We BENT A Rod | Turbocharged FA20 Rebuild [GHETTO-BUILD]
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- Опубликовано: 9 июн 2019
- The turbocharged FA20 in our GT86 development car developed a bit of a knock while testing rolling anti-lag on out Mainline dyno a while back. Luckily Andre picked up the noise pretty quick so rather than a rod hanging out the side of the block we assumed all we had to contend with was a simple replacement. While that initial thought was mostly correct, there was a little bit more to this than anticipated…
So off the bat it should be known we have another FA20 in the pipeline that is going to have quite a number of upgrades and modifications, so rather than go to town on this engine we decided it was best to just replace the rods with some upgrades.
In the video you will learn how this was done, some of the issues we had to overcome that were both expected and unexpected, as well as learning about some of the options you might have if your big end clearances are incorrect upon reassembly as we discovered was the case with our King Racing bearings and Brian Crower rods, but luckily the fix was easy!
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Hi, may I know what Oil pick up mod did you guys use? As I know the OEM oil pick up is quite restrictive and causes some oil starvation issues
I just finished rebuilding my son FA 20 motor I had to get the rods tapered to fit the aftermarket pistons that he had bought. We used ARP studs for the heads. I had the crankshaft machine because he spun # 3 rod bearing. Use king bearings for the mains and the rods. Installing in the car this weekend. Hopefully runs good when I’m done. At a later date we’re going to be installing a supercharger. This is the first boxer motor I have rebuilt is a lot more complicated than any of the other engines I have rebuilt. I found a shop manual online I think it was 176 pages to do the rebuild
Epic...
How’s it hold up
Currently rebuilding an ej20 with my brother, im not a mechanic but i have found it alot harder than any other engines i have helped rebuild, which have been 2 6.6 litre inline 6 diesel engines
If that's a "getto build" you should see what have going on.
just goes to show how good of a tuner you are that it lasted this long. she served her time well, rip con rod
To be fair, if we hadn't needed to do a rolling antilag webinar it would still be going with the stock rods! 😔
Bent rods are nature's way of lowering the CR ;-)
GordoWG1 WG1 compression ratio?
@@dylanjoseph6010 Yes. ;-)
This is one of the only channels I wouldnt mind watchin ads for. Value provided ane done so well
Love the content! Lots of useful information and great explanations. I love the professionalism and approach you take with delivering all the content. Keep up the awesome work!
Great video with great information. Like how Andre went into detail on each subject the discussion covered. A+ as always
This video is perfect! I am currently right in the middle of figuring out the next step in my mr2 turbo 3sgte build and you answered pretty much all of my questions in regards to replacing forctory rods with aftermarket forged and without having the crank taken out. Thank you for the information!
The rods in the 3SGTE MR2 SW20 are actually pretty good right out of the box. Upgrading them certainly won't hurt but there's plenty of examples of that generation 3SGTE making north of 450-500 whp on stock rods. The rods in our FA20 are much weaker in stock form sadly! - Andre
@@hpa101 this is true from what I've heard! But for $375 I can get manley rods with new arp rod bolts. Seems like a no brainer
@@hpa101 What are your recommendations for the rods and pistons on the 1ZZ-FE?
great vid guys, great technical cues given with the FA/FB ;D
One eternity later : Almost spat my coffee all over my screen. Was not expecting that XD
Haha but how true is it!
Yo same! Hahahaha
Love the detail in this supposed ghetto build subscribed
Great video, very informational. I wanted to ask if you will ever do a video on the FA20 cylinder head. I wanted to learn moreabout them. I am currently building my engine to be able to handle higher boost levels. I just want to make sure that I do things correctly, even if it takes time.
That's about as ghetto as a Range rover is St Helliers. Nice work mate
great video mate.
Thank you Taz ,cool explanations
Andre is putting in the hard yards, but I'll take it haha. Chur! - Taz 👨🏻
So much knowledge man.
🥰
hi, i think the reason is the sever detonation that occurred on top of this piston only (piston rotation axes perpendicular to the gudgeon pin).
you should test your fuel injectors (bensh test), maybe there is a quantity drift, or install an O2 sensor on each cyl.
changing rods is a nice and bad idea, without removing the cause.
Thanks for the suggestion. We think we know the cause of the problem. Did you watch the video Paul we explain it all in there? - Ben
The heat cycling part is kinda sorta True. The bearing shells, rods and the main caps are made from different materials. The thermal expansion of each part is different and that does affect bearing crush a bit. I like to belive that warming the engine and is fluid's to operating temperature do help seating the bearing shells.
