A few people have commented saying this is a bit one sided and focusing too much on the LMPs. That's because it is. Yes the slower class cars occasionally have some blame, but let's remember it's the guy behind who has to execute the pass safely. It's unfortunate, but the sad reality is that just because people CAN pass, they think they should.
@@tomjakemcvey come on ur so smart you make a video then but dave is right the faster car has to get past the slower car safely the slower car just has to hold his line. yes the slower cars do make mistakes but the faster car needs to get pass safely
From iRacings Sporting Code: "In all cases, it is the responsibility of the faster car to safely overtake the slower car. It is the responsibility of the slower car to maintain a consistent line. It is strongly recommended that a slower car being lapped makes every reasonable effort to facilitate a safe pass." Funnily enough many GT drivers forget to read the entire section, as the slower cars also has responsibilities. Your incident at the kink is claerly the LMP2 drivers fault, but were you maintaining a consistent line? That situation would be more interesting to see from the LMP2 drivers cockpit view, it is all to easy to analyze things in a replay from the far chase view. What I am trying to say is it makes overtaking GT cars much more difficult when they are changeing lines. Opening the inside for the LMP2 driver only to close it very quickly makes it extremely difficult for a LMP2 driver to make a safe pass. Stick to one line and communicate this clearly with you car placement (something alot of LMP2 drivers suck at!). Your example with the Lambo into T7 I see totally different, maybe because I primarily drive LMP2s (if you hadn't already guessed that!) :) The LMP2 car makes a perfect overtake only for the Lambo to hit him. The Lambo driver needs some awareness of what is going on around him. And not only at the end of the race. If GT drivers expect only clean passes on the straights I think they need to se some IMSA or WEC races. The LMP2s need to be patient and the GTs needs to be aware meaning using their mirrors and the relative box. I also disagree with your assessment of what is enough time between to LMP2s fighting for position. Having 1-1.5 second to the car behind is nothing when encountering traffic. You quickly loose that meaning you have the car behind coming at you trying to take advantage of the situation. Does that then make it okay to make stupid moves ? No off course not! Nothing ever makes that okay, but if you understading is that 1.5 seconds between two LMP2 fighting for position is enough for them to take all the time in the world to get around you, your properly going to be surprised. The LMP2 driver could also have choosen another pit strategy, pitting when hitting traffic or pitted as he was caught behind slower paced LMP2s, in an attempt to gain time. So just beacuse a driver (no matter what class) are driving seemingly on their own in the middle of the race, ther are still fighting for position and want to overtake/be overtaken with the smallest timeloss possible. What I think is lacking in multiclass racing is respect. And that goes both ways. Often GT drivers complain LMP2 drivers split them when fighting for postion at the end of a race. And my counter to that would be, do you always let fighting LMP2 cars through when you have the time to do it at the end of a race? Because I almost never experience that. If you have a bad experience with another driver try and make them stay after the race and you can discuss the incident. Write them a PM on the forum and discuss it (in that case saving a clip of the incident is a great tool) or atleast try and experience what the other driver saw. Sadly in iRacings replay you cant see the mirrors, but as a GT car you can always take a cockpit view of the LMP2 drivers perspective, maybe you'll get wiser!? If you always blame the other driver or carclass for all incidents nothing will be learnt and that goes for all drivers of all classes. And always protest a driver if you feel he/she is driving recklessly, that is our only option at this moment.
I agree I could have taken my normal line through the kink, but my decision not to was completely dictated by the track positioning last minute from the LMP2. One second right behind me, the next pulling out as if he was going for the move. I've done my fair share of driving the LMP2 and know how frustrating it can be, but sometimes you get lucky with traffic, sometimes you dont. That's just the luck of the draw in multi class. All I'm trying to do is provoke discussion and maybe get people to think a little more, hopefully making it better for all of us.👍
How to multiclass as the faster driver: 1. Flash repeatedly, starting from as soon as you’re in visual range 2. Fire your car into an apex, despite the fact the guy in the slower car is already on his way there. 3. Call the other guy a moron on voice chat for the next five minutes. 4. Repeat for the next car.
Also really important is that the slower vehicles dont get a blue flag but a blue flag with a yellow stripe. Meaning you dont have to let him pass, but he has to make sure he can pass you safely. I have a feeling not that many people know that.
@Ibrahim memo for faster classes: take your time and don’t make slower classes feel like the only option is diving well out of the way... that’s all we ask 😉
This comment is sadly so freaking true. Those guys don’t have true racing spirits like us and no interest to learn the right way. It’s all right foot and how fast can I go. With zero racing IQ
Traffic management might actually be my favorite part of racing the LMP2. Having the right mindset is an important part of multi-class racing, and thinking of dealing with slower traffic as a skill to be honed rather than a necessary evil or a chore goes a long way toward making for both more enjoyable and safer racing.
You nailed it with the “my race is more important than your race”. That’s exactly what I experience. What’d they think, I can watch my mirrors, at 90mph, through a series of bends, whilst battling another slower car and anticipating what a faster car behind me is going to do. I can’t separate my eyes, i’m not a bloody Apache gunshot pilot! Gah, bad race tonight, can you tell? Im packing in multi-class. It’s always like that.
My theory is that the recent drop in multiclass manners has a lot to do with the rise of popularity and the esports aspect. A lot less banter, friendship and cooperation, and a lot more yelling over radio.
Hey Dave great video. Lmp2 drivers are really dangerous some times. I am one myself and sure some of my overtakes Will be tricky in a race but most of them I rather wait then Risk it. While I agree with almost all the incidents the one on 6:48 is the one I disagree with. The GT3 should see the lmp2 coming and could helping Them as well Just because its the fastest cars responsibility to overtake safely that doesn't mean you can just keep on racing as if there arent faster people out there. He is not racing anyone and the lmp2 is fully alongside him even past most of him on contact.
There is a couple good sayings everyone should think about, "To finish first, you first have to finish!" and "Treat everyone else on track, as you want them to treat you!" Being the faster driver, multiclass or not, gives you no right to drive through the slower ones.
From one Dave to another, love the channel now that I'm getting back into iRacing after a 6 year hiatus. Also, don't forget that even if the race isn't multi-class, the lower splits of a single class can be similar (big mix of experienced vs learning drivers leading to 3-4 second gaps in lap times). I think this applies there also.
Absolutely right, Dave. I took part in my first 12h enduro at Spa this weekend in bottom split, so it meant no multiclass but a big range of speeds. We came 4th and I drove the final 2.5 hours with good average lap times, but had to be suuuuuper patient to not throw away a good result in the final hours. There are more badly damaged cars at the and than there are at the start too, so you would also have fast drivers with compromised lap times. It’s amazing how your body language on the track serves as a strong form of communication, as DC mentioned. I’d only deploy the flash after multiple corners of being held up and drivers usually realised what my intentions were. My general tactic is to just wait and stay on the line, because that is usually faster and less risky than swerving all over the place. Another thing: I watch a lot of real motorsport and follow their behaviours. If people took note of how drivers act at Le Mans, Bathurst, Sebring, etc, then they would be getting along with a lot more cooperation. Treat each potential crash as a $100,000 repair bill and see how your own driving changes!
Well put, Dave. This applies to everything, not just multiclass. I practiced all week for the Porsche Cup race to be safe and comfortable, and I got taken out lap one by someone who was impatient when a wreck was happening in front of us. My race was over and he continued on... very discouraging. I'm ready for my road A promotion so I can't get in too many of those. In all honesty, most of these cars aren't that difficult to drive, and it baffles me how people can't keep from running into one another. Most of the incidents can be avoided if people are patient - and follow the "P.A.C.T." mentality!
Same thing happens in rFactor 2! Your absolutely right about how many of the "LMP" drivers think their race is more important than the GT's. All the LMP's can pass the GT's out of a corner due to the power & acceleration but most don't seem to realise this fact; or patient enough to wait and do so. Like your example of letting the racing LMP group through, most GT drivers will show the same sense when they are able to do so. Even though you lost time to the car behind... which had a negative effect on your race...? Good job Dave. Keep 'em coming!!
I agree with the points raised except the using the voice/text chat to communicate where to make moves. As you have said not everyone will have it on. Even if they have it on they may not be able to acknowledge it in time due to having focus elsewhere or a potential language barrier issue. I would emphasize using car positioning and flashing lights as clearer indicators to the other car(s) involved what your intentions are.
Hey! I am the LMP2 in the last clip. I know its my fault. I knew it the moment I about to hit that GT3. One millisecond I thought that GT3 would go to the right. But thinking that was 100% out of my mind and totally wrong. I apologized to him afterwards through the iracing forum. I know apologizing won't fix the damage but thats the least I can do.
At least you care man. Most people just get pissed off they had someone in their way. In all honesty, when I get ran over or punted, all I want is an apology, cuz if I do the same to you it will always be an immediate sorry from me, ya know?
