Why You Shouldn't Use Mid-Side Processing (all the time) 🔥
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- Опубликовано: 6 окт 2024
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In this video producer, mix and mastering engineer David Gnozzi talks about the most common mistaken in mixing, mid side processing, mid side eq and mid side compression and why you shouldn't use it as default and the problems that mid-side processing cna cause. How to train your ears to recognize the artifacts
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"Just because you CAN doesn't mean that you SHOULD". That's a very important lesson to learn, not only for mixing but for life itself. Thank you David, as always here following and supporting your work. Hugs from Spain!
Thanks brother! Big hug to you
The more I’ve had to turn out professional mixes quickly, the less I’ve found myself using any M/S processing. Just like you said in this: I’ll use it on non essential ear candy, big wide risers and space filling atmospherics. Basically any ornaments specifically tailored to having fun with stereo image. But all the essential stuff I need translating in mono, don’t use it
I typically use is sparingly. Mainly to carve room for bass out of mids in melodic elements if needed. The sound starts sounding weird if I use to much. I’m still learning though, no idea if it’s correct or if there are other ways to do it besides multiband compression.
You are a lifesaver! When you broke down the term "mid/side" into it's proper name, "sum/difference" - it immediately became clear. I almost ruined my mix trying to "mid-side" it to death, and it was actually fine! You saved me from overthinking it! THANK YOU!
There are so many potholes on the road to stellar mix. Thanks for sharing your knowledge without bs.ing around!
You're a blessing, David
I like Span by Voxengo. It does a great job showing the frequency range causing phase issues. Also, it's free... Reducing width or the frequency range causing the phase issue from the side or difference eliminates the problem. Thanks for all the great tutorials. Much appreciated. 👍
Excellent considerations...thanks for the heads up amigo!
For me, mid-side was sometimes used for orchestras or Live TV broadcasts or recordings to capture the sound of the hall or room. We would later decode the M/S mics. When I first started seeing M/S plugins I said cool, no more flipping phase to decode. I started experimenting with some of the Brainworx processors that I have and it was exactly what you’re talking about, especially on my 2-Bus or a lead vocal. EQ or compression yield the same results.
Thanks for another great video. You’re a great educator and mix engineer. I really love your channel and I’ve gotten plenty of great tips from you. Sometimes I watch a video just because you’re talking about something that I’ve been saying and doing for years and you’re the only voice of sanity. Other times I’ll watch because it’s something that I’m you remind me of, like breaking habits, like using the same go to techniques all the time. A lot of my habits are from growing up in facilities that only had 1 or 2 of whatever processors they had.
Thanks again for your great work! The shirt is a good idea lol. Button downs are definitely optional.
✌️❤️ - Tim
man the information you put on here saves us a lot of time and money i really appreciate brother 🙏
Thanks David, your videos are a treasure trove and much appreciated
🤔 Interesting I did not know this, cheers for pointing it out & explaining why 🙏
No bull and straight to the point as usual. Great video. Shirt looks good. : )
Your videos always help
By definition, the more the sides are emphasized the less you'll have in the middle. And the middle is where all the energy is. Never use m-s without considering this trade off first.
Thanks David, useful video. I do use M/S in mastering EDM, mostly hardware EQ and compression where am mindful to keep differences in processing between mid and side small to minimise artefacts. Recently used it to push mid of a track that lacked body, and that worked well. Your channel is great man, cheers.
Music is an art, if it's sounds good then it's good
Music is not JUST an art. And surely mixing is at least 50% science. Unless you're making music only you're gonna hear, if it only sounds good to you then no, it doesn't.
Like you said in an earlier video on Mathew Lane's DrMS, a little goes a really long way. Very down-to-earth and pragmatic, as always. A video on why LCR mixing and hard panning yields better results would also be awesome. I think that's something few people really have a grasp on, because they have some preconceived notions that hard-panning is bad. Also, that shirt looks classy as heck!
I hard pan fairly often but I don't think you can say LCR mixing provides better results like it's a fact. There's a lot of context to go with it and if you think LCR is better in most or all cases you should watch Dan Worrall's videos on the subject
Hard panning yields better results? You better be joking. I don't know much about the LCR
technique but panning has very little to do with achieving depth and movement in a mix.
And using hard panning in a mix will make it sound like shit when you listen to it on headphones or convert to mono.
@@asd2640 Completely context dependent, and hundreds of classic records would disagree with the idea that hard-panning in a mix can't translate.
