Thank you for once again having me (Keith) on to discuss the final game in the Xenosaga series, and the structure of the universe ;) It was a truly a mammoth discussion with an amazing group, and I hope the audience enjoyed our collective contributions! Always happy to join such conversations in the future if everyone would like that. Thank you again!
Heya! Thanks for letting me talk about stuff even though I have a lot of anxiety in these types of group situations. It was great to be able to be included in one of these kinds of discussions since I've been following the channel for maybe a little bit after I played Xenosaga for the first time so around 10 years ago. I'm not an expert about some of the things I talked about but hopefully I was able to enhance people's understanding of this wonderful game series. There were some other things I wanted to talk about so I'll try to post them under this comment as I think of them.
One thing was the etymology of the popular music track, Godsibb. There were a lot of comments about this song specifically. Literally "relative of God" from Old English. Marriam Webster says that the definition was: "A person spiritually related to another, specifically by being a sponsor at baptism." This word is the etymology of a modern word that we use all of the time in English which is "gossip". It's also where the term Godparent comes from.
I wanted to talk about this during the mathematics portion of the game and that was about the lesser known Big Crunch theory, which is the opposite of the Big Bang theory. There are multiple models of the universe which exist which the universe is in an oscillating state, but the Xenosaga 3 database does mention Big Crunch specifically.
On the topic of universal cycles, there is another Persian religion which discusses these types of spiritual cycles and also includes figures from Christianity, Hinduism and Islam (religions mentioned in Xenosaga in some capacity) called Bahai'ism. Though I might be reaching for this interpretation I found it to be quite interesting.
One of chaos' counter attacks is called "Rashomon" this is named after the 1951 Akira Kurasawa film of the same name. There is an idea from this film called the "Rashomon Effect" Wikipedia describes this effect as: The Rashomon effect is a storytelling and writing method in cinema in which an event is given contradictory interpretations or descriptions by the individuals involved, thereby providing different perspectives and points of view of the same incident. Perhaps this is a reference to the type of story telling used for telling about the Miltian Conflict, and also since this is attributed to chaos, competing accounts of the crucifixion of Christ.
I finished watching this and just wanted to thank Mike, Casen, and all of the wonderful guests on the panel, TJ, Keith, David, and Aidan for such a great discussion.
Thanks for the great discussion! I was asked to comment on the Enneagram in Xenosaga. I agree with the consensus that the typings in the official design materials aren’t particularly good fits, and likely did not come from Takahashi. I also agree with David’s suggestion that the characters seem more inspired by Enneagram than being attempts at detailed portraits of the types. I wish I could comment more on characters in Xenosaga more specifically, but while I’ve listened to the entire podcast with interest, I’ve yet to play the games! I can still speak to the situation in Xenogears, which I recently replayed. There, the degree to which a type is portrayed varies a lot across characters. Elly is clearly intended to be a portrait of Type 2 and an exploration of the archetype. But it’s unclear to me whether Bart was intended as Type 7 or Type 8, or whether Citan was intended as Type 5 or Type 6, and different fans have different assessments. And while Billy and Rico were clearly modeled on types 1 and 8, the characterizations are too thin to constitute in-depth explorations of these types. I’m inclined to interpret the situation as Takahashi trying to do so many different things simultaneously that there wasn’t enough time or space to explore all of the constructs in detail. Regarding Keith’s comment that it seems overly reductionist to round characters off to membership in one of 9 categories, it’s true that people’s personalities vary along hundreds if not thousands of dimensions. In parallel with this, the Enneagram typology does seem to carry an unusually large amount of explanatory power & predictive power relative to the ~3 bits of information needed to specify an individual’s type. My own belief is that nearly every individual has a single well-defined type, though this has yet to be established rigorously. I’m happy to elaborate here if anyone would like! Regarding Keith’s question about the evolution of types, Mike made reference to directions of growth / integration and stress / disintegration, and this is something that interested viewers can read more about (Sandra Maitri’s book “The Spiritual Dimension of the Enneagram gives one of the clearer explanations that I’ve seen). Here too, the Enneagram will captures only a small portion of what there is to say about the evolution of characters and people. The Enneagram is still worthy of disproportionate focus if it says more than one would expect of a model of its simplicity. Given that Takahashi did intend to communicate content about the Enneagram, I believe that Xenogears would have been a greater work with more characters who better exemplified the types. Yet, just as we are grateful for having only one episode of an intended six, so too can we be grateful that at least some interesting material about the Enneagram made it in.
I love these podcasts so much. Like Mike said, I too always feel like I learn so much, and still have so much more to learn. I have no friends, family, co-workers, or any other relationships that have so much as a passing interest in this stuff, so I feel I have no personal outlet or anywhere else I can go to for these kinds of discussions. Keep up the good work, everyone! I'm so impressed by all of you! ;)
Thank you for this very in-depth discussion. Jesus’ impact on chaos and the conversation on Kevin’s psychology were particularly insightful. I also really like how Keith talks about the way in which games inspire real life science!
It's not only the ambition of the game that is huge. This podcast tackling all these topics is ambitious on it's own. The amount of episodes of podcasts is in the 40s all analysing xenogears and saga. Tons of effort put into each one, hours of content. It's hugely appreciated how much work you guys put in. As you guys pointed out in these episode having even entry level knowledge on ALL of the different topics featured in this game is no small task. For that reason, analysis of it is deeply underexplored, which is a shame since there's so much there that people miss. Creating these episodes, inviting guests that can fill these specific niches, unifying discussion to a community together 20 years after their relavance and by responding to their comments. It's all necessary to do the game justice. You're at the forefront unparreled for game analysis with allocating this many different resourcres of efforts and thoughts all together to make a whole that no single person could ever achieve. And I think recognition for that is kind of understated. So thanks a lot. I'd even be interested in a eventual followup podcast maybe even in a year+ possibly about xenogears and xenosaga again before Xenoblade. Specifically especially for xenosaga 3 and its relation to Nietzsche, in episode 0 of the podcast there was many things we were given to think about coming to the end of the game. But in the podcast itself it wasn't a huge discussion point, though to be fair we can't know answer to questions like why is it always the antagonists who have Nietzschian like qualities, and the conclusions the writers were making on Nietzsche. It's Just that the episode 0 thematic style tie in to the podcast finale wasn't so clean as initially expected. But the entire contents of the final episode was still excellent stuff. Really amazing episode, so much so that I want *even* more of it, but that is just greedy of me of course haha. Can't wait the that animus anima discussion in that teased Princess Mononoke podcast too.
This series of podcasts was a fantastic listen. As a long time fan of the Xenosaga games I thank you for covering them and their facets of storytelling.
Great job guys. Alot of great discussion. Keith did a great job of explaining the top level lore for the game, which ultimately doesn't matter for the personal story being told. Though knowing it makes everything less mysterious.
