Thanks for the review, Captain. I remember someone on a RUclips video mentioning that magic missile is a guaranteed hit. I'm misquoting them, but same meaning. Thanks for going briefly into the history of magic missile. I didn't know it being a guaranteed hit wasn't the whole story.
Agreed, we have had page numbers and indexes since the 1460s, they are not some fancy new-fangled technology, so why don't RPG books use them, that and a good table of contents. Another pet peeve is PDFs, they should have clickable TOCs and indexes too.
Thank you for the kind words and review. I appreciate your praise. p.s. Last name is pronounced Teigeler (Tie-gler). Thanks buddy! keep up the great videos.
I was looking for an S&W review, and was not expecting to find out there is now a revised edition. Oh, my poor wallet! (I say that because I'm also saving up for the Cairn 2.0 Kickstarter as well as the Fragged Kingdom Kickstarter, among other gaming wants) That said, I think I can still pick it up...💸 Thanks for the review!
OSE has great formatting but I guess this feels a bit more lived-in somehow. I really appreciated all the side notes and options, and given Finch's background I have decent confidence that it's got above average clarity and conciseness relative to others. The price for the PDF made it a reflex buy for me.
I've had no issues finding anything in S&W and I like the layout. OSE is probably the pinnacle of OSR for layout though, although I prefer to run and play S&W rules
Great review as usual. I've been a big fan of S&W for a long time, I backed the Kickstarter, and I'm looking forward to starting a new S&W campaign soon. I've been running OSE for a couple years and I'm getting a little tired of it. I actually find it a little too restrictive. As you say in your review, the wording in S&W leaves little room for ambiguity but lots of room for creativity. I feel like it's a game that allows me to say "yes" to my players more, instead of "No, it doesn't work like that." It's also great to see Matt bringing his game back home to his own publishing company. I look forward to many more great products from Mythmere Games.
There is no need to have an index for spells if they are in alphabetical order and the 2 pages saved could have been used for a general index which in prior edition appeared to be less than 2 pages if the screenshot is right.
I greatly appreciate the updated review, Cap'n! As much as I agree that an index and more monster art would have been nice, printing restrictions meant that exceeding 144 pages would have required a jump to 152 due to the total page count needing to be a multiple of eight. It seems that the decision was made at Mythmere to pack as much extra gaming content as possible into those 144 pages instead, such as the new random castles section and morale rules. A tough call to be sure, but one I can understand and support.
Its a great game, and I can totally live without it. Interesting the way things work in publishing, when you want add four more pages but it actually means adding 8 black pages to make it work out. Completely understandable!
Professional indexers charge $3-$4 per page on average. So an index for this would have run around $500. Given how much Matt raised on the KS, that hardly would have shattered his budget.
Its a good book, but I do have some nit-picks. The single saving through for PCs could have been used as a nice target number for task resolution checks. But the Paladin's saving thrown bonus is encoded into the number, rather being a separate bonus like all the other classes have. I would have rather seen the Paladin's bonus NOT be encoded into that save number. Also, the layout is definitely inferior to OSE, especially for the PC classes section. OSE has a nice even 2-page spread for each class. In this S&W book, the Paladin class (for example) starts at the bottom of the Monk section. It just looks clunky. Finally, there are some errors in the book that should have been caught. On page 80 for the wilderness rules, it mentions a 1 in 6 chance to get lost, AND it lists percentile chances of getting lost. These things contradict each other. I believe Matt Finch said that the reference to the 1 in 6 chance should not have been included. None of these are huge issues, but a few tweaks would have made the book better. Just my opinion.
Since the paladin's saving throw bonus is presumably supposed to represent nothing less than divine favor, I see no reason it couldn't be applied to other situations as well. Having god on your side covers a lot.
