I used to aspire to work at a Game Dev studio, but when I looked at their Glassdoor compensation, I was totally dissuaded from it. Despite doing what I consider very difficult work like building physics simulation systems and graphics engines, Game Devs get paid peanuts compared to other software engineers. I've since chosen to focus on becoming a web developer but have game development on the side because I still feel passionate about it. Thank you for bringing the facts of this reality to a broader audience.
@@sournois90 well, you can work in backend development. You'll still need to have basic understanding of the frontend stack, but you won't actually work with it directly And even front end developers rarely do "design", usually it's a separate job. Sometimes they do, though.
As a game developer who has experienced crunch culture, being a game developer really can take a toll on you. I ended up experiencing severe burnout and had to change studios. Right now, I'm quite happy and have great working conditions - obviously I cannot speak for the women that work with me but from what I notice they seem satisfied as well. My point is: there are still good places to work as a game developer - specially in small indie studios as is my case. In addition, as a game developer you have to keep an assertive and professional attitude - don't worry no one is going to fire you (except if you are rude) and from what I have experienced people will even respect you more if you don't let them abuse your passion. Regarding working at Discord/Twitch or something similar - it is a noble idea and you are contributing to the gaming community, however making games has deeper roots in the human psychology. It is the act of creating something, expressing yourself and sharing the final product with others, which brings a lot of joy.
By your name you look Portuguese. A Portuguese living the videogame dream is rare, since we dont have much game industry here, happy for you :) Curiosity: you work in a Portuguese company you remote? (assuming the second one).I always wished it but ended up in general software jobs during day and videogame hobbies during night for lack of alternatives.
Yes it is a small industry but there are still some stubborn people like me pushing forward. I work for a portuguese studio and it's not remote :) - also not in Lisbon, despite most studios being in Lisbon.
Indeed Software eng. earns alot but mostly end up bald xD I don't like that trade so I jumped into Games as a 3d Environment Artist and TBH its good to wake up every day and work on what u like. On the other side, I did like coding and solving problems but as I cannot control my thinking capacity, it was so hard for me to stop thinking. I still prefer less salary and do what I like.
@John-PaulHunt-wy7lf There are dozens of good game studios out there and seniors in game companies are often paid pretty well, so why don't follow the passion ? You can have the both.
I heard about this while I was still applying to colleges, and decided to pursue a career in traditional software development instead of game development. Now I work a minimum wage job in an unrelated field due to intense competition for entry level software development jobs. A reminder to everyone that just because some people are getting paid a ton of money doesn't mean you'll also get paid a ton of money. Survivor bias and all that, you only hear about the Google employees making $70 per hour, but not about the hundreds of thousands of people who applied to work for Google and got rejected. Then you'll see statistics like "The average Google employee makes $85 per hour" which is technically true.
You really couldn't get any software engineering job at any company in America? This must be a you issue. I get getting rejected by a top company like Google, but not every single company would reject you.
@@chadsworthgigafuck7076 like in a lot of industries, there is the typical requirement of experience to get an entry level job. So getting in an entry level job to get experience is tough. I've been looking for a job for a few months now, i don't live in the states though, so it has to be remote. I also live in a remote area. Freelance is definitely an option, but people need money to live, and freelance doesn't pay a constant monthly check. Also someone just starting out usually doesn't know much of anything about anything, so if you want to freelance building websites for example it might take awhile to reach a marketable level unless that was your exact goal when you started out learning. You don't however need a job at a FAANG company to make it though, my guess is the OP just didn't try hard enough. There are lots of small businesses that need programmers or may be willing to take on an apprentice/internship. If you want a fucking hard time move to a 3rd world country to a remote town with 10,000 people in it and them try to start your career in software engineering.... Also minimum wages are 15USD a day, also a day of work is 12 hours.
@@chadsworthgigafuck7076 I'm in Canada, and the issue isn't a lack of jobs, it's extreme competition for the jobs. The entry level ones I applied to all had 200+ applicants each, I looked at ones in my area and remote jobs
@@UnorganizedOrganized im currently working as project manager but it only means I tell people what to do and chill my ass off. Otherwise try to get into data analytics or python programming it’s easy and pays well
I used to be that glitter eyed child who wanted to make awesome games at legendary studios, but then the harsh reality hit me and, at the end of the day, you will be way more happy doing it as an hobby or side hustle rather than as a full dev. What happens there is pure slavery.
@@xr.spedtech by whom? Most viewers are not developers so people won't know if its legit or not. Even if a developer points it out, the comment may not make it up to top even if it does it could just be deleted.
My experience in a gaming company was pretty unfulfilling. Everything was being done in the name of profits, increasing addiction and corporate politics and very little in terms of actual coding quality or user experience. It resembled more to working in the banking system than anything else. Only paid way less and treated like dirt for reasons I couldn't even comprehend. The only perk I enjoyed was being able to play games all day long because I had finished my tasks early. Of course, it only takes one prickly manager to notice and it's over and besides it does nothing for your personal development.
I bet the company also was making mobile games, trying to be trendy pretending it was the year 2006, the iOS store was fresh and new and hip, and they were all about 'monetization'. 🤦♂
@@astrahcat1212 well the mobile game industry makes more revenue than all the other game platforms combined so it’s not like they were taking the wrong path in making money. Though I understand why developers would hate it
I am a pro. game-dev since 2008. However most of the years I worked as a freelancer. The thing is that I have realized years ago that I am stuck in this industry. I like my work, it's literally my child dream come true, but I am definitely stuck. The good thing is that I live in eastern Europe and with my salary I can live here decently. I am turning 40 this summer so this is my life, past and future. The main thing is that you can find anything if you keep looking for long enough ..
Are you working remotely? Im currently in the process of moving back home to Eastern Europe, while keeping my remote game design job. Its not even amazing pay, but its still way above the average wage back home..I also have no other way of living :D
Very similar creeping feeling here tbh. Gonna be stuck in this industry. It’s what I want to do, but there is this melancholic feeling that comes with it.
I’m a carpenter in Kentucky and make 61k a year. I’m in good shape, 44 years old and happy. Working with your hands no matter what you do is satisfying. I wish you all the happiness I have found…
This is horrendously common in creative industries. You think this is bad, try see the Japanese animator industry. It's so bad some have to have a second job so that they can support themselves living as an animator. Considering how many abuses the movie industry also have had, it seems to be a pattern any creative industry where the people involved are generally passionate and that passion keeps them wanting to work in the industry which makes them easy to use and abuse.
well dont become an animator there then. doesnt contribute much to society, often in bad ways. I also don't get paid to play games in my free time so I need another job to support myself. how sad it truly is, I am very abused
@@asimplelamp what do people make money off livestreaming? playing games. what is that? entertainment. Same as video games, entertainment. It's not the same, I never said it was, but of course it's very comparable and none bring much benefit to society, just entertainment.
@@user-wq9mw2xz3j Developping games or animating is absolutely not the same as livestreaming, nor is it comparable. And if you think entertainement doesn't benefit society, then you're a very sad person.
I worked for Ubisoft for six years, and I approve this video. 1 year before leaving the company I even prepared and showed the HR and my manager some slides comparing the work condition, competitive edges, and compensation, showing them the huge and disprpotional gap in compensation compared to the peers (mine was 1/3 of the average of the market!). I warned them people will eventually walk out. And people walked out, to the point of HR crisis and projects going on hold. I worked on difficult physics problems, which was my passion. So I exactly get it when I hear "feeling trapped", because I wanted to keep doing what I loved. I did not mind working for 13 14 hours a day, even weekends, because it was my passion, and I would do it even if I had 10 million dollars in the bank. I think these companies are well aware of the "passion" factor, and are not shy to take advantage of it.
That is terrible, and I feel sorry you had to go through that. I hope you understand your worth now and can negotiate good wages with different studios. I know a lot of the west coast ones are offering $100k+ for various engineering positions even if adjusted for your working remotely location.
@@ls.c.5682 thanks for the comment mate. Most people working in the game and VFX industries are sort of trapped in terms of the type of skills they develope. It is a known problem that once you spend some years in these industries, you find it extremely hard to break the cycle, not because you do not want to, but because the hiring tech companies are generally less interested in our game and VFX resume, with some exceptions. Anyways I got lucky to find a job at Nvidia, which has been great so far.
For people who think this is unfair, and all game devs are underpaid, not all game studios pay the same. Niantic, Roblox & Riot games pays their engineers extremely well. In fact, higher than all of FAANG for some levels. At the same time, FAANG companies only constitute the top 1% of the software industry. There are lots & lots of software companies that pay in the same range as the studios mentioned in the video.
It's a perspective problem. It'slike wondering why some people are so bad at running 100m in less than 10 seconds when it's only the top of the top that manages to do it and that "poor" performance doesn't only concern some people but most people.
I think the issue is that most people assume you have to work for these game supergiants, like, bro, go work for an indie company, the environment is way calmer, and the pay is probably on par, or better, than the giants
Ah yes, a small select group does something (semi-)correctly and all is good in the world. Problem is this issue is persistent throughout the industry, and many others, no matter how many "good apples" there are.
problem is, there's little passion involved around those studios. Roblox isn't even game development, it's game engine development. When there's a lack of passion, only then do the working conditions increase.
I worked at Ubisoft for a couple of years (as a senior and then expert programmer), BY FAR the worst work experience I ever had. Producers abuse being reported by lots of people and HR and Management just hiding things and enableing abusers
@@Kuchen90000 no, but it wasn't that important, I was working at the Helsinki/Finland studio... But what you mention I hear is a constant problem for foreign people going to work for Ubisoft in france
@@DiegoSarmentero I heard a lot that Ubisoft is the worst place to work and as I know they pay much lower than other, I got an offer to work in the Paris office for 50k euros/year gross, this is ridiculously small amount of money in such expensive city, the funny part is - my current wage in Eastern Europe even higher ) So, now when I see Ubisoft - I just skip it every time.
@@pamparam3495 yap, I think Ubisoft paying way less money than other companies (not mentioning the abuse, etc) is common practice in most ubisoft studios, it was the same here in Helsinki
Feel like your best bet is to land jobs that give you "grunt" work experience, leadership experience, and enough time to have a life beyond work. Then use that free time to make an indie game that pops off lol, like Scott Cawthon with FNAF, which then gives you the resources to really expand into a company and make bigger and bigger games. Or you can look at Marko Grgurovič, lead dev and father of Mordhau who had no prior game dev experience, and have a PhD level of CS knowledge that allows you to code an incredibly tight game system and netcode, then use this knowledge to fill in a niche but very existent demand in the market (which was a proper Chivalry: Medieval Warfare sequel). Chances are you are part of that niche demand if you're bothering to go down this path as well; passion and interest help a lot in entrepreneurship. Filling in demands and customer pain points is basically entrepreneurship in a nutshell. Basically, I'm dissuading you from getting into game development unless you're at the helm in some fashion lol
Very interesting video. I worked as a Data Engineer at Ubisoft for many years, and your video is partially true. Yes, salary are generally below of the FAANG companies. Yes, people are often driven by the passion. And, of course, software engineer in gaming industry should have DECENT SALARY ! But, you forget to mention something, people who work at FAANG and gaming industry are very different. Software engineer at FAANG are driven are salary, technical sophistication and prestige. People in gaming aren't the same purpose in their work, they are less ambitious (and it's not a bad thing) and more driven by the passion (as you say in the video), and of course, the prestige. These two kinds of people are VERY different. Very few people at Ubisoft, EA, Riot or Rockstar want to work in a FAANG companies, even with a enormous salary. It's just not the same philosophy at work. In the gaming industry, DS&A inteviews is not a standard. You can have it, but it's not required. In the tech industry, software engineer is a "Portmanteau word", but often, after few years (3/5 years), you're going to specialize you in a branch (webdev/ML/data/cloud/devops etc...), and video games is branch, but yes, it's one of the less profitable path. In the video game industry, you have MANY jobs not related to building games, such as software engineer web, data scientist, data engineer, cloud engineer and so on. Those jobs are very standard, and you can find same position in FAANG. So, you can go from games industry to FAANG without problem (assuming you are strong enough and DS&A). Last thing, making/building are video games is very complex, and FAANG companies (and engineers) underestimate the complexity of creation a GOOD games. So far, Facebook/Amazon/Google/Netflix (except Microsoft) don't catch the recipe, and they are more concerned with masking the fear and deep anxieties that their application creates in their users. Difficult to sell video games with such reputations.
The harsh work hours were true 5-10-15 years ago. It is a lot more civilized now (in most of USA and Europe, Asia is a different animal). Overtime is much reduced. Yes, there are still some places which do overtime (CD Projekt RED), but even there it much less than before and on a downward trend. The lower pay is true. As a game dev, I can perhaps double my salary in a different place (at the very least increase by 50%). But in life you have to balance enjoyment. I've worked in accounting software, and as long as I can afford tap water and bread, I'm not going back. I like what I do - the daily tasks and the end product. Sure, I can make more, but the money is enough. And more money may give me more enjoyment after work, but are not worth suffering more at work. If you live in a hyper-expensive city, a six-digit salary may not be enough to make ends meet, but in a cheaper place a game dev salary is enough to live well. With remote work you can live cheap and work for almost any company. That being said, the comparison between Ubisoft and Google is not very fair. Ubisoft and game studios in general are much more open to new graduates and people without experience. Google is much more stringent with hiring, so it takes a lot of experience and/or incredible talent to start there. A junior at Google may well be mid or senior in other places. A common complaint is that almost everyone there is overqualified for the tasks they do. About the last part - few women are interested in programming. There've worked with some, and they were very good programmers, but most women in game dev are in the art department. I see more coming into producing in the last few years, which is nice.
I dreamed of becoming a game developer as a kid, I drowned myself in videogames to escape the reality I lived it. Once I heard about the culture of game dev studios, I immediately pivoted to wanting to take a more traditional route and build an indie game as a hobby. Still studying and taking it a step at a time, hopefully I can build a game and release it one day for others to enjoy!
This is why despite studying a uni degree aimed towards game development I'm avoiding working in the games industry and instead aim to stick with it as a hobby.
@@BakangPrivv got a First-Class Honours BSc in a course called Games Computing at the University of Lincoln, UK. 1st and 2nd year were about 80% CS and 20% Games, 3rd year I pretty much chose as many "normal" CS modules as I could
@@BakangPrivv Yeah, it has come up in every interview I've had since. Gets old having to explain that I like making games but the industry itself sucks
@@Sweenus987 what about a dual degree in gaming computing and CS? The Game Computing degree might hamstring you for future job prospects and career growth
@@the-fantabulous-g As far as I know you can't study for a dual degree, at least not at the uni I went to. Otherwise, if you did one you would likely be better off doing a master's degree related to the other rather than have 2 separate BSc degrees.
