I do not understand sailing, I have never sailed, don’t understand the terms but …… I am absolutely loving this AC. ……. The youth AC was just amazing and all the main races of the AC right from the pre regatta I have not missed a single race. It’s just amazing, and today topped it all, just spectacular. The engineering , the science and just the spectacle is incredible … love it . I am also enjoy your analysis videos even if difficult to understand for a non sailor …. By the way, I am a cyclist so understand the amazing feats and contribution of the cyclors
I'm with you. Don't understand it but loving it. I got to see AC in person while working in Bermuda for a couple weeks in 17 and was just amazed. Check out the youth cup races if you haven't. Super fun.
Luna Rossa has had penalties in the round robin for intersecting the other boat boundaries by a few centimeters, they learnt the lesson and this time they didn't...!!!!!...thanks MOZZY
For me, this was the most exciting match race in the last 10 years of AC. Good that it wasn't ruined by penalty calls. I understand risks and safety, but this is supposed to be the pinnacle of sail racing and not a leisure yachting, what most of those match races up to now were. This was racing, this was fun to watch.
8:45 good analysis, one correction though. There are two trapezoids. Platform boundary is at the corner of the transom indeed, but for the keep clear definition another trapezoid is used which is two meters wider, called Keep Clear Boundary. For the purpose of rule 11 or 12 here, the keep clear boundary is used, which would be intersected when boats bowsprit and transom are 4 m away. If there is such intersection then one of the boats have to be penalized, because this is equivalent of the contact. Definitions of the AC RRS contain precise measurements of both boundaries (trapezoids). Cheers, keep up good work with the channel, it is a must watch for me.
At such high speeds, with very rapidly changing aproaches/angles, having such (relatively) small trapezoids isn't the greatest idea - as collisions would be catastrophic. I suggest a better solution would be for the area of the trapezoids to be varied proportionally to the speed of the vessel...
@@neilhillier7470 interesting suggestion 🤔 … in fact extra margin (2 meter) is the same for AC40 and AC75, so the keep clear boundary size in the AC rules is not dependent by the size of the boat either
@neilhillier7470= Unfortunately not practical. The helmsman has got visual references from experience ; his muscle memory is trained for them ; variable references (according to speed) would not work in such a competitive regatta where everything is pushed to the limit.
@@BRMCaptChaos The thing is, the Visual Eye software we're seeing here is consumer grade, working with impoverished bandwidths (as we see with the degradation and artefacts on Mozzy's visuals). The umpire boats have software which is industrial strength and fed real-time data at very high bandwidth, producing ultra-high res, clinically clean graphics. Their monitors provide very accurate depictions of the platform and keep-clear trapezoids and overlap lines accurate to the centimetre, and the umpires can interrogate the trig calculation kernel directly to measure exactly when and by how much those shapes and lines intersect, at very high data refresh rates as well as resolution. Similarly with the true wind direction relative to each boat.
No one should accuse you of bias, you are a class act. A lot of Luna Rossa fans come here first not on italian media. EDIT: I wonder how dimensionally accurate these 3d models are!
I expect ETNZ to be considerably faster come race time they even said they were running older sails and foils in round one and they were still winning more than they lost.
@@bobdillon1138 None of them are standing still. However racing like LRPP and INEOS are doing is rather better preparation than ETNZ are getting. It takes both boat AND crew to win these AC challenges. V exciting as it is poised right now.
Excellent video. I didn't think there was any way it could be a close call for the umpire. Especially the pre-start one. I agree the rules seem to invite a collision to get the penalty.
This video and the planet sail video game help explain the rules which is super helpful. I wonder whether they should have a flag / light where they double the diamond and extend the ghost boat when it’s over X knots and sea state to keep the boats further apart in terms of penalty zones.
This was extremely informative, interesting and well explained! It taught me some important things about the racing rules in general as well as what happened in the race. Great vieo!
The incident before the start was very close and the umpires have given Luna Rossa the benefit, despite them being very aggressive. It seems as though we then tried too hard to establish further incidents in order to be able to protest. In practice both of these caused us to loose ground, and hence loose the race. These boats are capable travelling at such speeds that keeping clear and maintaining max speed gives you the better advantage. So IMO we lost out trying to be a little too clever and should avoid sailing so close in future races
The contrast in the tone and emotion of the on board communications between the two boats was remarkable. No doubt INEOS were upset with LR and the umpires, as well as the pressure of being behind in the race, but boy oh boy that boat sounds a lot more intense and emotional than the others.
Thank you, Mozzy Sail, for the expertise and clarity with which you explained the umpires' decisions in the latest race between Luna Rossa and Ineos Britannia. It's truly satisfying to see so many comments from genuine sailing enthusiasts, where the support for one team or the other doesn't overshadow the love for the truth and the appreciation of a sporting event that has no precedent in terms of spectacle and the celebration of the highest level of sailing worldwide!
The way I read it in the Pre Start LRPP were clear ahead when they initiated the gybe. Ineos initiated a split second later and only after the boats began to turn did Ineos establish an overlap but as you say it’s a tight call and I believe the umpire’s call was correct
The only reason they were gybed is because they had already bore away into the water that ineos would have been in had they not born off to avoid collision
@@Alex-md6bu they both had to get back to the start line by either tacking or gybing. Ben knew it. Fact is no overlap existed when the gybe started so LRPP did not infringe at that point.
@@RoryRamsdenyou keep mentioning gybe starting. What relevance does that have? Rule 13.2 defines which gybe they are on. And effectively the moment rights change. It turns out, 13.2 is different for AC compared to normal match racing.
When the windward boat changes direction and by its change of direction creates an overlap, there is no delay in the application of windward/leeward rule. It is different if the boat from behind and leeward creates an overlap. Here LRPP had absolutely no margin and in normal racing rules, it is 100% a penalty for LRPP. Those trapezoid are really borderline stupid IMO
@@nicolasgoyard7998 " *Those trapezoid* " That's not the problem. They had wider trapezoids for overlap, which did happen. It's just that windward/leeward is established based on wind direction, which is not measured where the boats physically are, but somewhere else. If I'm not wrong, then it's a very controversial rule, when split second decisions do matter. How would Ben know what is the direction of "umpire wind" and if LR is to the windward or leeward? He looked at the sails and took his chances.
I appreciate your contributions to this Cup Mossy Sails. It's helping me squeeze the most out of this series...... I reckon this one is way more interesting than the last, such a good choice on NZ'ds part to have it in Barcelona. The AC40's , E-series, A bit clever I recon on lots of levels.... .
LR supporter here, great content, a pleasure to watch you. There is something odd with penalties in this AC. LR was penalized twice for "ducking too close" previously but got away with this brutal gybe which looked really like a slumdunk penalty to me when watching live. The umpires just seem to look only at the "diamonds" and not whether the RoW boat is left free to hold course.
Excellent point. I thought the LR ducks on ETNZ were also suspect. There is no bias here, LR were unfortunate then, Ineos was unfortunate today in my view.
The boat following must not be forced to respond until the jybe is completed. Once jybe is completed the following boat must be given the opportunity to avoid collision. The boats are much more manoeuvrable than they look and those conditions were met. There really isn't a safety issue until rudders start to ventilate and the boats go into slides but if you set up the rules to take that possibility into account there would hardly be any match racing at all.
@@giovannigaleotti2623 I am surprised there has been little discussion of this point. Just because a collision was avoided (by some very smart sailing) doesn't mean that the following boat was given the opportunity to avoid a collision. Similarly i am surprised Alinghi didnt get a penalty against INEOS in their prestart incident.
Great analysis Mozzy! Just to add my piece, I think both teams need to be more aware of the implications of rule 16 (ROW boat changing course), and that could be why every protest was given no penalty today. INEOS tended to be short and sharp with their luffs (or turning down to block LR's gybe), essentially handing LR a 'get out of jail free' card every time INEOS changed course. Cheers
interesting. i have seen little discussion on 15 and 16.1 up until now. I would have given LRPP a penalty for not giving Ineos time and opportunity to keep clear as they gybed onto Stbd so I think that could go both ways !
