that is actually really refreshing to read! like all songs I've ever written, and why I haven't written in a long time, because I try to force myself into a convention.... but liberation from these conventions is where innovation comes alive and that is where the magic happens! and anyway, isn't that what we come back for, these seemingly unrelated ideas, blended together, creates the intersectionality of ideas that make the song or genre what it is, and so unique, something we can't live without because it was so good
That's such a beautiful Em D G riff in G, but then you had to go and push it into D like some kind of absolute madman. It hurts my heart, but your playing is so beautifully creative that I can't stay mad at you.
Dude the power of my ear when remembering something is immense. I was randomly jamming (in a completely different tuning) and played the example riff note for note from this before recognizing it and spending 30 minutes trying to figure out where it was
Question: Why would you think the key is D rather than Em? Seems to me that if we’re starting there, then naturally that should be the I, the root? So perhaps it makes more sense to be in E Dorian?
check out the notes surrounding the first chord and/or note. Lots of musicians use a different chord in the key other then the I chord. Biggest example is coldplay who generally start on the IV. It all depends on the notes around it though.
I’ve now done the same thing twice and accidentally played a riff from this song while in a different tuning. Except this time it’s actually a bit different so maybe it’s not just copying?
I'd like a V2 of this episode. First off, thanks for this video and your whole project, really appreciated, so don't think I'm dogging you, please. But, while this video does cover some issues/ideas with turning a line/phrase into a song... I don't know, maybe I'm burnt out on youtube, it's been a painful and painfully long morning, but I don't know, this vid wasn't concrete enough for ME. Like, these ideas are helpful to ME and apparently others, but this is not what I'm lacking in terms of my struggle with putting songs together (not exactly in this style, same chords, but a little more psych oriented). You don't really talk about song dynamics. Like, what a song is. How a song works. On a macro level, above the technical of key sigs and chord progressions, but the arc that a song takes. Of course it is variable, but there are patterns, just like there are patterns of chord progressions. I'm aware of them, but I have difficulty mustering them when I have a riff, or start from a riff. So, songs work in terms of anticipation/tension, and release, like any other dramatic art form. I'd like to hear your considered thoughts on how to achieve this effect of tension and release, and how to use it within the whole song arc, and within sections of a song. So, from a macro level, just the conceptual considerations, then delving into the mechanics of music theory on how to achieve those larger components of a song, and the song itself. I'm asking you to teach ME (and, I think, I hope, us) ART. There are a range of theories about this, of course, from you can't teach art, to art is just an algorithm, and the whole spectrum of theories in between. I feel like a damned up waterfall. I'm bursting with riffs that I REALLY like, but I'm missing something on the larger conceptual scale that is preventing me from turning those killer riffs into killer songs. I feel like there is a keystone, and if I just removed that keystone, the whole damn would crumble, and I could get this music out of me and cast into the all devouring, empty vacuum of our anti-culture (meaning, completely ignored, or never found, lost in the din of grey noise which is the human cacophony of amazing sounding music, produced in unmanageable, indecipherable quantity). But I'm fine with that. I just want to get these songs out, fixed in a tangible medium of expression, so the people they're for can access them, before I die, or become incapable of constructive thought/expression, and the clock is running down very quickly. There are many videos on YT about song writing. I have watched many, and haven't found them very helpful. A few, but, I don't know, their info didn't stick with me. People who attempt to teach this info often assume too much knowledge on the part of the viewer/listener... somehow. I think they can't remember what it is like not to know what they've learned about song writing. Like teaching someone to play a console game, you may be expert, but you don't even know what buttons you are pressing to achieve your good results, the interface has become so transparent. Well, the interface, music theory, and the damnably tiny fretboard is anything but transparent for me, in terms of crafting the larger arc of a song. I suppose if there were a drummer I could work with, that would all change. Drummers are so vitally important to those all powerful concepts of tension and release within phrases, sections, and the song itself. But it's so hard to find the right person, back in my band days, we burned through drummers, on average, on a monthly basis. There is no scene where I live, I just don't meet any drummers, or if I do, they're already in bands. I'll put the violin down now. Thanks.
