When Great Games Have Terrible Beginnings
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- Опубликовано: 2 дек 2020
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"It gets good... Eventually" it's an observation that you've no doubt heard before about the latest TV show, book, game or whatever. By this point, it's all but expected that any game over a particular length won't actually be fun for several play sessions until you've got it all figured out. But does this need to be the case? The Architect doesn't think so.
By re-examining the job of introductions in games, we can fix this problem of boring tutorials AND make them more effective in the long run. How? Well The Architect is on their way back from their third trip to Alrest so just hold on a second, things will get more interesting in a bit....
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You Saw:
The Witcher 2 (2011)
Metal Gear Solid 5 (2015)
Dota 2 (2013)
The Legend fo Zelda: Twilight Princess (2006)
Undertale (2015)
No Man's Sky (2016)
Xenoblade Chronicles 2 (2017)
Doom Eternal (2020)
Far Cry 5 (2018)
Minecraft (2009)
Sunless Skies (2019)
The Pathless (2020)
Horizon Zero Dawn (2017)
Hollow Knight (2017)
Bugsnax (2020)
Xenoblade Chronicles: Definitive Edition (2020)
Megamax X (1993)
THe Stanley Parable (2011)
Dark Souls (2012)
Bayonetta 2 (2014)
Sid Meir's Civilisation 6 (2016)
Heaven's Vault (2019)
Bioshock (2007)
XCOM: Enemy Unknown (2012)
The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild (2017)
Warframe (2013)
Dark Souls 3 (2016)
Citizen Kane (1942)
Fire Emblem 3 Houses (2019)
Dark Souls 2 (2014)
Lord of The Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring (2001)
The Mandalorian (2019)
Ring of Pain (2020)
Final Fantasy 7 (1997)
Metroid Prime (2002)
A Hat In Time (2017)
DOOM (2016)
Wandersong (2018)
There is No Game: Wrong Dimension (2020)
Mass Effect 2:(2012)
Mirror's Edge (2008)
Hearthstone (2014)
Super Mario Bros (1985)
For The King (2017)
Transistor (2014)
Sunless Seas (2015) 
Игры
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Why you caled Xenoblade Chronicles 1 at 10:04 way more sucesfull then Xenoblade Chronicles 2?When Xenoblade Chronicles 2 has sold 2 million copies as of November 2020, becoming the best-selling title in the Xeno series, and Monolith Soft's most commercially successful game.
You forgot the link to your OF :P
Another awesome video!
@@rafalb692 I think he just meant it was more effective at getting the player invested from the get go, not that the game itself was more successful.
+
This video gets good about 5 minutes in just stick with it.
Damn that's savage lmao
Comment of the decade!
Actually it got good after 19 minutes
I stopped after the first 0.1 nanosecond. If he can't captivate me by then, it's his fault.
I mean, you’re not wrong
Loved the intro in Portal 2
"Press spacebar to talk"
Within seconds the player learns how to jump and that they may suffer from brain damage, but more importantly that the game will trick them and that humor plays a big role.
The portal games are great at starts
Honestly, Portal is a masterpiece of comedy.
@@julianxamo7835 Portal 1 start is pretty boring imo.
@@danny.halstead2181 Agreed. Those first 10 minutes of being trapped are not the best... dunno if tehy tell any good jokes or not
@@icarue993 10 minutes? You know you only stay one minute in the relaxation chamber, and although yeah it is pretty boring it's definitely not as bad as you make it sound like
dark souls: so this is how you move...
also dark souls: anyway, here’s your first boss fight.
also dark souls: don't worry, you'll figure it out yourself.
_THAT'S_ how you start a game!
@@Stratelier Dark Souls first boss fight IS the tutorial
Well, it is a good introduction for the game, Dark Souls 3 in particular. The game tells you upfront: "If you can't muster the patience to learn the moves of this boss and eventually beat him, you're not gonna enjoy the rest." This way it doesn't waste the player's time if they don't go into it with the right mindset.
@@jmdefault Except Darks Souls III has its first boss be too easy. I beat it first try, even though I'm shit at Dark Souls III lmao.
Breath of the wild has my favourite opening of any game ever. I love the great plateau is a tutorial that doesn't really teach you anything. Everything you learn in the great plateau is because you've looked for it, or have tried it. The old man might tell you something, but you don't have to talk to him unless he's asking you to find the shrines.
What makes the platuea so special, is that you're thrown into a petty large area where its up to you to figure out what to do. It's like a miniature version of the actual map
For real. One of the best open world introductions ever.
Magnesis shrine points to Gorons. Bomb shrine points to sea (could have had Divine Beast there at some point in conception). Stasis trial points to Gerudo. Cryonis points to Rito. Great Plateau Tower points to Kakariko, Hateno, and the Zoras. Shrine of Resurrection is in the center of Great Plateau, like how Hyrule Castle is in the center of the map.
MMORPG players: "Just level to max level, that's when the game starts"
New players: " Are you serious?"
Ex: FF 14 pulls you in at the beginning of Heavenward and never lets you go, but you have to grind through the generic and mediocre 20-40 hours of ARR.
well yes, but actually ....no
you're gonna need raid gear.....attunements........an entire guild.
and no life.
tbh that just always sounded like the mmorpg failure. mmorpgs do manage to do well. first example is obvious - old wow. raiding at max level was good and all, but battling for resources, questing spots etc in stranglethorn vale was a game of it's own. you know... the whole alliance vs horde thing actually mattering. another example - guild wars 1, you learn about game mechanics through the story. opening new main hub areas at certain moments. once you are all done with that - you can go to pvp or just use that character to unlock pvp things for creating pvp-only characters (prefered option) oooor you can make pvp-only character immediatelly and unlock things that way. the choice... is yours. third entirely different example is a bit questionable - swtor. plot for something like imperial agent is pretty damn good and it could have been a singleplayer game the entire time. game being multiplayer didnt add much for me. however, the plot is interesting from start to finish so technically you dont have to be 'max level'.
@Irfan Spirtovic its worth it if u enjoy the game. people buy for movies and other foods every month for much higher.
God forbid you have to put effort and time into a game. Aren't you the people that complain games are too short?
"Here's kind of a golden rule of level design: finish the first level last," - John Romero of Doom
That makes sense. Recently, I finished making my game mechanics and now I am working on levels. I played around with using different character's abilities to make levels. Right now I have made lots of hard levels only I can beat as I am the only one who knows the mechanics perfectly. I will now have to start making first levels which would introduce players to these mechanics.
I'm pretty sure the dude that made Mario said the same thing.
Yes but that can make the rest of the game pale in comparison. God of war had that philosophy and the third one especially gets worse the longer it goes (imo)
@@606hunter1 you don't have to start at the final level and work your way back, it's just SO important to get the introduction right that you should leave that for last.
mrBorkD I think you misunderstood my comment so I'll try to explain better. I don't want the devs to showcase their best in the beginning cause then the rest of the game falls flat for me. God of war 3 was this way for me cause nothing in the rest of the game came close to its opening.
Personally, I think flash forwards are a very effective way to circumvent it. You can show part of a great moment from late in the game and draw people in. Uncharted 2, nier Automata, trails of cold steel, etc do a great job of this imo
Totally agree that the beginning is important tho
imo the loss of instruction books forcing games to teach you everything inside the game has caused huge problems for game intros. The old system of “here’s the game, if you’re confused then maybe you might want to read this” gives much more freedom for players to learn, and for designers to introduce their creation.
Couldn't agree more. But sometimes, on a rare occasion, a game comes with an digital instruction book. But such "new" games might actually be "super rare" these days.
i've never even thought of this, but you're right back then we didn't have tutorials in every game and i just believed it was because controllers were simpler back then and you could just figure it out. i believe having a little digital booklet in the settings menu or something instead of these long tutorials wouldn't be a terrible idea, but i'm probably in the minority.
Carrier command 2 and VTOL VR have these, CC2 has the guide in game, but doesn't mean you have to read it, you can jump into it right away, or spend a bit reading it
Vtol is somewhat the same
considering those booklets were sometimes inaccurate, used to save space for the game and saying "if you don't understand how to play the game, then go read our instruction that may not be clear and you won't be able to immediately try out everything you've read about" is awful. games are much more complex nowadays and having actual tutorials helps a lot. and most games still have help windows that do the same thing booklets did, but better
@@DorkN313 Agreed. Manuals, are a thing of the past and thats good. Given some of the manuals had charme and were really well made, its just such a pace breaker when you want to play a game you have to read instructions first. Thats an indicator for bad or lazy game design. Great games teach you all the mechanics along the way.
Oh so many times I heard this, now I've taken "it gets better later" as code for "this game has pacing problems".
"It gets better" is only a good excuse if something was a 1-man project, like an indie game.