@@Sweenus987 Fair enough- is it too late to switch to a CS degree in its entirety then? If you don't mind not getting a Games Computing title as your degree, I still think the CS bachelors degree might open more doors or tick off the right HR boxes. Something as food for thought though, since I'm very much an internet stranger with no idea of your own life goals and wants. Worth having a grain of salt about, and definitely worth having discussions with mates and mentors about too.
@@theowillis6870 As a game developer, I barely touch math. If you're not planning on making your own game engine, you'll be good with basic trig and algebra.
Wow...I found the compensation part of this video really surprising and quite an eye opener. Never quite thought of things this way when it comes to hiring/paying IT talent (guess I've been a bit naive). I've been working as a developer and systems-analyst for over 20 years now (yep I'm old!). My experience has almost entirely been within the legacy/mainframe space (I know, I know - mainframe is "boring" when compared to web, mobile, or game development 😉). Anyways - even though my company is not a cutting edge technology firm, our starting salaries within the IT dept are in the 70 to 80K range for new graduates which I guess falls in line with this video's premise that companies that do more routine/"non-exciting" IT work need to pay more to get new graduates to join. However, until watching this video, I've just always assumed that cutting edge / silicon-valley-style IT companies must all be paying really high salaries in order to bring in the kind of top talent needed for that kind of work. It doesn't surprise me that work hours at a company like EA are grueling ....but I am really shocked at the kind of compensation (or lack thereof) that these developers are getting. That is really depressing....I can only assume that these companies must have a lot of burnout!
has to do with supply and demand. activision can afford to give their QA testers starvation wages because the mind set is ONE DAY ill get noticed and get a full time position. take advantage while theyre still young and gullible basically. problem is, the availability of those full time spots are incredibly rare and the supply of people wanting to make their careers playing video games vastly outpaces it. back in early 2000, i believe it was, a bunch of spouses from developers working at EA sent a letter to the CEO demanding to be able to see their loved ones again. as if they were off on some deployment a mile away from their homes. Nautey Dog CEO considers 100 hour work weeks as a standard TO THIS DAY. they have a vastly low retention rate. Bioware with mental health issues. list goes on. the supply never stops spewing out though.
@@sammavrs Yikes!! 100 hr work weeks as "standard" 😳....On my team - in the weeks approaching an implementation weekend - it is sometimes necessary to put in extra hours (eg 10 to 12hr days)...but this is usually for a short period of time, usually limited to the last two or three weeks prior to a major impl. weekend.....After that, work tends to return to normal / 8hr days for months (or longer) as design/dev efforts move forward with the next scheduled project/change (and this cycle - i.e. long stretches of normal/regular days followed by 2 or 3 weeks of longer hours - repeats over and over) .....I've never been in a situation where I've had to put in a 100 hr work week as a regular "standard" for week after week / month after month! ....I imagine that under those kinds of working hours, it must also be difficult maintaining the needed mental focus for the kinds of programming associated with developing a high-end game!....Like I said above, mainframe application design/development is not the most exciting lol!.....but I will definitely take it over the kinds of stress a developer of a high-end game must have to go thru on a regular basis!...They really must have a passion for that work to put up with it those hours...but it's nuts that they are not compensated fairly....especially since without all that work the company would have no product in the first place...
Long ago, I wanted to be a game developer as a career. But, in hearing about all of the competition, underpayment and horror stories on how game developers are treated; I instead stayed an Indie developer and as a job, I drive a bus. I'm bus driving and the pay is decent and my field is severely UNDERSATURTED and understaffed. All kinds of companies are struggling to find bus drivers and truck drivers. And due to the understaffing, I can keep a nice and easy job with benefits and still work on my games between the 5 hour break I get each day. So, if anybody is worried about finding a stable job. Just get CDL and you won't have to worry about finding a job anymore. You'll have trillions of jobs to choose from and you can still make games.
"Bus driver by day, video games developer by night!" I loved it :-). I knew one security guard in some building in nightshifts i think... Instead of patrolling around he would sit behind his desk and make various maps for Half Life 2 :-))...
Try to avoid passion when choosing a job. Focus on the Money/effort. Honestly I'm not surprised this industry doesn't have women. Same reason I'm not surprised women don't occupy sewer/lumber/fishing/combat roles. Too much work, too dangerous, not enough pay. Working 13 hrs a day for weeks is dangerous. Men should take lessons from women in this regard. You just get into a position that you get exploited to all hell.
Bad video, most of it misses the mark by a lot. The main problem in video games is that the amount of money has attracted the most unsavory of finance sharks, all the way back in the 90s. AAA gaming is now riddled with them and they are openly destroying, I'm sorry "optimising", games for money. The dev abuse and predatory financial models are rife and growing since over 20 years. This system of dev abuse isn't a question of "passion", that's the meme these sharks want to sell. "You're passionate, so you can work much more" is an obvious straw man argument. The REAL problem is that videogames still attract an extremely large amount of newbies every year. People enter games development for the luster of it, and quickly get trapped into absurd hours with a company culture that is thoroughly about gaslighting and free overtime. If they leave, they get replaced within a few weeks at most. Worse, this situation with a massive turnover (I recall a number of 70% of beginners quitting video games within 3 years, that's not quitting their company, it's quitting game dev as a whole) has spurred this atrocious culture of "survival" where if you tolerate the 100 workweek and absurd work conditions, it's because you're "strong enough". This entirely toxic culture is spread throughout all game dev, and if you simply say "my last job paid me 50% more for 40 hours and you're asking me to work 90+ hours", the response is sure to be a different way of saying "oh well, I guess you're just not good enough to be with us, you're not one of the big boys". This culture is omnipresent and spreads throughout another aspect of big shark bean counting: contractors. Most games actually do not need large creative groups. You need TONS of people working on it, but they don't have to be creative, they just need a general guideline and art direction. In AAA you have a core of 10% of devs and management that actually run the show and 90% of artists and devs that are just sent tickets and emails and do the job with little to no creativity. The Sharks have been working as hard as possible to externalise these people as contractors since forever. Those that aren't contractors aren't treated much better, and it's not rare to hear of 70/80% of a dev team being laid off at the end of a project. If you're surprised to hear about these massive layoffs, don't be: the games industry is not only extremely toxic with its employees, but it also makes it very clear that if you want to work there again, you better not make a sound about your work conditions, so everyone learned to lower their head and take it. If you want a *real* good example of what I'm saying, look up Mick Gordon's statement about how Id Software treated him and Bethesda/Zenimax along with it. medium.com/@mickgordon/my-full-statement-regarding-doom-eternal-5f98266b27ce It is an extremely good read and shows all the reality of this vile industry. Gaslighting for years, stressing your contractors out, shifting blame, contract breaking, backstabbing, and management always getting away with it at the expense of devs and players. And Mick Gordon is quite famous for his work, imagine the conditions for some no-names. Passion? Discrimination? That's total drivel, your video is absolutely out of touch.
this what I felt should be pointed out, but I guess the video is targeted for clearly people who still don't know the industry or care in the thin surface layer.
I've worked as a traditional software developer/web developer for about 15 years. It's a great career path with tons of options. I've always wanted to work as a game developer or be involved in the industry somehow, but I know basically everything in this video is accurate. I end up repeatedly deciding it's not worth it to give up a cushy career path doing something that's still "interesting/valuable" to slave away at an abusive job for way less pay just for the sake of passion. I have learned some game development as a hobby - it's extremely difficult and just makes me admire (and feel bad for) people in that role even more.
I am a game developer but i have always dabbled into everything else and have deep understanding of them. i do mobile app development and i integrate with platforms like aws, azure and Digital Ocean. I have worked in Game Studios and Enterprise solutions companies.
@@mracipayam I think its possible to learn game development and transition to other forms of programming later but i will not advice anyone to go that route if you get what i mean. My advice will be try out everything and see how you can incorporate everything together. That way you stay up to date with the trend in both game development space and the enterprise solution technologies.
I'm studying Game Programming at University and is way more fun and interesting than CS(I was a CS student and quit for Game Programming), also the people studying are more kind and fun than the average CS student(a lot of people dont like the field and are in only for the money, in Game Programming most people are really passionate), we often work together with art degree students and Is a very sociable ambient, very good for our softskills, also I'm studying at Apple Developer Academy and learning Swift, iOS dev is my plan B If the games path goes wrong.
My little brother is studying to become a game developer but in his class of 30 there is 1 girl so I really do not understand why riot games would need 20% girls in there leadership. it’s stupid that makes women have far more chance at having a good position then men that would need to work even harder for that role now.
That is pretty dumb. I hate when they have stupid quotas for things like. The numbers aren't even possible in certain industries. That means that they're hiring useless people (in this case it's women who have no passion or knowledge of games) who just make other women who actually know what they're doing look bad. It's just stupid all around; most of those men in "leadership" positions don't even know what they're doing either but have the nerve to criticize the women who get hired on a diversity quota. Stupid.
@@wombot2188 That's probably just cancel culture again. But, I agree with @Eliouz to a degree, as long as it's not overboard, but there are other ways to promote and encourage women to get into game development. On the other hand, you can encourage through promotion and all that, but at the end of the day, if women don't want to be in the field they just don't and that's alright too. No need to buck the current of nature.
Just because there aren't any women doesn't mean discrimination played a role in it. I don't know why that's so hard for people to understand. Not talking about Riot Games, just in general.
Its better to be an indie game developer with a small community . Working for these giant game companies doesnt have the same amount of enjoyment/dedication.
@@MafiaSniper It depends a lot on your situation tbh. If you have a lot of responsibilities and very little free time then you obviously cant go indie. But if you have absolutely nothing else to do, indie can be very profitable if done right. I dont want this to be too long to read, so i ended up cutting a lot of corners, despite the text wall ahead lol. Basically, dont lose time spending years working in a single project. When you release your game, it might be a flop and people wont buy it. Work on an idea for some time, at most a month, release it, and if it flops learn from it, see what failed and make a new game right away. If it is successful, keep working on it to make your playerbase grow, add content that you can profit from. Simple as that. Also, To increase your likelyhood of making a game that is relatively successful, focus on the eyecandy. People will play something that looks and feels good. Mechanically, you might have a very simple game, but if you make it visually pleasing, you instantly have a far better product. Dont think hyper realism or anything like that, focus on simple and good looking graphics that are easy to produce so you dont waste a lot of time on each asset. Think about this: you always hear of big indie games that make tons of money like minecraft, undertale, hollow knight, stuff like that. But it is obvious that you wont be making a giant hit game in your first attempt. You'll have to iterate a lot till something successful happens. For example, look at the unreal engine. Epic games started as an "indie" team of devs making 2d platformers that were trash like jill of the jungle. Then after many games, one day they made the game "Unreal" and it was a total success, and they kept working on it, and the engine, because that was the most successful product they made. What im saying is you have to focus on building very simple games that you can finish in a short amount of time, something that you can work on for like a month and then release it for some cash and start gaining from it. If your game flops, it doesnt matter, you didnt spend years on it, so you quickly move on to the next iteration, making a new game and learning from what failed in your previous release. Eventually, you will release a game that will be successful enough to make you profits. Thats the kind of games that you should keep updating and try to make the community around it grow somehow by releasing new content from time to time. Just keep releasing stuff, no matter how small it is. Your objective right now is to make cash, because you're in a bad situation, right? So dont try to focus on making some hit game that takes inspiration from all the cool successful indie titles out there. Just do something that takes a month at most to make and that is fun and simple to play. There's always someone who will buy your game. Also I recommend checking r/gamedev subreddit and look at all the indie devs who put a lot of work into their games for years and failed at launch. There's always some good posts explaining how to properly market your game when you release it. Anyways, i hope this rushed and half baked comment can sort of help you. Kinda.
@@AlFredo-sx2yy Thank you so much for a detailed answer. Fortunately, that's what I have started to do. Making small games and getting them out in the market. I have some time to experiment, so hopefully I'll get some success. Thankfully, no one is dependent on my earnings, it's just me. Again, I really appreciate your reply. I hope you have a nice day.
Glad you covered this, the headlines of abuse and crunch are really tiring, especially when it's from the games we love. Knowing you enjoy something that someone else is sacrificing their own mental health and family time just because the execs push them to isn't fun
Thanks for this video. As a person working in tech audit I heard plenty of those game dev stories but always wondered "why won't they just switch the industry" Your film pretty much answered my question
Game developers have the same problem as teachers (in the US, at least). They do the job because they are passionate about it, and employers take cruel advantage of it, and underpay.
School teachers are mostly provided by the state government or local government in the US, what did you expect State and local governments are known for paying low and giving a low budget to schools so in return they compensate them with really good benefits
I'm starting up an indie game as I felt like it was the best choice rather than join something existing. I'm a rather slow but hard-working perfectionist dev and if I would be given a short deadline by one of these massive companies I might fail or just end up rushing it. The pay doesn't even seem worth it, so I wanted to work with something I can more personally have a passion in without having to think about money. Like yes a game needs money, but I'm not gonna be greedy about it. I believe passion is the best ingredient for a good game!
@@albertosalash.3834 We did plan on using Godot actually. But with everyone rather inexperienced on it, and too little 3D game tutorials, we just kept stomping on the same place with it. Sooo, couple months ago I decided to go with Unreal, as my programmer is way more experienced in it as well. He teached me a bit about how it worked too and I think, well.. There's a lot of stuff everywhere lmao I believe that is the best choice for us though, and Unity haven't even been on my radar at all so it was either this or that. I think we'll do really well with Unreals new stuff though so I think its a good pick. Also, since Unity sort of went on a money greedy mood not too long ago, I would watch out investing in it in case they do another oopsie. So pick your game engine wisely, try to wager all your options! 👍
Some of the best paying software work is mind numbingly boring and also difficult needing advanced mathematical skills, for example distributed server code or financial/accounting backends. I would almost always choose a job creating something cool for $150k/year over boring number crunching for $300k/year. I guess game companies know this and use it to squeeze developer salaries.
I don't think it's "fun" either though. You're creating a game according to someone else's instructions, deadlines, etc. You're not creating a game for yourself or your team and then "giving it to the world" like art. It's still just a product, because of how capitalism works.
I am a third year middle school student. I wanted to become a game developer after watching the w.o.w game cinematic, the grandeur and the thrill that deeply etched in my heart. Action-adventure games are currently in vogue, but later, when I grow up, I had a dream to create a world where the world is crazy about rpg. However, after watching this video, I realized that it is very different from what I want to be as a game developer. As a game developer, I want to be a game developer who not only makes good games, but also wants to receive a reasonable salary. Is it really impossible to succeed as a game developer?