Kudos for the apology and Importantly you recognised your mistake. The kink is a flat out (hopefully) corner where you are trying to keep your the car from tracking out of the outside of the corner, especially in a less downforce enabled car. The only way any car could have kept right would have been to lift in the middle of the corner (possible spin) or come in a lesser speed (probably get rammed from behind) The mind set should be to react to what is natural for a car to do in front. So in this situation the natural course of events the quicker car waits for the GT car to track out (it has too) and it should keep left for the run up to Canada corner and the quicker car has plenty of time to pass on the right. If this was a GT3 & GTE the GT3 may have had to breath to the run up to Canadian corner to let the GTE by to cooperate.
The main reason for the faster classes being impatient is the simple lack of understanding when it comes to a blue flag , they think it means the slower class should move out of the way , however in real multi class , the faster car will always be penalised for making contact while passing, the slower classes are told to keep to their line and the faster class will find a way around , that’s their job . Obviously there are times that slower classes can make it easy by slowing down early for a turn but they should never be bullied off line , if you have more downforce or speed then use it to change your own racing line
Very timely video and well said. We need people TEACHING and SPEAKING about multiclass racing and dos and donts more and more. I honestly wish everyone would watch this and reflect on their attitude. As a GT3 driver, all I want to do is stay safe nor ruin your race if you're in the other classes.
I have been doing a lot of races at Road America this week in the lower splits and seems the pact is already in place there, quite respectful racing. But like you said at the end: if you’re the slower car, signal your own intent as well and claim your place on the track. If I see an LMP2 coming and judge it to be very likely he’s gonna send it too late I move more to the middle of the track, which automatically gives him the message: send it and we’re both dead, your move. Works pretty well.
One point that I think is missing from this generally strong presentation: not everyone is aware of text or voice chat, and even if they are, not everyone can speak your language. But car position and light flashing are things every driver can understand.
I quit imsa officials probably a year ago. best decision I ever made. Then I went to F3. Then I quit F3 officials a week ago. best decision I ever made
Thank you for a great video. I watched this yesterday, and tonight I drove my first multiclass race (excluding week 13) in the Sprint. I had the Porsche 919, but I don't have the best pace, but I did a couple of nice (and safe) overtakes and got overtaken a couple times as well without incidents, and every time I was about to do a overtake on a slower class car I had your PACT in mind, showed some extra patience and overtook on the straights.
Spot on Dave. Patience is King. Your race at Monza in the LMP2 was great to show the new LMP2 drivers that patience always wins out in the end. You might lose out to a driver behind or in front because of being patient in passing a slower car but it all equals out in the end where the LMP2 in front might get held up a few laps later. It's a shame that some of the LMP2's behave like this and invariably its those inexperienced drivers who have bought the car because its faster than everything else so they think they own the road. And now, some of the GT drivers treat all LMP2 drivers the same way when these inexperienced guys cause trouble. ie with disrespect when slight mistakes are made or something.
What I find interesting is that some people think that flashing your headlights means “I am coming, let me through”. Especially at the beginning of the race when they got punted in T1 and are now behind me. Another frustration is, that nobody keeps a safe distance in lap one. I am not the fastest guy, so my brake points might be a little off, but instead of keeping a safe distance people just run me over, because they need to get to P1 in the first lap, even if we are the end of the field.
Don't want to say much, however 5:20, I am that GT3 being killed. While I could have done better (like have my wheel straighter), I was informed by the LMP that it was my fault because "you were 10kmh slower than other GT3s so I had to take a tighter line"
Shockingly bad on the P2's part. Either wait for the GT3 to track out to take the left, or let the GT3 have the racing line and pass on the inside of T14 if you're not close enough approaching T13.
@@sweetcynic8830 I was close because he braked more than he should ..... is it so difficult to understand? if he was cornering like a normal gt3 that is 10 km faster than he did the bend he was further away and widened and me I entered, instead it braked closing the trajectory, the gt3 does not follow that trajectory but widens .....
@@michelesangalli2335 As much as I understand your defensiveness and frustration, you made a bad move, simple as that. It seems like you're trying to justify it by over analyzing what the GT3 "should have done" or what the GT3 supposedly "did", when from the clip, the GT3 was on the racing line. It's as much on you to pass safely as it is for the slower class to remain on the racing line.
Great video. I’ve been running the IMSA Pilot series recently. After seeing this video, the ‘PACT’ is definitely something I will be promoting on track!
It's not only multi class that people need to be patient. All races they have to. I have been punted that many times and been told I shouldn't have braked so early. And when I catch up to them they are braking at the same spot or just a little bit later than me. It is the passing car responsibility to pass safely. Thank you Dave hopefully this thru to some of them people.
Great video Dave and I whole-heartedly agree. I'd like to add that some of those tips can go for single class racing also. As I put it, "Don't race stupid" , and that goes two ways. Sadly, I don't think we will ever see the end of the selfish style of racing because the guys that do it have nothing to lose. It isn't like the are going to get hurt, have to pay for damages to cars, or lose sponsors for being a tool on the track. At most they cry on chat a bit, call people names, and then get into another race where they can do the same thing. They never see that they are the common denominator in the very things they complain about.
Dave i have been having problems in the MX5 racing season, a lot of people intentionally wrecking people, and acting like they have no spotter, exactly what you were talking about at the beginning of this vid.
Dave, you're such a good ambassador for the service, thanks for this content. It would be great to see more on this topic of racing safely. The recent growth in population in iRacing has certainly diminished the quality of races on average. It amazes me that even in top split people don't know how to follow safely, they keep braking at the same points they use to, completely ignoring who's in front of them. Maybe that is a good follow up to this one, how to follow other people safely.
Speaking as guy who drives mainly LMP2: 1:55 Yes, pretty shit move from LMP, being unpredictible is the best recipe for accident. 3:59 Nice driving from him but he was way down the order and not battling anyone. This might've been main issue why he was so patient and went easy on all 3 GTs that he passed on this clip. Normally in his place I would go between you and BMW after kink (Personally when I do that I try to be so close to GT ahead, that this one behind me, who I just passed, doesn't lose too much time because of me), then pass BMW on the outside of long right and presumably pass last GT after second kink. In normal circumstances I think that would be safe for everyone and I wouldn't lose as much time as Galasso did. 5:18 Another shit move from LMP but connected with bad timing. In this place we can pass GT3s on left side after left-hander and before braking we're fully ahead of them. With GTEs it's more tricky and personally I'd wait there to pass on the exit of final corner, if this was GTE. Most likely if he was waiting a bit longer, the other guy behind would lose time trying to go for the same move or waiting to pass GT3 after final corner. But too early on throttle and race was over. 6:38 I think this wasn't too bad move. With bit of working together LMP can pass GT3 and both won't lose too much time. Since it was middle of the race, he might've want to catch up to people ahead who were slower or pull away from someone behind, who was faster and catching him. Staying there behind GT3 is costly for LMP, with GTE it's not as bad fortunately hence why LMPs are more patient there with GTEs. 7:35 Quite late move + it feels like he went pretty slow on the apex. If he coasted behind BMW and waited for corner exit, he would not lose too much time. 8:11 I agree there is no one to battle with at the time, but I think slipstream effect is higher in prototypes than in GTs. If there is up to a second between LMPs, slipstream is pretty significant and it's easy to stay behind someone, who has similar/slightly better pace. I guess this guy didn't want to have the LMP behind him back in slipstream but nonetheless as I said early, move was too late and in this scenario he should've wait for corner exit. Just wanted to point out what he might've thought and how slipstream works in LMP2s. 10:52 That's what I said early, that being LMP2 and trying to overtake GTE into this kink is pretty stupid and waiting doesn't harm you as much :D Nice work with being predictable on the exit of kink and moving away after the corner. I think though, that you didn't have to wait for Tae and you could've go with racing line after letting Andrew by. Tae should've had easy job passing you on the outside of long right-hander. 12:18 Another shit move from LMP. I don't even know what he tried to achieve: going for outside there is quite retarded. 16:08 It can be overused and I saw some situations, when GT did that move and it caused more confusion then it should've been there. Faster class would go for the move and no big harm would've been done. So if you're a GT driver and do that move, be sure you don't create too much confusion and that you make corner normally after that. I also saw a few times, when GT did that wave and then missed the corner completely. Overall this is very good video that can be shown to anyone, who wants to do multiclass racing. I hope that as LMP2 driver I also showed, how things can look from prototype side :D
I totally agree with this entire video. I have been guilty of killing GT3’s and GTE’s in the past but part of the time, it’s the slower class cars that do not hold their lines. It’s very hard to change lines last second without punting the slower car. Especially with unexpected darty movements
Fab video, Dave. Thanks for taking the time to put this together. Really interesting to see how the mind of a really decent, fair driver works, especially for those of us just embarking on multi-class races.
