Deeper dive on river power jam And/or how to best utilize GTOW to study river OOP play considering the game tree explodes so much that we no longer have aggregated reports to work with
Yea same. I did it a few weeks ago on a Day 2 of a 2k players field MTT with AQo on a very similar board shown in the example of this video and got called by 2nd pair (a bit shocking to me, but okay). Luckily I rivered the straight to stay in. Then we discussed my 2x overbet jam and I tried explaining that I would make the same shove there with hands like QQ/KK, which he didn't believe. Shows that a lot of players simply don't believe you when you make these polarized overbets, even on Day 2's in massive fields. Got the recognition for the jam from a different player at the table, so I knew he knew about this gto spot as well, keeping a close eye on him afterwards. They are fun spots, but you gotta have the figurative balls to pull the 200% overbet trigger with a semi-bluff in spots like that in live tournaments
Just curious how come you are so certain that mtt sims are applicable to cash games. Antes are present and rake is a factor. Those are both significant considerations. Aren't they significant enough to warrant different strategies ? Why don't you just use cash game sims ?
Many fundamental concepts apply to both formats. Matt was a cash specialist before migrating to MTTs, so he's got some insight about what strategies seem to carry over.
Poker strategies are mostly determined by stack sizes/depth, and the amount of chips in the pot. The inclusion of rake and antes do change the game/strategy but it’s mostly preflop. Once the preflop ranges change however slightly, then the postflop concepts/strategies stay the same or very very similar. Meaning that this spot is almost the same in MTTs and Cash games; the difference being the preflop ranges. You can also see this phenomenon in HU cash, where the starting preflop ranges are very wide, but the more bets go in and the bigger the pot gets, the more similar the strategy becomes whether it’s 6max cash, or 8h MTTs (provided that they’re all the same stack sizes, in this case 100bbs).
if you can recognize that your opponent arrived to the river with a capped range it's very important to not limit yourself to betting pot or less just to try and get called more often because you are just making life easy for them that way and letting them off the hook
Yes, in this video, Matt only allowed the solver to use one size. However, in our pre-solved solutions, even when multiple bet sizes are available, the solver still prefers jamming in this spot. You can check for yourself in GTO Wizard!
I am sure I'm not alone here, but i play with people who don't ever fold a flush draw if it's a bad price or not. So, my question then becomes, is it right to OOP the flop if they are calling with any draw?
if they never fold a flush draw for any price and flush draws are significant enough part of the range, forget about balance and just make your range value only in those spots and get money in while you are ahead
Even if Villain never folds his flush draws, I think you can still jam. You're not jamming total air. The worst hands you jam (AQ, KQ, A9) are doing ok if Villain calls with his K6 or 54 flush draws. At worst, you have about 50% equity, and may even be a slight favorite.
i try to do same parameters than u did , in cash game 50NL , i don t see overbet on the strategy .Do you have any clue why i dont see overbet with same flop and same position? i just see mixing strategy between 80%,50% and 33% pot
Very good video. On the 3rd example, what about people that likes to slowplay a lot?. And, given that now a days a lot of players love to "protect their ranges", you can see on the river hands that should not be there, like trips, full houses, TPTK, etc. So, if villain has not a capped range and we are shoving like 10x pot, are we valuebeting ourself out of the window, with this meta-game?. Or maybe the question could be: how do we win money against unbalanced players that are slowplaying a lot (on the 3rd example), with our "balanced" x10 all in shove?.
I think in the 3rd example specifically, it’s very very hard for villain to be slow playing anything when they check to you 3 times and you’ve already checked back twice. If they flop a set or 2 pair, they’re not going to let it check down, they likely bet turn. If I’m OOP and let a hand check all the way down it’s almost always bc I have weak value like 3rd or 4th pair. Even 2nd pair you’ll probably bet river with (maybe turn) if turn/river is a blank, bc at lower stakes a lot of people are pretty capped when action goes XX/XX
GTO shouldn't be taken as a 100% implementable strategy. This strategy is rare enough that even if you tried to implement in a game, it'd take you tens, if not hundreds of hours to find yourself at this exact opportunity. What GTO has to offer here is showing that something as crazy as 10x pot jams can be profitable, given the right circumstances. If your exact circumstances is a slow-playing field that would showdown a full-house on the river, this strategy obviously wouldn't do you very good, specially with the bluff-portion of your range. But if you study what makes this strategy viable even against GTO itself, you can certainly find good enough conditions to make this play exploitatively in similar spots, against certain opponents in certain scenarios. Do not blindly follow GTO; instead, learn how to think a bit like GTO does, and find exploitative scenarios to implement these new, different strategies.