I am in school for gamedev right now, and there are paths or specialisations that you can do that will have better job garentee or better pay. It's not easy but there are ways
If all u care about is your passion, go for it. Otherwise, don't. I'm about to graduate from game dev school and while it is fun, it definitely isn't the most profitable. It's even harder to do when I started losing my passion for it. Even now, my plans for the future has changed and it has little to do with game development. It's also true that you are worked to the bone, while you can do other simpler things and earn equally/more.
@@abigailpf9835yeah finally thank you for saying facts I hate when people say doctors are the most stressful job and glorify computer engineers and game engineers when they work so much more stressful jobs like the saying goes “the grass is always greener on the other side”
Biggest tip ever... The whole world is very very very very very very VISUALLY superficial. People buy shiney things, things that look good the second they look at it. A game developer is in large part a graphics programmer. Learn shader programming very well, that's a good step, get a website and make the 'front end' of your business look very HD, shiney, sharp, very brightly lit.
I worked as a software engineer in the gaming industry in the UK for 10 years between 1994 and 2004, and can confirm that the hours can get ridiculous near launch. I remember once working all day Sunday and all night that Sunday evening. We were basically passing out on our desks when other people were turning up for work Monday morning, no overtime paid but we did get a bonus. Glad I got out to be honest but it's not all bad - it is fun and challenging but you probably won't get rich...nowhere near rich. Developers, though, usually go into the games industry driven by passion, not money.
When I graduated, I had a choice between game dev and embedded software developer. 3 years later, I worked at Apple making 3x the money than a game dev.
I work as a game developper and I 100% agree with your amazing video. I'm no employee, but freelance (which is even worse). I'm so grateful to this video. Talking publically about our working conditions is so important. Thanks so much :)
These companies for the most part are for profit so they aren’t going to be profit sharing anything while it may be a good thing though only the executives profit share and the rest is used for new projects
I am currently pursuing to become a Game Developer, your video is pretty good and all points you said are True But still I believe there are some companies who pays well and care about there Devs only time will tell if I am wrong or not but I would definitely try to shift the job before getting trapped and although in Game Industry chances of this are High as many big studios face this, getting a good paying job in Software Engineering isn't easy either. Life isn't easy So ig it's just matter of choice that you either Word Hard for your Dream Job or Work Hard due to your Dream Job
Whether unionized or not, there is a maximum legal time limit as to the maximum number of hours you can work where I live. My father (and his crew) had reached that limit so they were forced to take two days off. Ticked him off a bit as the plan was to work the month and a half, 16 hour days (food was provided) with only three days off in there and that would have been his year (being paid triple time). So those two days were more like 12 days.
I make 100k at a financial company as a Jr DevOps Engineer. I’m a jr and have solid work-life balance, 5 weeks off, am treated with respect, and have a manager that goes up to bat. There is no way I’d EVER work in the game industry.
I remember back in university, I had a comp sci professor that warned us all against going into game design for all of these reasons listed out. I always remember he was like “so, I know that 80% of you guys chose computer science because you wanted to make video games. Well, because of that, the market is is very over saturated with video game programmers.”
We have a lot of trouble finding good candidates, actually. There's big referral bonuses of $8k being offered to anyone at my studio who finds a decent coding candidate who interviews successfully and takes the role.
This was my dream job as a kid (I'm 40+). My grandfather told me programmers will be the slaves of next generation. :D (considering this was in the '90s when computers were very rare here he was very prescient). I became sthing else completely.
Programming is becoming more and more flooded, it's a waste if it's not your greatest passion. I analysed becoming one, but the cons were overlapping the pros
@Kadir In my university there's a new Major called Digital Influence, they teach you how to monetize in social media, video editing, how to viralize in TikTok, streaming platforms like twitch, gaming, beauty, how to speak well, audio, photography, etc I almost did this because influencers are the new cool kids but I'm studying Game Dev
Still a lot of information left on the table... But I've spent the past 4 yrs learning UE4 now 5. I've learned 2 things I reflect on almost daily. 1. The average gamer has no idea the work that goes into game dev. 2. I know I personally still have loads more to learn. That said this is exactly the type of content I'd love to see more of. Because efforts like this are important. They shed light on the perceived mysteries surrounding game dev. Thanks for taking the time to put this together. Have a good one & take care
game dev is not play like Masahiro Sakurai said, its a job pays low for huge amount of effort you put in, as a game dev I can evolve my skills to less complex but high paying skills, and trust me when there a lot of problems like bugs and marketing comes you won't enjoy it.
I remember talking to an HM in a renowned gaming enterprise about the comp range. It was way below my expectation, and the only justification he could give me was he sacrificed comp himself for doing something he was passionate about and that he was lucky to have a supportive partner. Hard pass.
So true; I was a major in animation and game development and all, and I had even gotten a job in that field. I can surely say that the work is just so much harder than normal Web development or normal programming in general, but it also pays way less. All you have is your passion, which also starts to decrease as you start to know that you aren't making the creative decisions, but someone else does, and you are nothing but a machine.
I guess it would be like how people who work in factories making crisps (chips in the US) all day, every day, no longer want to eat them or be around them because that's basically the majority of what their day is. I would assume being a game developer for a big-ish company is similar to that.
Luckily, I had an university assignment for creating a VR game involving biometric interfaces. Since both me and my partner had ultrabooks with low-end videocards (they were pretty ok for compiling C++/Rust code and running heavy IDEs though), we had big troubles with working on the models and testing it, so that on final testing I had roughly 5 fps with parts of the body being took apart on moving. Moreover, at the very end I couldn't even compile the lights because UE4 just crashed all the time. Plus extremely tight deadlines before automatic system would make our semester failed. That was a complete nightmare (though quite fun) compared to what I did at the normal job (yes, I also had a fulltime job at the same time) - the most pushy thing I had was to urgently support some API for one platform, and sometimes to fix the crashes (due to my mistake) when normal people would prepare for sleep.
An an Indie developer I feel really bad about this whole situation. I put in alot of hours into my projects, I just feel the labour union need to do more to curb all these issues facing the game industry. This is not encouraging at all. I am not looking to work for any AAA in the fututre.
It pains me, I'm a new grad from Digipen and I really do like making games. And I know, oh I absolutely know the life that awaits me. Hell I got a job right out of school at a "start up" company, did get told to leave after a month because I lack passion(bs), and I saw that it was profit chasing and very long hours, when I was home I was expected to be in an online meeting for 3ish hours to meet with the asia team. But...I want to believe it's not as bad, I'll take being called naive and all but I really do like making games, I'd just hope I would be able to make it a living and this is besides just trying to get in.
Well your video sure hit my pain point. Actually, depending on what you do, modern game development has plenty of overlap with traditional software engineering, I design databases, i handle software security, I do my contiguous integration and delivery pipelines, and sometimes we use aws, azure and other cloud services. You are right in the sense though that the more senior you get the harder it is to escape because while I dabbles in all of the above, they are only auxiliary functions I need to build to deliver my game. I don't really innovate on those processes nor do I improve them beyond industry standards as long as it satisfies users expectation for the most part. Due to increasing awareness on the subject for the most part we get paid a somewhat living wage at least, but boy is the passion tax real, and game development is HARD, it's different, but not any easier. I get questions like why don't you just quit the industry all the time. The truth is, i probably could, and I get a fat increment if I do, the sinister part of the passion trap is that you know this and you hang on for your passion as long as work condition and compensation is not literally living hell.
One clarification on Ubisoft vs Google. I think that particular example may be a little misleading. Software Engineering wages in the US are much higher than in any other country, in general. Also, most Google Engineer positions are in California which has a very high cost of living. With the $170,000 you would live reasonably comfortably but with little margin for luxury. In general, though, videogame developers do earn less than some other types of developers, mostly because the amount of people wanting to work in the videogame industry is much more than the available places to do it.
Love it--when I was a kid, the video game industry was worth less than 30 billion dollars. Today, its over 200 billion dollar market. All the money went where? Investors? CEOs? Wild
While the general point being made is 100% correct, constantly comparing salaries to Google is ridiculous. Google over pays for talent and their salaries are on the extreme side of generous. Game devs tend to make 20-30k less than they could be making, not 120k less.
Thank you very much for talking about this, an average game developer is much more talented than recently fired "engineers" from Twitter. I respect the fact that the field is filled with passionate people but it's really sad to see them getting screwed over.
They should honestly consider unionizing. If enough engineers at one of these companies got together to fight for better working conditions and higher pay, threatening to go on strike if no improvements were made, they'd have significant leverage over company. You could argue that the companies could just fire all of the employees trying to unionize and just rehire, but this is incredibly expensive and if the timing was right, such as a few weeks before a major release, this wouldn't be feasible. If entry-level Starbucks employees can do it, so can experienced software engineers.
That wouldn't work as they would just simply hire people from other countries while paying slightly less to people in other countries to make the jobs seem amazing in comparison. The major companies would also win as it would be cheaper overall to make games as a result, which only means they would make more money. If they don't do that, they could just delay all of their games and get new hires up to speed to be able to support any new game. They could then make lesser demanding games and sell it as "listening to gamers" by making smaller but higher quality games without all the trash that they hate. If successful then gamers would likely not care about the developers that had been fired for wanting to unionise, as with how it seems like developers actively hate their consumer base and no longer care about making good games, gamers wont care about such people losing their jobs when their replacements seem to be releasing good and fun games without any bloat.
I am studying game making. I know about the salary ways long before I study about game making. I can only say to those who complain about their salary is “be realistic man”. Those FAANG make ENORMOUS profit EVERY YEARS. So, instead of wishing your salary to increase, find the solution to increase the profit. The game making process is a mess. An 3A game spent 3-10 years to make to only earn no more than $2B. And that is when your game is good. If your company cannot make enough profit, ok, it’s time to say bye bye.
Also who's to say there isn't a gigantic financial crash and the FAANG stocks go way to zero, basically firing off like 80% of their employees before collapsing, then some other industry like AI instead takes over with newer AI companies paying way way way more. It's just where the establishment is investing their money. I'd really get into programming AI these days if someone's after a decent life and decent money working for the man these days.
I'm torn by this; you can either work in a soulless big-tech company for more money, or work a lower salary for a game dev, doing stuff you are genuinely passionate about. It's a tough call; you either have to feed your stomach or your soul.
What do you expect? Small developers are being outperformed by big companies that have thousands of developers on the job. It’s not even worth being a small developer because even if your game is good, your going to have to update the game daily to keep player’s interested and that’s not really possible when your the only one working on it.
The tech industry can be challenging for those just starting out, as job postings labeled as "entry-level" often require a wide range of skills and experience, and pay may not reflect the level of skill required. This is particularly true for data analyst positions, which often require a combination of skills such as Data science,Data engineering, Full stack developer, Dev-ops, and Cloud architecture. Additionally, the competitive and fast-paced nature of the tech industry can lead to a toxic work environment.This can make it difficult for many tech workers to thrive, and it's frustrating when companies list irrelevant or unnecessary skills in job postings, which is just stupid. Like if company was going to make a job posting for a taxi driver in Los Angeles driving a Toyota Camry . The requirements would basically be - A Formula 1 World Championship - A NASCAR Cup Series A World Touring Car Cup - Experince in driving 500+ cars and trucks. - Knowlege of all driving laws and regulation in every state -Knowlege of driving 18 wheeler trucks. -Can speak several languages perficently -Know every street name in California by heart. -Bachelor degree but master or phd perfered -Reverse a linked list "Entry Level Taxi Driver" Pay: 15-27 hr(AKA 15 an hour which is minium wage) No benifits at all.
I've been in the game industry and also in the "regular" software engineering industry for a combined total of 17 years, in Italy. I don't see all the difference that you guys have in the US. The game industry pays a bit less on average, but that's basically the only downside that I can speak of. Those who work for more profitable industries, like financial, banking, energy, etc... make usually a bit more but they sometimes do a lot of crunch to stay competitive and take all the bonuses they can, while in the gaming industry I've seen much less crunching and a more relaxed and less competitive work environment. Of course it's just the personal experience of one random guy on the comment section, but it's a data point that you might find interesting
Hello I am also from Italy and I graduated in IT last year, I'm thinking about getting into game development (started learning unity recently), do you have any advice for beginners?
@@CyanLex per imparare a programmare giochi a un buon livello ti consiglio il master che fanno a Verona, ma in realtà puoi anche imparare da autodidatta. Crea e pubblica almeno un piccolo gioco per conto tuo, che vale tantissimo nel tuo CV, e poi cerca una posizione di apprendistato in qualsiasi società di videogiochi, piccola o grande che sia, per fare esperienza e imparare dai colleghi più senior. In bocca al lupo!
Another thing to note: you will not get credited for making/helping make a game unless you're on the credits screen of the game. This means that if you spent one year on a game, then you decided to switch companies and that game would be developed for 2 more years, you won't get credited for your work, and you can't claim that you've worked on the said game either. Another way for game companies to abuse your passion.
I heard in India the IT ppl are little different . Just what I heard, i think the work culture is bit harsh? Ppl make mistake , if boss find out they will fire u. So ppl often not familiar with something, or have questions, they are trained to not ask to keep mouth shut(i would) cuz d manager so abusive n often fire ppl ? So it’s hard to learn or adept from work for something new n unfamiliar.
just do game dev on the side. Maybe that sounds a bit ridiculous, but there are lots of indie game dev communities and opportunities to follow your passion as a hobby, and if it pans out as an indie dev good for you.
So, I’ll comment after reading the description and before watching the video. I am an aircraft maintenance engineer, the salary tends to be terrible for the responsibility the we have. After a while, I found some joy working as a mechanic. We tend to do it with a lot of love and passion and surprisingly, the money ends up being better. Once you get a certification you can really start milking the cow, that is as long as you are a contractor. If you are a permanent employee, sometimes the money is lower than the one of a shelf stacker in your local supermarket. Hours are terrible, you often work away from home, stress is fucking real, and to top it off, mortal dangers and extremely hazardous substances are your daily bread. The aviation industry does take advantage of this, because to be honest, it’s planes! Who the fuck doesn’t think they are freaking awesome? Well, most of us in the industry go full otaku and poof, get treated like shit by greedy corporations. At this point, changing to game dev gives me 1 advantage: I can realistically make my own company. If I fail, fuck, I tried. If I make it, hell yeah! And this my friends is heaven in comparison to aircraft maintenance. There is no way in hell you can manage to get enough money by normal means that can afford to open a company that charges millions for fixing shit. Now to the video!!!!