Hey Dave great video as always, Yeh at the moment multiclass racing is an absolute nightmare Also the mentality at the moment in Iracing is horrible :(
These are all great tips/examples Dave. If you want to see amazing multi class racing on the service, check out Kamel GT. There are only about 4 splits per week, so the folks that race there have a real focus on not ruining each other’s races... this doesn’t seem to exist in IMSA as there’s always another race in 2 hours. I’d love to see you in one of the Kamel races! I’ve seen you take the GTO around the Nords in one of your older videos. The GTO has a great “baseline” this season and is easier to drive than it ever has been IMO. There’s setups posted on the VCR discord every week as well.
I have had many discussions about multi-class racing with many people. In my opinion if a car in a faster class is behind me - as long as I am not in a neck and neck battle with someone in my class - I let them by. It takes less than .300 of a second to simply lift off my throttle and make it clear it’s safe to take the racing line against me. Even if the faster car has no competition near them I find it safer and faster to just concede the turn to them. Quick fast and polite. In the same mind set if i come up on a car in a lower class than mine, as long as he’s not neck and neck with someone in his class I expect them to just lift and concede the racing line to me. I think awareness is key here. If you are in a multi class race you should know your surroundings and know what class you are in.
Another very important thing lots of people don't do is being predictable, not changing direction rapidly and better staying to the fault you did instead of trying to correct it last second.
Never was a video needed so badly by the simracing community. Thank you, Dave. You nailed it. Can we PLEASE get one thing straight here? THE ONUS IS ON THE FASTER CAR TO PASS CLEANLY. If you can't get it done in an LMP1/2 rocket, then you shouldn't be driving it. Can we also talk about how other cars need a bit road to drive on? Just because you CAN hang it around the outside of them doesn't mean you SHOULD. Guess what? That GT is tracking to the outside of the corner and it's going to need the exit kerb. Take a late apex, blast past them on the inside as they're tracking out and you'll be golden. The bit about car positioning for both parties is probably the most important thing here. If the LMP looks like it's the Starship Enterprise being driven by the b*st*rd offspring of Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles, you might want to give 'em a bit more room. You perhaps shouldn't have to, but Self-Preservation Society and all that. Can you do a vid on what blue flags actually mean next? I'm getting jaded with the BLOOFLAHGG!1!ONE!WON!JUAN Brigade shouting at some poor sod trying to manage their own race. Passing slower traffic is part of racing. We're all big boys and girls. Dry your eyes and blimmin' deal with it. If you're so flippin' quick you'll get past them.
Race craft is a skill that a lot of sim racers just do not have, which is why I enjoy watching you race more than others. Would you rather lose 0.3 second, or your entire race? The answer seems obvious.
I have to agree with you. The standard of driving in multiclass has got so much worse. Thankfully I haven't experienced that much this current season. But the times I have, words can't describe how frustrated I can get from it. People in the higher classes just thinking "I have the faster car so I'm getting past you regardless". Then take themselves out, along with the lapped car. Like you say, the more patience you have during these races, the better finish you with have and obviously your SR goes up from it. It's the tactic I use in all of my races and have seen my iR and SR jump up because of it.
Great video Dave! I think iRacing needs to make a mandatory sportsmanship video every so often. I don’t get to do many races but I’m still a higher iRating so I’m normally in top split but even the same class racing seems to have been going down. Everyone is so aggressive from a year or two ago. My last few races have all had the same incidents where I have a clear line to pass and the other person squeezes me out while moving under braking. I’ve seen a lot of “blocking” and not defending lately
I'm usually in the slower class's GT3 / GTE, the 2 things that annoy me, 1. When you are on the limit through a bend and an lmp1/2 tries to come round the outside on the corner exit expecting you have the same grip levels and can magically adjust your line. 2. When multiple people in the slower class decide it's a good idea to jump out the way of faster cars and don't stay on line, this creates the issue of being massively unpredictable and also give the faster classes the impression that all the slower cars are going to jump out the way. My 2 cents. Great Video, people just need to watch some real multiclass - patience and awareness are definately the key.
Great video, I’m more into acc than iracing but this applies to every sim out there. There has to be more awareness between the classes. Everybody think their races are more important and driving like they are alone on the track. But that also does apply to the slower class. They aren’t better in any way. They block the hell out of you even tho they could have let you by easily. It’s always on both sides to be sensible
Great message Dave, I wish there were more like you! I spend more time just testing or running practice sessions opposed to actual racing because, 1; I don't feel I'm fast enough and lack confidence and 2; as a result I'm afraid to get punted etc. 😳
you are very correct dave. i am loosing patience with the standard as of late. there are some rediculus drivers there. even in the same class! every time its not if i loose safetey rating. its about how much i loose and its always an impatient driver in the first few laps. they think we are all slow not recognizing its just the traffic slowing things. all of those same drivers get passed once the track starts to open.
I'm with you on all of these points Dave. I always try to let faster cars get past me as smoothly as possible more out of self preservation than anything else.
if i know the car behind me is faster i typically call where im going to get out of there way, ie: if its a corner then straight i say hey hold it steady for the turn imma get off your line and let you by early in the straight and call WHICH way im going on the straight so theres not a miscomms and they know if im either hugging left or right side
P - Push Push Push!! A - Always remember that the race is won at T1 C - Curse abusively at other drivers in voicechat T - Terrorise slower classes always
Great Video! I´m an LMP2 driver myself and I always try to be as fair as possible to the GT´s. I really don´t want to be one of those LMP2 d(r)ivers. Still, sometimes you just missjudge situations as the guy who has to execute the pass, but when this happens I always try to get behind what happened and try to löearn from it (also always say sorry). This video hopefully helps to let others understand what to do. Most of the time the waiting does not cost any time, because the guys with no patience will probably crash (at least that´s what I tell myself to stay patient lol)
That was my only mistake during the whole week and im on the thumbnail because my brain just lagged. Feelsbadman. Good video though, and again sorry about that stupid move !
VERY good video. And very applicable not only to multiclass but all classes. Lack of driver Patience is a big problem.. The desire to just send it into corners and hope it sticks the pass. I race primarily the IMSA GT4 and the BMW 12.0 with the same car. I am not the fastest and I know it. But I am patient and consistent. We see it every start... a parking lot in turn one as everyone neglects to remember or accept the cold tires and brakes. In many of these cases P3 and 4 wad up and take others with them. So P1 and 2 run away with the race... the mid field crashes out, an the latter half of the field slides up. Then later in the race the cars that crashed out who are obviously faster as they qualified faster are itching to make up for lost time and take HUGE risks to regain position.They dont care at this point what have they got to lose? They get impatient and sloppy, and often take out drivers that are running clean but not in the front half of the field. They are impatient.. and not considering the long game. Cant win or possibly even FINISH the race if you aren't being patient. Now as you mentioned its smart to be defensive or at least self protective if you know you are slower like myself. Just did Barcelona as B class IMSA GT4. Porsche obviously faster than I had been is creeping up and gaining ground... obviously someone that got taken out early and making time up. First run with him down front stretch and he wasn't close enough and knew it so he tucked in behind me. Second time down front stretch and he had the run, i stayed left in my usual line.... i know he is faster... he knows he is faster.. he slides into the right side early so I see him. Works for me. i brake late on the left, he brake late on the inside.. I know he will do one of two things: A, stick the pass and then i tuck in tight behind him safely and pace him. Or B, he will be too hot and go straight off into gravel and he is no longer a concern. Patience and the long game, but definitely awareness and tactics.
Totally agree. I have ended up doing maybe 1 or 2 races a week now. I may not be the fastest but try to be respectful. Hopefully with lockdown easing the player base may even out a bit over next few months. Will certainly avoid evening races for a good while
Thanks Dave! I’ve been struggling this week in IMSA at Road America with many of the same issues you’re discussing, but also with other GTE’s on lap 1. Don’t think I’ve had a single race where I made it through lap 1 without at least a 4x due to impatience and making dumb moves on the first lap.