Great analysis on what were maybe 50/50 calls. As a neutral (ETNZ) fan for this race I think there should be clear evidence before a penalty is awarded otherwise the lottery of close penalties might decide a race. As per another comment here, I think a poor mark rounding by Ineos is what cost them this race. These teams are clearly closely matched, keep the exciting racing coming!
I agree with your point on the consistently bad mark rounding by INEOS. I would like to see a graphic comparison of the trail arc of INEOS vs LRPP around the marks. I think INEOS go far to deep and wide at each mark. Whereas, LRPP start their turn a lot earlier and are closer to the mark.
If penalties are not awarded, then great races like this will not happen because it’s not worth it to the following boat. The lesson will be that it’s better to be dull and just go for nothing but VMG. Nobody wants that.
Cheers Mozzy. I can see there being a collision before the end of the LV final unless things get clarified which could be a huge shame for the cup not to mention potentially lethal. These boats don't have crash structures in and haven't to my knowledge been designed for collisions. So regardless of who had priority it could have been a horrific incident if ineos had t-boned luna rossa today as pretty sure the bow at that speed could puncture a crew cockpit.
When I first saw the replay of that incident before the start I really did think that Ineos had been hard done by and I could understand why Ben was so upset for the rest of the race, so it was good of you to clarify that difference in the rules for this regatta. I couldn't really see much in those other two incidents though and I think that with all the tools they have at their disposal, the umps should be pretty spot on with those more run of the mill type calls. The main thing that we should want out of the umpires is consistency and it seems to me that they're doing a pretty good job of that thus far.
Well done. Really really close. Unless you’ve raced at those speeds it’s hard to grasp what this really looks like up close on the actual boats. I race at one third to half as fast as these AC boats and those distances you’re analyzing are tiny at my speed. Phenomenal crew work in these two AC boats.
Great analysis, I'm LRPP fan (obviously), but, I think that the 1st protest event is really tricky. I personally didn't see the LRPP mainsail jibing so I thought LRPP had to be penalized, but your analysis highlighted that LRPP have Jibed despite the mainsail wasn't on stbd tack. Dramatic job from the umpires. The 2nd and 3rd event...well It seemed that Ainsle wanted, giving all his efforts, to force a penalty, but maybe no polygon overlapping occurred...IMHO... really tricky situations could have been three penalties or zero. Happened zero...
Watch the "Inside Tack" from GB covering that race. Their analysis for the second "hook" opportunity, by the other trimmer on the INEOS boat in that race, was that it seemed to him as if despite having a clear overlap, Dylan did not feel confident to luff and force the penalty, because the rudder was on the slippery edge of ventilating at the exact moment when they needed to luff, and if it had lost its grip on the water there would have been an uncontrollable round-up and almost certainly a collision. I thought that their comments about the umpiring were very fair, and they all felt that despite them losing, it had been a truly great race. One question they answered (of several interesting ones) was whether the umpires have comms from the boats. The answer is that yes, two umpires are assigned to exclusively monitor that channel, one for each boat, so they can give their colleagues some warning of impending close manoeuvres so they can intensify their focus and deliver a more timely verdict. This seems like a good idea, because it decouples the people analysing the rules situation from being influenced by anything said on board (at least until after the decision is made). The umpires have live video from eight cameras, and can simultaneously scroll and scrub through the footage in sync with the data and the high resolution 2D plan view graphics (accurate to the cm)
After bad luck in race 3 and the fact that UK did not propose a gentlemen agreement to wait for LRPP (I do not find it offensive at all as many fellow Italians) I was expecting elbows out full blast. Thank you Mozzy for the great and always unbiased content!!!
I am no expert and not impartial, but Ineos seemed to hunt for penalties rather than race, often agitated and screaming. Luna Rossa seemed more focused on getting better defensive angles, but also chose to just let the wind, sails and foils do their job. Beautiful challenge, beautiful boats, especially LRPP. 😂
You’re right, you’re not an expert. Absolutely, if you are behind in the race you will seek the penalty to get in front. The precise rules exist to allow and promote this.
@@BRMCaptChaos You forgot, I'm not impartial... and I somehow guess you aren't either. Considering also the Youth Race great victory, it seems LRPP has not only the better looking boat, but also a more collected attitude. Looking forward to other such battles. Enjoy! Cheers
I actually had a same feeling INEOS might have tried their best to hunt potential protests, which may be one of several tactics, and LRPP has been really aggressive to make engagement. Full denial was indeed impressive and this video figured out the data around it. Good to watch.
Thank you, Tom. Lunar Rossa's speed off the start line gave it the edge on the first windward leg, almost 1.5 knots faster. Officiating in the America’s Cup is tough as the boats are traveling at 50knts-it's like officiating cricket at 10x the normal speed! They may have to have instant replays for the Umpires and timing to the millisecond!
First off, I couldn't make the call after re-watching the footage a number of times. Your analysis showed exactly how close it was. Yep, those are some cool teams out there but that's why they're sailing the AC75s. We definitely don't want contact at 40kts in these machines, and I think that last incident was close enough for a valid protest.
Good show and close racing. I believe the umpires got it right. Kiwis know all about whinging poms. When a plane load of poms land at the airport, you can tell they're poms because the plane is still whining even after the motors are turned off.
Great breakdown, thank you. My neighbours probably thought I was insane as I was shouting "up! up!" out in my office in the middle of the day 😂 In real time, two of those felt like penalties to me. On reflection, and with the graphics, I'm down to one. But you do have to trust that the umpires have all this data available in real time and as we saw with the delays to wind, it's not a personal decision. It's data driven. Either way, agreed that this is fantastic match racing - finally! And far better than I was expecting in these boats. Looking forward to spending this week with my Italian colleague 😁
I don't think you can say that, that's not what sport is like. Any mistake before the finale can have a come back. Come backs are one thing that make sport truly great.
Assuming everything played out similarly after the rounding I totally agree. Another thing, the commentator, Glen, kept remarking about was GB's open jib during the roundings and was speculating why when that could cost them some speed.
@@Sportsfan1042 True. It's wrong to say they lost the race there. They lost the ability to challenge. Catching LR earlier wouldn't have guaranteed a win, it would have pressured LR to defend, which they now didn't have to do.
With the speeds and apparent wind angles the lead boat holds the cards all the way round the race course, so it makes sense that the trailing boat has to be more aggressive. In Race one INEOS lost out massively by sailing conservatively and hoping to capitalise on a mistake by the leader that never happened. I feel like the lesson learned from today is that if you want a "hook" to stick you basically need to hit the other boat, so I guess that's what we'll see soon
In sailing under the RRS, I believe the situation would fall under rule 15 (I think): when acquiring right of way, a boat shall give time and opportunity (room) to keep clear in a seamanlike manner. I know in match racing umpires expect the sailors to react quicker than in fleet racing, but I would be interested in whether the AC rules include something similar.
You are right about safety. It appears that the only way to be sure of a right of way decision is to risk actual collision. With 7 tonne boats at 40knots plus this is very scary.
Spitthil and Kecko (?) - like Burling and Tuke - have been doing this for many years. Today we saw the benefits of that kind of knowledge. UK’s after guard are still beginners in this kind of sailing.
great analysis as usual Tom. We also have to understand that the defense from LR was made even more difficult since their mainsail was not the one they had in mind for that kind of wind
I think LR tested these rules against Alinghi and ETNZ in the preliminary regattas, it seemed to me they were looking for a penalty on purpose, to understand how much they could push before being penalized.
Interesting take. The penalties they received against ETNZ in the preliminary final didn't look as close as these incidents. Comparison would be interesting
@@mattblakey The trapezoids overlapped in the preliminary races. Even on Virtual Eye (as you can verify, it's available to all), and the umpires have much better software.