Start recording them. Whatever ideas you have, start recording them, and constantly add or take away sections and repeats and ideas as you see fit. If you’ve got Garage band, or anything like that, you can set up rudimentary versions of your ideas using midi, and then show them to people who actually play those instruments and see what they think. It’s one thing having a vision of the music you want to make, and another thing to sit down with music software any try and build those ideas, using midi as an approximation for your ideas. There’s lots of free samples etc there to get started, and that whole process will Make you a much better musician over all on guitar, especially if you can make your riffs sit with a groove, and be in time. And having to write these parts, and have them all relate back to what your doing is the real challenge. But if you spend some time making approximations of what you want other people to do and play over, When you do finally meet the musicians and go out into a scene where you feel you can connect with people, you’ll Have the technical knowledge to guide the people you play with to the vision you want to get out of them. Music is just as much about collaboration and community as it is about a grand vision for what you want to produce. If you’re struggling with finding a scene and have great ideas you want to get down. Get into production and making your music sound about right. So then when you do meet people, who want to jam with you (keep going you will find them eventually) you’ll be able To hang with their instruments and show them what you want from them. Production makes you a really Good all rounder and more adaptable to a jam setting and a setting where you’re recording your ideas.
A lot of finding your voice on the instrument, is about following the question “does it sound good to me” as Infinitum, and theory can help or hinder that process. The scariest realisation of art and organising music is there is no prescription, and only suggestions of what you could do next. At the end of the day, you have to start recording, and adding ideas and asking yourself “does this sound good? Do I like what I hear?” And adding or subtracting based on how you answer that question. You’ll get you own art if you follow that process. Watching other people’s approaches will Only take you so far. You have to start making your own
I'd say in most genres of music it is typical for a repeating chorus, but math rock is one of the genres which is also likely to not have a repeated chorus. In most genres it is pretty hard to think of an example off the top of your head, but in math rock (and midwest emo which is my preference) it is pretty easy to find one. I rationalize this in that math rock is more experimental and less keen to sticking to the beaten path in terms of song structure. If you choose to go with a repeated chorus then your song will likely come across as more poppy, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. If you don't have a repeated chorus then your song will probably come across as more meandering and contemplative. But actually I think in most cases you can identify a motif or repeated idea that can arguably be considered a chorus even if it isn't so obviously a chorus by typical pop standards.
Not always, really depends on the writer I guess. With Mountains I just kept writing section after section with not much thought to the structure until I had all the parts. It was more 'what felt right' for each section of a song 👍
@@MattMcConaha this is a great response, especially the end. It makes so much sense. I think you can maybe see the distinction in Sharks Keep Moving vs Minus the Bear. Overlapping musicians, but MTB is a bit poppier in the way you describe, though still have some song with a nontraditional "chorus" section. Braid is another band that comes to mind, but I might have to think a bit to see how it would fit, since they tended to have more distinct chorus after their first few releases.
I know this is a sorta dumb question. But when you hit around 3:00. Are you saying like, the two notes of the riff you are hitting is already actually part of a chord. And therefore you're basing your chords off of that? Edit: Also. You didn't end up really using the chords you originally chose based on the riff. (Not the extended part.) So my question is, did you pick out those chords so that it makes it easier to find a key? And also would you recommend a precursor video before getting to this video? Sorry lotsa questions ^^;
I think I was using the JHS morninf glory for this video. There's also two amps. One is always running in clean. I've not yet got ot to where I want it but I'm almost there 👍
@@LetsTalkAboutMathRock Okay thanks! It really makes that tele sound great. I've been struggling to get a higher gain tone to use as a step over my regular overdrive sound. Your tone always sounds so perfect!
each key has a unique amount of accidentals (sharps and flats) - one way is to look at the accidentals in the chords and see which key has that amount of sharps or flats. looking at the circle of fifths is useful for this
If a song does not use an exotic scale, the semi tone intervals can only be in two places since we already know there's one between the G and F#: B and C (key of G major/E minor), or C# and D (key of D major / B minor) Once you know which other semi tone sounds best, (he chose C#-D instead of B-C), then you assign your modal title based on where you believe in your heart of hearts the tonic for the song lies. If you believe in this song the heart of the song is G, and you choose to use C# instead of C, then your G mode must be Lydian.