In my mind the way these xeno games fit together is what Keith described about the different lower domains. I think that was all explained in a database entry or somewhere in XS3, but I remember reading that thinking "oh this is the way they are going to get around this series spanning 3 companies now". There's obviously no smoking gun evidence that is the correct answer, but also in interviews they'd never admit they were forming a direct relationship to a game owned by another company. Though when you collect all the Xenogears "references" it's hard to think they were all cute cameos when they are also working toward the same story. Especially as Keith points out in the way both games end. Ultimately for the RA podcast that doesn't matter. While narrative connections are debatable, the thematic connections and the subtextual connections are evident. That these games are a long evolution of the same conversation with their shifting audience is extremely interesting. Especially since a game like XBC2 and Xenosaga 3 are courting a very different player.
Woof. Long series wrapped! Fantastic, much love and appreciation to the panel as well. Great to hear all of the differing perspectives. Hopefully you can take a 2 or 3 game break from the Takahashi works to make sure you're mentally well rested and ready for the next one. I don't doubt your stamina and I know the blade games aren't quite as front heavy, but still.
absolutely outstanding episode and podcast overall. so happy to have been here live as you rolled these episodes out. i think this one finally convinced me that i want to take my own shot at a xeno series podcast; i'm really feeling the fire after ingesting four hours of content at once and i am very long overdue to play these games again. holidays are coming up so i expect to be busier than i'd like, but i'm really feeling like i'm gonna get it out in early 2025. i NEED to talk about these games more haha
On the topic of people wanting to fit all these xeno games together I agree that there is no way that they cleanly fit together like puzzle pieces, but as Keith describes they are clearly all still tracking that perfect works style meta narrative. It seems clear to me that if Xenosaga kept going they would reinterpret Xenogears and in absence of that you can look to Xenogears to see where it was going. It would need to be legally distinct for obvious reasons and I think we were seeing those changes manifest in the Xs episodes we got. Also Takahashi did do pretty significant retcons to Xenoblade 1 when definitive edition came out which makes it more narratively connected to the greater series. So I think even Takahashi has evolved what it means to be a xeno game as time has gone on.
if a Xenosaga remaster ever actually happens I'll be very curious to see what (if any) retcons they actually put in and what edits they make to smooth out the experience between the three games. We've seen Monolith both do a pretty literal rerelease with Baiten Kaitos and a more overhauling rerelease with XBC1 Definitive Edition. I don't know which I'd prefer, but either way I'd really like XS3 to reappear in a form that doesn't require piracy or a second mortgage to experience.
@@ValToadstool that's what I'm talking about. That is a pretty big retcon. If I explain all the rest it is spoiler for multiple games and we are in a xenosaga video thread.
Just read your comment @phillo and haven't yet to play Xenoblade, knowing that the definitive edition that I have on the switch pieces together the bigger narrative of the other three Xenoblade games (four including xeno on Wii U?) it's nice to see when I get around the playing them. I'm looking forward to it all.
I was one of those Xenogears fans that didn't have the best opinion of Xenosaga after it was over. What irked me a lot that all that the major plot at the end came down to another villain doing a world reset. It was something ive seen in games and anime before multiple times. This podcast series really has given me a different perspective on that, apparently eternal reoccurrence is a big Nietzsche thing, i had no idea. Also being like 20 years older now has changed my views on things a lot. The character drama is actually really well done yeah. They really took a risk with writing Shion the way she is and now i can understand her much better. Back in the day i found the whole Shion going with Kevin thing so dumb, but now, after dealing with addiction myself, i can totally understand why she would take the easy way. The plot really hits a lot different when your older. So yeah, thanks for this entire series, you guys have really changed my opinion on Xenosaga.
Good series. I watched an Indian movie called Kalki 2898 the other day and, while anime in general seems to be its influences, it reminded me a lot of the Xeno games in terms of setting.
Great conversation! I never thought about the emotional motivators for the villains being different in Xenogears and Xenosaga. What I find interesting about emotions is how they fit into time. Grief, trauma, regret (or lamentation, i love that distinction from David) are intrinsically rooted in the past. Fear, hope, desire (or will), are all rooted in the future. Kind of an interesting exercise to sort emotions/states of mind into a past, present, future construction. I do think more broadly, the casts of both games deal with and are motivated by all of these things.
Notes from when I was watching: The ending scene is a reference to 2001 but it's also the inverse, where the son is below the earth, in 2001 this symbolized a sort of ascension for humanity as they left the earth while here it's the opposite, humans are returning to earth, sort of descending. The earth having a ring around it would've made more sense if they got to go into that xenogears direction, saturn is meant to represent the demiurge and the ring can be seen as representing a cycle, which is what XG's plot revolves around. The ring is basically a sort of ouroboros. You guys mentioned Allen's name meaning handsome, but so can Kevin's. Just kind of a funny thing. Expanding on the christ thing, Wilhilem's mech which is a part of his being is named Joshua, referencing Jesus. It was probably intended as another way for Wilhelm to parallel chaos and maybe make him like a sort of antichrist. I don't feel like defending everyone's enneagram clasification but I think Shion's makes sense because of her escapist nature that sort of seeks ways to avoid facing her pain fitting in with the type 7 And on the way Gears and Saga are both sort of opposites of one another, one thing I find interesting is how Gears largely focuses on the theme of how humans are fractured and can sort of complete one another. Saga then focuses largely on how people reject one another and the fear people have of assimilation with each other.
Been with you guys since the OG days with you're old channel name and just wanted to say thabk you for the content you guys provide. Much love to you all
The theory spoken of at around 2:08:00 is probably correct. I have been doing a decade+ long meditation program that uses technology to force brainwaves into low delta (sometimes called epsilon). Over time you start creating these “sleep” waves in your waking state, just like, 20+ year Buddhist meditators do, but you do it after a couple years, and with only an hour a day of training. The main theory about how this cause the benefits of a meditation practice is that you get brain wave coherence, and dis-integrated ideas and worldviews are forced to integrate. And not surprisingly, almost everyone who does this and similar programs gets into IFS therapy theory. On a related note, a famous American Zen Buddhist teacher actually started experimenting with a Zen version of IFS called “Big Mind” about 20 years ago, and it has replaced a lot of Zen and other practices in western countries. Basically, “talking and listening to” different motivations within yourself causes many of the same benefits as mediation, but faster and without having to buy into all of the religious/ritual trappings that eastern meditation come with. Though some of them are fun and/or useful. 😅
A small correction on the discussion of levels of infinities from 2:03:50-2:05:40: If one is talking about cardinality (ℵ0, ℵ1...), then what distinguishes the counting numbers from the real numbers is *not* the fact that the real numbers are dense (have the property that between any two there is another). The rational numbers (of the form a/b where and b are integers) are dense and despite this, they are of the same cardinality ℵ0 as the counting numbers. This is because they can be "counted" (enumerated in a list). To see that the real numbers have cardinality higher than the real numbers, it's necessary to consider *all* possible hypothetical ways of counting the real numbers and show that *none* of these hypothetical ways of counting all real numbers exhausts all of them. There are, however other ways of defining higher levels of infinity for which the rational numbers (and dense sets of numbers more generally) show up as "larger" than the the natural numbers ( Googling "order type" gives information)
Hi Jonah! Great call and you are indeed correct. I transitioned from talking about properties through which you can analyze sets - and while density is indeed one such interesting property a set can have or not, it is actually not a property that has bearing on cardinality to which I was referring. Great catch, and I'll take care to be more precise in the future! Also, this is just another opportunity to highlight what an amazing community this is on the RA channel, with such a high level of knowledge in so many areas!
