You know what else involves waiting for a long time for the slim possibility that you'll capture a moment of excitement at some point? My patreon!!: www.patreon.com/ArchitectofGames Twitter dot com is like fishing except you're doing it with your hands and all the fish are piranhas and the piranhas are movie piranhas not surprisingly chill real life ones twitter.com/Thefearalcarrot
Remember how in supergiant game's Hades, people expressed genuine dissapointment that they had to leave the house and go back on another rune, because they wanted to stay and talk more to all the characters? That is a gameplay/story loop done so well that you actively look forward to the end of some runs, because it means you can go back and pet Cerberus! GOOD BOYS! Nevermind, he talked about it.
I feel like that’s what makes the Yakuza series so great, if you get tired of following the story, you can play at the arcades, or go on a date at the hostess clubs, or get into street fights, or do some gambling, or even go fishing
@Andromeda Fox with Yakuza, the side portion is actually not the side portion. It's not diversion, it's a sublime epiphany. I started playing Yakuza 0 to have fun beating people up, but little did I know that the cabaret club mini-game is actually what I would spend every waking second on.
@@collinbeal I can relate to that. I made it my life's mission to finish Real Estate Royale the same in game night I unlocked it. 20+ hours later and many months, it has been done. I guess it's time to move on to the cabaret club.
Trails of also does that really well, especially Cold Steel. You can fish, you can play cards with your friends. You can play Puyo Puyo... It's just another way to get invested in the game's world.
@@kimballbelliston5925 I mean it's fun personally speaking, and from someone who just started a new file and is avoiding it for the time being due to the energy cost per cast, It's one of the most reliable sources of income earlygame.
I always thought fishing was in so many games becuase it was a key part of human nature/history, I never had thought of the deeper mental effect of it.
I think he’s got a point, but I think you’re also right. Because it is a key part of human nature, it’s often in the place of the “chill loop,” as there is like an almost instinctual reward loop in the brain specifically for fishing.
The point is more about why it’s good as a mini game rather than a main game. Fishing existing as a game at all I think has more to do with your point.
Gwent is also great because the only NPCs who play it are ones that you were already planning to spend time with, like merchants or characters with lengthy dialogue trees. It's hard to say 'no' to taking a small break when you're already in the middle of taking a break
It's a similar thing with Vantage Monsters in Trails of Cold Steel 3 and 4. Your companions play the games. Some important characters too. So that's something that naturally comes along during the conversation.
I completely avoided Gwent on my first play through unless it was essential. Second play through I said I would give it a go and got super addicted. Great mini-game that I enjoyed more than I thought I would.
@@Atlessa They did not, nor did they for Infinifactory. Every game past that sans TIS-100 has one though, and it seems clear that having one for TIS-100 would be inconsistent with its theming.
@@Daniel-yy3ty Spacechem's approach to adding novility to gameplay is that it occasionally lets you beat a level. This is such an infrequent occurence that your brain never gets accustomed to it, and thus habituation never becomes a problem.
Wait, the whole thing about habituation really explains a lot of things in gaming. One that stands out to me is rotational players in the sims. I have a hard time sticking with a family in the sims, and I always have. It just starts to feel draining and stressful after a while. But with rotational gameplay, I can play for a lot longer. I'm switching to a new family every in-game week. So by the time I get used to what I'm doing with that family, the number of sims, their income, etc.... I'm moving on to the next family. And by the time I go through all the households and back to the first one, they're suddenly exciting again.
You’ve just described the need for pacing, similar to how films try to alternate action with dialogue/character self-reflection. Thank you for giving an advice to players and not just game designers
In Minecraft, no matter how big is your golden castle is, behind that castle there is a tiny cove with a shoddy wooden pier where you chill out fishing after a 4 hour grind.
Elden Ring's number one diversion is the fashion. I've spent at least as much time collecting armors and picking out my favorite combinations as I've spent fretting over hard bosses.
I recently did a playthrough of Skyrim where I turned on survival mode and turned off all UI. Between not having access to fast travel and not having quest markers, I had a completely different experience of the game! Found a lot of content and visual detail I'd never run into in years of playing.
I always knew I preferred Skyrim without fast travel, but I never understood why I liked spending so much time walking. That downtime really is essential for the complete experience.
@@ultimaxkom8728 I remember when I first played Skyrim and saw a butterfly. Came close to observe it and noticed the prompt to perform an action. I thought it would let me catch the butterfly, put it in a jar, something like that. Instead I get the notice that two butterfly wings have been added two my inventory. I was horrified...
@@epiphaner In one swift movement, apishly ripping the beautiful, delicate wings from their bug-sockets and stuffing them into whatever sack or pocket on your person, such is the way of the Nordic land's peoples
I feel like the Persona series has also done this in a grand scale with two interacting main gameplay loop that for the most part are complete opposite of each other.
Actually, I think this is the main reason why I like Persona 3 so much more than 4 or 5. 3 constantly switches between the social sim gameplay and dungeon crawling--you work on social links by day, and go into Tartarus at night. Because going into Tartarus doesn't consume the entire day, you're able to take your time climbing it without missing out on social links. The rescue missions give you an incentive to go back to Tartarus after clearing that month's floors, and the full moon bosses act as an incentive to go grind within a dungeon. By contrast, 4 and 5 force you to commit to either dungeon crawling or social sim on any given day, which meant that I would usually get burnt out by trying to clear each dungeon as efficiently as possible, and then I would get burnt out again doing social links while waiting for the next dungeon to become available. Persona 4 has some side quests to get you to revisit dungeons, but I didn't feel much of an incentive to complete them, and there just weren't enough chances to go into Mementos in 5 to actually break up the gameplay.
I actually "beat" the chao garden in SA2 because it was so endearing, and I mean destroying every minigame record and having at least one of every type of chao in every color including the secret ones. It's still my most played game by a few hundred hours but I've never been one for a completionist mindset besides this one time for whatever reason
And he didn't even mention that you could use them as tamagotchi in the VMU! Little young me loved this, but barely spoke english and didn't know what I was doing, but loving it.
I'm surprised he didn't mention Total War. It's the same kind of idea, a tactical and strategic layer that interact with each other and keep the game from getting too repetitive.
Good point. After the climax of ending a battle you get to return to your base where the music is chill, you can freely manage your stuff and prepare for the next fight, and you almost always have some time until the next fight. Also gives you a very natural session ending point which is important because it makes you excited to fire it back up the next day.
Fishing could also be in a lot of Japan-developed games because it's a huge part of the culture as an island nation and is a very common hobby there as well
This trend started out with only being in Japanese games back in the 80s and 90s and then Western devs who grew up with Japanese games continued the trend in their own games too. Other Japanese hobbies like "bug collecting" are still in everything from Animal Crossing to Yakuza but haven't caught on in Western games like fishing has.
Terraria is great at this anti-habituation design. Every small milestone you beat unlocks a new NPC, so you have to go back to where you keep your NPCs and build a new house. You also have to check in on the fishing from time to time if you want to condense your informational accessories, occasionally a boss or raid will ask for your attention and when you're not doing all that, you're mining and exploring. What's great about this is how many of these systems work together, so you never feel like you're doing too much of one thing.
Oh man, thank you for this. I have bipolar II, and the hypomanic side of my symptoms are a lot like ADHD. I tend to get really burnt out on video games (and other stuff!) and not understand WHY it's happening. I think this process happens faster for me, and a lot of times I feel like a "failure" for not being able to get through and finish a game, so I push myself to not get distracted by side stuff... And make the burn out happen even faster. I'm going to try to be kinder to my brain now, and let myself enjoy a broader array of activities without feeling worried if I finish something, to encourage myself to let my brain rest more.
This is why I appreciate Stardew. There's no pressure to finish things by a certain time limit, and you have the chance to take things at your own time.
One fishing mini game I actually had fun with was in Dark Cloud 2 on the PS2. Its generic and slow at first, then when you get the fish on the line, the music picks up, and its a battle to get the fish before the line breaks. The bigger the fish, the faster the line can break. (Like in many fishing games) But one thing that stands out is the the fish are unique and made up for that universe. Plus you can make an aquarium and keep your fish as pets. You can feed and raise them to be stronger and faster. There are also events that happen every so often such as fishing contests and fishing races. None of this is mandatory at all, but you can get some small fun prizes. Also none of this is time consuming at all. What encourages this the most, is that you can fish in any dungeon that has water and been cleared of all enemies. The dungeon music changes from its normal theme to the peaceful enemy free dungeon music. Dark cloud 2 as a whole is an underrated gem, but the fishing in that game is surprisingly fun for fishing.
Damn I appreciate the insight in this video, I've always had a problem with burnout in games (and in life in general). Definitely will try to engage in more side quests or to stop and smell the roses as one would say! Also, I like the mention of novelty in the video as it ties in with neuropsychology. Novelty is an important part of the dopaminergic systems of the brain, so switching between tasks can release dopamine/reset dopamine receptors which would reinforce the gameplay loop.
This was a fantastic video on why diversions in game exist. I confess I'm very guilty of burning myself out on games because I would always decided to hyper focus on one task and inevitably burn myself out. This is why I'm always grateful for games like Xenoblade 3 because whenever I get stuck on a boss there are a ton of things like side quests to help me achieve my goal while also giving me something different to work on.
