Breakdown of Key INEOS and Luna Rossa Margins
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
- A tight series has seen Luna Rossa drop crucial points due to unforced errors and reliability. If that was luck for INEOS, then today it ran out. But what are the realities of the teams relative performance?
Recon video and photos credit to Recon Photographer / @America's Cup
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It's the whole package that counts and a failure of any one of those components in that package at this level is showing to be very costly.
Exactly, coming to this from endurance motorsport I can't help but think "to finish first, first you have to finish". Reliability is part of the game, and it isn't luck...
To finish first, first you have to finish. This is about engineering as much as sailing. It's not luck, it's a package. Both amazing teams, great racing.
It seems people lose sight of this in favor of their bias. LR is a great team and I thought that they where going to run away with the win, however, LR are now in significant danger of losing the LVC because INEOS have the advantage in reliability. That's not a subjective statement, that's objective.
Mercedes F1 reliability and fabrication against Ferrari reliability and fabrication. I know which team I'd be backing!
@@WaiWill Indeed. I've been thinking this was a possible vulnerability almost from that first instance in the preliminary series when they gifted a race to TeamNZ. It's a real shame, because they're generally better than that, and it certainly has not been a pattern in former events.
Thank you for your analysis and engagement. As a non-sailor (well, I was lucky enough to go sailing one time in the San Francisco bay... and when they were kind enough to let me have a hand at the till I steered us directly into the dead spot behind Alcatraz and they had to bring out the outboard, lol) this type of data analysis and commentary helps me understand what is going on at such a deeper level.
That experience on the SFBay though was one of the greatest experiences... when the spinnaker came out and ballooned out on the way back to the dock (the wind came back to us right when they finally got the outboard setup... sheepish me saved by kismet) it was quite exhilarating.
As an Italian, I must compliment you for being objective: the two boat were so close in performance, at least with this sea and wind, that there was very little between them.
The difference was made by the general superiority of Team INEOS at the start, over LR, and we saw that, with these boats and with good wind, when you get ahead you almost always win the race.
I still think the KIWIs will eat anyone of these two teams for breakfast, having shown a comfortable superiority in match making over anyone else they met, and a very fast boat, too, but I'd rather see the most competent team fighting as close as possible in the AC, and so far the Brits shown to be superior to the Italian where skill count.
As a Kiwi, providing the ozzy gobshite doesn't win, then I don't care. Sorry LR. However, a week ago, I thought LR had the edge over Ineos but the Brits seem to have polished up to make them evens with LR. It's fantastic racing either way.
If Ineos do make it through (we're British, so we may well still find a way to lose!) we'd have to hope that the impressive improvements they've made since the prelims will make it a competitive match. Because as you say, at that stage ETNZ were a different class. Also Ineos have been enjoying tough racing, which is surely better training than Te Rehutai sailing around on her own. You're probably right, but Ineos has exceeded many people's expectations against LR, so it's not unthinkable that she may surprise the Kiwis too...
I am Italian as well and I fully agree with the compliments to Mozzy Sails as well as the general overview you gave. It's shame that some Italian sailing channels cannot have the bigger picture that you are having. INEOS is fantastic team but this would have ended sooner in favor of LR without the crazy amount of small and big mistakes that they made since the comeback of American Magic. I also want to highlight that while all the other teams improved their performances, LR is the only one that stayed at the same level (which was high) as at the beginning of the series. That's not how you win the AC and they deserve to lose. INEOS is just a different boat compared to 45 days ago. Well done, INEOS!
@@peter_peter_pumpkin_eater He's toned down his attitude, maybe just a bit of age, maybe he's been told not to? Either way he seems much less irritating than he has been in the past!
Your entire coverage and insight has been top notch mate. Cheers...