Great podcast conclusion to a great trilogy. You guys go really deep! I never thought of most of the things said in this video about the game. It's been over 10 years since the last time I played Xenosaga, but I don't remember chaos being the messiah, but a special follower of Jesus. One small detail i would like to bring is the ultimate skills of chaos in battle. When he performs the tecnique, he says things like " Bring peace to this soul" and "Bring light to these souls lost in the abyss". Episode 3 is by far the best of the series. The E.S. battles are fantastic, the character design is amazing, the story(specially the ending) is really powerful. Great stuff. Congratulations to all of you.
Regarding Alan, I wish Shion had battle options such as "Alan Shield" where Alan appears, and becomes a damage sponge for Shook, or maybe "Alan Charge" where Shion chews him out, and he rushes forward to attack the enemy, unarmed.
I’ve heard of a blind rage before but the idea of Fear Narrowing or in fact blinding people to creative inspirations or knowledge itself. This positions Knowledge and Fear as Antipodes very cool idea.
I'm sad this is ending, after this I'll probably start watching the Xenogears playlist again. These videos fill a place or need that other kinds of entertainment don't fill.
I dont know if its been talked about much amongst the Xeno games and their inspirations, but it sounds like Keith in his explaining of the universe(s), echoes very much of Itzhak Bentovs explanations of the universe and consciousness. Who also has influences from ancient yogic philosophy amongst others. The microcosms mirror the macrocosms or as above so below and thats how udo and the wave existence are perceiving the lower domains. Not unlike how we perceive the "lower" biological ecosystems(cells n such) that both facilitate and constitute the "higher" systems(organs, nervous system) and so on, in a gestalt type of manner...at least as best as we can perceive these concepts anyways
Great podcast once again. I was thinking of the next worthy Xeno title after this one, in terms of the theme of Human Connectiveness, and I really think its the city of New LA in X, especially the side stories and all that, characters living in a new world and getting along with each other and stuff. Tons of characters, different races and such, living in one city, and all chained to the Life Thingy that i forgot the name of
What a stellar discussion that expounded on the foundations of this story we all cherish. I may be in a minority here, but i suspect that i am not the only one that had their Christian faith deepened even more when given the opportunity to interact with so many philosophical and scientific ideas introduced in these trilogy of games. It is PRECISELY because of the wacky-ness of the kind of “jesus” and “mary” that Takahashi fashioned to fit to the style of his game that made me plumb the depths of the real world figure of Jesus, the Christ figure in the Bible, and the implications of a personal, conscious God. There is so much more i would say, but i’d need to start a podcast of my own haha. Thank you guys for this long and awesome undertaking of a podcast! (Edited to be more concise after chewing on my thoughts a bit more lol)
Unrelated but, guys, please please please do Signalis. It's perfect for you. Go in blind but knowing it takes at least three or four playthroughs. Then start investigating the symbolism, the book, the paintings, the references. The thing is a masterpiece, it's an indie game that puts AAA from the last 10 years to shame.
I was never really into Xenosaga. I own all three. I played them once. Am a staunch defender that the 2nd entry is better than the first due to having more music and better combat and cutscene direction. But all this "what is actually going on" stuff with higher dimensions and Wilhelm. It's just too much. I vastly preferred Xenogears. I will never understand how anyone can have such adoration for Xenosaga Saga 1 with it's one battle theme, incredibly slow battle system, and bland settings. I think it should have been an anime. I know it was partially, but like a fully fleshed out one that covers the whole Saga. And even though Xenogears used to be my favorite game ever, it's held up for me less on replays because of the faults of disc 2's pacing. This is why Xenoblade 1 is my favorite Xeno game. It tells a self contained story and hits on a lot of the same themes, while having likeable cast of character and just fun exploration and gameplay. As well as a killer OST.
To the people saying the Xeno series can't be connected due to incongruencies: 1-) All Xenoblade games happen inside the Imaginary Number Domain and tell the origin story of the U.M.N. and how the Zohar was presumably planted in Lost Jerusalem by the Saamarians; 2-) Xenogears and Xenosaga didn't happen on the same Eternal Recurrence cycle, hence why U-DO/Wave Existence already knew how the Contact looks like (Abel). As anyone can see, chronological or date/year differences between Xenogears/Saga does not equal incongruity and it never has, hence the XC3's DLC. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Takahashi set up the Eternal Recurrence on purpose to both bypass copyright issues and to be able to rewrite and explore new ideas within his Perfect Works framework without at the same time invalidating his previous work. It's a clever approach that still enables story continuity and the use of central pieces like Fei/Zohar without being copyright struck for it. He finally managed to get permission or cooperation from Bandai Namco now so the next Xenoblade will probably be bonkers.
Future Redeemed (and the entire 3 package as a whole) only succeeded in dangling a carrot in front of Saga players by dropping callbacks instead of cleverly reincorporating them into the actual plot. These callbacks (which are all of the sudden VITAL btw) will only be understood by veteran players and everyone else will only just look this shit up on wikipedia instead of dusting off a ps2. Not ideal to generate hype for those in the know and alienate the rest of the audience.
But now the question remains. If you look at saga's ending as a reincarnation into xenogears. Should you play saga first or gears first? Id say definitely saga > gears. Then maybe how it alp plays out... Blade? Great video and thanks for everyone being on and givng their insight into this amazing series. I honestly don't think there is another series quite like this one that goes into such deep topics and discussions. Or is quite as engaging as this was.
I'd say Gear then Saga because (as the boys describe on the podcast) knowing Gears' plot and themes helps you more easily understand Saga. It kinda trains you better to digest Saga's story. I think the references work either way, but Gears maybe works better coming in cold than Saga does.
That logic is only complicated because of some obsession with a "must play in chronological order" mindset, when that was never the intention. Play them in whatever order you want lol.
