIS! (Opinion)
i think it's annoying because
s i d e q u e s t
I like the third cases, it makes more sense for you to have cases that don't relate to your story or your friends
Same apart from turnabout big top for obvious reasons
@@junkoenoshima2756 I like what big top did with Franziska, I feel like it really rounded her character a lot plus we find out about her true motive and how much she cares about edgeworth. But, good god, was the clown pedophilia really necessary
@@Me-io3wg same only good part of that case
@@junkoenoshima2756 BRUH THAT IS THE BEST ONE
@@jaxsterminator8634 what happened to your standards? do you need help?
The only part of Turnabout Big Top I liked was the ending. Acro’s story genuinely made me sad and I felt emotions when the case ended.
Recipe for Turnabout just frustrated me, especially that everybody believed that Furio Tigre could possibly be Phoenix. It was utterly ridiculous in my opinion.
Remember, Gotod can't see the color red and the judge is an idiot who can't do his job without the prosecution yelling at him to do so because he is nearly the prosecutions puppet until the defense can prove otherwise.
@@Moved506 Well, Payne was the prosecutor in the phony trial, not Godot.
But Payne wouldn't question anything as long as he was winning.
I hated the relationship between Bat, Max, the other guy, and Regina because she's 16.
Moe was the only normal one there
@@microwave8931 absolutely agree- I remember scrolling through the profiles and seeing Regina’s age and going “sorry what-“
@@danwithnoplan2584 same thing with Larry and:
Kay
Maya (when she was 17)
Ema (when she was 16)
Not Pearl exactly but he said something like "Never date 2 girls with the same name"
Trucy
There's more but I'm not going to bother
for me, third cases were always an escape from the main plotline, it wasnt related to any of the recurring characters involved in the game and it served as a reminder that phoenix defended cases other than those which personally involved him or his friends, making phoenix's career a tad more realistic than what it would have been without the third cases.
Trials and Tribulations plays on this very well by planting the fact that Godot can't see red and that his mask glows in the dark at the end of an otherwise unconnected case and one that people are perhaps poised to overlook due to third case syndrome, so you only remember it when it suddenly comes to light in the final case.
You did a great job with this video!
Also, here's a cool fact that kind of gets lost in localization: The whole tiger motif (and loud shirt) with Furio Tigre is meant as a contrast to Phoenix; particularly his Japanese name, Ryuuichi, which has the kanji for "dragon" 龍 (ryuu) in his name, and the tiger vs dragon is a recurring motif in Japanese culture, and is used for rivalries quite often in Japanese fiction
Why did you add an extra u to the end of Ryu? You are speaking Japanese, not a Scandinavian language.
@@CalebCoolman Oftentimes, but not always, when phonetically adapting Japanese pronunciation to English (often called "romanji"), when an extended vowel sound is represented, it'll be displayed as an additional instance of this vowel (in this case ryuu) but it could also be represented as ryū, which is probably what you're more used to seeing
@@HybridAngelZero okay, but can you make it ryūichi instead so it does not confuse others like me?
@@CalebCoolman Why should he? He gave a really simple and well explanation reason as to why he did so.
@@MrRaymangouw is it not obvious? Look at the reply above yours.
I think Recipe for Turnabout is important for Gumshoe's character. It's probably the first time he ever catches a break.
"What's this girl's name?"
Dude I immediately shouted "Penny Nichols" like it was some sort of Who's That Pokemon, I loved her interactions with Maya, Turnabout Samurai was one of the best cases in the series imo
I just love how she had one special animation, and it was just her greeting out and showing you her steel samurai cards.
I wish Penny Nichols had more canon appearances she was really fun for just a few lines of dialogue lol
Same
To me, the circus theme felt almost tragic, as if all of the incidents at the circus had changed the performers in some way, but it felt strange that acro meant to kill Regina, a 16 year old child.
Idk, it would probably weigh on you pretty damn hard if an accident that was caused by her essentially killed your brother and put you in a wheelchair, only to have her act like nothing is wrong at all... lol
i kind of also feel like that case highlights how the characters handle grief. theres parallels between franziska and acro trying to get revenge for their sibling and theres regina and phoenix who try to avoid talking about their respective losses. one could also say reginas naïvety reflects how phoenix himself used to be naïve as a college student (they kind of cry the same haha). it certainly isnt my favourite case but i do think people made it out to be more egregious than it actually is.
@@moodypear well said. I never drew those parallels. Something I also like about it is that there's characters that hate Max and would probably want him in jaol anyway even if he didn't do it. Phoenix even says when you first meet Max something like "Should I really defend this guy?". But just goes to show, the truth is important above all else. Even if some think he should get locked up anyway, he really shouldn't if he didn't commit the crime.
I’ve always thought the case would work a lot better if Regina weren’t 16. Not just bc of the love triangle, but bc the whole thing with her naivety and brushing off what happened would land a lot differently if she were older, like 18-20. A child being childish is nothing new, like how would you expect a 15-16 year old to handle it? We don’t expect the same maturity from them as we do adults, even just newly-turned ones. The story of her opening her eyes to the reality of the situation and learning the consequences of her actions just feel more compelling if she were a young adult instead, imo
@@kulacute I'd certainly expect a 16 year old to fully understand the gravity of the situation. But that's just me
I am very strongly against the notion of "filler" cases, at least in the original Triology. Before I follow up on why I want to let you know that this is a good video,; you clearly put the effort into it man, and a lot of the points you bring up are very valid like the investigations being long or the love triangle being creepy, I just take issue with the "no plot relevance" argument in particular.
It is true that the first Ace Attorney games are visual novels, but it would be a mistake to say they're structured like your regular story. There's no three-act structure, most characters are non-recurrent and there's not really a main story to follow at all. I think I can safely state without being controversial that Ace Attorney's structure is episodic, each case being a self-contained story about a different murder trial.
I think a lot of the argument for calling Ace Attorney a serialized novel is the confusion between the terms "episodic" and "lack of continuity". Ace Attorney follows an episodic formula, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have continuity. Characters develop and learn things, they have arcs, facts, and notions from past chapters can come back and become relevant again without the need for repetition.
But the fact that there are things in Ace Attorney that develop over the chapters, like the rivalry between Phoenix and his prosecutors, or the different themes of the series of believing in the client, and if truth is more important than victory, doesn't mean that it's fair to call it a serialized story divided by chapters.