The Brits have one of the most reliable yachts in this AC compared to the other challengers. Everyone else has had issues going back to the preliminaries. Some people believe that if LR didn't suffer all those failures they'd be ahead in this series. Maybe, maybe not. The fact is we cannot know the events of an alternate timeline. If anything, today proved GB can score points without a DSQ. This is a yacht design competition. Designing a yacht that is not only fast but reliable is part of the game. You may have a rocketship but if your boat keeps breaking down you're going nowhere fast. Another point, _Britannia_ appears to handle a wild sea state better. I was impressed by how she kept on pushing through the waves almost undeterred. That may prove to be an advantage in such days if INEOS faces ETNZ.
A lot of people have sneered at that bustle, calling Britannia a bus and the like. But given the quality of the design team, I suspected that it was designed for tricky seas, as we saw today. And it does seem to bounce them back onto the foils with minimum losses.
@@tullochgorum6323 Yes, exactly what I was thinking watching both races. INEOS designed a yacht specifically for this venue and from the looks if it has succeeded with that design objective.
Great analysis. Also a couple of unforced start errors for IEOS - early entry & boundary penalty
Yup - very difficult to understand from such an experienced team. With a penalty pretty much losing you the race with such closely matched packages, why on earth did they cut things so fine??
A couple of months ago you mentioned the INEOS hull shape with waves, and today their hull shape paid off. Great analysis mate, and looking forward to tomorrow!!
Hi Mossi, I know nothing about sailing but am loving the cup racing. For me it is quite clear that the Italians have a brittle boat, you don’t turn up to the cup with a boat that keeps breaking down As for luck everyone seems to forget the race in light winds GB would of won and the penalty before yesterday race. Any one who thinks it is luck should see our Bens medals…Go GB
Very good summary to date. I admit I had used the word 'Luck" previously until race 9 and 10 clearly showed that INEOS can really dial in the boat and crew and win convincingly. I would also say that that there seems to have been a steady improvement from race to race by the Brits. Look back to the Alinghi series and you can see how far they have improved. Whereas LR seems to have flatlined in their every day development. In other words, they seemed to have peaked. Overall, this has to be the very best Challengers regatta in the history of the AC.
Luna Rosa are a class team but the boat handling errors have lead to losses, not just equipment failures.
Ineos have raced more conservatively but more consistently
Great analysis as always Tom, thank you.
It’s great racing and could go either way. But agree, it’s not luck.
The only part of Ineos that still troubles me is the wide route and time spent getting around the windward mark. LR look compact around the mark and speeds are c.
equal, but the tracks are wildly different. Can we understand why?
Leeward is honours even in my view. LR being unlucky on one wave.
Ineos have risen from earlier weakness to be a real contender. Both, Prada and Ineos are sailing beautifully. Just how will they compare to NZ.
I am sure that Team NZ know. How exiting is this.
My takeaway from the last 2 days ( windy then wavy) has been the need to balance jib and main. Whoever gets this nailed can deal with the dynamic conditions much more easily. I felt that early on all the teams pushed for small jibs to lower overall drag, chasing a "theoretical" better performance. But the rudders are so small in immersion that as soon as they have bobble from sea state you are taking skittish boats into not just knife edge control but scalpel type analogies. LRPP have undoubtedly had issues, but better race craft. IB have better reliability, possibly a better design package, certainly a better team in terms of learning from their mistakes and setting the boat up. Their race craft is more conservative and less flair.
Everything else is "ifs, buts and maybes......"
Cracking series. Whoever wins will give a formidable challenge to NZ, who may be training hard, but are much less battle hardened.
The British boat is a lot quicker down wind. About a third of the way through the first round Rob series, I noticed that the British boat had a lot more power in their rig. You can see that when they go downhill, they just have so much more power and can pull away.
Love this series and the technology on show. As a big F1 fan for years I appreciate how advanced this all is. In looking at this from an F1 perspective then mechanical issues are just a part of the game. LR might have cut corners or taken decisions that have given them speed but at the risk of unreliability. Could be they gambled on lighter wind conditions and the recent weather has caused them issues. Old adage is “to finish first, first you have to finish”. My sense is that Brittania looks like it’s more difficult to handle but with bigger rewards if they get it right.