I think so as well, I remember many people saying like "oh they're losing all the regattas for penalties" and I think they were just testing how strict the umpires were and what they could get away with in races that didn't matter to the score
Nice break down mate. Great racing. A tap would be catastrophe. I think it's great racing and finally we are competitive so just happy for that. Jimmy and check will take some beating though!
I don’t know enough to know if any of the incidents should have been penalties. Thankful that you created this video to provide some analysis since the race broadcast itself barely touched them.
Thank you Mozzy for the precious analysis you have accustomed us to. My 2 cents: YES the prestart would always have been penalty in a dislocant match reace boat and NO it is not penalty in a flying match race boat applying the trapezoid interference rule. YES this trapezoid rule is definitely really dangerous 'cause (IMHO) of the trapezoid current dimensions, really tight related to these 50 knts speed boats. I remember that LR team itself has been really surprised couple of times during round robin races, putting a pair of protest call, declared no-penalty for trapezoid non interference. There is a high risk that one team one of these race push the boat one meter over, too late to avoiding the crash.
As you say, all 3 situations were really close. And the umpires have to make a split second decision. I think their rule of thumb is either to be 100% sure or else not intervene at all
They are not allowed to decide whether to intervene (in the sense I understand the word). They produce a verdict only as the result of a protest. And it might go against the boat filing the protest. But what you say may be substantially true, if by 'intervene' you mean 'announce a penalty'. [Qualifier: I need to check: it may be that if the clearance diamonds intersect they are required to intervene, even if not called on?]
Thank you for this, it's very helpful. My position is that if the right of way boat needs to sail dangerously to get a penalty call, then the inevitable eventual collision will be on the umpires and rules writers (which challenger helped draft the rules again‽) for not respecting the right of way boat's duty to avoid a collision. The thing that surprises me is that a manoeuvring boat doesn't lose rights until the completion of the manoeuvre. It's such a standard part of normal rules and we see the dangerous position the boats are in without it.
Awesome racing and great analysis Mozzy. I don’t agree with your assertion that the bow/ stern overlap represents danger on these boats - especially when they are both on Port line astern. The diamonds do a good job of covering the risk in these circumstances. The other issue is how far windward Luna Rosa is on both examples. I am sure the umpires have software which simulates the protesting boat proceeding with their luff. And I am equally sure that the Windward boat would have been gone by the time they intersected Luna Rosa’s stern. Deep down Sir Ben knew he wasn’t high enough and that he was losing his speed differential. Close but no cigar. Another feature to me was just how bloody fast Britannia was downwind and upwind! I cannot wait for the next race!
IN the second hook they had plenty of overlap but Dylan wisely decided not to luff (perhaps because the rudder was one the point of washing out), and Ainslie for once kept his trap shut (he cannot see across the boat)
Totally agree. Rules interpretation is making an accident more likely. That being said (as in Rugby) you have to play smart and adjust to how the rules are being played on the day. Think Ben was totally right in the press conference. Probably would have won if INEOS had been less racy. But what a race!!!
Adjusting to the rules is important but so is staying alive. I think Ineos are getting the balance about right, but I'm not sure the rules have the same respect for human life as the sailors and it might mean whoever is willing to risk it more will get the umpire decisions
@@Stephendenham Rugby is completely different. The refs have discretion. Part of their job is to prevent injuries. In Am Cup the decisions are data driven and the rules are unambiguous. The AmCup umpires decide on the truth of accusations that the other boat infringed the rules to improve their position. (The purpose of the rules is to fairly allocate wins). The prevention of injuries (and damage to the boats) is the job of the teams. The situations are too dangerous, varied, uncontrolled and nuanced for this to be delegated to non-participants. It would be a bit like charging Italian earthquake scientists who've made risk assessments with murder, after a major quake the public was not expecting.
!00% correct, after watching three times, I believe you nailed it and you are right about the danger in the calls. We don't want to see an accident at these speeds, sailors can get hurt, says the guy who never wore anything but a team shirt and ran around at 22 to 28 in Formula 40 and every leag
Great comments. I guess the umpires have plenty of data that none of us have and likely made the right calls. A great race, hopefully more to come. Both teams are closely matched and hopefully we get all the way to a 7-6 result. The winners will need all the practice they can get in order to face ETNZ who are still likely in a class of their own.
Spitthil and Kecko (?) - like Burling and Tuke - have been doing this for many years. Today we saw the benefits of that close relationship. Ainsley’s still a beginner in this kind of sailing.
Bravo Mozzi! I believe the pre-start situation was a matter of millimeters and milliseconds, so for you and us there is the "fan effect" and we tend to give the reason to our favorite team. I agree with you, the rules by the computers are kind of too difficult to be implemented on while sailing at 40+ knots of speed. There should be some human interpretation (to evaluate the too close, too risky) rather than to go by only the overlap of the diamonds..... this diamond overlap could really bring the boats too close and pose a risk of injury or damage....
Personally, I think they need to rewrite the entire rulebook for foiling boats. Mainly due to closing speeds and risk to life. In monohulls, cats and tris everything is pretty manageable but at 35+ knots its just too much judge on such fine margins. I don't want to see people get seriously injured beacuse of a OTW rule interpretation and not having enough time to divert course in a safe manner. What are peoples thoughts on this?
@jomgelborn no need for name calling. This was a civil, sensible question, that deserves a similar response. If you've got nothing to add, then maybe keep quiet?
It's a hard one. The difficulty is that the umpires have to make a quick ruling. You did a great a great job explaining everything, but it took quite some time for you to go through everything. Im just not sure? I hope that these two boats dont actually collide, and after today, I think its actually possible? I really enjoy your reports, thank you.
I thought GBR had a few instances where a bit more patience would have been advantageous. One Mozzy pointed out. Twice it seemed they were making gains on a particular tack/gybe, with the simulation showing gains if they went to the boundary, and they tacked/gybed away from what appeared to be favored. At least it looked that way to me. As for the penalties, they were all very close, although the one in the prestart looked a bit dangerous. I didn't realize they didn't need to fill the sails to complete the maneuver!
Great recap of the incidents. The damage these boats can cause at these speeds in a collision would probably put an end to the racing so a get behind the other boat penalty would make sense if the leeward boat overlaps within 5 metres distance without even having to head up.
Man, it was such exciting a race. The teams are really even, winning the LVC will be definitely a really close thing. Who is going to make less mistakes will be the challenger..
The resolution of the overlap rule is quite clear. The leeward boat has to clear its wind so either of the boats have to tack. If the windward boat refuses to tack, they are in fact saying there is no overlap. Therefore the leeward boat HAS to tack. If the leeward boat tacks and hits the windward boat it proves it did have an overlap. Otherwise, the leeward boat tacks and clears the windward boat then no penalty.
Weather looks calm for the last two days of LV Cup so as it looks like Ineos is better in lighter air they might be 6 down but will come through in the last two days to become the challenger for the auld mug AC
Hi Love the detail. Just one point, the current series is not the Americas cup. That comes later. This is the LV cup series to find challenger for the AC. This is a quote from the great AC skipper DC. But he is correct the AC term is used to loosely. But I do enjoy the videos and the work you do.
this video analysis is great and non-biased (from someone who has no bias in the finals.) from a layman's point of view, the rules need to change - the margin between a penalty and a catastrophic collision seems... marginal - the trapezoids are pretty much on the boats. Imagine foils tangling at those speeds. What a race! Only let down was the grey area in the rule. Good luck Ineos and LR
This was one of the greatest matches to watch. Personally I feel the umpires made the right call. At this level of racing the umpires need to let the boats sail. The outcome needs to be determined on the water and not in the protest room. Great work by Mozzy on the graphics. This has taken bar karate to a whole new level. While informative I don't this the resolution is good enough to determine the outcome of the race. You can see the weird artifacts on the screen. It is my understanding the umpires have better tools on the water. I trust their judgment on the water. Ineos will have another crack at them in what hopefully will be more great racing.