@@AlexNiedt Show me one of those "classic records" and let's me hear it.
And I'm not talking about 1 sound hard panned on one side but there are other sounds on the other side. If that's the case let's not waste our time ok.
@@asd2640 You're aware of how many chart-topping songs have been mixed LCR over the last handful of decades, right?
the best use for me is to add defintion for the spaces the instruments need, take out lows on the sides if there isnt anything low being panned/stereo enhanced, fix phase alignment of the mix on effects like haas and delays as well, if i want to increase the stereo image i just go back to the mix and do it with pan pots or enhancers.
I see you at the gym all the time , I’ve been watching your videos for some time now !
Come say hi!
Yes, I knew and have been on about this or years, often getting flak just for stating how mid-side works. Thanks for sharing this.
It was the Abbey Road Mastering Chain I bought from Waves that introduced me to Mid-Side processing in the first place. I'll review this presentation to get some better idea about when it might be OK to use.
Yes!! Thank you David, can't wait
I thought I knew and I did (the theory).. but simply explained in this clear way I now REALLY understands the implications of M/S processing better. Thanks! very helpful!
I have been at this game on a professional level since 1976. Yours are some of the most valuable videos for new and even more advanced mixers and mastering guys. Good work.
Thank you!
i would love a part 2 with examples
Great video, David! Love your channel :-)!
I use M/S technique during recording acoustic guitar for example with two mics, one is a cardioid, second in figure of eight. That gives you a really nice, wide effect, without loosing the mid. Especially, when the acoustic guitar is the only instrument.
Other than that, I found the M/S can help to get the middle more focused also, or widen/boost certain frequencies in the high end. A lot of possibilities out there. And I mainly use it on mastering in the analog path, before hitting a converter. But as always, a little can go a long way!
Cheers 🍻
Man you just open my eyes. I was doing exactly what you explained and now I see why some of my mixes came out the exact way you said. Thanks bro!!! since I've been watching your content my mixes and masters has been coming out way better.
wow best video of 2022 that answers our question why MS does not sound good sometimes
Great advice as always David! nice shirt too, a tip to learn this is to M/S commercial tracks and listen to how they are processed...
This channel is a godsent. Greetings from the Czech Republic :-)
Very clear information, no-nonsense, to the point. Thanks for this! I have Black Box HG2MS and once it was on my master bus and I had all sorts of artefacts I did not understand. So I deleted the instance. Now I use it only on single tracks and am more careful when and how to use it.
Thank you for the class!
experience matters in all audio production and I agree only use it when you need it..
0:58 badass hahaha
Good advice, mate.
Personnaly when I use MS it's an EQ on a particular instrument/stem in my composition. Usualy double bass, some low synths or big low batlle drums/taïkos, just to "recenter" some low end.
Never on a whole mix.
Furthermore I should say that widening a whole mix is a mistake: Width exists only because you hear something in the midlle or on the close right or left, you need contrasts, you need to appreciate distances, locations.
(like loudness, if everything is loud everywhere in the bandwidth nothing is loud)
Great again David, it’s a confusing subject. Would be awesome to have practical examples, demos, to hear and see what the sideffects of M/S are (what to listen for), where it works and where it doesn’t. The wesaudio gear all have the option, I never used it coz I don’t understand
thank you❤
Really useful information! Lots of future accidents prevented....
Great video!!! Explained very well...and is something that I was always confused about...but didn't have the confidence to call out myself!!!
When i discovered mid-side processing i used to listen to my favourite songs and Switch between mono and Stereo. Learned some Tricks of it (like you said, the ear candy thing for example). But the Main thing i learned was: keep the mono mix tight, then in Stereo it will sound incredible. Not the other way around.
exactly, same applies with mixing in lower volumes, when the mix retains clarity in a low volume, when you raise it back it will sound incredible.
very helpful video
Eye opening-- thanks! Great video-- decent shirt
Nice shirt, violet or purplish colors will look good with the illumination of the studio.
Just a hobbyist here so FWIW... I'm amazed at how often 'the right way' comes down to pretty much 'Everything in moderation'
Thank you, very informative, caution required with mid size processing. Understood!