Hey Dave, thanks for making this video, I wholeheartedly agree with a lot of what you are saying, especially regarding patience and respect. However, I feel that the video is a bit one-sided, from the view of the slower class. You, as one of the more influential iRacing RUclipsrs could really help improve the horrible state multi class racing currently is in if you just made the video a bit more balanced (and probably an hour long... ;-)). I also have to say I don’t fully agree with a few things you said: 1. You say the slower class should get in control regarding being overtaken. You show an example where this is executed perfectly. However, less experienced drivers will probably take this advice and try to dictate when and where the faster class should overtake. It happened to me so often that especially some GT3s almost come to a full stand-still in the middle of a slow corner, because they want me to force to take the inside. This behaviour will cost both cars massive amounts of time or even lead to an incident. 2. Awareness of the slower cars really comes a bit short in this video. I just had my race ruined by a GT3 directly after the kink, when I was just about to pass on the right (everything done perfectly, just like in your second LMP2 example), when the GT3 suddenly closed the door completely. I managed to avoid them, but got punted by the LMP2 directly behind me, who just could not brake in time anymore. 3. Communication. You recommend that people should use Voice Chat and text chat macros. While this can be a helpful addition, some people rely on this method too much. When I am racing, I can’t really pay too much attention to all the text chat macros that appear on my screen, and even if I do, it is hard to really determine, if the “pass left” is coming from the car I am about to overtake or someone else. The focus for everyone should be on car positioning. If done right, no other communication is needed. You already gave some valuable tips regarding this topic but this should have been stressed more, to my mind. Don’t get me wrong, I love what you do on your channel and appreciate the effort you put into making this video, but I feel that it was made after having been punted by a faster class car. Just be aware, that it happens the other way around just as often :-)
Never use text chat to facilitate passing. It's very rare for a driver to be able to detect the message and react when driving in traffic. Focus should always be communication in how you place your car. Use your line and position to indicate if you are going to send it, stay behind, pass right/left or to signal that you want the faster car to pass after the next corner. Chat is unreliable and often causes more problems than it solves.
2 big pet peeves of mine that happen too often. 1. Lower class cars defending against being lapped. That falls under Awareness. 2. People who flash headlights just to try to distract the car ahead. Okay maybe that's fine if you've been behind them for several laps. But man some guys just entering every brake zone they're flashing. It just leads to people ignoring flashing lights. Which is bad because then you're less likely to notice a higher class flashing you.
Great video Dave. Would have loved it if I could! I have barely raced in IMSA or ESS since the release of the LMP2's cos of the standard of driving. It's a shame cos I love driving the GTE's but it's just not worth the stress.
Great, grear video, and awesome intentions here... but! Usually those who race like that...think they're right about it... I mean..I think it's Iracing team, the duty to educate those drivers through out the reports received!
Wow, so many comments ^^ . I agree with all but the lambo, LMP2 look like he didn't gave room but the pass was on time and not late, at least from the little sample you show. They are racing too, and i don't see why only them should have to lift. You showed a good example of you lifting, even if it was a bit extreme. I usually try and lift a good chunk when using the lmp2, so i can overtake safely and quickly on exit, but when a long slow portion is coming, you have to be prepared to be overtaken. Overtaking in the middle of a fast turn is bonkers, make everyone loose time and usually end badly. I also encountered GT3 blocking LMP's for no obvious reason, exept that they are thinking about their race and their's only. Every class have people thinking about themselves only, blaming others for anything happening. In the end, most accident are mistakes, end like all mistakes, it can be avoided with a learning curve. Awesome video, thanks for taking the time in making it, knowing it would attract flammes of some sort. edit: also, i find text and radio really bad for interacting with others on track, regarding pass, it's a lot more distracting than needed, and if everyone was to do it, those would be useless.
This problem is not just an issue for multi class. In my last weeks VRS enduro at Sebring I saw some of the worse blue flag and unco-operative driving in any race I have been in. There was mayhem at the start which put a number of quicker drivers in the pits and a few laps down. I saw a number of drivers actively blocking the leader when being lapped and yep and one killed him as well. in actually fact watching the same drivers block anyone who tried to lap/un lap them. There is almost a mentality by some that if the car behind is a lap down then you are NOT allowed to un lap yourself even if they are a second a lap faster than you. I stopped doing multi class because of the driving standards and only do Single class now (got lucky in the 12Hr Spa we missed the GT4 by a split) Pick your battles. if the car behind is a second a lap quicker that you there is a reason for it ...... he is faster than you.
Patience is a virtue., along with generosity, self-control and prudence. If all iRacers were virtuous we'd have no yelling over chat and maybe no accidents Good video there Dave. Nobodies perfect, but lets try to be civil on track.
I think you are a bit too harsh at the LMP at 7:25. I don’t disagree with your points but I think the GT3 also had a chance to avoid contact. The LMP was well on the inside at the turn in point.
it seems as sim racing has become more popular over the last year, its flooded with teens who are only used to Grand Tourismo and Forza online where taking out your opponent is just another skill. Races vastly different landscape than they were a year ago.
I really think it helps if you know about the racing series your driving. If your a fan and understand what the drivers are doing it helps. I know lots of people now that are on iracing and haven’t ever watched a race before lol
@@PlayJasch well maybe so but I'd rather be taken out by someone in my own class that was trying to battle me than by some lmp2 that is 2 laps ahead of me and battling no one
Good video Dave. I do think it’s a tad one sided though. As it’s everyone’s responsibility, it is very much also the case that gt3s need to have an awareness and adapt how they drive and can’t just pretend other cars don’t exist. The t1 example you have at road america where the lmp2 is almost past the gt3 , I’m not sure you can say is 100% the lmp2s fault. I tend to be second split territory which means the gt3 standard is not the best which compounds the problem.
As a GT3 driver, it is indeed infruiating when the lmp car sends it in corners when he shouldn't. The imsa races I took part in all ended in me being slammed to the wall with no apology or even getting insulted for "getting in their way".
First of all great intro the graphics are cool . Great video Dave it’s all so true how much better would it be for everyone if people just took a second because 9 times out of 10 it’s the end of the race for someone . When the race is over most people are complimentary and act like gentlemen so why can’t they do the same when they are racing . It’s only the minority though there are a lot of good guys . Great content good idea . Keep them coming 👍
I like to drive the Porsche 919 and i like being patient with the GTEs for safer race, but i allways get GTE's slowing down on the corners and that only makes me and the GTE lose time and even a crash, so now i started saying before the race starts that there's no need to slow down for a faster car because we are only going to pass then on a straigh and is working really well so far. so my hint would be commitment, keep your line and do what you are doing ant we get pass you later, and if you get on one like after a turn, keep that line for a second, dont zig zag in front of a LMP1 using boost just 0.2 seconds behind you
I drive the LMP2. It is a fair video. I agree with all of it. I would like to add that being predictable and not changing your line or speed at the last second goes a long way. Some drivers do it with good intentions even, but it usually ends up bad. Be predictable, please. I really dislike when people get so mad they argue and disrespect other drivers. Yes, it might be someone else's fault but we all screw up at some point. Be supportive, don't belittle others, and please, please, please, don't disrespect other no matter what they do. If you are salty, bite your tongue, and if need be, protest the driver. I agree, it is a team effort. Good video, Dave.
My Experience.. doing only V8 Supercars for almost a year with superfast Aussies , goes up to 4.2K iRating. Almost never been punted or crashed in a year. Wanted to go back to GT, did last 3 weeks VRS Sprint... now I am at 3.7K iRating, drove only top split, got crashed, punted caught up in crashes, EVERY F**KING races. And last race I did at Daytonna, they were incidents/crashes EVERY laps, of 23 laps.... That is disgusting.
At around 7min maybe the GT3 also has no one to fight and could let him through because letting through in on corner doesn't cost as much as being held off through a couple of corners.
I just done a endurance championship and the yellow Leo lmp2 cars was in the championship. They were always every clean so I could of just been a one off. Everyone makes mistakes sometimes I guess .
A few people have commented saying this is a bit one sided and focusing too much on the LMPs. That's because it is. Yes the slower class cars occasionally have some blame, but let's remember it's the guy behind who has to execute the pass safely.
It's unfortunate, but the sad reality is that just because people CAN pass, they think they should.
There's so many things GT cars do badly. You just drive GT so you don't see it
@@tomjakemcvey make a video then buddy.
@@tomjakemcvey come on ur so smart you make a video then but dave is right the faster car has to get past the slower car safely the slower car just has to hold his line. yes the slower cars do make mistakes but the faster car needs to get pass safely
From iRacings Sporting Code: "In all cases, it is the responsibility of the faster car to safely overtake the slower car. It is the responsibility of the slower
car to maintain a consistent line. It is strongly recommended that a slower car being lapped makes every reasonable effort to facilitate a safe pass."
Funnily enough many GT drivers forget to read the entire section, as the slower cars also has responsibilities. Your incident at the kink is claerly the LMP2 drivers fault, but were you maintaining a consistent line? That situation would be more interesting to see from the LMP2 drivers cockpit view, it is all to easy to analyze things in a replay from the far chase view. What I am trying to say is it makes overtaking GT cars much more difficult when they are changeing lines. Opening the inside for the LMP2 driver only to close it very quickly makes it extremely difficult for a LMP2 driver to make a safe pass. Stick to one line and communicate this clearly with you car placement (something alot of LMP2 drivers suck at!).
Your example with the Lambo into T7 I see totally different, maybe because I primarily drive LMP2s (if you hadn't already guessed that!) :) The LMP2 car makes a perfect overtake only for the Lambo to hit him. The Lambo driver needs some awareness of what is going on around him. And not only at the end of the race. If GT drivers expect only clean passes on the straights I think they need to se some IMSA or WEC races. The LMP2s need to be patient and the GTs needs to be aware meaning using their mirrors and the relative box.