Instead of "The story of Miles Edgeworth quitting prosecution in 5 chapters", a more accurate way to represent the first Ace Attorney game is "5 different stories that also develop Edgeworth to quite prosecution". Do you see what I mean by this? And under this different narrative interpretation of the Ace Attorney games, you can see why "this chapter has no plot relevance" stops being a flaw and becomes just a natural thing for a chapter to be.
So with this, a chapter doesn't need to justify its own existence, it just exists, it justifies itself. Telling the story is enough reason to tell the story in the first place, it's just storytelling for the sake of it, fun for the sake of fun, no fancy literature jargon being thrown around.
So the argument of "Chapter 3 can be removed from the story"'s response is nothing else than a "So what".
I can actually accept that argument in the third game, (Conveniently, the example you used), which clearly has an overarching narrative about Dhalia, Phoenix, Mia, and Armando. But even in that game, I wouldn't say a case that breaks away from that story is a flaw,: Cases 2 and 3 are stories that stand on their own, it's more the late game that decides to pick up where chapter 1 left it and throw a couple twists and curveballs, you know?
Anyways I don't know if you take the time to read comments or not, and I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just bringing up another way to read the Ace Attorney narrative structure that is equally valid, I'd say more accurate to the game's spirit, and that explains the existence of chapter 3s (Which are, by the way, pretty good). Not everything needs to be development and continuity, sometimes games just want to be games and tell stories. Great video, man! Keep up the good work.
Thank you, I was looking for someone saying something along these lines
I couldn't agree more. Thank you for this comment ! Before going on the AA subreddit or watching RUclips videos, I wasn't even thinking about Edgeworth's actions in term of character arc or about the notion of "filler cases". The cases don't need to serve an overarching plot to have the right to exist. They're here because they have a great mystery, sometimes good characters and they're just fun to play ! It also helps to give a sense of realism to the franchise. I don't mean that AA is very realistic but if we just focus around Phoenix' job, it's a good way to see his regular job as well as the cases that will change his entire life. Not everything has to be life changing to be good for the characteres or the player.
I agree, Ace Attorney is based on murder mystery serials like the Sherlock Holmes books or Murder She Wrote. It’s not specifically trying to tell one cohesive story throughout one game although they do like to include one overarching plotline that spans the entirety of one game just to tie the game together into a cohesive experience, but that doesn’t mean that plotline is what makes the game.
@Tenacious PInteresting to see other people takes on this. I think that Turnabout Samurai was the third case I liked the less (in the trilogy). It's a very solid case with great mystery and plot twists. However, I really didn't like the characters. Oldbag, Hammer (at the time, I like him a lot more in 2-4), Sal Monela, De Vasquez... Not a good cast. At least we have Edgeworth as a prosecutor here which is great because he's my favorite. And the witness kid wasn't too bad either.
It's a good mystery but one of the cases I wouldn't really want to replay (or at least not the investigation parts).
I love recipe for a Turnabout! I see the problem with Jean as a character but I honestly liked him (I played on the French version so he was Italian. The translation may have changed my perception of the character, compares to those who have played the English version so it felt important to add this). A great mystery with great twists. And except the old man, all the other characters were good.
And I agree with you about Big Top Turnabout.
I think the issue is still a little more complex than that. Visual novels are text-based stories that involve interaction and gameplay mechanics. There are two styles of accomplishing this task however the episodic (short story) method or the overarching story model (novel). The former example exists in books such as James Joyce's Dubliners. In this short story collection, every story works together to paint a more holistic picture of what Dublin is like. The stories have threads that bind them together but there is no cohesive thread that binds them beyond theme that forces them all into one larger narrative. This format can work in a detective story fairly easily as long as you go case by case and use the individual stories together to build characters. This is more of the style of where a story can be told without any problems. Darkside Detective is an example of how this works well. The other approach is the novel format which is common amongst VNs where all the arcs, plot points, and episodes essentially tie into one another. We can use many examples of this but the Zero Escape series is one such example. However, despite these being the two major types, you can always go for the third option which is a fusion. In this case, you can get the best of both worlds. You get your stories that are meant to be fun breaks and told for the sake of it and you get an overarching story. Prime examples of this are shows like Bakugan or Yugioh where there's filler episodes in the amine but the story is constantly progressing in a narrative way that keeps viewers engaged. Unfortunately, this style of writing has two things that can easily make or break the story: concentration and length. Filler or stories for the sake of it work when you avoid a high dosage of it at one time. People are okay with funny episodes or zanny hijinks but that runs dry if it halts plot progression for too long of a duration. Imagine if you just discovered the best friend of the main character is murdered but then the next 4 chapters talk about stuff completely unrelated to that person's death, the investigation of it, or anything that really progresses their character. Instead, you get stories about other completely unrelated mysteries and characters that pads out the run time until we can get back to the main plot. This portion of time usually makes people quit the story or skip over this section because its a waste of time to them. It isn't necessarily bad or unfun but it comes across as a complete waste of time. You could easily avoid this issue by having it be its own separate thing at the end of a story as a sort of reward. That way, you can strengthen the narrative without having to sacrifice a good story that can still take place time wise where you want it to but not hinder players/readers who are here for the story (which VNs are primarily designed for story-focused, story-driven narratives that constantly progress). The other issue delves into something more complex. For simplest interpretation, in general, I would say a ratio of 7-3 story dense vs. story light content is a balanced approach for having filler and fun stories in your narrative. Any higher makes you wonder why it wasn't written as a short story series instead. You can do an 8-2 or higher focus on story and it'll still work because then it keeps the narrative a primary focus. The problem though is that this ratio can change depending on the length of a story. In general, the shorter the story the less filler there should be because if you didn't have a long enough narrative to last say 20 pages, then why did you add in 10 pages of nothing? It becomes more pronounced and noticeable when there's filler sections in a story when it is shorter than the average amount. For an episodic story, this means if you have an anime that's about 13 episodes, then your filler should be no more than 3 or about 23%. In conjunction with a concentration of said filler, this is a recipe for a disaster as it implies that the writer had no real plan for the story and should have stuck to a less structured plot line.