@@LimeyLassen Hollow Knight is a good example. The pacing for the first three areas could have been better. But they're not total slogs.
I mean it’s debatable. If the combat gets better/deeper it might be that way not to scare away casual players. Developers want as many players to enjoy their game. And hardcore gamers are probably more likely to stick to a game than casuals.
@@thesnatcher3616 Apparently I'm the only person on the planet who thinks that, but I already absolutely loved the game even this early on. It's a tiny bit annoying on replays only, but since you know where you're going, it takes like 40 minutes anyway.
@@legrandliseurtri7495 Yeah it's not bad at all. It's quite great actually once you realize what it's trying to do. Fungal Wastes and Greenpath are really well designed but people might get stuck due to how big Fungal Wastes and Forgotten Crossroads are, especially for the people who aren't used to metroidvanias.
The skyrim opening after the 999 time playing it.
Hey you, you're finally awake.
@@fz000ghost8 you were trying to cross the border right
@@notajalapeno4442 Walked right into that Imperial ambush same as us and that thief over there.
Yeah, that opening had absolutely no business being in Skyrim.
@@fz000ghost8 Damn you Stormcloaks. Skyrim was fine until you came along. Empire was nice and lazy.
The worst thing about this is that all that hard work completely kills a game's replayability. There are so many game's I want to play again, but am completely put off by the grind you had to go through in the begining.
A tragedy personally for me is going through the grind and stop playing for ages then wanting come back and only then realized you have no cloud save and have to start over. Happen to me with Yu-Gi-Oh Duel Links, only had 2 deck that properly functions, but enjoyed using, stop for 3 years, came back, realize all my progress is gone, and boy is it painful.
Agreed.
Ironically, this is when the "gacha" aspect comes into play when talking about XC2, I have play that games 4 times from the start and getting different blades each time kept the game fresh for me. The reason why gacha is consider to be bad thing is because when real money is involved, it is essentially gambling, xeno 2 doesn't ask the player to buy microtransactions.
@@JoseDorda Isn't that just RNG (like borderlands loot)
@@Spartan-sz7km what do you mean? That the problem with blades in xenoblade is RNG?
Yea, for as much as I love Xenoblade 2, the only reason why I kept playing was because I refused to waste the 60 bucks I'd spent on buying it on a whim. But when I finally got hooked, I was absolutely addicted.
This! I spent 90 bucks to buy the game and dlc, and didn’t want to put that money to waste, so powered through the first few hours. I though I had wasted my money until I stepped out onto gormott proper, and then I was completely hooked. I ended up spending 260+ hours with NG+ and S ranking everything
@@nicoace2771 Same thing happened with me. I absolutely love xenoblade 2 now but did actually quit it for month after the boring first 2 hours. Now I think it an absolutely brilliant game and was sad to put it away after completely literally everything the game had to offer, 350 hours later.
I gave up on it 15 hours in. Too much tutorial. But these comments and video are making me want to try again
@@jakilla23 I can't promise you'll like it, but for me that game was one of my favourites in years. When I was finally done with it, I didn't want it to end but I had literally completed everything the game had to offer. The tutorials do last a long time and the full combat isn't explained until probably more than 15 hours. The game itself doesn't explain it well, which is my biggest criticism. I had to use a youtube tutorial to explain it and then it all clicked and was awesome. There's a huge range of how to approach combat and which blades to use, they are not just pallet changes, once you get an understanding. The game just sucks at providing that understanding. I recommend you giving it another try. Between the likable characters, the story, the gameplay, it's easily my favourite xeno game since Xenogears on the PS1. That game was a frikkin masterpiece
@@jakilla23 just drop it, it sucks
"About 90 minutes into the game" or 4 hours for me. Since i kept just walking around the environments and loving the art style
Dear God I don't want to imagine how long it would take to 100% the game. It might just take a year...
Well it is better than me at least. I am still playing breath of the wild to this day...
@@thing4826 *laughs in chuggaconroy*
@@Thinepickles even he said he probably didnt get every single treasure chest
I was so amazed with Argentum, that I didn't know if I wanted to progress in the game
Here's an interesting one: Bad games with Good beginnings.
Final Fantasy 15
@@ashegrey2321 THIS THIS THIS!!!
I’d say Fable 3
@@ashegrey2321 The "beginning" of FFXV is in a CGI movie and anime series though.
The first case in Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney is the best case in the game, so you have pretty high standards for the rest of the cases, which end up being either slow-paced, boring, obvious (you can tell who's the real killer from the beginning), or really confusing (the last case is really weird and is unlike anything else in the game).
It gets good later is another way of saying the pacing needs to be better
Dem rly?
Exactly. And if something good isn't delivered we'll you can't really claim its all that good haha
Its also saying it lacks a hook. I don't care how great a game or book is later, any masterpiece of fiction should have a good hook to catch the viewer.
Fair! Though the pacing in the rest of the game might be fine... still, I agree
@@leviangel97 interesting take. For some reason I can't pallet that unless a game is heavily segmented bit by chapters or eps.
Honestly the intro the Spider-Man 2018 game was a gem for me. It put you straight into the game while teaching you the controls so you could get straight into it but didn't feel like it was disconnected from the main game or feel too shoehorned in.
Plus what really sold it was he location it started in. It looked really nice and set the atmosphere
exactly all games should have intros like both the spiderman games did.
Meanwhile rdr2 sticks you on a horse plodding slowly through some featureless snow for a few years while gravelly voices mumble away. It literally took me a few minutes to figure out which character I was controlling and even longer to figure out which slight variant on "growly tough man" was meant to be my voice.
I'm told it "gets good later" but that's just code for "yeah it's shit for a while before it figures itself out" and I feel like that's not my fault when other games do it so well
One game with a really good intro was the force unleashed, the first thing you get to do is play as darth vader, who doesn't have any movement options but is pretty much unkillable and all of his abilities are really powerful and simple to use, so you feel like a god blasting through grunts and throwing entire bridges around with little chance of losing control. It then introduces the story when you kill a jedi and find starkiller and make him your apprentace because he has even more force promise than vader. So when you start the game proper as starkiller who's far less powerful you're enticed by the promise of becoming even more powerful than vader and want to push through to get there.
Other FPS´s tutorial: Use WASD to walk, move mouse to look around, use left click to shoot, use...
DOOM 2016 tutorial: You already know how this works, you been doing this for 20 years.
Polygon: Left stick control aiming, right?
Damn, why doesn't this game have a tutorial? We aren't all professional gamer!
@@Ryzen776 the sad part is that someone at ID listened, the boss fight spoilers in Doom Eternal is the stupidest design choice ever. Turned that crap off instantly.
@@sopota6469 at least it can be turned off
@@ko-ZHI12345 you are not, 2016 is better in almost every aspect.
To be fair. There are probably kids playing shooters and they need the tutorials. Don’t know why you would even bother with caring about a tutorial lol.
*Apparent important character dying in the first hours of the game*
Ace Attorney fans: first time?
Danganronpa fans: not really
Mega Spoilers For Xenoblade 1 Below
Ironically both Mia and Fiora come back later and are both still important characters for their respective game's plot.
FGO Fans: we know that feeling (Olga dies in the end of "tutorial")
@@brambl3014 nice snafu pfp
Megaman Fans: hello there~
I recently played XC2, you’re right on the gaming mechanics part, the tutorials and limitations at early chapters are pretty rough. But story wise, I have to disagree, because there are so many little details that kept me hooked since the beginning. Pyra said “we” were created in the Elysium, Malos asks her about her appearance, she acknowledges she does not draw power from fire, Gramps seems more shocked to see Malos than Jin even though Jin is clearly the leader… Since the beginning I just felt something does not add up, so I kept going until it made total sense.
Those are good points! I think the slower nature of chapter 2 is what loses people despite those intrigues which is a shame because it still has a lot going on in it despite the lighthearted and animey stuff
@@emblemblade9245 I don't know what's the problem with early chapter, which are the chapter of world building, people just want some action I think lol or they got turned off by the japanese humor
Xenoblade Chronicles 2's story is easily in my opinion gaming's best story.
@@andr0zzsenpai I tried so hard to get into xc2 but the writing is really bad and basic, I expected way more. And the "humor" is just cringeworthy in that game, I played through P4G and found the interactions in that game bearable since the characters were nice,(eventually found them enjoyable) but in xc2? Lmao, only good thing was the combat. (Sorry for the rant I was just very disappointed lmao)
@@rafaelc.c. idk if it’s the best period but it’s certainly one of the best I’ve played. To be honest I think I might prefer the story to xenoblade 1, although I do think that story is better structured and overall better written.
"You bought a Doom game. You already want to shoot demons." You know, I never really thought about it that way, but yeah. That's all Doom is, and it's great. You distilled a pretty darn good franchise into eleven words.