Heat cycling is also good for finding leaks and proper bleeding of the cooling system.
I do not build engines for a living, just some thoughts on my side.
Edit, typos and more.
With reference to the bearing shells, that's going to happen every time the engine warms up and really comes down to just not thrashing a stone cold engine. I'm a strong advocate for doing just that and even built in an 'anti-thrash' strategy in our M150 to prevent 'enthusiastic' driving below 60 C oil and coolant temp. The only other area which I'd consider is re-torquing the cylinder heads after the engine has been heat cycled - This is dependent on the engine and head gasket though.
Could you guys please make a step by step guide on how to tear down the FA20 and replace rods and pistons instead of a time-lapse? A video like that would be a life saver to me :)
I quite enjoyed that video. Cheers.
Awesome! Glad to hear that. We're trying to do a few more like this =) - Taz.
Thanks for dropping the knowledge, now I know, Peace
solid video!
Is it possible to get info on how much boost the car was running and for how long? Thanks 👍
more gt86 content! i love the info im learing
How has the car been since? I currently have forged pistons but they are eating oil heavily. I'm thinking of going back to OEM pistons and forged rods to maintain the small piston to wall clearances for my daily driver/weekend fun needs and longevity mileage reasons.
I've seen others bend stock rods with anti lag. What is it about the anti lag that causes the force to bend the rods? Is there any research to reference about cylinder pressures using anti lag?
Very interesting video shame the FA20 can’t take much boost. What turbo kit is that?
How does the efr6758 fit the avo kit? Are there any custom mounts that needed to be built or was it a simple drop in?
That’s why I liked buying cars new so I can bed them in properly, lots of light to medium load and engine breaking at the beginning and increasing rpm’s as needed until 500 miles. Has netted me 7 mpg more than rated and no oil usage or soot on tail pipes on all my new cars.
This is exactly what I was looking for. I wanted to see if on a relative new fa engine I could only change the rods and push the boost on a WRX. Please do a follow up video with power numbers. I just got subscribed just to follow this project.
We didn't really push it too much further, just to 14psi which sees it close to 400whp. For the tyre on the car and setup (including the gearbox made of matchsticks around 4th gear) that is enough for us - Taz.
Professional a.f! Great vid.
Thanks mate! - Taz.
Great content as usual, well done guys. ps anyone know how to like a video twice?
haha cheers for the support mate! We'll have some more updates on this car soon too - Taz.
13:48 Love that these videos are being edited in Adobe CC!
I break in my new vehicles by driving from the dealer to the track.
.... no? 🤔😎
I think you'll find this is the recommendation you'll see in every factory manual 🤣
How much boost you guys running before its started bent the conrods?
Another great video guys. 16:26 Is that the remote dyno cell in the background? It was nice to see some 'outside the classroom' videos where some other areas of the facility are seen. It looks like a nice facility. A little ironic that the engine I'm rebuilding to apply your engine building courses also had a bent rod, although from headgasket leaking coolant to the point of hydrolocking.
Yes sir, that's our remote practice dyno. We're hoping to bring out more content of a similar nature in the near future. Ah yes, water ingress can easily spell disaster for the poor conrod! (RIP) - Andre
@@hpa101 Thanks for the reply, Andre. Thanks to the vast amount of time I've spent listening to you, I can whip out your NZ accent at a moments notice at this point. Great fun in a party/pub moment.
I have always wondered why timing chains have guides instead of a swing arm/eccentric bolt style like a belt. Surely this would negate the use of guides which wear out surely, is there something I am missing in this subject?
i think its because guides, having constant contact with the chains (which have more mass than belts and could transfer any movement due to play or expanding when hot) keep from harmonic imbalances in the engine. also it spreads out any stress points on the chain instead of focusing tension on one section as in over a pulley/tensioner
Look forward to more content on this engine and platform
I may be missing some info from previous videos, but why you decide to sick with stock pistons? Considering that you were that deep in engine disassembly, why not add new pistons? Are they any good in stock FA?
This is explained in the video but there's quite a considerable extra cost with fitting forged pistons too. There's the cost of the pistons which is obvious but the cost of machining the block (and the fact it needs to be torn down to as bare block compared to what we've done here) is often overlooked.