Now then, Ace Attorney typically has between 4-5 episodes of varying length. However, for the majority of cases that suffer from mid-case syndrome, they tend to be longer cases than they should be (1-3 is 3 days, 2-3 is 2 days, 3-3 is 2 days, depending on which one you consider weaker 4-3/4-4 are 2 days, 5-3 is 2 days, and 6/2 or 6/4 is 1 day). They're not bad cases per say but they're certainly bulkier than expected especially for games like Justice for All. As a result, they suffer from the concentration effect. If parts of specific episodes were more stories for the sake of stories, this wouldn't be as much of a problem as it'd have better spacing and overall improve the pacing. After all, except for Justice for All, most of these games follow the format of an overarching story using episodes as the base. This means that progression in the story should feel like its constantly moving not like a 3-act structure per say but always towards some conclusion. The first game does this by cultivating in Miles coming to his realization on how his path went wrong. For Trials and Tribulations, it is the conclusion to the stories centered around a certain red haired lady. The other games follow this as well. The stories themselves tell a narrative that pushes towards a conclusion while providing backstory, character development, and enjoyable plots. That foward motion however gets halted by cases that come in the middle of the story where things tend to stagnate. The 1st game avoids this entirely but the 3rd, 5th, and 6th games all have this problem. Justice for All, meanwhile, is a game that only works narratively as the bridge and preparation for Trials and Tribulations. As a standalone, it fits the episodic format perfectly but is very weak narratively unless we view the 1st three games as one complete arc. In the grand scope perspective, then the filler is actually perfectly fine as only 3-4 cases out of 14 is significantly less problematic than an entire filler episode in a full fleshed game. Again, I think it would work better as a reward system where those filler cases are our reward for reaching the end rather than something that hinders progress. It helps give people those fun stories while working to provide story-focused people a strong narrative to delve into. Dual Destinies sort of did that with its one case but then left behind another one to take its place. The last issue to consider is how this time could be better spent on doing stronger plots and characters. Duel Destinies kind of shows the flaw in having stories for its own sake as the game never seemed to have a direction to pull Athena that fell fully fleshed out and well done. The same happened to Franziska in JFA where they ended up having to give her more stories in other games to continue fleshing her out and carving out her own plot arc. I'm not disagreeing with your ideas however. This is just my outlook on things from the perspective of someone more narratively focused when it comes to stories. I get where you're coming from in that sometimes the reward is the journey, the fun, and the good times. However, it feels like Ace Attorney needs to strike a more nuanced balance when it handles its narratives especially when you get the best of both worlds in two spin-off games that arguably don't have filler episodes yet still contain the filler elements that enrich the stories. I dunno I'm mostly rambling at this point. Ultimately, it just comes down to the structure of the game and stories being told. Ace Attorney tends to follow overarching narratives so it becomes more noticeable for people like myself when it adds in stories for the sake of it when that time could be spent on other aspects.Nothing wrong with the stories themselves but it is just something that crops up as a paradoxical result of their existence.
This video made me notice how every Case 3 in the trilogy were the results of previous accidents.
I don't think the cases in the first 3 games are filler as they play a large role in the grand scheme of things. Turnabout Samurai introduces a running joke in the form of the Samurai movies and tv shows and also is the case which begins Edgeworth's character development. Turnabout Big Top begins the introduction of Edgeworth in Justice for All with him saving the case at the end and returning to Japanifornia. Recipe for Turnabout hints at Godot's backstory due to him missing the ketchup stain on Maggey's apron and is later mentioned and used as proof for Bridge to the Turnabout.
Godot not being able to see red is brought up in Bridge with the lantern. They didn't necessarily NEED to bring it up in Recipe.
@@espurrseyes42 It did end up being more proof of Godot's condition because I feel like that one single time that Godot missed the color red wouldn't be counted as proof.
Also turnabout samurai brought up the fact that edgeworth is terrible with names, and the fact that he can rarely get a compliant witness.
Man, I still love how Furio Tigre caught himself. Like, as far as 3rd cases go, that's gotta be the best bluff Phoenix pulled off
T&T Case 3 is actually also the point where Godot starts seeing that Phoenix is a capable attorney. And if you remove it we also have one less case to get to know "Godot" which will make the final parts of Bridge to Turnabout immensely less sad.
I think there'd a narrative reason here, and yes the TLDR is filler.
Case 1 is a tutorial.
Case 2 is more challenging, introduces the more challenging prosecutor. Cases begin to expand.
Case 3 is there, often starts some elements to smooth the transition between case 2 to 4, maybe introducing some small elements. They want to increase the difficulty, so investigations and courtroom battles and harder, and longer.
Case 4/5 serves as a finale and ties things together.
There's some problems when they diverge from this. Investigations 1 has its main stars barely show up, I'd argue the main rival in Investigations 2 doesn't show their soft/better siide til' later (but case 5 helps immensely), Apollo Justice is a bit easygoing anyways, JFA doesn't develop Francisca ENOUGH in the two case time we have her...
There's a lot arguable and debatable nd things that can be switched around, but, anyways, my conclusion is case three exists for a reason, and should carry some better, minor moments/plot to set up the larger finale.
I'm so glad that I'm finally finding some channels making videos about Ace Attorney, and not just meme videos, but actual analysis.
Too bad all you guys only float around 100 subs. At least you just now get a new one!
Only the first 5 AA games (trilogy, Apollo Justice and Investigations) suffer from the 3rd case syndrom. The newest 6 AA games (Investigations 2, Layton vs Phoenix, Dual Destinies, TGAA, Spirit of Justice and TGAA2) all have awesome third cases, luckily this syndrome is a relict from the past!
Spirit of Justice *does* suffer from 4th case syndrome, unfortunately.
I know that, due to the narrative cruxes of Spirit of Justice, Athena would take backstage in favor of developing the Kingdom of Kura'in and Apollo's story, which up until that game had been severely brushed aside (hell, the poor guy has the story taken off his hands in the game he was the *protagonist* of), but man Athena deserved a better case.
It would've been nice if the case had actually been connected in some way to the narrative of Spirit of Justice in some minor way, if it had more relevance to her as a character beyond Simon, or if it connected in some way to Apollo and/or Trucy. Instead, the case unfortunately sticks out like a sore thumb next to the other 4 cases.
To give some credit where its due, having a character with multiple personality dissorder involved in the case is a pretty good choice for psychological analyst Athena; and having Simon tearing sad monk a new one from the defense's bench is pretty awesome.
For real, I think in every game since Investigations 1 (discounting Investigations 2 which I haven't played because official localizations) the third case is a highlight. 5-3 is in contention for my favorite case in DD (which is my 3rd favorite game in the series), and DGS2-3 is top 5 cases in the whole series.