No wonder the Doom series have fallen in popularity over the decades. They add nothing new. Mindlessly pressing the trigger.
Did you see that Pinky I just killed? Neither did I. I don't think I need to see it.
Fallen in popularity? Are you kidding me? Doom 2016 and Eternal are beloved!
@@draugnaustaunikunhymnphoo6978 XD
@@emblemblade9245 No, those are kids who never played the old ones. Any Doom veteran gets bored playing the new shitty ones.
@@draugnaustaunikunhymnphoo6978 dude youre fully allowed to not like the new games but saying that they’re just holding the trigger and moving is straight wrong. It’s just as much about picking enemies, choosing where to move, choosing what gun to use, when to glorykill/chainsaw/grenade/burn/blood punch etc.
The best tutorials are the ones that trick you into not realize they're a tutorial.
Nintendo ones and Valve ones
Good tutorials, the ones that last less than 30 minutes.
@@alosnocallereal1734 you just don't have patience dude
I don't think all games can do this, depending on what it's trying to teach. The more complicated the concept, the harder it is to do organically.
@Nero The Backwards Oren you just play some simple games maybe more 3 mechanics may be incomprehensible for you
Enjoy your button-mashing brainlessly
Y'know, with Xenoblade 2, I had one save file where I got to Uraya, stopped playing one day and didn't pick it back up until about a year later. When I did finally pick it up though, I restarted and forced my way past where I was before. Slowly, the game started to grow on me, where eventually, I played it for hours on end because it was so good. So yeah, I completely agree with the "it gets good" mentality here.
I also stopped there, 3 separate times
And so did 2 of my friends
I think uraya is just a bad zone
I played the game back in 2017 (got to the very boss fight before my Switch got stolen, didn’t see the ending cutscene). I liked it, didn’t really understand the whole story/lore so was a little confused. Overall I enjoyed my time 8/10.
Two years later or so I wanted to see the ending, and I also wanted to complete my save on the new Switch so I rushed through the game having custom settings just to see the story/ending. Still a 8/10
Then I XC:DE (Loved it first time 10/10) was the next, and after finishing that I wanted to play more Xenogames. Luckily I never played Torna DLC so I played that also loved it 10/10. It gave a lot of backstory to Mythra, so I wanted to play XC2 yet another time on New Game Plus.
I finished it recently (trying to 100% it now) And it’s easily a 10/10 for me. Now I fully understand the combat and story and its amazing tbh.
@@Softlol I completely agree lmao. Xenoblade 2 was my first game in the series and I thought it was pretty good on its own. However, after playing XCDE and Torna I grew a new appreciation for XC2. I think XC2 does have some things that it could improve on but it's still one of my favorite switch games.
Yeah I've stopped twice now playing Xenoblade 2 and its like do the fact of the slow 5 hour beginning making me hate the combat story and exploration. I still own it and might try to make it to where everyone says it gets good but I have many good games that start fun so ill have to come back later.
@@cincinnatixdxd5055 The game just not might be for you. But the fun part of combat (and story) is in the later half and especially end game.
My favorite part about mgs5 opening is that, while it's a slog, it IMMEDIATELY throws you into learning the stealth mechanics. I particularly love the part where your laying on the ground pretending to be part of the pile of bodies, and a guy flips you over and you're CLEARLY alive, but because you're technically prone, he doesn't really notice. The game shows you in a funny weird way that you are hard to see while prone. Amongst other clever things in that opening
I would also argue that the introduction cutscene of a game usually does a lot of heavy lifting in the story intro department. For me, what got me hooked with Xenoblade immediately was the story about the two humanoid titans being the world at which we traverse. To me, that's so evocative and enticing compared to an ocean of clouds with animal-style titans populating it.
I must thank super mario bros. for teaching me how to jump in real life. the thrill of doing it for the first time made me feel like all of the practice inside super mario bros. paid off for real life. I must thank it for its incredible design in allowing me to achieve one of my wildest dreams.
since when did they make jumping into a real thing? ive gotta try this out
lmao
Jokes aside, I've probably played Super Mario 64 before I learned how to jump IRL.
Not gonna lie, I was really disappointed when he did nothing with that and went on to his normal way to long and unnecessary outro
@@Pizza7478 probably because there's already tens of hundreds of 1-1 analysis videos on youtube
"Spoilers: They die" - Shakespeare in a nutshell.
Spoilers: they get pursued by a bear
*Life in a nutshell
Not actually true. Shakespeare actually wrote more comedies than tragedies.
Taming of the shrew, A Midsummer Night's Dream, As You Like It, The Merchant of Venice, The Tempest, The Winter's Tale, A Comedy of Errors, etc...
He's most famous for his tragedies, but they are actually the smaller portion of his work.
@@contrabardus I think he means that some Shakespeare plays like Romeo and Juliet begin with a prologue that mentions that certain characters will die.
@@contrabardus Twelfth Night, nobody dies at all
As much as it gets memed, my first time going through the Skyrim I toro was what hooked me on the rest of the game. I think they nailed the intro there.
The bit about players needing to proactively participate over multiple sessions arguably makes books closer than movies
The pressure to create games with “lots of content” goes hand-in-hand with this issue. There is unfortunately a vocal subset of gamers out there that insist that the number of hours a game takes to complete directly translates into its value, and so developers are pressured to pad out their games. We end up with a lot of games that have 10 or so hours of engaging gameplay and good ideas stretched out over a 50-80 hour play time. The majority of the experience is dreadfully boring, and because gameplay systems are parceled out gradually along with the narrative, the game often doesn’t even feel like a complete experience mechanically until the very end.
^ This
I think a series that does this masterfully is Yakuza. There are so many side-quests and mini-games that have absolutely no bearing on the larger story, but are each engaging and fleshed out enough that you don't feel as though you are wasting your time. In fact, they're so well crafted that you can sometimes find yourself preferring to complete them over the main story. Also, the leveling system is beautifully crafted to allow you to always be at least on par with enemies regardless of your time spent grinding.
This is one of the main problem with XC2, it takes 10-15 hours before the combat gets good, and 30-40 before it gets amazing. You are only halfway through the game at that point though (and I think newer players would be very overwhelmed if the game gave you every tool from the start)
I qould argue that if games were cheaper the general populace, who can perhaps only afford a few big name games a year could be pickier about what kind of experience they want. I dont want to sell developers short of course, but if my main method of relaxing is on a game and I can only blow £50 on a game every few months then that game does kind of need to stretch those few months. Even with high replayability there are few games that can match that that arent grindy colectathons.
@@cameronphenix2096 Yakuza is the only series with a ton of content that hasn't managed to bore me in the same ways that, for example, Ubisoft games do. if you're gonna make a game with a ton of content, don't just have it be a rehashed gameplay mechanic that makes you go through the motions, make it /interesting/.
I'm not going to lie. The only reason I kept playing xenoblade 2 was because I was flying a lot one year and it was the only single player game I had that I hadn't played to hell yet. And then the game finally took off and I was addicted
How far in? I played xenoblade 2 for 30 hours and it never “got good”. I can’t tell if I still didn’t play long enough, or if it’s just not for me
@@charlesdickens3214 I can't remember off of the top of my head. But around the third titan is where I really fell in love with the game. When roaming through the wastes came on the first time, I was hooked.
@@charlesdickens3214 It's fine.. Every game is not every one's cup of tea. Most people says Hollowknight is a Masterpiece but I get pretty bored by it also.. I'm not into platforming but I loved the whole classic metroid and old school castlevania games. It's just not the game for me..
@@charlesdickens3214 then it's probably not for you
@@charlesdickens3214 I started getting hooked on the third titan as well. If the story didn’t seem interesting to you then I guess its not for you. If you didn’t like the combat I suggest watching a tutorial on youtube as the in game ones are trash.
XBC2 hooked me immediately. Because I look for different things in RPGs I guess. Mostly: Is the world interesting enough, Is the Soundtrack good enough, and does the game convey a good atmosphere. Sure gameplay and interesting mechanics are important too. But those usually become more important in the middle of the game. Those 3 things are the ones that are crucial at the beginning for me.
Twilight Princess's beginning is much like the first act of Wall-E: it works all right on its own, but is really appreciated on your second or third time through. It also teaches you a bunch of mechanics that aren't really used much anywhere else in the game for some reason.
Actually, now that I think about it, quite a few ideas were left on the cutting room floor: for example, you were originally intended to sumo-wrestle each of the Gordon elders in the Mines in order to get their key pieces.
I love Twilight Princess's opening I like how it gives you genuine reason to care for the people you are supposed to save. And how the world slowly opening up makes each area interesting to explore.