On the pre-start green flag, it also looked like BRI was too far to leeward to justify a penalty. How close do they need to be? On the 2nd and 3rd, I think you are correct they needed to get a little more overlap before pushing
Regarding the prestart alleged penalty, the British were maneuvering when at the time of the protest, so no penalty is applicable, regardless of trapezoids or other rules
Something that was consistent across all three incidents was that the overlap was made from cleasr astern. Haven't kept up with the rules so unsure of the current application of room and opportunity, but it could have have an impact. I dont think you considered that. Many comments here discuss the keep clear box, but by the same token in respect to the speeds of the boats perhaps they are given more time to respond. Certainly in the first incident, GBR gybed off pretty quickly, perhaps prior to ITA being given time to respond which would be an obvious green.
Sono un tifoso di luna rossa e devo ammettere che a parti invertite, non sarei stato contento degli umpires. Luna Rossa, aveva rotto 2 stecche, che avevano bucato la randa, poi sono stati costretti a montare una randa da vento leggero. Una delle regate più bella che abbia mai visto. Ammiro la tua sportività, in fondo sei inglese, ed abbiamo da imparare, sotto quello aspetto.
Aren't we truly spoilt to have such a fantastic regatta, umpires are always the weak link in hi pressure sports. I have no idea if they got it right, but gee it's awesome viewing.
For what i saw, ineos overlap lrpp from windward, RRS 11 in favour of lrpp. They were nearly parallel to starting line, i.e. ineos windward lrpp downwind, though position of mainsails looks reverse.
Wow, so good to see the data and models that the umpires presumably use plus the (understandabl) slightly different rules used for rights of way. If the decision on the gybe 36 seconds before the start is so hard to call surly Luna Rosa get it as Ineos are claiming a change of rights - as a Brit I don’t say that lightly.
I think this is a great analysis of why foilers arent good for match racing. The double edged sword is if the rules are written to keep the boats well apart then strategies would change to the point its not match racing.
The Brits are trying to initiate these penalties. Even Ben Ainslie said they would have been better off sailing their own race and he’s right. It’s clear they have the fastest boat. If they sail clean they will win this race to seven. However Ben Ainslie wants to prove he is “ The smartest guy in the room” and it’s this attitude that is costing them. They have lost a few races in this competition due to their aggression. They’ve incurred unforced boundary penalties which to my mind are inexcusable. Sail clean, stay out of trouble and the Brits will win easily. Sail your own race!
@@96POR Yes, that was the dockside rumour in '21.The thing is, they weren't specifically moding the boat for the upper wind range, it was merely a by-product of having the smallest foils in the fleet & the Auckland course being relatively flat at the upper end.
Everyone needs to understand that the sail positions cannot be used as evidence when it comes to port/starboard as the boats move and turn faster than wind. It would seem to me that the turning of the boat creates an apparent wind which keeps the main sail filled through the gybe. Also, everyone needs to count the number of times that the commentators repeat the phrase "challenger of record Ineos Britannia". It means that Ben Ainslie was there making the rules so stop bitching when they're being applied. 😂
Your final point is cogent and compelling, I reckon. On your second point, I had the same notion, but when I think more about it, the turning of the boat (assuming it pivots approximately about the some point on a line joining the main foils) would have the opposite effect, causing the main (which is aft of the pivot point) to backwind. I think you are probably right that it results from the turn, but my hunch (which I have not had time to consider more carefully) is that the turn is causing a centrifugal force (in the frame of reference of the boat) throwing the heavy skins of the sail to the outside of the turn. The sailors are certainly being thrown that way, sometimes at 1G or more in fast, tight turns. This gybe turn was quite fast but not very tight radius, but even 0.2G could easily delay the sail filling when the apparent wind has the sail effectively in irons - as I'm sure you will realise but others may not, the apparent wind when these boats are foiling goes around the front of the boat even in a gybe, unless they screw it up -- which Prada presumably did to break several battens eariler the same day -- it seems likely the two skins got blown apart because the boatspeed dropped below the true wind speed.
@@brianhard1841 Give-way penalties have always been a part of the sport. Whether these particular incidents should have been penalties or not will be a source of debate for a long time. Regardless, it was an exciting race and my general opinion is one of “less is more” when it comes to umpire decisions.
Could you do the same analysis with the more than many situations on the previous races when LR protests didn't get through? That would be welcome. Thank you!
Great analysis - been waiting for this. Do you every get access to the umpires' trapezoids and other data such as the overlap line? Clearly, we need to accept their instant call as we would a football ref.
Hey mozzie, I think your spot on with questioning the calls made, with all the speed that they roast around the course you might think that with technology should be analysed by computers and geometry and take human error out of the equation.personally I think the britz were robbed in those calls! Happy sailing
Firstly we need umpires who understand the special rules for AC and the nature of the boats and we have to trust their calls. The racing has been closer than anyone anticipated,I think, all at amazing speeds which is beyond the comprehension of the vast majority of sailors. Because of the speeds I think trying to use match racing tactics too hard is a mistake and wonder if INEOS is going to learn from this. That said this is more entertaining than anyone could have hoped for and the boat speeds seem to be so even - awesome stuff.
I do not understand sailing, I have never sailed, don’t understand the terms but …… I am absolutely loving this AC. ……. The youth AC was just amazing and all the main races of the AC right from the pre regatta I have not missed a single race. It’s just amazing, and today topped it all, just spectacular. The engineering , the science and just the spectacle is incredible … love it . I am also enjoy your analysis videos even if difficult to understand for a non sailor …. By the way, I am a cyclist so understand the amazing feats and contribution of the cyclors
I'm with you. Don't understand it but loving it. I got to see AC in person while working in Bermuda for a couple weeks in 17 and was just amazed. Check out the youth cup races if you haven't. Super fun.
I knew nothing about sailing i hated it until i started watching the AC once the technology,graphics and racing got me.
Luna Rossa has had penalties in the round robin for intersecting the other boat boundaries by a few centimeters, they learnt the lesson and this time they didn't...!!!!!...thanks MOZZY
For me, this was the most exciting match race in the last 10 years of AC. Good that it wasn't ruined by penalty calls. I understand risks and safety, but this is supposed to be the pinnacle of sail racing and not a leisure yachting, what most of those match races up to now were. This was racing, this was fun to watch.
8:45 good analysis, one correction though. There are two trapezoids. Platform boundary is at the corner of the transom indeed, but for the keep clear definition another trapezoid is used which is two meters wider, called Keep Clear Boundary. For the purpose of rule 11 or 12 here, the keep clear boundary is used, which would be intersected when boats bowsprit and transom are 4 m away. If there is such intersection then one of the boats have to be penalized, because this is equivalent of the contact. Definitions of the AC RRS contain precise measurements of both boundaries (trapezoids). Cheers, keep up good work with the channel, it is a must watch for me.
At such high speeds, with very rapidly changing aproaches/angles, having such (relatively) small trapezoids isn't the greatest idea - as collisions would be catastrophic. I suggest a better solution would be for the area of the trapezoids to be varied proportionally to the speed of the vessel...
@@neilhillier7470 interesting suggestion 🤔 … in fact extra margin (2 meter) is the same for AC40 and AC75, so the keep clear boundary size in the AC rules is not dependent by the size of the boat either
@neilhillier7470= Unfortunately not practical. The helmsman has got visual references from experience ; his muscle memory is trained for them ; variable references (according to speed) would not work in such a competitive regatta where everything is pushed to the limit.
So even more of a penalty then.
@@BRMCaptChaos The thing is, the Visual Eye software we're seeing here is consumer grade, working with impoverished bandwidths (as we see with the degradation and artefacts on Mozzy's visuals). The umpire boats have software which is industrial strength and fed real-time data at very high bandwidth, producing ultra-high res, clinically clean graphics. Their monitors provide very accurate depictions of the platform and keep-clear trapezoids and overlap lines accurate to the centimetre, and the umpires can interrogate the trig calculation kernel directly to measure exactly when and by how much those shapes and lines intersect, at very high data refresh rates as well as resolution. Similarly with the true wind direction relative to each boat.