@@Brunosky_IncI've seen people suggest that just maybe Turnabout Storyteller would’ve been better without Sad Monk, because, like, I get wanting to avoid the Franziska error of not actually giving the Rival Prosecutor enough cases to be fleshed-out by the time we get to the inevitable “end” of their arc at the end of the given game, but, like, I feel like I just ended up not liking Sahdmadhi, even with some of his more clever quips in this case, because he just sort-of felt like a bare-bones rehash of both Edgeworth and Gavin (Klavier), in that he was just sort-of a dickish “prodigy” prosecutor that was a dick but we were supposed to forgive him when his plot wrapped up in the final chapter (as opposed, naturally, to van Karma (Franziska), who was dickish but also clearly just a young brat, Godot, who didn’t really seem to care much whether he won or lost any cases and was generally just fucking with Phoenix every trial, and Blackquill, who had a kind of quite intensity about him (not dissimilar to that lurking underneath Godot’s easygoing façade), and was, of course, arrogant, too, but it’s something else when it’s a chained wolf we’re up against), which, like, for Edgeworth, that was one thing, because he managed to develop over the two cases that we experience him in before the finale, and for Klavier, that was another, and I know that a lot of people didn’t care for Klavier, but I, personally, liked that he sort-of felt like a blend of Edgeworth and Godot (with Edgeworth’s prodigy-fuelled invincible-feeling arrogance but also Godot’s easygoing nature, not becoming devastated when he lost cases), and I felt that he really did compliment Apollo the way Edgeworth compliments Phoenix, especially when Apollo was fairly headstrong and Klavier could be so cool, but, like, I can also get why people didn’t want a Rival Prosecutor who was sort-of just a blend of the past three (I forgot to mention the “vaguely European/studied in Germany” and “younger sibling” bits from Franziska), but, in any case, Sahdmadhi REALLY just felt like “There we go again”, and there were quite a few times where he felt like a Payne, which is not what I wanted in my main game, and I don’t feel like Storyteller did him any major props.
As for who I, personally, ‘d substitute in for him, the pickings are, admittedly, slim, especially for a case that has no Investigative phase (which is also, admittedly, a plus for this case, which otherwise might’ve been more memorable for being banal), and, considering the fact that Phoenix wouldn’t have been present, it just narrows the fairly small list of available Prosecutors to star in the Guest Role even slimmer, because, really, wouldn’t it just be weird to have Edgeworth without Wright? Obviously, I have no interest in having a Payne take this case, because we already dealt with a Payne at the beginning, and also it’s important to have a Guest Prosecutor who could still provide for the otherwise-completely-absent-from-this-game Athena, and so, personally, although I wouldn’t mind getting to actually go up against Lana Skye, I can’t imagine that she’d do much, especially when we would literally have no previous trials against her to reference this one with, and, for the one trial that has Athena in the game, it’s probably best to have someone that someone from Wright and Co. has already faced, in order to have something to build from, for this particular Athena (and Blackquill) vs Them instance, so I will have mark her out, and that brings the number of non-criminal (as opposed to Manfred von Karma, Godot, Jacques Sportsman, and others), living (as opposed to Jake Marshall, Byrne Faraday, and others) Prosecutors available to just Klavier Gavin and Franziska von Karma.
(Sidebar: I think it would’ve been incredibly fascinating if they decided to make Jake Marshall into a Prosecutor after the end of Rise from the Ashes (or whatever the hell that Turnabout was called), filling in his brother’s spot, but, since it’s said that Jake was really just a parallel to Godot as Lana and Ema were to Mia and Maya, I’m not entirely sure how interesting of a Prosecutor they would’ve thus made him, or if they would’ve then made him a Defence Attorney, but, in any case, that has little bearing on this current train of thought)
Now, I think both Franziska and Klavier would have things to bring to the table against Athena, and not just because all three of them appear to have been Lawyer Prodigies Licensed in Germany (Where There’s Apparently No Minimum Age Requirement), and, although I think it might’ve been interesting to have either Klavier or Franziska co counsel, that seems remarkably improbable, a little much, and, ultimately, would mean that there would be four flipping lawyers at-bar in the case, which seems like a lot much (as opposed to a little much), so I’ll tarry on under the assumption thus that only one can counsel.
For Klavier, it’s worth noting that Athena has met him before, is apparently a fan of his, and had a fairly solid rapport in their meagre conversations they had in those few meetings. For Franziska, it could be nice to see two incredibly young European-educated lady lawyers go toe-to-toe, and it’s also worth wondering whether Franziska would have any more “respect” for a sister solicitor, so-to-speak (although it’s highly doubtful, but still, we’ve never actually seen her against a female defence attorney (“Callisto Yew” doesn’t count)). Ultimately, although I do think that there are definitely some good reasons to’ve gone with the Fräulein von Karma, I have to say that, personally, I think that Herr Gavin would probably be the best fit against Fräulein Cykes (and can you imagine their random Deutsch expletives paired?!), and I think that that would’ve been a nice way of giving Sahdmadhi a break (whilst also bringing poor Klavier back out from the attic for a moment). I think that, with Klavier, it still makes a great deal of sense for Ema Skye to be the Detective in charge of the investigation (although back to that Lana point from earlier, now THAT could’ve been fun~) and given her a break from Sahdmadhi, and, besides that, I think everything else could’ve remained just about the same.
(Alternatively, if we were to go with the Fräulein von Karma, I suppose the ONLY thing to do would be to bring our wonderful Gumshoe back out to play Detective one last time, here, and that would be just ever-so-wonderful, but, unfortunately, with no-one else but Franziska present from the original trilogy, we’d have to introduce him to literally every other character involved, here, and that seems like a ridiculous hassle when he could literally have been brought back at just about any other given time when Phoenix was present (and wouldn’t that’ve been nice?)~
Anyways, all that to say that I think that I wouldn’t’ve minded Storyteller as much, personally, if Herr Gavin were the Prosecutor, but perhaps that’s just me; how do you think about it all?
@@iphaoftheisles3952my guy I think you meant to put this in your essay for English class
@@MortisBringerOfAss no that’s just how I write comments on RUclips and Insta
you don’t even wanna see what my emails look like, much less my essays~
I love Samurai, mostly because I find most of the characters likeable and the mystery is pretty good. My issues with Big Top and Recipe are that the characters aren’t as interesting and both feature such an obvious culprit (though I guess Dee was also pretty obvious but the method isn’t obvious, especially since the victim was the one who set up the crime). Still, I don’t find Samurai, Big Top or Recipe to be any more filler than something like the Stolen Turnabout which is the most tedious case of the OG trilogy imo.