4:34 "stop playing entirely"
Me, who caught every single Bugsnax: _haha yeah_
"stop playing entirely"
Me trying to shiny hunt: *N0*
ok maby
Was bugsnax good
@@cg5380 *Licks fingers* "Yeah mhmmh, great game, lot's of tasty bugs"
Dude, they kinda bug, kinda snack.
@@cg5380 Bugsnax is the spiritual successor to "Juice World"
“Is that REALLY XCOM?”
*shows character missing a 96% to hit attack*
“So it is XCOM!”
flashbacks intensify.
That’s XCOM baby!
God do I love Xcom, one game where your whole team can overwatch, miss a 99% shot and then get wiped by one andromedon grenade. That's just Xcom baby
Gotta admit it's been so long since I played the first that I didn't remember that about the intro
I want to love XCOM (only played the second one), but having played a lot of Fire Emblem before it my strategy is always "load the last save if somebody dies," which is fundamentally antithetical to what XCOM wants to accomplish. But like...I also REALLY don't like having units die, so I end up treating every level like a puzzle instead of a tense combat encounter.
I chose not to play XC2 for the longest time because all I heard was “it takes 40hrs to be good”. Since I wasn’t going to play it, I watched the first 30 min of gameplay on RUclips. I was hooked from the very beginning. I immediately bought the game and started playing. I guess I was a weird one. Loved every second of it.
THIS
You're not the only one
You’re someone with that top tier taste
I stopped XC1 after just a bit because the combat felt really off. Moving through multiple menus to do one weak attack or Monado art took too long to feel smooth
@@korok7523 Yeah I feel you there. The palette arts system of 1 has always felt cumbersome and a bit boring if I am completely honest. I loved XC2 battle system for the variety and just how satisfying it was to get a full burst or a driver combo.
I have to say, despite Xenoblade 2's opening being painfully slow, there was a point in the Ardainian ship, just after you rescue Nia and combat slowly begins to become more complex now that you have more than one other active party member alongside Tora.
That was when it clicked for me. That was the part when I realised this game was going to be really _really_ cool. I adored the setting and the little bit of character interaction I was able to observe in the opening hours and, if nothing else, the soundtrack was wonderful, so I'm really glad I decided to come back to it after taking a break from finishing the first chapter, because it turned out to be among my favourite video games of all time.
So glad!
It took a long time for me. Gormott felt really derivative of Gaur Plains (complete with Rotbart), and I was into it and all but it didn't really hit me as special until I got to Uraya. First off, the stomach is absolutely gorgeous. More importantly, we get that party member and the events of Fonsa Myma happen...THAT's when the game finally kicked into high gear for me. Really took off after that, and never let go. I couldn't put it down.
me: *buys DOOM 2016*
id software: "you bought DOOM? aight, here's DOOM"
I played the demo of the game. It was kinda boring to be honest. Is the game actually good? I just want to know.
@@raycom201 Yes, it is very good. DOOM manages to capture the spirit of the original Doom (running around blasting demons in the face with your shotgun) and adds some fun twists. Highly reccomended if you enjoy a good fast paced FPS.
@@raycom201 It's excellent and the combat is fast-paced without being nauseating. It's only boring if you are playing below hard (normal is for people that aren't familiar with fps, easy is for game journalists but those still fail horribly somehow).
Eternal is the direct sequel in that the starting complexity is much higher from the start, the ancient gods DLC being yet another step above.
@@raycom201 DOOM, and especially its sequel, feels like a fighting game fps. Master chaining together weapon combos and you'll feel like a beast. 2016 made the super shotgun pretty OP, try and avoid sticking to one gun and you'll have a blast. And do not stop moving.
@@raycom201 while the premise of doom 2016 is pretty simple, it's extremely well executed. the combat is filled with so many interesting decisions. like what weapon should i choose for this enemy? should i keep attacking this enemy to get a glory kill or should i retreat? which enemy should i focus on? the combat is so thick with decisions like these that i can't play the game for more than an hour without getting decision fatigue (look it up if you need to).
When you stay because Adam only promised Xenoblade spoilers, but then get hit with a Final Fantasy bomb shell. I'm not crying... it's just raining in here.
@@zegreatpumpkinani9161 Yeah tbf aerith has barely any dialogue outside of midgar
@@zegreatpumpkinani9161 My girlfriend somehow made it this far without knowing Aerith dies. All she has played is FF7R and Aerith is her favorite character. I'm not sure whether to recommend she play the original, considering FF7R2 is probably going to go in a bit of a new direction...
Damm ninja cutting onion
@@Envy_Dragon Make her play it, then tell her she'll gets to see that scene in HD soon
@@zegreatpumpkinani9161 does she have boobs? Yes? Then she's eligible to be a waifu.
I was instantly grabbed by XC2 from the first cutscene, the world concept really hooked me
yeah same for me
It feels like they spent half of the budget on the underwater scenes that you barely ever see again. And the fact that it’s a “cloud sea” never really matters because it acts exactly like a regular sea.
Ditto
@@Edgeperor it matters story-wise
I really became aware of how slow some games are to start when I became a pc gamer and needed to tweak settings and test compatibility/optimization, so I needed the main game play and environments as soon as possible.
So many games take forever to get you into the game play and environments you spent the majority of the game in. And it's a slog often, especially if there are unskippable cut scenes, but mostly when there's slow narrative walking game play.
My favorite game openings were the PS2/PSP God of War Games and Uncharted 2. All of these games start with a quick cinematic intro to establish the scenario and then you go straight into high stakes but simplified game play.
At that point they could slow down after the intro a bit or have more cinematic because you're already invested or not. To me personally it was extremely disappointing when GOW Ps4 had the opposite with a slow push to move foward intro and then slower tutorializing.
That's not to say I think slow and narrative intros are bad. Silent Hill 2 and Bioshock start off without "game play" but are immediately interesting due to the unsettling atmosphere and the intriguing set up.
Or something like Undertale that is a direct subversion of tutorials while also being an actual tutorial. Oh, and of Dark Souls that just basically wrecks you immediately and engages your inner masochist.
Fun fact: Kirby's epic yarn is the only kirby game that teaches you how to walk.
epic
Breath of the Wild with that CLEAN tutorial introduction
Leave cave, do dungeons, go to temple, you're ready.
Shame about the rest of the game
Good thing Monolith Soft only did the open world design. As the tutorials in XC2 are some of the worst I have ever seen.
@@Softlol Yeah, pretty awful. It's a double shame because the tutorials gloss over the importance of Breaking and Fusion Combos even though that's the way you get the vast majority of damage done once you know what you're doing, and it's immensely satisfying. It's why I advise everyone starting the game to watch some Enel videos instead of using the tutorials.
@@ChrisStoneinator huh?
"And introduces things people are familiar with"
*shows a girl*
I think you forgot that this is a game for a few seconds there
Fictional girls, not real ones.
Yakuza 7 just starts with a 40 minute cutscene, but the story is so good that I was already hooked before I had seen any gameplay
Architect you beautiful monster from the video game dimention,that's just a tutorial!!!!11!!!!
"Think you can take me?", "Don't forget me!", "YOUR DONE!"
BEHAIVE
My what?
they patched that out and I'm sad
@@lonestarr1490 Just google it
Me during the first two hours of any JRPG: "STOP TALKING STOP TALKING STOP TALKING STOP TALKING"
This is why it's hard for me to stick with most jRPGs or Visual Novel styled story modes these days. They are just so full of long-winded dialogue...
I know dude, I tried playing pokemon sun and moon like 5 times but I still I never got through the 2 hours of unskippable intro exposition
Any rpg with a bad story at least
Me playing a Trails game: KEEP TALKING KEEP TALKING KEEP TALKING
With Pokémon sun: I've reached the second island AND IT'S STILL GOING!
It's such a weird experience running through the comments with Xenoblade 2 ranking among my favorite games. When I first played the game the only other JRPG I had played was Chrono Trigger. Mind you, at the time I was probably perfectly in the game's demographic in regard to the anime artstyle and other aspects, but regardless, I hadn't even heard much of the first game. I personally blew through the introduction. Having not watched any guides, I made it through argentum with the knowledge that you keep pouch items of various rarity active for buffs and having gotten used to using cancel attacks as well as exploiting attack canceling. By the time I made it through gormott during my second play session I was hooked. My experience with the story hook in a vacuum also wasn't as bad as many people's. I concur, 1 is far more superior for providing character motivations in its intro, but I was enthralled by 2's world and relatively charmed by its characters. They certainly didn't compare to Reyn or Dunban from the first game, but Malos and Nia provide some good personality to the first chapter. Like I said, story aspects probably just clicked with me being primary shounen demographic, but regardless, seeing all the shit the game gets has always been pretty disillusioning to me, having loved the game from when I picked it up.