Learn how to write math rock songs from one riff here: bit.ly/3LEcb2Z
The tried and tested math rock method is to make 5 riffs then string them together, the awkwardness of the transitions gives it that "prog feel"
Haha! Too true 😅
that is actually really refreshing to read! like all songs I've ever written, and why I haven't written in a long time, because I try to force myself into a convention.... but liberation from these conventions is where innovation comes alive and that is where the magic happens! and anyway, isn't that what we come back for, these seemingly unrelated ideas, blended together, creates the intersectionality of ideas that make the song or genre what it is, and so unique, something we can't live without because it was so good
I’m not familiar with the genre. Is this biting commentary or sarcastic hyperbole?
@@UnchainedEruption Lil bit of both
This is exactly what I needed honestly, taking an idea and extending it into a full song is hard.
I can never get my ideas to connect smoothly, it really helps to use the same "base" chords as your riff does
Fuckin heard
PLEASE do more songwriting pointers, super needed for all the quarantine writers block most of us are going through
9:35 This one of my favorite songs from you. I listen to it alot. For those who don't know this is "Waves ."
Thanks and well spotted! 😎
STEVE IVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS VIDEO FOR YEARS
It's finally here! Only three or four years late 😅😅
That's such a beautiful Em D G riff in G, but then you had to go and push it into D like some kind of absolute madman.
It hurts my heart, but your playing is so beautifully creative that I can't stay mad at you.
This helps big time . Been struggling to complete songs ... I need to learn more theory
Dude the power of my ear when remembering something is immense. I was randomly jamming (in a completely different tuning) and played the example riff note for note from this before recognizing it and spending 30 minutes trying to figure out where it was
I opened RUclips with this in mind and it was magic
You’re actually a really good teacher
This is the most useful video I have watched about making riffs , thank you so much Steve. Please keep making these tutorials
The tone on that Tele is gorgeous man. Just found your channel a couple days ago and loving your tutorials
Thank you! And welcome
Super helpful! I like that you explain concepts from a theory and a "play by feel" approach. It's a subtle and sneaky way to teach theory haha
This!! Is what I actually wanted!! To be able to arrange my noodling into an actual song!!
Very nice, thank you Sir!
First riff is 45 - Shinedown :D
Yeah, i dont know how no one else is mentioning that.
Dude I literally thought that
Excellent video, this is the exact direction I needed. Thank you for posting all these free tips.
I am 1st.....😁😁😁😁
Love from Philippines...🤗🤗🤗
Your videos are amazing, and very enjoyable, as always. Thank you for this, I feel like I learned alot.
Cheers! Glad you enjoyed it. 😁
I'd like to add to the collection of requests for further song writing pointers. This was excellent.
Hype, thanks for this, I actually literally made up a riff like 2 hours ago and now imma try your advice lol.
love it steve, adding embellishments to simple chord progressions adds that beauty
Hey great video with cool tips ✌
I just grab a few riffs, smash them together and add transitions and boom there you have it, a full song.
Quisiera poder entender todo lo que hablaste que se ve que fue genial. Saludos desde Oaxaca México 🇲🇽
wow this is really helpful regardless of genre. Thank you 🙏
Question: Why would you think the key is D rather than Em? Seems to me that if we’re starting there, then naturally that should be the I, the root? So perhaps it makes more sense to be in E Dorian?
check out the notes surrounding the first chord and/or note. Lots of musicians use a different chord in the key other then the I chord. Biggest example is coldplay who generally start on the IV. It all depends on the notes around it though.
First sounds like shinedowns 45
Really great lesson, thx
great tips! as a beginner, i find it not so hard to understand now
God damnit Steve, you've done it again. Bless you, king
I don't know what I did, but thanks! 😅
i love this chords, these are used in mayonaise by Smashing pumpkins.
5:57, get that on a t-shirt, "Safe And Harmonious Together. Learn Music Theory Today!" 🤣
Love this 💗💓
Whats music feory?
Lol. What about a forf?
I’ve now done the same thing twice and accidentally played a riff from this song while in a different tuning.
Except this time it’s actually a bit different so maybe it’s not just copying?
Can't Stop, the Calculus version lol :)
lol!
thx so much 🌟🌟🌟
I'd like a V2 of this episode. First off, thanks for this video and your whole project, really appreciated, so don't think I'm dogging you, please. But, while this video does cover some issues/ideas with turning a line/phrase into a song... I don't know, maybe I'm burnt out on youtube, it's been a painful and painfully long morning, but I don't know, this vid wasn't concrete enough for ME.