Stolen isn't really Filler since you don't get the introduction to Godot without it, and trying to introduce him with the plot of Recipe would be weird considering part of the original premise is that he turned down the case because he knew about Xin Eohp, hence why Payne ended up handling the first run of the case.
@@espurrseyes42 Yeah, I don't think it is a filler case and I don't think there are any filler cases in Ace Attorney since it's an episodic series at it's core but if we're talking about a case's relevance to the overarching story of it's respective game, neither Stolen nor Recipe really add on to the whole Dahlia stuff in Trials and Tribulations and Godot's introduction could've theoretically been rewritten and moved to a different case if they had, for whatever reason, decided to cut Stolen out of the game (again, just theoretically).
HONESTLY Stolen Turnabout annoyed me so much
@@Me-io3wg Those cross-examinations had no reason to be that difficult for a 2nd case
Stolen Turnabout wasn't great and I didn't like Mask DeMasque's character at all. Especially because he was guilty for stealing but we proved him not guilty and pinned the crime to Luke Atmey, and even though we later prove Mask he was indeed the thief and our deduction was false he couldn't be put to trial anymore because of the rule that a sentence is final.
Still this case had recurring characters and Luke Atmey is one of the funniest characters and minor villains in the series with a banger theme
- The great ace attorney chronicles : "Are you sure about that ?"
I think without the third “filler” case, each game would end up feeling rushed and too fast paced overall. So them being the weak links may be true for certain third cases, they are still important in furthering the expansion of lore and developing character, be it small or not.
I think its also natural that the third case feels to have more investigating time, since the first is always the tutorial and you miss out on any investigating and the second tends show you the investigating ropes but not want to push you too hard into unfamiliar territory.
But these are all my opinion. I also agree the third cases all tend to be forgettable, but i am a forgettable person in general. Lol
Great video ^_^
I've come to the conclusion that the 3rd case problem isn't a problem. It reminds us that there are other people in the AA world besides the main characters and their associates. It would kind of suck ass if every single case involved Fey clan shenanigans or the DL-6 incident.
Yes yes I love that you explored this in high detail. This is why I love Apollo Justice as well as the dai gyakuten saiban duology. Without spoiling, every case has something to do with the story in some way, and you don’t realise it until things come together and you figure out why certain events were more important than they seemed. Other than that, third cases, even if not very good narratively or gameplay-wise, have been good for progressing prosecutor arcs. I mean, if we never had Turnabout Samurai, we never would have gotten our ‘unnecessary feelings’ line!! Turnabout Big Top was also good for Franziska, as I recall that was when she made clear that she was trying to get revenge for Edgeworth, not her father. And Recipe for Turnabout ...? Well not much I guess, but to be honest I did like that they foreshadowed not only that Godot can’t see red on a white background, but the way his goggles light up in darkness, both important facts for the final case.
Furio Tigre's shirt makes more sense in Japanese. It's a tiger devouring a dragon and Phoenix's Japanese name is Naruhodo RYUichi.
5:17 the shirt is symbolic because in the Japanese version of the game, Phoenix's name, Ryuuichi, is partly made from the Japanese word for "Dragon," so it's Tigre's animal motif devouring "Phoenix's."
I actually like Moe, like he's so bad that he's good, and when he gets serious he's definetley a decent character
Also Oldbag Sucks
I know right? I thought Moe was annoying at first, but as the case progressed, he kinda grew on me, especially since it became increasingly clear that he was smarter and more mature than he let on (penalty-inducing jokes notwithstanding).
@@CrowTR0bot I liked him almost entirely because I accidentally gave him a Kermit the Frog voice in my own run through the game.
@@Pokemonleafmon Really? I imagined him sounding like Roger Rabbit myself.
@@Pokemonleafmon I imagined him having a gruff chain smoker's voice lol
@@Pokemonleafmon I actually gave him a Curly voice from those Black and White shorts of the Three Stooges (I watched that a lot as a kid) But when he was being serious I imagine him being closer to the Anime.
I think Penny was a bad example. She shows back up in other games. Cody probably have been better
Or sal
Wait penny shows up later? When??
@@WorstDBDPlayer Ace Attorney Investigations 2. The final case in that game. She was even the one who found the body so had a fairly important role in that case.
@@Kylesico912x ah, I haven't played investigations 2 so that explains why
Yeah, she stood out to me in Samurai because her whole character is that she doesn’t stand out. Sal is definitely a more forgettable character despite having such a name.
Personally, I always liked having one case that doesn't contribute much to the plot, I enjoy the change of pace.
5:07 I just wanna remind people he had a similar suit and a fake badge and we all know how the judge is so its not that hard to believe it fooled him
Dude, 41 subscribers? I did not expect this at all from how well put together this video was.
IDK why, but the even the filler cases felt almost as fun as plot relevant cases to me, whether it be TA (Turnabout) Samurai, or TA big top, recipe for TA, TA Serenade, TA academy or Rite to TA
I agree. I don't think any case in the series is objectively bad.
@@tbone415 yea. It depends on your perspective. I always looked from Phoenix's client's perspective, thought how they are feeling, getting locked up for something they probably didn't do. I put myself in their shoes, and I felt like I NEED to solve the case, for their sake.
I would say Turnabout Storyteller is the filler case in SOJ, because Rite of Turnabout is very relevant to the main plot.
@@fawful9992 Yea, they decided to switch the case relevance format for the game, probably to make sure the case location goes in the Khurain -> Jaoanifornia -> Khurain ->Japanifornia -> Khurain sequence
I’m so happy the Great Ace Attorney doesn’t suffer the third case syndrome. The Mystery of the Runaway Room was fantastic
Recipe for Turnabout is honestly one of my favorite filler cases. T&T can actually be pretty dark at times, but Recipe for Turnabout was just a silly case that gave you a break from the seriousness. (Just my opinion tho)
Also Tres Bien Maya is adorable
Unpopular opinion: Recipe for Turnabout is better than Stolen Turnabout.
@@williamnathanael412 I love them both a bunch, but Imma have to agree with you there
no joke didn't even miss a beat with the asking who Penny is
The Great Ace Attorney is a strange exception. The third case is important for the main story, but the fourth case has no relevance. But since the second case is investigation only (no trial!), you could say, the third case which has trials has no relevance.