It’s really quite frustrating. I’ll gladly sing praise about XC1’s intro, but no one rightly talks about how hard so many characters, who were great at the start, fall off in importance at the end of XC1 and it made me feel rather bitter about the end.
And what’s also frustrating is that so many people clearly just don’t experiment in games. They want instant feedback, instant knowledge of what they’re doing, but I think that if people set aside a little time to just take on overworld enemies and test how things work, they’ll get it figured out sooner than they think.
For me, I never was able to get hooked on 2 after 30 hours of gameplay because I had finished playing xenoblade chronicles X before, and my expectations for combat, exploration, etc. were really high, so when I finally got to 2, it felt like a slog, and even a downgrade from X.
I honestly had the exact same experience as you. My only other jrpg experience at the time was pokemon, and the entire reason I got xeno 2 was because it was 50% off and I thought the box art looked pretty. Best random impulse purchase of my life lol.
@Dale Macarena it doesn't (really) matter which one you play first, just go with the game that looks the most fun
Keep It in mind
Most of the fandom hates XC2 just because they are a bunch of soft snowflakes that cover their eyes because of big boobs and because they hate anime(denying that XC1 is anime af too)
Other than that, most of XC2 almost never show any good argument for why they hate the game, other than "anime=bad" "sexualization!😡"
Per Chuggaconroy's commentary, Xenoblade 2's tutorials aren't even properly written at times too; the cherry on top on the struggles you mentioned.
XB2 tutorials didn't seem improper to me, but it's to easy to accidentally skip them.
Xenoblade 2 does an atrocious job teaching the player basic mechanics. I love the battle system now, it's very intricate and addicting. But I had to look up several ~20 minute long tutorials online to understand what I was even doing at the beginning.
The orb-bursting mechanic stands out as a great example. You get ONE fight, 10 hours into the game, with an orb already circling a boss and some text explaining what you're supposed to do, and that's it. You don't get to make the orb appear yourself, and the game doesn't care whether you burst it through a chain attack or not. If the player finishes the fight their own way, they do not know how to create the game state where the orb appears, what to do with it, or what the advantage is. It just blows my mind how badly mechanics are communicated.
Every time I try to pick it up again I have to look up tutorials for half an hour. For some reason I can´t find them in-game after you've seen 'em the first time.
@@ammonha that's cause they're not there. it's incredibly stupid design
@@ketchuprats8378 Lmao, nice going devs.
"XENOBLADE SPOILERS GUYS!!!"
*spoils Final Fantasy 7*
The video game equivalent of "Luke, I am your father." That game is almost 25 years old, and we have no guarantee the Remake will follow the same course. It's hardly a spoiler at this point.
@@cooperbarham2465 i mean i know this because i was spoiled before i did get the hardware to play FF7 soooo this excuse is kinda lame, not every body was here when the game was out
@@cooperbarham2465 I dont really agree. It depends. Comparing FF7s popularity with Star Wars is insane. And it depends on where you live even. For example. Im mexican and FF games here are not popular. Even 7. I mean, people know it exists and that it supposedly good but thats it. I myself played FF7 for the first time ever a year and a half ago and I literally didnt know anything. Not even HER death. For the record, I was born in 2001. So I could not experience FF7 on its launch and I've only had nintendo consoles until 2 or 3 years ago. Also, used to dislike JRPGs so thats why FF7 was uninteresting for me. And as I said, I just recently gave it a chance and loved it. I imagine there are lots of people with situations like mine (Of all the people that I know that play videogames only 3 have played an FF game, let alone FF7, so... ) So a small disclaimer saying Spoilers isnt too much to ask imo.
Saying FF7 spoilers are fine because the game is old is a pretty shitty take considering FF7R is a thing.
@@arielcerecer142 FF used to be huge and the spoilers were common knowledge in gaming....nowadays no one other then old school fans seems to care
Also some of Xenoblade 2’s tutorials activity lie to you. A good portion of them give you incorrect information about important and not easily comprehensible systems like blade combos, pouch items, and gem crafting.
Heck, even in the first fight with Malos they talk about chain attacks, which you don’t even get access to until halfway through chapter 3 which is like 10-15 hours away. It’s also ridiculous that they hide the chain attack mechanic for that long, but they give you a fully customizable party member that can have effects they never tell you about.
It’s crazy how insanely good the Xenoblade 1 tutorials are, heck I’d go as far as saying they’re some of the best in the industry, yet Xenoblade 2’s fumbles hard, and what’s worse unlike the first game you can’t even re-read them.
To make matters worse there are more mechanics than the first game and hidden systems never touched on like the pity blade system always guaranteeing rare blades after a certain amount of core crystals, or how female drivers focus on blade combos more than driver combos and male drivers do the inverse. Neither of these mechanics are ever explained in a tutorial, people had to datamine to find it. It’s crazy.
Xenoblade 2 is actually soooo good, but wow is it hard to recommend, thanks to the awful gameplay of the opening hours.
Also new players don’t get to experience the bliss that is the Ardainian Guard’s voice line frequency since it was patched out. So now the opening hours of the game are even worse.
I agree wholeheartedly especially the last part lmao
It’s really weird how Xenoblade 1 had fantastic introductory hours. There’s a good reason fans avoid spoiling the first chapter’s ending.
Oh my goooooddddd, the opening to the original Xenoblade was SO damn good.
I should replay that game some day. It was great!
The amount of times i skipped through text in tutorials when i was younger was pretty high. Id be like "I''ll work it out myself"..only to get completly stumped on how to do something...this was before the rise of the internet and my house didnt even have a PC.
I feel like someone needs to talk about the amazing way that World 1-1 teaches you how to play the game. It's really underappreciated for such an iconic game, and I've never ever watched forty different videos take ten minutes to explain that jumping over a goomba teaches you how to play.
...no, I think 1-1's beginning has been analyzed to death and is exactly as appreciated as it deserves to be.
@@General12th really? Do you have any examples you can point me to? It sounds really interesting and I've absolutely never seem anything on it.
@@user-sl6gn1ss8p Here's the most recent one I've watched ruclips.net/video/ZH2wGpEZVgE/видео.html
Hahahaha classic!
@@user-sl6gn1ss8p Also, ruclips.net/video/zRGRJRUWafY/видео.html and ruclips.net/video/ZQqQtiVUQY4/видео.html
For some reason, I love slow burns that promotes any pay off that would be 10 times better than I would initially expect.
This makes more sense for games I suppose than other mediums, but in storytelling, it is often the ones with a slow burn, “boring” introduction that are most rewarding by the end. This is because setting, tone, characters etc. all have to be explained and made to care about before bringing in the more interesting bits. In a story like Pet Cemetery, for example, the first almost half of the book has nothing to do with anything supernatural. Instead it reads almost like a family drama, drawing you into the characters lives and making you care about this family. Once the horror actually starts, you as the reader actively don’t want anything bad to happen to these characters, and it is horrifying when the bad things do. If he had started this book with someone burying something in the cemetery and it coming back to life straight away, it would not have been nearly as impactful. I understand your point of view, and like I said I suppose it makes more sense in the context of a game, but truly good story telling often starts out in a way that some would call boring. I don’t find these things boring, as it is all a part of the story being told and I am obsessed with story telling. If it is a story being told well, these “boring” parts won’t feel boring. They might feel dull compared to the climax of the story, but that it literally the point of a story arc. I am honestly getting sick of every story having to start out bombastically to keep peoples attention. I can’t deny that it does work in some instances, but this should in no way be ones determinant in weather to continue a story or not. If you don’t get to the end of a story, you have no right to judge that story. Saying “it didn’t grab me so I shut it off” should be changed to “I didn’t have the attention span or patience to sit through something that wasn’t immediately gratifying”, and if that is you, you probably don’t have the patience or attention span for much of anything worth experiencing. Go watch transformers or something and stop talking about shit you actively choose to not understand. I know this rant turned into something barely related to the contents of this video, but not every story should have a bombastic intro where it shows all of its cards and what it has to offer to “hook” people right away. In fact most shouldn’t. In life and in storytelling you have to put in the work first to receive a big payoff.
I don't think this is a matter of expecting instant gratification, rather a matter of getting the experience you're looking for. I'm more than fine with something taking its time to set up the world and characters, but it needs some type of a hook. I'd argue that the fact that Pet Semetery from your example is a horror is just that. If I had no idea I was reading a horror and had to go through hours of irrelevant family drama I'd probably be pretty bored. Like the Shakespeare example from the video, it gets me interested in the how rather than what, I know something bad is gonna happen the moment I pick up the book
music too
Nobody is saying to show all the cards right away. Just give audiences a reason to be invested. Look at ATLA; it makes the audience start asking questions in their head within the first two minutes. And the whole first episode literally doesn’t have any action scenes. But it’s thoroughly interesting throughout, because it gives audiences a reason to stick around. If I’m on page 28 and the main character is just making their bed for the third time, the only question I’m gonna ask myself is “how the HECK did this get published?”