Like, these ideas are helpful to ME and apparently others, but this is not what I'm lacking in terms of my struggle with putting songs together (not exactly in this style, same chords, but a little more psych oriented).
You don't really talk about song dynamics. Like, what a song is. How a song works. On a macro level, above the technical of key sigs and chord progressions, but the arc that a song takes. Of course it is variable, but there are patterns, just like there are patterns of chord progressions. I'm aware of them, but I have difficulty mustering them when I have a riff, or start from a riff.
So, songs work in terms of anticipation/tension, and release, like any other dramatic art form. I'd like to hear your considered thoughts on how to achieve this effect of tension and release, and how to use it within the whole song arc, and within sections of a song. So, from a macro level, just the conceptual considerations, then delving into the mechanics of music theory on how to achieve those larger components of a song, and the song itself.
I'm asking you to teach ME (and, I think, I hope, us) ART. There are a range of theories about this, of course, from you can't teach art, to art is just an algorithm, and the whole spectrum of theories in between. I feel like a damned up waterfall. I'm bursting with riffs that I REALLY like, but I'm missing something on the larger conceptual scale that is preventing me from turning those killer riffs into killer songs. I feel like there is a keystone, and if I just removed that keystone, the whole damn would crumble, and I could get this music out of me and cast into the all devouring, empty vacuum of our anti-culture (meaning, completely ignored, or never found, lost in the din of grey noise which is the human cacophony of amazing sounding music, produced in unmanageable, indecipherable quantity). But I'm fine with that. I just want to get these songs out, fixed in a tangible medium of expression, so the people they're for can access them, before I die, or become incapable of constructive thought/expression, and the clock is running down very quickly.
There are many videos on YT about song writing. I have watched many, and haven't found them very helpful. A few, but, I don't know, their info didn't stick with me. People who attempt to teach this info often assume too much knowledge on the part of the viewer/listener... somehow. I think they can't remember what it is like not to know what they've learned about song writing. Like teaching someone to play a console game, you may be expert, but you don't even know what buttons you are pressing to achieve your good results, the interface has become so transparent. Well, the interface, music theory, and the damnably tiny fretboard is anything but transparent for me, in terms of crafting the larger arc of a song.
I suppose if there were a drummer I could work with, that would all change. Drummers are so vitally important to those all powerful concepts of tension and release within phrases, sections, and the song itself. But it's so hard to find the right person, back in my band days, we burned through drummers, on average, on a monthly basis. There is no scene where I live, I just don't meet any drummers, or if I do, they're already in bands. I'll put the violin down now.
Thanks.
Start recording them.
Whatever ideas you have, start recording them, and constantly add or take away sections and repeats and ideas as you see fit.
If you’ve got Garage band, or anything like that, you can set up rudimentary versions of your ideas using midi, and then show them to people who actually play those instruments and see what they think.
It’s one thing having a vision of the music you want to make, and another thing to sit down with music software any try and build those ideas, using midi as an approximation for your ideas.
There’s lots of free samples etc there to get started, and that whole process will
Make you a much better musician over all on guitar, especially if you can make your riffs sit with a groove, and be in time.
And having to write these parts, and have them all relate back to what your doing is the real challenge. But if you spend some time making approximations of what you want other people to do and play over,
When you do finally meet the musicians and go out into a scene where you feel you can connect with people, you’ll
Have the technical knowledge to guide the people you play with to the vision you want to get out of them.
Music is just as much about collaboration and community as it is about a grand vision for what you want to produce.
If you’re struggling with finding a scene and have great ideas you want to get down. Get into production and making your music sound about right.
So then when you do meet people, who want to jam with you (keep going you will find them eventually) you’ll be able
To hang with their instruments and show them what you want from them.
Production makes you a really
Good all rounder and more adaptable to a jam setting and a setting where you’re recording your ideas.
A lot of finding your voice on the instrument, is about following the question “does it sound good to me” as Infinitum, and theory can help or hinder that process.
The scariest realisation of art and organising music is there is no prescription, and only suggestions of what you could do next.