@@BlackHairedTidus That reminds me of the other day where my wife was saying she wanted to watch the early MCU movies again in order since she really liked them. She then signed in to Disney+ and said excitedly that they have a paylist of the movies in order.... in chronological order and not release order :(. This mentality of needing to consume things in chronological order really bugs me when each product was meant to be an independant experience and if anything release order gives you the intended context at the time of the things original release. So my opinion is chronological order is just as good as random order if you wanna stray from a release order. In no world do you read the silmarillion prior to the The Fellowship or The Hobbit for the optimal experience.
Oh hey small note, at the moment, the Xenosaga 3 playlist is the wrong way around, it starts with this vid which is the end. RUclips is so dumb with these playlists. Anyway please fix this.
I know this is kinda off topic but I just wanted to comment that "childhood's end" is to me an horror book. I think the entity and the guardians are evil, what they are doing to civilizations is evil, it's genocide. The author or the characters can pretend all they want "it's a good thing!! it's the next step in evolution!!", but at the end of the day I agree with the faction that was like "GET OUT OF OUR PLANET, LEAVE US ALONE!!".
There are games that are, or are even more complex, than the Xeno games but they are all Visual Novels. I hope you all get over whatever bias that you all have against VNs. Dies Irae, Fate/Stay Night, Muv Luv Alternative, Steins;Gate, 999 & Virtues Last Reward, The House in Fata Morgana, and so many more are on the level of Xeno games but are VNs, or are Hybrid VNs. But if you want another JRPS series to dig into, then look into the Shin Megami Tensei series. It has lot of themes, religious symbolism, and competing philosophies in the games. Just start with SMT III Nocturne or the Digital Devil Saga Duology.
Steins;Gate is awesome as an anime series, the visual novel is not as good. The series did an excelent job. And I recommend watch only the original series, the bonus episode 25 (I think, the one where they end in the desert), and the movie. Ignore Zero. Steins;Gate Zero is atrocious, it's awful, it was not needed and it did nothing to improve the story, it was a total disappointment.
@@pelgervampireduck I disagree about the VN being bad. It's considered one of best VNs of all time for a reason. I did prefer Chaos;Head as a VN more from the science adventure series, but I can see why Steins;Gate is held in such high regard. But you should only play the science adventure titles on PC with their corresponding Committee of Zero patch.
Muv luv alternative is ok but you have to get through two full length games first that are horrifically borning. The payoff is not worth the investment imo.
It just occurred to me that you guys will have MASSIVE issues to sort out going into Xenoblade series. Like, how will you approach Xenoblade X now that Xenoblade 3 DLC exists? It is a logistical nightmare. 90% of XCX's content related to Xenogears/Saga/Blade is either hidden away in multiple layers of seemingly unrelated sidequests, random NPCs dialogue only available for a very brief window of time IF you picked the correct choices in previous interactions, random scenery or item descriptions or other equally obtuse ways to access the information INCLUDING mutually exclusive paths. Reading or watching it online doesn't work for this game. As a minor spoiler example of why it doesn't work: there is an implicit commentary on how humanity gender division can influence the collective unconscious of another species, causing it to break down into detached individuality. This is evident simply by specific types of NPCs walking around at specific locations. You can't read about this in the dialogue because it't not dialogue. You can't be sure any particular let's player will both trigger this AND walk around to see it. And you can't follow a guide for this because strictly speaking this is not a real side quest. The entire game is like this. Even if you had the time and energy to sink hundreds of hours being as thorough as possible you would still miss a lot of the big themes and connections. Do you guys have any plans on how to deal with this? I don't think there is a good solution to be honest and its online community did a really poor job documenting all of this stuff. Needless to say but by the time you guys reach XC3's DLC it will be impossible not to circle the discussion back into the previous games but particularly so in the case of Xenosagas and XCX. I know Mike has already played through XCX's intro (A.K.A. the "main" story) but you didn't know about U.M.N., gallactic federation, Abel Ark and other connections hidden in XCX back then and now of course with XC3 as well. Good luck approaching this, it won't be easy.
That's because XC3 ended up being a waste of an entry for the sake of hyping up the next installment instead. XCX gets a pass because it's independent from the rest (until Future Redeemed APPARENTLY).
My problem with the last scene with Kevin isn't that I see it as a redemption, but rather that the game frames his relationship with Shion as genuine love kept apart by circumstances, which feels really gross especially since he knew her as a child.
I know this is a few weeks late, but hearing Keith in 35:06 that he has the same theory(but explained in a better way) as me, because I did a video at the beggining of the year when a finished the whole trilogy of Xenoblade Chronicles + DLC and hearing him bringin' the same point is so validating, because the question that Takahashi makes, clearly resonates around the 3 series. Gears, Saga and Blade kinda prepares an "end of the universe event" and how to survive it. But still, it was fantastic hearing someone what I was thinking. Also, when the time comes to discuss Xenoblade, I hope that you can bring comments around the music and how it is used to complement the narrative and characters arcs to the player. Xenoblade must be discused with history and music at the same level.
I dont think the xenosaga games are good games and I have tried giving them a fair shot multiple times. I also dont agree that the creator of xenogears should be given the benefit of the doubt in the way he approaches his stories, i always found the philosophical ties feeling cheap and on the nose and not born from a creative engagement. Love the discussion as always but i think way too much credit given to bad writing and planning.
what are you talking about? the writing is great. maybe the planning was too ambitious. I wish he could have made Xenogears episode 6 to know how it would have ended, and Xenosaga episodes 4, 5 and 6.
![FNAF vs TF2 - Episode 2 [SFM]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/z5b3V2-VLb0/mqdefault.jpg)
Regarding the Childhood's End Spoilers, skip from 1:54:32 to 1:57:00
Thank you for once again having me (Keith) on to discuss the final game in the Xenosaga series, and the structure of the universe ;) It was a truly a mammoth discussion with an amazing group, and I hope the audience enjoyed our collective contributions! Always happy to join such conversations in the future if everyone would like that. Thank you again!
Really appreciated your contribution!
@@orcbrand Thanks!
Keith, thank you for your thoughts! You have a really unique angle to perceive the series!
Heya! Thanks for letting me talk about stuff even though I have a lot of anxiety in these types of group situations. It was great to be able to be included in one of these kinds of discussions since I've been following the channel for maybe a little bit after I played Xenosaga for the first time so around 10 years ago. I'm not an expert about some of the things I talked about but hopefully I was able to enhance people's understanding of this wonderful game series. There were some other things I wanted to talk about so I'll try to post them under this comment as I think of them.
One thing was the etymology of the popular music track, Godsibb. There were a lot of comments about this song specifically. Literally "relative of God" from Old English. Marriam Webster says that the definition was: "A person spiritually related to another, specifically by being a sponsor at baptism." This word is the etymology of a modern word that we use all of the time in English which is "gossip". It's also where the term Godparent comes from.