Weird little side note, but why did you get so angry?? “Go watch transformers or something instead of talking shit about something you actively choose not to understand!” It just gives off bad vibes.
The audience is not forced to give you a chance. If you fail to catch their attention, that’s not their fault for “refusing to understand.” It’s your fault for not making them *want* to understand.
Think of it like a relationship. Nobody is forced to stick around. You gotta convince them that you’re worth their time, or they’re gone. Blaming them for not understanding is just deflecting blame.
I challenge you to provide me with a GOOD introduction that is also boring. Come on, give me one. You can’t, because it’s literally impossible.
A good introduction gives the audience a reason to continue reading. The first thing that comes to mind with “boring introductions,” are ones that don’t intrigue the audience at all… which would by definition be a bad introduction. How can you disagree with that? It’s like saying a seatbelt doesn’t actually need to keep you safe. That’s the entire point, a good seatbelt keeps you safe, and a bad one doesn’t. A good introduction is interesting in some way, and a bad one is completely boring.
@@MigattenoBlakae I don’t think it’s boring. I was saying I often see stories told in the slow burn style I love called boring by others.
Hey guys have you heard about how the the first goomba in world 1-1 teaches you to jump under the blocks? I bet that's the first time you're hearing this!
Actually no. I already heard about it here : ruclips.net/video/ZH2wGpEZVgE/видео.html
You joke, but I think I've actually had to explain it one or two times in person. It was kinda surreal.
Awwww, you didn’t pass the QTE! No happy ending of Citizen Kane for you
8:15 when i scrolled by!
XD
I’ve heard this exactly for FF XIII lol
“The game’s mostly just linear hallways”
“Yeah but after like 20 hours it opens up a bit more”
It gets better. Not good, but better. Like stepping in dog piss instead of dog shit.
Don't worry, we've got over a decade worth of Open Worlds (that had no business being Open Worlds) with nothing but flatlands un terms of content.
In all seriousness, Chrono Trigger is far worse, presenting false choices to the player, seriously? With THAT "art" style I'm already having problems taking that one title seriously...
What I don't get is why my own experience with Xenoblade 2 is so much different. I get that it takes a little bit for the game to really open up. Chain Attack in particular becomes available very late.
But like... I was narratively hooked by Xenoblade 2 from the beginning. And it's not the boobs. I genuinely was interested in these people who apparently were alive 100 years ago. And why this seemingly kind girl was hanging out with these seemingly villainous individuals.
To each their own but you unlock chain attack in chapter 3/10
@@fel_7264 Still like 5 to 10 hours in.
For sure. I feel like people who don’t get hooked by the story or concepts within the first couple of hours might not have been paying enough attention honestly. It sets up an interesting and unique world, and definitely puts some foreshadowing there too. I can’t blame everyone for not paying close attention, but to anyone who does they always seem to love the story through and through
I still can't get around the fact that, if you think about it, it's also a harem game where you collect weapon-girls and every single one of them is a sexy bombshell and, most likely, has a crush on you. It's so... I don't know... Gross?
@@lloydaran ....Harem? There's two love interests... Who are the same person.
What I find fascinating is when games give you a slow intro on purpose. Take The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, Kingdom Hearts 1, and Kingdom Hearts 2. All three have slow openings for roughly the same reason. It's giving a snapshot of the character's life before the game really starts. The little tutorial is done so that you care more about the characters. Kingdom Hearts 2 does this really well. When I first played it all I could think about was when I would play as Sora and go off and fight the Heartless, but even after I got control of Sora Roxas was always in the background being referenced almost constantly. All the frustration about the beginning and the constant referencing paid off amazingly in the end when it's revealed that Roxas is part of Sora and you come to sympathize if not outright empathize with Roxas. Similarly Twilight Princess' and KH1's openings make you care about the characters even if it's just a little bit so that the rest of the story about finding your friends, and making new friends that you feel you should protect, has the necessary emotional weight to carry it through to the end.
I'd say those types of intros are fine when they serve a purpose. This video seems to mostly be pointing the ones that are slow and bad for no reason other than demonstrating basics for people that largely don't need it.
@@throwawayemail6269 I'm not saying that isn't true, but there are games that do have slow starts that are intentional and though they are also used as a way to introduce mechanics to the player they also serve as a narrative reason to keep playing the game once things start going down. That is the point of my comment.
@@dannymerfeld7711 Fair enough. I misread your comment as a "Well actually" comment initially lol. My apologies.
@@throwawayemail6269 It's all good. I'm glad I could fully explain my thoughts on the matter.
My favorite example of this is Utawarerumono: Mask of Deception and Mask of Truth. The story starts out slow, with a lot of slice of life and character interaction as well as introducing new characters. And then, after dozens of hours, towards the end of Mask of Deception shit hits the fan, and it hits HARD. Not to mention the very end of the game. The slow build up makes all that happens in Mask of Truth (both games are basically one game, split in 2 games because of the length) so so much more emotional because you really got to know the characters involved in it, and you care about them, you share their pain and hopes and desires. It all makes Utawarerumono: Mask of Deception/Truth games the best story i know of, not just in games, but the best story, period. And it wouldn't be possible without the slow intro.
If you like that kind of story payout, i can only strongly recommend these games.
Outer Wilds' opening is so good because it's simultaneously engaging *and* a bait and switch. I spent so much time talking to every character on Timber Hearth, mastering the flight controls and zero gravity controls, because I didn't want to die in space. When the time loop is revealed, it's not like the intro feels like a waste of time, but it does make you feel kind of stupid in a good way.
I decided to start it up one day but was a bit tired, felt like playing for half an hour or so. It was like 40 minutes and I realize I haven't saved. I don't know how to save. I was progressing at a fairly slow pace so I decide to rush through and get to a save point, like 20 more minutes pass. I get to the observatory and it's even more time, I'm notoriously just rushing through motions and stressed by now.
So, when the loop revealed happened I was just baffled and felt all my stress had been for nothing and I couldn't appreciate it really, so at least for me it was definitely not "in a good way". This was like a month ago and haven't touched it since xD maybe I'll finish it eventually
@@Icagel0 that’s incredibly unfortunate, the tutorial literally just shows you the tools you absolutely need to learn to use, and then when the statue looks at you, it’s both the start of the actual game and also the even that kicks the story off, after that the game really doesn’t hold your hand in any way, after it’s successfully tutorialized you enough that you just know you’re going to go explore in space. It’s about half an hour long or faster if you want, and then after that there is literally no filler, whatsoever. (Not saying the intro is filler, but it’s the only part of the game that’s beholden to traditional game mechanics like a ‘tutorial’, but luckily it’s also done really well and the village you start in, the characters, art design, and how you learn each of the tools is expertly designed and it’s relaxing and satisfying to practice using them).
You should reconsider your expectations and just play it, I’m sure you know how acclaimed the game is, and I really can’t emphasize how much it truly deserves all of that acclaim.
Doom 2016 intro- i don't know who i am, i don't know where i am. All i know is that i must kill
I am doomguy, I am right where I need to be, and I must kill.
Honestly, that kinda rots.
Damn, it's interesting that you mention Horizon Zero Dawn as having a good introduction. I started the game a few months back and haven't touched it since because the introduction of Aloy as a child was so long and boring. I'm sure it's a good game, I just think it makes a terrible first impression hehe.
There was an editing error, the mario bros section is missing!
I don't think he mentioned it, but he actually mentioned xenoblade 2 in the intro as a way to keep you interested and see why it's relevant. Clever stuff!
The main issue with Xenoblade 2 is... Tutorials.
@@aquamarinerose5405 More like lack of revisiting tutorials. :P
@@aquamarinerose5405 i'd say the main issue is the beginning and end parts of the game the beginning for the reasons stated in the video and the end because it threw away the interesting bits for a "bad man wants to destroy the world stop him" story
@@thesilverblueman Which interesting bits did you feel the game threw away? I definitely think that the ending could've been done better, but I feel like it was handled reasonably well for what it was though. I also think that the type of ending is inevitable given how the introduction panned out, but it certainly could've used more original plot points.
@@dereban5654 mainly the whole war thing they were building up was left on the floor to make way for the new antagonist and many of the first act antagonists motives became a mess when the whole ending the world thing was introduced
I think Horizon Zero Dawn's opening act is a really smart way to tutorialize the player without undermining the protagonist's abilities narratively. By playing the tutorial as the younger, mid-training Aloy, it's able to teach us new things without making us ask questions like "How does a young adult in this setting not already know all of this?" and then when we reach present-day Aloy, both she and the player are fully in sync regarding what we know about the world and what we know how to do. I think more games should approach tutorials like that. Instead of having a supposedly fully trained soldier re-learn the absolute basics of their friggin job as though they haven't been doing it for a living for half a decade already, have the tutorial be part of their actual training prior to starting the job. Really cuts down on the ludonarrative dissonance of "Shouldn't this guy already know how to do this?" present in so many tutorial levels.