No, the conditions grow worse. Since Free2Play business model is based on addiction that it's extremely appealing to these kind of people who are aware that to have a business based on addiction is a gold mine. It's like Gambling. You have a user base that is never going to give up on your software product, no matter what. They are addicted. Who are these people that love this system so much? Let's check the traits of these people: * Lack of empathy. * Looking for little work and maximum profit. * Fully aware that the workforce can be manipulated because their passion about game development. These factors attract one type of a very specific person. They are just the 1% of the human population but they manage to get into key positions of power. The bad news don't end in game development. Traditional software companies are trying to implement the same emotional manipulation ("we are a family") that game development companies have been using for decades with its employees and consumers. So the awful lazy sociopath bosses are being promoted more than ever everywhere. It's like a cancer that is spreading and nobody can do anything.
The expectation that all software jobs would be paid at the same level as fang companies is simply incorrect. Sure software jobs account for a heftier chunk of the salary budget in all companies but the salary budget is determined based on a company's net worth. For eg., Take2 interactive is one of the largest companies in game development with at least 15 studios and 5000 employees under its belt. Despite being so successful, its net worth is barely hitting $15b. Google on the other hand has a net worth of over $1t. That's almost 1000x the value of T2. In comparison, google probably has 50 times the employee count. It's easy to see why Google can afford such high salaries for it's employees as it has way too high a salary budget.
@@epmcgee Yeah but not in the western world, I bought a $28 gimbal over the holiday. Where I am, a minimum wage earner would pay for that in less than 3 hours. You could give me 3 years and I'd never be able to make what a minimum wage worker can buy after working just 3 hours. I think basic home and healthcare costs are way too high and it makes the wages seem low.
@@2beJT yes, other costs were raised while the salaries were not. They haven't been for a long time, but inflation exists. Again, as a rule jobs are generally underpaid. Even the minimum wage that's apparently so great where you're from. =D but if you're not earning it it can't be minimum wage.
@@epmcgee If I am not earning it it can't be a minimum wage? Are you capable of comprehending how illogical you are by saying such a thing? What rule book are you citing btw? If most workers are worth more how are they not forming co-ops and doing anything to get this true value in larger numbers than is happening? I've worked along side plenty of people who weren't worth what they were being paid. I think anyone who has ever worked for any amount of time has seen plenty of that. A lot of businesses fail and pay workers as they lose money as a business. Those jobs would need to be removed entirely from the economy if workers were paid a real value. I think, in the western world, if we just keep costs down and innovate on the essentials we are going to see the pay is great. Efficient basic homes that stay cool or warm with little power would go a long way. Finding ways to provide basic healthcare services for less profit driven reasons would be another big help.
@@2beJT minimum. As in you cannot go below that wage. If you are earning below minimum, it cannot be minimum wage. You claimed you wouldn't be able to earn in years what other minimum wage workers earn in three hours. It's made minimum wage by the law of that country. If that law is being circumvented then it's not minimum wage anymore since you're earning less. Minimum wage laws apply to every employee registered in that country. The Western world is a capitalist society, and capitalism solely functions on exploitation. Make the workers work more, and pay them less. This further benefits the rich and affluent who can manipulate the so-called "free markets" to make themselves richer and squeeze every penny out of the already penniless. A business failing, or potentially failing, has no affect on fair wages. What is happening to that company that it cannot sustain itself and pay fair wages, let alone industry standard which is typically much higher? Get off your high horse. You're living in a dystopia and your dreams will remain just that. Dreams. They don't provide enough monetary value to exist in a capitalist society. You even touch on it with the lack of affordable healthcare. That's because they don't care if you die, but they do care if you take any money with you.
I noticed the way he asks for "likes" in every video is so so wrong. "Drop a like if you hope that conditions at this companies get better" "Drop a like if you wish to earn an engineer salary" "Drop a like if you're excited about Apple's new product category" For which you can hope, wish, get excited and not necessarily like/enjoy a video. How about "like the video, if you liked the video"?
Me, a game developer watching this on my lunch break. Yeah crunch sucks, we all get unpaid, but the people are great and damn it is super fun to work on games. ;)
I agree with the general message, but comparing an engineer in Canada to an engineer out of USA, specifically California (assuming since Google HQ is in California), sounds a little unfair. California cost of living is known to be much higher than many states and countries. So it makes sense that even in other professions, lets say even in Finance or HR will earn more in California than someone in Texas/Montreal to compliment higher cost for rent/goods. When I checked myself, an Ubisoft Engineer in USA will make about 130K avg vs the 180K avg Google Salary shown within video. The gap is smaller, but still large enough to be eye opening.
I think I avoided a huge bullet here , I was thinking of going into game dev, but after seeing this video , I’d rathe go into à completely different industry 🥶
Leadership being entirely men, means nothing at all. If they were found to actually discriminate against women, then fine, but them being men normally, means nothing.
Same goes to VFX industry in countries like India its worse!!! i used to work in vfx company in 2012 i was paid $150-160 per month for working for big marvel movies like Iron man 3 and NO things in India arnt cheap because rent was like $80-$120 so i used to live in cheapest $50-$60 dorm room in worse area possible
I think everyone focuses on FAANG and it is just wrong. I have game developer friends who earn more than me as a software engineer. Same amount of experience. You also stated the truth in it too, when software engineers progress to higher levels they aren't engineers anymore. You are capable of working your life as a software engineer, but you will hit a cap, and that cap in most companies is the same as you describe for a game developer.
Sounds like residency for doctors, 16 hour days and paid $50k a year. But those long days are intentionally there to train us. And even though those 3-7 years are rough, but at least you know it will end.
I used to work in advertising as an artist, but wanted to switch into game development. I had a couple of interviews at gamedev companies but they all said I had a lack of experience. I started making my own game so I could showcase it as experience after I finished it. The big issue with making your own game is the lack of funds until the game release. It takes a lot longer than you'd think to complete a game that people will pay for.
I'd like to put a counterpoint here, if I may. I'm in the gamedev industry since 2004 as a game programmer at several different studios, and I still love my job. The comparisons above are a bit unfair. There are tons of business IT companies out there where you have to grind crappy and pointless tasks, where your bosses are awful people and they don't even pay that much, management cares only about the deadlines and profit and don't care about your professional opinion (heard enough stories like that). And there are literally tons of gamedev studios out there, where people are friendly, your expertise is valued, that are led by qualified people. Point is, there are good and bad workplaces in every sector, and it is important to note: not sure how many people will watch the above video in the end, but only a small protion will turn out in either one of the top business or gamedev companies, and the above comparison may lose relevance the further we get from those. Game development is tough, it will test your patience and resolve especially at the end of a project, your work is highly likely to be criticised by the very people you work so hard to entertain. But it is also exciting like nothing else, will constantly test your resourcefulness, your wits, pushing you forward to get better every day. It will allow you to work with an exceptionally colorful bunch of talented people who all do what you do because they share your passion. And yes, whatever you do out there, you can earn good money with it, if you are good at it. Yes, you might have to work for it.
Comparing Google with the gaming industry might not be a good idea. Google has a lot of business, when it comes to gaming, the customers are very narrowed. Many don't want to buy a high spec CPU or GPU. From a business perspective, you cannot market a game to every kind of audience. What I feel indie game dev and game dev by hobby is best rather than getting stuck with corporate who suck out passion and take most of the revenue. Sometimes hard work has no value. If you need money it all depends on how carefully you do the business. I know game devs work so hard, literally they do all the work. Google devs not work that much comparing game devs.
Should also consider more the economics of it. Lot of the highest wages are in Big Tech and their revenues are just on another level compared to games companies that don't use the freemium, games-as-a-service model. Developers like Ubisoft that mainly release games with a $60 price tag plus in-game purchases just don't have as big of an addressable market and revenues as they used to. Would be interesting to see what games devs at King, Supercell and Riot are making considering they have some of the top freemium games at a global scale.
It definitely depends a lot on the company. I've seen some internships that pay $40-50/hour for programmers. That's not Google levels, but it's an internship and most software places pay less than Google. So it's definitely still a problem and game dev pays less, but it's not the most accurate comparison. I've met some game devs who switched to software instead. The trick is they had to go to something semi-related. For example, one works on graphics chips/software and the other was using Unreal Engine to visualize event venues for an event planning software company. There's a surprising amount of overlap, though there can definitely be issues with switching over.
Wow, such a well-put video, I share the same sentiments because growing up I always admired Ubisoft for Assassin's Creed series, and being a LoL player since its inception and getting a somewhat transparent environment always had given me this notion that working there must be superb, especially considering how everyone at Riot just plays LoL and improves it and I loved that you pointed out, unlike traditional game studios, Riot's problem wasn't because of the corporate environment but because of toxic tropes within the community itself, considering Riot Games were made by passionate gamers themselves and that lawsuit was a good eye opener for them. It's sad how common crunch culture is within the game dev space. Correct me if I am wrong but I have a feeling that it would be rare to get hired there but things at Valve would be great. I don't remember any controversies within Valve and their office structure doesn't really have the traditional hierarchy. Probably the oddest game company ever!
Well i have worked for Google round about 6 years and it was the most boring thing ive ever done.... 90% of your job is automated so youve just to write abit code here and there but most of the time we were playing Ping Pong or refactor some written code from others. Thats it 🤷♂ I met people which were totally excited when they started to work for Google and only 6 months later they were so bored that they played the whole day League of Legends .... So i asked my Senior how the hell this job can be satisfying for someone with ambitions and he told me that people with REAL AMBITIONS working in laboratories on projects for quantum computing and other much higher related stuff than mine. But thats a job for big brains and i shouldnt pay to much attention for that because i will never achive what this people are capable of. He wasnt saying im dumb but to be a big brain means alot more than just write good code and knowing algorithms ! So yeah after 6 years i quitted my job at Google because i was completly frustrated and started to code for some smaller Gamestudios. Gamedevelopment is a completly different task than writing "Companycode" for applications and its the best thing i can imagine ❤To see when a project comes to life is so enjoyable for me ! I realy love it ! Its not that well paid but im fine with it because its my passion 👌Compared to my time at Google it never feels like a "job" its more like a Hobby and this is just great 👍
It sounds like a you will regret after 1 year at gaming industry because you can't really afford anything (After the money gone you accumulated from google). I mean if you could have so much time while working, you could become a indie game dev while earning tons of money. Still, its your choice.
You can say this of anything though. Google coders get paid more than most people. It’s like saying if you act in a Tom cruise movie you get paid more than if you act in a tv soap opera. Thinking logically game devs get a decent wage for most people and they aren’t really contributing to anything but a companies profits.
Salary is not the only variable, nor the most important : vacations, working hours, work ethic, etc. At first, only salary feels tractive but I prefer earning 10 times less If I have a working time of 30/35 hours/week and 5-8 weeks of payed vacation Also the stability of the job can impact you massively : Many companies do massive lays off without compensation. It is better to have a steady job that will protect you and not damage you physical and mental health
Most of these game companies aren't headquartered in the SF Bay Area Ubisoft for example is a French Developer Headquaterd in a Parsian suburb Most of Rockstars development is done in Montrèal San Diego and Glasgow Scotland
I'm a full stack web developer and have coded games in Playcanvas. I would rather code games on the sides than make it full time. Web development employers/projects pays more
I used to aspire to work at a Game Dev studio, but when I looked at their Glassdoor compensation, I was totally dissuaded from it. Despite doing what I consider very difficult work like building physics simulation systems and graphics engines, Game Devs get paid peanuts compared to other software engineers. I've since chosen to focus on becoming a web developer but have game development on the side because I still feel passionate about it. Thank you for bringing the facts of this reality to a broader audience.
web design seems so boring honestly
@@sournois90 Any job is boring if you are not into it. Just saying, man.
@@sournois90 well, you can work in backend development. You'll still need to have basic understanding of the frontend stack, but you won't actually work with it directly
And even front end developers rarely do "design", usually it's a separate job. Sometimes they do, though.
@@sournois90 you must have no creativity then.
@@LordCoeCoe lol you're right... I've always lacked creativity
but I'm really not giving up
Just to develop these games, you need to sacrifice 60/70 hours per week!! And they don’t care about your health!! And may not even credit you either!!
The sad reality
And most of them still release unfinished lol and they gotta keep those hours up for the next 6 months of patch work to make it a complete game
It feels like the animators working in animation studios like MAPPA or other anime studios.
@@SyntaxWyntax you can blame the company owners/ceos and management for thst. Not tbe devs.
It is a passion project after all... so they really exploit that "passion".
As a game developer who has experienced crunch culture, being a game developer really can take a toll on you. I ended up experiencing severe burnout and had to change studios. Right now, I'm quite happy and have great working conditions - obviously I cannot speak for the women that work with me but from what I notice they seem satisfied as well.
My point is: there are still good places to work as a game developer - specially in small indie studios as is my case. In addition, as a game developer you have to keep an assertive and professional attitude - don't worry no one is going to fire you (except if you are rude) and from what I have experienced people will even respect you more if you don't let them abuse your passion.
Regarding working at Discord/Twitch or something similar - it is a noble idea and you are contributing to the gaming community, however making games has deeper roots in the human psychology. It is the act of creating something, expressing yourself and sharing the final product with others, which brings a lot of joy.
By your name you look Portuguese. A Portuguese living the videogame dream is rare, since we dont have much game industry here, happy for you :) Curiosity: you work in a Portuguese company you remote? (assuming the second one).I always wished it but ended up in general software jobs during day and videogame hobbies during night for lack of alternatives.
Yes it is a small industry but there are still some stubborn people like me pushing forward. I work for a portuguese studio and it's not remote :) - also not in Lisbon, despite most studios being in Lisbon.
Indeed Software eng. earns alot but mostly end up bald xD I don't like that trade so I jumped into Games as a 3d Environment Artist and TBH its good to wake up every day and work on what u like. On the other side, I did like coding and solving problems but as I cannot control my thinking capacity, it was so hard for me to stop thinking. I still prefer less salary and do what I like.
but where does the money come from in the indie industry? Barely none?
@John-PaulHunt-wy7lf There are dozens of good game studios out there and seniors in game companies are often paid pretty well, so why don't follow the passion ? You can have the both.
I heard about this while I was still applying to colleges, and decided to pursue a career in traditional software development instead of game development. Now I work a minimum wage job in an unrelated field due to intense competition for entry level software development jobs. A reminder to everyone that just because some people are getting paid a ton of money doesn't mean you'll also get paid a ton of money. Survivor bias and all that, you only hear about the Google employees making $70 per hour, but not about the hundreds of thousands of people who applied to work for Google and got rejected. Then you'll see statistics like "The average Google employee makes $85 per hour" which is technically true.
Entrepreneurship a good route ?
You really couldn't get any software engineering job at any company in America?