There are also many, many different ways to adjust your strategy in Xenoblade 3. Which can really save your butt in some fights and also keeps the combat feeling fresh. I don’t think I could ever get bored with the combat in this game.
@@mr_indie_fan Then it is not worth explaining to me. I have never played Stardue Valley, and don't intend too. Because I don't think it is the kind of game for me.
@Mr indie fan Thanks for pointing out that me and many others are not worthy enough to be explained to. It sure is very necessary to point out even when not yet asked.
one of my favorite ingame distraction was the pokemon resort thing in the sun and moon games, you just fed your pokemon beans and upgraded your resort by getting more beans.
I think this might be my favorite video you've made so far. Your explanations are great, and I never expected this topic to be so deep, ubiquitous, and essential to both designing and playing games. This is a masterclass in writing a video essay, baiting (pun maybe intended) me in with the funny premise of fishing minigames and then teaching me something that in hindsight seems like a key pillar of pacing in not just games, but also music, cinema, etc.
I'm glad you made this video, I've often said that side quests and mini games can make or break a video game. As you said, no matter how good a game is, it can become monotonous if there isn't a variety to the flow of the game and/or the actions you take.
The monster hunter series has done a great job with this. Not just fishing, but taking a break from killing monsters to gather herbs, mine, or cook meat offers a change of pace. In world entering a new area for the first time was awesome, but you’d often really notice the scenery doing these tasks.
Fun fact: as a kid I was so afraid of the boss music in Zelda-games that I spent all my time in Ocarina of Time doing the fishing mini game. In real life I have never fished because I read a book explaining what to do if a fishing hook got stuck in your hand and got certain that if I ever did fish that would quite certainly happen, but I do enjoy fishing in games quite a lot and it was only when I played through the 3DS-version of Ocarina of Times like twenty years after the game first came out on Nintendo 64 that I actually played through all the game instead of just fishing all the time instead.
this reminds me of how good the soccer mode in Rayman legends was, it was fun after getting through a tough level with my brother to just punch a ball at each other
I'm playing Super Mario Odyssey (for the 563rd time), and it just struck me that all the collectaton stuff is hidden behind so many different minigames. I guess that this is what makes the gameplay loop so good to dig in with so many different things to do, it's almost as if the game is filled with diversions to keep it always fresh
I honestly enjoy fishing minigames a lot, contrary to most of my friends. It's not that I enjoy the act of fishing in real life (I actually tend to find it a bit cruel), but I just enjoy creature design in games and movies so much. Fishing minigames give me a way to view the more "mundane" creatures in a certain world instead of big creature #120. This is also why I adore a Bestiary or Fishing Journal with a 3D model and a bit of flavor text in them like in the Ruined King game.
If I had to compare this to something in the real world,it’s like stopping to play at an arcade after a several hour drive as a trucker. Sometimes,you just need a diversion before you go insane.
My trick to avoid getting reeled in by free to play games is to take the genre name as a challenge. It's free to play, so I'm refusing to pay even once for it. Theoretically speaking I'd pay some money after getting to the endgame if I'm having a blast. Can't recall it ever happening though…
I feel like the games that aren't just using the word "free" to sucker people into paying even more money than they otherwise would are...pretty few and far between
I think the only one I've actually payed for was triglav, almost more as thanks for being a good game i could play when stuck without flash, java, or admin privileges as a kid. You can beat it without paying anything at all...or even using the deep storage chest/bank at all! (Theres even an achievement for that!)
Another advantage of fishing minigames in particular is that from a development standpoint they are a very cheap way of adding content. Each new fish needs at most one new model and one or two extremely basic animations, or for simpler games a single static image will do. You can add different fish to different locations, offering players incentive to explore, and fishing naturally takes a long time, padding out game time.
I think this can be an issue in games like skyrim or fallout 4 when the reward for leveling up a skill is to not require you to do them anymore, like lockpicking or hacking fully leveled just has you no longer have that distraction from the main gameplay.
@@KRYMauL i think they maybe just painted themselves into a corner making them skills to begin with, maybe they could have been a part of stealth or science respectively then they could just include the perks that add to it without it being something you have to be able to become a master at. mostly extending its functionality and maybe smoothing over low level stuff.
Lockpicking and hacking aren't the same as minigames like fishing. They're not things you do outside the main gameplay loop to distract you from it. They're inside it, at best making it more diverse and interesting, at worst cutting away from what you want to do with meaningless padding. They're not tasks you can choose to do at any particular point; they're obstacles that you have to overcome to continue playing the loop you're in, or just skip past it, leaving content behind. If you want to talk about diversions in Fallout 4 you talk about settlement management and building, and equipment crafting and modifying. Those are outside the main gameplay loop, or a separate part of it you can choose to do when you want to, to the extent you want to.
To me, the only reason I invest in things like lockpicking and hacking is specifically because if I don't, there will be things I cannot get. Safe has an expert lock and I'm only novice level? Too bad. As far as I'm concerned, I never wanted to do the minigame in the first place. This is just a skill point dump so I can get the loot I wanted anyway, and when I finally invest so much I skip the challenge, it feels as though my point commitment was rewarded with free loot.
With xcom/xcom 2 I always tried to stay in the "diversion" strategic layer as much as possible because the battles were truly exhausting. Often my point where I decided to save and break was when a mission came up andbI wasn't ready to deal with the tactical portion optimally. I never really thought about how well those two different gameplay loops worked together, supporting eachother but also providing a break.
Old school MUD Gemstone 3 (AOL timeframe) had a great exp system. All exp goes into a bucket. That bucket drains at a set rate and this is when you actually gain the exp. That bucket can only hold a certain be amount of XP. Any other exp overflows and effectively wasted. This means that after you fill up your bucket, you can little go do anything and the bucket still drains for the next hour with no effective loss in leveling efficiency. Then certain areas of the game have you a small bonus to the drain rate of that XP. Town square, the inns, etc. They become social hubs that people use to sort through gear, sel items, get buffs, etc. Thank you Mr RUclipsr for explaining why I love the GS3 exp mechanic so much.
That is actually a really cool mechanic. Kind of tangential, but I think it's similar in a vague way (or at least on topic to the video): Dungeons & Dragons Online has you bind to taverns so you get resurrected there when you die, and you respawn with minimal hp and no mana. You very slowly regen in town/tavern but regen much faster if you eat something (over a minute or two to full) while in the tavern. I've always liked this even though it's a bit of a time sink because it forces you to stop and think about how/why you died and gives a good chance to repair gear (as dying also damages it) and sort inventory/change your tactics (for spellcasters in particular, taverns are one of the places you can change what spells you have slotted). Unfortunately, while the game does have a decent population it's definitely not as abundantly populous as FFXIV so they don't quite serve the other purpose I'm sure they would of being social hubs- though I've certainly met some people in them. It's also kind of.. heartwarming? melancholic? seeing someone pop into existence having clearly just died and wondering what did them in (or just asking and sharing strats if you know the dungeon, etc :D).
The GS3 thing sounds like a mix between a reverse gacha game energy system, and a survival energy system. You can only do so much every day, and to keep it working you have to never let it empty.
Persona I feel has mastered this. Looking past the split personality the series has you can see in both sides multiple diversion minigames and the game forces you to swap between the 2. P5 has you swapping between puzzles, TRPG, and stealth while in the palace and then outside in your high school life has multiple choices from differing side stories, minigames, and stat boosting. Add in how the Velvet room is a third strategy "breeding" system and I doubt anyone gets bored of that game unless they try to bum rush the JRPG side of the game. It's a game series where the diversions are the main game Edit: gotta add as well that generally to get farther in one aspect of the game you HAVE to interact with he others. Want more side stories and abilities congrats you get to focus on stat building for a minute
Funny because that is actually the reason I haven't touched P3P in years. I just need to do that last part of Dungeon Crawling before the final rush, but I couldn't be bothered to continue it, because I was burned out. It may be better in 5, but in 3, all the dungeon exploring part feels like a forced slog between the actual cool stuff. The fact fusion is absolutely unfun (too grindy...) doesn't help. I loved the story. I loved the interactions. But that wasn't enough to keep me playing.
This helped me understand why the very streamlined RPG experience of Queen's Wish is just so satisfying to me. Explore, talk to people, check on your keep, go beat up a single, contained dungeon, start again. You're never trapped in a slog.
Super interesting analysis that I will definitely take with me in my journey to get in to the games industry. This is definitely one of your best videos in the last year or so.
I think the situation about fishing in games is similar to cmake in c++ projects. More often than not it’s not very good, but people add it to their project because everyone does so, so it becomes a self sustaining loop of people adding fishing and/or cmake to their projects
I dont know what you mean. I didnt use cmake for 10 years. Last year i started using it, and its great. For example it only compiles file that aren't yet compiled - (the main reason why im using it)
@@till8413 dude, that's what makefiles are about, cmake is just some kind of top layer that "automates" makefiles, you can do exactly the same without cmake
@@till8413 to add to the comment above, there are more good build systems, not just cmake, and all of them support incremental builds you’re talking about
Damn this video perfectly describes what I enjoy in games XD Most of my friends usually end up trying to run to the finish and not stop to take it easy. I do the opposite and they usually get a little annoyed at me for taking so long and having to wait for me to catch up cuz I got busy starting at a skybox or something.