I wanted to talk about this during the mathematics portion of the game and that was about the lesser known Big Crunch theory, which is the opposite of the Big Bang theory. There are multiple models of the universe which exist which the universe is in an oscillating state, but the Xenosaga 3 database does mention Big Crunch specifically.
On the topic of universal cycles, there is another Persian religion which discusses these types of spiritual cycles and also includes figures from Christianity, Hinduism and Islam (religions mentioned in Xenosaga in some capacity) called Bahai'ism. Though I might be reaching for this interpretation I found it to be quite interesting.
One of chaos' counter attacks is called "Rashomon" this is named after the 1951 Akira Kurasawa film of the same name. There is an idea from this film called the "Rashomon Effect"
Wikipedia describes this effect as:
The Rashomon effect is a storytelling and writing method in cinema in which an event is given contradictory interpretations or descriptions by the individuals involved, thereby providing different perspectives and points of view of the same incident.
Perhaps this is a reference to the type of story telling used for telling about the Miltian Conflict, and also since this is attributed to chaos, competing accounts of the crucifixion of Christ.
The Gospel of Mary Magdalene (the actual text) contemplates the destruction of all matter in the universe at the very beginning of the text.
Phew, now that this series is finally over maybe it'll LEMEGETON with my life!
Were you holding onto that one this entire time?
AYOOOOO 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@Mastersaifer since last episode lol
I finished watching this and just wanted to thank Mike, Casen, and all of the wonderful guests on the panel, TJ, Keith, David, and Aidan for such a great discussion.
Thanks for the great discussion! I was asked to comment on the Enneagram in Xenosaga. I agree with the consensus that the typings in the official design materials aren’t particularly good fits, and likely did not come from Takahashi. I also agree with David’s suggestion that the characters seem more inspired by Enneagram than being attempts at detailed portraits of the types.
I wish I could comment more on characters in Xenosaga more specifically, but while I’ve listened to the entire podcast with interest, I’ve yet to play the games! I can still speak to the situation in Xenogears, which I recently replayed. There, the degree to which a type is portrayed varies a lot across characters. Elly is clearly intended to be a portrait of Type 2 and an exploration of the archetype. But it’s unclear to me whether Bart was intended as Type 7 or Type 8, or whether Citan was intended as Type 5 or Type 6, and different fans have different assessments. And while Billy and Rico were clearly modeled on types 1 and 8, the characterizations are too thin to constitute in-depth explorations of these types. I’m inclined to interpret the situation as Takahashi trying to do so many different things simultaneously that there wasn’t enough time or space to explore all of the constructs in detail.
Regarding Keith’s comment that it seems overly reductionist to round characters off to membership in one of 9 categories, it’s true that people’s personalities vary along hundreds if not thousands of dimensions. In parallel with this, the Enneagram typology does seem to carry an unusually large amount of explanatory power & predictive power relative to the ~3 bits of information needed to specify an individual’s type. My own belief is that nearly every individual has a single well-defined type, though this has yet to be established rigorously. I’m happy to elaborate here if anyone would like!
Regarding Keith’s question about the evolution of types, Mike made reference to directions of growth / integration and stress / disintegration, and this is something that interested viewers can read more about (Sandra Maitri’s book “The Spiritual Dimension of the Enneagram gives one of the clearer explanations that I’ve seen). Here too, the Enneagram will captures only a small portion of what there is to say about the evolution of characters and people. The Enneagram is still worthy of disproportionate focus if it says more than one would expect of a model of its simplicity.
Given that Takahashi did intend to communicate content about the Enneagram, I believe that Xenogears would have been a greater work with more characters who better exemplified the types. Yet, just as we are grateful for having only one episode of an intended six, so too can we be grateful that at least some interesting material about the Enneagram made it in.
I love these podcasts so much. Like Mike said, I too always feel like I learn so much, and still have so much more to learn. I have no friends, family, co-workers, or any other relationships that have so much as a passing interest in this stuff, so I feel I have no personal outlet or anywhere else I can go to for these kinds of discussions. Keep up the good work, everyone! I'm so impressed by all of you! ;)
Thank you for this very in-depth discussion. Jesus’ impact on chaos and the conversation on Kevin’s psychology were particularly insightful. I also really like how Keith talks about the way in which games inspire real life science!
Interesting conversation and Xenosaga is still a great series!
Bridget Hoffman is my favorite underrated VA for awesome as KOS-MOS & T-elos!
Thank You for this amazing Panel
I'm catching up! I'm almost done with Replaying Xenosaga Episode 1. Playing alone with the episodes is way more fun than I expected it to be:-)
Yes! Yes! I am so excited for this conversation today! Thank you guys so much for covering this game.
It's not only the ambition of the game that is huge. This podcast tackling all these topics is ambitious on it's own. The amount of episodes of podcasts is in the 40s all analysing xenogears and saga. Tons of effort put into each one, hours of content. It's hugely appreciated how much work you guys put in. As you guys pointed out in these episode having even entry level knowledge on ALL of the different topics featured in this game is no small task. For that reason, analysis of it is deeply underexplored, which is a shame since there's so much there that people miss. Creating these episodes, inviting guests that can fill these specific niches, unifying discussion to a community together 20 years after their relavance and by responding to their comments. It's all necessary to do the game justice. You're at the forefront unparreled for game analysis with allocating this many different resourcres of efforts and thoughts all together to make a whole that no single person could ever achieve. And I think recognition for that is kind of understated. So thanks a lot.
I'd even be interested in a eventual followup podcast maybe even in a year+ possibly about xenogears and xenosaga again before Xenoblade. Specifically especially for xenosaga 3 and its relation to Nietzsche, in episode 0 of the podcast there was many things we were given to think about coming to the end of the game. But in the podcast itself it wasn't a huge discussion point, though to be fair we can't know answer to questions like why is it always the antagonists who have Nietzschian like qualities, and the conclusions the writers were making on Nietzsche. It's Just that the episode 0 thematic style tie in to the podcast finale wasn't so clean as initially expected. But the entire contents of the final episode was still excellent stuff. Really amazing episode, so much so that I want *even* more of it, but that is just greedy of me of course haha. Can't wait the that animus anima discussion in that teased Princess Mononoke podcast too.
This series of podcasts was a fantastic listen. As a long time fan of the Xenosaga games I thank you for covering them and their facets of storytelling.
Great job guys. Alot of great discussion. Keith did a great job of explaining the top level lore for the game, which ultimately doesn't matter for the personal story being told. Though knowing it makes everything less mysterious.