This must be a you issue. I get getting rejected by a top company like Google, but not every single company would reject you.
@@chadsworthgigafuck7076 like in a lot of industries, there is the typical requirement of experience to get an entry level job. So getting in an entry level job to get experience is tough. I've been looking for a job for a few months now, i don't live in the states though, so it has to be remote. I also live in a remote area. Freelance is definitely an option, but people need money to live, and freelance doesn't pay a constant monthly check. Also someone just starting out usually doesn't know much of anything about anything, so if you want to freelance building websites for example it might take awhile to reach a marketable level unless that was your exact goal when you started out learning. You don't however need a job at a FAANG company to make it though, my guess is the OP just didn't try hard enough. There are lots of small businesses that need programmers or may be willing to take on an apprentice/internship. If you want a fucking hard time move to a 3rd world country to a remote town with 10,000 people in it and them try to start your career in software engineering.... Also minimum wages are 15USD a day, also a day of work is 12 hours.
@@chadsworthgigafuck7076 I'm in Canada, and the issue isn't a lack of jobs, it's extreme competition for the jobs. The entry level ones I applied to all had 200+ applicants each, I looked at ones in my area and remote jobs
Probably because your portfolio sucks
I totally agree with that I’m currently working in the IT space as developer. Game devs do 90% more work than I do and get paid 25-40% less then me.
Mai bhi Indian hu aap kaha Kam karte hai
where do you work and what do you work on, plz give me info
what kind of dev are you?
@@UnorganizedOrganized im currently working as project manager but it only means I tell people what to do and chill my ass off. Otherwise try to get into data analytics or python programming it’s easy and pays well
The sad thing is, most Devs don’t even get recognition for their work.
credits?
@@ShadowBanned0 No one looks at credits man.
@@OnurTheXbot what do you suggest then?
@@ShadowBanned0 I’m not suggesting anything, I’m saying they don’t get recognition
At least you get paid. If you want all the credits, then go make your own studio and bear the heavy risk
I used to be that glitter eyed child who wanted to make awesome games at legendary studios, but then the harsh reality hit me and, at the end of the day, you will be way more happy doing it as an hobby or side hustle rather than as a full dev. What happens there is pure slavery.
@Diadact 45 Right.
@Diadact 45 Slavery with extra steps
imagine being an animator, even less pay
I’m going with indie
@@majestic8274 Indie all the way. Ever since I started gamedev I knew that I didn't wanna make games for someone else and I am gonna keep it that way.
As a software engineer, I'm very impressed by your accurate analysis of career paths!
Thank you Jonas!
He has to...
Or he'll get roasted ...
@@xr.spedtech tru
@@LogicallyAnswered What was the website you used to search up said wages?
@@xr.spedtech by whom? Most viewers are not developers so people won't know if its legit or not.
Even if a developer points it out, the comment may not make it up to top even if it does it could just be deleted.
My experience in a gaming company was pretty unfulfilling. Everything was being done in the name of profits, increasing addiction and corporate politics and very little in terms of actual coding quality or user experience. It resembled more to working in the banking system than anything else. Only paid way less and treated like dirt for reasons I couldn't even comprehend. The only perk I enjoyed was being able to play games all day long because I had finished my tasks early. Of course, it only takes one prickly manager to notice and it's over and besides it does nothing for your personal development.
I bet the company also was making mobile games, trying to be trendy pretending it was the year 2006, the iOS store was fresh and new and hip, and they were all about 'monetization'. 🤦♂
"Only paid way less and treated like dirt for reasons I couldn't even comprehend." Let me enlighten you then, it's because of lack of worker unions.
@@astrahcat1212 well the mobile game industry makes more revenue than all the other game platforms combined so it’s not like they were taking the wrong path in making money. Though I understand why developers would hate it
I am a pro. game-dev since 2008. However most of the years I worked as a freelancer. The thing is that I have realized years ago that I am stuck in this industry. I like my work, it's literally my child dream come true, but I am definitely stuck. The good thing is that I live in eastern Europe and with my salary I can live here decently. I am turning 40 this summer so this is my life, past and future. The main thing is that you can find anything if you keep looking for long enough ..
Are you working remotely? Im currently in the process of moving back home to Eastern Europe, while keeping my remote game design job. Its not even amazing pay, but its still way above the average wage back home..I also have no other way of living :D
@@garuthesun1445 Of course I work remotely. If I would work for local businesses I would make a lot less.
@@drednac Would you consider working in Japan?
Very similar creeping feeling here tbh. Gonna be stuck in this industry. It’s what I want to do, but there is this melancholic feeling that comes with it.
Definitely feel stuck
I’m a carpenter in Kentucky and make 61k a year. I’m in good shape, 44 years old and happy. Working with your hands no matter what you do is satisfying. I wish you all the happiness I have found…
did you start with no prior experience or you had some sort of qualification first?
I'm a doctor and I would like to switch to a manual creative job like carpentry.
Ngl carpentry sounds like a fun underrated job
Depends on the carpentry. Framing houses for example sounds tedious and boring to me. Making furniture might be interesting though.
Agree, I'm q polyglot, with a career, but handwork will always be better, less stress, good money, freedom, peace.
This is horrendously common in creative industries. You think this is bad, try see the Japanese animator industry. It's so bad some have to have a second job so that they can support themselves living as an animator. Considering how many abuses the movie industry also have had, it seems to be a pattern any creative industry where the people involved are generally passionate and that passion keeps them wanting to work in the industry which makes them easy to use and abuse.
well dont become an animator there then. doesnt contribute much to society, often in bad ways.
I also don't get paid to play games in my free time so I need another job to support myself. how sad it truly is, I am very abused
@@user-wq9mw2xz3j are you seriously equating animating to playing games?
@@user-wq9mw2xz3j brain dead take
@@asimplelamp what do people make money off livestreaming? playing games.
what is that? entertainment. Same as video games, entertainment. It's not the same, I never said it was, but of course it's very comparable and none bring much benefit to society, just entertainment.
@@user-wq9mw2xz3j Developping games or animating is absolutely not the same as livestreaming, nor is it comparable. And if you think entertainement doesn't benefit society, then you're a very sad person.
I worked for Ubisoft for six years, and I approve this video.
1 year before leaving the company I even prepared and showed the HR and my manager some slides comparing the work condition, competitive edges, and compensation, showing them the huge and disprpotional gap in compensation compared to the peers (mine was 1/3 of the average of the market!). I warned them people will eventually walk out. And people walked out, to the point of HR crisis and projects going on hold.
I worked on difficult physics problems, which was my passion. So I exactly get it when I hear "feeling trapped", because I wanted to keep doing what I loved. I did not mind working for 13 14 hours a day, even weekends, because it was my passion, and I would do it even if I had 10 million dollars in the bank. I think these companies are well aware of the "passion" factor, and are not shy to take advantage of it.
That is terrible, and I feel sorry you had to go through that. I hope you understand your worth now and can negotiate good wages with different studios. I know a lot of the west coast ones are offering $100k+ for various engineering positions even if adjusted for your working remotely location.
@@ls.c.5682 thanks for the comment mate. Most people working in the game and VFX industries are sort of trapped in terms of the type of skills they develope. It is a known problem that once you spend some years in these industries, you find it extremely hard to break the cycle, not because you do not want to, but because the hiring tech companies are generally less interested in our game and VFX resume, with some exceptions.
Anyways I got lucky to find a job at Nvidia, which has been great so far.
For people who think this is unfair, and all game devs are underpaid, not all game studios pay the same. Niantic, Roblox & Riot games pays their engineers extremely well. In fact, higher than all of FAANG for some levels. At the same time, FAANG companies only constitute the top 1% of the software industry. There are lots & lots of software companies that pay in the same range as the studios mentioned in the video.
Yes exactly.
It's a perspective problem. It'slike wondering why some people are so bad at running 100m in less than 10 seconds when it's only the top of the top that manages to do it and that "poor" performance doesn't only concern some people but most people.
I think the issue is that most people assume you have to work for these game supergiants, like, bro, go work for an indie company, the environment is way calmer, and the pay is probably on par, or better, than the giants
Ah yes, a small select group does something (semi-)correctly and all is good in the world. Problem is this issue is persistent throughout the industry, and many others, no matter how many "good apples" there are.
problem is, there's little passion involved around those studios. Roblox isn't even game development, it's game engine development. When there's a lack of passion, only then do the working conditions increase.
I worked at Ubisoft for a couple of years (as a senior and then expert programmer), BY FAR the worst work experience I ever had. Producers abuse being reported by lots of people and HR and Management just hiding things and enableing abusers
Just curious were you francophone during your time at ubi?
@@Kuchen90000 no, but it wasn't that important, I was working at the Helsinki/Finland studio... But what you mention I hear is a constant problem for foreign people going to work for Ubisoft in france
@@DiegoSarmentero I heard a lot that Ubisoft is the worst place to work and as I know they pay much lower than other, I got an offer to work in the Paris office for 50k euros/year gross, this is ridiculously small amount of money in such expensive city, the funny part is - my current wage in Eastern Europe even higher )
So, now when I see Ubisoft - I just skip it every time.
@@pamparam3495 yap, I think Ubisoft paying way less money than other companies (not mentioning the abuse, etc) is common practice in most ubisoft studios, it was the same here in Helsinki
Ubisoft is utter **** and has gotten so much worse the last decade
Damn, here goes my hope of being a rich Game Dev or the next Hideo Kojima.😅
Good luck!
@@LogicallyAnswered Cheers, and thank you very much for making this video.
Hideo Kojima is a Designer.
@Siva He's still a Game Dev, or at least Game Project Director.
Feel like your best bet is to land jobs that give you "grunt" work experience, leadership experience, and enough time to have a life beyond work. Then use that free time to make an indie game that pops off lol, like Scott Cawthon with FNAF, which then gives you the resources to really expand into a company and make bigger and bigger games.
Or you can look at Marko Grgurovič, lead dev and father of Mordhau who had no prior game dev experience, and have a PhD level of CS knowledge that allows you to code an incredibly tight game system and netcode, then use this knowledge to fill in a niche but very existent demand in the market (which was a proper Chivalry: Medieval Warfare sequel). Chances are you are part of that niche demand if you're bothering to go down this path as well; passion and interest help a lot in entrepreneurship. Filling in demands and customer pain points is basically entrepreneurship in a nutshell.
Basically, I'm dissuading you from getting into game development unless you're at the helm in some fashion lol
Very interesting video. I worked as a Data Engineer at Ubisoft for many years, and your video is partially true.
Yes, salary are generally below of the FAANG companies.
Yes, people are often driven by the passion.
And, of course, software engineer in gaming industry should have DECENT SALARY !
But, you forget to mention something, people who work at FAANG and gaming industry are very different.
Software engineer at FAANG are driven are salary, technical sophistication and prestige.
People in gaming aren't the same purpose in their work, they are less ambitious (and it's not a bad thing) and more driven by the passion (as you say in the video), and of course, the prestige.
These two kinds of people are VERY different. Very few people at Ubisoft, EA, Riot or Rockstar want to work in a FAANG companies, even with a enormous salary. It's just not the same philosophy at work.
In the gaming industry, DS&A inteviews is not a standard. You can have it, but it's not required.
In the tech industry, software engineer is a "Portmanteau word", but often, after few years (3/5 years), you're going to specialize you in a branch (webdev/ML/data/cloud/devops etc...), and video games is branch, but yes, it's one of the less profitable path.
In the video game industry, you have MANY jobs not related to building games, such as software engineer web, data scientist, data engineer, cloud engineer and so on. Those jobs are very standard, and you can find same position in FAANG. So, you can go from games industry to FAANG without problem (assuming you are strong enough and DS&A).
Last thing, making/building are video games is very complex, and FAANG companies (and engineers) underestimate the complexity of creation a GOOD games. So far, Facebook/Amazon/Google/Netflix (except Microsoft) don't catch the recipe, and they are more concerned with masking the fear and deep anxieties that their application creates in their users. Difficult to sell video games with such reputations.
Q: what's ds&a?
Oh wait is data structure and algorithms isn't it?
@@raandomplayer8589 Yes it's data structures and algorithms.
The harsh work hours were true 5-10-15 years ago. It is a lot more civilized now (in most of USA and Europe, Asia is a different animal). Overtime is much reduced. Yes, there are still some places which do overtime (CD Projekt RED), but even there it much less than before and on a downward trend.
The lower pay is true. As a game dev, I can perhaps double my salary in a different place (at the very least increase by 50%). But in life you have to balance enjoyment. I've worked in accounting software, and as long as I can afford tap water and bread, I'm not going back. I like what I do - the daily tasks and the end product. Sure, I can make more, but the money is enough. And more money may give me more enjoyment after work, but are not worth suffering more at work.
If you live in a hyper-expensive city, a six-digit salary may not be enough to make ends meet, but in a cheaper place a game dev salary is enough to live well. With remote work you can live cheap and work for almost any company.
That being said, the comparison between Ubisoft and Google is not very fair. Ubisoft and game studios in general are much more open to new graduates and people without experience. Google is much more stringent with hiring, so it takes a lot of experience and/or incredible talent to start there. A junior at Google may well be mid or senior in other places. A common complaint is that almost everyone there is overqualified for the tasks they do.
About the last part - few women are interested in programming. There've worked with some, and they were very good programmers, but most women in game dev are in the art department. I see more coming into producing in the last few years, which is nice.
Thank you for your comment, I can sleep safely now XD
You never cease to amaze me with the overall quality of your content, regards from Mexico!
Thank you so much Daniel!
I dreamed of becoming a game developer as a kid, I drowned myself in videogames to escape the reality I lived it. Once I heard about the culture of game dev studios, I immediately pivoted to wanting to take a more traditional route and build an indie game as a hobby. Still studying and taking it a step at a time, hopefully I can build a game and release it one day for others to enjoy!
Sounds like a good middle path. I wish you best of luck with your game, that sounds nice!
I'm currently trying to go down that same path I wish you the best of luck mate 🙏🏼
This is why despite studying a uni degree aimed towards game development I'm avoiding working in the games industry and instead aim to stick with it as a hobby.
@@BakangPrivv got a First-Class Honours BSc in a course called Games Computing at the University of Lincoln, UK. 1st and 2nd year were about 80% CS and 20% Games, 3rd year I pretty much chose as many "normal" CS modules as I could
@@BakangPrivv Yeah, it has come up in every interview I've had since. Gets old having to explain that I like making games but the industry itself sucks
@@Sweenus987 what about a dual degree in gaming computing and CS? The Game Computing degree might hamstring you for future job prospects and career growth
@@the-fantabulous-g As far as I know you can't study for a dual degree, at least not at the uni I went to.