Dark Cloud 2 has a fishing minigame break up habituation, but it has a minigame that should be in more games: A golfing minigame. Whenever you beat a dungeon floor, you have the option to play a round of golf on that level, with resources as a reward if you complete it.
Interesting point about Blitzball. From that angle, that might be a factor in why I found Blitzball in X-2 to be way more fun; X-2's combat is mostly real-time and more hectic, and its Blitzball leans even harder into more "passive" sports management - a more distinct diversion.
To me, this is why NieR: Automata is the perfect game. It's got hack-and-slash, it's got side-scroller platforming, it's got top-down arcade shooting, it's got racing, it's got moose riding, it's got boar riding, it's got upgrade management, it's got fishing, it's got exploration, it's got lore, it's got a perfectly spaced story, it's got just about everything I've ever loved in games, all in manageable doses, spread across an expertly designed map, and giving you just enough time between beats to really slow down and appreciate everything as it happens. In the first 72 hours after its release, I spent 60 playing NieR: Automata, and at the end of that marathon, I said, "I want to play that again." I don't play it very much these days because I know I won't have the time I need to get sucked in again, but I'll never get tired of it.
I'm a huge critic of every game I play, even the ones I play the most, constantly nitpicking "oh if I had made this, I would have done this and that", and obsessively mod my games to be more like how I wished they were But Nier Automata is the one game that I've never had a single complaint about. There's nothing I would change even if I could.
MMOs make a big mistake with crafting which is that it's often only really feasible to do at a main town. Not at any town which you might come across during your adventure, only a main town/city. Whether it's because they don't give you convenient access to all of your materials, or they need a special crafting bench, or the recipes need you to buy supplies from vendors/other players. This works in crafting/survival games because not only do you have limited crafting while out in the world, going back to your base is part of the core/main gameplay. In MMOs, going back to main cities, if you're following the story or just questing as it becomes available, is a much more rare occurrence and you're not incentivized to spend your time there crafting, since usually you have a random goal to complete before you get back out there. Fishing and gathering tend to work best as a side activity in MMOs because you can do it anywhere(ish) in the world, at any time, if you feel like it or when you're waiting for something.
The most important thing this taught me is that Doom needs a fishing minigame. I want to pull demon-fish out of the water just to rip them into pieces with my bare hands.
This might explain why I no longer play Final Fantasy XIV anymore. I hyperfocused on the story, completing each expansion in weeks, and then I had nothing else. The next big thing was crafting so I hyperfocused on that. I got at least 3 crafting jobs to 90 before I dropped it. Then I realized I was low on Gil, so I hyperfocused on making Gil. I would spent months doing nothing but crafting/gathering while watching movies on Netflix just to see my Gil count go up before I dropped it. Then I remembered how much I loved fishing. It was the first gathering job I ever got to 90 and decided to go back to it. However by the time I got back to it, it was too late. I was burnt out, so I didn’t spend much time with fishing before dropping that as well. Finally the new patches for Endwalker’s story dropped. I felt like I needed to do it, but ultimately chose not to, because by that point I was completely burnt out from the game. I had no real motivation to get myself caught up on story anymore because “what was the point?” Plus by completing base Endwalker, I felt like I gave my character a good send off to his saga. Eventually my sub ran out and I didn’t even bother renewing it because I didn’t see the point of playing anymore.
18:17 haha I wasn't expecting that. I find it interesting that you showed a clip of CrossCode when talking about getting burnt out by side content and I felt the same way sometimes. I remember seeing someone say the way to play it is to just do the side quests you come across and don't try and be a completionist and that helped me enjoy the game more I think.
Yeah, same. I'd almost always do them as soon as theyre available, and only very rarely save them for later (after trying and failing for 20+ minutes on them). I got better at it on my second playthrough, though.
I haven't played CC specifically, but I'm learnt that if you don't want to get burnt out on a game you should just do what you feel like doing at the moment, whether that's doing sidequests, continuing the story, punching trees to get resources or just faffing around with any random mechanic that catches your fancy.
i find it funny actually because there's a running joke in the game about how there used to be a fishing minigame that was removed, and how there was an entire guild that dedicated themselves to the mechanic about how badly they wanted it back
14:00 Can confirm that in an MMO with lots of checklisted lore items, I always breezed past these to just acquire them... and instantly skip right away, because there was actual gameplay going on that demanded my attention. And of course, there was little point in going back to read/listen to those later because the list was almost always incomplete and missing pieces, so engaging with them at that point sounded like a bad idea anyway. And the only time when you would 100% this list would be when you needed that collection for some other item, so you would, again, just breeze past these chasing a completely different, unconnected goal. What a great, efficient use of development resources, isn't it?
Even more annoying because those pieces are either delierately out of order or randomly given so you can almost never get the chronological story. I get that part of it is to hint that there's bits that you're missing and trying to incentivize you to find them, but for me personally I detest being spoiled on things and would vastly prefer to go from beginning to end. I can sometimes forgive it if I can see the narrative sense in getting certain parts before the beginning, but from what I recall very few games do that. One thing I think FNAF VR: Help Wanted does well in this regard is that those secret tapes are pretty much always gathered in order, IIRC, even if your chance at finding them is "random" (or at least you can easily miss one on your first attempts). So even if you beat all the FNaF1 stuff and don't see a tape, but do find one in FNAF2, it'll still be the first tape every single time. That being said, it's been awhile since I've seen any playthroughs of it so I don't remember if this is actually true.
Totally agree about this being a missing element of Returnal, no part of that game discouraged me from continuing to play more than watching the opening cutscenes for the 25th time and being spit right back out to restart the same loop
I've been playing Splatoon recently, and the fact that, not only are there 3 large game modes, 1 being the story mode, the other 2 being the online battles, but in Splatoon 3, they added Tableturf Battle, which is just a small little side game, but it's honestly really fun to hop into for a bit, and as you play the other gamemodes, you'll often find yourself getting Tableturf cards to upgrade your Tableturf deck, encouraging you to go back and play a bit more.
Good point about Doom 2016, I absolutely loved it but couldn't play for more than an hour at a time. I didn't finish Doom Eternal for a similar reason, there's only so many times you can see the marauder before getting worn out
Oddly enough your comments about crafting in ff14 made me think about what happened to me. In my case I actually really liked the crafting and near the start once I had access to the different cities, I kind of just veered off into the crafting entirely. My fun was essentially finding everything I needed for a craft, which required either extensive searching or a googling it, and the crafting itself had it's own progression with you being able to make better crafting gear as you leveled. However unfortunately for me I got stuck around lvl 55 since I had to complete the ARR story, which wasn't really part of my main thing, and well I had to slog through that. And while the main story was interesting, (the ton of small quests with little rewards after the main quest that were still mandatory weren't) it wasn't my main activity and being locked off from the places I'd need to continue crafting better stuff kind of dropped my interest.
As an avid Final Fantasy 14 fan that's terrified to see my /playtime, I agree about how they treat crafting and crafted gear. Perhaps the worst thing about it is the majority of it either isnt useful for your combat classes, only briefly useful, or is furniture for a house that less than 10% of players can get. Yes there's apartments but decorating a small room is hardly good.
Valhiem is one of the best example, you could spend hour bringing silver to make wolf armour but if you come back you realise you have a bunch of miteral unused and an idea for a cool tavern or a storage area (or something like that) so you end up cooling your self by expanding your base and you will be ready for an next adventure. (valhiem is a good game go play it with your friends if you have some)
Imo this is the same thing that made the persona series so popular. I can't play JRPGs or visual novels for too long at a time but combining the two can keep me occupied for hours
This is one of the main draws of many survival/crafting games. There's exploration and resource gathering, and there's base building. Both of them support each other, and they're fairly different in terms of gameplay. I'm currently replaying Fallout 4 with some mods that expand on the settlements (which makes it come closer to a survival/crafting game), which gives more of a goal to expand on those past basic resource production. The problem with those mainly show up if one part grows stale or starts to only support itself. It's common that once the base gets to a certain part it's just about building more base for the sake of building more base, without providing anything for the outside base gameplay, or even reaching any particular goal within themselves. When the game reaches that point, it's usually time to start thinking about the end game and finish the main quest if there is one. And many of these games just don't have an ending as such, so there's just nothing else to do. But for some games that part of the game is the appeal, and they can be played for long after reaching that part.
The chao garden is the only thing I remember from when I played Sonic Adventures all those years ago. It's probably one of those things where trauma makes the brain black out relevant memories.
That's a common experience as far as I can tell. A decent proportion of the levels and fights in that game suck balls. But nobody remembers that, because the Chao Garden grind incentivized us to replay the good levels in order to get Chao resources. So we all just replayed City Escape 100 times with no regrets. 🙂 That's proof of great diversion design, imo.
@@Drekromancer yeah. I was thinking to myself what games have I actually poured a ton of hours into the "diversions" and i can only think of chao garden from Sonic 2 Adventure battle. It makes me think I just did not enjoy mini games in any other games. Though id argue Chao gareden is an Entirely Self contained game that has its own set of mini-games than a minigame in and of itself.....
Thank you for talking about the Chao Garden :,) It’s my favorite cooldown game in any game I’ve ever played because after a while I was only playing the main game to get stuff for the CG. I hope one day we get another one but have accepted that I likely won’t.