One thing to note however is that The Great Ace Attorney isn't like other AA games. Without going into any details, case 1 of The Great Ace attorney isn't just the 1st case of the game but also the 6th case in the story. In this way, you can see The Great Ace Attorney as two games that make one overarching story with a Part 1 and a Part 2. As such, it doesn't quite have the same structure as a typical AA game. Spirit of Justice is a better example of this situation. While a lot of people like case 4 of that game, it really has nothing to do with anything to the plot and only serves to worsen our perspective on the main rival prosecutor. It's just comedic fluff to stall for time long enough that the main plot can return and chaos to ensue. Plus, i think 3rd case syndrome is less about being the third case in a game and just a Middle case that either drags out, stalls, or detracts from the overarching plot despite the game being both episodic and story driven. I think a good compromise would be having these cases as bonus reward cases you can play at any time after case 2 so that people can enjoy them for what they are without feeling like the story's being drowned by their prescence. Granted, this doesn't work for the shorter games but it would help for the pacing of longer ones. I dunno I think at this point I'm just rambling lol.
Although the fourth case has little relevance in TGAA1, it is pretty important in TGAA2 though.
The third case in the first great ace attorney is my favourite in that game what a way to change third case syndrome
If I had a nickel for every time a series has the recurring theme that the third case is the weakest link I'd have 2 nickels which isn't alot but it's weird that it happened twice.
One of the positives of 3rd cases is that, for the most part, you get to do investigations with maya. Like sure, most turnabouts need to be plot-related, but give me some step-ladder arguments in between
Godot not seeing Red is even alluded to in 2nd case with a line.
i think that capcom took the existence of this ‘syndrome’ to heart with (most of) the rest of the series. all of the third cases after ajaa were good and/or relevant-or at least TRIED to be.
lots of spoilers from here on out, for literally every game but pw v pl.
- the kidnapped turnabout. introduced both of the memorable original characters for aai. they were trying a bit TOO hard to break the mold here-lang and kay should’ve been in the second case-but if anything that proves my point more.
- the inherited turnabout. F/CKING GREGWORTH. that’s all i need to say.
- turnabout academy. it’s um. the exception. but they did try to develop athena. tried. and it’s... about as good as the rest of the game...😬
- the rite of turnabout. HOLY SH/T. the rite of turnabout was an amazing case! they never do multiple victims! and the victims were the culprits!! AND THEY DEVELOPED THE DEFIANT DRAGONS SO THOROUGHLY!!!
- the adventure of the clouded kokoro. if you put it in my hands and told me it was the fifth case the ONLY question i would have is “why is there a tutorial for the jury mechanic then?” this case had so much depth, so much impact, they really just threw you STRAIGHT IN.
- the return of the great departed soul. KAZUMA ASOGI. K. KAZUMA ASOGI. KAZUMA ASOGI??? KAZUMA. and i guess it develops van zieks a whole lot. whatever that’s nothing next to KAZUMA MOTHERF/CKING ASOGI.
they have STEPPED UP their third case game and i think it’s at least partially because people noticed the pattern.
Appreciate the spoiler warning! I'll for sure come back to the rest of this comment when I'm done with TGAA (which apparently has an interesting 3rd case to say the least).
The Inherited Turnabout is a non filler 3rd case and it actually leads up to Turnabout Goodbyes
What game was that in?
@@WorstDBDPlayer Ace Attorney Investigations 2
Turnabout Serenade is probably the biggest case of "third case syndrome" besides Bigtop and I think it should've been brought up. Anything after the trilogy isn't talked about much on this channel so I guess a sentence or two would be enough. Games outside the trilogy too would be really cool tho
Big Top's mystery's conclusion was so fricking whacky that I honestly kinda respect how absolutely bonkers the whole thing is i couldn't of guessed any of that at ALL the method, the weapon, and the fact that he got the WRONG person?! MY GOD everything had to be SO exact in such an impossibly unbelievable way that it blows my mind
#1: I love Recipe for Turnabout, even if some of the witnesses are...and what do you mean no relevance, it has Maggey Byrde
#2: 2-1 is worse than 2-3, because 2-1 is basically lame tutorial excuse and doesn't introduce anything for new players, though to be fair only 2-2 has greater plot significance in JFA
#3: Turnabout Samurai would probably be fine if they just squished day 1 and day 2 together and got rid of the trading side quest
I think all of them is ok,just the gameplays are bad
What trade?
@@jatarokemuri5443 the trading side quest that you need to get the kid to talk to you... (you wait till oldbag gets back, however you do that (new players wouldn't even know) then you trade her the key card for the cards then you talk to the kid to find out he doesn't care then you (eventually) figure out to trade with Penny, from there you then trade with the kid. It's not that bad if you know about it but it's just padding for time honestly...
Turnabout Samurai is one of the best cases in the series imo. I'd say it's my favourite out of the first game. Or at least tied with Turnabout Goodbyes
funny enough the 3rd cases are some of my favorites in general, the fact that they have some separation from the main story line is one of the factors i like about those cases
Recipe may not be super important narrative wise, but as a comedic filler case I find it works very well.
I think they are filler cases, but necessary filler cases. They allow the prosecution to fully spread their personality out. It'd be kinda weird if, in the first game, you went from meeting Edgeworth and seeing he's a jerk and then suddenly having to care about him in the next case. 3rd cases help us get to know the prosecution more
That is definitely a good case against the existence of third case syndrome. I don't exactly disagree either.
I’m gonna be honest, I enjoyed every third case in the mainline series, a case doesn’t need to be integral to the main story/“not filler” to be good
(haven’t completed the spin-offs, but AAI1-3 was pretty enjoyable as well despite its infamous flaws)
i actualy forgot that the steel samurai case existed
Turnabout Samurai is the best case in the trilogy because it introduces my husband, Will Powers.
I will not elaborate further.
You do make good points, but there are a few things.
1. Turnabout Samurai being three days is emblematic of the first game having way worse overall trial pacing than the rest of the series. In the games after PW:AA, none of the trials actually reach they three day limit. They all wrap up before then for the sake of streamlining gameplay (and presumably the story as well).
2. I'd argue that filler cases genuinely do serve a purpose, even if they aren't necessarily plot-relevant: They provide a break in between the more intense cases. Having a chapter that is silly and that lacks the stakes of the overall narrative can benefit that narrative structurally by giving the audience breathing room to prepare for when things really hit the fan, especially in a series that deals with heavy topics like Ace Attorney. That doesn't mean that those filler cases can't be weaker in their own right, though.