Here's a list I made a while back of what I consider to be the major differences that might impact actual play. In general, it's more full-featured, closer to OD&D than ever before, and has a much improved layout. The following specific items are in no particular order: 1. Monsters have new stats: Number appearing, % in lair, and morale. 2. There's a new optional 2d6 morale system that's essentially the same one used in B/X and BECMI D&D. 3. More concrete guidelines are given regarding encounter checks and getting lost in the wilderness. 4. There's a new section on generating random wilderness strongholds. 5. The random treasure generation method in Revised is completely new. It tends to call for fewer rolls than the old one and gives better odds of magic items showing up. 6. There are guidelines for costs and times involved to research new spells and create magic items. They're fairly close to the ones in Men & Magic, but also incorporate the popular Holmes set method of scroll creation. 7. A few classes were tweaked slightly. Fighters now have a base saving throw of 15 instead of 14 at first level and get a +1 to save against everything except spells. Monks now require minimum wisdom and dexterity scores to access their full suite of abilities. Thief ability values were changed ever so slightly (87% chance to climb walls at first level instead of 85%, matching Greyhawk). 8. I believe there are eight or so new monsters, including the nightmare, otyugh, and a few varieties of dinosaur. 9. Magic item tables were updated and corrected somewhat. Magic bows are now listed, for example, instead of only ammunition. 10. Intelligent weapons now include a mechanic to represent the classic "ego clash" scenario. 12. Many cleric spells now have their Chaotic/evil reversals described. 13. Experience point values for higher level monsters have been increased. 14. Combat movement rates are increased. A character in plate mail now moves 60'/round instead of 20', for example, which is more in keeping with the one minute rounds of OD&D.
The hardback is beautiful--a joy to hold and thumb through. Swords and Wizardry balances thoughtfulness with respect for the history of the game in a way that is surprisingly difficult to pull off. It is a wonderful ruleset and an illuminating book to read, whether you play it or not.
I love the original version of S&W so I am down to get the Revised Edition. I definitely want to use this for a mini campaign for my gaming group eventually!
One of my favorite systems.... I play using the most modern optional rules they have, but it still keeps the oldschool feeling. A shame this edition has no index. Can you recommend any good scenario and campaigns published for it? I was wanting to run a game for some friends, and I wanted to run something premade because of time and I was wanting to try something new, I'm kind of tired of some of my scenarios and supplements. But they have a lot of stuff, Lost Lands, Razor coast, Midderland, etc... I don't know if you ever played any of it, but I was hoping for an informed suggestion. Perhaps you should make some videos reviews of modern modules too, like the reviews you make for old D&D modules. I would definitely like to watch. Thanks, and cheers.
That's a good question. You should check either your backer kit or log on to your drivethruRPG account and check your messages... which is what i did MONTHS later... and was like oh cool, i forgot about that!
Was flipping through the book, and noticed that under Druid, the book states "Race: Only humans may be Druids.", but then promptly shows a picture of a pointy-eared elf-woman druid next to it. :/
Not sure what you're referring to. The druid picture on page 12 is definitely not an elf (or a woman). The fighter illustration on page 15 matches that description, but is very clearly not part of the druid entry.
Out of all the OSR systems I've been looking at, S&W seems like it's the best (Castles & Crusades looks pretty good too but isn't a real OSR clone I guess). I still disagree with a lot of the OSR values, and changing Race to Ancestry seems like an unnecessary change to anyone who is a real fan, but I like how S&W feels closer to AD&D (which until recently I didn't know the OD&D white box had supplements that added things like that before AD&D came out) than a standard B/X clone.
Great review. While the spell index is cool, I'd much rather have a complete index. Unless it's a super rules-light game, or formatted in such a way that everything can be found on a one or two page spread (Old School Essentials) it's kind of annoying. Picking this revision up after your review, even though I have the complete book and box set. Great rules set!
Not having an index in an RPG book is TRULY frustrating. I backed this product, as did many, many others, and this request was brought up on a number of occasions... WHY was it simply ignored? It blows me away when this happens. Just put a stinking Index in a book. A missed opportunity that did not make any sense.
Page count, from what I understand. They had set up for 144 pages. Thus, a four page index would add 8 pages, as what you add in the back you have to account for in the front. I understand the issue. Still a bit frustrating.
Hi! Great review as usual! I would like to see a direct comparison from you between S&W and OSE. I know you mentioned it briefly but I don't think going up through level 20 is a good thing or more "complete" unless some party really enjoys power-gaming. Cheers!