Otherwise, if you did one you would likely be better off doing a master's degree related to the other rather than have 2 separate BSc degrees.
@@Sweenus987 Fair enough- is it too late to switch to a CS degree in its entirety then? If you don't mind not getting a Games Computing title as your degree, I still think the CS bachelors degree might open more doors or tick off the right HR boxes. Something as food for thought though, since I'm very much an internet stranger with no idea of your own life goals and wants. Worth having a grain of salt about, and definitely worth having discussions with mates and mentors about too.
Being a game developer should be respected, As they produce so many entertainment in there games throughout the years.
_Their_ games. _Their_ is theirs, whilst _there_ is something _there_ are somebodies. Corrected for you, you are welcome.
also require the most math and computer science concepts aswell. you will use your whole CS bacholors degree in this job. im sure.
@@theowillis6870 As a game developer, I barely touch math. If you're not planning on making your own game engine, you'll be good with basic trig and algebra.
@@Alex-3XL Great... achievement unlocked... you win the internet and made the world safer. What a fine educator. 🤓
sad to see people passionate getting abused.
😔
Wow...I found the compensation part of this video really surprising and quite an eye opener. Never quite thought of things this way when it comes to hiring/paying IT talent (guess I've been a bit naive). I've been working as a developer and systems-analyst for over 20 years now (yep I'm old!). My experience has almost entirely been within the legacy/mainframe space (I know, I know - mainframe is "boring" when compared to web, mobile, or game development 😉). Anyways - even though my company is not a cutting edge technology firm, our starting salaries within the IT dept are in the 70 to 80K range for new graduates which I guess falls in line with this video's premise that companies that do more routine/"non-exciting" IT work need to pay more to get new graduates to join. However, until watching this video, I've just always assumed that cutting edge / silicon-valley-style IT companies must all be paying really high salaries in order to bring in the kind of top talent needed for that kind of work. It doesn't surprise me that work hours at a company like EA are grueling ....but I am really shocked at the kind of compensation (or lack thereof) that these developers are getting. That is really depressing....I can only assume that these companies must have a lot of burnout!
has to do with supply and demand. activision can afford to give their QA testers starvation wages because the mind set is ONE DAY ill get noticed and get a full time position. take advantage while theyre still young and gullible basically. problem is, the availability of those full time spots are incredibly rare and the supply of people wanting to make their careers playing video games vastly outpaces it.
back in early 2000, i believe it was, a bunch of spouses from developers working at EA sent a letter to the CEO demanding to be able to see their loved ones again. as if they were off on some deployment a mile away from their homes. Nautey Dog CEO considers 100 hour work weeks as a standard TO THIS DAY. they have a vastly low retention rate. Bioware with mental health issues. list goes on. the supply never stops spewing out though.
@@sammavrs Yikes!! 100 hr work weeks as "standard" 😳....On my team - in the weeks approaching an implementation weekend - it is sometimes necessary to put in extra hours (eg 10 to 12hr days)...but this is usually for a short period of time, usually limited to the last two or three weeks prior to a major impl. weekend.....After that, work tends to return to normal / 8hr days for months (or longer) as design/dev efforts move forward with the next scheduled project/change (and this cycle - i.e. long stretches of normal/regular days followed by 2 or 3 weeks of longer hours - repeats over and over) .....I've never been in a situation where I've had to put in a 100 hr work week as a regular "standard" for week after week / month after month! ....I imagine that under those kinds of working hours, it must also be difficult maintaining the needed mental focus for the kinds of programming associated with developing a high-end game!....Like I said above, mainframe application design/development is not the most exciting lol!.....but I will definitely take it over the kinds of stress a developer of a high-end game must have to go thru on a regular basis!...They really must have a passion for that work to put up with it those hours...but it's nuts that they are not compensated fairly....especially since without all that work the company would have no product in the first place...
It's also greedy CEOs. Increase their own wages by a few million and nothing to the workers who allow him to be able to make that much
Long ago, I wanted to be a game developer as a career. But, in hearing about all of the competition, underpayment and horror stories on how game developers are treated; I instead stayed an Indie developer and as a job, I drive a bus. I'm bus driving and the pay is decent and my field is severely UNDERSATURTED and understaffed. All kinds of companies are struggling to find bus drivers and truck drivers. And due to the understaffing, I can keep a nice and easy job with benefits and still work on my games between the 5 hour break I get each day.
So, if anybody is worried about finding a stable job. Just get CDL and you won't have to worry about finding a job anymore. You'll have trillions of jobs to choose from and you can still make games.
Is there under-staffing everywhere or just in certain places?
"Bus driver by day, video games developer by night!" I loved it :-).
I knew one security guard in some building in nightshifts i think... Instead of patrolling around he would sit behind his desk and make various maps for Half Life 2 :-))...
Try to avoid passion when choosing a job. Focus on the Money/effort. Honestly I'm not surprised this industry doesn't have women. Same reason I'm not surprised women don't occupy sewer/lumber/fishing/combat roles. Too much work, too dangerous, not enough pay. Working 13 hrs a day for weeks is dangerous. Men should take lessons from women in this regard. You just get into a position that you get exploited to all hell.
Bad video, most of it misses the mark by a lot.
The main problem in video games is that the amount of money has attracted the most unsavory of finance sharks, all the way back in the 90s. AAA gaming is now riddled with them and they are openly destroying, I'm sorry "optimising", games for money. The dev abuse and predatory financial models are rife and growing since over 20 years.
This system of dev abuse isn't a question of "passion", that's the meme these sharks want to sell. "You're passionate, so you can work much more" is an obvious straw man argument.
The REAL problem is that videogames still attract an extremely large amount of newbies every year. People enter games development for the luster of it, and quickly get trapped into absurd hours with a company culture that is thoroughly about gaslighting and free overtime. If they leave, they get replaced within a few weeks at most.
Worse, this situation with a massive turnover (I recall a number of 70% of beginners quitting video games within 3 years, that's not quitting their company, it's quitting game dev as a whole) has spurred this atrocious culture of "survival" where if you tolerate the 100 workweek and absurd work conditions, it's because you're "strong enough". This entirely toxic culture is spread throughout all game dev, and if you simply say "my last job paid me 50% more for 40 hours and you're asking me to work 90+ hours", the response is sure to be a different way of saying "oh well, I guess you're just not good enough to be with us, you're not one of the big boys".
This culture is omnipresent and spreads throughout another aspect of big shark bean counting: contractors. Most games actually do not need large creative groups. You need TONS of people working on it, but they don't have to be creative, they just need a general guideline and art direction. In AAA you have a core of 10% of devs and management that actually run the show and 90% of artists and devs that are just sent tickets and emails and do the job with little to no creativity. The Sharks have been working as hard as possible to externalise these people as contractors since forever. Those that aren't contractors aren't treated much better, and it's not rare to hear of 70/80% of a dev team being laid off at the end of a project. If you're surprised to hear about these massive layoffs, don't be: the games industry is not only extremely toxic with its employees, but it also makes it very clear that if you want to work there again, you better not make a sound about your work conditions, so everyone learned to lower their head and take it.
If you want a *real* good example of what I'm saying, look up Mick Gordon's statement about how Id Software treated him and Bethesda/Zenimax along with it.
medium.com/@mickgordon/my-full-statement-regarding-doom-eternal-5f98266b27ce
It is an extremely good read and shows all the reality of this vile industry. Gaslighting for years, stressing your contractors out, shifting blame, contract breaking, backstabbing, and management always getting away with it at the expense of devs and players. And Mick Gordon is quite famous for his work, imagine the conditions for some no-names.
Passion? Discrimination? That's total drivel, your video is absolutely out of touch.
The Hard Truth.
this what I felt should be pointed out, but I guess the video is targeted for clearly people who still don't know the industry or care in the thin surface layer.
I've worked as a traditional software developer/web developer for about 15 years. It's a great career path with tons of options. I've always wanted to work as a game developer or be involved in the industry somehow, but I know basically everything in this video is accurate. I end up repeatedly deciding it's not worth it to give up a cushy career path doing something that's still "interesting/valuable" to slave away at an abusive job for way less pay just for the sake of passion. I have learned some game development as a hobby - it's extremely difficult and just makes me admire (and feel bad for) people in that role even more.
I am a game developer but i have always dabbled into everything else and have deep understanding of them. i do mobile app development and i integrate with platforms like aws, azure and Digital Ocean. I have worked in Game Studios and Enterprise solutions companies.
What do you prefer in all that?
So what do you think ?
@@mracipayam I think its possible to learn game development and transition to other forms of programming later but i will not advice anyone to go that route if you get what i mean. My advice will be try out everything and see how you can incorporate everything together. That way you stay up to date with the trend in both game development space and the enterprise solution technologies.
I'm studying Game Programming at University and is way more fun and interesting than CS(I was a CS student and quit for Game Programming), also the people studying are more kind and fun than the average CS student(a lot of people dont like the field and are in only for the money, in Game Programming most people are really passionate), we often work together with art degree students and Is a very sociable ambient, very good for our softskills, also I'm studying at Apple Developer Academy and learning Swift, iOS dev is my plan B If the games path goes wrong.
My little brother is studying to become a game developer but in his class of 30 there is 1 girl so I really do not understand why riot games would need 20% girls in there leadership. it’s stupid that makes women have far more chance at having a good position then men that would need to work even harder for that role now.
One the one hand yeah, I agree but on the other this might encourage more women to become developers
That is pretty dumb. I hate when they have stupid quotas for things like. The numbers aren't even possible in certain industries. That means that they're hiring useless people (in this case it's women who have no passion or knowledge of games) who just make other women who actually know what they're doing look bad. It's just stupid all around; most of those men in "leadership" positions don't even know what they're doing either but have the nerve to criticize the women who get hired on a diversity quota. Stupid.
I heard (not sure if true) that part of riot's lawsuit included people making fart joke (too "men" culture)
@@wombot2188 That's probably just cancel culture again.
But, I agree with @Eliouz to a degree, as long as it's not overboard, but there are other ways to promote and encourage women to get into game development.
On the other hand, you can encourage through promotion and all that, but at the end of the day, if women don't want to be in the field they just don't and that's alright too. No need to buck the current of nature.
@@eli0uz why waste resources convincing people who don't want to be developers into being developers
This is such hard reality slap for me... You just made me realized how naive I am into thinking game development is such a chill career.
Just because there aren't any women doesn't mean discrimination played a role in it. I don't know why that's so hard for people to understand. Not talking about Riot Games, just in general.
Its better to be an indie game developer with a small community . Working for these giant game companies doesnt have the same amount of enjoyment/dedication.
Mate yes
Can you elaborate more on this please? I'm in a situation where I can't afford making a bad decision. Thanks.
@@MafiaSniper It depends a lot on your situation tbh. If you have a lot of responsibilities and very little free time then you obviously cant go indie. But if you have absolutely nothing else to do, indie can be very profitable if done right.
I dont want this to be too long to read, so i ended up cutting a lot of corners, despite the text wall ahead lol.
Basically, dont lose time spending years working in a single project. When you release your game, it might be a flop and people wont buy it. Work on an idea for some time, at most a month, release it, and if it flops learn from it, see what failed and make a new game right away. If it is successful, keep working on it to make your playerbase grow, add content that you can profit from. Simple as that.
Also, To increase your likelyhood of making a game that is relatively successful, focus on the eyecandy. People will play something that looks and feels good. Mechanically, you might have a very simple game, but if you make it visually pleasing, you instantly have a far better product. Dont think hyper realism or anything like that, focus on simple and good looking graphics that are easy to produce so you dont waste a lot of time on each asset.
Think about this: you always hear of big indie games that make tons of money like minecraft, undertale, hollow knight, stuff like that. But it is obvious that you wont be making a giant hit game in your first attempt. You'll have to iterate a lot till something successful happens. For example, look at the unreal engine. Epic games started as an "indie" team of devs making 2d platformers that were trash like jill of the jungle. Then after many games, one day they made the game "Unreal" and it was a total success, and they kept working on it, and the engine, because that was the most successful product they made.
What im saying is you have to focus on building very simple games that you can finish in a short amount of time, something that you can work on for like a month and then release it for some cash and start gaining from it. If your game flops, it doesnt matter, you didnt spend years on it, so you quickly move on to the next iteration, making a new game and learning from what failed in your previous release. Eventually, you will release a game that will be successful enough to make you profits. Thats the kind of games that you should keep updating and try to make the community around it grow somehow by releasing new content from time to time. Just keep releasing stuff, no matter how small it is. Your objective right now is to make cash, because you're in a bad situation, right? So dont try to focus on making some hit game that takes inspiration from all the cool successful indie titles out there. Just do something that takes a month at most to make and that is fun and simple to play. There's always someone who will buy your game.
Also I recommend checking r/gamedev subreddit and look at all the indie devs who put a lot of work into their games for years and failed at launch. There's always some good posts explaining how to properly market your game when you release it.
Anyways, i hope this rushed and half baked comment can sort of help you. Kinda.
@@AlFredo-sx2yy Thank you so much for a detailed answer.
Fortunately, that's what I have started to do. Making small games and getting them out in the market. I have some time to experiment, so hopefully I'll get some success. Thankfully, no one is dependent on my earnings, it's just me.
Again, I really appreciate your reply. I hope you have a nice day.
@Al Fredo well I agree mostly, games can't be made in 1 month by 1 person. Those 1 months games are great for learning, not really meant for release
Glad you covered this, the headlines of abuse and crunch are really tiring, especially when it's from the games we love. Knowing you enjoy something that someone else is sacrificing their own mental health and family time just because the execs push them to isn't fun
Pro-tip: pirate the game, don't enable their abuse.
Thanks for this video. As a person working in tech audit I heard plenty of those game dev stories but always wondered "why won't they just switch the industry"
Your film pretty much answered my question
Game developers have the same problem as teachers (in the US, at least). They do the job because they are passionate about it, and employers take cruel advantage of it, and underpay.
School teachers are mostly provided by the state government or local government in the US, what did you expect State and local governments are known for paying low and giving a low budget to schools so in return they compensate them with really good benefits
and interesting enough, not all teachers love working with kids
I’m an animator, I love this video.
Speak our mind.
If I can go back in time, I’ll never become an animator. It’s fun but pay like shit.
I'm starting up an indie game as I felt like it was the best choice rather than join something existing. I'm a rather slow but hard-working perfectionist dev and if I would be given a short deadline by one of these massive companies I might fail or just end up rushing it. The pay doesn't even seem worth it, so I wanted to work with something I can more personally have a passion in without having to think about money. Like yes a game needs money, but I'm not gonna be greedy about it. I believe passion is the best ingredient for a good game!
I have a question for you... your indie game is with unity or unreal engine coz i dont know what path should i choose ..