Thanks for the explainer! This makes a lot of sense- one of those things I’m sure I’ll start seeing everywhere now. Keep up the great content! God bless you :)
I find IRL fishing fun and relaxing (although I rarely take the time to do it outside of vacations), but I can't be bothered at all with the mini games. My diversion is just going to play something else, reading a bit or having a walk outside.
One game which I think does diversions pretty well is Astral Chain. The game basically has layers of activities in each episode of the game. There are non-combat quests which are identified with a blue marker and red combat quests in which you are given a rank, based on how well you did in combat. Both of those kinds of missions can be main or side quests, including missions from Neuron itself, challenges and tasks given by your colleagues or random people on the streets and even a few minigames here and there. Aside from those, you also have two sets of collection quests that appear in each episode: adopting cats and taking bathroom breaks. Bathroom breaks don't have any major gameplay implications aside from in-game achievements and a few rewards but the cats you adopt are actually sent to a room you can visit. One of the materials you end up collecting during gameplay is also cat food, which you can feed to the cats you're adopted and which the cats will reward you for by giving you other kinds of materials
So THIS is why I can't stay attached to elden ring despite it being my favorite game. I have been playing with a mod, and every major update, I want to start all over again, making me want to rush to where I was previously without missing anything. This pace means I am not allowed to relax and enjoy the game without feeling like I am missing out by either skipping content, or not reaching new content in time for the next major update. I probably would make it if I just played it instead of complaining, but then I may not actually enjoy it.
I don't understand what you're saying at all. What mod are you playing with? And why do you feel so compelled to replay the game each time there's a patch? Only one of the games patches actually added new content and that was shortly after the games release. The rest have just been balancing patches. For me, I spent 500 hours on my first playthru of Elden Ring, fully exploring every nook and cranny of each region and beating all the dungeons/catacombs before moving on to the next area. After that, each NG+ playthru took less than 100 hours as I didn't feel the need to re explore every area and dungeon and instead used those playthrus to explore new builds and experiment with different weapons and magic setups as well as working towards different endings each time. I never felt rushed and it was a very satisfying way to play for me personally. Now with around 800 hours in the game I'm satisfied with the time I spent playing and will probably wait and revisit the game once there is hopefully a major DLC expansion, at which time I anticipate doing an entire new playthru and putting probably another 500+ hours into the game. Just wanted to share my experience and what worked for me, as your anxiety and issues with the pacing of your playthru seems to be largely self imposed and avoidable. I hope you're able to find a way to play that causes you less stress in the future. Elden Ring is an absolutely singular gaming experience that has so much to offer and one of its biggest strengths to me is how the game allows for so many different playstyles and let's you tailor the experience to what suits you personally.
@@joshmay2944 the patch I was talking about was for the mod, and the mod is called "Elden Ring Reloaded" it is the first overhaul mod for Elden ring, and yes I have attention issues (not anxiety issues though). My situation doesn't reflect most peoples' experience, and my experience has very little to do with the quality of the game aside from the fact that the game is just absolutely huge.
Honestly habitation can apply to a lot of things in life. People in general start feeling super burnt out in general by doing the same shit over and over again. From our relationships with other people, our jobs or hobbies. Eventually most people just kinda get tired of the cycle they find themselves in.
I've always hated the "keep the bar over X image" fishing minigames because it made me think harder than the actual game. Fishing games that are just hitting a button once or multiple times at a specific time were easier and fit into what fishing in most games was supposed to be.
I wonder how habituation factors into things like Flow states. When you mentioned the Dota point, I thought back on some times where I've been able to play a days worth of rounds without getting tired when I was younger. Nowadays, I can maybe make it to three if I stretch it, but it seems as if habituation is something that becomes more prominent as you age. At least, that's my assumption from my singular experience.
6:36 Is anyone else bothered by the fact that it COULD'VE been a perfect figure-8 loop but it ISN'T and my disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined?
Entirely spot on. We need mini games within our games, so that we can take a break from the stress of gaming by doing a light spot of gaming within the game. We need to go one step further for true enlightenment though. More seriously, rather than calling fishing mini games a distraction however, I'd be tempted to call them an _anti-distraction_ . Distractions normally drag your attention somewhere specific and make you focus on that. Fishing mini games, as done in Zelda for example, purposefully send your attention nowhere at all and lets your focus drift. That makes them relaxing and, more importantly, reflective. It gives you a pause to recollect what happened in the story, to admire the aesthetic style of the game, to be lullabied by the music. These are all things which we often miss in the tension of gameplay, fishing lets us experience them from our recent memories. Same thing with the safe areas you mentioned, but very different from some of the high-octane mini-games that were brought up in the video.
WAIT, YOU CAN FISH IN "A Short Hike"????????????????????????????? I need to play that game again. There's clearly something I need to do. Btw, great video. I love the way you deconstruct some of the weirdest tropes or abstract video game concepts the industry has. Keep it up.
Downtime is very important. It's part of the reason why I like Fallout 3/new vegas so much and not outer worlds. The inbetween walking bits let you calm down for 5-10 minutes. Little mini hiking moments.
I find it best when you can mess around with the ai or the structure of the game. vats headshots and dumb obliterations of enemies with hammers and such, and then playing around with all of that by having strategic save points.
Morrowind having limited fast travel mechanics and lack of quest markers honestly makes the game so much more fun. You find so many interesting things on your travels when your eyes aren't glued to a compass marker.
I think this video helps me understand why I love the gameplay loop so much in games like Cult of the Lamb, Moonlighter, or the Atelier series. Lots of games break things up with diversions, but I really love it when those systems are elaborated out so they're not just diversions anymore, but the entire other half of the game.
Okay, I need you to really look at what you did at 6:37. Then realize just how satisfying it would have been to have the dot moving in a figure 8 pattern! Shame on you… 🤣
I was going to comment that, but decided to check the comments first for if someone else already did... and hey, yeah. I can only imagine this was done on purpose, as an insult. Shame on you, Adam Millard - The Architect of Improperly Looping Circles!
You know what else involves waiting for a long time for the slim possibility that you'll capture a moment of excitement at some point? My patreon!!: www.patreon.com/ArchitectofGames
Twitter dot com is like fishing except you're doing it with your hands and all the fish are piranhas and the piranhas are movie piranhas not surprisingly chill real life ones twitter.com/Thefearalcarrot
I don't see the need to cuss in the title myself.
So this applies to some of the hacking minigames that everyone complains about as well?
Happy 100th video!
@@harshmudhar96 what the h e double hockey sticks are you talking about
Wait, doesn't BotW not have a fishing minigame? Sure you can repurpose the spear and throw it, but that's just using an attack.
So... You're saying that DOOM would be better with a fishing minigame?
...I'd be down for that.
Kill these demon/zombified fishes by taking them out of the only environment they can breathe in? hell yeah!
The platforming and puzzles in Eternal are basically just that.
So, the Doomguy and Isabelle thing should be canon in the next one?
So Isabella + Doom guy release would've been actually good?
listen to doom crossing eternal horizions its a song about isabelle and doom guy fishing
Remember how in supergiant game's Hades, people expressed genuine dissapointment that they had to leave the house and go back on another rune, because they wanted to stay and talk more to all the characters? That is a gameplay/story loop done so well that you actively look forward to the end of some runs, because it means you can go back and pet Cerberus! GOOD BOYS!
Nevermind, he talked about it.
I feel like that’s what makes the Yakuza series so great, if you get tired of following the story, you can play at the arcades, or go on a date at the hostess clubs, or get into street fights, or do some gambling, or even go fishing
Having the ability to slow things down and fuck around is so crucial
@Andromeda Fox yes but you re still playing the same game
@Andromeda Fox with Yakuza, the side portion is actually not the side portion. It's not diversion, it's a sublime epiphany. I started playing Yakuza 0 to have fun beating people up, but little did I know that the cabaret club mini-game is actually what I would spend every waking second on.
@@collinbeal
I can relate to that. I made it my life's mission to finish Real Estate Royale the same in game night I unlocked it. 20+ hours later and many months, it has been done. I guess it's time to move on to the cabaret club.
Trails of also does that really well, especially Cold Steel.
You can fish, you can play cards with your friends. You can play Puyo Puyo...
It's just another way to get invested in the game's world.
Excuse me but the Fishing in Stardew Valley isn’t a mini-game.
It’s life
So that's why it isn't fun
Same goes for fishing in Sea of Thieves
@@kimballbelliston5925 I mean it's fun personally speaking, and from someone who just started a new file and is avoiding it for the time being due to the energy cost per cast, It's one of the most reliable sources of income earlygame.
@@exyzt9877 It’s easily the best source of meat in spore tribal stage, too.
@@kimballbelliston5925 It's only not fun if you're not good at it.
I always thought fishing was in so many games becuase it was a key part of human nature/history, I never had thought of the deeper mental effect of it.
I think he’s got a point, but I think you’re also right. Because it is a key part of human nature, it’s often in the place of the “chill loop,” as there is like an almost instinctual reward loop in the brain specifically for fishing.
With this video the fishing lvl in ultrakill is confirmed. I hope there is a hardcore reaction time twist to it with a steep learning curve
The point is more about why it’s good as a mini game rather than a main game. Fishing existing as a game at all I think has more to do with your point.
It's a god way to make a world seems more alive. Each new regions having their own kind of fish is always a great touch.