The main advantage of having that higher level content is greater compatibility with material made for non-B/X editions of the game. The DM isn't left high and dry every time a reference to a level 6+ cleric spell or level 7+ magic-user spell appears in the text of a module, for example. Published adventures intended for level 15+ characters were very rare early on, but several were eventually created to support the later BECMI sets, and S&W will run these just fine.
I am afraid an index is a must-have to me. I understand about the page count, but I would take more concise content and fewer pictures for a good working index.
You're making it out to big a much bigger challenge that it actually is. It's not the Bible. The game is so short and so simple, with most of it being alphabetical listings, that it's not actually challenging to reference in the least. Want to find Charm Person? Opening the spell chapter and heading to the Cs is literally just as fast as checking an index would be, if not faster. Same for classes, monsters, magic items, etc. Combat rules are only a couple pages. It's really no hassle with just the ToC.
What is that? An INT 3 can understand 4th level wizard spells? Barely on the high side of average INT 11 can do 6th level, and one spell level higher for each +2 INT? Crazy.
It's based on the page eight of Greyhawk, which is actually a little more generous. A three intelligence will let you cast up to fifth level spells there. Stats really aren't as important in OD&D as they are in later editions.
Bought into the kickstarter because I love Osr books but I just didn't dig it the way I do Old School Essentials Advanced.. sadly it didn't grab me so another dust collector I'll never play
I was one of the first to get the physical book from the Kickstarter and while I like it overall they really missed the boat with the tiny font! I can't fathom why they still cling to the outdated style of ancient text. It was difficult to read when I was 14 and basically impossible to read now that I'm in my 50s. Honestly the book will probably just go into the pile of books I'll collect but probably never use.
Gotta admit, as much as I love Swords & Wizardry, this book was a bit disappointing. The layout isn't great, especially with how much he crams the spell and monster descriptions together. The printing seems light and the font is lousy. And the artwork is sub-standard, even for S&W, which has always had hit and miss artwork. The game itself is fine and there are a couple improvements, like generating treasure, but overall this seems like a missed opportunity to draw new people into the game. But maybe that's not Matt's goal.
I could disagree with your evaluation more. Nothing seems 'crammed together'. Its easily referenced, and there's a whole section in the beginning on what role playing is, the OSR, Dice and Dice notation. Seems very noobie friendly to me. Not sure how you come to that conclusion.
It's light printing and not attractive. There are hardly any images. Look at some of the other new Old School RPGs out there and the presentation and layout is FAR superior. This is actually a step backwards. I do like the new character sheets, however. And the game itself remains excellent. But this was a bit of a missed opportunity. And hanging out on some of the S&W forums, I'm not the only person who feels this way. @@captcorajus
I purchased it, but I absolutely the hate the class art, and the awful bracketing style. S&W Complete had a much better layout and design. I think they flopped on this, honestly.
I want to love this guy, but he is just so inconsistent with his reviews. I have stepped away for a long time and came back when I saw this review, but I feel I will be stepping away again.
Thanks for the review, Captain. I remember someone on a RUclips video mentioning that magic missile is a guaranteed hit. I'm misquoting them, but same meaning. Thanks for going briefly into the history of magic missile. I didn't know it being a guaranteed hit wasn't the whole story.
Agreed, we have had page numbers and indexes since the 1460s, they are not some fancy new-fangled technology, so why don't RPG books use them, that and a good table of contents. Another pet peeve is PDFs, they should have clickable TOCs and indexes too.
I did neglect to mention that the PDF IS fully clickable and hot linked.
Thank you for the kind words and review. I appreciate your praise.
p.s. Last name is pronounced Teigeler (Tie-gler). Thanks buddy! keep up the great videos.
I like to listen to/watch reviews of rpgs. Yours are at the top of the list, for clarity, consistency, and value! 😊
Appreciate the recent likes. Thanks, people. Hope You're October is being fun.
I was looking for an S&W review, and was not expecting to find out there is now a revised edition. Oh, my poor wallet! (I say that because I'm also saving up for the Cairn 2.0 Kickstarter as well as the Fragged Kingdom Kickstarter, among other gaming wants) That said, I think I can still pick it up...💸 Thanks for the review!
OSE has great formatting but I guess this feels a bit more lived-in somehow. I really appreciated all the side notes and options, and given Finch's background I have decent confidence that it's got above average clarity and conciseness relative to others. The price for the PDF made it a reflex buy for me.