@mozzy I agree, GB won both starts today and managed the conditions really well. Totally deserved wins. I must say I had expected more agression from LR overall, esp. in starts, based in previous cups, but somehow that hasn't come about. Maybe there's less confidence / more risk aversion? But they have to go hard now, expect some fireworks!! Very exciting for sure.
Their boat is proving a bit fragile. Maybe they have to nurse her in the wilder conditions?
Don't count out Jimmy Spithill, the comeback kid!
Great stuff. Well explained. Incredible deep dive knowledge. I very much appreciate your content. Thanks for your videos.
My pleasure!
Thx for another interesting analysis
Prada Challenge V America One LV cup (5-4) in 2000 was this century
yeah, good shout that, just enjoyed 10 minutes watching highlights
That was an awesome series.
The camber on Ineos main, I actually agree with considering the sea state where you need to balance the acceleration vs top speed
The racing has been exciting. Thanks for the great insights
One Australia had a wicked fast boat built to the limit...we know why they didn't win the Cup!
Great stuff! Hoping for a daily rundown once we’re in the cup 🤞
Thanks for these great videos Mozzy. Really appreciate your insights.
Go Ineos Brittania! Always been a admirer of Sir Ben. 👍😎🇦🇺💪 I had a great feeling about their chances before it started when I heard they were going in a different direction with the foils than the other teams.
Mozzy complete newb here, but the design of the hulls, Luna is much more sculptured with rolling curves.. what my newb eye sees you can correct me if I am totally off base but INEOS has midship and on the front cutouts in the design that mimic the cant of the main sail and spinnaker. Do you think because of the sailing height of these foiled yachts that that scoop cutout would be catching extra wind and adding a slight speed boost in higher winds? Or is my theory rubbish? Keep up the great work.. we appreciate your efforts!
That's an Aire bus wing on the Silver bullet 😊 hence the Lunar Rose 🌹 Love you Mozzy Sail's 🌎 we don't know weather to barbeque you on the sun Witt joy, oar drown you at Time's 🌠 kinda lik'a Storm 🐳
Wow, enjoyed your thoughts & analysis for the last couple of years (since I came across your brilliant channel at the last ac) - regarding foil design, the, prototyping, design advantages - hydro & aerodynamics and all :-) - offcause including your talks w the boys.
- thought that now it was back to ‘’only’’ enjoy the racing & official channel/ broadcasting.
- but these racing rapports & analysis of the different teams, the boats & rigs incl tactics an all is on pair with the former :-)
As a Kiwi you've done a lot for my enjoyment of the sport. Like a lot of Kiwi's I don't think I feel much ownership of the defence after the location was moved from NZ to Barcelona.
Go Ineos!
I think it was bad of them to move it away from NZ. I hope it returns to the home nations of the winners who ever it is.
As a Kiwi who has lived in the UK for 28 years - I disagree.
I'd rather win in Barcelona than lose in Auckland.
I remember the 2003 fiasco - that wasn't a loss, it was a total collapse. ETNZ is a commercial team, it lives or dies on the financials & it has done what it needs to do to survive. The NZ Government's offer to ETNZ was purely not to charge them for civil servants' time if the regatta was held in Auckland.
NZ couldn't afford nor did it deserve to host this regatta.
Grant Dalton and ETNZ and their sponsors greed. That's the reason the defence of the AC is not in NZ. I feel sorry for the NZ public.
@@Penguinracer I don't agree, Peter Blake would have made it work in NZ and he would have made sure we won.
They both look good right now. Will be interesting to see how the winner goes against the Kiwis.
I think the double tunnel on INEOS adds overall lift so there is less induced drag on the foils.
To finish first, first you must finish.
I enjoy your posts. Thank you.
You need to address the “automático” twice having been said and actioned/ turn off on Luna Rossa silver bullet. I doubt there’s any chance a human alone can manage those bare aways in such a systematic manner. I remember you quoting Terry on it
Remember it was 3-3 in the America’s Cup proper last time so close racing is pretty normal at this stage.