I also disagree with your assessment of what is enough time between to LMP2s fighting for position. Having 1-1.5 second to the car behind is nothing when encountering traffic. You quickly loose that meaning you have the car behind coming at you trying to take advantage of the situation. Does that then make it okay to make stupid moves ? No off course not! Nothing ever makes that okay, but if you understading is that 1.5 seconds between two LMP2 fighting for position is enough for them to take all the time in the world to get around you, your properly going to be surprised. The LMP2 driver could also have choosen another pit strategy, pitting when hitting traffic or pitted as he was caught behind slower paced LMP2s, in an attempt to gain time. So just beacuse a driver (no matter what class) are driving seemingly on their own in the middle of the race, ther are still fighting for position and want to overtake/be overtaken with the smallest timeloss possible.
What I think is lacking in multiclass racing is respect. And that goes both ways. Often GT drivers complain LMP2 drivers split them when fighting for postion at the end of a race. And my counter to that would be, do you always let fighting LMP2 cars through when you have the time to do it at the end of a race? Because I almost never experience that. If you have a bad experience with another driver try and make them stay after the race and you can discuss the incident. Write them a PM on the forum and discuss it (in that case saving a clip of the incident is a great tool) or atleast try and experience what the other driver saw. Sadly in iRacings replay you cant see the mirrors, but as a GT car you can always take a cockpit view of the LMP2 drivers perspective, maybe you'll get wiser!? If you always blame the other driver or carclass for all incidents nothing will be learnt and that goes for all drivers of all classes.
And always protest a driver if you feel he/she is driving recklessly, that is our only option at this moment.
I agree I could have taken my normal line through the kink, but my decision not to was completely dictated by the track positioning last minute from the LMP2. One second right behind me, the next pulling out as if he was going for the move. I've done my fair share of driving the LMP2 and know how frustrating it can be, but sometimes you get lucky with traffic, sometimes you dont. That's just the luck of the draw in multi class.
All I'm trying to do is provoke discussion and maybe get people to think a little more, hopefully making it better for all of us.👍
this video should be played in iRacing the first time somebody enters a multiclass race. well done Dave.
How to multiclass as the faster driver:
1. Flash repeatedly, starting from as soon as you’re in visual range
2. Fire your car into an apex, despite the fact the guy in the slower car is already on his way there.
3. Call the other guy a moron on voice chat for the next five minutes.
4. Repeat for the next car.
5. Protest for blocking Post race
my team mate did this in the sebring 12 hour it was so embarassing
Also really important is that the slower vehicles dont get a blue flag but a blue flag with a yellow stripe. Meaning you dont have to let him pass, but he has to make sure he can pass you safely.
I have a feeling not that many people know that.
@Ibrahim memo for faster classes: take your time and don’t make slower classes feel like the only option is diving well out of the way... that’s all we ask 😉
And do not forget that everyone is trying to win the race in the first corner
The guys that need to see this will never see this.
This comment is sadly so freaking true. Those guys don’t have true racing spirits like us and no interest to learn the right way. It’s all right foot and how fast can I go. With zero racing IQ
Ive just sent a link to the P2 driver that punted me through the kink yesterday... :)
Patience... this seems to be the one thing a lot of sim racers don’t have, cocooned at home and self achievement focused. God help anyone in their way
Also meant to say Great Work Dave! ;) your helping those iracing hooks sink ever deeper.
Totally agree. It also seems that only a win counts as a good result. Too much off-line racing always winning against ai
Traffic management might actually be my favorite part of racing the LMP2. Having the right mindset is an important part of multi-class racing, and thinking of dealing with slower traffic as a skill to be honed rather than a necessary evil or a chore goes a long way toward making for both more enjoyable and safer racing.
I really think iRacing should force everyone to watch this before signing up for ANY multiclass series. At the beginning of the season, every season.
You nailed it with the “my race is more important than your race”. That’s exactly what I experience. What’d they think, I can watch my mirrors, at 90mph, through a series of bends, whilst battling another slower car and anticipating what a faster car behind me is going to do. I can’t separate my eyes, i’m not a bloody Apache gunshot pilot! Gah, bad race tonight, can you tell? Im packing in multi-class. It’s always like that.
Great vid Dave, I remember someone saying once 'the way to be fast, is to know when to be slow'.
Napoleon put it pretty poetically (allegedly): "I am in a hurry, dress me slowly."
My theory is that the recent drop in multiclass manners has a lot to do with the rise of popularity and the esports aspect. A lot less banter, friendship and cooperation, and a lot more yelling over radio.
Ahhh the good old days hey? Kids these days just don't even.
Hey Dave great video. Lmp2 drivers are really dangerous some times. I am one myself and sure some of my overtakes Will be tricky in a race but most of them I rather wait then Risk it. While I agree with almost all the incidents the one on 6:48 is the one I disagree with. The GT3 should see the lmp2 coming and could helping Them as well Just because its the fastest cars responsibility to overtake safely that doesn't mean you can just keep on racing as if there arent faster people out there. He is not racing anyone and the lmp2 is fully alongside him even past most of him on contact.
There is a couple good sayings everyone should think about, "To finish first, you first have to finish!" and "Treat everyone else on track, as you want them to treat you!" Being the faster driver, multiclass or not, gives you no right to drive through the slower ones.
Well said
From one Dave to another, love the channel now that I'm getting back into iRacing after a 6 year hiatus. Also, don't forget that even if the race isn't multi-class, the lower splits of a single class can be similar (big mix of experienced vs learning drivers leading to 3-4 second gaps in lap times). I think this applies there also.
Absolutely right, Dave. I took part in my first 12h enduro at Spa this weekend in bottom split, so it meant no multiclass but a big range of speeds. We came 4th and I drove the final 2.5 hours with good average lap times, but had to be suuuuuper patient to not throw away a good result in the final hours. There are more badly damaged cars at the and than there are at the start too, so you would also have fast drivers with compromised lap times.
It’s amazing how your body language on the track serves as a strong form of communication, as DC mentioned. I’d only deploy the flash after multiple corners of being held up and drivers usually realised what my intentions were. My general tactic is to just wait and stay on the line, because that is usually faster and less risky than swerving all over the place.
Another thing: I watch a lot of real motorsport and follow their behaviours. If people took note of how drivers act at Le Mans, Bathurst, Sebring, etc, then they would be getting along with a lot more cooperation. Treat each potential crash as a $100,000 repair bill and see how your own driving changes!
Well put, Dave. This applies to everything, not just multiclass. I practiced all week for the Porsche Cup race to be safe and comfortable, and I got taken out lap one by someone who was impatient when a wreck was happening in front of us. My race was over and he continued on... very discouraging. I'm ready for my road A promotion so I can't get in too many of those. In all honesty, most of these cars aren't that difficult to drive, and it baffles me how people can't keep from running into one another. Most of the incidents can be avoided if people are patient - and follow the "P.A.C.T." mentality!
Same thing happens in rFactor 2! Your absolutely right about how many of the "LMP" drivers think their race is more important than the GT's. All the LMP's can pass the GT's out of a corner due to the power & acceleration but most don't seem to realise this fact; or patient enough to wait and do so. Like your example of letting the racing LMP group through, most GT drivers will show the same sense when they are able to do so. Even though you lost time to the car behind... which had a negative effect on your race...? Good job Dave. Keep 'em coming!!
I agree with the points raised except the using the voice/text chat to communicate where to make moves. As you have said not everyone will have it on. Even if they have it on they may not be able to acknowledge it in time due to having focus elsewhere or a potential language barrier issue. I would emphasize using car positioning and flashing lights as clearer indicators to the other car(s) involved what your intentions are.
Hey! I am the LMP2 in the last clip.
I know its my fault. I knew it the moment I about to hit that GT3. One millisecond I thought that GT3 would go to the right. But thinking that was 100% out of my mind and totally wrong. I apologized to him afterwards through the iracing forum. I know apologizing won't fix the damage but thats the least I can do.
At least you care man. Most people just get pissed off they had someone in their way. In all honesty, when I get ran over or punted, all I want is an apology, cuz if I do the same to you it will always be an immediate sorry from me, ya know?
Kudos for the apology and Importantly you recognised your mistake.
The kink is a flat out (hopefully) corner where you are trying to keep your the car from tracking out of the outside of the corner, especially in a less downforce enabled car. The only way any car could have kept right would have been to lift in the middle of the corner (possible spin) or come in a lesser speed (probably get rammed from behind)
The mind set should be to react to what is natural for a car to do in front. So in this situation the natural course of events the quicker car waits for the GT car to track out (it has too) and it should keep left for the run up to Canada corner and the quicker car has plenty of time to pass on the right. If this was a GT3 & GTE the GT3 may have had to breath to the run up to Canadian corner to let the GTE by to cooperate.