TL;DR: Player and player-character should learn new things at the same time whenever possible to avoid conspicuous player/player-character disconnect.
Subbed not only a great essay about the introduction, but also because of the insane breadth of games in the video. The video had a lot of popular games, but a fair amount of indie games. Show you play a whole ton of games to get your ideas.
"A hook"
*Shows fishing*
Hmm I think there's some subliminal message going on here.
Spiderman PS4 has a fantastic intro. One establishing shot telling you where spiderman is in his life and straight into the swinging
Yeah but the segments where you play as Miles or MJ are still complete pace breakers, making replaying the game a lot less enjoyable
@@sirernest546 when i replayed those levels, the're actually super quick if you play risky.
@@prabeshgurung1067 I guess I was unlucky then, every time I tried to rush these passages I was caught and I had to start over lol
I played the game for 1 hour and got bored lol. This just show how subjective this topic really is.
@@Softlol I agree. I'm the type of player that needs games to "take long to get good." If a game gives me everything I want within the first hour, I'll lose interest. It's the reason that I love gacha games and it was one of my favorite features in Xenoblade Chronicles 2. Unlocking abilities is what keeps me interested as well, so I kind of disagree with that part of this video as well. It really is a subjective thing so I don't think there are that many "wrong" ways to make a game like this even if it is a sequel.
Games I fell in love with because of their intro level:
Divinity: Original Sin - In the first 15min you get a bit of combat, environmental puzzles and a quest that requires you to cast "Rain" in order to safe a burning ship, all with pretty much no guidance.
Dragon Age: Origins - All the origin stories are interesting in tie you towards the same plot point. It was so interesting to me that I immediately played all of them before even moving out of Ostagar on my "main" save.
I just imagine you nailing that citizen kane quicktime and suddenly the movie becomes about he being happy he is alive somehow
I really don't like this trend of "Here, have all the powers, then we take them away!". It's oookaayyy at best at first and just gets annoying once I've seen the 10th game doing it.
I rather the game tease abilities and then introduce them, giving me a nice moment of "oooh, thats so cool". Rather than already knowing it from the intro and just waiting to get it back.
The only time this is ever okay is for a sequel where you have to get your powers back and even then it still sucks
Castlevania: Symphony of the Night.
Only time this was okay.
It's better doing like a tutorial where you are taken fast forward into the future play as an experienced character who is really skilled and strong, then you the player get taken back into the past where you experience the beginning of the person's journey. You basically get a taste of what you can become in the future but the game makes it fun as you learn different skills bit by bit .
A second alternative is you play the tutorial as this really strong character ,who you don't actually know is the main antagonist until later on in the game . Its an interesting twist since after the tutorial you play as the actual main character and then you proceed in your own journey.
@@theprocrastinator6813 "A second alternative is you play the tutorial as this really strong character ,who you don't actually know is the main antagonist until later on in the game."
But, if you're going to do this, it's best to make sure that 1) It's not for an excessively long portion of the game, and 2) the antagonist isn't considerably more likeable than the protagonist. Assassin's Creed 3 was _really_ off-putting in this regard.
@@coryzilligen790 true, I really liked Haytham as a character but when I played Connor it didn't feel as exciting.
I feel slow beginnings tend to be more of an issue in JRPG's than in any other genre since most of them directly follow the Hero's Journey template which means a very slow call to action. Xenoblade Chronicles 2 is up there but the most egregious example to me personally has always been Persona 4. The first 6-8 hours of that game are walking and talking with 1 tutorial fight thrown in there.
Holy shit, the first 8 hours of Persona 4 are dreadful and boring as all hell
I have never finished a JRPG...not that I started many. The hero's journey sounds like a good reason, until you consider the many ways to get around the issue.
You can start with a flash forward sequence that teases an pivotal moment later on. You can start with another character more directly involved in the central conflict (for a movie example, the droids from star wars) before meeting your wide eyed farmboy.
SIX HOURS???
Good thing I am nerd that likes to read...
XD
@@maximeteppe7627 oh for sure. A good example is actually Xenoblade Chronicles 1. Instead of starting as the main character Shulk, you start as another major character Dunban in a big "Final" battle against the mechons. While overall I think XBC1 is weaker than XBC2, it does a much better job of gripping you in its opening moments.
Couldn't disagree more about Persona 4, people really don't appreciate proper setup and tonal introductions.
It's like what good old Reggie used to say. "If it's not fun, why bother?"
A game should really make you feel like your body is ready.
Okay maybe he didn't say that last bit but you get my point.
I miss Reggie
I thought you were talking about reggigas and slows start
Metal Gear solid V first mission is amazing. It is cinematic, makes you feel powerless and introduces you to the world in one 45-long staged cinematic scene, it is by no means "bad"
I agree. It was my favorite part of the game. When the game opened up into the big empty desert was when I got bored and tired of it.
I really adored XC2 back then. It was a great experience for me back in 2018, now it’s nostalgic remembering coming home and sitting on the floor as I played it on my TV.
ok imagine a game with a different intro depending on the difficulty of the game
Halo: Combat Evolved is the first thing that comes to mind. A drill sergeant's monologue as he drills new recruits is upped in intensity the higher you raise the difficulty level.
For a few years, I've had thoughts on something like what you're describing. There was always this game in my head where a different prologue would play depending on the difficulty you selected. Selecting "Beginner" gives a prologue that delivers something of an exposition dump from the perspective of the main character's people. Selecting "Intermediate" gives a prologue that shows the military's reaction to the events that kick off the game. Selecting "Expert" gives a prologue from the perspective of the villain. Selecting "Deathwish" gives an In Medias Reis scene where the protagonist is about to fight the final boss, and then the rest of the game is just one giant flashback of him recalling how he got to this point.
Does Quake counts?
@@lugbzurg8987 That sounds amazing.
Metal gear rising has a great hook, rules of nature, then you go from a hurt weenie to a futuristic cyborg
9:15 oh so thats the origin of the "i bet your wondering how i got in this situation" trope
Yeah, Dandelion knew what was up in that intro.
Why didn't Witcher 2 show that Kingkiller trailer in the game?
Shows way more about the game and it's also cool.
Witcher 2 has an amazing opening. Geralt being framed for murder in one of the most cinematic sequences in gaming is bad? Because there is exposition? You buy a fantasy RPG and expect no exposition? What?
Because, as I remember, the specific cinematic trailer you're referring to didn't exist until the Enhanced Edition came around.
I played the enhanced edition and the trailer was the opening. Was it not originally?
@@nenadmilovanovic5271 I completely agree! There are also great cameos for people who have read the book in it!
@@zrixie7695 Nope, they changed that with the Enhanced Edition patch. A lot of the extras, like the animated intro videos about Witchers, were added then, too.
What's the problem with twilight princess?
I guess it has a somewhat long "tutorial", but still it made me care more about the world and helped me immerse in it.
When I played it a second time I realized how far link had come, from a farmer boy he became connected with both realms trying to pacify them and helping both their princesses achieve peace.
All the while getting better and more tools for combat and exploration
it's a bit slow to start compared to the 2d Zeldas especially, I think the trouble is the mindset you go into it. If you go into it expecting immediate sword combat and adventure you'll get impatient, go in it with a relaxed mind and it's lovely.
The game that truly traumatized me was Kingdom Hearts 2, the introduction is pure distilled boredom. Of course, this was before Final Fantasy XIII and the fanboys going "oh but it opens up after twenty hours"
I CAN PLAY THE FULL PAPER MARIO ON N64 IN THAT TIME.
Frankly, when I first played the game, finishing the tutorial was harder than the first dungeon, so not only is it slow, it's also really confusing.
XCOM had the completely opposite effect to me. I've never felt this bad when dying in a game.
The fact that dying isn't a game-over or a restarting point is terrifying.
same 💀 I was so excited to play it but uhhghg ugh
I love the original two games, but somehow kept saving these new ones for later. Recently saw that there are time limits forcing you to play quickly and risk often by design, which is just... and now this thing. Scripted death of all team members except for one that is then scripted to be a badass...? I am so glad I have skipped on those games.
This is great subject for a video. For the most part, I’ve started becoming the guy who, if something in a game doesn’t hook me within the first 10 minutes (minus stupid cutscenes) I will likely bounce. Now, not everything the game has to offer needs to grab me within this time frame but at least one major aspect must. I think modern game developers often over look the importance of first impressions. You can hold back some aspects of a game for later on but you need to give your audience something major to hold onto. So that you can muster through the “training” or “story driven” parts of the game.