@@albertosalash.3834 We did plan on using Godot actually. But with everyone rather inexperienced on it, and too little 3D game tutorials, we just kept stomping on the same place with it.
Sooo, couple months ago I decided to go with Unreal, as my programmer is way more experienced in it as well. He teached me a bit about how it worked too and I think, well.. There's a lot of stuff everywhere lmao
I believe that is the best choice for us though, and Unity haven't even been on my radar at all so it was either this or that. I think we'll do really well with Unreals new stuff though so I think its a good pick.
Also, since Unity sort of went on a money greedy mood not too long ago, I would watch out investing in it in case they do another oopsie. So pick your game engine wisely, try to wager all your options! 👍
Some of the best paying software work is mind numbingly boring and also difficult needing advanced mathematical skills, for example distributed server code or financial/accounting backends. I would almost always choose a job creating something cool for $150k/year over boring number crunching for $300k/year. I guess game companies know this and use it to squeeze developer salaries.
That's exactly why they do it
I don't think it's "fun" either though. You're creating a game according to someone else's instructions, deadlines, etc. You're not creating a game for yourself or your team and then "giving it to the world" like art. It's still just a product, because of how capitalism works.
@@MoonOvIce Writing gameplay code is more fun than writing code for bank.
@@-Engineering01- Oh I'm sure it is. But it's not all it's cracked up to be, is it?
@@MoonOvIce in my country gamedevs are paid same, not less
I am a third year middle school student.
I wanted to become a game developer after watching the w.o.w game cinematic, the grandeur and the thrill that deeply etched in my heart.
Action-adventure games are currently in vogue, but later, when I grow up, I had a dream to create a world where the world is crazy about rpg.
However, after watching this video, I realized that it is very different from what I want to be as a game developer.
As a game developer, I want to be a game developer who not only makes good games, but also wants to receive a reasonable salary.
Is it really impossible to succeed as a game developer?
I am in school for gamedev right now, and there are paths or specialisations that you can do that will have better job garentee or better pay. It's not easy but there are ways
If all u care about is your passion, go for it. Otherwise, don't. I'm about to graduate from game dev school and while it is fun, it definitely isn't the most profitable. It's even harder to do when I started losing my passion for it. Even now, my plans for the future has changed and it has little to do with game development. It's also true that you are worked to the bone, while you can do other simpler things and earn equally/more.
@@abigailpf9835yeah finally thank you for saying facts I hate when people say doctors are the most stressful job and glorify computer engineers and game engineers when they work so much more stressful jobs like the saying goes “the grass is always greener on the other side”
Biggest tip ever...
The whole world is very very very very very very VISUALLY superficial. People buy shiney things, things that look good the second they look at it.
A game developer is in large part a graphics programmer. Learn shader programming very well, that's a good step, get a website and make the 'front end' of your business look very HD, shiney, sharp, very brightly lit.
Make a good game and people will play it. It's that simple... Dwarf Fortress... Minecraft etc.
I worked as a software engineer in the gaming industry in the UK for 10 years between 1994 and 2004, and can confirm that the hours can get ridiculous near launch. I remember once working all day Sunday and all night that Sunday evening.
We were basically passing out on our desks when other people were turning up for work Monday morning, no overtime paid but we did get a bonus.
Glad I got out to be honest but it's not all bad - it is fun and challenging but you probably won't get rich...nowhere near rich. Developers, though, usually go into the games industry driven by passion, not money.
Most faang developers aren't rich either
Well, I'm an owner and developer of a game and it's very exciting to see the game grow.
Which game?
When I graduated, I had a choice between game dev and embedded software developer. 3 years later, I worked at Apple making 3x the money than a game dev.
I work as a game developper and I 100% agree with your amazing video. I'm no employee, but freelance (which is even worse). I'm so grateful to this video. Talking publically about our working conditions is so important. Thanks so much :)
The game devs should unionize. Go for profit sharing ontop of hourly wages.
These companies for the most part are for profit so they aren’t going to be profit sharing anything while it may be a good thing though only the executives profit share and the rest is used for new projects
It should happen, but it won't
I am currently pursuing to become a Game Developer, your video is pretty good and all points you said are True
But still I believe there are some companies who pays well and care about there Devs only time will tell if I am wrong or not but I would definitely try to shift the job before getting trapped
and although in Game Industry chances of this are High as many big studios face this, getting a good paying job in Software Engineering isn't easy either. Life isn't easy
So ig it's just matter of choice that you either Word Hard for your Dream Job or Work Hard due to your Dream Job
This also describes academia and research so well. Painted into a niche corner with minimal pay or job security unless you manage to land tenure. 😭🤬
Whether unionized or not, there is a maximum legal time limit as to the maximum number of hours you can work where I live. My father (and his crew) had reached that limit so they were forced to take two days off. Ticked him off a bit as the plan was to work the month and a half, 16 hour days (food was provided) with only three days off in there and that would have been his year (being paid triple time). So those two days were more like 12 days.
I make 100k at a financial company as a Jr DevOps Engineer. I’m a jr and have solid work-life balance, 5 weeks off, am treated with respect, and have a manager that goes up to bat. There is no way I’d EVER work in the game industry.
I make 200k as a new grad
@Joe Smith what job are u working at which company to get 200k right off the bat if u dont mind me asking?
@@Karuska22ps Only 200k as a new grad? I was on that as an intern
@@Jay-oh1li Heh I was earning gajillions at the age of 4
@@stickguy9109 You weren´t born with trillions of dollars??? You had to WAIT!?!?!?
I remember back in university, I had a comp sci professor that warned us all against going into game design for all of these reasons listed out. I always remember he was like “so, I know that 80% of you guys chose computer science because you wanted to make video games. Well, because of that, the market is is very over saturated with video game programmers.”
We have a lot of trouble finding good candidates, actually. There's big referral bonuses of $8k being offered to anyone at my studio who finds a decent coding candidate who interviews successfully and takes the role.
This was my dream job as a kid (I'm 40+). My grandfather told me programmers will be the slaves of next generation. :D (considering this was in the '90s when computers were very rare here he was very prescient). I became sthing else completely.
Programming is becoming more and more flooded, it's a waste if it's not your greatest passion. I analysed becoming one, but the cons were overlapping the pros
@Kadir In my university there's a new Major called Digital Influence, they teach you how to monetize in social media, video editing, how to viralize in TikTok, streaming platforms like twitch, gaming, beauty, how to speak well, audio, photography, etc I almost did this because influencers are the new cool kids but I'm studying Game Dev
Still a lot of information left on the table... But I've spent the past 4 yrs learning UE4 now 5. I've learned 2 things I reflect on almost daily.
1. The average gamer has no idea the work that goes into game dev.
2. I know I personally still have loads more to learn.
That said this is exactly the type of content I'd love to see more of. Because efforts like this are important. They shed light on the perceived mysteries surrounding game dev. Thanks for taking the time to put this together.
Have a good one & take care
I am a game developer and I totally regret it
game dev is not play like Masahiro Sakurai said, its a job pays low for huge amount of effort you put in, as a game dev I can evolve my skills to less complex but high paying skills, and trust me when there a lot of problems like bugs and marketing comes you won't enjoy it.
I remember talking to an HM in a renowned gaming enterprise about the comp range. It was way below my expectation, and the only justification he could give me was he sacrificed comp himself for doing something he was passionate about and that he was lucky to have a supportive partner. Hard pass.
Man I can't put it any better but You are Criminally Underrated
So true; I was a major in animation and game development and all, and I had even gotten a job in that field. I can surely say that the work is just so much harder than normal Web development or normal programming in general, but it also pays way less. All you have is your passion, which also starts to decrease as you start to know that you aren't making the creative decisions, but someone else does, and you are nothing but a machine.
I guess it would be like how people who work in factories making crisps (chips in the US) all day, every day, no longer want to eat them or be around them because that's basically the majority of what their day is. I would assume being a game developer for a big-ish company is similar to that.
Luckily, I had an university assignment for creating a VR game involving biometric interfaces. Since both me and my partner had ultrabooks with low-end videocards (they were pretty ok for compiling C++/Rust code and running heavy IDEs though), we had big troubles with working on the models and testing it, so that on final testing I had roughly 5 fps with parts of the body being took apart on moving. Moreover, at the very end I couldn't even compile the lights because UE4 just crashed all the time. Plus extremely tight deadlines before automatic system would make our semester failed. That was a complete nightmare (though quite fun) compared to what I did at the normal job (yes, I also had a fulltime job at the same time) - the most pushy thing I had was to urgently support some API for one platform, and sometimes to fix the crashes (due to my mistake) when normal people would prepare for sleep.
An an Indie developer I feel really bad about this whole situation. I put in alot of hours into my projects, I just feel the labour union need to do more to curb all these issues facing the game industry. This is not encouraging at all. I am not looking to work for any AAA in the fututre.
It pains me, I'm a new grad from Digipen and I really do like making games. And I know, oh I absolutely know the life that awaits me. Hell I got a job right out of school at a "start up" company, did get told to leave after a month because I lack passion(bs), and I saw that it was profit chasing and very long hours, when I was home I was expected to be in an online meeting for 3ish hours to meet with the asia team. But...I want to believe it's not as bad, I'll take being called naive and all but I really do like making games, I'd just hope I would be able to make it a living and this is besides just trying to get in.
You dont make it in life being an employee, you make it by being the owner.
"If you own it you make a lot of money" - George Lucas
Well your video sure hit my pain point. Actually, depending on what you do, modern game development has plenty of overlap with traditional software engineering, I design databases, i handle software security, I do my contiguous integration and delivery pipelines, and sometimes we use aws, azure and other cloud services. You are right in the sense though that the more senior you get the harder it is to escape because while I dabbles in all of the above, they are only auxiliary functions I need to build to deliver my game. I don't really innovate on those processes nor do I improve them beyond industry standards as long as it satisfies users expectation for the most part. Due to increasing awareness on the subject for the most part we get paid a somewhat living wage at least, but boy is the passion tax real, and game development is HARD, it's different, but not any easier. I get questions like why don't you just quit the industry all the time. The truth is, i probably could, and I get a fat increment if I do, the sinister part of the passion trap is that you know this and you hang on for your passion as long as work condition and compensation is not literally living hell.
One clarification on Ubisoft vs Google. I think that particular example may be a little misleading. Software Engineering wages in the US are much higher than in any other country, in general. Also, most Google Engineer positions are in California which has a very high cost of living. With the $170,000 you would live reasonably comfortably but with little margin for luxury.
In general, though, videogame developers do earn less than some other types of developers, mostly because the amount of people wanting to work in the videogame industry is much more than the available places to do it.
Love it--when I was a kid, the video game industry was worth less than 30 billion dollars. Today, its over 200 billion dollar market. All the money went where? Investors? CEOs? Wild
While the general point being made is 100% correct, constantly comparing salaries to Google is ridiculous. Google over pays for talent and their salaries are on the extreme side of generous. Game devs tend to make 20-30k less than they could be making, not 120k less.
Thank you very much for talking about this, an average game developer is much more talented than recently fired "engineers" from Twitter. I respect the fact that the field is filled with passionate people but it's really sad to see them getting screwed over.
They should honestly consider unionizing. If enough engineers at one of these companies got together to fight for better working conditions and higher pay, threatening to go on strike if no improvements were made, they'd have significant leverage over company. You could argue that the companies could just fire all of the employees trying to unionize and just rehire, but this is incredibly expensive and if the timing was right, such as a few weeks before a major release, this wouldn't be feasible. If entry-level Starbucks employees can do it, so can experienced software engineers.
That wouldn't work as they would just simply hire people from other countries while paying slightly less to people in other countries to make the jobs seem amazing in comparison. The major companies would also win as it would be cheaper overall to make games as a result, which only means they would make more money.
If they don't do that, they could just delay all of their games and get new hires up to speed to be able to support any new game. They could then make lesser demanding games and sell it as "listening to gamers" by making smaller but higher quality games without all the trash that they hate.
If successful then gamers would likely not care about the developers that had been fired for wanting to unionise, as with how it seems like developers actively hate their consumer base and no longer care about making good games, gamers wont care about such people losing their jobs when their replacements seem to be releasing good and fun games without any bloat.
I am studying game making. I know about the salary ways long before I study about game making. I can only say to those who complain about their salary is “be realistic man”. Those FAANG make ENORMOUS profit EVERY YEARS. So, instead of wishing your salary to increase, find the solution to increase the profit. The game making process is a mess. An 3A game spent 3-10 years to make to only earn no more than $2B. And that is when your game is good. If your company cannot make enough profit, ok, it’s time to say bye bye.
Also who's to say there isn't a gigantic financial crash and the FAANG stocks go way to zero, basically firing off like 80% of their employees before collapsing, then some other industry like AI instead takes over with newer AI companies paying way way way more.
It's just where the establishment is investing their money. I'd really get into programming AI these days if someone's after a decent life and decent money working for the man these days.
I'm torn by this; you can either work in a soulless big-tech company for more money, or work a lower salary for a game dev, doing stuff you are genuinely passionate about. It's a tough call; you either have to feed your stomach or your soul.
What do you expect? Small developers are being outperformed by big companies that have thousands of developers on the job. It’s not even worth being a small developer because even if your game is good, your going to have to update the game daily to keep player’s interested and that’s not really possible when your the only one working on it.
The tech industry can be challenging for those just starting out, as job postings labeled as "entry-level" often require a wide range of skills and experience, and pay may not reflect the level of skill required. This is particularly true for data analyst positions, which often require a combination of skills such as Data science,Data engineering, Full stack developer, Dev-ops, and Cloud architecture. Additionally, the competitive and fast-paced nature of the tech industry can lead to a toxic work environment.This can make it difficult for many tech workers to thrive, and it's frustrating when companies list irrelevant or unnecessary skills in job postings, which is just stupid. Like if company was going to make a job posting for a taxi driver in Los Angeles driving a Toyota Camry . The requirements would basically be
- A Formula 1 World Championship
- A NASCAR Cup Series
A World Touring Car Cup
- Experince in driving 500+ cars and trucks.
- Knowlege of all driving laws and regulation in every state
-Knowlege of driving 18 wheeler trucks.
-Can speak several languages perficently
-Know every street name in California by heart.