No one should accuse you of bias, you are a class act. A lot of Luna Rossa fans come here first not on italian media. EDIT: I wonder how dimensionally accurate these 3d models are!
Correct. I'm one of them 😀
Mee too
count me too!
Italian media cannot be trusted for anything let alone AC analysis
Same
Racing was excellent today. If anyone should be concerned about today's display from both crews it is ETNZ.
I expect ETNZ to be considerably faster come race time
they even said they were running older sails and foils in round one
and they were still winning more than they lost.
@@bobdillon1138 None of them are standing still. However racing like LRPP and INEOS are doing is rather better preparation than ETNZ are getting. It takes both boat AND crew to win these AC challenges. V exciting as it is poised right now.
@@bobdillon1138without a doubt, it will be close.
@@GordonjSmith1 Story of ETNZ life, pity we are talking of two teams with pedigree of more failure then success
Nah, why do you think TNZ picked October for the AC? They always have boats that do well in stronger winds...
Thank you! Ineos inside tack has been a great debrief as well!
Excellent video. I didn't think there was any way it could be a close call for the umpire. Especially the pre-start one. I agree the rules seem to invite a collision to get the penalty.
This video and the planet sail video game help explain the rules which is super helpful. I wonder whether they should have a flag / light where they double the diamond and extend the ghost boat when it’s over X knots and sea state to keep the boats further apart in terms of penalty zones.
This was extremely informative, interesting and well explained! It taught me some important things about the racing rules in general as well as what happened in the race. Great vieo!
The incident before the start was very close and the umpires have given Luna Rossa the benefit, despite them being very aggressive. It seems as though we then tried too hard to establish further incidents in order to be able to protest. In practice both of these caused us to loose ground, and hence loose the race. These boats are capable travelling at such speeds that keeping clear and maintaining max speed gives you the better advantage. So IMO we lost out trying to be a little too clever and should avoid sailing so close in future races
The contrast in the tone and emotion of the on board communications between the two boats was remarkable.
No doubt INEOS were upset with LR and the umpires, as well as the pressure of being behind in the race, but boy oh boy that boat sounds a lot more intense and emotional than the others.
The calmer crew is always the better crew.
lol yep, always is when Ben’s around. He’s always whinging
@@TheUltimateWriterNZ Yep, agree for once we couldn't hear the whining of the hydraulic pressure system over the whining of Ainsley.
@@digmort Makes a change from spitill protesting all the time 🤣
@@MegaDirtyberty Haha, yeh, good point and very true.😂
Thank you, Mozzy Sail, for the expertise and clarity with which you explained the umpires' decisions in the latest race between Luna Rossa and Ineos Britannia. It's truly satisfying to see so many comments from genuine sailing enthusiasts, where the support for one team or the other doesn't overshadow the love for the truth and the appreciation of a sporting event that has no precedent in terms of spectacle and the celebration of the highest level of sailing worldwide!
Great video - thanks! Ben and the Brit Box going for the knife but you have to admire the ice cold Italians!
The way I read it in the Pre Start LRPP were clear ahead when they initiated the gybe. Ineos initiated a split second later and only after the boats began to turn did Ineos establish an overlap but as you say it’s a tight call and I believe the umpire’s call was correct
The only reason they were gybed is because they had already bore away into the water that ineos would have been in had they not born off to avoid collision
@@Alex-md6bu they both had to get back to the start line by either tacking or gybing. Ben knew it. Fact is no overlap existed when the gybe started so LRPP did not infringe at that point.
@@RoryRamsdenyou keep mentioning gybe starting. What relevance does that have? Rule 13.2 defines which gybe they are on. And effectively the moment rights change. It turns out, 13.2 is different for AC compared to normal match racing.
When the windward boat changes direction and by its change of direction creates an overlap, there is no delay in the application of windward/leeward rule. It is different if the boat from behind and leeward creates an overlap. Here LRPP had absolutely no margin and in normal racing rules, it is 100% a penalty for LRPP. Those trapezoid are really borderline stupid IMO
@@nicolasgoyard7998 " *Those trapezoid* "
That's not the problem. They had wider trapezoids for overlap, which did happen. It's just that windward/leeward is established based on wind direction, which is not measured where the boats physically are, but somewhere else.
If I'm not wrong, then it's a very controversial rule, when split second decisions do matter. How would Ben know what is the direction of "umpire wind" and if LR is to the windward or leeward? He looked at the sails and took his chances.
I appreciate your contributions to this Cup Mossy Sails.
It's helping me squeeze the most out of this series......
I reckon this one is way more interesting than the last, such a good choice on NZ'ds part to have it in Barcelona. The AC40's , E-series, A bit clever I recon on lots of levels.... .
LR supporter here, great content, a pleasure to watch you. There is something odd with penalties in this AC. LR was penalized twice for "ducking too close" previously but got away with this brutal gybe which looked really like a slumdunk penalty to me when watching live. The umpires just seem to look only at the "diamonds" and not whether the RoW boat is left free to hold course.
Excellent point. I thought the LR ducks on ETNZ were also suspect. There is no bias here, LR were unfortunate then, Ineos was unfortunate today in my view.
Seems like those diamonds need to extend further back from the boat to make it safe - especially in high winds!
The boat following must not be forced to respond until the jybe is completed. Once jybe is completed the following boat must be given the opportunity to avoid collision. The boats are much more manoeuvrable than they look and those conditions were met. There really isn't a safety issue until rudders start to ventilate and the boats go into slides but if you set up the rules to take that possibility into account there would hardly be any match racing at all.
I agree. That's basically the feeling I had also.
@@giovannigaleotti2623 I am surprised there has been little discussion of this point. Just because a collision was avoided (by some very smart sailing) doesn't mean that the following boat was given the opportunity to avoid a collision. Similarly i am surprised Alinghi didnt get a penalty against INEOS in their prestart incident.
I've been waiting for your take on this! Yes Luna Rossa won the match racing today.
Great analysis Mozzy! Just to add my piece, I think both teams need to be more aware of the implications of rule 16 (ROW boat changing course), and that could be why every protest was given no penalty today. INEOS tended to be short and sharp with their luffs (or turning down to block LR's gybe), essentially handing LR a 'get out of jail free' card every time INEOS changed course. Cheers
interesting. i have seen little discussion on 15 and 16.1 up until now. I would have given LRPP a penalty for not giving Ineos time and opportunity to keep clear as they gybed onto Stbd so I think that could go both ways !
Great analysis on what were maybe 50/50 calls. As a neutral (ETNZ) fan for this race I think there should be clear evidence before a penalty is awarded otherwise the lottery of close penalties might decide a race. As per another comment here, I think a poor mark rounding by Ineos is what cost them this race. These teams are clearly closely matched, keep the exciting racing coming!
I agree with your point on the consistently bad mark rounding by INEOS. I would like to see a graphic comparison of the trail arc of INEOS vs LRPP around the marks. I think INEOS go far to deep and wide at each mark. Whereas, LRPP start their turn a lot earlier and are closer to the mark.
If penalties are not awarded, then great races like this will not happen because it’s not worth it to the following boat. The lesson will be that it’s better to be dull and just go for nothing but VMG. Nobody wants that.
Cheers Mozzy. I can see there being a collision before the end of the LV final unless things get clarified which could be a huge shame for the cup not to mention potentially lethal. These boats don't have crash structures in and haven't to my knowledge been designed for collisions. So regardless of who had priority it could have been a horrific incident if ineos had t-boned luna rossa today as pretty sure the bow at that speed could puncture a crew cockpit.
Thanks, Mozzy! Good to get the analysis!
Absolutely love your channel! I’m learning so much and you break things down so well, really look forward to each video keep up the fantastic work!