My thoughts exactly! There is still a lot of clarity here, and its easy to reference, but still accessible to newbies.
I've had no issues finding anything in S&W and I like the layout. OSE is probably the pinnacle of OSR for layout though, although I prefer to run and play S&W rules
Great review as usual. I've been a big fan of S&W for a long time, I backed the Kickstarter, and I'm looking forward to starting a new S&W campaign soon. I've been running OSE for a couple years and I'm getting a little tired of it. I actually find it a little too restrictive. As you say in your review, the wording in S&W leaves little room for ambiguity but lots of room for creativity. I feel like it's a game that allows me to say "yes" to my players more, instead of "No, it doesn't work like that." It's also great to see Matt bringing his game back home to his own publishing company. I look forward to many more great products from Mythmere Games.
There is no need to have an index for spells if they are in alphabetical order and the 2 pages saved could have been used for a general index which in prior edition appeared to be less than 2 pages if the screenshot is right.
I greatly appreciate the updated review, Cap'n! As much as I agree that an index and more monster art would have been nice, printing restrictions meant that exceeding 144 pages would have required a jump to 152 due to the total page count needing to be a multiple of eight. It seems that the decision was made at Mythmere to pack as much extra gaming content as possible into those 144 pages instead, such as the new random castles section and morale rules. A tough call to be sure, but one I can understand and support.
Its a great game, and I can totally live without it. Interesting the way things work in publishing, when you want add four more pages but it actually means adding 8 black pages to make it work out. Completely understandable!
In the OD&D rules magic missile required a 'to hit' roll.
Professional indexers charge $3-$4 per page on average. So an index for this would have run around $500. Given how much Matt raised on the KS, that hardly would have shattered his budget.
You learn something every day.. like the fact that such a profession exists...
Thanks.
Agreed.
This was one of my favorite reviews to do this summer. The game is amazing!
Thanks for informing me about this game!
Thanks 👍😊😊
I appreciate the like from whomever and the heart from the captain. Thank yous.
Awesome
Its a good book, but I do have some nit-picks. The single saving through for PCs could have been used as a nice target number for task resolution checks. But the Paladin's saving thrown bonus is encoded into the number, rather being a separate bonus like all the other classes have. I would have rather seen the Paladin's bonus NOT be encoded into that save number. Also, the layout is definitely inferior to OSE, especially for the PC classes section. OSE has a nice even 2-page spread for each class. In this S&W book, the Paladin class (for example) starts at the bottom of the Monk section. It just looks clunky. Finally, there are some errors in the book that should have been caught. On page 80 for the wilderness rules, it mentions a 1 in 6 chance to get lost, AND it lists percentile chances of getting lost. These things contradict each other. I believe Matt Finch said that the reference to the 1 in 6 chance should not have been included. None of these are huge issues, but a few tweaks would have made the book better. Just my opinion.
Since the paladin's saving throw bonus is presumably supposed to represent nothing less than divine favor, I see no reason it couldn't be applied to other situations as well. Having god on your side covers a lot.
for Ramians.Skyrealm of JORUNE.
What are the differences between the revised and the original S&W?
Here's a list I made a while back of what I consider to be the major differences that might impact actual play. In general, it's more full-featured, closer to OD&D than ever before, and has a much improved layout. The following specific items are in no particular order:
1. Monsters have new stats: Number appearing, % in lair, and morale.
2. There's a new optional 2d6 morale system that's essentially the same one used in B/X and BECMI D&D.
3. More concrete guidelines are given regarding encounter checks and getting lost in the wilderness.
4. There's a new section on generating random wilderness strongholds.
5. The random treasure generation method in Revised is completely new. It tends to call for fewer rolls than the old one and gives better odds of magic items showing up.
6. There are guidelines for costs and times involved to research new spells and create magic items. They're fairly close to the ones in Men & Magic, but also incorporate the popular Holmes set method of scroll creation.
7. A few classes were tweaked slightly. Fighters now have a base saving throw of 15 instead of 14 at first level and get a +1 to save against everything except spells. Monks now require minimum wisdom and dexterity scores to access their full suite of abilities. Thief ability values were changed ever so slightly (87% chance to climb walls at first level instead of 85%, matching Greyhawk).