In my mind the way these xeno games fit together is what Keith described about the different lower domains. I think that was all explained in a database entry or somewhere in XS3, but I remember reading that thinking "oh this is the way they are going to get around this series spanning 3 companies now". There's obviously no smoking gun evidence that is the correct answer, but also in interviews they'd never admit they were forming a direct relationship to a game owned by another company. Though when you collect all the Xenogears "references" it's hard to think they were all cute cameos when they are also working toward the same story. Especially as Keith points out in the way both games end. Ultimately for the RA podcast that doesn't matter. While narrative connections are debatable, the thematic connections and the subtextual connections are evident. That these games are a long evolution of the same conversation with their shifting audience is extremely interesting. Especially since a game like XBC2 and Xenosaga 3 are courting a very different player.
Woof. Long series wrapped! Fantastic, much love and appreciation to the panel as well. Great to hear all of the differing perspectives.
Hopefully you can take a 2 or 3 game break from the Takahashi works to make sure you're mentally well rested and ready for the next one. I don't doubt your stamina and I know the blade games aren't quite as front heavy, but still.
absolutely outstanding episode and podcast overall. so happy to have been here live as you rolled these episodes out. i think this one finally convinced me that i want to take my own shot at a xeno series podcast; i'm really feeling the fire after ingesting four hours of content at once and i am very long overdue to play these games again. holidays are coming up so i expect to be busier than i'd like, but i'm really feeling like i'm gonna get it out in early 2025. i NEED to talk about these games more haha
Thanks so much for going through the Xenosaga series, I loved these, and it drove a very enjoyable replay of the trilogy for me.
Great video. Great insights. Great work. Thanks to all involved!
On the topic of people wanting to fit all these xeno games together I agree that there is no way that they cleanly fit together like puzzle pieces, but as Keith describes they are clearly all still tracking that perfect works style meta narrative. It seems clear to me that if Xenosaga kept going they would reinterpret Xenogears and in absence of that you can look to Xenogears to see where it was going. It would need to be legally distinct for obvious reasons and I think we were seeing those changes manifest in the Xs episodes we got. Also Takahashi did do pretty significant retcons to Xenoblade 1 when definitive edition came out which makes it more narratively connected to the greater series. So I think even Takahashi has evolved what it means to be a xeno game as time has gone on.
if a Xenosaga remaster ever actually happens I'll be very curious to see what (if any) retcons they actually put in and what edits they make to smooth out the experience between the three games. We've seen Monolith both do a pretty literal rerelease with Baiten Kaitos and a more overhauling rerelease with XBC1 Definitive Edition. I don't know which I'd prefer, but either way I'd really like XS3 to reappear in a form that doesn't require piracy or a second mortgage to experience.
The only retcon in definitive edition is Alvis's necklace. Otherwise there's no story changes
@@ValToadstool that's what I'm talking about. That is a pretty big retcon. If I explain all the rest it is spoiler for multiple games and we are in a xenosaga video thread.
Just read your comment @phillo and haven't yet to play Xenoblade, knowing that the definitive edition that I have on the switch pieces together the bigger narrative of the other three Xenoblade games (four including xeno on Wii U?) it's nice to see when I get around the playing them. I'm looking forward to it all.
I was one of those Xenogears fans that didn't have the best opinion of Xenosaga after it was over. What irked me a lot that all that the major plot at the end came down to another villain doing a world reset. It was something ive seen in games and anime before multiple times. This podcast series really has given me a different perspective on that, apparently eternal reoccurrence is a big Nietzsche thing, i had no idea.
Also being like 20 years older now has changed my views on things a lot. The character drama is actually really well done yeah. They really took a risk with writing Shion the way she is and now i can understand her much better. Back in the day i found the whole Shion going with Kevin thing so dumb, but now, after dealing with addiction myself, i can totally understand why she would take the easy way. The plot really hits a lot different when your older.
So yeah, thanks for this entire series, you guys have really changed my opinion on Xenosaga.
Good series. I watched an Indian movie called Kalki 2898 the other day and, while anime in general seems to be its influences, it reminded me a lot of the Xeno games in terms of setting.
Great conversation! I never thought about the emotional motivators for the villains being different in Xenogears and Xenosaga. What I find interesting about emotions is how they fit into time. Grief, trauma, regret (or lamentation, i love that distinction from David) are intrinsically rooted in the past. Fear, hope, desire (or will), are all rooted in the future. Kind of an interesting exercise to sort emotions/states of mind into a past, present, future construction. I do think more broadly, the casts of both games deal with and are motivated by all of these things.
Notes from when I was watching:
The ending scene is a reference to 2001 but it's also the inverse, where the son is below the earth, in 2001 this symbolized a sort of ascension for humanity as they left the earth while here it's the opposite, humans are returning to earth, sort of descending.
The earth having a ring around it would've made more sense if they got to go into that xenogears direction, saturn is meant to represent the demiurge and the ring can be seen as representing a cycle, which is what XG's plot revolves around. The ring is basically a sort of ouroboros.
You guys mentioned Allen's name meaning handsome, but so can Kevin's. Just kind of a funny thing.
Expanding on the christ thing, Wilhilem's mech which is a part of his being is named Joshua, referencing Jesus. It was probably intended as another way for Wilhelm to parallel chaos and maybe make him like a sort of antichrist.
I don't feel like defending everyone's enneagram clasification but I think Shion's makes sense because of her escapist nature that sort of seeks ways to avoid facing her pain fitting in with the type 7
And on the way Gears and Saga are both sort of opposites of one another, one thing I find interesting is how Gears largely focuses on the theme of how humans are fractured and can sort of complete one another. Saga then focuses largely on how people reject one another and the fear people have of assimilation with each other.
Been with you guys since the OG days with you're old channel name and just wanted to say thabk you for the content you guys provide. Much love to you all
The theory spoken of at around 2:08:00 is probably correct.
I have been doing a decade+ long meditation program that uses technology to force brainwaves into low delta (sometimes called epsilon). Over time you start creating these “sleep” waves in your waking state, just like, 20+ year Buddhist meditators do, but you do it after a couple years, and with only an hour a day of training.
The main theory about how this cause the benefits of a meditation practice is that you get brain wave coherence, and dis-integrated ideas and worldviews are forced to integrate.
And not surprisingly, almost everyone who does this and similar programs gets into IFS therapy theory.
On a related note, a famous American Zen Buddhist teacher actually started experimenting with a Zen version of IFS called “Big Mind” about 20 years ago, and it has replaced a lot of Zen and other practices in western countries. Basically, “talking and listening to” different motivations within yourself causes many of the same benefits as mediation, but faster and without having to buy into all of the religious/ritual trappings that eastern meditation come with. Though some of them are fun and/or useful. 😅
I have to say, I always thought that was the Xenogears planet at the end.
Have you guys ever considered doing Shadow Hearts? Amazing story with lots of mysticism and alt-history to delve into
Koudelka first
@@jtru8989 I for one deeply love both Koudelka and Shadow Hearts and would love to talk about these games.