The main reason for the faster classes being impatient is the simple lack of understanding when it comes to a blue flag , they think it means the slower class should move out of the way , however in real multi class , the faster car will always be penalised for making contact while passing, the slower classes are told to keep to their line and the faster class will find a way around , that’s their job . Obviously there are times that slower classes can make it easy by slowing down early for a turn but they should never be bullied off line , if you have more downforce or speed then use it to change your own racing line
They think the blue flag should result in a "parting of the Red sea" moment from 1/2 mile back!
Well said Dave, you are a great ambassador for the sport!! Cheers mate, you're a legend!!
Very timely video and well said. We need people TEACHING and SPEAKING about multiclass racing and dos and donts more and more. I honestly wish everyone would watch this and reflect on their attitude. As a GT3 driver, all I want to do is stay safe nor ruin your race if you're in the other classes.
I have been doing a lot of races at Road America this week in the lower splits and seems the pact is already in place there, quite respectful racing.
But like you said at the end: if you’re the slower car, signal your own intent as well and claim your place on the track. If I see an LMP2 coming and judge it to be very likely he’s gonna send it too late I move more to the middle of the track, which automatically gives him the message: send it and we’re both dead, your move. Works pretty well.
One point that I think is missing from this generally strong presentation: not everyone is aware of text or voice chat, and even if they are, not everyone can speak your language. But car position and light flashing are things every driver can understand.
Can we also talk about how fucking good that C8.r looks? Not to mention your livery dave. Magic.
Being a beginner in that class, so glad to have found your tips...! THANKS!
I quit imsa officials probably a year ago. best decision I ever made. Then I went to F3. Then I quit F3 officials a week ago. best decision I ever made
Great to see some thought leadership in the community, Dave. I am not at that level yet, but I learned a few things today. Thank you.
Thank you for a great video. I watched this yesterday, and tonight I drove my first multiclass race (excluding week 13) in the Sprint. I had the Porsche 919, but I don't have the best pace, but I did a couple of nice (and safe) overtakes and got overtaken a couple times as well without incidents, and every time I was about to do a overtake on a slower class car I had your PACT in mind, showed some extra patience and overtook on the straights.
Spot on Dave. Patience is King. Your race at Monza in the LMP2 was great to show the new LMP2 drivers that patience always wins out in the end. You might lose out to a driver behind or in front because of being patient in passing a slower car but it all equals out in the end where the LMP2 in front might get held up a few laps later. It's a shame that some of the LMP2's behave like this and invariably its those inexperienced drivers who have bought the car because its faster than everything else so they think they own the road. And now, some of the GT drivers treat all LMP2 drivers the same way when these inexperienced guys cause trouble. ie with disrespect when slight mistakes are made or something.
What I find interesting is that some people think that flashing your headlights means “I am coming, let me through”. Especially at the beginning of the race when they got punted in T1 and are now behind me.
Another frustration is, that nobody keeps a safe distance in lap one. I am not the fastest guy, so my brake points might be a little off, but instead of keeping a safe distance people just run me over, because they need to get to P1 in the first lap, even if we are the end of the field.
thank you Dave. I can not belive some racer just act like you are not even there.
Don't want to say much, however 5:20, I am that GT3 being killed. While I could have done better (like have my wheel straighter), I was informed by the LMP that it was my fault because "you were 10kmh slower than other GT3s so I had to take a tighter line"
He HAD TO be more patient and taken the wider line in order to be on the inside of the next corner.
Shockingly bad on the P2's part. Either wait for the GT3 to track out to take the left, or let the GT3 have the racing line and pass on the inside of T14 if you're not close enough approaching T13.
@@sweetcynic8830
I was close because he braked more than he should ..... is it so difficult to understand? if he was cornering like a normal gt3 that is 10 km faster than he did the bend he was further away and widened and me I entered, instead it braked closing the trajectory, the gt3 does not follow that trajectory but widens .....
@@michelesangalli2335 As much as I understand your defensiveness and frustration, you made a bad move, simple as that. It seems like you're trying to justify it by over analyzing what the GT3 "should have done" or what the GT3 supposedly "did", when from the clip, the GT3 was on the racing line. It's as much on you to pass safely as it is for the slower class to remain on the racing line.
Great video. I’ve been running the IMSA Pilot series recently. After seeing this video, the ‘PACT’ is definitely something I will be promoting on track!
It's not only multi class that people need to be patient. All races they have to. I have been punted that many times and been told I shouldn't have braked so early. And when I catch up to them they are braking at the same spot or just a little bit later than me. It is the passing car responsibility to pass safely. Thank you Dave hopefully this thru to some of them people.
Great video Dave and I whole-heartedly agree. I'd like to add that some of those tips can go for single class racing also. As I put it, "Don't race stupid" , and that goes two ways. Sadly, I don't think we will ever see the end of the selfish style of racing because the guys that do it have nothing to lose. It isn't like the are going to get hurt, have to pay for damages to cars, or lose sponsors for being a tool on the track. At most they cry on chat a bit, call people names, and then get into another race where they can do the same thing. They never see that they are the common denominator in the very things they complain about.
Dave i have been having problems in the MX5 racing season, a lot of people intentionally wrecking people, and acting like they have no spotter, exactly what you were talking about at the beginning of this vid.
Dave, you're such a good ambassador for the service, thanks for this content. It would be great to see more on this topic of racing safely. The recent growth in population in iRacing has certainly diminished the quality of races on average. It amazes me that even in top split people don't know how to follow safely, they keep braking at the same points they use to, completely ignoring who's in front of them. Maybe that is a good follow up to this one, how to follow other people safely.
Speaking as guy who drives mainly LMP2:
1:55 Yes, pretty shit move from LMP, being unpredictible is the best recipe for accident.
3:59 Nice driving from him but he was way down the order and not battling anyone. This might've been main issue why he was so patient and went easy on all 3 GTs that he passed on this clip. Normally in his place I would go between you and BMW after kink (Personally when I do that I try to be so close to GT ahead, that this one behind me, who I just passed, doesn't lose too much time because of me), then pass BMW on the outside of long right and presumably pass last GT after second kink. In normal circumstances I think that would be safe for everyone and I wouldn't lose as much time as Galasso did.
5:18 Another shit move from LMP but connected with bad timing. In this place we can pass GT3s on left side after left-hander and before braking we're fully ahead of them. With GTEs it's more tricky and personally I'd wait there to pass on the exit of final corner, if this was GTE. Most likely if he was waiting a bit longer, the other guy behind would lose time trying to go for the same move or waiting to pass GT3 after final corner. But too early on throttle and race was over.
6:38 I think this wasn't too bad move. With bit of working together LMP can pass GT3 and both won't lose too much time. Since it was middle of the race, he might've want to catch up to people ahead who were slower or pull away from someone behind, who was faster and catching him. Staying there behind GT3 is costly for LMP, with GTE it's not as bad fortunately hence why LMPs are more patient there with GTEs.
7:35 Quite late move + it feels like he went pretty slow on the apex. If he coasted behind BMW and waited for corner exit, he would not lose too much time.
8:11 I agree there is no one to battle with at the time, but I think slipstream effect is higher in prototypes than in GTs. If there is up to a second between LMPs, slipstream is pretty significant and it's easy to stay behind someone, who has similar/slightly better pace. I guess this guy didn't want to have the LMP behind him back in slipstream but nonetheless as I said early, move was too late and in this scenario he should've wait for corner exit. Just wanted to point out what he might've thought and how slipstream works in LMP2s.
10:52 That's what I said early, that being LMP2 and trying to overtake GTE into this kink is pretty stupid and waiting doesn't harm you as much :D Nice work with being predictable on the exit of kink and moving away after the corner. I think though, that you didn't have to wait for Tae and you could've go with racing line after letting Andrew by. Tae should've had easy job passing you on the outside of long right-hander.
12:18 Another shit move from LMP. I don't even know what he tried to achieve: going for outside there is quite retarded.
16:08 It can be overused and I saw some situations, when GT did that move and it caused more confusion then it should've been there. Faster class would go for the move and no big harm would've been done. So if you're a GT driver and do that move, be sure you don't create too much confusion and that you make corner normally after that. I also saw a few times, when GT did that wave and then missed the corner completely.
Overall this is very good video that can be shown to anyone, who wants to do multiclass racing. I hope that as LMP2 driver I also showed, how things can look from prototype side :D
I totally agree with this entire video. I have been guilty of killing GT3’s and GTE’s in the past but part of the time, it’s the slower class cars that do not hold their lines. It’s very hard to change lines last second without punting the slower car. Especially with unexpected darty movements
Fab video, Dave. Thanks for taking the time to put this together. Really interesting to see how the mind of a really decent, fair driver works, especially for those of us just embarking on multi-class races.
Hey Dave great video as always,
Yeh at the moment multiclass racing is an absolute nightmare
Also the mentality at the moment in Iracing is horrible :(
These are all great tips/examples Dave.