I like how GAA not only makes the third case in the first game relevant to the overarching storyline, but BRINGS IT BACK as the second case in the second game which is the start of a precipitating event.
Wait isn’t 1-4 the case that’s brought back as 2-2? I haven’t finished 2-2 yet though so don’t spoil pls.
I basically agreed with everything you said in the video, and the quality of the video itself is very cool and good.
also your voice is incredible, i don’t know why I mentioned it but god I love your voice and just the way you say things is just so calm. You sound so professional, 10/10
You might have touched on this but the narrative reveal of Turnabout Samurai is the fact that it establishes the role of self-defense in the world of Phoenix Wright as a lead in to the fourth case
The music in turnabout big top is bad and a year ago I would’ve said well it’s circus music that’s hard to make good then the man who masterminds the game started and I had a thought how did you do this it’s absolutely amazing with the mastermind villain theme mixed with carnival music it’s perfection
Interesting good video. So glad my recommendations recommended a good one. I love the AA series, and yeah the third cases were very much filler arc or like breather episodes before the dramatic big finale cases. I think the only third case I like was Turnabout Samurai just for the music. It's iconic
I thought the title was talking about Danganronpa honestly and did not expect Ace Attorney out of all games to have third case syndrome.
Ngl turnabout samurai and recipe for turnabout were my faves. I actually preferred them to the story focused ones.
would easily die on the hill that turnabout samurai is one of the best cases in the entire franchise, and the first game doesn’t have a single bad case, that said though, the third case in almost every other game is usually the one i dislike the most in /that/ game for different reasons
The reason the Judge messed up Furio and Phoenix is because he has Godot syndrome, makes sense; change my mind.
But if it wasn’t for Turnabout Big Top we couldn’t have seen a monkey straight ballin. (He didn’t fake the funk on a nasty dunk)
What's great is that in DGS, the third case of the first game is definitely one of the best if not the best case in the entire game
I'm happy the DGS duology managed to break free from the filler third case syndrome.
Yes....there's no filler case- every case is connected
This video made me realize how much of the original trilogies plot I've forgotten *sigh*
usually, i can play case after case when it comes to ace attorney, but i always give up and abandon the game once i reach the 3rd case. its always the longest and the most trying. i still remember how tiring it was to go back and forth in the big top clown case. i just went back and forth and back and forth for what felt like hours on end. same with the other 3rd cases from the trilogy. i forget about the game for months and when i come back i need to use a guide to help me get out of where i was stuck because there was no way i would be able to figure out how on my own.
also, good video!
Ooh! One thing I really like about the final moment in TT Case 3 is it can be seen as an inspiration for Apollo Justice, and the changing court system in-game. The necessity of firm evidence being the only way to convict or defend someone being planted in Nick’s mind from this moment, stewing more and more after his debarment for 7 years.
5:02
None of them. Ever. This is actually canon. In Turnabout Memories, Grossberg mentions that the judge is called The Great Judgini because he somehow always ends up with the correct verdict, lol.
Well, in the Recipe for Turnabout he did convict an innocent person.
@@xela4183
There's also the big event surrounding 1-5.
recipe for turnabout is my favorite non finale case in the trilogy and i feel like they arent that bad as the third cases are supposed to have a fun cast and setting with a out there murder which they all do so i love the third cases plus whats wrong with a filler case it would be stupid if every case was all connected and unrealistic
Love this video! I'm so glad I found an Ace Attorney fan channel, especially one that overanalyzes every detail of the games bc I do that constantly but don't produce the footage to make my point! It's also great to hear diverse opinions about the games. For a recommendation, I haven't seen your video on why Franziska sucks in Justice for All yet, but she's my favorite character, thanks to her character development in momentum from Trials and Tribulations and Investigations (the fact that Edgeworth and her are definitely siblings and how she's avenging him in JfA, that she may still have a trauma after getting shot, how sensitive she gets when a young girl she identifies to criticizes her... And the fact that her whip is a comedic effect in Japanese shock culture, that is her main way of keeping everything under her control). As I said, i overanalyze as well, but don't actually record myself doing it, so we might not share the same opinion but I'd love to hear yours!
Thanks! You should totally make videos of your own too! As long as you have the time, and things to say why not? That's why I made this video here, even though I'm less proud of it now (as all youtubers are of their first).
Penny Nichols is genuinely my favourite character. She just wanted to get shit sorted
5:28 I think this trick is kind of used again in 4-1 with the fake bloody card to compromise Kristoph into revealing that the evidence is "legit", but it's not played out as being a big deal like in 3-3
Recipe for Turnabout is the best 3rd case in my opinion. It’s truly one of my favorite.
if you are including other games in the franchise turnabout acedemy is better
@@aniyuvan Well without a doubt, yeah. It’s great and I freaking love Athena but we’re talking about the trilogy so Recipe for Turnabout wins regarding that. If we were to include the other games, Turnabout Academy for sure
Recipe for turnabout was a great one, but I’ve always had a sweetspot for turnabout samurai so that would probably be my favorite 3rd trial
@@techinalmachine Turnabout Samurai is a good one too! I just feel like Dee Vazquez didn’t need to do all that though. Hopefully her defense attorney in-universe labels it self defense when she goes to trial for her murder
@@nkdubuisson don't forget that Vasquez was a mobster, who was about to ruthlessly unleash her minions to "erase" both Phoenix and Maya
Other people have talked about the symbolism with the Tiger devouring a Dragon on Furio Tigre's shirt, but also, it's just a really obvious yakuza guy's "cool shirt" to wear when he wants to look good and also let people know what's up.
Apollo Justice also suffers the same issue big time but it was good to see for DD and SoJ that third case syndrome was wiped out, Turnabout Academy in particular. It still had the concept of being disconnected from the main plot for the most part, with the only real tie-ins to the rest of the game being a prequel to Juniper Woods who we met in the first trial and giving us the proper understanding of the Dark Age of the Law trope that's present throughout, but it did so well considering the sordid history case 3 has always had.
this is really cool! i like ace attorney please talk about it more maybe a comparison of defendants or villains or smth?
While I do agree with this, imo Turnabout Bigtop was meant to show that even though the circus people are... shady, at best, Max didn't deserve to go to prison just because people don't like him and maybe think he should. The truth is paramount
short and to the point. i like it!
Good video! I will say though, as much as some people dislike 'filler', I actually really appreciate it and I generally like the third cases. As someone mentioned below, for gameplay purposes they serve as the medium difficulty transition, with longer sections and more tricky investigating.