Ultimately we've also had no trouble with piston strength as yet. We have another engine in the pipeline that is much more serious and also includes a set of JE pistons though. ;) Hope that info helps - Ben
When I started breaking in my engine I initially drove it about 50 miles on and off throttle, then changed the oil to the same conventional oil but left the oil filter which I'll change when I go to full synthetic at 1000 miles. Is it safe to do that or should I have changed the filter after the initial drive alongside the oil? It's a purolator boss filter.
I generally prefer to change the filter as I consider it very cheap insurance. It's definitely not a deal breaker if you haven't though.
Hi, great video! What procedure did you follow to prime the oil system/pump in the FA20 build?
We disassemble and clean the pump and then pack it with a moly based assembly lubricant. Vasoline is another common choice.
Thank you, keep up the good work!
Overall, would you recommand a built FA20 (connecting rods, piston, etc) in a FRS/BRZ as a platform for a racecar or is it not worth the hassle and another engine such as a 2JZ / LS / EJ would be a better option ?
Thanks !
It really depends on your budget, aims and personal preference. If you want a reliable 800 + hp then the FA20 probably isn't the smartest choice and a 2JZ or LS swap would be sensible. For applications in the 300-500 hp vicinity though a properly built FA20 should offer good reliability.
High Performance Academy Really thankful for your feedback! Keep up the amazing work, you’re providing the car community with some quality content.
I love the lower mount turbo, where did you pick it up from?
It's originally from AVO in Australia however we've made some pretty dramatic modifications to it including a different turbo (BW EFR 6758) and adding double slip joints to the long runners.
We build engines, same day we put on the dyno and no problem. Race cars can't go on normal roads to break in.
Couldn't agree more!
Hopefully the pistons don't let go now you've got fixed the original weak link
Yeah that would be typical haha We should be safe enough though, not going for anything extreme with this engine since the next one is in the pipeline already =) - Taz.
Its the sort of thing that would happen to me 😭, but you guys seem far more sensible than I am 🤣🤣
High performance academy drinking game, every time he says machinist take a shot
You're on. See you at beer o'clock on Friday - Taz 👨🏻
Do you have a part number for these rods that work with the oem pistons. I looked for them but see no notes regarding them on the website.
Not on hand sorry, but a quick email should get things sorted ;) - Taz.
I know im late on this video but im thinking of turbo charging my engine and i do not want to sacrifice reliability so if i replaced connecting rods and pistons with forged how much boost can safely be utilized for this engine
I think we were around 10 PSI which gave about double the output. Anti-lag is the only thing that the factory rods hated as Andre mentions - Taz.
@@hpa101 alright thanks so much i really hope to get the money to take yalls classes some day thanks again
Thank you guys for your videos. As I’m delving deeper into my cars’ builds, I’m starting to get into specific details when blueprinting an engine.
In the case that you’d reuse the pistons but want new rings, would a dingleberry hone be sufficient assuming the bores look okay? Scouring the internet, internet people make it seem almost blasphemous to reuse pistons and rings after removing from the cylinder.
You really want to bed fresh rings into a freshly honed bore. We have not done a DIY dingleberry hone, maybe for a low power/budget application that is fine to take the risk.
If you're happy to try it knowing you might have to pull it all apart to do it again, why not I guess, but if you're like us and you don't have the time to waste on something like that in an engine that you are racing, even at a club level, then there's no point messing around.
TL:DR If your pistons are fine, while it can be frowned upon for sure, reuse them, we're not all made of money, but get those rings setup right unless you are made of spare time - Taz.
While you at it please go ahead and change the valve springs if its factory ones in
You're not the boss of me 😜 - Taz 👨🏻
Yeah, the rods seem to be the weak point. Of course the engine was not designed for turbo-charging. Thanks to your experience, others can immediately replace the rods and all is well. Do you foresee any other problem areas?
To be fair the rods only really didn't hold up well to anit-lag, even mild. We only ran that for lessons on it so I doubt it's a problem many will see.
Outside of that though, the gearbox is the MAJOR weak point in these to the point there is almost no boost in 4th gear which is the weakest of them - Taz.
What front lip is that?
Can u guys upload the clip/event during that damage exactly happens?
Sadly we weren't recording. But it was really similar to 1:02 - Ben
I’ve been watching a lot of videos about engine rebuilds, turbo kits, etc. In none of those videos did they say it was a ghetto build. RUclips just automatically started this video from another one I was watching, after I left the room. So what makes this a ghetto build? Was it the parts you used? If this is a high performance academy, why is anything ghetto?