If you want to see amazing multi class racing on the service, check out Kamel GT. There are only about 4 splits per week, so the folks that race there have a real focus on not ruining each other’s races... this doesn’t seem to exist in IMSA as there’s always another race in 2 hours.
I’d love to see you in one of the Kamel races! I’ve seen you take the GTO around the Nords in one of your older videos. The GTO has a great “baseline” this season and is easier to drive than it ever has been IMO. There’s setups posted on the VCR discord every week as well.
When does it go official? I'd love to race that series
I have had many discussions about multi-class racing with many people. In my opinion if a car in a faster class is behind me - as long as I am not in a neck and neck battle with someone in my class - I let them by. It takes less than .300 of a second to simply lift off my throttle and make it clear it’s safe to take the racing line against me.
Even if the faster car has no competition near them I find it safer and faster to just concede the turn to them. Quick fast and polite.
In the same mind set if i come up on a car in a lower class than mine, as long as he’s not neck and neck with someone in his class I expect them to just lift and concede the racing line to me.
I think awareness is key here. If you are in a multi class race you should know your surroundings and know what class you are in.
Another very important thing lots of people don't do is being predictable, not changing direction rapidly and better staying to the fault you did instead of trying to correct it last second.
Very good video Dave!! Thank you for what you do for the community
Never was a video needed so badly by the simracing community. Thank you, Dave. You nailed it.
Can we PLEASE get one thing straight here? THE ONUS IS ON THE FASTER CAR TO PASS CLEANLY. If you can't get it done in an LMP1/2 rocket, then you shouldn't be driving it.
Can we also talk about how other cars need a bit road to drive on? Just because you CAN hang it around the outside of them doesn't mean you SHOULD. Guess what? That GT is tracking to the outside of the corner and it's going to need the exit kerb. Take a late apex, blast past them on the inside as they're tracking out and you'll be golden.
The bit about car positioning for both parties is probably the most important thing here. If the LMP looks like it's the Starship Enterprise being driven by the b*st*rd offspring of Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles, you might want to give 'em a bit more room. You perhaps shouldn't have to, but Self-Preservation Society and all that.
Can you do a vid on what blue flags actually mean next? I'm getting jaded with the BLOOFLAHGG!1!ONE!WON!JUAN Brigade shouting at some poor sod trying to manage their own race. Passing slower traffic is part of racing. We're all big boys and girls. Dry your eyes and blimmin' deal with it. If you're so flippin' quick you'll get past them.
Race craft is a skill that a lot of sim racers just do not have, which is why I enjoy watching you race more than others. Would you rather lose 0.3 second, or your entire race? The answer seems obvious.
I have to agree with you. The standard of driving in multiclass has got so much worse. Thankfully I haven't experienced that much this current season. But the times I have, words can't describe how frustrated I can get from it. People in the higher classes just thinking "I have the faster car so I'm getting past you regardless". Then take themselves out, along with the lapped car.
Like you say, the more patience you have during these races, the better finish you with have and obviously your SR goes up from it. It's the tactic I use in all of my races and have seen my iR and SR jump up because of it.
11:45 great decision Davey Boy and a bonus as you were worried about running out of fuel 😅
Great video Dave! I think iRacing needs to make a mandatory sportsmanship video every so often. I don’t get to do many races but I’m still a higher iRating so I’m normally in top split but even the same class racing seems to have been going down. Everyone is so aggressive from a year or two ago. My last few races have all had the same incidents where I have a clear line to pass and the other person squeezes me out while moving under braking. I’ve seen a lot of “blocking” and not defending lately
I'm usually in the slower class's GT3 / GTE, the 2 things that annoy me, 1. When you are on the limit through a bend and an lmp1/2 tries to come round the outside on the corner exit expecting you have the same grip levels and can magically adjust your line. 2. When multiple people in the slower class decide it's a good idea to jump out the way of faster cars and don't stay on line, this creates the issue of being massively unpredictable and also give the faster classes the impression that all the slower cars are going to jump out the way. My 2 cents. Great Video, people just need to watch some real multiclass - patience and awareness are definately the key.
Great video, I’m more into acc than iracing but this applies to every sim out there. There has to be more awareness between the classes. Everybody think their races are more important and driving like they are alone on the track. But that also does apply to the slower class. They aren’t better in any way. They block the hell out of you even tho they could have let you by easily. It’s always on both sides to be sensible
Great message Dave, I wish there were more like you! I spend more time just testing or running practice sessions opposed to actual racing because, 1; I don't feel I'm fast enough and lack confidence and 2; as a result I'm afraid to get punted etc. 😳
Thanks Dave, a much needed commentary to increase greater racing. Cheers!
you are very correct dave. i am loosing patience with the standard as of late. there are some rediculus drivers there. even in the same class! every time its not if i loose safetey rating. its about how much i loose and its always an impatient driver in the first few laps. they think we are all slow not recognizing its just the traffic slowing things. all of those same drivers get passed once the track starts to open.
I'm with you on all of these points Dave.
I always try to let faster cars get past me as smoothly as possible more out of self preservation than anything else.
if i know the car behind me is faster i typically call where im going to get out of there way, ie: if its a corner then straight i say hey hold it steady for the turn imma get off your line and let you by early in the straight and call WHICH way im going on the straight so theres not a miscomms and they know if im either hugging left or right side
P - Push Push Push!!
A - Always remember that the race is won at T1
C - Curse abusively at other drivers in voicechat
T - Terrorise slower classes always
Great Video!
I´m an LMP2 driver myself and I always try to be as fair as possible to the GT´s. I really don´t want to be one of those LMP2 d(r)ivers. Still, sometimes you just missjudge situations as the guy who has to execute the pass, but when this happens I always try to get behind what happened and try to löearn from it (also always say sorry). This video hopefully helps to let others understand what to do. Most of the time the waiting does not cost any time, because the guys with no patience will probably crash (at least that´s what I tell myself to stay patient lol)
Fully agree! People always only think about themselves unfortunately
That was my only mistake during the whole week and im on the thumbnail because my brain just lagged. Feelsbadman. Good video though, and again sorry about that stupid move !
It's all good man. You apologised already 👍
brain lag go *brrrrr*
VERY good video. And very applicable not only to multiclass but all classes. Lack of driver Patience is a big problem.. The desire to just send it into corners and hope it sticks the pass. I race primarily the IMSA GT4 and the BMW 12.0 with the same car. I am not the fastest and I know it. But I am patient and consistent. We see it every start... a parking lot in turn one as everyone neglects to remember or accept the cold tires and brakes. In many of these cases P3 and 4 wad up and take others with them. So P1 and 2 run away with the race... the mid field crashes out, an the latter half of the field slides up. Then later in the race the cars that crashed out who are obviously faster as they qualified faster are itching to make up for lost time and take HUGE risks to regain position.They dont care at this point what have they got to lose? They get impatient and sloppy, and often take out drivers that are running clean but not in the front half of the field. They are impatient.. and not considering the long game. Cant win or possibly even FINISH the race if you aren't being patient. Now as you mentioned its smart to be defensive or at least self protective if you know you are slower like myself. Just did Barcelona as B class IMSA GT4. Porsche obviously faster than I had been is creeping up and gaining ground... obviously someone that got taken out early and making time up. First run with him down front stretch and he wasn't close enough and knew it so he tucked in behind me. Second time down front stretch and he had the run, i stayed left in my usual line.... i know he is faster... he knows he is faster.. he slides into the right side early so I see him. Works for me. i brake late on the left, he brake late on the inside.. I know he will do one of two things: A, stick the pass and then i tuck in tight behind him safely and pace him. Or B, he will be too hot and go straight off into gravel and he is no longer a concern. Patience and the long game, but definitely awareness and tactics.
It would be good if you did these every now and then👍 it would be a great service to the community. Great video Dave.
Awesome video and call Dave. Agree 100%. Wish the numpties causing the incident to would watch this.
Totally agree. I have ended up doing maybe 1 or 2 races a week now. I may not be the fastest but try to be respectful. Hopefully with lockdown easing the player base may even out a bit over next few months. Will certainly avoid evening races for a good while
Thanks Dave! I’ve been struggling this week in IMSA at Road America with many of the same issues you’re discussing, but also with other GTE’s on lap 1. Don’t think I’ve had a single race where I made it through lap 1 without at least a 4x due to impatience and making dumb moves on the first lap.
Not only to multiclass. Recently only way to have a safe race is to qualify p1-p4 and put distance during start and then keep that distance.
Hey Dave, thanks for making this video, I wholeheartedly agree with a lot of what you are saying, especially regarding patience and respect. However, I feel that the video is a bit one-sided, from the view of the slower class. You, as one of the more influential iRacing RUclipsrs could really help improve the horrible state multi class racing currently is in if you just made the video a bit more balanced (and probably an hour long... ;-)). I also have to say I don’t fully agree with a few things you said:
1. You say the slower class should get in control regarding being overtaken. You show an example where this is executed perfectly. However, less experienced drivers will probably take this advice and try to dictate when and where the faster class should overtake. It happened to me so often that especially some GT3s almost come to a full stand-still in the middle of a slow corner, because they want me to force to take the inside. This behaviour will cost both cars massive amounts of time or even lead to an incident.