At the end of the day, you have to start recording, and adding ideas and asking yourself “does this sound good? Do
I like what I hear?” And adding or subtracting based on how you answer that question.
You’ll get you own art if you follow that process.
Watching other people’s approaches will
Only take you so far. You have to start making your own
Lets fucking goooo
nice.
Is it normal in math rock not to repeat chorus again ? That's what i hear in your band mountains just like the "aphelion" song
I'd say in most genres of music it is typical for a repeating chorus, but math rock is one of the genres which is also likely to not have a repeated chorus. In most genres it is pretty hard to think of an example off the top of your head, but in math rock (and midwest emo which is my preference) it is pretty easy to find one. I rationalize this in that math rock is more experimental and less keen to sticking to the beaten path in terms of song structure. If you choose to go with a repeated chorus then your song will likely come across as more poppy, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. If you don't have a repeated chorus then your song will probably come across as more meandering and contemplative.
But actually I think in most cases you can identify a motif or repeated idea that can arguably be considered a chorus even if it isn't so obviously a chorus by typical pop standards.
Not always, really depends on the writer I guess. With Mountains I just kept writing section after section with not much thought to the structure until I had all the parts. It was more 'what felt right' for each section of a song 👍
@@LetsTalkAboutMathRock Thanks for the tip and also more power to you, Steve
@@MattMcConaha I'll keep that in mind, thank you very much!
@@MattMcConaha this is a great response, especially the end. It makes so much sense. I think you can maybe see the distinction in Sharks Keep Moving vs Minus the Bear. Overlapping musicians, but MTB is a bit poppier in the way you describe, though still have some song with a nontraditional "chorus" section.
Braid is another band that comes to mind, but I might have to think a bit to see how it would fit, since they tended to have more distinct chorus after their first few releases.
Might as well have a jamplay affiliate link plugged in there too.
Trying to hide that baby blue strat in the back ehhh?!?!?!?
I know this is a sorta dumb question. But when you hit around 3:00. Are you saying like, the two notes of the riff you are hitting is already actually part of a chord. And therefore you're basing your chords off of that?
Edit: Also. You didn't end up really using the chords you originally chose based on the riff. (Not the extended part.) So my question is, did you pick out those chords so that it makes it easier to find a key? And also would you recommend a precursor video before getting to this video? Sorry lotsa questions ^^;
That sounds like 45 by shinedown.
Steve, how do you get that kind of crunchy overdrive sound? It sounds so full and chewy.
mxr il tornio overdrive
It's not that pedal anymore, though it's still on of my favorites 👍
I think I was using the JHS morninf glory for this video. There's also two amps. One is always running in clean. I've not yet got ot to where I want it but I'm almost there 👍
@@LetsTalkAboutMathRock Okay thanks! It really makes that tele sound great. I've been struggling to get a higher gain tone to use as a step over my regular overdrive sound. Your tone always sounds so perfect!
maff rock
I still don't understand how you worked out what key it's in.
each key has a unique amount of accidentals (sharps and flats) - one way is to look at the accidentals in the chords and see which key has that amount of sharps or flats. looking at the circle of fifths is useful for this
Thank you~
If a song does not use an exotic scale, the semi tone intervals can only be in two places since we already know there's one between the G and F#:
B and C (key of G major/E minor), or
C# and D (key of D major / B minor)
Once you know which other semi tone sounds best, (he chose C#-D instead of B-C), then you assign your modal title based on where you believe in your heart of hearts the tonic for the song lies. If you believe in this song the heart of the song is G, and you choose to use C# instead of C, then your G mode must be Lydian.
1:50 WHATCHU KNOW ABOUT ROLLING DOWN IN THE DEEP 🥴
2:57
first time listening I thought he was covering “45”
i luv you
u actually walked the second chord up thru the minor scale but ur progression implies its actually major so idk
You remind me of Freddie highmore
When you accidentally write ‘Shinedown - 45’ 😅
I was thinking the same thing 🤣🤣
Why don't I see this on my list??? OMG!!!
I wish I was rich so I can show support
Bro..
Lol math rock is giegh
Oh my god people just go experiment, stop waiting for someone to give you a formula for writing good music 🤦🏻♂️
Oh boy, wait till he learns about jazz
@@Mieowsen your mom likes jazz