Pooping is also a part of human nature/history… there are reasons certain things become game mechanics and others don’t.
The Gwent game is a great example too, it wouldn't be as much fun without the Witcher parts in between. Even doing some quests to get better cards.
Gwent is also great because the only NPCs who play it are ones that you were already planning to spend time with, like merchants or characters with lengthy dialogue trees. It's hard to say 'no' to taking a small break when you're already in the middle of taking a break
Though basically no one actually want to do it because
Why does this medieval fantasy game have such a hard on for yugioh
Or something to that effect
It's a similar thing with Vantage Monsters in Trails of Cold Steel 3 and 4. Your companions play the games. Some important characters too. So that's something that naturally comes along during the conversation.
Th greatest thing about Gwent is how you don't have to play it.
I completely avoided Gwent on my first play through unless it was essential. Second play through I said I would give it a go and got super addicted. Great mini-game that I enjoyed more than I thought I would.
I now understand why almost every Zachtronics game has a solitare minigame, besides "just for the fun of it."
Did they ever patch one into Spacechem?
@@Atlessa They did not, nor did they for Infinifactory. Every game past that sans TIS-100 has one though, and it seems clear that having one for TIS-100 would be inconsistent with its theming.
@@Atlessa As if a minigame could do anything to recover your mind from Spacechem 😄
@@Daniel-yy3ty Spacechem's approach to adding novility to gameplay is that it occasionally lets you beat a level. This is such an infrequent occurence that your brain never gets accustomed to it, and thus habituation never becomes a problem.
@@delta3244 stop calling out my poor brain for failing to solve those devilish mindbreakers XD
Wait, the whole thing about habituation really explains a lot of things in gaming. One that stands out to me is rotational players in the sims. I have a hard time sticking with a family in the sims, and I always have. It just starts to feel draining and stressful after a while. But with rotational gameplay, I can play for a lot longer. I'm switching to a new family every in-game week. So by the time I get used to what I'm doing with that family, the number of sims, their income, etc.... I'm moving on to the next family. And by the time I go through all the households and back to the first one, they're suddenly exciting again.
That's how men used to live. Just go out for some smokes and start a new family.
@@LLlap can confirm.
You’ve just described the need for pacing, similar to how films try to alternate action with dialogue/character self-reflection. Thank you for giving an advice to players and not just game designers
In Minecraft, no matter how big is your golden castle is, behind that castle there is a tiny cove with a shoddy wooden pier where you chill out fishing after a 4 hour grind.
Elden Ring's number one diversion is the fashion. I've spent at least as much time collecting armors and picking out my favorite combinations as I've spent fretting over hard bosses.
queen shit 💅
Lmao if thats the case. If you have ever wanted to try out an MMO, play Final Fantasy 14 for sure. Fashion is a huge distraction in that game!
@@Maophantom Or Guild Wars 2, which is better and has no subscription fee.
True, I've spent more time thinking about stuff like "do these gauntlets fit this look" than what I've though about boss strategies
I get all the skins and collectable and then never use these cause idgf.
RUclips also loves the fishing minigame. Usually by using deceiving titles and thumbnails.
I think in this case, it's called phishing.
I recently did a playthrough of Skyrim where I turned on survival mode and turned off all UI. Between not having access to fast travel and not having quest markers, I had a completely different experience of the game! Found a lot of content and visual detail I'd never run into in years of playing.
Welcome to the true gaming experience! This is why Morrowind was and still is so loved. Glad you rediscovered Skyrim for yourself again!
I always knew I preferred Skyrim without fast travel, but I never understood why I liked spending so much time walking. That downtime really is essential for the complete experience.
Don't make fun of fishing, it took years for bethesda to add it to skyrim!
Looks like it's time to buy skyrim again
I prefer bug catching in Skyrim.
Wait what? Skyrim has fishing now??
...time to play it again then, i guess.
@@ultimaxkom8728 I remember when I first played Skyrim and saw a butterfly.
Came close to observe it and noticed the prompt to perform an action.
I thought it would let me catch the butterfly, put it in a jar, something like that.
Instead I get the notice that two butterfly wings have been added two my inventory.
I was horrified...
@@epiphaner In one swift movement, apishly ripping the beautiful, delicate wings from their bug-sockets and stuffing them into whatever sack or pocket on your person, such is the way of the Nordic land's peoples
When you said "Sonic Adventure 2" I literally got chills. The Chao garden was my life as a kid
I feel like the Persona series has also done this in a grand scale with two interacting main gameplay loop that for the most part are complete opposite of each other.
Actually, I think this is the main reason why I like Persona 3 so much more than 4 or 5. 3 constantly switches between the social sim gameplay and dungeon crawling--you work on social links by day, and go into Tartarus at night. Because going into Tartarus doesn't consume the entire day, you're able to take your time climbing it without missing out on social links. The rescue missions give you an incentive to go back to Tartarus after clearing that month's floors, and the full moon bosses act as an incentive to go grind within a dungeon. By contrast, 4 and 5 force you to commit to either dungeon crawling or social sim on any given day, which meant that I would usually get burnt out by trying to clear each dungeon as efficiently as possible, and then I would get burnt out again doing social links while waiting for the next dungeon to become available. Persona 4 has some side quests to get you to revisit dungeons, but I didn't feel much of an incentive to complete them, and there just weren't enough chances to go into Mementos in 5 to actually break up the gameplay.
I actually "beat" the chao garden in SA2 because it was so endearing, and I mean destroying every minigame record and having at least one of every type of chao in every color including the secret ones. It's still my most played game by a few hundred hours but I've never been one for a completionist mindset besides this one time for whatever reason
I also loved getting the secret chaos
And he didn't even mention that you could use them as tamagotchi in the VMU!
Little young me loved this, but barely spoke english and didn't know what I was doing, but loving it.
The Chao Garden was better than half of SA2's campaign, change my mind
This is why I think Xcom is so brilliant. I never become habituated because of the back and forth transition between the two genres
I'm surprised he didn't mention Total War. It's the same kind of idea, a tactical and strategic layer that interact with each other and keep the game from getting too repetitive.
Good point. After the climax of ending a battle you get to return to your base where the music is chill, you can freely manage your stuff and prepare for the next fight, and you almost always have some time until the next fight. Also gives you a very natural session ending point which is important because it makes you excited to fire it back up the next day.
Fishing could also be in a lot of Japan-developed games because it's a huge part of the culture as an island nation and is a very common hobby there as well
I was wondering that too.
A LOT of Japanese games have fishing and no clue why
This trend started out with only being in Japanese games back in the 80s and 90s and then Western devs who grew up with Japanese games continued the trend in their own games too.
Other Japanese hobbies like "bug collecting" are still in everything from Animal Crossing to Yakuza but haven't caught on in Western games like fishing has.
Terraria is great at this anti-habituation design. Every small milestone you beat unlocks a new NPC, so you have to go back to where you keep your NPCs and build a new house. You also have to check in on the fishing from time to time if you want to condense your informational accessories, occasionally a boss or raid will ask for your attention and when you're not doing all that, you're mining and exploring. What's great about this is how many of these systems work together, so you never feel like you're doing too much of one thing.
This would definitely explain why some of the long term games I’ve played recently didn’t stick too long for me
Explains why I love opening Pokémon Camp and Picnic, there's something so fun about seeing your Pokémon interact with you and each other
Oh man, thank you for this. I have bipolar II, and the hypomanic side of my symptoms are a lot like ADHD. I tend to get really burnt out on video games (and other stuff!) and not understand WHY it's happening. I think this process happens faster for me, and a lot of times I feel like a "failure" for not being able to get through and finish a game, so I push myself to not get distracted by side stuff... And make the burn out happen even faster. I'm going to try to be kinder to my brain now, and let myself enjoy a broader array of activities without feeling worried if I finish something, to encourage myself to let my brain rest more.
i feel you man.
This is why I appreciate Stardew. There's no pressure to finish things by a certain time limit, and you have the chance to take things at your own time.
One fishing mini game I actually had fun with was in Dark Cloud 2 on the PS2.
Its generic and slow at first, then when you get the fish on the line, the music picks up, and its a battle to get the fish before the line breaks. The bigger the fish, the faster the line can break.
(Like in many fishing games)
But one thing that stands out is the the fish are unique and made up for that universe. Plus you can make an aquarium and keep your fish as pets. You can feed and raise them to be stronger and faster.
There are also events that happen every so often such as fishing contests and fishing races. None of this is mandatory at all, but you can get some small fun prizes. Also none of this is time consuming at all.
What encourages this the most, is that you can fish in any dungeon that has water and been cleared of all enemies. The dungeon music changes from its normal theme to the peaceful enemy free dungeon music.
Dark cloud 2 as a whole is an underrated gem, but the fishing in that game is surprisingly fun for fishing.
Damn I appreciate the insight in this video, I've always had a problem with burnout in games (and in life in general). Definitely will try to engage in more side quests or to stop and smell the roses as one would say!
Also, I like the mention of novelty in the video as it ties in with neuropsychology. Novelty is an important part of the dopaminergic systems of the brain, so switching between tasks can release dopamine/reset dopamine receptors which would reinforce the gameplay loop.