But that’s just me.
This really reminded me of my first experience with S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Shadow of Chernobyl. I got it at a garage sale with Far Cry 2, F.E.A.R. , and a bunch of random mmo games that I weren't really interested in but were bundled in all for 20$ which was a steal to me. I had never heard of the stalker franchise and I really was in it for FC2 and fear. Eventually it was the last game I had any interest in playing, so I looked up how it was and what exactly it was. A lot of people said the start was very slow and grueling and kind of just threw you into this hostile and foreign world. It really peaked my interest so I decided to play. I am so glad I did, because the stalker franchise is now my favorite of all time. I've poured thousands of hours into the 3 games and just about every mod I could find. I felt in that game the hostile feel was totally warranted, hell it was required for the world they were making the game in. A dark and gloomy place filled with mutants and unexplainable anomalies that can take your life in an instant. While the beginning did lack a sure sense of direction, at least in comparison to games now where the objective is just a marker on your screen or on your compass which I don't like at all, I thought that lack of direction made the game a lot more fun to experience. It was up to you to decide what to do, maybe go hunting mutants to sell their parts, or maybe you go artifact hunting, bigger risk for a much bigger reward. This video really made me miss those days, to experience that game again for the first time would be great. Don't really know where I'm going with this, tbh I just needed an excuse to gush about the stalker franchise.
Ultrakill intro is straight to the point. You got a short tutorial which you can skip. You got a couple lines of fluff. You got a gun. Then you shoot the shit out of everything that moves.
Shout out to that awesome transition 16:11 good stuff man. awesome video :D
Fallout New Vegas has a solid intro too.
The mission Ghost-town Gunfight is a little microcosm of the main plot.
After picking a side, there's little you HAVE to do to get to the big fight, but by doing optional objectives and convincing people to join you, you can change the situation drastically (getting decent starting armour, a whole load of back-up, some dynamite, and healing equipment).
Also, it's perfectly possible to seek out the "bad guy" and side with them, kinda turning the game on its head.
This teaches players early on that their drive to do optional objectives will be rewarded, and many quests will allow you to pick a side (going so far as allowing you to side with cannibals in one quest), even when you wouldn't expect that.
Players are taught and expected to keep their eyes open for opportunities like these, and to make use of them.
Interestingly, I wouldn't put mgsv in the "gets good eventually" group...but I actually really do enjoy waiting about in a box waiting for guard patterns to line up...
Yeah I actually think of mg5 as a game that starts of really strong and then slowly gets worse
@@dj_koen1265 In particular storywise. Despite the actual story becoming more sparsely distributed through the whole playtime the bullshit nevertheless manages to accumulate with increasing speed, until at some point you just cannot comprehend anymore the clusterfuck of absurdity that it is. Never have I seen anything so dumb deeming itself oh so smart - and I have seen The Last Jedi. It's like the videogame manifestation of the Dunning Kruger effect.
The game is a sandbox and you have all sorts of shovels, pails, and castle moulds. The only problem is there's no sand.
God, I'm honestly surprised you didn't include Genshin Impact. That first 'boss,' if you can even call playing poorly emulated Star Fox where the enemy doesn't fight back a boss, drove me away instantly. Right after getting your glider, the dragon shows up spawning tornados and showing off these crystals on its back, hinting that you would fly up the tornados using the glider and break the crystals. The cutscene set up for something cool, but then the actual fight ends up making the game look really lazy, and I'm not going to spend my time in a game where this kind of crap is considered a boss. It doesn't help that every fight so far has been a pushover because the AI is written about as well as something from the PS3 era (you gave me a sniper when the enemies don't know what range is)
nevermind the hours of just walking around being constantyl interrupted by cutscenes of a story you don't care about and won't care about.
@@Whatismusic123 it's a open world story game?
This video brings a lot of topics we discuss and designs we postpone out of fear on our game. Watching it helps us think we're not being crazy haha
It's weird to have X2 be said to have a bad/slow beginning because I didn't think it had one. It set up everything it needed and what genuinely made me curious about the game was both the story and gameplay, setting up the surface level lore and mythology of the world through a tale Rex tells us at the beginning after introducing us to a world covered in clouds that covers a sea that holds treasures/salvage, as shown through Rex, and shows us a creature that he seemingly lives with a hut while calling him "Gramps" when he speaks to him. Where as gameplay, it makes sense due to, unlike X1, we only start with Rex and we see what kind of mechanics this game will be using unlike its predecessors. Remember, X1 and XX use similar gameplay styles, so using a single character against a relatively weak enemy while instructing you the surface level stuff like how to initiate and charge Arts in battle, even if it isn't the best. I think X2 tried to have players have both instruct and throw you into the action but did a less than stellar job by expecting you to figure shit out on the spot from a poor intro of the mechanics. Especially from those who are beginners or just simply didn't pay that much attention, but that's mostly for the later additions if I'm being honest.
To me, X2 has good beginning with the right pacing.
if anything the game provides a fairly weak hook for incentivizing the player to keep playing. Some players can get through beginning just fine like your self, but other players could easily feel like they are just meandering their way through until they hit certain story beats.
I enjoyed XBC2 from the very beginning! Its interesting seeing all these people dislike the start.
I've had the game for quite a while now and still haven't gotten past the very beginning.
I loved the start, if only ironically. So many iconic line readings and awkward story beats. "Put your hand on my chest"; "DON'T FERGET ME"; and the immortal "Take thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis!"
It's a massive slog and doesn't value the players time AT ALL.
I've had the game for 2 years and am only halfway through the game. The beginning took me forever to finally get through. I would play for like an hour or two a day for a week, then just not play for several months. The last time I played the game this year was in March... I'm finally getting to the good stuff but now I'm just stuck in story cutscenes, every 5 steps I take, 5-10 minutes of cutscenes (I think I'm in Chapter 6 if I remember right). The beginning is too slow and basic imo. I had never really touched JRPGs so the slow start should've been good, but I just wanted to get through the tutorial, the tutorial was abysmal, I've had to look up so many mechanics just because the tutorial didn't explain them well. I feel like it's good for people that have never touched or seen JRPGs before, I had a background knowledge of how they worked at least so it just felt way too slow.
@@thekiss2083 Don't forget "AAAAIYAH!" and "Think you can take me?!"
Also, RIP "Don't forget me!"
I finally got my wife to try out Skyrim. But, the introductory phase (riding that wagon and listening to people talk) just drove her away. By the time she actually gained control of the game, she was so fed up with it that she turned it off and uninstalled it.
I managed to get through the whole tutorial in about hour and half, and then ended that session right after that, it surely felt so exhausting that I didn't have any more desire to actually go explore the world. And that was couple months ago, now I'd have to find the motivation to play it for the second time...
But thats less than 5 min?
@@antongrahn1499 Honestly it can take a while, if you examine everything somewhat carefully (as a new player could) and consider character creation and the cave, maybe getting to the first town as part of the introduction [since it's all a guided sequence I would]. Also it's a pretty tedious sequence where there's both a fake feel of risk that you figure out fairly early on taking you out of the experience and extremely railroad-y.
@@Icagel0 Its a valid experience to have for sure. Your wifes, i mean.
To me personally breath of the wild has one of the best tutorial ever
The great plateau was a fantastic introduction imo
No hand holding and everything was perfectly set up to teach what to expect from the game without constantly holding your hand and forcing you to do dumb stuff in a specific order
Then there is the extreme version of this. "It is better the second time you play it through." (or third, or fourth)
That’s literally my relationship with Xenoblade Chronicles 2. I didn’t think it was a bad game first time (8/10). But the third time I played it, it resulted in it being one of my favorite game of all time lol. This was a span over three years.
Agreed with XC2. Some of the weaker moments from the first playthrough of the early game become a lot fonder in repeat playthroughs now that you know the characters better, and the battle system makes way more sense (or you’ll just be doing NG+) and it’s just a lot smoother!
The Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. disc right there at the beggining!
I mean, you're right but still, cold .
Such a great show
When does it get good?
I feel like this perfectly explains why Mass Effect 3 has such a strong opening, something I always felt but never knew why. Within the first hour you're shooting the shit out of aliens with cool futuristic guns (for new players its just cool straight off the bat, and for returning players it doesn't waste time by hiding the villain/Reapers). Additionally, you get to have paragon/renegade moments from the very start of the game. These both help give a great hook to the game (aliens are destroying Earth, you the ultimate badass get to save the universe) and also set the precedent for the rest of the game (shooting shit with meaningful conversations and important dialogue choices in-between).
3:21 to be fair hollow knights intro was genuinely incredible along with the rest of the game.