8. I believe there are eight or so new monsters, including the nightmare, otyugh, and a few varieties of dinosaur.
9. Magic item tables were updated and corrected somewhat. Magic bows are now listed, for example, instead of only ammunition.
10. Intelligent weapons now include a mechanic to represent the classic "ego clash" scenario.
12. Many cleric spells now have their Chaotic/evil reversals described.
13. Experience point values for higher level monsters have been increased.
14. Combat movement rates are increased. A character in plate mail now moves 60'/round instead of 20', for example, which is more in keeping with the one minute rounds of OD&D.
The hardback is beautiful--a joy to hold and thumb through. Swords and Wizardry balances thoughtfulness with respect for the history of the game in a way that is surprisingly difficult to pull off. It is a wonderful ruleset and an illuminating book to read, whether you play it or not.
I love the original version of S&W so I am down to get the Revised Edition. I definitely want to use this for a mini campaign for my gaming group eventually!
One of my favorite systems.... I play using the most modern optional rules they have, but it still keeps the oldschool feeling. A shame this edition has no index.
Can you recommend any good scenario and campaigns published for it? I was wanting to run a game for some friends, and I wanted to run something premade because of time and I was wanting to try something new, I'm kind of tired of some of my scenarios and supplements. But they have a lot of stuff, Lost Lands, Razor coast, Midderland, etc... I don't know if you ever played any of it, but I was hoping for an informed suggestion.
Perhaps you should make some videos reviews of modern modules too, like the reviews you make for old D&D modules. I would definitely like to watch.
Thanks, and cheers.
this is a little silly to ask here so I apologise but how do I find the coupon for the POD if I kickstarter'd the revised edition?
That's a good question. You should check either your backer kit or log on to your drivethruRPG account and check your messages... which is what i did MONTHS later... and was like oh cool, i forgot about that!
@@captcorajus just checked, found it! thanks! I had only checked my backerkit when it was on the DTRPG notifs
@@user-jq1mg2mz7o Cool! Glad I could help!
update: wow DTRPG's POD is fast. just received my copy in the mail today
I have the paperback with Erol Otis painting on front, do I need this update?
A fantastic review of an awesome game that I’m currently enjoying very much! 👍 👍
Looks cool and I’ll probably pick it up but I switched to OSE from the complete book and I don’t see switching back. Should be stuff to mine though.
Was flipping through the book, and noticed that under Druid, the book states "Race: Only humans may be Druids.", but then promptly shows a picture of a pointy-eared elf-woman druid next to it. :/
Not sure what you're referring to. The druid picture on page 12 is definitely not an elf (or a woman). The fighter illustration on page 15 matches that description, but is very clearly not part of the druid entry.
Out of all the OSR systems I've been looking at, S&W seems like it's the best (Castles & Crusades looks pretty good too but isn't a real OSR clone I guess). I still disagree with a lot of the OSR values, and changing Race to Ancestry seems like an unnecessary change to anyone who is a real fan, but I like how S&W feels closer to AD&D (which until recently I didn't know the OD&D white box had supplements that added things like that before AD&D came out) than a standard B/X clone.
Great review. While the spell index is cool, I'd much rather have a complete index. Unless it's a super rules-light game, or formatted in such a way that everything can be found on a one or two page spread (Old School Essentials) it's kind of annoying. Picking this revision up after your review, even though I have the complete book and box set. Great rules set!
Not having an index in an RPG book is TRULY frustrating. I backed this product, as did many, many others, and this request was brought up on a number of occasions... WHY was it simply ignored? It blows me away when this happens. Just put a stinking Index in a book. A missed opportunity that did not make any sense.
Page count, from what I understand. They had set up for 144 pages. Thus, a four page index would add 8 pages, as what you add in the back you have to account for in the front. I understand the issue. Still a bit frustrating.
In support of more illustrations - what if you're camping, out of mobile reception, but did bring your game stuff with you? :)
Hi! Great review as usual! I would like to see a direct comparison from you between S&W and OSE. I know you mentioned it briefly but I don't think going up through level 20 is a good thing or more "complete" unless some party really enjoys power-gaming. Cheers!