This was a fantastic video on why diversions in game exist. I confess I'm very guilty of burning myself out on games because I would always decided to hyper focus on one task and inevitably burn myself out. This is why I'm always grateful for games like Xenoblade 3 because whenever I get stuck on a boss there are a ton of things like side quests to help me achieve my goal while also giving me something different to work on.
There are also many, many different ways to adjust your strategy in Xenoblade 3.
Which can really save your butt in some fights and also keeps the combat feeling fresh.
I don’t think I could ever get bored with the combat in this game.
the music cards in the top right are so underrated
thank you adam for making these great videos and putting so much effort into them
Gaming's two unspoken rules that only game Devs who know follow:
1: dopefish lives
2: fishing mini game
@@mr_indie_fan Then it is not worth explaining to me.
I have never played Stardue Valley, and don't intend too. Because I don't think it is the kind of game for me.
@Mr indie fan Thanks for pointing out that me and many others are not worthy enough to be explained to. It sure is very necessary to point out even when not yet asked.
OK but hear me out: what if we were fishing _for_ dopefish?
@@stevethepocket i was thinking the same thing
one of my favorite ingame distraction was the pokemon resort thing in the sun and moon games, you just fed your pokemon beans and upgraded your resort by getting more beans.
Few people finished Doom 2016 because it didn't have a fishing mini game, confirmed.
Jk, jk. Loving the vid. Excellent work as always.
At least doom eternal had dopefish!
tell me you wouldn't play a minigame all about jamming your hand into hell lava and pulling out demon fish that are also guns. enough said.
@@ArchitectofGames True dat
@@randompersonyouveneverhear3996 true that
@@ArchitectofGames true dat
I think this might be my favorite video you've made so far. Your explanations are great, and I never expected this topic to be so deep, ubiquitous, and essential to both designing and playing games. This is a masterclass in writing a video essay, baiting (pun maybe intended) me in with the funny premise of fishing minigames and then teaching me something that in hindsight seems like a key pillar of pacing in not just games, but also music, cinema, etc.
I'm glad you made this video, I've often said that side quests and mini games can make or break a video game. As you said, no matter how good a game is, it can become monotonous if there isn't a variety to the flow of the game and/or the actions you take.
The monster hunter series has done a great job with this. Not just fishing, but taking a break from killing monsters to gather herbs, mine, or cook meat offers a change of pace. In world entering a new area for the first time was awesome, but you’d often really notice the scenery doing these tasks.
Fun fact: as a kid I was so afraid of the boss music in Zelda-games that I spent all my time in Ocarina of Time doing the fishing mini game. In real life I have never fished because I read a book explaining what to do if a fishing hook got stuck in your hand and got certain that if I ever did fish that would quite certainly happen, but I do enjoy fishing in games quite a lot and it was only when I played through the 3DS-version of Ocarina of Times like twenty years after the game first came out on Nintendo 64 that I actually played through all the game instead of just fishing all the time instead.
this reminds me of how good the soccer mode in Rayman legends was, it was fun after getting through a tough level with my brother to just punch a ball at each other
I'm playing Super Mario Odyssey (for the 563rd time), and it just struck me that all the collectaton stuff is hidden behind so many different minigames. I guess that this is what makes the gameplay loop so good to dig in with so many different things to do, it's almost as if the game is filled with diversions to keep it always fresh
I honestly enjoy fishing minigames a lot, contrary to most of my friends. It's not that I enjoy the act of fishing in real life (I actually tend to find it a bit cruel), but I just enjoy creature design in games and movies so much.
Fishing minigames give me a way to view the more "mundane" creatures in a certain world instead of big creature #120. This is also why I adore a Bestiary or Fishing Journal with a 3D model and a bit of flavor text in them like in the Ruined King game.
If I had to compare this to something in the real world,it’s like stopping to play at an arcade after a several hour drive as a trucker. Sometimes,you just need a diversion before you go insane.
My trick to avoid getting reeled in by free to play games is to take the genre name as a challenge. It's free to play, so I'm refusing to pay even once for it. Theoretically speaking I'd pay some money after getting to the endgame if I'm having a blast. Can't recall it ever happening though…
I feel like the games that aren't just using the word "free" to sucker people into paying even more money than they otherwise would are...pretty few and far between
I think the only one I've actually payed for was triglav, almost more as thanks for being a good game i could play when stuck without flash, java, or admin privileges as a kid. You can beat it without paying anything at all...or even using the deep storage chest/bank at all! (Theres even an achievement for that!)
My trick to avoid getting reeled in by free to play games is to not play them.
Another advantage of fishing minigames in particular is that from a development standpoint they are a very cheap way of adding content. Each new fish needs at most one new model and one or two extremely basic animations, or for simpler games a single static image will do. You can add different fish to different locations, offering players incentive to explore, and fishing naturally takes a long time, padding out game time.
I think this can be an issue in games like skyrim or fallout 4 when the reward for leveling up a skill is to not require you to do them anymore, like lockpicking or hacking fully leveled just has you no longer have that distraction from the main gameplay.
I mean that makes sense because the alternative is to make it trivial. If anything the best one seems to be fishing mini games.
@@KRYMauL i think they maybe just painted themselves into a corner making them skills to begin with, maybe they could have been a part of stealth or science respectively then they could just include the perks that add to it without it being something you have to be able to become a master at.
mostly extending its functionality and maybe smoothing over low level stuff.
Lockpicking and hacking aren't the same as minigames like fishing. They're not things you do outside the main gameplay loop to distract you from it. They're inside it, at best making it more diverse and interesting, at worst cutting away from what you want to do with meaningless padding. They're not tasks you can choose to do at any particular point; they're obstacles that you have to overcome to continue playing the loop you're in, or just skip past it, leaving content behind.
If you want to talk about diversions in Fallout 4 you talk about settlement management and building, and equipment crafting and modifying. Those are outside the main gameplay loop, or a separate part of it you can choose to do when you want to, to the extent you want to.
@@WadWizard Personally, I think adding skip as an option is good upgrade path.
To me, the only reason I invest in things like lockpicking and hacking is specifically because if I don't, there will be things I cannot get.
Safe has an expert lock and I'm only novice level? Too bad.
As far as I'm concerned, I never wanted to do the minigame in the first place. This is just a skill point dump so I can get the loot I wanted anyway, and when I finally invest so much I skip the challenge, it feels as though my point commitment was rewarded with free loot.
With xcom/xcom 2 I always tried to stay in the "diversion" strategic layer as much as possible because the battles were truly exhausting. Often my point where I decided to save and break was when a mission came up andbI wasn't ready to deal with the tactical portion optimally. I never really thought about how well those two different gameplay loops worked together, supporting eachother but also providing a break.
Old school MUD Gemstone 3 (AOL timeframe) had a great exp system. All exp goes into a bucket. That bucket drains at a set rate and this is when you actually gain the exp. That bucket can only hold a certain be amount of XP. Any other exp overflows and effectively wasted.
This means that after you fill up your bucket, you can little go do anything and the bucket still drains for the next hour with no effective loss in leveling efficiency.
Then certain areas of the game have you a small bonus to the drain rate of that XP. Town square, the inns, etc. They become social hubs that people use to sort through gear, sel items, get buffs, etc.
Thank you Mr RUclipsr for explaining why I love the GS3 exp mechanic so much.
That is actually a really cool mechanic.
Kind of tangential, but I think it's similar in a vague way (or at least on topic to the video): Dungeons & Dragons Online has you bind to taverns so you get resurrected there when you die, and you respawn with minimal hp and no mana. You very slowly regen in town/tavern but regen much faster if you eat something (over a minute or two to full) while in the tavern. I've always liked this even though it's a bit of a time sink because it forces you to stop and think about how/why you died and gives a good chance to repair gear (as dying also damages it) and sort inventory/change your tactics (for spellcasters in particular, taverns are one of the places you can change what spells you have slotted). Unfortunately, while the game does have a decent population it's definitely not as abundantly populous as FFXIV so they don't quite serve the other purpose I'm sure they would of being social hubs- though I've certainly met some people in them. It's also kind of.. heartwarming? melancholic? seeing someone pop into existence having clearly just died and wondering what did them in (or just asking and sharing strats if you know the dungeon, etc :D).
The GS3 thing sounds like a mix between a reverse gacha game energy system, and a survival energy system. You can only do so much every day, and to keep it working you have to never let it empty.
Fishing as a minigame just hits different from fishing as a main game mechanic
Persona I feel has mastered this. Looking past the split personality the series has you can see in both sides multiple diversion minigames and the game forces you to swap between the 2. P5 has you swapping between puzzles, TRPG, and stealth while in the palace and then outside in your high school life has multiple choices from differing side stories, minigames, and stat boosting. Add in how the Velvet room is a third strategy "breeding" system and I doubt anyone gets bored of that game unless they try to bum rush the JRPG side of the game. It's a game series where the diversions are the main game
Edit: gotta add as well that generally to get farther in one aspect of the game you HAVE to interact with he others. Want more side stories and abilities congrats you get to focus on stat building for a minute
Funny because that is actually the reason I haven't touched P3P in years. I just need to do that last part of Dungeon Crawling before the final rush, but I couldn't be bothered to continue it, because I was burned out.
It may be better in 5, but in 3, all the dungeon exploring part feels like a forced slog between the actual cool stuff. The fact fusion is absolutely unfun (too grindy...) doesn't help. I loved the story. I loved the interactions. But that wasn't enough to keep me playing.