2. Awareness of the slower cars really comes a bit short in this video. I just had my race ruined by a GT3 directly after the kink, when I was just about to pass on the right (everything done perfectly, just like in your second LMP2 example), when the GT3 suddenly closed the door completely. I managed to avoid them, but got punted by the LMP2 directly behind me, who just could not brake in time anymore.
3. Communication. You recommend that people should use Voice Chat and text chat macros. While this can be a helpful addition, some people rely on this method too much. When I am racing, I can’t really pay too much attention to all the text chat macros that appear on my screen, and even if I do, it is hard to really determine, if the “pass left” is coming from the car I am about to overtake or someone else. The focus for everyone should be on car positioning. If done right, no other communication is needed. You already gave some valuable tips regarding this topic but this should have been stressed more, to my mind.
Don’t get me wrong, I love what you do on your channel and appreciate the effort you put into making this video, but I feel that it was made after having been punted by a faster class car. Just be aware, that it happens the other way around just as often :-)
Never use text chat to facilitate passing. It's very rare for a driver to be able to detect the message and react when driving in traffic.
Focus should always be communication in how you place your car. Use your line and position to indicate if you are going to send it, stay behind, pass right/left or to signal that you want the faster car to pass after the next corner.
Chat is unreliable and often causes more problems than it solves.
I see this stuff alot. Thanks Dave hopefully this makes some think about it.
2 big pet peeves of mine that happen too often.
1. Lower class cars defending against being lapped. That falls under Awareness.
2. People who flash headlights just to try to distract the car ahead. Okay maybe that's fine if you've been behind them for several laps. But man some guys just entering every brake zone they're flashing. It just leads to people ignoring flashing lights. Which is bad because then you're less likely to notice a higher class flashing you.
Great video Dave. Would have loved it if I could! I have barely raced in IMSA or ESS since the release of the LMP2's cos of the standard of driving. It's a shame cos I love driving the GTE's but it's just not worth the stress.
Exactly why i stopped multiclass racing.
Don’t even think about doing endurance racing.
Great, grear video, and awesome intentions here... but! Usually those who race like that...think they're right about it...
I mean..I think it's Iracing team, the duty to educate those drivers through out the reports received!
Wow, so many comments ^^ . I agree with all but the lambo, LMP2 look like he didn't gave room but the pass was on time and not late, at least from the little sample you show.
They are racing too, and i don't see why only them should have to lift. You showed a good example of you lifting, even if it was a bit extreme.
I usually try and lift a good chunk when using the lmp2, so i can overtake safely and quickly on exit, but when a long slow portion is coming, you have to be prepared to be overtaken.
Overtaking in the middle of a fast turn is bonkers, make everyone loose time and usually end badly.
I also encountered GT3 blocking LMP's for no obvious reason, exept that they are thinking about their race and their's only.
Every class have people thinking about themselves only, blaming others for anything happening.
In the end, most accident are mistakes, end like all mistakes, it can be avoided with a learning curve.
Awesome video, thanks for taking the time in making it, knowing it would attract flammes of some sort.
edit: also, i find text and radio really bad for interacting with others on track, regarding pass, it's a lot more distracting than needed, and if everyone was to do it, those would be useless.
This problem is not just an issue for multi class.
In my last weeks VRS enduro at Sebring I saw some of the worse blue flag and unco-operative driving in any race I have been in.
There was mayhem at the start which put a number of quicker drivers in the pits and a few laps down.
I saw a number of drivers actively blocking the leader when being lapped and yep and one killed him as well.
in actually fact watching the same drivers block anyone who tried to lap/un lap them.
There is almost a mentality by some that if the car behind is a lap down then you are NOT allowed to un lap yourself even if they are a second a lap faster than you.
I stopped doing multi class because of the driving standards and only do Single class now (got lucky in the 12Hr Spa we missed the GT4 by a split)
Pick your battles. if the car behind is a second a lap quicker that you there is a reason for it ...... he is faster than you.
Patience is a virtue., along with generosity, self-control and prudence. If all iRacers were virtuous we'd have no yelling over chat and maybe no accidents Good video there Dave. Nobodies perfect, but lets try to be civil on track.
I think you are a bit too harsh at the LMP at 7:25. I don’t disagree with your points but I think the GT3 also had a chance to avoid contact. The LMP was well on the inside at the turn in point.
it seems as sim racing has become more popular over the last year, its flooded with teens who are only used to Grand Tourismo and Forza online where taking out your opponent is just another skill. Races vastly different landscape than they were a year ago.
I really think it helps if you know about the racing series your driving. If your a fan and understand what the drivers are doing it helps. I know lots of people now that are on iracing and haven’t ever watched a race before lol
i really hope everyone sees this video dave! i haven't been near imsa or ESSfor a couple of months because of this exact reason!
IMSA and ESS driving standards are miles ahead of VRS/Gt3 Challenge
@@PlayJasch well maybe so but I'd rather be taken out by someone in my own class that was trying to battle me than by some lmp2 that is 2 laps ahead of me and battling no one
Always the bloody LMPs :). Great vid as always Dave... now do the same comparison on Long Beach! Ha
Good video Dave. I do think it’s a tad one sided though. As it’s everyone’s responsibility, it is very much also the case that gt3s need to have an awareness and adapt how they drive and can’t just pretend other cars don’t exist. The t1 example you have at road america where the lmp2 is almost past the gt3 , I’m not sure you can say is 100% the lmp2s fault.
I tend to be second split territory which means the gt3 standard is not the best which compounds the problem.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS VIDEO! So many people needed to hear this. smh Racing 101.
As a GT3 driver, it is indeed infruiating when the lmp car sends it in corners when he shouldn't. The imsa races I took part in all ended in me being slammed to the wall with no apology or even getting insulted for "getting in their way".
I run the GTE and there's always relief when you realize your split doesn't have any LMPs lol.
Great vid Dave. I abhor these faster cars just always neglecting the slower cars' race and think they are the king or whatever
Long beach is going to be HELL for these lmp cars and I can't wait to see it :D
Ditto that was the first thing I thought when I saw Long Beach this week. I cringed.
GREAT video Dave! I learned allot!
First of all great intro the graphics are cool . Great video Dave it’s all so true how much better would it be for everyone if people just took a second because 9 times out of 10 it’s the end of the race for someone . When the race is over most people are complimentary and act like gentlemen so why can’t they do the same when they are racing . It’s only the minority though there are a lot of good guys . Great content good idea . Keep them coming 👍
Last time I was this early I overshot the bus stop by a mile
Superb video. Well done.
I like to drive the Porsche 919 and i like being patient with the GTEs for safer race, but i allways get GTE's slowing down on the corners and that only makes me and the GTE lose time and even a crash, so now i started saying before the race starts that there's no need to slow down for a faster car because we are only going to pass then on a straigh and is working really well so far.
so my hint would be commitment, keep your line and do what you are doing ant we get pass you later, and if you get on one like after a turn, keep that line for a second, dont zig zag in front of a LMP1 using boost just 0.2 seconds behind you
really nice video, thanks a lot for the tips
I drive the LMP2. It is a fair video. I agree with all of it.
I would like to add that being predictable and not changing your line or speed at the last second goes a long way. Some drivers do it with good intentions even, but it usually ends up bad. Be predictable, please.
I really dislike when people get so mad they argue and disrespect other drivers. Yes, it might be someone else's fault but we all screw up at some point.
Be supportive, don't belittle others, and please, please, please, don't disrespect other no matter what they do. If you are salty, bite your tongue, and if need be, protest the driver.
I agree, it is a team effort.
Good video, Dave.
My Experience.. doing only V8 Supercars for almost a year with superfast Aussies , goes up to 4.2K iRating. Almost never been punted or crashed in a year.
Wanted to go back to GT, did last 3 weeks VRS Sprint... now I am at 3.7K iRating, drove only top split, got crashed, punted caught up in crashes, EVERY F**KING races. And last race I did at Daytonna, they were incidents/crashes EVERY laps, of 23 laps....
That is disgusting.
I watched Marc's stream of the crash at 12:30... Mr M. was rather upset to say the least... Your response was gold as well Dave XD
You have touched on every reason I stopped racing this year! As always, good content though
At around 7min maybe the GT3 also has no one to fight and could let him through because letting through in on corner doesn't cost as much as being held off through a couple of corners.
Great video Dave. Could you do another one for the GT Sport community too 😉😉.
I just done a endurance championship and the yellow Leo lmp2 cars was in the championship. They were always every clean so I could of just been a one off. Everyone makes mistakes sometimes I guess .
Great work Dave, hopefully this becomes a thing.
Just needs a logo now ;)