Mid-Side confused me a lot because of how people tossed it out and I couldn't figure out how/why/what for a while... Until I watched Dan Worrall talking about it. Then it all made sense why you would use it, and how, and why you wouldn't want to be using it all the time. It seems to be a scalpel, NOT a swiss-army knife. It is very specific to a certain thing and using it all the time would just be crazy. I've used it to improve mono compatibility on guitar tracks in dense mixes, I know people who have used it to push a wider sounding guitar through the sides before. But nobody who I've ever seen using it properly recommends it our-right. It serves a purpose, and should only be used with purpose, which is what you are saying here. There's a lot of change in how people consume audio and that is leading to people changing how they handle it on the mix end (binaural versus stereo for example)... but that's why it's even more important now to not take numbers and EQ curves and charts and apply them to your mix. You need to understand the why behind the how in order to make better mix decisions.
Bravo...still the best in explaining clearly. It would be nice also to give some fast paradigms in a real situation
Nice shirt! Can’t wait for the next Mixbustv purge 😅
Learned something here. Thanks.
Sharp shirt 👏🏻
Amazing explanation fantastic video
i slept on this dude 👏
Waitinggggg!!!
i find that mid side is indispensable for synths , i tried it with the stereo-shaper plugin of fl studio and it does a "black magic effect" to synths , strings , ambiance and rap background vocal !
I was hoping you would do this one day! Thanks man 💪💪
Thanks master.
I love your channel!
Thanks for the technical explanation. Sum, difference makes a lot more sense than mid, side. If I understand correctly then, the R signal is always inverted when the "Side" signal is created. I'm trying to wrap my head around some of the problems that can create, and I'm thinking that the L and R signals should be treated differently from each other but I don't know how. L doesn't seem to be a problem, just R. Do you have a video addressing the specific issues?
Fantastic content.
Excellent video.
Thank you for not being afraid to display equations.
Sum (M=L+R) and Diff (S=L-R) are close to epiphanies, my friend.
Thanks to you, I see more clearly how math and physics translate to music on the production-side.
Please, always keep the equations!
❤🔥
you so right !!!!!!!!!
Excellent explanations, as always! 👍
Thank you very much for this video. You answer for my question...:) I aware to use mid-side processing in mixing. I always have a mess in mixes after this.
It's true that a signal hard-panned to one side may seem to have only side components without mid. A signal with only side and no mid is actually a signal where the left and right signals are phase-inverted.
If it's stereo
Thank you. Very Informative
Great video, David! Love all your videos. You talk about training your ears to listen for the M/S phasing artifacts but you don’t talk about how to do that or what to listen for - I’d love to see a video about that.
Also, as far as stereo widening - I’d love to see you nerd out a bit and talk about the different flavors of stereo widening and what the pros and cons are. Like Waves Center, SPL Vitalizer, BX Stereo knob, blending in a parallel chorus/pitch plugin, a hardware elliptical filter, M/S EQ, etc. I’m sure there are a million different options but maybe explaining which of these fall into certain categories and how they can be beneficial or detrimental? Thanks David!
How to is material for private lessons and members, only so much I can give away for free. A video on the various wideners is doable, altho' I use analog for that
@@mixbustv I can respect that! Your videos are fantastic and well explained!
This video was packed with so much damn good info, especially that mid side overlap part. Never knew that. Always thought they would be truly separated.
Speaking of EQs and what not, I had a question come to mind the other day and would like your input on it.
If there’s a scenario, for example, where I want to make a piano’s highs be more present, which would you prefer?
1) EQ the piano to bring out the highs
2) Use a multiband saturator like Ozone exciter, FF Saturn or Wavesfactory Spectre and you saturate the highs
Assuming you can make them both sound very similar or practically the same, wouldn’t the saturation option always be better due to the added harmonic content and potential to translate better to smaller speakers, no? Or it doesn’t matter that much!
Side note: Yes, make those videos talking about and debunking those IG videos. It’ll be entertaining, fun and knowledgeable because we’ll learn WHY not to do certain thing. That “why” is important when it comes to understanding anything in life, and it helps people break from dogmatic approaches…..sick shirt too btw! 🔥
Thank you for your videos!
I have used the Ozone exciter on some mono mixes and they have translated fairly well. I may be completely off the mark here, but I find small speakers tend to be fine reproducing high frequencies. I still tend to use something like the tools mentioned in question 2 for highs just because I like the result. I get a little sparkle or sizzle without adding EQ. It doesn't always make it on to the mix, but I almost always try it.