Fun fact: in spanish, the word for 'fun' is "diversión", pretty much the same word that 'diversion'.
The Chao garden was me and my brother's focus when playing the game, so nice to see it's not forgotten
This helped me understand why the very streamlined RPG experience of Queen's Wish is just so satisfying to me. Explore, talk to people, check on your keep, go beat up a single, contained dungeon, start again. You're never trapped in a slog.
Super interesting analysis that I will definitely take with me in my journey to get in to the games industry. This is definitely one of your best videos in the last year or so.
cringe
I think the situation about fishing in games is similar to cmake in c++ projects.
More often than not it’s not very good, but people add it to their project because everyone does so, so it becomes a self sustaining loop of people adding fishing and/or cmake to their projects
What the heck is a cmake
@@popopop984 a build system used a lot in c++ projects
I dont know what you mean.
I didnt use cmake for 10 years.
Last year i started using it, and its great. For example it only compiles file that aren't yet compiled - (the main reason why im using it)
@@till8413 dude, that's what makefiles are about, cmake is just some kind of top layer that "automates" makefiles, you can do exactly the same without cmake
@@till8413 to add to the comment above, there are more good build systems, not just cmake, and all of them support incremental builds you’re talking about
Damn this video perfectly describes what I enjoy in games XD
Most of my friends usually end up trying to run to the finish and not stop to take it easy.
I do the opposite and they usually get a little annoyed at me for taking so long and having to wait for me to catch up cuz I got busy starting at a skybox or something.
Dark Cloud 2 has a fishing minigame break up habituation, but it has a minigame that should be in more games: A golfing minigame.
Whenever you beat a dungeon floor, you have the option to play a round of golf on that level, with resources as a reward if you complete it.
Yes !! Spheda was so fun
Interesting point about Blitzball. From that angle, that might be a factor in why I found Blitzball in X-2 to be way more fun; X-2's combat is mostly real-time and more hectic, and its Blitzball leans even harder into more "passive" sports management - a more distinct diversion.
To me, this is why NieR: Automata is the perfect game. It's got hack-and-slash, it's got side-scroller platforming, it's got top-down arcade shooting, it's got racing, it's got moose riding, it's got boar riding, it's got upgrade management, it's got fishing, it's got exploration, it's got lore, it's got a perfectly spaced story, it's got just about everything I've ever loved in games, all in manageable doses, spread across an expertly designed map, and giving you just enough time between beats to really slow down and appreciate everything as it happens. In the first 72 hours after its release, I spent 60 playing NieR: Automata, and at the end of that marathon, I said, "I want to play that again." I don't play it very much these days because I know I won't have the time I need to get sucked in again, but I'll never get tired of it.
I'm a huge critic of every game I play, even the ones I play the most, constantly nitpicking "oh if I had made this, I would have done this and that", and obsessively mod my games to be more like how I wished they were
But Nier Automata is the one game that I've never had a single complaint about. There's nothing I would change even if I could.
i like fishing in games where you can see the fish you caught, like an aquarium that you could also upgrade and customize.
MMOs make a big mistake with crafting which is that it's often only really feasible to do at a main town. Not at any town which you might come across during your adventure, only a main town/city. Whether it's because they don't give you convenient access to all of your materials, or they need a special crafting bench, or the recipes need you to buy supplies from vendors/other players.
This works in crafting/survival games because not only do you have limited crafting while out in the world, going back to your base is part of the core/main gameplay. In MMOs, going back to main cities, if you're following the story or just questing as it becomes available, is a much more rare occurrence and you're not incentivized to spend your time there crafting, since usually you have a random goal to complete before you get back out there.
Fishing and gathering tend to work best as a side activity in MMOs because you can do it anywhere(ish) in the world, at any time, if you feel like it or when you're waiting for something.
The most important thing this taught me is that Doom needs a fishing minigame. I want to pull demon-fish out of the water just to rip them into pieces with my bare hands.
BAIT AND HOOK
This might explain why I no longer play Final Fantasy XIV anymore. I hyperfocused on the story, completing each expansion in weeks, and then I had nothing else.
The next big thing was crafting so I hyperfocused on that. I got at least 3 crafting jobs to 90 before I dropped it.
Then I realized I was low on Gil, so I hyperfocused on making Gil. I would spent months doing nothing but crafting/gathering while watching movies on Netflix just to see my Gil count go up before I dropped it.
Then I remembered how much I loved fishing. It was the first gathering job I ever got to 90 and decided to go back to it. However by the time I got back to it, it was too late. I was burnt out, so I didn’t spend much time with fishing before dropping that as well.
Finally the new patches for Endwalker’s story dropped. I felt like I needed to do it, but ultimately chose not to, because by that point I was completely burnt out from the game. I had no real motivation to get myself caught up on story anymore because “what was the point?”
Plus by completing base Endwalker, I felt like I gave my character a good send off to his saga. Eventually my sub ran out and I didn’t even bother renewing it because I didn’t see the point of playing anymore.
I'm glad Pixel A Day is getting some love - I discovered her channel about a month ago and love it!
18:17 haha I wasn't expecting that. I find it interesting that you showed a clip of CrossCode when talking about getting burnt out by side content and I felt the same way sometimes. I remember seeing someone say the way to play it is to just do the side quests you come across and don't try and be a completionist and that helped me enjoy the game more I think.
Yeah, same. I'd almost always do them as soon as theyre available, and only very rarely save them for later (after trying and failing for 20+ minutes on them). I got better at it on my second playthrough, though.
I haven't played CC specifically, but I'm learnt that if you don't want to get burnt out on a game you should just do what you feel like doing at the moment, whether that's doing sidequests, continuing the story, punching trees to get resources or just faffing around with any random mechanic that catches your fancy.
i find it funny actually because there's a running joke in the game about how there used to be a fishing minigame that was removed, and how there was an entire guild that dedicated themselves to the mechanic about how badly they wanted it back
14:00 Can confirm that in an MMO with lots of checklisted lore items, I always breezed past these to just acquire them... and instantly skip right away, because there was actual gameplay going on that demanded my attention. And of course, there was little point in going back to read/listen to those later because the list was almost always incomplete and missing pieces, so engaging with them at that point sounded like a bad idea anyway. And the only time when you would 100% this list would be when you needed that collection for some other item, so you would, again, just breeze past these chasing a completely different, unconnected goal. What a great, efficient use of development resources, isn't it?
Even more annoying because those pieces are either delierately out of order or randomly given so you can almost never get the chronological story. I get that part of it is to hint that there's bits that you're missing and trying to incentivize you to find them, but for me personally I detest being spoiled on things and would vastly prefer to go from beginning to end. I can sometimes forgive it if I can see the narrative sense in getting certain parts before the beginning, but from what I recall very few games do that.
One thing I think FNAF VR: Help Wanted does well in this regard is that those secret tapes are pretty much always gathered in order, IIRC, even if your chance at finding them is "random" (or at least you can easily miss one on your first attempts). So even if you beat all the FNaF1 stuff and don't see a tape, but do find one in FNAF2, it'll still be the first tape every single time. That being said, it's been awhile since I've seen any playthroughs of it so I don't remember if this is actually true.
Totally agree about this being a missing element of Returnal, no part of that game discouraged me from continuing to play more than watching the opening cutscenes for the 25th time and being spit right back out to restart the same loop
Turns out Sonic Frontiers is going to include Big teaching Sonic how to fish. Which, however else that game turns out, is excellent news.
I've been playing Splatoon recently, and the fact that, not only are there 3 large game modes, 1 being the story mode, the other 2 being the online battles, but in Splatoon 3, they added Tableturf Battle, which is just a small little side game, but it's honestly really fun to hop into for a bit, and as you play the other gamemodes, you'll often find yourself getting Tableturf cards to upgrade your Tableturf deck, encouraging you to go back and play a bit more.
Ah, yes, Stardew Valley's famous season-dependent objectives... one of these years, Claus... one of these years...
Nice video explaining how taking breaks from long stetches of combat and normal gameplay gives us time to relax
Good question, the game architect, Adam Millard.
Good point about Doom 2016, I absolutely loved it but couldn't play for more than an hour at a time.
I didn't finish Doom Eternal for a similar reason, there's only so many times you can see the marauder before getting worn out
I remember Undertale 2 had a joke about it where it said "here's the obligatory fishing mini-game."
This is why Gwent was so much fun in the Witcher 3!! It filled the same niche as fishing. Great video!
Oddly enough your comments about crafting in ff14 made me think about what happened to me. In my case I actually really liked the crafting and near the start once I had access to the different cities, I kind of just veered off into the crafting entirely. My fun was essentially finding everything I needed for a craft, which required either extensive searching or a googling it, and the crafting itself had it's own progression with you being able to make better crafting gear as you leveled. However unfortunately for me I got stuck around lvl 55 since I had to complete the ARR story, which wasn't really part of my main thing, and well I had to slog through that. And while the main story was interesting, (the ton of small quests with little rewards after the main quest that were still mandatory weren't) it wasn't my main activity and being locked off from the places I'd need to continue crafting better stuff kind of dropped my interest.
As an avid Final Fantasy 14 fan that's terrified to see my /playtime, I agree about how they treat crafting and crafted gear. Perhaps the worst thing about it is the majority of it either isnt useful for your combat classes, only briefly useful, or is furniture for a house that less than 10% of players can get. Yes there's apartments but decorating a small room is hardly good.