Don't make me post the knock knock joke again Taz, damn reuploads. 😈😁
Go on, do it, the old you would have 😜- Taz.
@@hpa101 The new me will aswell but now you're expecting it which spoils it. 😉
Knock knock.
"Who's there?"
Rod. 😎
@@MafiaboysWorld just as good the second time around!
@@MafiaboysWorld
-knock knock,
-Who's there?
-Detonation.
I see myself out.
Is this the reason there's an unclickable link in my notifs named "Turbocharged FA20. Con Rods and Bearing Clearances"?
Yeah, sorry about that. Had a problem with the sound in our original upload. This is the same video. :) - Ben
Send that block to CylinderSupportSystem and we will close that deck in proper for you!!!
On this engine we don't intend to push it far enough for the open deck design to become a limitation. We do have another FA20 we're building though and we've close-decked it in house in a similar way to what CSS do. Unfortunately from NZ the return freight to the US for this service would have been prohibitive. If we were state side it would have been a no brainer! - Andre
why not go with forged pistons?
Because we are on another build that is already underway. Andre does cover that in the video :) - Taz.
Won't the new connecting rods effect the balance of the crankshaft? Very good video.
Actually in a horizontally opposed 4 cylinder the way the pistons and rods operate means that they cancel each other out so the pistons and rods can be balanced independently of the crankshaft. If this was a V6 or V8 it would be a different deal.
@@hpa101 Thanks for the reply! Great info.
Great video. I would appreciate shorter explanations or adding the full process not sped up of the work you are doing to the engine. (even if the vid is like an hour-long)
Cut on Adobe premiere then, quick flash of the image stabilization analyser :D
I hope you clicked =P - Taz.
@@hpa101 naturally
You can find the manuals on ft86club forums
Cheers for sharing the tip! - Taz.
Thank god.
I LOVE your dog. What breed?
Kris, thanks mate. She's the best. She is a Swiss Shepherd. - Ben
Why grind the rods? Instead of machine the pistons to suit the rod
Purely because the amount of material we'd need to remove would have weakened the pistons.
@@hpa101 You mentioned there's options for rods that already have the machine work done for OEM pistons. Where did you find these?
They became available from the same company AFTER we had already machined ours. Murphy's Law haha - Taz.
What happened to that polar bear?
She turned blue - www.hpacademy.com/blog/racecraft-toyota-86-build-update/ - Taz.
Drop in a beams blacktop in that GT
Why not just buy new pistons compatible with the rods?
This is explained in the video but there's quite a considerable extra cost with fitting forged pistons too. There's the cost of the pistons which is obvious but the cost of machining the block (and the fact it needs to be torn down to as bare block compared to what we've done here) is often overlooked. Ultimately we've also had no trouble with piston strength as yet. We have another engine in the pipeline that is much more serious and also includes a set of JE pistons though ;)
you could always throw a superior Honda K24 engine in there and have better luck.
Thanks for the offer, we're here all weekend mate, bring it around and away you go 😂😛 - Taz.
Ez30 swap time
This will forever remain an FA20. There is a V8 in the black 86 already that scratches the engine swap itch nicely though. She's a bit different now, but here is a bit on that other 86: ruclips.net/video/gDYIgBnYvi4/видео.html - Taz.
Why would you ruin an 86 with a boxer? Yuck
It's not for sale so I wouldn't worry too much as you'll never have to drive or own it 😜 - Taz.
How can you call it a ghetto build when you use BC rods, lol!!
You have a point, but the BC Rods are to solve the issue, reusing the other parts is the 'ghetto' bit :) - Taz.
When even hpa can’t build a reliable fa20 nobody can. I’ll never own a shitty Subaru boxer engine
No engine is a fan of antilag to be fair remembering this is a modified setup and not something that rolled out of the factory like this either. Everything has pros and cons regardless of the brand or cylinder orientation - Taz.
Is the machinist drunk?. One side is ground more than the other.
You really have to question Subarus rational on using angled rods. Shame.
Questchaun I remember hearing somewhere that they did it to make it easier for automated machines to assemble the whole engine.