@@Retromancers me too i would love to hear the conversation the games would start. Especially since they feel lost to time
A small correction on the discussion of levels of infinities from 2:03:50-2:05:40: If one is talking about cardinality (ℵ0, ℵ1...), then what distinguishes the counting numbers from the real numbers is *not* the fact that the real numbers are dense (have the property that between any two there is another). The rational numbers (of the form a/b where and b are integers) are dense and despite this, they are of the same cardinality ℵ0 as the counting numbers. This is because they can be "counted" (enumerated in a list). To see that the real numbers have cardinality higher than the real numbers, it's necessary to consider *all* possible hypothetical ways of counting the real numbers and show that *none* of these hypothetical ways of counting all real numbers exhausts all of them. There are, however other ways of defining higher levels of infinity for which the rational numbers (and dense sets of numbers more generally) show up as "larger" than the the natural numbers ( Googling "order type" gives information)
Hi Jonah! Great call and you are indeed correct. I transitioned from talking about properties through which you can analyze sets - and while density is indeed one such interesting property a set can have or not, it is actually not a property that has bearing on cardinality to which I was referring. Great catch, and I'll take care to be more precise in the future! Also, this is just another opportunity to highlight what an amazing community this is on the RA channel, with such a high level of knowledge in so many areas!
Great podcast conclusion to a great trilogy. You guys go really deep! I never thought of most of the things said in this video about the game. It's been over 10 years since the last time I played Xenosaga, but I don't remember chaos being the messiah, but a special follower of Jesus. One small detail i would like to bring is the ultimate skills of chaos in battle. When he performs the tecnique, he says things like " Bring peace to this soul" and "Bring light to these souls lost in the abyss". Episode 3 is by far the best of the series. The E.S. battles are fantastic, the character design is amazing, the story(specially the ending) is really powerful. Great stuff. Congratulations to all of you.
Love you guys!!
I cannot wait to have you guys play Xenoblade. This series is huge and blade just adds to it.
Regarding Alan, I wish Shion had battle options such as "Alan Shield" where Alan appears, and becomes a damage sponge for Shook, or maybe "Alan Charge" where Shion chews him out, and he rushes forward to attack the enemy, unarmed.
I’ve heard of a blind rage before but the idea of Fear Narrowing or in fact blinding people to creative inspirations or knowledge itself. This positions Knowledge and Fear as Antipodes very cool idea.
I'm sad this is ending, after this I'll probably start watching the Xenogears playlist again. These videos fill a place or need that other kinds of entertainment don't fill.
I dont know if its been talked about much amongst the Xeno games and their inspirations, but it sounds like Keith in his explaining of the universe(s), echoes very much of Itzhak Bentovs explanations of the universe and consciousness. Who also has influences from ancient yogic philosophy amongst others. The microcosms mirror the macrocosms or as above so below and thats how udo and the wave existence are perceiving the lower domains. Not unlike how we perceive the "lower" biological ecosystems(cells n such) that both facilitate and constitute the "higher" systems(organs, nervous system) and so on, in a gestalt type of manner...at least as best as we can perceive these concepts anyways
Great podcast once again. I was thinking of the next worthy Xeno title after this one, in terms of the theme of Human Connectiveness, and I really think its the city of New LA in X, especially the side stories and all that, characters living in a new world and getting along with each other and stuff. Tons of characters, different races and such, living in one city, and all chained to the Life Thingy that i forgot the name of
Easy way to explain Gnosis an Testaments: They're ghosts.
What a stellar discussion that expounded on the foundations of this story we all cherish. I may be in a minority here, but i suspect that i am not the only one that had their Christian faith deepened even more when given the opportunity to interact with so many philosophical and scientific ideas introduced in these trilogy of games. It is PRECISELY because of the wacky-ness of the kind of “jesus” and “mary” that Takahashi fashioned to fit to the style of his game that made me plumb the depths of the real world figure of Jesus, the Christ figure in the Bible, and the implications of a personal, conscious God.
There is so much more i would say, but i’d need to start a podcast of my own haha. Thank you guys for this long and awesome undertaking of a podcast!
(Edited to be more concise after chewing on my thoughts a bit more lol)
Unrelated but, guys, please please please do Signalis. It's perfect for you. Go in blind but knowing it takes at least three or four playthroughs. Then start investigating the symbolism, the book, the paintings, the references. The thing is a masterpiece, it's an indie game that puts AAA from the last 10 years to shame.
I would love to hear you guys talk about Tenet. So underrated.
I was never really into Xenosaga. I own all three. I played them once. Am a staunch defender that the 2nd entry is better than the first due to having more music and better combat and cutscene direction. But all this "what is actually going on" stuff with higher dimensions and Wilhelm. It's just too much. I vastly preferred Xenogears. I will never understand how anyone can have such adoration for Xenosaga Saga 1 with it's one battle theme, incredibly slow battle system, and bland settings. I think it should have been an anime. I know it was partially, but like a fully fleshed out one that covers the whole Saga.
And even though Xenogears used to be my favorite game ever, it's held up for me less on replays because of the faults of disc 2's pacing. This is why Xenoblade 1 is my favorite Xeno game. It tells a self contained story and hits on a lot of the same themes, while having likeable cast of character and just fun exploration and gameplay. As well as a killer OST.
I xant wait for the eventual Xenoblade Chronicles X remake that ties EVERYTHING together.
Plus more Black Tar
To the people saying the Xeno series can't be connected due to incongruencies:
1-) All Xenoblade games happen inside the Imaginary Number Domain and tell the origin story of the U.M.N. and how the Zohar was presumably planted in Lost Jerusalem by the Saamarians;
2-) Xenogears and Xenosaga didn't happen on the same Eternal Recurrence cycle, hence why U-DO/Wave Existence already knew how the Contact looks like (Abel).
As anyone can see, chronological or date/year differences between Xenogears/Saga does not equal incongruity and it never has, hence the XC3's DLC.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if Takahashi set up the Eternal Recurrence on purpose to both bypass copyright issues and to be able to rewrite and explore new ideas within his Perfect Works framework without at the same time invalidating his previous work. It's a clever approach that still enables story continuity and the use of central pieces like Fei/Zohar without being copyright struck for it.
He finally managed to get permission or cooperation from Bandai Namco now so the next Xenoblade will probably be bonkers.
Future Redeemed (and the entire 3 package as a whole) only succeeded in dangling a carrot in front of Saga players by dropping callbacks instead of cleverly reincorporating them into the actual plot. These callbacks (which are all of the sudden VITAL btw) will only be understood by veteran players and everyone else will only just look this shit up on wikipedia instead of dusting off a ps2. Not ideal to generate hype for those in the know and alienate the rest of the audience.