Surprised no ones called out the Mr Frundles cameo at 12:49 yet
Valhiem is one of the best example, you could spend hour bringing silver to make wolf armour but if you come back you realise you have a bunch of miteral unused and an idea for a cool tavern or a storage area (or something like that) so you end up cooling your self by expanding your base and you will be ready for an next adventure. (valhiem is a good game go play it with your friends if you have some)
Imo this is the same thing that made the persona series so popular. I can't play JRPGs or visual novels for too long at a time but combining the two can keep me occupied for hours
Shoutout to ultrakill for making a 5th of the levels a secret bonus genre changing level for no reason at all
I'm not sure if Adam skipped talking about Hades' fishing minigame intentionally ir not...
Anyways, great video!!
This must have been why I was able to finish FF7 Remake. Not because of fishing but because of its mandatory diversions and linear story.
This is one of the main draws of many survival/crafting games. There's exploration and resource gathering, and there's base building. Both of them support each other, and they're fairly different in terms of gameplay. I'm currently replaying Fallout 4 with some mods that expand on the settlements (which makes it come closer to a survival/crafting game), which gives more of a goal to expand on those past basic resource production.
The problem with those mainly show up if one part grows stale or starts to only support itself. It's common that once the base gets to a certain part it's just about building more base for the sake of building more base, without providing anything for the outside base gameplay, or even reaching any particular goal within themselves. When the game reaches that point, it's usually time to start thinking about the end game and finish the main quest if there is one. And many of these games just don't have an ending as such, so there's just nothing else to do. But for some games that part of the game is the appeal, and they can be played for long after reaching that part.
The chao garden is the only thing I remember from when I played Sonic Adventures all those years ago. It's probably one of those things where trauma makes the brain black out relevant memories.
That's a common experience as far as I can tell. A decent proportion of the levels and fights in that game suck balls. But nobody remembers that, because the Chao Garden grind incentivized us to replay the good levels in order to get Chao resources. So we all just replayed City Escape 100 times with no regrets. 🙂 That's proof of great diversion design, imo.
@@Drekromancer yeah. I was thinking to myself what games have I actually poured a ton of hours into the "diversions" and i can only think of chao garden from Sonic 2 Adventure battle. It makes me think I just did not enjoy mini games in any other games. Though id argue Chao gareden is an Entirely Self contained game that has its own set of mini-games than a minigame in and of itself.....
15:39 I dont appreciate you taking a recording of my Gloomwood playthrough without asking 😂
Thank you for talking about the Chao Garden :,)
It’s my favorite cooldown game in any game I’ve ever played because after a while I was only playing the main game to get stuff for the CG. I hope one day we get another one but have accepted that I likely won’t.
I pray for it, too. Nothing has ever made me feel quite as warm and fuzzy as the Chao Garden.
Thanks for the explainer! This makes a lot of sense- one of those things I’m sure I’ll start seeing everywhere now. Keep up the great content! God bless you :)
I find IRL fishing fun and relaxing (although I rarely take the time to do it outside of vacations), but I can't be bothered at all with the mini games. My diversion is just going to play something else, reading a bit or having a walk outside.
Funny, because to me, it's the opposite.
I have no interest in fishing in real life, but I will always give it a go in every games that has it.
One game which I think does diversions pretty well is Astral Chain. The game basically has layers of activities in each episode of the game. There are non-combat quests which are identified with a blue marker and red combat quests in which you are given a rank, based on how well you did in combat. Both of those kinds of missions can be main or side quests, including missions from Neuron itself, challenges and tasks given by your colleagues or random people on the streets and even a few minigames here and there.
Aside from those, you also have two sets of collection quests that appear in each episode: adopting cats and taking bathroom breaks.
Bathroom breaks don't have any major gameplay implications aside from in-game achievements and a few rewards but the cats you adopt are actually sent to a room you can visit. One of the materials you end up collecting during gameplay is also cat food, which you can feed to the cats you're adopted and which the cats will reward you for by giving you other kinds of materials
So THIS is why I can't stay attached to elden ring despite it being my favorite game. I have been playing with a mod, and every major update, I want to start all over again, making me want to rush to where I was previously without missing anything. This pace means I am not allowed to relax and enjoy the game without feeling like I am missing out by either skipping content, or not reaching new content in time for the next major update. I probably would make it if I just played it instead of complaining, but then I may not actually enjoy it.
I don't understand what you're saying at all. What mod are you playing with? And why do you feel so compelled to replay the game each time there's a patch? Only one of the games patches actually added new content and that was shortly after the games release. The rest have just been balancing patches.
For me, I spent 500 hours on my first playthru of Elden Ring, fully exploring every nook and cranny of each region and beating all the dungeons/catacombs before moving on to the next area. After that, each NG+ playthru took less than 100 hours as I didn't feel the need to re explore every area and dungeon and instead used those playthrus to explore new builds and experiment with different weapons and magic setups as well as working towards different endings each time. I never felt rushed and it was a very satisfying way to play for me personally. Now with around 800 hours in the game I'm satisfied with the time I spent playing and will probably wait and revisit the game once there is hopefully a major DLC expansion, at which time I anticipate doing an entire new playthru and putting probably another 500+ hours into the game.
Just wanted to share my experience and what worked for me, as your anxiety and issues with the pacing of your playthru seems to be largely self imposed and avoidable. I hope you're able to find a way to play that causes you less stress in the future. Elden Ring is an absolutely singular gaming experience that has so much to offer and one of its biggest strengths to me is how the game allows for so many different playstyles and let's you tailor the experience to what suits you personally.
@@joshmay2944 the patch I was talking about was for the mod, and the mod is called "Elden Ring Reloaded" it is the first overhaul mod for Elden ring, and yes I have attention issues (not anxiety issues though). My situation doesn't reflect most peoples' experience, and my experience has very little to do with the quality of the game aside from the fact that the game is just absolutely huge.
This is why zelda was genius for having 900 simple korok puzzles to fill the world with meaningful progress that few could ever hope to complete
so funny how skyrim didn't even have fishing and they added it a decade later
Honestly habitation can apply to a lot of things in life. People in general start feeling super burnt out in general by doing the same shit over and over again. From our relationships with other people, our jobs or hobbies. Eventually most people just kinda get tired of the cycle they find themselves in.
I've always hated the "keep the bar over X image" fishing minigames because it made me think harder than the actual game. Fishing games that are just hitting a button once or multiple times at a specific time were easier and fit into what fishing in most games was supposed to be.
I wonder how habituation factors into things like Flow states. When you mentioned the Dota point, I thought back on some times where I've been able to play a days worth of rounds without getting tired when I was younger. Nowadays, I can maybe make it to three if I stretch it, but it seems as if habituation is something that becomes more prominent as you age. At least, that's my assumption from my singular experience.
Fishing mini games are some of the key things I look for in a game, no joke. They easily bump up a game up a star for me if they're good
6:36
Is anyone else bothered by the fact that it COULD'VE been a perfect figure-8 loop but it ISN'T and my disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined?
Entirely spot on. We need mini games within our games, so that we can take a break from the stress of gaming by doing a light spot of gaming within the game. We need to go one step further for true enlightenment though.
More seriously, rather than calling fishing mini games a distraction however, I'd be tempted to call them an _anti-distraction_ . Distractions normally drag your attention somewhere specific and make you focus on that. Fishing mini games, as done in Zelda for example, purposefully send your attention nowhere at all and lets your focus drift. That makes them relaxing and, more importantly, reflective. It gives you a pause to recollect what happened in the story, to admire the aesthetic style of the game, to be lullabied by the music. These are all things which we often miss in the tension of gameplay, fishing lets us experience them from our recent memories. Same thing with the safe areas you mentioned, but very different from some of the high-octane mini-games that were brought up in the video.
WAIT, YOU CAN FISH IN "A Short Hike"?????????????????????????????
I need to play that game again. There's clearly something I need to do.
Btw, great video. I love the way you deconstruct some of the weirdest tropes or abstract video game concepts the industry has. Keep it up.
Downtime is very important. It's part of the reason why I like Fallout 3/new vegas so much and not outer worlds. The inbetween walking bits let you calm down for 5-10 minutes. Little mini hiking moments.
M
I find it best when you can mess around with the ai or the structure of the game. vats headshots and dumb obliterations of enemies with hammers and such, and then playing around with all of that by having strategic save points.
Morrowind having limited fast travel mechanics and lack of quest markers honestly makes the game so much more fun. You find so many interesting things on your travels when your eyes aren't glued to a compass marker.
I think this video helps me understand why I love the gameplay loop so much in games like Cult of the Lamb, Moonlighter, or the Atelier series. Lots of games break things up with diversions, but I really love it when those systems are elaborated out so they're not just diversions anymore, but the entire other half of the game.
Okay, I need you to really look at what you did at 6:37. Then realize just how satisfying it would have been to have the dot moving in a figure 8 pattern! Shame on you… 🤣
I was going to comment that, but decided to check the comments first for if someone else already did... and hey, yeah.
I can only imagine this was done on purpose, as an insult. Shame on you, Adam Millard - The Architect of Improperly Looping Circles!
watching this made me realize I've been over stimulated from youtube and should take a well deserved break :)