When I first saw the replay of that incident before the start I really did think that Ineos had been hard done by and I could understand why Ben was so upset for the rest of the race, so it was good of you to clarify that difference in the rules for this regatta. I couldn't really see much in those other two incidents though and I think that with all the tools they have at their disposal, the umps should be pretty spot on with those more run of the mill type calls. The main thing that we should want out of the umpires is consistency and it seems to me that they're doing a pretty good job of that thus far.
Just imagine if Phil Robertson was helming one of these boats!!
they wouldnt last long !!
The boats would be broken, and maybe someone dead. I am concerned about him and the new T Foils on the f50's.
Well done. Really really close. Unless you’ve raced at those speeds it’s hard to grasp what this really looks like up close on the actual boats. I race at one third to half as fast as these AC boats and those distances you’re analyzing are tiny at my speed. Phenomenal crew work in these two AC boats.
What fabulous explanations! Especially for a novice to more easily follow the races. Thank you
Great analysis, I'm LRPP fan (obviously), but, I think that the 1st protest event is really tricky. I personally didn't see the LRPP mainsail jibing so I thought LRPP had to be penalized, but your analysis highlighted that LRPP have Jibed despite the mainsail wasn't on stbd tack. Dramatic job from the umpires. The 2nd and 3rd event...well It seemed that Ainsle wanted, giving all his efforts, to force a penalty, but maybe no polygon overlapping occurred...IMHO... really tricky situations could have been three penalties or zero. Happened zero...
Watch the "Inside Tack" from GB covering that race. Their analysis for the second "hook" opportunity, by the other trimmer on the INEOS boat in that race, was that it seemed to him as if despite having a clear overlap, Dylan did not feel confident to luff and force the penalty, because the rudder was on the slippery edge of ventilating at the exact moment when they needed to luff, and if it had lost its grip on the water there would have been an uncontrollable round-up and almost certainly a collision.
I thought that their comments about the umpiring were very fair, and they all felt that despite them losing, it had been a truly great race.
One question they answered (of several interesting ones) was whether the umpires have comms from the boats. The answer is that yes, two umpires are assigned to exclusively monitor that channel, one for each boat, so they can give their colleagues some warning of impending close manoeuvres so they can intensify their focus and deliver a more timely verdict. This seems like a good idea, because it decouples the people analysing the rules situation from being influenced by anything said on board (at least until after the decision is made). The umpires have live video from eight cameras, and can simultaneously scroll and scrub through the footage in sync with the data and the high resolution 2D plan view graphics (accurate to the cm)
After bad luck in race 3 and the fact that UK did not propose a gentlemen agreement to wait for LRPP (I do not find it offensive at all as many fellow Italians) I was expecting elbows out full blast. Thank you Mozzy for the great and always unbiased content!!!
I am no expert and not impartial, but Ineos seemed to hunt for penalties rather than race, often agitated and screaming. Luna Rossa seemed more focused on getting better defensive angles, but also chose to just let the wind, sails and foils do their job. Beautiful challenge, beautiful boats, especially LRPP. 😂
You’re right, you’re not an expert. Absolutely, if you are behind in the race you will seek the penalty to get in front. The precise rules exist to allow and promote this.
@@BRMCaptChaosnext time they'll have to seek penalties while sailing on proper course then
@@BRMCaptChaos You forgot, I'm not impartial... and I somehow guess you aren't either. Considering also the Youth Race great victory, it seems LRPP has not only the better looking boat, but also a more collected attitude. Looking forward to other such battles. Enjoy! Cheers
I actually had a same feeling INEOS might have tried their best to hunt potential protests, which may be one of several tactics, and LRPP has been really aggressive to make engagement. Full denial was indeed impressive and this video figured out the data around it. Good to watch.
I must agree Ineos lost that one by seeking penalties instead of just racing.
Thankyou so much for your invaluable input loving mozzysails
Thank you, Tom. Lunar Rossa's speed off the start line gave it the edge on the first windward leg, almost 1.5 knots faster.
Officiating in the America’s Cup is tough as the boats are traveling at 50knts-it's like officiating cricket at 10x the normal speed!
They may have to have instant replays for the Umpires and timing to the millisecond!
First off, I couldn't make the call after re-watching the footage a number of times. Your analysis showed exactly how close it was. Yep, those are some cool teams out there but that's why they're sailing the AC75s. We definitely don't want contact at 40kts in these machines, and I think that last incident was close enough for a valid protest.
Good show and close racing. I believe the umpires got it right. Kiwis know all about whinging poms. When a plane load of poms land at the airport, you can tell they're poms because the plane is still whining even after the motors are turned off.
I’m just here for the racing and my word was that epic today. More of this please!
Great breakdown, thank you. My neighbours probably thought I was insane as I was shouting "up! up!" out in my office in the middle of the day 😂
In real time, two of those felt like penalties to me. On reflection, and with the graphics, I'm down to one. But you do have to trust that the umpires have all this data available in real time and as we saw with the delays to wind, it's not a personal decision. It's data driven.
Either way, agreed that this is fantastic match racing - finally! And far better than I was expecting in these boats.
Looking forward to spending this week with my Italian colleague 😁
fantastic explanation. very close calls.
But in reality...the race was lost on a terrible UK mark rounding. They blew it right there.
Yes they lost around 100 m on that mark and lost the race by about 70 m.
I don't think you can say that, that's not what sport is like. Any mistake before the finale can have a come back. Come backs are one thing that make sport truly great.
@@Achrononmasterthey were closing in on LR fast though.
Assuming everything played out similarly after the rounding I totally agree. Another thing, the commentator, Glen, kept remarking about was GB's open jib during the roundings and was speculating why when that could cost them some speed.
@@Sportsfan1042 True. It's wrong to say they lost the race there. They lost the ability to challenge. Catching LR earlier wouldn't have guaranteed a win, it would have pressured LR to defend, which they now didn't have to do.
When the louis vuitton cup first started I thought the yacht diamonds should be bigger if 50mph plus match racing was the goal.
With the speeds and apparent wind angles the lead boat holds the cards all the way round the race course, so it makes sense that the trailing boat has to be more aggressive. In Race one INEOS lost out massively by sailing conservatively and hoping to capitalise on a mistake by the leader that never happened.
I feel like the lesson learned from today is that if you want a "hook" to stick you basically need to hit the other boat, so I guess that's what we'll see soon
In sailing under the RRS, I believe the situation would fall under rule 15 (I think): when acquiring right of way, a boat shall give time and opportunity (room) to keep clear in a seamanlike manner. I know in match racing umpires expect the sailors to react quicker than in fleet racing, but I would be interested in whether the AC rules include something similar.
@@seanricketts941 yes rule 15 is in the AC rules edition
Rule 15 would not apply here due to INEOS acquiring right of way because of LR's actions (bearing away)
You are right about safety. It appears that the only way to be sure of a right of way decision is to risk actual collision.
With 7 tonne boats at 40knots plus this is very scary.
Spitthil and Kecko (?) - like Burling and Tuke - have been doing this for many years. Today we saw the benefits of that kind of knowledge. UK’s after guard are still beginners in this kind of sailing.
great analysis as usual Tom. We also have to understand that the defense from LR was made even more difficult since their mainsail was not the one they had in mind for that kind of wind
Yeah, a really great race from Luna Rossa!
I think LR tested these rules against Alinghi and ETNZ in the preliminary regattas, it seemed to me they were looking for a penalty on purpose, to understand how much they could push before being penalized.
Spithill loves to push right up to the edge.
Interesting take. The penalties they received against ETNZ in the preliminary final didn't look as close as these incidents. Comparison would be interesting
@@mattblakey The trapezoids overlapped in the preliminary races. Even on Virtual Eye (as you can verify, it's available to all), and the umpires have much better software.