-Bachelor degree but master or phd perfered
-Reverse a linked list
"Entry Level Taxi Driver"
Pay: 15-27 hr(AKA 15 an hour which is minium wage)
No benifits at all.
they created fake demand, these employers
I've been in the game industry and also in the "regular" software engineering industry for a combined total of 17 years, in Italy. I don't see all the difference that you guys have in the US. The game industry pays a bit less on average, but that's basically the only downside that I can speak of. Those who work for more profitable industries, like financial, banking, energy, etc... make usually a bit more but they sometimes do a lot of crunch to stay competitive and take all the bonuses they can, while in the gaming industry I've seen much less crunching and a more relaxed and less competitive work environment. Of course it's just the personal experience of one random guy on the comment section, but it's a data point that you might find interesting
Hello I am also from Italy and I graduated in IT last year, I'm thinking about getting into game development (started learning unity recently), do you have any advice for beginners?
@@CyanLex per imparare a programmare giochi a un buon livello ti consiglio il master che fanno a Verona, ma in realtà puoi anche imparare da autodidatta. Crea e pubblica almeno un piccolo gioco per conto tuo, che vale tantissimo nel tuo CV, e poi cerca una posizione di apprendistato in qualsiasi società di videogiochi, piccola o grande che sia, per fare esperienza e imparare dai colleghi più senior. In bocca al lupo!
@@AntonioBarba_TheKaneB Grazie mille!
Indie game scene is where it's at for enjoying work as a game devs and for finding creative new games as a gamer.
Another thing to note: you will not get credited for making/helping make a game unless you're on the credits screen of the game. This means that if you spent one year on a game, then you decided to switch companies and that game would be developed for 2 more years, you won't get credited for your work, and you can't claim that you've worked on the said game either. Another way for game companies to abuse your passion.
Same in India, apart from IT industry no one pays good enough if you don't have a good degree.
I heard in India the IT ppl are little different . Just what I heard, i think the work culture is bit harsh? Ppl make mistake , if boss find out they will fire u. So ppl often not familiar with something, or have questions, they are trained to not ask to keep mouth shut(i would) cuz d manager so abusive n often fire ppl ? So it’s hard to learn or adept from work for something new n unfamiliar.
just do game dev on the side. Maybe that sounds a bit ridiculous, but there are lots of indie game dev communities and opportunities to follow your passion as a hobby, and if it pans out as an indie dev good for you.
So, I’ll comment after reading the description and before watching the video.
I am an aircraft maintenance engineer, the salary tends to be terrible for the responsibility the we have.
After a while, I found some joy working as a mechanic. We tend to do it with a lot of love and passion and surprisingly, the money ends up being better. Once you get a certification you can really start milking the cow, that is as long as you are a contractor. If you are a permanent employee, sometimes the money is lower than the one of a shelf stacker in your local supermarket. Hours are terrible, you often work away from home, stress is fucking real, and to top it off, mortal dangers and extremely hazardous substances are your daily bread.
The aviation industry does take advantage of this, because to be honest, it’s planes! Who the fuck doesn’t think they are freaking awesome? Well, most of us in the industry go full otaku and poof, get treated like shit by greedy corporations.
At this point, changing to game dev gives me 1 advantage: I can realistically make my own company. If I fail, fuck, I tried. If I make it, hell yeah! And this my friends is heaven in comparison to aircraft maintenance.
There is no way in hell you can manage to get enough money by normal means that can afford to open a company that charges millions for fixing shit.
Now to the video!!!!
No, the conditions grow worse.
Since Free2Play business model is based on addiction that it's extremely appealing to these kind of people who are aware that to have a business based on addiction is a gold mine. It's like Gambling. You have a user base that is never going to give up on your software product, no matter what. They are addicted.
Who are these people that love this system so much? Let's check the traits of these people:
* Lack of empathy.
* Looking for little work and maximum profit.
* Fully aware that the workforce can be manipulated because their passion about game development.
These factors attract one type of a very specific person. They are just the 1% of the human population but they manage to get into key positions of power.
The bad news don't end in game development. Traditional software companies are trying to implement the same emotional manipulation ("we are a family") that game development companies have been using for decades with its employees and consumers. So the awful lazy sociopath bosses are being promoted more than ever everywhere. It's like a cancer that is spreading and nobody can do anything.
The expectation that all software jobs would be paid at the same level as fang companies is simply incorrect. Sure software jobs account for a heftier chunk of the salary budget in all companies but the salary budget is determined based on a company's net worth. For eg., Take2 interactive is one of the largest companies in game development with at least 15 studios and 5000 employees under its belt. Despite being so successful, its net worth is barely hitting $15b. Google on the other hand has a net worth of over $1t. That's almost 1000x the value of T2. In comparison, google probably has 50 times the employee count. It's easy to see why Google can afford such high salaries for it's employees as it has way too high a salary budget.
Just today I've realized that I love game dev as an art, but doing it as a job feels incredibly depressing
As a rule, jobs that are around 'fun' topics are generally underpaid.
As a rule, jobs are generally underpaid*
@@epmcgee Yeah but not in the western world, I bought a $28 gimbal over the holiday. Where I am, a minimum wage earner would pay for that in less than 3 hours.
You could give me 3 years and I'd never be able to make what a minimum wage worker can buy after working just 3 hours.
I think basic home and healthcare costs are way too high and it makes the wages seem low.
@@2beJT yes, other costs were raised while the salaries were not. They haven't been for a long time, but inflation exists.
Again, as a rule jobs are generally underpaid. Even the minimum wage that's apparently so great where you're from. =D but if you're not earning it it can't be minimum wage.
@@epmcgee If I am not earning it it can't be a minimum wage? Are you capable of comprehending how illogical you are by saying such a thing?
What rule book are you citing btw? If most workers are worth more how are they not forming co-ops and doing anything to get this true value in larger numbers than is happening?
I've worked along side plenty of people who weren't worth what they were being paid. I think anyone who has ever worked for any amount of time has seen plenty of that.
A lot of businesses fail and pay workers as they lose money as a business. Those jobs would need to be removed entirely from the economy if workers were paid a real value.
I think, in the western world, if we just keep costs down and innovate on the essentials we are going to see the pay is great. Efficient basic homes that stay cool or warm with little power would go a long way.
Finding ways to provide basic healthcare services for less profit driven reasons would be another big help.
@@2beJT minimum. As in you cannot go below that wage. If you are earning below minimum, it cannot be minimum wage. You claimed you wouldn't be able to earn in years what other minimum wage workers earn in three hours.
It's made minimum wage by the law of that country. If that law is being circumvented then it's not minimum wage anymore since you're earning less. Minimum wage laws apply to every employee registered in that country.
The Western world is a capitalist society, and capitalism solely functions on exploitation. Make the workers work more, and pay them less. This further benefits the rich and affluent who can manipulate the so-called "free markets" to make themselves richer and squeeze every penny out of the already penniless.
A business failing, or potentially failing, has no affect on fair wages. What is happening to that company that it cannot sustain itself and pay fair wages, let alone industry standard which is typically much higher?
Get off your high horse. You're living in a dystopia and your dreams will remain just that. Dreams. They don't provide enough monetary value to exist in a capitalist society. You even touch on it with the lack of affordable healthcare.
That's because they don't care if you die, but they do care if you take any money with you.
I noticed the way he asks for "likes" in every video is so so wrong.
"Drop a like if you hope that conditions at this companies get better"
"Drop a like if you wish to earn an engineer salary"
"Drop a like if you're excited about Apple's new product category"
For which you can hope, wish, get excited and not necessarily like/enjoy a video.
How about "like the video, if you liked the video"?
Me, a game developer watching this on my lunch break. Yeah crunch sucks, we all get unpaid, but the people are great and damn it is super fun to work on games. ;)
I agree with the general message, but comparing an engineer in Canada to an engineer out of USA, specifically California (assuming since Google HQ is in California), sounds a little unfair. California cost of living is known to be much higher than many states and countries. So it makes sense that even in other professions, lets say even in Finance or HR will earn more in California than someone in Texas/Montreal to compliment higher cost for rent/goods.
When I checked myself, an Ubisoft Engineer in USA will make about 130K avg vs the 180K avg Google Salary shown within video. The gap is smaller, but still large enough to be eye opening.
I think I avoided a huge bullet here , I was thinking of going into game dev, but after seeing this video , I’d rathe go into à completely different industry 🥶
Leadership being entirely men, means nothing at all. If they were found to actually discriminate against women, then fine, but them being men normally, means nothing.
Same goes to VFX industry in countries like India its worse!!! i used to work in vfx company in 2012 i was paid $150-160 per month for working for big marvel movies like Iron man 3 and NO things in India arnt cheap because rent was like $80-$120 so i used to live in cheapest $50-$60 dorm room in worse area possible
I think everyone focuses on FAANG and it is just wrong. I have game developer friends who earn more than me as a software engineer. Same amount of experience.
You also stated the truth in it too, when software engineers progress to higher levels they aren't engineers anymore. You are capable of working your life as a software engineer, but you will hit a cap, and that cap in most companies is the same as you describe for a game developer.
Sounds like residency for doctors, 16 hour days and paid $50k a year. But those long days are intentionally there to train us. And even though those 3-7 years are rough, but at least you know it will end.
Yep basically, but permanent haha
I used to work in advertising as an artist, but wanted to switch into game development. I had a couple of interviews at gamedev companies but they all said I had a lack of experience. I started making my own game so I could showcase it as experience after I finished it.
The big issue with making your own game is the lack of funds until the game release. It takes a lot longer than you'd think to complete a game that people will pay for.
I'd like to put a counterpoint here, if I may. I'm in the gamedev industry since 2004 as a game programmer at several different studios, and I still love my job. The comparisons above are a bit unfair. There are tons of business IT companies out there where you have to grind crappy and pointless tasks, where your bosses are awful people and they don't even pay that much, management cares only about the deadlines and profit and don't care about your professional opinion (heard enough stories like that). And there are literally tons of gamedev studios out there, where people are friendly, your expertise is valued, that are led by qualified people. Point is, there are good and bad workplaces in every sector, and it is important to note: not sure how many people will watch the above video in the end, but only a small protion will turn out in either one of the top business or gamedev companies, and the above comparison may lose relevance the further we get from those. Game development is tough, it will test your patience and resolve especially at the end of a project, your work is highly likely to be criticised by the very people you work so hard to entertain. But it is also exciting like nothing else, will constantly test your resourcefulness, your wits, pushing you forward to get better every day. It will allow you to work with an exceptionally colorful bunch of talented people who all do what you do because they share your passion. And yes, whatever you do out there, you can earn good money with it, if you are good at it. Yes, you might have to work for it.
Comparing Google with the gaming industry might not be a good idea.
Google has a lot of business, when it comes to gaming, the customers are very narrowed. Many don't want to buy a high spec CPU or GPU.
From a business perspective, you cannot market a game to every kind of audience.
What I feel indie game dev and game dev by hobby is best rather than getting stuck with corporate who suck out passion and take most of the revenue.
Sometimes hard work has no value. If you need money it all depends on how carefully you do the business.
I know game devs work so hard, literally they do all the work. Google devs not work that much comparing game devs.
Should also consider more the economics of it. Lot of the highest wages are in Big Tech and their revenues are just on another level compared to games companies that don't use the freemium, games-as-a-service model. Developers like Ubisoft that mainly release games with a $60 price tag plus in-game purchases just don't have as big of an addressable market and revenues as they used to.
Would be interesting to see what games devs at King, Supercell and Riot are making considering they have some of the top freemium games at a global scale.
Summary: Don't work at a AAA company.
Or game industry in general
It definitely depends a lot on the company. I've seen some internships that pay $40-50/hour for programmers. That's not Google levels, but it's an internship and most software places pay less than Google. So it's definitely still a problem and game dev pays less, but it's not the most accurate comparison.
I've met some game devs who switched to software instead. The trick is they had to go to something semi-related. For example, one works on graphics chips/software and the other was using Unreal Engine to visualize event venues for an event planning software company. There's a surprising amount of overlap, though there can definitely be issues with switching over.
Wow, such a well-put video, I share the same sentiments because growing up I always admired Ubisoft for Assassin's Creed series, and being a LoL player since its inception and getting a somewhat transparent environment always had given me this notion that working there must be superb, especially considering how everyone at Riot just plays LoL and improves it and I loved that you pointed out, unlike traditional game studios, Riot's problem wasn't because of the corporate environment but because of toxic tropes within the community itself, considering Riot Games were made by passionate gamers themselves and that lawsuit was a good eye opener for them. It's sad how common crunch culture is within the game dev space. Correct me if I am wrong but I have a feeling that it would be rare to get hired there but things at Valve would be great. I don't remember any controversies within Valve and their office structure doesn't really have the traditional hierarchy. Probably the oddest game company ever!
Well i have worked for Google round about 6 years and it was the most boring thing ive ever done.... 90% of your job is automated so youve just to write abit code here and there but most of the time we were playing Ping Pong or refactor some written code from others. Thats it 🤷♂
I met people which were totally excited when they started to work for Google and only 6 months later they were so bored that they played the whole day League of Legends .... So i asked my Senior how the hell this job can be satisfying for someone with ambitions and he told me that people with REAL AMBITIONS working in laboratories on projects for quantum computing and other much higher related stuff than mine. But thats a job for big brains and i shouldnt pay to much attention for that because i will never achive what this people are capable of. He wasnt saying im dumb but to be a big brain means alot more than just write good code and knowing algorithms !
So yeah after 6 years i quitted my job at Google because i was completly frustrated and started to code for some smaller Gamestudios. Gamedevelopment is a completly different task than writing "Companycode" for applications and its the best thing i can imagine ❤To see when a project comes to life is so enjoyable for me ! I realy love it ! Its not that well paid but im fine with it because its my passion 👌Compared to my time at Google it never feels like a "job" its more like a Hobby and this is just great 👍
This is what I needed to hear
Thank you for your insight.
It sounds like a you will regret after 1 year at gaming industry because you can't really afford anything (After the money gone you accumulated from google). I mean if you could have so much time while working, you could become a indie game dev while earning tons of money. Still, its your choice.
You can say this of anything though. Google coders get paid more than most people. It’s like saying if you act in a Tom cruise movie you get paid more than if you act in a tv soap opera. Thinking logically game devs get a decent wage for most people and they aren’t really contributing to anything but a companies profits.
Salary is not the only variable, nor the most important : vacations, working hours, work ethic, etc.
At first, only salary feels tractive but I prefer earning 10 times less If I have a working time of 30/35 hours/week
and 5-8 weeks of payed vacation
Also the stability of the job can impact you massively :
Many companies do massive lays off without compensation. It is better to have a steady job that will protect you and not damage you physical and mental health
Most of these game companies aren't headquartered in the SF Bay Area Ubisoft for example is a French Developer Headquaterd in a Parsian suburb Most of Rockstars development is done in Montrèal San Diego and Glasgow Scotland
I'm a full stack web developer and have coded games in Playcanvas. I would rather code games on the sides than make it full time. Web development employers/projects pays more