@@Kawaii_Maul great answer. To piggy back off this, @deceroaheroechess you shouldn’t try to think of playing against one very specific player type when studying GTO concepts, bc you’re mentally limiting yourself from understanding the strategy as a whole. Obviously if you’re playing some extremely trappy player, you can make an in-game adjustment to their deviation from equilibrium, but you need to understand the concepts of game theory to have a clear grasp of when and how to exploit them. GTO is the baseline we use to inform our exploits. You’re most likely not going to jam 10x pot OTR in a SRP where flop and turn go x/x, x/x lol. But understanding the basic heuristic of “the OOP player is very capped in this spot when flop + turn checked through, and they check to us again on the river” is the important thing, bc now you can implement the concept in-game, see how players react to it, and then adjust the strat accordingly. If they station you with any pair, don’t bluff, bet your value hands. If they always fold, even to just 1x pot, you’re printing by bluffing pretty much everything. Range construction obviously very important to implementing strats as well, but I don’t think I’m telling you anything you don’t already know there : )
Thank you all for the answers. The point i tried to make, in a poor way, was that i find a lot of slowplaying now a days; a lot of passive play with decent and strong hands, on a variety of boards. And this way of playing has to do a lot, with the (now 1000s) videos that are available on youtube (let alone poker-school sites), that encourages people to "defend" their ranges. Especially on already nitty fields like Rush and Cash on GGPoker. That makes way harder to go crazy IP on many spots were we could go nuts against a, what should be in theory, very capped range on many boards.
Obviously those players are not playing GTO, so don't you. The exploit against such players is that if you have a range advantage but do not have the nut advantage, you prefer small bets for value and bluffs. You also do this with your nut hands because you will be raised by opponents slow play hands, so you do not have to worry to not get enough value with nut hands playing small bets. Only if you block the nuts substantially you play big bets.
Then why do I get range folds when I minclick these donkey overbets? Hmm. Weird. Oh maybe because you have never seen that? Yeah. That. OH LOOK WHO'S BLUFF CATCHING NOW.
@@cheat2win816 I liked your comment about liking your own comment. I’ll probably like my own comment about liking your comment about liking your first comment.
@@modestomouso1234I liked your comment and the other guy’s comment, the one that states he liked his own comment, so think I’m allowed to like my own comment
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Combinatorics please?
Multiway theory, especially OOP pots
Deeper dive on river power jam
And/or how to best utilize GTOW to study river OOP play considering the game tree explodes so much that we no longer have aggregated reports to work with
Turn Donk bets
overbet
When to check on the flop?
Wow I already do the OOP jam with a range very similar to what is shown.....glad to get confirmation....
Yea same. I did it a few weeks ago on a Day 2 of a 2k players field MTT with AQo on a very similar board shown in the example of this video and got called by 2nd pair (a bit shocking to me, but okay). Luckily I rivered the straight to stay in. Then we discussed my 2x overbet jam and I tried explaining that I would make the same shove there with hands like QQ/KK, which he didn't believe. Shows that a lot of players simply don't believe you when you make these polarized overbets, even on Day 2's in massive fields. Got the recognition for the jam from a different player at the table, so I knew he knew about this gto spot as well, keeping a close eye on him afterwards. They are fun spots, but you gotta have the figurative balls to pull the 200% overbet trigger with a semi-bluff in spots like that in live tournaments
I find the first two very useful but No .3 river Jam I do'nt think I will ever be in that spot.Nice video.
You’d be surprised, huge river jams like this come up way more often in GTO than most people think!
shout out gto wiz for killing the great game!
Just curious how come you are so certain that mtt sims are applicable to cash games.
Antes are present and rake is a factor. Those are both significant considerations. Aren't they significant enough to warrant different strategies ?
Why don't you just use cash game sims ?
Many fundamental concepts apply to both formats. Matt was a cash specialist before migrating to MTTs, so he's got some insight about what strategies seem to carry over.
Poker strategies are mostly determined by stack sizes/depth, and the amount of chips in the pot. The inclusion of rake and antes do change the game/strategy but it’s mostly preflop. Once the preflop ranges change however slightly, then the postflop concepts/strategies stay the same or very very similar. Meaning that this spot is almost the same in MTTs and Cash games; the difference being the preflop ranges.
You can also see this phenomenon in HU cash, where the starting preflop ranges are very wide, but the more bets go in and the bigger the pot gets, the more similar the strategy becomes whether it’s 6max cash, or 8h MTTs (provided that they’re all the same stack sizes, in this case 100bbs).
why are we giving hyper flop and power river jam away - very OP if you want to up aggression factor and build non-std strat
Don’t be a gatekeeper Joe lol
Joey the wet blanket Ingram back at it again.
Last one is too GTO for human I think
i agree, makes me not wanna waste any time on this.
not really, if u play some gtow u can find this spot rarely and it feel relatively intuitive to jam huge
if you can recognize that your opponent arrived to the river with a capped range it's very important to not limit yourself to betting pot or less just to try and get called more often because you are just making life easy for them that way and letting them off the hook
But it’s gonna look so cool if we actually do the pppppP on the table🤩🤩🤩
I'm far from a solver expert but can you tell me if you only gave one size bet for the 1st example-The overbet jam?
Yes, in this video, Matt only allowed the solver to use one size. However, in our pre-solved solutions, even when multiple bet sizes are available, the solver still prefers jamming in this spot. You can check for yourself in GTO Wizard!
I am sure I'm not alone here, but i play with people who don't ever fold a flush draw if it's a bad price or not. So, my question then becomes, is it right to OOP the flop if they are calling with any draw?