@@threeforcegaming1769 I appreciate your response. You know, you might not be off the mark by mentioning speakers being able to reproduce highs pretty well, regardless. I was working on a mix that had a piano and that’s when examples 1 & 2 came to mind. I guess I’ll stick with 2 and, most importantly, that it sounds good to the ears 🙏🏽
this man knows too much 🤯 can you talk about using EQ on frequencies specific to the key of the song?
Thanks man! Yes I almost always eq based on notes, not much for the high range but mid and below, almost always. Weiss EQ1 freq selections are on precise notes (not many know this) and many eq have the little keyboard available, definitely something I do all the time
Love this channel. Sei il numero uno 😉
🤘🙏
hey dave,nice video..btw,pls make video abaout Phase Cancelling,Phase Flip/invert..thanks before
Shirt looks good David, #GucciGang
First off, I am new to mixing and mastering (started doing this April of 2020) and I was searching on youtube and google and all I saw was mid-side processing (how important it is to cut sides to keep lows mono) and it made since to me. Glad I saw this viideo which made me consider phase. Thank you!
Do not cut the effing lowd from your sides.. wait for the next video or watch one of the many videos in which I explain why not
@@mixbustv will do. Thanks again!
I find it useful to bring some guitars up with the mid/side adjustments....
Another useful recall to critic listening, thanks. I had to get into the mid-side processing when I tried to treat L and R through linked outboard compressors. Even if linked and knobs-aligned, there's no way to make them work exactly the same way. In L-R you can hear them because they move the sound direction. But if you work on a stereo bus splitting in M-S these little differences become more negligible and you virtually have one big stereo compressor. This is not M-S processing, maybe... L-R cheating?
First, usually you want a stereo compressor to work on your two bus, that's exactly why bus compressors are all stereo as opposed two mono. Second, if you switch to MS because you can't match LR stereo you're still compressing MS and not stereo which changes dramatically. But if you got nothing else, it's fairly easy to match LR with two mono, run sine waves, the run a digital meter after, you can get 1/10th if a decibel which is better than some stereo compressors.
interesting and informative
I never really used M/S, but now I am curious to its artefacts!
Ah interesting one… I need some info on this. Thank you!!!
The shirt is OG bro 😊
U look great yooo!
😄 thank you!
I've found only one nice sounding m/s eq plugin and still I use it gently - it's a Bettermaker 232D.
It sounds great on groups or stereo effects (if needed) and I use m/s mode as an creative effect, not a problem-fixer.
absolutely love the bettermaker 232D🔥🔥🔥
Great Shirt
just got an SSL fusion and some other hardware that use mid-side processing. should be an interesting video.
I've used a little mid side in mixes, but not much, basically because it sounded, 'odd', when I used it with EQ. But, I got some reasonbale results if I wound it back. In truth, that just shows up my lack of sophisticated ears. I watch this channel, to get better, but sometimes, I feel I'm still in the botton class, when I see the depths you go into on many topics. I guess I'll get better by osmosis, so keep em coming
Thanks👌
Shirt looks good ....but so do those distressors
I watched your 2 videos on cutting the low ends sides and this one.
Cool, but not imagery enough for me. lol. I would have liked to hear the effect (on transients or phasing) of this mid-side treatment and therefore its bad effect on an instrument to understand more precisely which frequencies are not good at separating.
Well as a beginner, I tried to cut the low ends sides with Fab Filter and even with a brickwall it doesn't work. (I opened a second fab filter EQ afterwards and to tell the truth there is a small drop in dB but not enough to cut the low ends). So if there is anyone who manages to do this BS: congratulations to them! Lol!😄
How I do it:
Put ozone eq as my last plugin on master and check mid and side info of the reference then I check my mix and try to get as close as I can, reverb tails, delays, what sounds in the middle what on sides and when I solo side info it should be balanced and clean and nice. So I play only sides of my mix and if something jumps out I find that sound or reverb send or delay and do some cuts only on side signal of that sound until I get it right for my ears. It's more like some tonal balance. I don't know it's right or wrong, I think it works)
You'd be better off using it to monitor and then adjust single tracks instead but eh whatever works for ya
@@mixbustv yep I will try it
... Thanx for your videos, I find a lot of answers here on your channel)
I added some m/s on a new dnb track and I'm about to remove it on a few elements when I get home from work. It took away from the life and richness on a couple sounds.
The shirt's dope. Been watching you five years, and never thought anything bad about your shirts, but this one is probably in the top 5 coolest shirts you've worn hahaha
Seriously though, your channel is great.