Moreover though, in terms of narrative, they're just a nice breather. Cases 4-5 tend to be really heavy so I do appreciate having a relatively light-hearted case. Some games more than others; Apollo Justice arguably has Cases 2 and 3 both fit the archetype, and Spirit of Justice has the admittedly only average Case 4 serve, but regardless of where they are, I do think a small breather before the finale really helps.
Personal ranking of ALL 3rd cases (except VS PL and DGS2, which I had not played)
9. Turnabout Big Top
8. Turnabout Serenade
7. The Kidnapped Turnabout
6. Turnabout Samurai
5. The Recipe for Turnabout
4. The Rite of Turnabout
3. Turnabout Academy
2. The Adventure of The Runaway Room
1. The Inherited Turnabout
Very good video. I think Turnabout Samurai is best 3rd case. It feels more cohesive and relevant. Most of Recipe for Turnabout is relatively annoying to me but it's still great all things considered
I like the third cases they felt more chilled.
Those missions are needed for levity. I loved these cases, because it lowered the stakes for a bit, and gave the characters time to just relax and have fun. Especially the circus mission, Maya goes through hell in JFA, that mission was much needed to split it up. All 3 of them do that, with JFA just being the most severe case.
And here I thought I was the only one who had mixed feelings on most case 3s. For me that includes the newer games as well, but this is about the original trilogy.
I think case 3s suffer from length more than anything. A lot of case 4s, I’ve noticed, tend to be on the short side and are easier to digest and enjoy, at least for me. As long as they’re in a game with a case 5, of course.
I personally liked Big Top, and I guess it’s mainly because I didn’t really dislike the characters as much as others do. I think seeing the circus members show reverence for their ringleader helped make a common thread between them. Moe is more of an eye-roller than a moaner, and he does show his serious adult side in the second day of the trial, for the blonde girl’s sake (already forgot her name tbh). Acro I definitely felt for, and he’s still one of the most unique and likable culprits in the series.
I did not like Recipe for Turnabout. A lot of the characters were annoying (e.g., Victor Kudo) and the reasoning behind the case just got ridiculous to a point I stopped caring trying to even follow it. Furio Tigre is a cool concept but debuted in a disappointing case for me, so I don’t care for him too much. Plus, yeah, people like the judge thinking he’s Phoenix is... silly. This is frankly my least-favorite case in T&T, and probably the original trilogy.
I think my favorite case 3 has to be the one from Dual Destinies. That was probably the most solid case 3 I ever played, and it has decent relevance to DD’s story. Spirit of Justice also has a good case 3, but there are a number of issues to it.
Something I think would be really interesting to discuss, particually in the instance of Reunion and Turnabout, would be what the original Edgeworth cut of JFA would have been, before Franziska was created.
My friend and I played the first AA game a while back (I had played before, she hadn't) and tbh, I would have probably told her to just skip Turnabout Samurai if it wasn't for the "Unnecessary Feelings" scene.
I don’t think it’s really “third case syndrome” as much as it is “filler case syndrome”. Filler cases aren’t usually as interesting as cases involved with the main story, and third cases just tend to be filler cases (usually the only filler case of the game). The first case is a tutorial and helps set up the plot. The second case further establishes the storyline and introduces the main characters of the game. We take a break from the main storyline with a filler case for the third, then finish off with a really strong fourth case. Of course there might be some other cases, filler or not thrown in there, but generally that’s the formula that ace attorney follows. The filler cases are kind of at a natural disadvantage, since they aren’t meant to push the story or characters forward as much, and therefore aren’t as memorable or emotionally driven. I don’t think that’s a bad thing necessarily, it just is what it is.
1:04 “the judge is an idiot” what else isn’t new?
Turnabout samurai also introduced will powers who came back in "farewell my turnabout"
Good video. My listing of third case syndrome.
1. Big Top
2. Turnabout Samurai
3. Recipe for Turnabout
No disrespect for Recipe for Turnabout, but honestly it was the most forgettable to me. It had it's funny moments, but it honestly felt the most tedious to me. Not because it was bad, but because I knew there was something much better the game was building up to. It's like trying to watch One Piece's Thriller Bark arc. Sure, it's a fine story. But we all knew there was a better story right after.
Turnabout Samurai is good and is a classic case in my eyes. However it also has it's forgettable moments, though to a much lesser extent than Recipe. At least this case progressed Edgeworth's character.
Unlike most people, I thought the circus characters were hilarious. There are so many times where I was laughing at the silliness of the whole thing. Again, no disrespect to Recipe, but there were various times in Recipe where I was just bored and looking at the clock. Big top kept me entertained the entire time. Now yes, the love triangle is sus as hell. Aside from that however, I like the circus characters. And then there's Acro. What more could be said about him? He's one of my top ten best Ace Attorney villains.
I thought you were gonna say "The reason is Wendy Oldbag" XD
I feel like the 3rd cases aren't meant to truly further plot, but instead further out experience for both Wright and the prosecutor. It's for us to see extra feats that Wright and the game's prosecutor can make.
Edit: Recipe for Turnabout is one of my favorite cases due to Furio Tigre by the way. Guy's an amazing villain. Just a shame he wasn't called Phoenix Wrong at all
I have a soft spot for turnabout samurai, because other than edgeworths development, it was basically there to let us get to know maya
OBJECTION! Recipe for Turnabout was the most enjoyable episode to play. IMO it was the only episode that I enjoyed the investigations more than the trials.
The Third Case always is that one that offers so little to no plot to the main storyline, along present very colorful high-pitched characters that are part of entertainment.
But god what SoJ offered us as the third case...
I like to think the shitty Third case is to make it so that the Finale would be all the more better.
Great Ace Attorney: "I have no such weakness"
Great video!! I'd love to see more of this content
Edit: I just realized this video is over a year old lol whoops
It's weird I like most of them
1-3: I like it
2-3: Really Bad
3-3: I really like it, entertaining
4-3: OH GOD I HATE IT
5-3: Really nice case. The bond between friends and the characters were charming
6-3: eh
Umm as far as Tigre admitting his own murder, to some degree so did the killer in the case RIGHT BEFORE IT, he literally was free to go and then had to mention what the defendant was wearing at the time which he couldn't have known unless he was there
Ironically, the third cases of The Great Ace Attorney are the most important cases for the plot, and i love it xD.
Is a huge improvement.