The angled cap allows the piston and rod assembly to be removed from the block instead of the early EJ series where the rods were fitted to the crank before assembling the two halves of the engine block and then the piston was assembled onto the rod. Despite this though, that's not the cause of the rod failure and it's simply down to the strength in the beam of the rod.
They are angled to handle the load for the direction the engine is turning.... So i dont see what you mean
@@invertedv12powerhouse77 First I've heard of that! Previous generation ej had straight rods. If you read high performance answer it makes sense. I did some more searching and there is a claim about trying to reduce wear on the wear and friction on the cylinder walls. Anyway you go about it seems the rods are the weak point of the fa20 and fa20dit.
Here is a great video from MRT
ruclips.net/video/e_tarRMBAd4/видео.html
@@Questchaun go search up how skinny the con rods for stock fa20s are.... Their like as thick as my finger
After 19 years in the trade, it blew my mind that you decided to machine a taper into the small end of the rods and maintain the shitty cast factory pistons. It's seem to me the approach is a little backwards in the train of thought going into beefing up the motor. Are a set of pistons really outside the budget of the channel? That can't be it. I know your building a proper motor for it at the same time, but come on guys. Why put nice expensive rods in it with cast factory pistons? Makes no sence, my man...
Yes you COULD get them machined to fit factory pistons from BC- but if you've gone to the effort of stripping the motor like that, why the hell would you take the chance on those crap cast pistons. These motors are SO underpowered from factory, a 100% increase in power will still mean it's relatively slow and gutless still. Now if you had thrown pistons in it and ARP heads studs with some good aftermarket MLS headgaskets you could be more in the range of 150 - 200% increase in power and it'd actually be something of worth then. I'd be surprised if this thing could run a low 13 the way you've built it, it COULD have just as easily be a 12 or maybe even an high 11 second car. It's not what i would recommend to one of my customers considering the labour to remove the motor, strip it and put just rods in it. As far as getting your money's worth out of what's happening you'd have to recommend the pistons to be done too
NA engine has weak rods because they aren't designed for forced induction. That is why, on turbo cars the cast pistons tend to be the weak point. Water methanol injection will says your pistons at high load. Turbo engines can easily double the output with stock bottom ends.
@@dj4monie yeah that's all fine and dandy bro. I'm a qualified mechanic of 19 years. I build engines on a daily basis. Maybe you don't know much about the ins and outs of piston design- but N/A engines position the top comp ring a lot closer to the piston crown, whereas a piston designed for boost will have a thicker crown, a lower position of the top comp ring and a pressure relief groove in between the 1st and 2nd comp rings. Then there's the fact the cast pistons are weak and prone to shattering under detonation whereas a forgie is stronger and can take more of a beating- but also the piston won't shatter- it deforms and stays together- saving you from destroying the whole motor. Piston design is very important in a big hp motor- and this thing will never be a big hp motor with THOSE pistons bro. They are so gutless from factory, they don't feel quick until you start pushing a 150 - 200% increase in power. That last part is not meant as a statement of fact, but rather my opinion on what a quick car should feel like. Cheers
@@danielbrealey2924 I'm pretty sure we already covered this in detail within the video but sure I'll go over it again. While you've referred to the stock pistons as 'shitty' and 'crap', that isn't our experience so you must know something about them we don't. While some factory pistons are genuinely weak, most failures in cast pistons are a result of poor tuning resulting in knock - Tune the engine correctly and you may be surprised what that 'shitty' cast piston will handle 😎Given we've been making more than double the stock power on the factory pistons for the last 4 years, I've got no reason to be concerned. Clearly 400 plus hp isn't enough for your liking but we didn't build it to impress you. We built it to be a well balanced track day car and given it's only marginally slower than a Ferrari 488 around our local track we'd argue it's getting the job done.
It's easy to say that we should 'just put pistons in it' but that ignore the extra cost for the pistons and then the machining required to fit them. Plus we then need to strip the block completely and ship it to our machinist which would add time. This video shows a legitimate option for this particular engine that can save a significant chunk of cash if your power target is in the 400-450 hp zone. Why spend more than necessary fixing things that aren't broken 💁🏻♂️
Must be an Evo owner salty Subaru are still making cool cars and engines.
Think about it, a lot of people do this, or the exact opposite. Sr20s and rb’s are great for keeping stock rods and putting forged pistons in to keep cost down, and as Andre said a shit tuner will fuck whatever engine you give them, built or not built.
Great video, and a great spotlight on what can be done on a budget to gain reliability.