I Must say Mozzy I did write off Britannia Well done 👍
Fantastic analysis, as ever, Mozzy. Thank you. Am I right in thinking that where the data shows one boat faster, it doesn't reveal if this comes from putting the boat in a windier part of the course, rather than from a naturally faster boat?
All Jimmys luck ( and then some) was used up in SF a few years ago
And of course, during the comeback they brought Ben along as their tactician...
Great vid as always!!!
Been very impressed with Britannia’s reliability, which like it or not is a massive part of the game.
Both teams have won 4 races each fairly. Largely due to making fewer mistakes than the other.
Ineos are 2 ahead thanks to reliability. Therefore I think to even suggest luck is why Ineos are ahead is totally unfounded.
They are (to this date) the more rounded team.
Very true. Good engineering and fabrication and maintenance has nothing to do with luck!
as a new zealander I am slightly worried about Ineos. We might have to pull something out of the bag to win - they appear faster down wind, and Sir Ben is, I think, a better match racer.
2000 LV Prada vs America One was close - won 5-4 by LR.
Great insights! Thanks.
Can Allen deliver to Fiji! 😂
Go Ben and the Team!
I dont get why LR, in 2nd race today in leg 5, when they were only about 50m behind and faster, tacked to go immediately in the dirty air of Ineos.
Mozzy your insights are just brilliant, have you any news on Alingi Red bull who capsize 2days ago , ?
luck, skill, chance...sounds like sailboat racing
In order to win, you first must finish
Prada isn’t covering enough. You cannot let the other boat get a whole different pressure than you.
But Ineos Britannia was basically leading early on or t was very close. So Ineos Britannia was in a position to cover or a loose cover.
" gifted some points to Ineos "??? Lunar Rossa cannot handle such wind. 'Lunar Rossa errors ', why???? Not at this time of the race. Lunar Rossa had lost its marbles
Got to win the start's and not lose the rudder
Right now you want IENOS to challenge ETNZ, imagine LR is challenger and breaks...match over in the final
But ineos with big bustle in 8 knots breeze and waves yacht not getting pushed up like in 19 knots, moreover getting sucked on water with less power?
Cliché alert 🚨: To finish first you must first finish.
We’ll never know know where we’d be now if Luna Rossa didn’t keep having equipment failures
Luna Rossa is looking very tatty. The rig is in failure and has been pushed to the very limits to keep pace with the Brits. I see Taihoro has some brand new sails.
The Italians seem to have better helmsmen
Looking at the data in both races, GB had more wind both upwind and downwind, this surprised me as I expected the numbers to be very similar.
Is this due to wash or were their prayers to the wind gods answered?
Just due to sensor calibration error, I wouldn't pay much attention to it
yeah, TWS data looks a bit dodgy on ERDB, which makes me think how reliable other true wind-related data (TWA, TWS)….
It's coming home
bro's been waiting for the delivery since 2020 💀
@@francesco5254. Different weather conditions in the next day or 2. But yes to win 3 in a row is a tall order, but doable.
No such thing as luck. The universe is a closed system. If you could rewind time then it would play out exactly the same.
it is rather predictable I feel and luck
Not a fan of when the ugly boat wins
Race 7 LR foil canting was for wheigt balancing.... why should tacking LR there?
listen to the onboard comes, Bruni called for a tack, dropped board, it only went part way, and then be cancelled the gybe to sort the board out
two wins without racing is LUCKY
Or just bad reliability on LRs part. Getting a race abandoned with a 800m lead is also unlucky...
Building a boat that didn't break doesn't happen by luck. Those 2 wins were earned just as much as the others, they were just earned by the design and build team before the boats hit the water. AC is as much a design competition as a sailing race, if not more so. What is lucky is having a race cancelled because the wind died while you were behind. I'm not complaining, it's all part of the game and that's part of why AC is such a great spectacle.
Luck plays a part. But Americas cup is many components. Ineos Britannia totally deserve their 6 wins.
Stop excusing us for being good
Pity American Magic got taken out in a stream of bad luck. Luna Rossa isn't a real contender. I think they will be eliminated soon. My ideal final would've been USA against NZ but it wasn't to be.
love your videos