I think so as well, I remember many people saying like "oh they're losing all the regattas for penalties" and I think they were just testing how strict the umpires were and what they could get away with in races that didn't matter to the score
Nice break down mate. Great racing. A tap would be catastrophe. I think it's great racing and finally we are competitive so just happy for that. Jimmy and check will take some beating though!
I don’t know enough to know if any of the incidents should have been penalties. Thankful that you created this video to provide some analysis since the race broadcast itself barely touched them.
Thank you Mozzy for the precious analysis you have accustomed us to.
My 2 cents: YES the prestart would always have been penalty in a dislocant match reace boat and NO it is not penalty in a flying match race boat applying the trapezoid interference rule.
YES this trapezoid rule is definitely really dangerous 'cause (IMHO) of the trapezoid current dimensions, really tight related to these 50 knts speed boats.
I remember that LR team itself has been really surprised couple of times during round robin races, putting a pair of protest call, declared no-penalty for trapezoid non interference.
There is a high risk that one team one of these race push the boat one meter over, too late to avoiding the crash.
As you say, all 3 situations were really close. And the umpires have to make a split second decision. I think their rule of thumb is either to be 100% sure or else not intervene at all
They are not allowed to decide whether to intervene (in the sense I understand the word). They produce a verdict only as the result of a protest. And it might go against the boat filing the protest. But what you say may be substantially true, if by 'intervene' you mean 'announce a penalty'. [Qualifier: I need to check: it may be that if the clearance diamonds intersect they are required to intervene, even if not called on?]
Great racing for sure. Thanks for the analysis. I was wondering how close those overlaps were
Thank you for this, it's very helpful. My position is that if the right of way boat needs to sail dangerously to get a penalty call, then the inevitable eventual collision will be on the umpires and rules writers (which challenger helped draft the rules again‽) for not respecting the right of way boat's duty to avoid a collision.
The thing that surprises me is that a manoeuvring boat doesn't lose rights until the completion of the manoeuvre. It's such a standard part of normal rules and we see the dangerous position the boats are in without it.
Great analysis as always Moz. Cool heads on Luna Rossa will outplay the one hot head on Ineos most days. I think this is Ainsle’s Achilles heal
Awesome racing and great analysis Mozzy. I don’t agree with your assertion that the bow/ stern overlap represents danger on these boats - especially when they are both on Port line astern. The diamonds do a good job of covering the risk in these circumstances. The other issue is how far windward Luna Rosa is on both examples. I am sure the umpires have software which simulates the protesting boat proceeding with their luff. And I am equally sure that the Windward boat would have been gone by the time they intersected Luna Rosa’s stern. Deep down Sir Ben knew he wasn’t high enough and that he was losing his speed differential. Close but no cigar. Another feature to me was just how bloody fast Britannia was downwind and upwind! I cannot wait for the next race!
IN the second hook they had plenty of overlap but Dylan wisely decided not to luff (perhaps because the rudder was one the point of washing out), and Ainslie for once kept his trap shut (he cannot see across the boat)
Man, I keep listening to that moment when ben says "keep sailing fast boys" what a race😊
I didn’t think Ineos got close enough. On the limit but not over it. Helluva race
You’re not biased. You’re very objectively and I’m a kiwi so I’m probably more discerning. Great post thanks Mozzy
Much appreciated
Totally agree. Rules interpretation is making an accident more likely. That being said (as in Rugby) you have to play smart and adjust to how the rules are being played on the day. Think Ben was totally right in the press conference. Probably would have won if INEOS had been less racy. But what a race!!!
Love the rugby comparison
Adjusting to the rules is important but so is staying alive. I think Ineos are getting the balance about right, but I'm not sure the rules have the same respect for human life as the sailors and it might mean whoever is willing to risk it more will get the umpire decisions
The rules in rugby are a joke they hand out cards like candy and are turning it into a pussy game soon it will be like soccer.
@@Stephendenham Rugby is completely different. The refs have discretion. Part of their job is to prevent injuries.
In Am Cup the decisions are data driven and the rules are unambiguous.
The AmCup umpires decide on the truth of accusations that the other boat infringed the rules to improve their position. (The purpose of the rules is to fairly allocate wins).
The prevention of injuries (and damage to the boats) is the job of the teams.
The situations are too dangerous, varied, uncontrolled and nuanced for this to be delegated to non-participants.
It would be a bit like charging Italian earthquake scientists who've made risk assessments with murder, after a major quake the public was not expecting.
!00% correct, after watching three times, I believe you nailed it and you are right about the danger in the calls. We don't want to see an accident at these speeds, sailors can get hurt, says the guy who never wore anything but a team shirt and ran around at 22 to 28 in Formula 40 and every leag
Great comments. I guess the umpires have plenty of data that none of us have and likely made the right calls. A great race, hopefully more to come. Both teams are closely matched and hopefully we get all the way to a 7-6 result. The winners will need all the practice they can get in order to face ETNZ who are still likely in a class of their own.
Spitthil and Kecko (?) - like Burling and Tuke - have been doing this for many years. Today we saw the benefits of that close relationship. Ainsley’s still a beginner in this kind of sailing.
Bravo Mozzi! I believe the pre-start situation was a matter of millimeters and milliseconds, so for you and us there is the "fan effect" and we tend to give the reason to our favorite team. I agree with you, the rules by the computers are kind of too difficult to be implemented on while sailing at 40+ knots of speed. There should be some human interpretation (to evaluate the too close, too risky) rather than to go by only the overlap of the diamonds..... this diamond overlap could really bring the boats too close and pose a risk of injury or damage....
Personally, I think they need to rewrite the entire rulebook for foiling boats. Mainly due to closing speeds and risk to life. In monohulls, cats and tris everything is pretty manageable but at 35+ knots its just too much judge on such fine margins. I don't want to see people get seriously injured beacuse of a OTW rule interpretation and not having enough time to divert course in a safe manner. What are peoples thoughts on this?
Okay Karen. Relax, it's racing. Big boy stuff.
Hahaha new rules if british loose and provoked penalty or whine for it🤷
When you’re riding 53kn with a 75 f. boat, I presume that old rules are quite inapplicable. I guess you’re right.
Have you ever see any F1 race? Or Nascar ???
@jomgelborn no need for name calling. This was a civil, sensible question, that deserves a similar response. If you've got nothing to add, then maybe keep quiet?
Excellent analysis and presentation from an old now cruising only seadog. Keep up the good work
It's a hard one. The difficulty is that the umpires have to make a quick ruling. You did a great a great job explaining everything, but it took quite some time for you to go through everything. Im just not sure? I hope that these two boats dont actually collide, and after today, I think its actually possible?
I really enjoy your reports, thank you.
Exactly he has the luxury of time to analyze everything the umpires dont
I thought GBR had a few instances where a bit more patience would have been advantageous. One Mozzy pointed out. Twice it seemed they were making gains on a particular tack/gybe, with the simulation showing gains if they went to the boundary, and they tacked/gybed away from what appeared to be favored. At least it looked that way to me. As for the penalties, they were all very close, although the one in the prestart looked a bit dangerous. I didn't realize they didn't need to fill the sails to complete the maneuver!
great sailing from both, hope to see more
Great recap of the incidents. The damage these boats can cause at these speeds in a collision would probably put an end to the racing so a get behind the other boat penalty would make sense if the leeward boat overlaps within 5 metres distance without even having to head up.
Man, it was such exciting a race. The teams are really even, winning the LVC will be definitely a really close thing. Who is going to make less mistakes will be the challenger..
The whole trapeze ruling makes for such unique/confusing cases of "overlapping" and thus penalties being given or not.
The resolution of the overlap rule is quite clear. The leeward boat has to clear its wind so either of the boats have to tack. If the windward boat refuses to tack, they are in fact saying there is no overlap. Therefore the leeward boat HAS to tack. If the leeward boat tacks and hits the windward boat it proves it did have an overlap. Otherwise, the leeward boat tacks and clears the windward boat then no penalty.