:D thank you
@@mixbustv Thank you! If I ever get out of debt, first thing I do is spend six weeks talking my wife into letting me spend any money and thus enroll in your mixing classes. I just write songs and want to record them, but not being able to mix them after is clearly a bad thing. Any progress I've made on that front is thanks to you.
Got kind of sidetracked because a month and a half after getting most of my recording gear in 2018, our youngest son, Adrian, was diagnosed with a very rare, seldom survivable, and ultimately fatal brain tumor we fought for 13 months. That kind of dampened my recording enthusiasm and eliminated my time. Then, as you can imagine, I wasn't feeling very "funky" after losing him (This is just an expression: I've never been funky). Our family is just starting to feel functional again, so I'm finally ready to get back on track with the music stuff, and knowing your channel is here to help is a great feeling. I started watching your channel the week I got my DAW, back when it was Studio One 3, not 5.5, so you've been in this with me in your way since I started it back up again.
What I'm trying to say is: no, man, thank *you*.
This will be another sticky!
In the past mid side wasn't a thing, it got created as a tool for certain needs, so we should use it only for those, and then, when possible, as a creative tool, but not more than that I think
I always love and use MS processing plugins or at least the ones that have this feature :) But I use themn very carefully and always ( without exception ) check in Mono in each step. I just love to have the control under my hand LOL.
Liked it even before watching! I know I need to see this
M/S came up out of old Radio Station Times. The only reason was to keep broadcasting flexible. So in order to have a signal you can broadcast as far as possible, the mono signal is used and as the signal quality was better the side signal was additionally added by the radio receiver. According to this more and more studio productions tried to follow the M/S Approach. To be honest, I see only a technical, historical reason, M/S was never invented to improve sound quality, so I would say as we are not really more relying on it, we could just forget about it LOL
Eek. If you get rid of mid and side signals, you have dual mono. It's what makes stereo, stereophonic.
David let me know if i heard you wrong but i dont think mid side is sum difference, the way i think i heard you say it - mono stereo is sum difference. The mid is not mono, it still has non summed information thats slightly (but not 100%) out of phase, or within 60 degrees center. Its only when you mono that you truly "sum" the signal, with most of the mids remaining and the sides completely canceling. Sides just mean signal thats 100% out of phase, while stereo is anything that thats out of phase (mids included). Mid side is not the same as mono stereo...
For all intents and purposes is the same thing, see every piece of gear double labeled one and the other
Thanks for the video, A quick question, my mix is muddy at the low end. I saw tutorials that suggested high pass EQ on the sides. I did it, and I have the impression that the mix looses widerness and depth. Yes it cuts some muddiness, but the end result is more flat and shallow.
How can I make more space in my mix, to remove this
lot of gall making this video immediatly after m/s processing your hair 🤣🤣
🔥🔥
Dropping this blurb before the video drops.
Trying a new technique on everything, including elements you wouldn't think to use it on, is a good way to really learn what that certain technique or process does constructively or destructively.
Some people think this is also how you should mix, and it emphasizes the destructive part hahahahha.
I do dense symphonic death metal with my own band and mid-side can help keep room for vocals with F6 on the orchestral bus. Or I'll use Center to cut all the mid out of an element that's primarily ambient and just filling space so it doesn't fill, like, the wrong space, or if I've got some big war drums or low concert toms and bass drums going, I might refocus the low end back towards the middle so it's not throwing the stereo feeling off balance (since I keep my samples panned after I print them so it still feels like everyone's seated like in a real orchestra).
That's about it that I've found works for me. I don't really understand the mid-side craze so I'm excited to see what this video has to say.
Thank you for the feedback, watching this video will most definitely give you a different perspective and make you more careful on the techniques you already use
@@mixbustv Follow-up: YES. This is great. I love the equation section. The explanation on the the guitar/vocal relationship is exactly why I never use mid-side stuff on 2-bus. For clarification, I was referring that I sidechain my vocals to specific, smaller bands F6 in mid-mode on my orchestral bus since the vocal is far more important (which I already keep my orchestral percussion separate, so the transient issue isn't as big of a problem as it could be). And my example with Center is EXTREMELY specific and I never use it on very forward elements.
Great video, and it gives actual analysis to why I already use mid-side extremely sparingly and, like you said, makes me even more careful. Great video, as always, thank you so much!
Essentially everything I do is stereo based on the styles of music I work with, with the occasional mono mix for some live sounding jazz stuff. I can honestly say that mid-side is less than 10% of my workflow.