Probably not, I increase a lot my profits when I was playing micros just by playing it safe. No need for the big plays when there is no fold equity.
Thats the problem, the folds are coming from a GTO computer, you arent going to get the amount of folds from a human.
if they never fold a flush draw for any price and flush draws are significant enough part of the range, forget about balance and just make your range value only in those spots and get money in while you are ahead
Even if Villain never folds his flush draws, I think you can still jam. You're not jamming total air. The worst hands you jam (AQ, KQ, A9) are doing ok if Villain calls with his K6 or 54 flush draws. At worst, you have about 50% equity, and may even be a slight favorite.
It is if you're value betting!
i try to do same parameters than u did , in cash game 50NL , i don t see overbet on the strategy .Do you have any clue why i dont see overbet with same flop and same position?
i just see mixing strategy between 80%,50% and 33% pot
@@bd7011 hmmm, that is odd. Possibly due to rake considerations in lower stake online cash games, where rake can be pretty high?
so cool
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Nooo, don't give out the secrets :D
Very good video. On the 3rd example, what about people that likes to slowplay a lot?. And, given that now a days a lot of players love to "protect their ranges", you can see on the river hands that should not be there, like trips, full houses, TPTK, etc. So, if villain has not a capped range and we are shoving like 10x pot, are we valuebeting ourself out of the window, with this meta-game?.
Or maybe the question could be: how do we win money against unbalanced players that are slowplaying a lot (on the 3rd example), with our "balanced" x10 all in shove?.
I think in the 3rd example specifically, it’s very very hard for villain to be slow playing anything when they check to you 3 times and you’ve already checked back twice. If they flop a set or 2 pair, they’re not going to let it check down, they likely bet turn. If I’m OOP and let a hand check all the way down it’s almost always bc I have weak value like 3rd or 4th pair. Even 2nd pair you’ll probably bet river with (maybe turn) if turn/river is a blank, bc at lower stakes a lot of people are pretty capped when action goes XX/XX
GTO shouldn't be taken as a 100% implementable strategy. This strategy is rare enough that even if you tried to implement in a game, it'd take you tens, if not hundreds of hours to find yourself at this exact opportunity.
What GTO has to offer here is showing that something as crazy as 10x pot jams can be profitable, given the right circumstances. If your exact circumstances is a slow-playing field that would showdown a full-house on the river, this strategy obviously wouldn't do you very good, specially with the bluff-portion of your range.
But if you study what makes this strategy viable even against GTO itself, you can certainly find good enough conditions to make this play exploitatively in similar spots, against certain opponents in certain scenarios. Do not blindly follow GTO; instead, learn how to think a bit like GTO does, and find exploitative scenarios to implement these new, different strategies.
@@Kawaii_Maul great answer. To piggy back off this, @deceroaheroechess you shouldn’t try to think of playing against one very specific player type when studying GTO concepts, bc you’re mentally limiting yourself from understanding the strategy as a whole. Obviously if you’re playing some extremely trappy player, you can make an in-game adjustment to their deviation from equilibrium, but you need to understand the concepts of game theory to have a clear grasp of when and how to exploit them. GTO is the baseline we use to inform our exploits.
You’re most likely not going to jam 10x pot OTR in a SRP where flop and turn go x/x, x/x lol. But understanding the basic heuristic of “the OOP player is very capped in this spot when flop + turn checked through, and they check to us again on the river” is the important thing, bc now you can implement the concept in-game, see how players react to it, and then adjust the strat accordingly. If they station you with any pair, don’t bluff, bet your value hands. If they always fold, even to just 1x pot, you’re printing by bluffing pretty much everything.
Range construction obviously very important to implementing strats as well, but I don’t think I’m telling you anything you don’t already know there : )
Thank you all for the answers.
The point i tried to make, in a poor way, was that i find a lot of slowplaying now a days; a lot of passive play with decent and strong hands, on a variety of boards. And this way of playing has to do a lot, with the (now 1000s) videos that are available on youtube (let alone poker-school sites), that encourages people to "defend" their ranges. Especially on already nitty fields like Rush and Cash on GGPoker. That makes way harder to go crazy IP on many spots were we could go nuts against a, what should be in theory, very capped range on many boards.
Obviously those players are not playing GTO, so don't you. The exploit against such players is that if you have a range advantage but do not have the nut advantage, you prefer small bets for value and bluffs. You also do this with your nut hands because you will be raised by opponents slow play hands, so you do not have to worry to not get enough value with nut hands playing small bets. Only if you block the nuts substantially you play big bets.
lets gooo
Then why do I get range folds when I minclick these donkey overbets? Hmm. Weird. Oh maybe because you have never seen that? Yeah. That. OH LOOK WHO'S BLUFF CATCHING NOW.
Ah you need to min raise all in bets, that's what I'm missing silly me.
Once again I have nothing intelligent to add😮
I liked my own comment above
@@cheat2win816 I liked your comment about liking your own comment. I’ll probably like my own comment about liking your comment about liking your first comment.
@@modestomouso1234I liked your comment and the other guy’s comment, the one that states he liked his own comment, so think I’m allowed to like my own comment