Weather looks calm for the last two days of LV Cup so as it looks like Ineos is better in lighter air they might be 6 down but will come through in the last two days to become the challenger for the auld mug AC
Sir Ben mentioned that they should probably have just raced their own race rather than going for the penalty 🎉 what a race though. 🎉🎉
Great content, thanks very much 👍
Hi Love the detail. Just one point, the current series is not the Americas cup. That comes later. This is the LV cup series to find challenger for the AC.
This is a quote from the great AC skipper DC. But he is correct the AC term is used to loosely.
But I do enjoy the videos and the work you do.
this video analysis is great and non-biased (from someone who has no bias in the finals.)
from a layman's point of view, the rules need to change - the margin between a penalty and a catastrophic collision seems... marginal - the trapezoids are pretty much on the boats. Imagine foils tangling at those speeds.
What a race!
Only let down was the grey area in the rule.
Good luck Ineos and LR
OMG. I love your unbiased comments! I hope you face TNZ with their new foils. ❤
This was one of the greatest matches to watch. Personally I feel the umpires made the right call. At this level of racing the umpires need to let the boats sail. The outcome needs to be determined on the water and not in the protest room.
Great work by Mozzy on the graphics. This has taken bar karate to a whole new level. While informative I don't this the resolution is good enough to determine the outcome of the race. You can see the weird artifacts on the screen. It is my understanding the umpires have better tools on the water. I trust their judgment on the water.
Ineos will have another crack at them in what hopefully will be more great racing.
Thank you so much for that analysis
Surely the rule dimensions need adjustment
On the pre-start green flag, it also looked like BRI was too far to leeward to justify a penalty. How close do they need to be?
On the 2nd and 3rd, I think you are correct they needed to get a little more overlap before pushing
Regarding the prestart alleged penalty, the British were maneuvering when at the time of the protest, so no penalty is applicable, regardless of trapezoids or other rules
Something that was consistent across all three incidents was that the overlap was made from cleasr astern. Haven't kept up with the rules so unsure of the current application of room and opportunity, but it could have have an impact. I dont think you considered that.
Many comments here discuss the keep clear box, but by the same token in respect to the speeds of the boats perhaps they are given more time to respond.
Certainly in the first incident, GBR gybed off pretty quickly, perhaps prior to ITA being given time to respond which would be an obvious green.
Sono un tifoso di luna rossa e devo ammettere che a parti invertite, non sarei stato contento degli umpires. Luna Rossa, aveva rotto 2 stecche, che avevano bucato la randa, poi sono stati costretti a montare una randa da vento leggero. Una delle regate più bella che abbia mai visto. Ammiro la tua sportività, in fondo sei inglese, ed abbiamo da imparare, sotto quello aspetto.
It looked to me like INEOS had already turned to avoid a possible collision prior to Luna Rossa starting their jibe.
Aren't we truly spoilt to have such a fantastic regatta, umpires are always the weak link in hi pressure sports. I have no idea if they got it right, but gee it's awesome viewing.
feels like professional temperament may win over the fastest boat at this moment.
all ads watched, cheers Mozzy
For what i saw, ineos overlap lrpp from windward, RRS 11 in favour of lrpp. They were nearly parallel to starting line, i.e. ineos windward lrpp downwind, though position of mainsails looks reverse.
Wow, so good to see the data and models that the umpires presumably use plus the (understandabl) slightly different rules used for rights of way. If the decision on the gybe 36 seconds before the start is so hard to call surly Luna Rosa get it as Ineos are claiming a change of rights - as a Brit I don’t say that lightly.
Best race we have seen yet, great video and yes the Italians are 😎 as
I think this is a great analysis of why foilers arent good for match racing. The double edged sword is if the rules are written to keep the boats well apart then strategies would change to the point its not match racing.
The Brits are trying to initiate these penalties. Even Ben Ainslie said they would have been better off sailing their own race and he’s right. It’s clear they have the fastest boat. If they sail clean they will win this race to seven. However Ben Ainslie wants to prove he is “ The smartest guy in the room” and it’s this attitude that is costing them. They have lost a few races in this competition due to their aggression. They’ve incurred unforced boundary penalties which to my mind are inexcusable.
Sail clean, stay out of trouble and the Brits will win easily. Sail your own race!
Get to 7 then blow about being the fastest
i mean, Luna Rossa reached 55 knots today, it's the official speed record for an AC75. You are definetely not faster
@@corrado.08emirates unofficially did 57 knots last edition
@@96POR unofficially
@@96POR Yes, that was the dockside rumour in '21.The thing is, they weren't specifically moding the boat for the upper wind range, it was merely a by-product of having the smallest foils in the fleet & the Auckland course being relatively flat at the upper end.
The best unbiased analysis Mozzy. The umpires are playing the rules for the best TV action. AC is a money generator and this is part of it.
Everyone needs to understand that the sail positions cannot be used as evidence when it comes to port/starboard as the boats move and turn faster than wind. It would seem to me that the turning of the boat creates an apparent wind which keeps the main sail filled through the gybe.
Also, everyone needs to count the number of times that the commentators repeat the phrase "challenger of record Ineos Britannia". It means that Ben Ainslie was there making the rules so stop bitching when they're being applied. 😂
Your final point is cogent and compelling, I reckon. On your second point, I had the same notion, but when I think more about it, the turning of the boat (assuming it pivots approximately about the some point on a line joining the main foils) would have the opposite effect, causing the main (which is aft of the pivot point) to backwind. I think you are probably right that it results from the turn, but my hunch (which I have not had time to consider more carefully) is that the turn is causing a centrifugal force (in the frame of reference of the boat) throwing the heavy skins of the sail to the outside of the turn. The sailors are certainly being thrown that way, sometimes at 1G or more in fast, tight turns.
This gybe turn was quite fast but not very tight radius, but even 0.2G could easily delay the sail filling when the apparent wind has the sail effectively in irons - as I'm sure you will realise but others may not, the apparent wind when these boats are foiling goes around the front of the boat even in a gybe, unless they screw it up -- which Prada presumably did to break several battens eariler the same day -- it seems likely the two skins got blown apart because the boatspeed dropped below the true wind speed.
No doubt today’s racing will impact AC rules committee meetings for years to come.
It just isn't cricket? Ainslie intentions appear to be to win by protest. It's about fair winds and fair sailing.
@@brianhard1841 Give-way penalties have always been a part of the sport. Whether these particular incidents should have been penalties or not will be a source of debate for a long time. Regardless, it was an exciting race and my general opinion is one of “less is more” when it comes to umpire decisions.
@@waveland I agree that usually less is more where it concerns umpire determinations but there were some really close calls today.
Mozzy great as per usual. I agree with craybro.
I think that downwind overlap was called wrong. They got luffed and with the boat speed, the apparent wind angle is going to be wonky.
Could you do the same analysis with the more than many situations on the previous races when LR protests didn't get through? That would be welcome. Thank you!
The LR ETNZ close calls seemed wrong at the time also. Agreed.
Great analysis - been waiting for this. Do you every get access to the umpires' trapezoids and other data such as the overlap line? Clearly, we need to accept their instant call as we would a football ref.
Also this guy has the luxury of time to analyze it the umpires have to make an immediate call.
Hey mozzie, I think your spot on with questioning the calls made, with all the speed that they roast around the course you might think that with technology should be analysed by computers and geometry and take human error out of the equation.personally I think the britz were robbed in those calls! Happy sailing
Legal is one thing but moral is another. That move at the start was like dangerous inside pass on a high speed corner in MotoGP or nascar pit maneuver
Firstly we need umpires who understand the special rules for AC and the nature of the boats and we have to trust their calls. The racing has been closer than anyone anticipated,I think, all at amazing speeds which is beyond the comprehension of the vast majority of sailors. Because of the speeds I think trying to use match racing tactics too hard is a mistake and wonder if INEOS is going to learn from this. That said this is more entertaining than anyone could have hoped for and the boat speeds seem to be so even - awesome stuff.