Also, I pointed out the introductory section... it goes over dice, and notation. S&W is really a great choice for complete noobs to rpgs as well.
The main advantage of having that higher level content is greater compatibility with material made for non-B/X editions of the game. The DM isn't left high and dry every time a reference to a level 6+ cleric spell or level 7+ magic-user spell appears in the text of a module, for example. Published adventures intended for level 15+ characters were very rare early on, but several were eventually created to support the later BECMI sets, and S&W will run these just fine.
@@willmistretta @captcorajus That's an interesting perspective. Cheers!
Are Erol and Earl pronounced the same way?
I always thought Erol Otus was pronounced ERR-awl OH-tuss
ALL HAIL THE INDEX !!!
I backed this KS and what I dislike about the book are the glossy pages, makes reading hard from the glare, and I don't like the feel of the pages.
I got my Kickstarter premium book in the mail a few weeks ago. I love OSE but this may have dethroned it.
❣️ *promo sm*
I am afraid an index is a must-have to me. I understand about the page count, but I would take more concise content and fewer pictures for a good working index.
You're making it out to big a much bigger challenge that it actually is. It's not the Bible. The game is so short and so simple, with most of it being alphabetical listings, that it's not actually challenging to reference in the least. Want to find Charm Person? Opening the spell chapter and heading to the Cs is literally just as fast as checking an index would be, if not faster. Same for classes, monsters, magic items, etc. Combat rules are only a couple pages. It's really no hassle with just the ToC.
Ad&d retro clones: i have osric
What is that? An INT 3 can understand 4th level wizard spells? Barely on the high side of average INT 11 can do 6th level, and one spell level higher for each +2 INT? Crazy.
It's based on the page eight of Greyhawk, which is actually a little more generous. A three intelligence will let you cast up to fifth level spells there. Stats really aren't as important in OD&D as they are in later editions.
Bought into the kickstarter because I love Osr books but I just didn't dig it the way I do Old School Essentials Advanced.. sadly it didn't grab me so another dust collector I'll never play
I was one of the first to get the physical book from the Kickstarter and while I like it overall they really missed the boat with the tiny font! I can't fathom why they still cling to the outdated style of ancient text. It was difficult to read when I was 14 and basically impossible to read now that I'm in my 50s. Honestly the book will probably just go into the pile of books I'll collect but probably never use.
Gotta admit, as much as I love Swords & Wizardry, this book was a bit disappointing. The layout isn't great, especially with how much he crams the spell and monster descriptions together. The printing seems light and the font is lousy. And the artwork is sub-standard, even for S&W, which has always had hit and miss artwork. The game itself is fine and there are a couple improvements, like generating treasure, but overall this seems like a missed opportunity to draw new people into the game. But maybe that's not Matt's goal.
I could disagree with your evaluation more. Nothing seems 'crammed together'. Its easily referenced, and there's a whole section in the beginning on what role playing is, the OSR, Dice and Dice notation. Seems very noobie friendly to me. Not sure how you come to that conclusion.
It's light printing and not attractive. There are hardly any images. Look at some of the other new Old School RPGs out there and the presentation and layout is FAR superior. This is actually a step backwards. I do like the new character sheets, however. And the game itself remains excellent. But this was a bit of a missed opportunity. And hanging out on some of the S&W forums, I'm not the only person who feels this way.
@@captcorajus
I purchased it, but I absolutely the hate the class art, and the awful bracketing style. S&W Complete had a much better layout and design. I think they flopped on this, honestly.
I love the class are, the brackets are a winner to me.. but I hope you enjoy the game!
@larrycamo5824 Sorry to hear that. But different styles are what make art so great to look at, I hope to impress you in the future.
10/10 Agree. The art style of revised just isn’t good.
@@delteigeler-illustrator2099I think it’s great. Just saying.
I want to love this guy, but he is just so inconsistent with his reviews. I have stepped away for a long time and came back when I saw this review, but I feel I will be stepping away again.
Got any examples?
I love you too brother. Appreciate the comment though! I would LOVE to know where I'm inconsistent though!! Have a great day!
Bye Bye. :3 Nobody cares.
I shook my head when he couldn't even get the details of Magic Missile from Moldvay correct.
It’s too bad the cover is so ugly