But now the question remains. If you look at saga's ending as a reincarnation into xenogears. Should you play saga first or gears first? Id say definitely saga > gears. Then maybe how it alp plays out... Blade? Great video and thanks for everyone being on and givng their insight into this amazing series. I honestly don't think there is another series quite like this one that goes into such deep topics and discussions. Or is quite as engaging as this was.
I'd say Gear then Saga because (as the boys describe on the podcast) knowing Gears' plot and themes helps you more easily understand Saga. It kinda trains you better to digest Saga's story. I think the references work either way, but Gears maybe works better coming in cold than Saga does.
That logic is only complicated because of some obsession with a "must play in chronological order" mindset, when that was never the intention. Play them in whatever order you want lol.
@@BlackHairedTidus That reminds me of the other day where my wife was saying she wanted to watch the early MCU movies again in order since she really liked them. She then signed in to Disney+ and said excitedly that they have a paylist of the movies in order.... in chronological order and not release order :(. This mentality of needing to consume things in chronological order really bugs me when each product was meant to be an independant experience and if anything release order gives you the intended context at the time of the things original release. So my opinion is chronological order is just as good as random order if you wanna stray from a release order. In no world do you read the silmarillion prior to the The Fellowship or The Hobbit for the optimal experience.
Mercury was called Quicksilver because in it's latin root it means living silver and mercury is the god of metal
Oh hey small note, at the moment, the Xenosaga 3 playlist is the wrong way around, it starts with this vid which is the end. RUclips is so dumb with these playlists. Anyway please fix this.
I know this is kinda off topic but I just wanted to comment that "childhood's end" is to me an horror book. I think the entity and the guardians are evil, what they are doing to civilizations is evil, it's genocide. The author or the characters can pretend all they want "it's a good thing!! it's the next step in evolution!!", but at the end of the day I agree with the faction that was like "GET OUT OF OUR PLANET, LEAVE US ALONE!!".
What is free will ?
You have 3h45.
Would you guys play the legend of hero’s trails games
there are like 20 of those
So which game will be covered next?
Luxin is seething
There are games that are, or are even more complex, than the Xeno games but they are all Visual Novels. I hope you all get over whatever bias that you all have against VNs. Dies Irae, Fate/Stay Night, Muv Luv Alternative, Steins;Gate, 999 & Virtues Last Reward, The House in Fata Morgana, and so many more are on the level of Xeno games but are VNs, or are Hybrid VNs.
But if you want another JRPS series to dig into, then look into the Shin Megami Tensei series. It has lot of themes, religious symbolism, and competing philosophies in the games. Just start with SMT III Nocturne or the Digital Devil Saga Duology.
Steins;Gate is dope!
Steins;Gate is awesome as an anime series, the visual novel is not as good. The series did an excelent job.
And I recommend watch only the original series, the bonus episode 25 (I think, the one where they end in the desert), and the movie. Ignore Zero.
Steins;Gate Zero is atrocious, it's awful, it was not needed and it did nothing to improve the story, it was a total disappointment.
@@pelgervampireduck I disagree about the VN being bad. It's considered one of best VNs of all time for a reason. I did prefer Chaos;Head as a VN more from the science adventure series, but I can see why Steins;Gate is held in such high regard. But you should only play the science adventure titles on PC with their corresponding Committee of Zero patch.
@@pelgervampireduck the VN is great dude, it's the anime that I didn't care about. Agree about 0 though, that was a waste of time.
Muv luv alternative is ok but you have to get through two full length games first that are horrifically borning. The payoff is not worth the investment imo.
It just occurred to me that you guys will have MASSIVE issues to sort out going into Xenoblade series. Like, how will you approach Xenoblade X now that Xenoblade 3 DLC exists? It is a logistical nightmare.
90% of XCX's content related to Xenogears/Saga/Blade is either hidden away in multiple layers of seemingly unrelated sidequests, random NPCs dialogue only available for a very brief window of time IF you picked the correct choices in previous interactions, random scenery or item descriptions or other equally obtuse ways to access the information INCLUDING mutually exclusive paths.
Reading or watching it online doesn't work for this game. As a minor spoiler example of why it doesn't work: there is an implicit commentary on how humanity gender division can influence the collective unconscious of another species, causing it to break down into detached individuality. This is evident simply by specific types of NPCs walking around at specific locations.
You can't read about this in the dialogue because it't not dialogue. You can't be sure any particular let's player will both trigger this AND walk around to see it. And you can't follow a guide for this because strictly speaking this is not a real side quest.
The entire game is like this. Even if you had the time and energy to sink hundreds of hours being as thorough as possible you would still miss a lot of the big themes and connections.
Do you guys have any plans on how to deal with this? I don't think there is a good solution to be honest and its online community did a really poor job documenting all of this stuff. Needless to say but by the time you guys reach XC3's DLC it will be impossible not to circle the discussion back into the previous games but particularly so in the case of Xenosagas and XCX.
I know Mike has already played through XCX's intro (A.K.A. the "main" story) but you didn't know about U.M.N., gallactic federation, Abel Ark and other connections hidden in XCX back then and now of course with XC3 as well.
Good luck approaching this, it won't be easy.
That's because XC3 ended up being a waste of an entry for the sake of hyping up the next installment instead. XCX gets a pass because it's independent from the rest (until Future Redeemed APPARENTLY).
My problem with the last scene with Kevin isn't that I see it as a redemption, but rather that the game frames his relationship with Shion as genuine love kept apart by circumstances, which feels really gross especially since he knew her as a child.
I don't think the age gap is really that big.
I know this is a few weeks late, but hearing Keith in 35:06 that he has the same theory(but explained in a better way) as me, because I did a video at the beggining of the year when a finished the whole trilogy of Xenoblade Chronicles + DLC and hearing him bringin' the same point is so validating, because the question that Takahashi makes, clearly resonates around the 3 series. Gears, Saga and Blade kinda prepares an "end of the universe event" and how to survive it.
But still, it was fantastic hearing someone what I was thinking.
Also, when the time comes to discuss Xenoblade, I hope that you can bring comments around the music and how it is used to complement the narrative and characters arcs to the player. Xenoblade must be discused with history and music at the same level.
Hooray
you spelled reupload wrong, literally unwatchable, ungoonable and unsubbed. :(
34:00 sad that after redoing episode 5 for the 3rd time, he's not in his right mind to tell a good story anymore
I dont think the xenosaga games are good games and I have tried giving them a fair shot multiple times. I also dont agree that the creator of xenogears should be given the benefit of the doubt in the way he approaches his stories, i always found the philosophical ties feeling cheap and on the nose and not born from a creative engagement. Love the discussion as always but i think way too much credit given to bad writing and planning.
what are you talking about? the writing is great. maybe the planning was too ambitious. I wish he could have made Xenogears episode 6 to know how it would have ended, and Xenosaga episodes 4, 5 and 6.
Amazing series on Xenosaga guys!